Author Topic: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?  (Read 22374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13061
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
I have to say I didn't know anything about the screenname to be offended or not. After it was brought up, I googled it. Now I'm old (or young) enough to know Beavis & Butthead but not familiar enough with them to recognize the reference. I suppose as there's not outright profanity in the name it's acceptable but it's really the FA's call. Maybe he's not a B&B connoisseur?  ;)
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Cornholio

  • Guest
Dear me, I had no idea this silly little joke of a name would cause this thread to be taken off topic, unless that was the aim. I hope not!

 I am aware that Cornholio is a Beavis and Butthead character. I have never heard, on or off the show, of the term 'cornholing'. The reason for the screen name is that in the movie "Beavis and Butthead Do America", the duo were on a cross country trip. He ate too much candy and became hyper, pulling his shirt up over his head as show in my avatar. On a cross- country trip, a friend and I did this with our shirts for a joke. That is ALL that was intended by it, a personal reference to that. You can watch the entire movie, there is nothing in it about the name being anything other than silly. Really, too much has been made out of this. If it's so offensive, by all means remove the picture and the name, but please leave the post because it's an important question.

I do thank Holly, Olishka and Imperial Angel for their heartfelt and well thought out responses. I totally agree.

Eddieboy UK, your post about the claimants being hurtful to the families is also a good one.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 04:17:06 PM by Cornholio »

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson

I do thank Holly, Olishka and Imperial Angel for their heartfelt and well thought out responses. I totally agree.

So opinions which do not agree with your premise are neither "heartfelt" nor "well though out"?  Interesting...

Quote
Eddieboy UK, your post about the claimants being hurtful to the families is also a good one.

Through my research, I have met and interviewed and got to "know" on some level several Romanovs of different branches -- maybe half-a-dozen of them. Two of them knew Anastasia in life.  Before discussing the AA story, I specifically asked each of them if they are personally bothered or "hurt" by Anna Anderson.  None of them are/were.  All were willing to discuss the AA story with varying degrees of interest.  None of them said or implied that Anna Anderson was "crazy," but all were interested in what the truth about her might have been.

Let's not be too precious here...
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Eddie_uk

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
    • View Profile
I don't think it's being precious at ALL. The distress it must of caused the Dowager Empress, Xenia and Olga is not hard to imagine. Especally Olga. Really an awful occurence.

Lets put are selves in their shoes. A much loved grandaughter/neice vanishes virtually without trace and then a few years later a woman, clearly an imposter, pretends to be her! How awful!
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
I don't think it's being precious at ALL. The distress it must of caused the Dowager Empress, Xenia and Olga is not hard to imagine. Especally Olga. Really an awful occurence.

Lets put are selves in their shoes. A much loved grandaughter/neice vanishes virtually without trace and then a few years later a woman, clearly an imposter, pretends to be her! How awful!

We can argue in another thread about how "clear" this imposter was to Olga -- but I am not speaking of these people.  I am speaking of the ones known to me who are either alive, or who were alive until recently.  These are the only ones whose "feelings" can be helped at this time -- and if they assure a historian that they do not have hurt feelings over Anna Anderson and her claim, then I take them at their word.  In my experience -- which is the only frame of reference in which I am speaking -- the subject of this thread is a non-issue.

MF died almost seventy years ago; Olga and Xenia died forty years ago. They are gone.  Their "feelings" -- real or imagined -- are beyond any help at this time, and therefore cannot be allowed to dictate what we are allowed to think about, write about, read about or discuss.

Let's be sensible here.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 04:51:17 PM by Penny_Wilson »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Holly

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1411
  • www.otma.org
    • View Profile
    • otmaa.org
Cornholio is the name of the character Beavis turns into when he's had too much sugar/caffeine. I really don't think there's anything offensive in that. Not a lot of people would find out some other meaning in that name... ::)
Like I said, this topic has nothing to do with some one's screen name. It's just a name! In my opinion, the post and what's in it matters more than the name that's at the top of it.
We're all interested in the truth about Anna Anderson.  Obviously, she was mentally unstable to a degree. Excuse me, but I think calling yourself a Grand Duchess whilst living a lie, then going naked on your roof more than once(among many other things) sounds a bit loony to me. I agree with Eddieboy. I really don't understand your post, Penny; it also doesn't matter what Anna Anderson called herself, she still pretended to be Anastasia, and what she did was disrespectful to the dead in my eyes. Not only disrespectful to the dead, but to the Romanov's and those who knew Anastasia very well.
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

http://www.otmaa.org -- Coming Soon.

