Author Topic: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation  (Read 11682 times)

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Offline Naslednik

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2009, 02:24:48 PM »
Thank you Helen -- the Dan Morrill article is the one I had read.  He takes the position that there were many influences leading to the creation of the Hague, but does not doubt the sincerity of Nicholas' original intent.  Too bad that people can't get these articles easily unless they have access thru a school.

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2009, 08:32:34 AM »
For those non German speaking posters:  "All those are cliches! Which fur nonsense! "  That is a literal translation of the margin scribblings.

I would have translated it to - "All those words - for nothing (or nonsense)."

Obviously Nicholas II was still trying to work for peace but the Kaiser now had the bit in his mouth and as usual was disregarding anything that didn't suit him.

Thank you bkohatl for starting such an interesting topic.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 08:34:51 AM by Alixz »

Offline Helen

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »
"What nonsense!" indeed isn't the kind of reply one would expect from a ruler when asked to agree with arbitration in such an important issue.  :(

And thank you, Naslednik, for telling us about the purport of Dan Morrill's article.

The Peace Palace in The Hague actually is one of the things I want to go and see this summer. According to its website, in the Small Jall of Justice is a life-size portrait of Nicholas II Sophie Hirschmann (1871-1937): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/S._Hirschmann_Nicholas_II_of_Russia_1907.jpg
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2009, 01:40:17 PM »
I am so glad that the portrait is still in place.

The official seat of the court is in The Hague, Netherlands, but its proceedings may take place anywhere.[6][55] The court is currently housed in interim premises on the eastern edge of The Hague.[56] The court intends to construct permanent premises in Alexanderkazerne, to the north of The Hague.[57][56]

The ICC also maintains a liaison office in New York[58] and field offices in places where it conducts its activities.[59] As of 18 October 2007, the court had field offices in Kampala, Kinshasa, Bunia, Abéché and Bangui.[59]

The ICC's detention centre comprises twelve cells on the premises of the Scheveningen branch of the Haaglanden Penal Institution, The Hague.[60] Suspects held by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia are held in the same prison and share some facilities, like the fitness room, but have no contact with suspects held by the ICC.[60] The detention unit is close to the ICC's future headquarters in Alexanderkazerne.[61]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 01:44:07 PM »
...As desirous of peace, he made an unprecedented suggestion to the world early in his reign — that all nations come together and meet in order to cut down on their military forces and submit to general arbitration on international disputes. The result of his proposal, the Hague Peace Conference, was convened on May 18, 1899, and served as the precedent for the later League of Nations and United Nations. As a giver of mercy he was unparalleled in Russian history pardoning criminals, even revolutionaries; giving away vast quantities of his own land to alleviate the plight of the peasants; and countless other charitable deeds of which only God knows. And, of course, few mourned as he did, and few were persecuted unjustly as he was.


This is quoted from a Pravda site.       http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=244023  It is a little more religious than historical, but interesting none the less.

Offline bkohatl

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2009, 06:52:07 AM »
Nicholas II and "The Daughter of Time"

I remember that when I was in college my Russian History Professor, Dr. Paul Johnson(Georgia State University), discussed how Nicholas' proposal that the disputes arising from the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo be submitted to an international tribunal for arbitration. If only the world had listened to him, 20,000,000 people wouldn't have been slaughtered needlessly. And there would have been no WWII, no Hitler and no 50,000,000 dead.
I remember a very spirited debate in class as to whether this suggested "tribunal" was in fact a precursor of the United Nations. I think it was. I remember writing a paper about those who sought war and those who sought to stop war. With all due apologies to several generations of historians, how in the world did WWI become The Great War? There is an old Irish saying that the worst or most ferocious battles aren't between right and wrong, the worst battles are between right and right.
World War II was "The Great War" because it was a battle between good and evil. After learning about the role of the British in the  Zimmerman Telegram and Oswald Rayner's late dinner at Moika Palace, Lenin's trip across Germany with the help of the Kaiser and worst of all, Serbian secret service(and government?) involvement or knowledge of the plot by "The Black Hand" to assassinate Franz Ferdinand.
It sure sounds like that in a world filled with cynics, Nicholas was one of the few who possessed true character.

I think it is time that someone tell people what Nicholas did right.

When I was 10, I read Josephine Tey's "The Daughter of Time". And, by the way, Truth is the daughter of time.
I learned that all extant portraits of Richard III had been retouched by Tudor painters. Despite the wonderful imagery of Shakespeare, Richard III was never a hunchback.
"Richard was the handsomest man in the room except his brother Edward."
Countess of Desmond 1475
"Such was his renown in warfare, that when ever a difficult and dangerous policy had to be undertaken, it would be entrusted to his generalship".
Dominic Mancini, 1483
"Thank God, the giver of all gifts, for the support received from our most loving brother".
Edward IV,Writing to Pope Sixtus IV, 1482
"On my trouth I lykyd never the condicions of ony prince so wel as his; God hathe sent hym to us for the wele of all..."
Thomas Langton - Bishop of St. David's
"King Richard, late mercifully reigning over us was piteously slain and murdered to the great heaviness of this city".
York City Records, 1485

Not quite Shakespeare. St. Thomas More wrote the biography of Richard III upon which Shakespeare's Richard III was based. St. Thomas wrote from what he had been told as a child when he served as a page for Cardinal Morton, a protege of Henry Tudor. He finished it several years before his death. But he never published it. Very strange.

