Author Topic: Was Maria sad?  (Read 17488 times)

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2007, 10:45:25 PM »
At any rate, there's already a thread or two in the Olga Nikolaevna board that discusses this issue more fully.

Here's one: Olga knew what was going to happen
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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2007, 06:03:38 AM »
 Thanks Sarushka!! for finding me a thread discussed about Olga knew what was going to happen. :D

Offline grandduchess_42

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2007, 05:47:05 PM »
aw poor olga

sarushka was that true what marie said in the middle quote?
Plus she was the only grand duchesses who new how much her family was in danger. :)

Again, there is no real evidence of that.
There is evidence in memoirs of the courtiers that Olga was the most affected of OTMA by the revolution, but as Raegan said, nothing to my knowledge explicitly states that she knew they were in mortal danger.

Buxhoeveden:
"The horror of the Revolution told on her more keenly than on any of the others. She changed completely, and all her bright spirits disappeared."
[....]
"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!"
[....]
"Olga Nicholaevna was in a state of great anxiety. She longed to join her parents, for whose fate she trembled, and, on the other hand, she feared the move for her brother, both on account of his health and also for fear of what the move might lead to."



I was quite sure Gilliard had mentioned Olga's awareness of the revolution as well, but I haven't been able to find the exact quote so far. At any rate, there's already a thread or two in the Olga Nikolaevna board that discusses this issue more fully.
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 10:15:33 AM »
sarushka was that true what marie said in the middle quote?
Buxhoeveden:
"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!"
It appears that Maria did indeed say that. The quote appears in Isa Buxhoeveden's biography of Alix, and also in The House of Special Purpose. Gibbes lived with the IF in Tobolsk, and made notes of his impressions of each family member. 20 months later, he gave a more formal version to a magistrate in Ekaterinburg. So if you trust Gibbes' memory (and there's no real reason you shouldn't in this instance) it's very likely true.
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Offline grandduchess_42

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 05:32:41 PM »
oh ok thank you Sarushka!

i wonder what the big pair thought of that comment!
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 05:51:25 PM »
oh ok thank you Sarushka!

i wonder what the big pair thought of that comment!

There's no record of the big pair responding to Maria's comment. It's possible that Maria said it only to Gibbes himself and her older sisters never knew about it.
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Offline grandduchess_42

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 05:55:47 PM »
true!
thanks again sarushka!
So keep me awake for every moment
Give us more time to be this way
We can't stay like this forever
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. Josh Groban .

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2007, 08:06:13 PM »
Given the closeness of the girls, I find it hard the others would not have known of Maria's sentiments about Tobolsk.  They may have even echoed it.  When in their early exile, the family was finally left in peace and allowed to be the simple and unassuming family they were never able to become as the IF.  I believe Alix and Nicholas even looked foward to a possible life in the English countryside, living normally and simply.  Though there is a twinge of sadness in her sentiment (when she uttered the words, life had become increasingly hard and hopeless), it seems like the mother and home maker in Maria was coming out.   
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2007, 08:50:31 PM »
When in their early exile, the family was finally left in peace and allowed to be the simple and unassuming family they were never able to become as the IF.  I believe Alix and Nicholas even looked foward to a possible life in the English countryside, living normally and simply.  Though there is a twinge of sadness in her sentiment (when she uttered the words, life had become increasingly hard and hopeless), it seems like the mother and home maker in Maria was coming out.   

I can definitely agree with that. I don't even find Maria's remark all that sad. It's fairly safe to assume that the IF didn't enjoy being held captive, but it must have been nice in a sense to be allowed to simply be a family for once. Nicholas certainly seemed to enjoy being free from his official obligations. He even mentions in his diary that he's finally able to catch up on his reading...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 08:53:27 PM by Sarushka »
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2007, 10:33:43 AM »
I have read that quote before, and find it very easy to believe that she said that. It sounds like something Marie would say. She was always indeed the girl who loved home, who would have been quite happy with a simple kind of life, despite her status. It's not sad at all, it is merely that perhaps Tobolsk seemed more settled for her than their previous months at the Alexander Palace had been. It must have seemed nice to have things be settled for a while. I think that's why she made that remark. As well, she didn't know the future, it was uncertain, and in this uncertainty, as long as they were in Tobolsk, things might have seemed more certain.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2007, 12:49:34 PM »
When in their early exile, the family was finally left in peace and allowed to be the simple and unassuming family they were never able to become as the IF.  I believe Alix and Nicholas even looked foward to a possible life in the English countryside, living normally and simply.  Though there is a twinge of sadness in her sentiment (when she uttered the words, life had become increasingly hard and hopeless), it seems like the mother and home maker in Maria was coming out.   