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Cornholio is the name of the character Beavis turns into when he's had too much sugar/caffeine. I really don't think there's anything offensive in that. Not a lot of people would find out some other meaning in that name... ::)

Many other people who post here know exactly what the name means.  It's been quite the topic of PMs today.

Quote
We're all interested in the truth about Anna Anderson.  Obviously, she was mentally unstable to a degree. Excuse me, but I think calling yourself a Grand Duchess whilst living a lie, then going naked on your roof more than once(among many other things) sounds a bit loony to me.

Please read (or re-read) Peter Kurth's book for the entirety of this story.

Quote
I really don't understand your post, Penny...


Sorry.  I've written as plainly as I can.

Quote
...Not only disrespectful to the dead, but to the Romanov's and those who knew Anastasia very well.

This is your opinion; it is not the opinion of the Romanovs in my experience.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Since I am the one who first brought this up, I'd like to throw my two kopeks into the discussion.

The name is relevant to this particular thread. You ask whether Anastasia's tragic death is "cheapened" by "Anna Andersen" using her name, so names are obviously important. I know that the name Cornholio comes from Beavis and Butthead, but the writers of that show were making a smirky little point with it. Don't you think it "cheapens" your argument to have a screen name that is a smutty joke making the plea for sensitivity?

The whole "cheapening" thing also perplexes me. How exactly is Anastasia's suffering and tragic death "diminished" by Anna Andersen? Does she not die tragically? Does her suffering lose value (the definition of "cheapening", right?). No. Anastasia is long past those kind of considerations. If you really feel this way, then someone like Marie Antoinette had a death "cheapened" by the outcries of joy that greeted the moment her head fell.

The value of suffering and tragic death is not awarded by movies, plays, television series or even imposters. Moreover, when you are older, Holly and Olishka, and have had a chance to do history as a serious student, you will understand that we can't cut out study of the nasty bits. Nor should we.

Eddie, I know a great deal about Olga at least, and I have a hard time imagining that this very tough woman, who survived the destruction of her society and everything that happened to her in her life, would have wasted a moment feeling hurt and sad about Anna Andersen. Annoyed, yes.

There seems to be a concerted effort to stop discussion of Anna Andersen. No idea why, but there it is. On the other hand, I suppose the correct answer to the question posed by the thread is "no".

I went back and modified this when I read Penny Wilson's post. I do think some credence by those concerned about the Romanovs' hurt feelings should be given to someone who actually knows Romanovs.

Simon

« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 05:09:48 PM by Louis_Charles »
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline imperial angel

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4608
    • View Profile
I think this kind of debate is like the debate about whether the animated movie cheapened Anastasia's memory or not, or whether it was disrespectful to her memory to have a cartoon. That thread has many interesting discussions in it that might be relevant to this. Between the two, I feel Anna Anderson cheapened Anastasia's memory more. As for not discussing Anna Anderson, we are discussing her right here. She really did have mental issues. She did not intend to cheapen anyone's memory, I know that but it still seems that she did in some ways, through making Anastasia a figure who is not known historically as she really was. Olga was annoyed about the impostors, but from the quotes in Olga's biography, it is obvious she respected Anastasia's memory. I can't remember exactly what else she said, but that would be the best source for her feelings, or any inference about them.

Offline lexi4

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • don't take yourself too seriously
    • View Profile
Simon,
I wish I had said all of that.  :)
In my post about using the name Cornholio, I did not mean to imply that the poster should not be allowed to use it or that I as offended by it. I was merely trying to make the point Simon made so well in his above post.

No, to answer the original question.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Holly

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1411
  • www.otma.org
    • View Profile
    • otmaa.org
Anna Anderson wasn't just using her name. (Actually, I've never seen her called "Anastasia" before) It's the fact that she pretended to be a young girl who was murdered. That's not right. What I think Cornholio means, is that when Anna Anderson and all of those other pretenders said they were Anastasia and made up all these stories, people who don't know the whole story, tend to believe it. They believe Anastasia lived on and, in the case of "AnastasiA", lived on in an orphanage. People seem to forget that she died with all of these legends floating around all the time. I never said we should cut out the "nasty bits" in history. And we shouldn't forget about Anna Anderson, she is a very important part of this saga and she shouldn't be left out, of course. But, if she never happened, it would of course be more convienent. Haha.
On the other side, Anna Anderson might in a way have brought Anastasia's tragic death to light. I'm sure all the attention Anna gave to the real story of Anastasia brought others to realize the truth.
On a side note: I am doing history as a serious student. I'm taking college world history classes in 10th grade. How much more serious can high school get?  ;D (Hopefully not much!)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 05:29:12 PM by Holly »
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

http://www.otmaa.org -- Coming Soon.