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2009, 09:26:35 AM »
I know that at the time the war was called the "Great War" because it was the largest and most all consuming war up until its time.  It wasn't until after the war in the 1940s that it was renamed the First World War because now we had a second big and all consuming war.  And the second war was "greater" (bigger) than the first one.

It was also called the "War to End all Wars".  Fancy that!

I do agree with you that wars are fought between "right" and "right".  The side considered wrong is the side that loses.  No one goes into a war thinking that they are on the wrong side.  I don't want to get into the semantics of what is right and wrong or what is a crime against humanity.  (War, to me, is a crime against humanity)  But at least the "Great War" was not fought for religious reasons.  It is one of the very few that wasn't.
To my opinion, the Great War was a continuation of the wars of the 1800s where countries wanted to consolidate their power and build bigger Empires.  Also, any slight or loss of the 1800s was to be redressed by the fighting and winning of the "Great War".

The Second World War may not have begun as a war for religious reasons, but became such as Hitler filled the Concentration Camps with those who did not fit his idea of the "ideal" Aryan.   His criteria included religion and race and nationality.  Hitler wanted more land, but he also wanted to "purify" to his definition the human race.

This is totally OT - so I suggest that I stop and that everyone else go back to "redeeming" Nicholas II.  The man was not completely the "Bloody" tyrant that he has been painted to be.

Along with his mistakes , he was instrumental in starting the Hague.  I am sure there are other actions by which we can see that he showed great courage and intellect.

That is when he wasn't listening to his uncles, his mother and his wife.


Offline Helen

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2009, 03:36:04 PM »
The Dan Morrill article is the one I had read.  He takes the position that there were many influences leading to the creation of the Hague, but does not doubt the sincerity of Nicholas' original intent.  Too bad that people can't get these articles easily unless they have access thru a school.
Single articles from this journal are also available for purchase on JSTOR through scholar.google.com.
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline bkohatl

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2009, 08:40:15 PM »
In remembrance of Ivan The Terrible, it should be called "The Terrible War".

Alixz

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2009, 01:42:04 AM »
i am currently reading Rasputin the Saint who Sinned  by  Brian Moynahan.  This book is tough on both Nicholas and Alexandra.  There is no redemption to be seen in any of the pages.  Nothing that was good about either of them has made it into this book.

In fact, there is much in this book quoted from Anna Vyrubova that Massie also quoted in Nicholas & Alexandra but the slant is on the ineptitude of Nicholas and the willful stubbornness of Alexandra.

I think it will be very hard to find much good said about Nicholas in most of the biographies of the other people who were part of his world and lived during his time on the throne.

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2009, 03:33:38 PM »
Quote
I think it will be very hard to find much good said about Nicholas in most of the biographies of the other people who were part of his world and lived during his time on the throne.

This is true, history is written by the victors, but I wonder how different their memoirs might have been had things turned out differently, even only marginally different.  So many of the memoirs contain warm descriptions of Nicholas' personality (not just his charm), particularly early on:  Sandro's, Kschessinska's (of course!), GD Olga's, even Witte's, and we know how little they liked each other.  I think that most contemporaries admit to his courage in the face of physical harm and personal loss.  Also, some of those loyal to him stayed in St. Petersburg and faced execution, thus we don't hear those voices in autobiography.

Back to redemption!  For me, his redemption is not about legislation.  I'm sure that we can find plenty of good things that he did, and of course, that the artistic legacy of the era of his reign will always be glorious by any measure. But personally, he redeems himself by an extraordinary combination of simplicity and moral strength in the face of years of profound sadness, independent of what happened after March 1917.


Offline Lucien

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Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2009, 02:28:57 PM »
A day of remembrance of events 91 years ago to this day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWY-9UihgYg&feature=related
Je Maintiendrai

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Tsar Nicholas II: Redemption and Rehabilitation
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2009, 03:02:17 PM »
A day of remembrance of events 91 years ago to this day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWY-9UihgYg&feature=related


Wonderful video and wonderful Anthem...God save the Tsar!

91 years already, and we still remember, and we will never forget!, rest in peace Romanov family, and the other people who died in that horrible night in Ekaterinburg (Dr. Botkin, Trupp, Demidova...).
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 03:19:16 PM by RomanovsFan4Ever »