Author Topic: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia  (Read 144679 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2005, 03:49:02 PM »
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"Monarkhia Pered Khrusheniem."


When was this book published?

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2005, 04:29:52 PM »
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When was this book published?


V.P. Semenikov. Moscow/Leningrad 1927.
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2005, 04:49:59 PM »
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V.P. Semenikov. Moscow/Leningrad 1927.


Thanks. I was just wondering whether this was a known fact early on, or if this information came out much later...

Offline strom

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2006, 02:18:04 PM »
Thank you JM.  It is expressly stated in the book by S.A.R. le Prince Alexis d'Anjou, who claimed to be the grandson of GD Maria Nicoleavna of Russia, in his book Moi, Alexis, that the Grand Duke Ernest made two trips to the Alexander Palace late in WWI to try to arrange a settlement between Russia and Germany.  The first visit is presumed to be in early November 1917 which was ruined by the precipitous announcement by the German government that Poland was an independant country!  It may be that this visit lasted a few days.  The second visit was in February 1917 and it was essentially to tell the Russian imperial couple that if they did not quickly turn the Russian government towards a rapproachment with Germany, Germany would do anything and everything to see that Russia would be permanently destabilized!  The German plan was to consciously and deliberately support a state a permanent revolution in Russia in which the traditional life of the state would be utterly and irrevocably swept aside!  This visit may only have lasted a few hours!  The Grand Duke is reported to have said to his sister, the Empress, after delivering the shocking and horrifying German plan for Russia that she was no longer the 'Sunny' he had always remembered!
      
     I think there is now too much evidence for this intervention of the House of Hesse.  The fact is that it was the inadvertant revelation of this trip (s) through the woman latterly known as Anna Anderson Manahan that led to so much of the controversy in which her life was embroiled.  She herself was the first to regret her own indiscretion!          

Offline strom

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2006, 02:18:38 PM »
Thank you JM.
     It is expressly stated in the book by S.A.R. le Prince Alexis d'Anjou, who claimed to be the grandson of GD Maria Nicoleavna of Russia, in his book Moi, Alexis, that the Grand Duke Ernest made "two trips" to Russia late in WWI.  The first visit is presumed to be in early November 1917 and was arranged through Rubenstein, the banker to the Imperial family.  The Grand Duke was attempting to arrange a settlement between Russia and Germany.  It may be that he also wanted to warn his sister and brother-in-law that a Russian retirement from the War would help to save the ruling Romanov dynasty of Russia!  Ernest certainly would have understood how much this could likely lead to a German victory, stalemate or draw in the Western theatre of the war.  However, the Emperor Nicholas would not countenance the abandonment of his allies!  However, what really ruined the visit of Ernie was the precipitous announcement by the German government at that very time that Poland would become an independant monarchy under the sovereignty of the Prince of Saxe!  Nicolas and Alexandra were enraged.  It was either an accident of bad timing or a deliberate sabotaging of the mission of the Grand Duke through a manipulation of the offices of the German government.  I suspect that other forces besides the military in Germany did not want the Grand Duke to succeed even in the least possible way.  Finally, all that the humiliated Grand Duke could say to his sister, the Empress, was that she was no longer the 'Sunny' he had always remembered!  This visit may only have lasted a few hours!  The second 'visit' occured in the days of late February 1917 as the Revolution began to grip St. Petersburg.  The Grand Duke apparently journeyed into the Baltics as close as he safely could and was able to secret a few letters to the Russian Imperial couple!    
      
     I think there is now too much evidence for these attempted interventions by the Grand Duke of Hesse.  It appears from my various readings that all of the Royal Houses of Europe were informed.   
     The fact is that it was the inadvertant revelation of this trip (s) through the woman latterly known as Anna Anderson Manahan that led to so much of the controversy in which her life was embroiled.  She herself was the first to regret her own indiscretion!          
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by strom »

Offline Helen

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2006, 01:53:15 AM »
If you think this thread offensive, then why did you drag it up?

