Author Topic: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?  (Read 15647 times)

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Offline Belochka

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It is time that we initiate a fresh thread where we can discuss Gapon.

How and why was he able to influence the factory workers in the first place, and maintain his superior position over the workers until that fateful Sunday?

Which factors contributed to his murder?

And finally, what were the poltical and social consequences of Bloody Sunday?

Margarita
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Offline vladm

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 11:57:53 PM »
Thank you Margarita for the new thread, I agree its time to narrow down search.
Btw, anyone had a chance to see his autobiography: The story of my life, by Father Gapon, London: Chapman & Hall, 1906.

Book written in English, and printed from his word in 1906
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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 08:25:12 AM »
Vladm,

Do you have a copy of this book?

It would be interesting to read about Gapon in his own words.


Offline Belochka

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 07:49:00 PM »
Thank you Margarita for the new thread, I agree its time to narrow down search.
Btw, anyone had a chance to see his autobiography: The story of my life, by Father Gapon, London: Chapman & Hall, 1906.

Book written in English, and printed from his word in 1906

Thank you Vladm! I purchased a tired copy from New Zealand. I was not aware that his book was translated into English.

What I do have is the very recent Russian language publication by Djanibekian, V. G. "Gapon Revolutionary in a Cassock" (Джанибекян, В., Гапон Революцинер в Рясе) who has provided numerous extracts from Gapon's bio as well as a number of other key personalities of the day from both sides of the political sphere. Newspaper extracts are also provided to present a better impression of the events that lead to Bloody Sunday and its aftermath.

I am not aware of Djanibekian's political affiliations, but this new historian has just released this month a new book about Petr Stolypin: "The Mystery of Stolypin's Murder" (Тайна убийства Столыпина) which I am waiting to receive from Moscow.

Gapon is not a person whom I admire but he is a key historic figure in 1905.

Margarita
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Offline vladm

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 10:45:15 PM »
Thank you Margarita for the new thread, I agree its time to narrow down search.
Btw, anyone had a chance to see his autobiography: The story of my life, by Father Gapon, London: Chapman & Hall, 1906.

Book written in English, and printed from his word in 1906

Thank you Vladm! I purchased a tired copy from New Zealand. I was not aware that his book was translated into English.
...................
Gapon is not a person whom I admire but he is a key historic figure in 1905.

Margarita
  :)


Margarita,
Book was written originally in English, and only in 1925 Russian translated reprint was published in Berlin.
Actually Russian version priced like 5 times more (for no reason), because in Russia no one cares about revolution anymore.
 
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 08:36:46 AM »
Margarita,
Book was written originally in English, and only in 1925 Russian translated reprint was published in Berlin.

Vladm,

I was puzzled as to why Gapon would write his memoirs in London in English, and after some searching I believe I may solved this minor puzzle.

Gapon during May-June, 1905 dictated  his memoirs which originally appeared in translation in the English language. (В мае-июне 1905 продиктовал свои воспоминания, которые первоначально вышли в переводе на английском языке.)

[Ref: http://www.referator.com/books/25/100/8]
 
Margarita
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Offline vladm

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 09:38:46 PM »
Margarita,
here the timeline for you, I think it will be interesting to examine:
http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/Rus/Rus02.htm
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 05:09:05 PM »
Many thanks for this timeline Vladm!

In very concise terms the timeline illustrates how civil unrest increased after Bloody Sunday.

I disagree that Gapon was that "naïve"  after he became involved in "compromising intrigues". He knew exactly why he went to Switzerland to meet up with Plekhanov and Lenin and he willingly accepted funds from the Japanese government.

Margarita
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Offline vladm

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 07:44:54 PM »
Margarita,
I think, we underestimating Gapon, all together. But the same time, a lot of facts contradict with each other.
Without being spy, he would not be able to move to SPb. Back then, he need an official transfer for that type of move. But for sure, he followed his own agenda. I think he manipulated Secret Police, and Socialist Party for his own benefits. That we could agree on.

