Author Topic: Anna Anderson and Anastasia  (Read 181954 times)

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Offline Alexa

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #540 on: October 15, 2004, 09:10:08 AM »
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If anything, Anna Anderson seems to have gone out of her way to lose friends and alienate people. Her behavior was often not only damaging to other people, but also intensely self-destructive. In addition, we have the testimony of so many people that she never seemed to be acting a role. All of this makes me think that Anna Anderson, whether she was Franziska Schanzkowska or someone else, was not completely insincere in her insistence that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna... on some level, she must have believed it herself, or come to believe it.  I know that some chronic PTSD sufferers do have major problems with identity (dissociation or loss of self), but I've never read about such a complex case before. Whoever Anna Anderson was, she was a genuine mystery.
 


Just a idea that popped into my head while reading this.  Is is possible that AA, due to PTSD, suffered amnesia of some sort (tyring to forget everything related to her trauma) so she really didn't know who she was.  Susequently, when people said she looked like a GD, she subconsiously decided she was becuase being a GD would be better than facing whatever nightmare she had been through?

Alexa

rskkiya

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #541 on: October 15, 2004, 09:36:10 AM »
 :) Well stated!
This has been my general notion for quite some time!
r

Offline Michelle

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #542 on: October 15, 2004, 11:31:10 AM »
Wow! :o  This PTSD thing is most certainly FASCINATING!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #543 on: October 19, 2004, 07:01:35 PM »
The other day I was doing some serious thinking about this whole "AA"- Anastasia issue, and literature that I had read [on the subject]. I came up with some thoughts that I wanted to run by all of you, just to see what you think.
    It seems to me that one of the greatest pieces of evidence [in Anna Anderson's favour] is the way that she behaved in regard to work/employment.  It is also a strong piece of evidence against Anna Anderson having been Franziska Schanskowska.
    I have read [in a number of books on the subject] that one of the greatest problems the exiled Russian royals experienced was their utter lack of awareness that people were supposed to hold jobs and support themselves. In Russia none of them had ever worked at any job except serving in the military and the government. In exile none of them "found direction," in the sense of employment. One author has written that Kyril had no job except being "pretender."
    However mentally unstable they may be, a working class person (like Franziska) is always, by nature, going to go and out and look for some sort of job [to support themself].
    Anna Anderson's behavior is striking, in that she behaved exactly as the [other] exiled grand dukes and duchesses did. Even in times when she was poor and destitute the thought of going out and finding any kind of employment WHATSOEVER never seems to have crossed her mind. In other words, she behaved exactly as one would expect a displaced grand duchess to behave, and exactly opposite of how a "working girl" would act.
    This seems to be a glaring example of subconscious behavior revealing, at least, what socio-economic class of people she came from.

Offline Michelle

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #544 on: October 20, 2004, 08:23:23 AM »
That is very insightful, ISteinke.  *applause* :)

Offline Alexa

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #545 on: October 20, 2004, 08:43:45 AM »
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....Anna Anderson's behavior is striking, in that she behaved exactly as the [other] exiled grand dukes and duchesses did. Even in times when she was poor and destitute the thought of going out and finding any kind of employment WHATSOEVER never seems to have crossed her mind. In other words, she behaved exactly as one would expect a displaced grand duchess to behave, and exactly opposite of how a "working girl" would act.
     This seems to be a glaring example of subconscious behavior revealing, at least, what socio-economic class of people she came from.


I tend to disagree that AA's lack of motivation to find a means of self-support an argument that she was AN.  I once knew someone (who ended up marrying and soon after got divorced from a very good friend of mine) who had the same narsacistic self-entitlement issues that AA did.  This woman displayed through her actions her belief that for the lone reason that she existed that everything should be handed to her.  It was her God given right that the world revolve around her, and God put the rest of us on this planet to serve and support her.   Nothing was ever good enough.  And if she didn't get her way, she would begin to manipulate the poor unsuspecting souls who were her friends in order to achieve what she wanted (to not work, not have to worry about paying rent, putting her own needs before that of anyone else's including her own child).  She is not a woman who grew up in the lap of luxury.  In fact, she was at the most lower-middle income while growing up, but I would say more likely she would have been considered lowincome.  And yet, she still had the attitude that she deserved all the benefits of working toward a goal of any kind without having to put in any effort.  Like I said, she existed, and therefore she deserved it, more so than the next person who did work for what they got, and how dare that person have more of anything (happienes, money, material things or any kind) than she.

So, to cut my rambing off before I go too far (if I haven't already) my point is, you don't have to be born rich or royal to be born with a sense of self entitlement.  Narcasism is psycological issue that anyone born to any family can have.

Alexa

rskkiya

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #546 on: October 20, 2004, 08:47:50 AM »
ISteinke

  Well you comments about the "work dynamic" are very interesting and thoughtful - but I think a bit off.
  Many of the Romanov women were able to create jobs for themselves as fashion designers or perfume designers, trading in on their exotic history...Of course the great depression put paid to any greater success that they might have had --when its hard to buy food few people will want designer clothes or cologne! I know of many individuals who have no apparent understanding or ability to find work --and to my knowledge none of them are Royal or members of a pampered Nobility!  8)
  A woman who is mentally unstable may have no real comprehension of the mudane dynamics of getting work, and buying food, shelter and clothing--simply because she is mentally unstable!

good point tho'
Rskkiya
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #547 on: October 20, 2004, 10:56:22 AM »
Since Anna Anderson was pretending to be Anastasia, [if believing the DNA]  she couldn't very well break out of the mold of being a royal and then expect her peers to believe she was royal.

