Author Topic: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?  (Read 22383 times)

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Offline lexi4

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Holly,
If you keep an open mind, the more you study, the more your perspective will change. At least that is how it has been for me. Perhaps now you have a "romantic" view of AN. That is fine. Some of us are looking at it from a historical perspective. We can't possibly know the real feelings of Olga, Xenia, or the Dowager Empress about AN. We have ideas, but those feelings and thoughts were not discussed publicly. AA life does not "cheapen" the tragedy of the deaths of the IF. I don't see the two is related at all.
Lexi
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I did not know the name was anything but funny. He's just a hyper kid.

The way that Andersen cheapens the tragedy of the real Anastasia is when people say she really was Anastasia because that is disrespectful to the girl who was murdered and martryed. She did not live on as another person. By saying so, it is taking respect away from the sad end to the real Anastasia. If anybody talks about Andersen like she was a different person and not Anastasia but a sad imposter that is okay.

The worst way the whole Anna Andersen story cheapens and disrespects the real tragedy is when people get into a fight over it...and it's happening again... :'(

Why do people get so upset when somebody says Andersen wasn't really Anastasia? It makes no sense.

Offline Belochka

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Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski ...

Simon

Did that also mean that Mrs Manahan prefered to use the more familiar Polish appellation?  ::)

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Offline Holly

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I did not know the name was anything but funny. He's just a hyper kid.

The way that Andersen cheapens the tragedy of the real Anastasia is when people say she really was Anastasia because that is disrespectful to the girl who was murdered and martryed. She did not live on as another person. By saying so, it is taking respect away from the sad end to the real Anastasia. If anybody talks about Andersen like she was a different person and not Anastasia but a sad imposter that is okay.

The worst way the whole Anna Andersen story cheapens and disrespects the real tragedy is when people get into a fight over it...and it's happening again... :'(

Why do people get so upset when somebody says Andersen wasn't really Anastasia? It makes no sense.
Amen.

Lexi, truthfully, I really don't see anything about the Romanov's "romantically". I've been interested in them for around 5-6 years now and if at any time I saw Anastasia in a romantic perspective, I've passed that by now. I, too, look at things in a historical perspective. Just because Olga A.'s feelings weren't discussed to the public, it doesn't mean you can't know of them. "AA does not cheapen the death's of the IF" - is your opinion. I, and others, think differently. The two are related. Re-read Cornholio's posts and maybe you will see.
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Offline Forum Admin

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Look,
Anna Anderson has nothing to do with Anastasia Nicholaievna, actually. People saw in her what they wanted to see. The truth is, they never saw the 'real' Anastasia. So, what does that have to do with anything then? We too know many Romanovs, including several who knew the real AN. They all said AA was "the best of the fakes" and pretty much laughed at all of them, AA included.  AA is nothing more than a historical footnote to the story of the fall of the Romanov Dynasty. Interesting, sure. but since AA was not AN, there is no "cheapening" of the horrible executions in Ekaterinburg. She was just a strange sad person, who associated herself to the story. Nothing more.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski ...

Simon

Did that also mean that Mrs Manahan prefered to use the more familiar Polish appellation?  ::)

Margarita


Nope, my spelling mistake. Whenever I write foreign names I am kind of interchangeable about them. "George" for "Georgiy", "Ksenia" for "Xenia". Actually, I doubt she ever used a last name at all, save for Manahan, and I have a hard time imagining that she introduced herself to people as Mrs. Manahan. Jack Manahan customarily referred to her as "my wife", "Anastasia" and "the Grand Duchess", from what I have read. I have also read that she called him "Hans".

So there you go.

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Offline LisaDavidson

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I've spent my weekend taking care of my girls, who are both sick, one with strep throat and one with a sinus infection. I have thus missed most of this discussion, and too bad for me. :0

The brutality of the killing of this family is perhaps most chillingly told in Yurovsky's 1922 note, which Greg and Penny have recently made available on their website. It was undoubtedly a tragic end for them and a very painful loss for their surviving family. Without doubt, every family member with living memory of them is dead now, so from the standpoint of protecting their feelings, I agree that we need not be concerned with discussions of AA and how this would impact currently living Romanov descendants.

For some of us, Anastasia Nicholievna is a martyr and indeed she is one according to the exiled Russian Orthdodox Church and a passion bearer according to the church in Russia. I don't think it is respectful to Orthodox Christians to dispute this designation except to agree to disagree if one actually does. For those of us who are not Orthodox Christians, some of us believe that nothing AA did could diminish the tragedy of Grand Duchess Anastasia's death.

However, it would not be entirely accurate to report that all of the currently living members of the Family are content to see Anastasia's life misportrayed in the media, not that anyone here has done so, by the way. I can clearly recall many of the current members of the Family opposing the Anastasia cartoon because of its jarring mixture of fact and fiction. Anna Anderson herself had nothing at all to do with this "fictionalized Anastasia".

So, at most we could say the fact that there was at least one false claimant here in the West and countless others in Russia eventually lead to misrepresentations in the media of the life of the real Anastasia. I'm not sure that this cheapens the tragedy of her death, but I think to an extent it has trivialized her as a media figure in a way that would never have happened had there been no false claimants. That, in my opinion, is very sad, and at least for me, made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Offline Belochka

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... made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

Curious Lisa, but how are you going to accomplish that particular commitment?