Reason, why he went to Geneva, I think he was basically scared, he probably didn't had a blessing from Secret Police, but he was running from them, because events of the January 1905 went out of control.

I have no idea what was in original plan, but he should had an agreement with Secret Police, and demonstration should not exist in the first place. Idea to keep crowd pro monarchist, I think, too simple. If secret police, would have a copy of the petition, prior to demonstration, it would be enough to put everyone who participate in writing, to jail for the long time, and associates would end up in Siberia.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 10:56:01 PM by Alixz »
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 10:52:16 PM »
....I think he manipulated Secret Police, and Socialist Party for his own benefits. That we could agree on.

Again we agree Vlam!

Semyon Rappoport, a revolutionary wrote about his encounter with Gapon. Rappoport asked him whether he had close relations with Zubatov, to which Gapon allegedly replied: "Never! never! I from the very beginning lead them all by the nose. [водил их всех за нос] Otherwise nothing could have been achieved. On this my entire plan was formed!" Then the conversation centered on the revelation that the revolutionaries in Geneva were fully appraised of his plans.


... Reason, why he went to Geneva, I think he was basically scarred, he probably didn't had a blessing from Secret Police, but he was running from them, because events of the January 1905 went out of control.

Gapon fled to Geneva, arriving illegally at the end of January to meet comrades Plekhanov and later Lenin. His pal, Ruttenberg kindly provided the addresses. How he got around the city without any knowledge of French or German is intriguing. Boris Savinkov was also a welcome guest at Plekhanov's apartment that same evening. His journey to my mind had served two purposes: to liase with the socialists and in so doing, to protect himself at a distance away from the claws of the Okhrana.

Gapon's primary objective to reach Geneva was not indicative of a scared man - it was a man with a determined mission.

Whilst in Geneva on 7 February he wrote his call for the workers to bring about an armed revolt against the Emperor. Whilst in the same stirring mood he then penned an extraordinarily rude letter to Nikolai II, refering to his Majesty as «Ты» ("you" in the first person), concluding his letter by informing the Emperor that copies of this letter were also sent to the revolutionary-terrorist organizers inside Russia.

Margarita
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 10:07:48 AM »
Since I do not have the book,  I find the lines you are giving us from his book as most informative.

Please,  tell us more of what Gapon tells us in his book.

Thanks.

AGRBear
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Offline vladm

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 04:15:13 PM »
Thank you Binky,
Here the link to wiki page on Pinhas Rutenberg (Peter Rutenberg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhas_Rutenberg

from wiki, I would disagree with a statement:
"The plant was a center of the Assembly of Russian Factory and Plant Workers, founded by a popular working class leader, Father George Gapon in 1903."
Simply, why spy from Secret Police, would establish revolutionary foundation?
I think, story was a bit different, and I am ego to find out from Margaritas report, after she will read it from Gapons autobiography.
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Offline Binky

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2007, 05:33:17 AM »
Oh thank you too Vladm.  And here's the wiki link on Elizabeth Dilling.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Dilling     I know how you all like to know things about authros.

I know they call her "virulently anti-semitic" but I don't think she was.  She just wanted to protect America from a big Jewry conspiracy and Roosevelt's socialist agenda.  And that thing they wrote about trying her for sedition.  Well the judge died so I really don't think it counts.

And this thing Belochka says about Rutenberg being Gapon's pal just like Dilling says.  Well I sat down for a minute to think about that.  Here's what I came up with:

To call Rutenberg and Gapon “pals” is an egregious over-simplification of a complex relationship that evolved in extraordinary circumstances.  Such an over-simplification might be good for punctuating an ideological point, but it is of little use in understanding history.

Gapon had not welcomed the revolutionaries into his movement, instead believing that working with state authorities was the most effective means of addressing the plight of the workers.  Even when he eventually had to admit revolutionaries, it was because the spreading awareness of his complicity with the police was beginning to undermine his credibility as someone interested in the workers’ welfare.  Gapon was confronted with a choice of admitting revolutionaries into his organization or watching the workers be peeled away by more radical advocates.  And the revolutionaries who were admitted held Gapon in open contempt, quickly moving to co-opt his agenda and to marginalize him.