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Another Anastasia claimant; the ears match exactly
    • View Profile
I think Anna Anderson was just as tragic a person as Anastasia, myself.  She clearly was a very unhappy person and lived a sad life pretending to be someone she was not, someone who, I think, she actually convinced herself that she was.

I believe both should be respected for who they were.  Calling one a 'martyr' and one 'crazy' is neither true nor respectful.

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Holly

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1411
  • www.otma.org
    • View Profile
    • otmaa.org
I think Anna Anderson was just as tragic a person as Anastasia, myself.  She clearly was a very unhappy person and lived a sad life pretending to be someone she was not, someone who, I think, she actually convinced herself that she was.

I believe both should be respected for who they were.  Calling one a 'martyr' and one 'crazy' is neither true nor respectful.

Rachel
xx
Nobody said Anna's life wasn't tragic. Living a life pretending to be someone else is an awfully sad life. But, I don't think quite as tragic as Anastasia's. Anna brought the tragedies we know of, on herself. Of course, "martyr" and "crazy" are generally opinions. But Anastasia was cannonized in the Russian Orthodox Church.
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

http://www.otmaa.org -- Coming Soon.

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski or Anastasia Manahan. Just a minor point.

(2) That's great about taking a history class in high school, Holly. But of course there are much more in-depth and interesting courses ahead of you. Are you thinking a majoring in history?

(3) If anything, the mystery of Anna Andersen has illuminated the life of Anastasia Romanova in a way that simply would not have happened without it, so all of you young ladies --- and Eddieboy, of course --- who are dedicated to her memory should really be pleased that the Andersen case deflected so much attention to the real girl. Had this not happened, she would have suffered the historical fate of most princesses, i.e. oblivion. Look how much they know about her on the other threads. I have seen posts about everything from her favorite clothing to the color of her eyes, or even what her sister would have looked like in blue jeans.

(4) You are really not talking about Romanov feelings being hurt. You are talking about your own feelings.  Why is that? I suppose it is natural to identify with a young lady your own age who comes to a tragic end, and that is nice. But as I said above, the real girl is past her suffering. How are you personally being hurt by the Andersen case? As Penny said, the Romanovs don't seem to care all that much (and didn't in the case of some of the dead ones, at least).

Simon
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Holly

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1411
  • www.otma.org
    • View Profile
    • otmaa.org
Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski or Anastasia Manahan. Just a minor point.

(2) That's great about taking a history class in high school, Holly. But of course there are much more in-depth and interesting courses ahead of you. Are you thinking a majoring in history?

(3) If anything, the mystery of Anna Andersen has illuminated the life of Anastasia Romanova in a way that simply would not have happened without it, so all of you young ladies --- and Eddieboy, of course --- who are dedicated to her memory should really be pleased that the Andersen case deflected so much attention to the real girl. Had this not happened, she would have suffered the historical fate of most princesses, i.e. oblivion. Look how much they know about her on the other threads. I have seen posts about everything from her favorite clothing to the color of her eyes, or even what her sister would have looked like in blue jeans.

(4) You are really not talking about Romanov feelings being hurt. You are talking about your own feelings.  Why is that? I suppose it is natural to identify with a young lady your own age who comes to a tragic end, and that is nice. But as I said above, the real girl is past her suffering. How are you personally being hurt by the Andersen case? As Penny said, the Romanovs don't seem to care all that much (and didn't in the case of some of the dead ones, at least).

Simon
Oh, I didn't know that she called herself Anastasia. I apologize. I've only heard her referred to as Anna Anderson. I guess I do need to re-read Peter Kurth's book! :-X I do want to major in history in college, though many tell me not to, as there is nothing much you can do with it career-wise. After thinking about it a bit more, Anna Anderson did in a way illuminate Anastasia's life. And I suppose that is the one plus of Anna Anderson.
About talking more of my own feelings than the Romanov's: it probably seems strange that I do that. I didn't realize I was. Somehow I take things relating to Anastasia to heart and I get these feelings occasionally. When someone says something against her, I feel hurt and offended myself. You'll have to excuse me.  :-[ But couldn't Olga A. or Maria F. feel upset that someone was claiming to be their beloved neice/granddaughter? I think I would, if that happened to me.
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

http://www.otmaa.org -- Coming Soon.