Author Topic: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38  (Read 21137 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2005, 02:19:45 PM »
I am up to my ears in books I'm just starting or about ready to finish.  Amazon is going to be way in the black ink because of me this last year.

Could you give us an example, rskkiya?

AGRbear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Alvensleven
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2005, 02:58:09 PM »
Quote
Agrbear
(DEEP SIGH)

Please do tell me where you have found any 'German plots to rescue the Tsar" any books please if you can remember them...I am curious...  :)
rskkiya

PS I will try to do some research for you --but just now my time is at a premium --SO I MAKE NO PROMISES-- OK!
r


I don't recall what thread it was that this discussion took place so I'll rewrite some of the data.  At my fingertips is the one book I know inside and out and that's Summers and Mangold's THE FILE ON THE TSAR and I have the pages marked.  However, this knowledge is not just found in their book.

Starts around p. 284 and talks about the German diplomat Count Alvensleven who was making demands about IF's safety.  The Count  p. 286 told General Dolgorukov's:

>>... [he] warned us that between 16 July and the 20th rumors would be spread about news of the death of the tsar, and that this rumor or news should not alarm us; like the rumor of the murder of the tsar, which was current in June, it would be flase, but it would be necesssary from certain reasons, namely for the tsar's rescue."

Let me repeat these words, ".... for the tsar's rescue."

On another thread there is a great deal of discussion about the Germans rescuing the other Romanovs in the Crimea.

A few days later, the 6th of July,  Count Mirbach, the German ambassador,  was shot and killed in Moscow  days after Alvensleven had told Dolgorukov those words.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2005, 09:47:07 PM »
Quote
Agrb..
   Have you read WITH SNOW ON THEIR BOOTS By J.H. Cockfield? Its quite good and it explores some rather overlooked aspects of the Great War.

rskkiya


Agrb
This is my most recent post -  the other posts were made (I should guess) some months ago and were related to a previous discussion...
I do think that you would enjoy this book.

PS- I have posted my critique of the historical inacuracies regarding "THE FILE ON THE TSAR" in another post.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2005, 03:55:11 PM »
The German rescue plot is not inaccurate.

As for our debate on the book FILE ON THE TSAR it is under the book section.  

Despite rskkyia dislike for this book, she nor has anyone else  shown it be inaccurate with the facts presented, and, yes, it is dated, afterall, it was written in 1976.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2005, 05:18:41 PM »
AGR
I explained my complaints to Candice under one of the older survivor topics  - it might be locked now... I chose not to repeat myself in yet another thread.

Sorry if that's not satisfactory

rskkiya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2005, 07:16:10 PM »
Do you have anything that disproves the fact that Germany was ploting a rescue of Nicholas II in July between the 16th and the 20th of 1918???

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2005, 06:42:40 PM »
Quote
Do you have anything that disproves the fact that Germany was ploting a rescue of Nicholas II in July between the 16th and the 20th of 1918???

AGRBear

WELL---
   By GERMANY do you mean the Government (at that time) or are we simply thinking of any group of private "german" citizens... After all anyone can start a plot...

In the next few weeks I'll look into it.

rskkiya

PS: Agr - As you know, it's VERY difficult to DISPROVE a LEGEND...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2005, 07:37:45 PM »
Which is exactly why these things are legends. Otherwise, they  would be FACTS.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2005, 08:23:31 PM »
Believe what you'd like but that doesn't change history nor the facts.  

It is a historical fact,  the Germans did have a plot to rescue Nicholas II and his family between the 16th to 20th of July 1920.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2005, 09:23:12 AM »
WHICH GERMANS??

Was this a government orchestrated plan, or a handful of individuals?

rskkiya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2005, 01:30:19 PM »
I do not know the numbers.

From what I understand, the orders came down from the top, Kaiser Wilhelm II into Russia....  We know about the German ambassader Mirbach, just as we know about Count Alvensleven, but as far as I know, records showing who was invovled in the actual rescue is not known, or, maybe I should have said, not known by me.  I suspect German generals in their intelligence  worked on the details.

It would have been similar to the rescue of the Romanovs in the Crimea, I assume.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2005, 06:55:41 PM »
What's your source?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2005, 09:42:16 AM »
There is a thread about all the rescue attempts including the German rescues of the Romanov in the Crimea and sources found on the following URL:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980627;start=0

Here are some more notes about the German rescue which lead to many of the Romanovs escaping on the  HMS Marlbourgh.
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1101933721

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Angwen

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2005, 12:21:23 PM »
About Trotsky's inconstencies I attribute it all to politics.

By 1935 Trotsky had more reason to blame Stalin for things. Lenin was dead so he didn't have to worry about being contradicted.

As for German rescue attempts...for Alexandra I understand because she was a princess. But Germany had declared war on Russia so it would not look very good if they helped the Enemy's royalty.
Sure they are family but that can only go so far.I do not think the opinions of the military and public would be very pleased.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Truth or Fiction in Hist.Bks About Yrs 1912-38
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2005, 08:07:43 PM »
I guess you are not aware that the Kaiser's army saved the Romanovs who were at this time living in the Crimea.  AND, it was known among high Whites officals that the Germans were about to rescue Nicholas II on or about the night of 16 July 1918....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152