... For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

It is however up to the living today to learn to distinguish between flippant trivia against significant facts no matter how unwelcome they may be.

Margarita

« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 04:08:01 AM by Belochka »


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Offline Eddie_uk

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Thank you all for the interesting posts.

My point (and it maybe a small one) was that the whole AA chirade must have caused a great deal of stress for the surviving Romanovs. Look how Olga was hassled by Gleb Botkin et al and various fakes. Who wants all that?!! It must have caused her grief. Going on memory here, and I stand corrected, but didn't Xenia write about the wickedness of Botkin to accuse them of attempting to defraud a much loved neice dude to money which was cruel and hurtful? That's horrible.

Didn't Prince Henry ban the mention of AA because he knew the upset it caused Princess Irene? And perhaps if the Dowager Empress had been able to come to terms with the fact that the family were dead she would have made her feelings on AA clear.

Anyway, just my two pence worth ;)
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Offline Lemur

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Quote
For some of us, Anastasia Nicholievna is a martyr and indeed she is one according to the exiled Russian Orthdodox Church and a passion bearer according to the church in Russia. I don't think it is respectful to Orthodox Christians to dispute this designation except to agree to disagree if one actually does.

That is a tough one, when many people believe she is a martyr and a passion bearer, then you have others saying she didn't die, but lived for many years under an assumed name and died elderly, that looks disrepectful to the religion. She can't be a martyr and Anna Anderson too.

Quote
For those of us who are not Orthodox Christians, some of us believe that nothing AA did could diminish the tragedy of Grand Duchess Anastasia's death.

How about by saying that there was no tragic death? That's exactly what she did by pretending to be Anastasia.

Offline Lemur

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Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

Margarita



That is the final comfort in all this, to know that she really is at peace.

Offline imperial angel

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Obviously, she has been at peace since her death, although her memory has been dragged through the mud and that really isn't peace. I think it did cause her royal relatives some problems at the time, more than just annoyance, although we can't know exactly what they felt. We can only speculate based on what we read in biographies. I would say that isn't always accurate, but it can be interesting I think Anna Anderson and Anastasia should be treated as different subjects, not thrown together as they sometimes are in biographies of Anna Anderson supporting her claim.I agree with every word of Lisa Davidson's post on this subject, and it showed me what I hadn't thought of before, but agree with now.

Offline LisaDavidson

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... made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

Curious Lisa, but how are you going to accomplish that particular commitment?

... For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

It is however up to the living today to learn to distinguish between flippant trivia against significant facts no matter how unwelcome they may be.

Margarita



Happy New Year Margarita!

I have never been to Russia and it will take considerable resources to get me there to study the way I want to study. So, we are talking years. I still have two daughters to get through school, and they are of course, my priority.

Thus, my committment is to doing as much research as possible to try to figure out the location of the second gravesite. To that end, I am putting together a small group to go over the evidence, piece by piece, in hopes that we can figure out why the site has not been located yet. This promises to be a most interesting project.

I don't want to do anything which will in any way impede the work being done in the field. Obviously, that is not my area of expertise, as I am not a scientist.

I am sure to a degree the Grand Duchess rests in peace, but I nonetheless feel that there will be less disrespect in the world towards her (of which the cartoon is only an example) if this can be determined. There is of course a chance that she is already interred with her family, but if she is or is not, I still feel it is important that her remains, those of the missing sister (who may or may not be her), and her brother, be identified and buried with the rest of their family. It is only my opinion, but it is my opinion that only then they will "rest in peace".

Offline Belochka

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... made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

Curious Lisa, but how are you going to accomplish that particular commitment?

... For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

It is however up to the living today to learn to distinguish between flippant trivia against significant facts no matter how unwelcome they may be.

Margarita



Happy New Year Margarita!

I have never been to Russia and it will take considerable resources to get me there to study the way I want to study. So, we are talking years. I still have two daughters to get through school, and they are of course, my priority.

Thus, my committment is to doing as much research as possible to try to figure out the location of the second gravesite. To that end, I am putting together a small group to go over the evidence, piece by piece, in hopes that we can figure out why the site has not been located yet. This promises to be a most interesting project.

I don't want to do anything which will in any way impede the work being done in the field. Obviously, that is not my area of expertise, as I am not a scientist.

Happy New Year Lisa!

I am intrigued by this "small group" that you have joined. It seems that our past conversations on this matter have encouraged you to pursue an independent stance. I trust that your desktop research will bring you the comfort that you seek.

If you have anything to share please keep me appraised by PM, since the exchange of credible ideas ideally should be communicated. 

S.E.A.R.C.H. is of course the only authorized international group that is endorsed by the Russian Federation to conduct on-field investigations to find the remains of the two missing children.

Margarita



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Offline Holly

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Thank you Lisa and Lemur, for you posts. I really agree.  :)

There have only been 2 people on this earth in general, who have actually made real progress in the quest to find Anastasia's and Alexei's remains. And I truly hope with all my heart that in the end they will be successful with their endeavors.
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