I think the "post traumatic stress disorder " is a good path to take when trying to understand Anna Anderson.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #548 on: October 20, 2004, 12:07:33 PM »
Sorry. Here I go, again,  changing the topic from the mental state of Anna Anderson to something else.  But,  I thought this should be over on this thread:

Quote

Annie-

To be absolutely correct she never claimed to Anastasia until she had been erroneously identified by another patient as Tatiana-the facts don't allow anything further than that statement, so the idea that someone "gave her the idea first" is just opinion.

The records included previous reports, but the important thing is that they confirm that FS sustained no physical injuries, nor in her examination were any marks, scars, or deformations noted during a careful examination (nor in any of the exams that followed over the next 3-4 years).  The story that she suffered these injuries seems to have cropped up in the 1920s when the Berlin police detective attempted to prove that AA was FS, and needed to explain the scars.  Why no one consulted the records during the period before the war I couldn't say, and they were presumed lost after WWII, but were not.

Greg King


Quote

Annie, just because it's new doesn't mean it isn't correct.  Penny and myself had the extreme good fortune to be allowed to see FS's complete medical files from 1915-16-1920, which no one had ever viewed before.  And they detail extensively that she suffered no injuries (among a number of other important things).

By the way, AA never claimed first to be Tatiana, then switched to Anastasia-it was a fellow patient who erroneously identified her as Tatiana.

Greg King


I thought there were scars which proved she had been stabbed by a guard trying to kill her if she was Anastasia or  piece of metal from some explosion in the factory if she was FS???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Antonio_P.Caballer

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #549 on: October 20, 2004, 12:42:02 PM »
Greg,

Then, if you have seen Franziska´s medical files, and there´s nothing said about the feet malformation(for example), it´s not possible that Anna was Franziska, no?

I might be mistaken, but did not the DNA test stated that Anna was related to Franziska´s family? Really, the more i learn about this whole subject the less i know or even understand it.

Now, IMHO, whoever Anna was, i don´t think she was Franziska.

Offline Angie_H

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #550 on: October 20, 2004, 03:36:35 PM »
I know there have been discussions regarding AA & AN's photos for comparison and there is the DNA evidence. Can anyone list things that AA did or said that made people believe or not-believe her? And why are there those who said Ernst went to Russia and those who say he didn't? I never know what to believe when it comes to that  ???
Angie

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #551 on: October 21, 2004, 11:25:28 AM »
Here are some more thoughts on Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanskowska

    According to research done and documented by Peter Kurth, Anna Anderson spoke French well enough to be able to converse fluently with hotel staff. Also, she could play the piano beautifully, and had a wide knowledge of many different subjects. By all acounts FS was barely educated at all.
     I could by the idea that someone may have fed her "memories" of life at the imperial court. However, the ability to speak fluent French and to play the piano beautifully is a skill acquired over time, and with much effort. It can be documented that Anna Anderson, after Feb. 17, 1920, never took french or piano lessons. These were skills that she already possessed at that time.
      One has to take into account the life of a peasant/worker. Peasants/working class people, in that time as well as now, are invariably so occupied making a living, that they don't have time to learn "the finer things in life." The definition of "liberal arts" in ancient times had to do with occupations that "free-born" or wealthy persons, unhindered by work and poverty, are able to engage in. FS would never have had the money or time in her life to study these things.
      DNA or no, the ability of Anna Anderson to do skilled things, which FS would never have had the time to have learned, has to be explained.

rskkiya

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #552 on: October 21, 2004, 11:32:17 AM »
Most of the information that I have read about Fransiska S. (A.A.) point out that as a child she loved to read history and that piano lessons were often offered at schools...
Many people have remarked that she seemed to speak no language very well and the French comments that I am aware of are from late in her career as a "pretender" so to speak.

R.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #553 on: October 22, 2004, 12:22:22 PM »
An interesting conversation continues over on another thread.  Just click on AGRBear on top of quote and it'll take you over to that thread.

Quote
I remember the first time I had read there might be a connection between Georg Karl Grossmann and  Franziska Schamzkovski [sp. used in the book] and the possible connection to Anna Anderson.

Book is:
Encyclopedia of Murder by Colin Wilson and Patricia Pitman, Printed 1962  pps. 243-44.

The book tells us that Grossmann was a serial killer who lived in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus.....  The police found a "trussed-up"  body of a female recently butchered in Grossmann's kitchen.

The serial cases became known as "Die Braut auf der Stulle"  [Bread and Butter Brides" which refers to many of his victimes having been "companions of the night known in Berlin as "brides"].

The police think that Franziska was murdered by Grossmann and the police records show they told Schamzkovski family on 13 Aug 1920 due to the entry in Grossmann's diary.... Yep,  he kept a diary and list of his victims.  The name he wrote was "Sasnovski".

I remember when I read that Grossmann had hung himself in his cell,  I thought,  "Well,  wasn't that conventient for everyone."

It is thought Grossmann may have killed more than 50 females.

GRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #554 on: October 22, 2004, 02:09:07 PM »
Just going to repost this point of view for those who missed it in the long thread.

http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm