Author Topic: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder  (Read 238097 times)

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Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2005, 03:41:20 PM »
Wow Annie,
Thanks for posting that!  ;)

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2005, 11:56:34 AM »
Despite what some posters continue to say about Summers and Mangold, they did their homework.  They found evidence which had been eliminated from Sokolov's Report.  Some of the reports missing were those of the earlier investigators who had found eye witnesses who claimed they had seen Alexandra and her three daughters in Perm.

One particular investigator wrote in his report that he had thought the entire execution had been staged by the CHEKA.

Summers and Mangold's book THE FILE ON THE TSAR  is outdated since it was written in the 60s but this doesn't mean there still isn't good information in the book.

Time and time again I've asked the posters who place posts that trash Summers and Mangold to give me evidence that these two men had fabricated any of their evidence.  They can't.  In fact, there is a poster who use to work for them who tells us several times on other threads that Summers and Mangold were very good in this task of discovery.

I don't have time this morning to post some of the evidence which Summers and Mangold found but I will.

AGRBear

PS Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918 is a good place to start, I think:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Annie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2005, 10:06:54 AM »
Quote
Time and time again I've asked the posters who place posts that trash Summers and Mangold to give me evidence that these two men had fabricated any of their evidence.  They can't.


No one ever asked me that specifically, but I never said they 'fabricated' any of it. I do not think, and never thought that they outright lied. I do think they were incorrect in their theories, and that they got a hold of some incorrect information. I also think there are things they assumed that were not right.



Offline Denise

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2005, 04:19:55 PM »
Quote

No one ever asked me that specifically, but I never said they 'fabricated' any of it. I do not think, and never thought that they outright lied. I do think they were incorrect in their theories, and that they got a hold of some incorrect information. I also think there are things they assumed that were not right.




This is quite true Annie.   I have NEVER heard you say that the book was a fabrication, just that it was outdated.  Saying the information is incorrect (as it is, based on CURRENT research) does not equal the book being a lie.  

I just received this book from Laura Mabee, and have paged through it.  Despite the obvious errors because of recent findings, it is an interesting viewpoint of the alternate theories.  Given, of course, that you accept that the book's theory that the IF escaped has been denounced by the finding of the bodies.

A roundabout way to say I support Annie on this one!  ;)

Denise

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 06:41:58 PM »
Annie. can you give me an example of the incorrect information to which you refer?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2005, 08:30:03 AM »
Thanks Denise :)

Well, Bear, the family was killed in Ekaterinburg and the bodies (all but 2) were found and identified. So if there is any info contrary to that, it's incorrect. Also I was referring to their assumptions made into stories, such as the hair story. Hair was found, and they assumed OTMA had cut off their hair to disguise themselves as the fled and and they made a story about it, describing how they laughed as they cut each other's hair, etc, (they even mentioned how Alix refused to cut hers!) when in reality, they didn't even have long hair anymore since their heads had been shaved the year before! The hair found was something to do with that and not an escape, yet they used that as a story and it wasn't true. Again, I don't say they lied, just that they had some theories and assumptions that are not true. I am really tired of talking any more about this 28 year old book. It's been proven wrong and it's not important anymore.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2005, 10:34:31 AM »
Annie, we've gone through the "hair" discussion on another thread.  And, what Summer and Mangold told us was about  all of the of "hair" discovered.  There  wasn't just talk about the hairpieces,   there was also evidence that hair was cut ....   I think Nicholas II either trim his mustach and beard that day or a few days earlier, I forget at the moment.

You should go back and reread  that part of the book because you lumped togather a number of things.

And, if the IF did escape*, and that is what the Perm evidence they discovered seems to indicate when they were talking about the Perm evidence, so the speculation about the cutting of hair was important since it would change the look of those who escaped.


I'll look for what I already posted on this subject and bring it back here.  If it's in one of the locked down threads,  it might take me some time to find it or I might have to rewrite a new post about the "hair".

AGRBear

*Correction in my Post: reply #16, which is below.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2005, 11:10:08 AM »
THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold  pps. 67-68:

"Nametkin began work, as one might expect of a professional, by making minute inspection of the Impatiev House.  he was accompied by Captain Malinovsky of the Officers' Commission, and again by Chemodurov and Dr. Derevenko.  Togather they made a painstaking inventory of all the seemed to be left of the Romanovs...."

Their inventory of the hair/hairs found were:
(1) short pieces of hair cuttings in the bathroom
(2) in the vestibule outside the imperial quarters "more strands of hair"
(3) in a box "cut hair of four different colors to which was added by Summers and Mangold "Chemodurov later identitifed the hair as coming from the four grand duchesses"

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2005, 12:59:27 PM »
Quote
Annie, we've gone through the "hair" discussion on another thread.  And, what Summer and Mangold told us was about  all of the of "hair" discovered.  There  wasn't just talk about the hairpieces,   there was also evidence that hair was cut ....   I think Nicholas II either trim his mustach and beard that day or a few days earlier, I forget at the moment.

You should go back and reread  that part of the book because you lumped togather a number of things.