I can definitely agree with that. I don't even find Maria's remark all that sad. It's fairly safe to assume that the IF didn't enjoy being held captive, but it must have been nice in a sense to be allowed to simply be a family for once. Nicholas certainly seemed to enjoy being free from his official obligations. He even mentions in his diary that he's finally able to catch up on his reading...

I disagree, actually. It's either in Gibbes's account or in one of Nicholas's diary entries (I think the latter), where he records on one winter's day how the city's youth were speeding past the Governor's Mansion in troikas or sleighs, bells merrily ringing, while OTMA stood at the windows and watched sadly. After their happy years at Tsarskoe Selo, years that seem to have been spent in an endless round of social engagements, there's no question but that the children of the last tsar were plagued by serious bouts of boredom and even depression during their imprisonment in Tobolsk. As I recall, that's basically what Alexei recorded in his diary day after day during the entire period of their captivity in the Siberian town: "Boring!" and "Same as yesterday."
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2007, 01:56:49 PM »
I definitely don't contest that there were periods of boredom, depression, and uncertainty during the IF's tenure in Siberia. Maria said she'd content to remain in Tobolsk, but that shouldn't be construed to mean that she was unaffected by her status as a prisoner. (And for the record, I realize Elisabeth said nothing of the sort -- I'm just using her post as a spring board.) IMO, if Maria was allowed to be a normal citizen of Tobolsk, free from imperial obligation, and free from her family's captors, she might very well have been content to spend her life there. I think that's likely all she meant -- not that she wouldn't mind spending her life under guard in the governor's mansion.


I would still argue that there was a sort of relief for NAOTMAA in being freed from the scrutiny and obligations of royalty, although it was certainly offset to a significant degree by by their immediate arrest. It's a case of trading one type of stress for another, and one type of freedom for another. The Romanovs shed the stress of being held responsible for the nation at the same time they took on the difficult and limiting role as prisoners. The situation has a certain similarity to the way many caretakers often feel when a beloved relative dies after a long illness -- bereft and grief-stricken, yet relieved that both their own responsibility and the victim's suffering are over.
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2007, 04:49:33 PM »
Undoubtedly, there was boredom indeed. I think they had previously lived a sheltered rather quiet existence, so it was not as much of an adjustment as it might have been for some royal children. Tobolsk was not the best place to be, but it might have seemed a calm in a interval of the storm. More than that, there were no memories there for either Marie or any other Romanovs. They were living the present, unlike how it had been when they were still in their palaces, when they must have been only too aware of the contrast between the life they had lived in these very same surroundings, and their life now. Marie was most likely the least unaffected of the girls by the conditions of their imprisonment in my opinion.

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2007, 07:56:18 PM »
Undoubtedly, there was boredom indeed. I think they had previously lived a sheltered rather quiet existence, so it was not as much of an adjustment as it might have been for some royal children.

Good point.  Golden cage, iron cage.  Didn't matter because they never were "free."  Boredom had to happen, but it certainly also happened when they were still the IF.   
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Offline Raegan

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Re: Was Maria sad?
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2007, 06:45:51 AM »
Undoubtedly, there was boredom indeed. I think they had previously lived a sheltered rather quiet existence, so it was not as much of an adjustment as it might have been for some royal children.

I disagree. Of course the children were sheltered to a certain extend given their positions, but I really don't think you can compare their lives before the revolution to imprisonment! Remember their world before their father's abdication -- they went to ballets, small parties and traveled throughout the year to places they enjoyed. I *do* think that captivity would have been a great shock to them, despite how well they may have handled it.

Quote
Golden cage, iron cage.


I think there is a big difference between the two.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 06:54:25 AM by Raegan »