The personal bond between Gapon and Rutenberg was forged on Bloody Sunday, when Rutenberg rescued Gapon from the melee, thereby possibly saving his life.  As was discussed elsewhere, Bloody Sunday left Gapon devastated and disoriented.  All the stars he had steered by up until then – belief in the tsar’s ultimate goodness if he only knew the truth, belief that the bureaucracy was the real problem, and belief that working within the system was best – shifted in the firmament when the troops opened fire on the marchers.

Yes, Gapon fled the country on the heels of Rutenberg.  But, naive as Gapon was in many ways, rather than joining with Rutenberg and others in a revolutionary movement, Gapon began trying to convince Rutenberg to join with him in becoming a police agent.  In fact, it was this attempt – and the revelation that Gapon was still in touch with the tsar’s police from abroad – that spawned the plot to murder Gapon.  And one of the four plotters, Yevno Azef, was himself revealed in 1908 to be an Okhrana double agent.

You are really going to have to do better than simply labeling Gapon and Rutenberg “pals” to build a case that Gapon ever became truly committed to revolution . . . and you’re certainly going to have to do better to show that he had been so before Bloody Sunday.
______________

When one's interpretation of events lines up so nicely with a racist crank such as Elizabeth Dilling, one really might consider going back to the drawing board.  Just a thought.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2007, 06:47:55 AM »
Whilst working on my Rasputin notes I could not ignore a few commonalities between him and Gapon.

Gapon was a man of the cloth. His name during the Soviet period was transformed into to a historical example of a “political provocateur”. He became associated with the so called first revolution.

Rasputin, while not a man of the cloth, was a man with fervent religious convictions was associated with bringing on the second revolution.

What is intriguing that both were murdered and after their deaths no traces of their remains exist.

Margarita
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Re: Gapon - Who was he? What were the consequences of Bloody Sunday?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 02:42:25 PM »
At long last, my copy of Spiridovitch's "History of Russian Terrorism" has arrived!

Just started tearing into it re: Gapon.
pg. 207: "Nobody had the idea then at the time (9 Jan. 1905) that Gapon had played the role of traitor. It was some long time later that Gapon admitted that he had known, in inciting the workers to go before the Tsar with their petition, that the authorities would never permit the demonstration; he also knew that they would bring in the troops against the workers, and all the same, he still urged them to demonstrate and in fact insisted they do so.  His genuine intention was to prove to the workers, in light of the measures which were to be taken against them, that the Tsar was not really protecting them and that the workers could never really hope to have any assistance coming from either the Tsar or his ministers."

pg. 215 "The (Socialist-Revolutionary) party as such had not taken part in the Gapon movement, however certain of its members had made a common cause with him.  Thus also many of the workers who were members of the party were also found among the crowds filling the streets; Rutenberg, member of the party, had gotten to know Gapon some days before 9 January, and was almost never separated from Gapon during those days. It was in fact Rutenberg who had chosen the route the marchers would follow including Gapon himself, and it was also Rutenberg who came up with the suggestion that, in case the troops began to fire, to erect barricades, to seize the arms depots and to clear the streets, at all costs, to the Palace. In the march itself, Rutenberg was found next to Gapon; they fled together after the conflct with the troops to the Narva Gate.  Rutenberg helped Gapon to disguise himself in civilian clothes and took refuge with him in the home of Maxim Gorky and went, still with him, to the meeting organised the same evening by the intelligentsia of the Free Society of economic sciences.  Finally, Rutenberg himself drafted, along with Gapon, the first proclamation of the workers dated at midnight 9 January 1905.
      This proclamation written by Rutenberg pleased Gapon so much that at one point he suggested Rutenberg should write everything in his name that he deemed appropriate and whenever he saw fit, and Gapon, to underscore this idea, gave him a number of blank pages already bearing his signature."
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 09:54:06 AM by Forum Admin »