And, if the IF did escape, and that is what the Perm evidence they discovered seems to indicate when they were talking about the Perm evidence, so the speculation about the cutting of hair was important since it would change the look of those who escaped.

I'll look for what I already posted on this subject and bring it back here.  If it's in one of the locked down threads,  it might take me some time to find it or I might have to rewrite a new post about the "hair".

AGRBear


1. The IF did NOT escape or go to Perm.

2. I never said anything about hairpieces, just hair saved after their heads were shaved. If there were short cuttings of hair and moustaches in the bathroom, I seriously doubt this was done to alter anyone's appearance, or that it would have altered it that much. They wore hats anyway. But none of this matters, since they were shot in Ekaterinburg and were never in Perm.

Offline Denise

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2005, 01:29:03 PM »
Quote

1. The IF did NOT escape or go to Perm.

2. I never said anything about hairpieces, just hair saved after their heads were shaved. If there were short cuttings of hair and moustaches in the bathroom, I seriously doubt this was done to alter anyone's appearance, or that it would have altered it that much. They wore hats anyway. But none of this matters, since they were shot in Ekaterinburg and were never in Perm.


I have to agree with Annie here, Bear.  Using ANYTHING found in Ekaterinburg as evidence that the IF escaped to Perm is an obvious fallacy considering current events.  Yes, there may have been hair trim,med before the night July 16/17, but they still didn't go to Perm. The slight matter of a grave in the forest with 11 bodies dispells that myth.  

Perhaps had the Perm stories told only of one daughter and Alexei being sighted they would hold more weight today.

JMHO....

Denise

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2005, 01:57:39 PM »
No, the bodies in the mass grave doesn't change the fact that that members of the family may have been in Perm after 16/17 July 1918.

Alexandra and the girls could have been murdered later.  Maybe after the Whites left Ekaterinburg.

By the layers of the bodies we know who was placed in the grave first and the layers of bones shows us that Alexandra and the girls were not placed in the grave first.

We all know that nine of the eleven ended up in the grave in Pig's Meadow.  We know that they were buried approximately in 1918-1920 because of the age of the surface of the ground in some parts.

We know the grave has been opened more than once before 1979.  Just as we know some of the bones and skulls were removed then returned in a box after the opening in 1979.

As for the "hair",  this was evidence and Summers and Mangold speculated.  And, they thought it may have had some kind of connection to the "sightings" in Perm.  

Summers and Mangold gives evidence through eye witnesses' account that Alexandra and the girls were prisioners of the CHEKA in Perm and not free and roaming the streets.

And, they mentioned the fact that some of the witnesses didn't see four daughters but three.  So, there was mentioned that Anastasia may have tried to or did escape.

Remember, there was still a lot of people still believing that AA was GD Anastasia.  So, they were probably looking for evidence that might give Kurth and Lovell something new to work.  If I remember, however, they do say in their book that they didn't think AA was GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2005, 10:53:42 AM »
*Correction NOTE on my Post "Reply #11:

I just reread my post above and this is in error.  

"And, if the IF did escape, and that is what the Perm evidence they discovered seems to indicate when they were talking about the Perm evidence, so the speculation about the cutting of hair was important since it would change the look of those who escaped."

The Perm evidence doesn't show an escape from the Ipatiev House, it shows the CHEKA and Ural Soviets may have taken the Alexandra and the four girls to Perm.

They do, however, talk about witnesses saying that the Reds were looking for "Anastasia", who may have attempted escape twice from the CHEKA, in the woods near Perm .

The authors writings around the "hair" stuff was showing, I assume, that someone or all, might have changed their appearance earlier that day of the 16th of July.

Sorry for the mix up.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2005, 11:37:41 AM »
Quote
No, the bodies in the mass grave doesn't change the fact that that members of the family may have been in Perm after 16/17 July 1918.

Alexandra and the girls could have been murdered later.  Maybe after the Whites left Ekaterinburg.



And what would the point be?  By every even halfway credible account they all  were shot at once, in the basement. Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later! Once they found out that, they wouldn't have shot them, but they already had so they were covering for it!

AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot, through the mud where the truck got stuck, to territory the Whites were capturing, just to deposit them in the SAME grave?? Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place? That would be much better, and throw off the trail of the Whites even more! So see, none of the Perm story even makes any sense!

Quote
Summers and Mangold gives evidence through eye witnesses' account that Alexandra and the girls were prisioners of the CHEKA in Perm and not free and roaming the streets.


This 'evidence' is only because of the false stories circulated by the Bolsheviks to cover the fact that they were indeed already dead. It all came from that.

Also, as someone mentioned awhile back, how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes? Perhaps the Tsar, his face was well known, but remember, with the war, and the fact that most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch? They didn't have the internet and haven't spent much time staring at and evaluating pics like we have. Most of the people out there probably hadn't seen many, if any, pics of the girls in the newspaper and I doubt there were any books on them at this time. So no, I don't believe they could have been accurately recognized by your average Ural area Russian, this in addition to the likelihood everything else was just rumor and sensationalism.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Denise

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2005, 12:37:59 PM »
Quote

And what would the point be?  By every even halfway credible account they all  were shot at once, in the basement. Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later! Once they found out that, they wouldn't have shot them, but they already had so they were covering for it!

AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot, through the mud where the truck got stuck, to territory the Whites were capturing, just to deposit them in the SAME grave?? Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place? That would be much better, and throw off the trail of the Whites even more! So see, none of the Perm story even makes any sense!


This 'evidence' is only because of the false stories circulated by the Bolsheviks to cover the fact that they were indeed already dead. It all came from that.

Also, as someone mentioned awhile back, how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes? Perhaps the Tsar, his face was well known, but remember, with the war, and the fact that most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch? They didn't have the internet and haven't spent much time staring at and evaluating pics like we have. Most of the people out there probably hadn't seen many, if any, pics of the girls in the newspaper and I doubt there were any books on them at this time. So no, I don't believe they could have been accurately recognized by your average Ural area Russian, this in addition to the likelihood everything else was just rumor and sensationalism.





Well said, Annie.  You covered all the points I was going to bring up as I read Bear's response.  

I think the major point Annie makes that completely debunks the Perm stories is that the women's bodies would have had to be brought back to enemy territory to be buried with the remainder of the imperial party.  Seems completely unlikely if not impossible.  

And why the telegrams to Moscow that the rest met the same fate as the head if they were alive and romping around in Perm?  If they had been in Perm the last thing you would expect is for the Cheka to allow others to see them.  Think how those spectators around the Ipatiev house were threatened for loitering?

Denise

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2005, 01:07:27 PM »
Quote

And what would the point be?  By every even halfway credible account they all  were shot at once, in the basement. Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later! Once they found out that, they wouldn't have shot them, but they already had so they were covering for it!

AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot, through the mud where the truck got stuck, to territory the Whites were capturing, just to deposit them in the SAME grave?? Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place? That would be much better, and throw off the trail of the Whites even more! So see, none of the Perm story even makes any sense!


This 'evidence' is only because of the false stories circulated by the Bolsheviks to cover the fact that they were indeed already dead. It all came from that.

Also, as someone mentioned awhile back, how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes? Perhaps the Tsar, his face was well known, but remember, with the war, and the fact that most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch? They didn't have the internet and haven't spent much time staring at and evaluating pics like we have. Most of the people out there probably hadn't seen many, if any, pics of the girls in the newspaper and I doubt there were any books on them at this time. So no, I don't believe they could have been accurately recognized by your average Ural area Russian, this in addition to the likelihood everything else was just rumor and sensationalism.


Annie:  >>Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later!<<
Bear Ans.:  I do not know to what you are referring.  Please explain.

Annie: >>..AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot..<<
Bear Ans:  The spot was created by Yurovsky so  it would stand to reason that once Alex. and the three girls were executed that they'd take the bodies back to where they had said they were buried to cover up their lies....  Some think the bodies were actually buried elsewhere and then up dug up and then reburied in Pig's Meadow because of the various bones missing which occurs in a reburiel....

Annie: >>Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place?<<
Bear Ans.:  That is what they should have accomplished in July of 1918, but they didn't, they  reported the buriels were  in Pig's Meadow and this is where they needed to be found by Soviet officials if they came looking for themselves....


Annie:  >> ...none of the Perm story even makes any sense!<<
Bear Ans.:  This was war time and a lot of events don't make sense when looking at them in 2005.  But, I see no reason why the CHEKA wouldn't have taken Alexandra and the girls to Perm just as they had announced.... And, if they did, then executed them later, I doubt they would have made a public annoucement of having killed them after if the Whites during their investigation had already declared them having been executed on 16/17 July.

Annie: >>...how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes<<
Bear Ans.:  I thought it was agreed by some of you that aristocracts were easily reconized because of their attitude toward the peasants and others who were beneath them in the social ladder, so, it didn't matter what they wore.  And, too, the moment they opened their mouth, their Russian would be reconized as being one that of an educated person.

Annie: >>most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch?<<
Bear Ans.:  I'm not sure why people believe people who lived in small villages be it near Odessa, Kherson, Ekaterinburg or Tifilis didn't have newspapers, which had carried pictures of the Royal Family, or magazines, which had carried pictures of the Royal Family, or that the image of Nicholas II wasn't familar even though it it hung in school rooms and govt. buildings....  There were even postcards of the Royal Family sold in stands in Ekaterinburg .....  Remember the magazines AA saw in the asylum? And this was in Berlin not even in Russia.  A stack of them saved and read over and over.  Ekaterinburg was a busy city and connected to the west and the east because of it's position along the rail lines and it's ecomony.  Also, people were no different then they are, now. Our forum is a good example because it shows many of us have an interest in the IF.  It was no different then.  And, perhaps even more so then.  Wasn't it a dream of every little girl to grow up and marry a prince, and, I bet there were many hoping  Tsarvich Alexei would walk into their lives....  Just as the little girls and young women had in Nicholas II's time...

I remember my one grandmother who lived in one of those distant village talk about how they horded the magazines and how the girls would view the the royals and their clothes.  She often copied the fashions worn by he Royals found in magazines.  She was born in the 1880s.

I've got to go and do some work.  

I may have made some errors but I'm being  suddenly told to rush....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152