This guest poster WAS actaully looking for solid facts. This thread started with the question whether any forum member knew of professional research done into Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig's activities related to the IF's stay at Yekatarinburg and their fate. The initial question of this thread may have been prompted by an unproven rumour - a pleonasm, I know :-\ - but the poster's request for information about any professional research in itself was a valid one and remains a valid one. And why wouldn't it? Similar research has been done into American activities in Siberia around 1918.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 02:01:35 AM by Helen »
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2007, 11:49:41 AM »
Over on the King and Wilson site,  I have once, again,  posted about the visit, which I believe took place, by Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse took to Russia in 1916.

http://www.kingandwilson.com/forum/read.php?105,2703,2710#msg-2710

Because AA was the one who repeated the story does not mean this proves she was GD Anastasia, since she was not the only one who knew about this trip.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 11:53:28 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2007, 01:21:39 PM »
There seem to be several recent threads that have touched on this topic, but I've started a new one in the hopes that we can confine as much discussion here as possible. 

We are already discussing this on the kingandwilson board -- and we thought I should link here to the collection of statements and evidence that we put together -- and Greg wrote up -- since it's a comprehensive accounting of who said what to whom and when:

http://www.kingandwilson.com/ErnstLudwig1916/




« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 01:23:23 PM by Penny_Wilson »
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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2007, 02:00:05 PM »
Blast blast blast!  For some reason I assumed (and I don't know why) that the alleged visit was late 1916 rather than early..............To be honest I doubt it makes much difference from the British Foreign Office point of view as their records are indexed annually so if there were any references I should have picked them up.

But I will run a further check Saturday.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2007, 08:46:42 PM »
I am one who does not believe that Ernst went to Russia in 1916.

Having said that, should incontrovertible evidence be produced that he did, what will it do to prove that Anna Andersen was Anastasia? If the rumor that he had done this was current in emigre circles and among members of the German nobility, then she could have picked up the information from other sources, yes? So it is tainted as a proof of identity.

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in the alleged trip. I am just not interested in it as something that has to do with Anna Andersen's claim.

I am also curious about this accusation/disclosure/whev as the basis of Ernst Ludwig's "hatred" of Andersen. Why focus so much energy upon a sick little imposter, if that mouthy little Kronprinzessin Cecile was telling everyone that he had gone? I mean, no one was saying that Cecile wasn't Cecile, so she must have been far more dangerous a source . . .

Thanks is advance for whatever information you can post, Phil T. and Ms. Wilson.

Simon
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2007, 09:16:31 PM »
Like Simon, I have nevber given much credence to the Ernst visit either. However, Penny's post certainly does  give room for questions about it.  But what difference would it make? Cecelie is the last person I would  take as a serious source. That woman was bizarre in her own right.
 What so many seem to ignore is that these royals were surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands of staff & servants, from all over thier realms.  A horde of silent, faceless people. They knew where all the skeletons were and if anyone had something to tell, just to survive, they had  the info.  They certainly were not bound by loyalty  after the fall of the monarchies, so why have they not be heard from ?  Perhaps there was nothing to tell?
I have posited this in the past and it seems to get ignored, but the staff ALWAYS knows what goes on.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2007, 09:23:47 PM »
Robert,

All due respect to Penny and Greg, but I must concur and add that the Imperial Secret Police attached to Nicholas, Spridovitch's men, and the Okharana would have had to have bee "in on it". No one, but no one,entered into the Imperial Family's presence without being recorded. Just didn't happen...the records from Ernie's previous visits are there..subsequent visits should be as well.. As you said, a hundred plus people would have known if he had visited.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2007, 09:40:59 PM »
Actually, Rob, neither Greg nor I have any real opinion as yet whether or not Ernie went to Russia.  We'll obviously each have to come to a conclusion on the subject before publishing our bio of Ernie -- but we haven't got to that point yet.

Insofar as this issue "concerns" the AA case -- and I'm not sure that it does -- we offer our collection of the testimony to the discussion.

~Penny
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2007, 09:55:57 PM »
I don't see this having anything "really" to do with the AA case. Either it happened or it didn't Penny. So offer the proof it did. thats all I meant really. Lets see the Palace archive records, eyewitness first hand accounts, etc...

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Alleged 1916 Visit to Russia
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2007, 10:23:46 PM »
Um -- why do I have to offer proof of anything?  I'm just contributing a collection of testimony for a discussion thread on this site.  Some might see this as proof, some might not.  It is what it is.  Take it or leave it.  As I've said, I have no opinion on the subject as yet.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins