Author Topic: Questions about the missing bodies  (Read 10975 times)

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Offline lexi4

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Questions about the missing bodies
« on: November 11, 2006, 11:03:30 PM »
Can someone please point me to the first official documentation/report that discusses the two missing bodies? All I have in Yurovsky's 1934 statement in which he says that they took two bodies to burn them. If I recall, he said that those two bodies were supposed to have been Alexei and Alexandra but that it turned out that it was one of the maids instead. That was his explanation for why the two bodies were not buried with the others. Is there anything else?
Thank you,
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 01:26:02 AM »
Can someone please point me to the first official documentation/report that discusses the two missing bodies? All I have in Yurovsky's 1934 statement in which he says that they took two bodies to burn them. If I recall, he said that those two bodies were supposed to have been Alexei and Alexandra but that it turned out that it was one of the maids instead. That was his explanation for why the two bodies were not buried with the others. Is there anything else?
Thank you,
Lexi

There's actually a great deal, especially if you're trying to figure out where the children are. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to type everything in tonight - and Yurovsky made three statements, I believe. More tomorrow, good night. Lexi.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 07:55:59 AM »
Can someone please point me to the first official documentation/report that discusses the two missing bodies? All I have in Yurovsky's 1934 statement in which he says that they took two bodies to burn them. If I recall, he said that those two bodies were supposed to have been Alexei and Alexandra but that it turned out that it was one of the maids instead. That was his explanation for why the two bodies were not buried with the others. Is there anything else?
Thank you,
Lexi

There's actually a great deal, especially if you're trying to figure out where the children are. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to type everything in tonight - and Yurovsky made three statements, I believe. More tomorrow, good night. Lexi.

Thank you Lisa. I am not trying to find the bodies. Just trying to establish who, what, when where and why.  :) I have Yurovsky's two statements, the 1920 and 1934 statements. I also have the book The Last of of the Tragedy which has a lot of source material in it. I can't find (so far) anything about it from Moscow or in any kind of note from Yurovsky. Yurovsky never says that the bodies were missing and none of the other testimonies from those that were involved in the execution never mention it either. So how did the idea that the bodies were "missing" first come about?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 10:11:08 AM »
I suggest looking at all of Yurovsky's statements - there were 3 in all - and "mining" from there. I've already found significant references and I'm just on one Note.

You mention you are not interested in finding the missing ones. That is my only interest in Yurovsky at this point - what he can tell me about the 2 children - so, with respect, everything I have to say about the Notes at the moment will be posted on the "to Russia with love" thread.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 12:04:36 PM by LisaDavidson »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2006, 01:35:42 PM »
I suggest looking at all of Yurovsky's statements - there were 3 in all - and "mining" from there. I've already found significant references and I'm just on one Note.

You mention you are not interested in finding the missing ones. That is my only interest in Yurovsky at this point - what he can tell me about the 2 children - so, with respect, everything I have to say about the Notes at the moment will be posted on the "to Russia with love" thread.
Thank you Lisa. What I meant was that I am not asking these questions for any other reason than my own personal knoweldge. I did not want to give the impression that I was trying to distrupt any other research anyone else was doing. I am trying to be careful so that none of my comments are taken wrong.  :)
By three references, are you referring to Yurovsky's unpublished memoirs? Most of the information I've found from his unpublished memoirs are from one book. Is there another source?
I am just trying to see if Moscow was ever acknowledge "missing bodies." It seems Yurovsky made it clear that all were killed, just not all buried in the same place. I am trying to understand how the rumors regarding sightings of the IF circulated around Perm and what led to the search for the two children.
Thank you,
Lexi
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 01:04:58 PM by Forum Admin »
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2006, 03:20:16 PM »
I suggest looking at all of Yurovsky's statements - there were 3 in all - and "mining" from there. I've already found significant references and I'm just on one Note.

You mention you are not interested in finding the missing ones. That is my only interest in Yurovsky at this point - what he can tell me about the 2 children - so, with respect, everything I have to say about the Notes at the moment will be posted on the "to Russia with love" thread.
Thank you Lisa. What I meant was that I am not asking these questions for any other reason than my own personal knoweldge. I did not want to give the impression that I was trying to distrupt any other research anyone else was doing. I am trying to be careful so that none of my comments are taken wrong.  :)
By three references, are you referring to Yurovsky's unpublished memoirs? Most of the information I've found from his unpublished memoirs are from the book FOTR. Is there another source?
I am just trying to see if Moscow was ever acknowledge "missing bodies." It seems Yurovsky made it clear that all were killed, just not all buried in the same place. I am trying to understand how the rumors regarding sightings of the IF circulated around Perm and what led to the search for the two children.
Thank you,
Lexi

Thanks for the additional information.

AFAIK, the Perm sightings were of the Empress and all her daughters, and the sources can nearly all be traced back to the Bolsheviks. So, my conclusion about these is that it was deliberate misinformation.

If by Moscow you mean the leadership of the country under the Bolsheviks, to my knowledge, they never officially took responsibility for murdering anyone except the tsar. I know of no acknowledgement of any graves. Their official position was that they appeared to have endorsed Sokolov in his conclusion that all the bodies were destroyed.

The Yurovsky Note was never published by the Bolsheviks, it was part of their secret archives, so the whole issue of the two missing children only came to be discussed in the 1990's, when the 9 body grave was excavated.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2006, 04:54:54 PM »
I suggest looking at all of Yurovsky's statements - there were 3 in all - and "mining" from there. I've already found significant references and I'm just on one Note.

You mention you are not interested in finding the missing ones. That is my only interest in Yurovsky at this point - what he can tell me about the 2 children - so, with respect, everything I have to say about the Notes at the moment will be posted on the "to Russia with love" thread.
Thank you Lisa. What I meant was that I am not asking these questions for any other reason than my own personal knoweldge. I did not want to give the impression that I was trying to distrupt any other research anyone else was doing. I am trying to be careful so that none of my comments are taken wrong.  :)
By three references, are you referring to Yurovsky's unpublished memoirs? Most of the information I've found from his unpublished memoirs are from the book FOTR. Is there another source?
I am just trying to see if Moscow was ever acknowledge "missing bodies." It seems Yurovsky made it clear that all were killed, just not all buried in the same place. I am trying to understand how the rumors regarding sightings of the IF circulated around Perm and what led to the search for the two children.
Thank you,
Lexi

Thanks for the additional information.

AFAIK, the Perm sightings were of the Empress and all her daughters, and the sources can nearly all be traced back to the Bolsheviks. So, my conclusion about these is that it was deliberate misinformation.

If by Moscow you mean the leadership of the country under the Bolsheviks, to my knowledge, they never officially took responsibility for murdering anyone except the tsar. I know of no acknowledgement of any graves. Their official position was that they appeared to have endorsed Sokolov in his conclusion that all the bodies were destroyed.

The Yurovsky Note was never published by the Bolsheviks, it was part of their secret archives, so the whole issue of the two missing children only came to be discussed in the 1990's, when the 9 body grave was excavated.

Thank you. That is exactly the type of information that I was looking for.  :)
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 05:05:30 PM »
I'm glad to hear that. While we're at it, does anyone know where all the Notes are published? I know we have one on the APTM.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2006, 05:21:08 PM »
I'm glad to hear that. While we're at it, does anyone know where all the Notes are published? I know we have one on the APTM.
I was wondering the same thing. All I have from the memoirs are from that one book. I didn't know there was one of them on the forum other than the 1920 note?
I have read the 1920 and the 1934 notes. But nothing of the unpublished memoirs. I sure would like to.
Lexi
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 01:05:54 PM by Forum Admin »
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2006, 06:03:26 PM »
I'm glad to hear that. While we're at it, does anyone know where all the Notes are published? I know we have one on the APTM.

Yurovsky's 1934 account of the murders is here:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html

His 1920 note on the execution is on page 351 (hardcover edition) of Fall of the Romanovs.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
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Offline lexi4

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2006, 07:30:14 PM »
I'm glad to hear that. While we're at it, does anyone know where all the Notes are published? I know we have one on the APTM.

Yurovsky's 1934 account of the murders is here:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html

His 1920 note on the execution is on page 351 (hardcover edition) of Fall of the Romanovs.


Thank you Saruska,
I am looking for his unpublished memoirs, which are referred to in FOTR.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 08:36:29 PM »
As far as I know, Yurovsky's unpublished memoirs are still unpublished, except for brief references or extracts in King & Wilson.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 09:56:31 PM »
As far as I know, Yurovsky's unpublished memoirs are still unpublished ...

To be more correct the series of Yurovski notes remain unpublished in the English language.

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 10:56:36 AM »
There is a  copy of the 1934 tetimony of Yurovsky on AP and I have his 1920 testimony  on my site:

http://agrbear.hyperboards.com/index.php?action=view_topic&topic_id=61

I had placed them on one of the threads on AP but I don't recall which one.


The one testimony kept  by his son reads like one of the testimonies released and has corrections in what is believed Yurovsky's handwriting.  This one, however,  tells us that  a "single" body, NOT TWO,  was burn and buried near the mass grave.  I believe,  this is also, where the note of the whereabouts of the mass grave was found.  [Remember I'm not near my books so please correct me if this isn't where the note of the whereabout was found  :) ]

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« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 11:03:34 AM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Questions about the missing bodies
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2006, 11:31:04 AM »


...[in part]....
AFAIK, the Perm sightings were of the Empress and all her daughters, and the sources can nearly all be traced back to the Bolsheviks. So, my conclusion about these is that it was deliberate misinformation.

....


This isn't quite accurate.

There were over 40 testimonies taken from different people who believed they saw one or more members of  Nicholas II's family. 

It is the belief of many  that the Perm stories were fabricated by the Bolsheviks but this doesn't mean they were.   In fact, the investigator,  who was in charge of collecting these testimonies, was executecd by  the Bolshviks who found him  weeks after Ekaterinburg fell.  No one knows everything he had collected.  Whatever it was, it has been  lost.   Sokolov report manages to slide past these testimonies as do many here on AP.   To add to this,  the Bolsheviks sent agents to Sokolov's apartment in Paris, where he was living for a time,  and stole a great deal of the Perm  testimonies which meant they have been lost forever.   

On a very old AP  thread I have given the list of some of these testimonies found in the Harvard collection and can be read.

Several testimonies  talk  about GD Anastasia and Alexei who were said to have been seen getting into carriage somewhere near Perm. 

It must also be noted that it was the Bolsheviks who announced that Empress Alexandra, her four daughters and Alexei had been sent away from Ekaterinubrg to prevent them from being captured by the Whites so many people at that time had assumed this was to prevent the living IF  from being used as pons against Bolshseviks  by the Whites.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 11:55:02 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152