Jewish Pogroms

No problem   :- )     Actually, if you search the keyword pogrom here in the Forum and restrict the search to only the Nicholas II thread and Imperial Russian History Thread, you will have good results, with specific sources cited.  There was a long discussion on the issue under a thread about whether Nicholas II was anti-semitic or not.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1225.msg324953;topicseen#msg324953

The FACT is that the file and documentary records show Nicholas II ordered an immediate stop to pogroms and gave medals and awards to those who stopped or prevented Pogroms ( I direct you specifically to just two examples: the murder of Stolypin, Spiridovitch "Les Dernieres Annees..." Vol 2. Ch. 4:
"P.A. Stolypin died on September 5th at 5 o'clock in the evening.
   Once the news of his death was known, the popular  centers were beginning to display a blame toward the Jews.  A pogrom was going to erupt.  Although he was orthodox, Bogrov was Jewish in origin, and that was enough to give rise to a hatred toward the Jews.  "The Jews have killed Stolypin. Kill the Jews" was heard throughout the city.  Governor Guirs and Kuliabko did everything possible to prevent a pogrom.  They both held great influence among the right wing organizations, although these same organizations say the Governor General as a partisan of Jews and had little confidence in him.
   The police patrols circulating in the streets hardly frightened the crowds.  They could only calm them and prevent vengence against the Jews for the assassination of the minister by telling them that the Emperor wished that there not be a pogrom, and that he would be greatly upset if one happened.  I witnessed this myself, as I had not left for Tchernigov, and so I was asked by Kurlov to help Kuliabkov to assist in calming the crowds and to persuade them from starting a pogrom.
   Count Kokovtzev told me much later that the Tsar had thanked him most warmly in Kiev for having succeeded, as he had replaced the murdered Stolypin, in preventing a pogrom, and had even embraced him, a sign of personal recognition."). (emphasis added)
and 2:
Re: Kishniev Pogrom of 1903:
Plevhe was involved in the Kishnev pogrom of 1903.  April 6, 1903, the first day of Orthodox Easter, rumors spread in Kishnev that a ritual killing took place in nearby town of Dubossary by Jews during passover, and that in Kishnev itself a jewish doctor had tried to get blood for a passover ritual from a young servant girl.  The pogrom broke out just before noon that day.

Fontanka 16, pg. 233:
"By mid afternoon the governor R.S. von Raaben, issued orders to the police and military and by evening they had largely suppressed the pogrom.
     Groups opposed to the government laid the blame for the Kishnev pogrom on the authorities and in particular on the minister of the interior.

pg 234 "...Documents show that Plevhe, having received news of the pogrom from the local authorities, undertook all measures possible under the law to restore order.  He also reported to the Tsar about his supplementary measures: "Despite the summoning of the military and the arrest of more than 60 rioters, disorders continued.  The governor requested authority to impose measures of strengthened security.  I approved the request by telegram." [document in GARF 601/1/1046 sheet 2]
    Following the pacification of the outbreak, Plehve secured the Tsar's agreement to dismiss von Raaben because of his poor handling of the disturbances.  He sent his director of police, A.A. Lopukhin to Kishnev to investigate the conduct of the local authorities at the time of the pogroms.  Lopukhin did not discover any trances of premeditated preparation of the pogrom, but he concluded that the events could not have taken place without the participation of the lower police ranks.  The Gendarme officers seemed duplicitous. ... the minister [Plehve] frankly condemned the police in a report to Nicholas II."

There was no prohibition to Jews becoming doctors, merchants, administrators or many other trades that were lucrative.  As well there was not a prohibition to land ownership as long as it was within specified areas like ghettos.  But finance was attractive due to the fact that Christians were barred from lending money at interest.

I think you're kind of splitting hairs. Kind of but not completely. Most so-called Russian Jews were actually Polish Jews, living inside the Pale taken over by Russia under Catherine the Great. Polish Jews, until modern times, were not allowed by law to become landowners. They might have been allowed to own land in a ghetto, but what did that mean? You owned tenements. You didn't own farmland, you weren't a farmer...

As for becoming doctors and administrators, Jews' admission to higher education was often severely restricted. Of course, lots of Jews in the Russian empire did become merchants, and you're perfectly correct to point that out. Lots of Jews were actually quite successful in many professions. But the majority stayed mired in poverty in the Pale (where Hitler's Einsatzgruppen found them in 1941).

It's strange, I've never thought about it before but I'v never heard of a Russian Jew (I mean a Jew living in Russia proper, not the Pale) in the 18th or 19th century owning serfs. Which isn't to say that such cases didn't exist, but if they did, I suspect they were a rarity, the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps if a Jew converted to Orthodoxy he could become a landowner in the traditional sense, owning vast stretches of land and serfs, etc.? It would be interesting if anybody here knew more about this.

Well there weren't too many people of any other religion who owned estates and serfs in Russia who were not Russian Orthodox.  The exception may have been muslims who lived in muslim areas of the Russian empire.  And owning property in a ghetto is still better than not owning any property. 

I did a bit more research and until Alexander ll. Jews were allowed to own land but it was restricted.  Numerous Jews moved to Novorussiya (the lower part of the Ukraine where they were involved in farming and probably hired people.  Alexander ll brought in laws prohibiting Jews from owning property, having Christian servants or travel unrestrictedly.  Alexander lll was even more anti semitic.  In spite of this between 5 to 10% of the university places were filled by Jews.

Thanks, Constantinople! Lots of good points and useful information.

...and if they weren't allowed to own property...why are
thousands and thousands of Jews today claiming their property back from Poland !

They could own property in ghettos and shtetls in the Pale of Settlement, couldn't they? That's what made the Pale of Settlement unique in Europe: There were Jewish farmers! (Elsewhere in Europe Jews only lived in towns.)

Secondly, Jews eventually got full citizenship rights in the parts of Poland that were Austrian and Prussian.
And thirdly, Jews had full citizenship rights in the Second Polish Republic (during the world wars).

Probably most of the property that restitution is being sourght for was acquired by Polish Jews after the first world war when Poland had independence from Russia.  

Jews owned property before!

I was talking about the entire history of Jews in Poland
..starting from the very beginning>>>>>

I am one of the few who strongly encourages Everybody to make up their own mind,
but for you to be able to do that you need to read up on history! ! !

...read people read...the information is available to you,
and don't start with what's "posted" by a few,

google books is the perfect place to start!
;-)

I used most to refer to property inside and outside the ghettos as the Jews were not restricted to ghettos after 1918 to the best of my knowledge.  And I know Polish history quite well.  My godmother's ancestor was the last king of Poland.

Jews owned property before!

I was talking about the entire history of Jews in Poland
..starting from the very beginning>>>>>

I am one of the few who strongly encourages Everybody to make up their own mind,
but for you to be able to do that you need to read up on history! ! !

...read people read...the information is available to you,
and don't start with what's "posted" by a few,

google books is the perfect place to start!
;-)

Heavens to Betsy, I'm the first to admit I'm completely confused! Sorry if I imparted incorrect information in my earlier posts, but I was merely reporting on what I had read. However, I'd be foolish if I claimed to be some sort of expert on Polish history. So disregard all my previous remarks, read Polish history for yourselves, and make up your own minds, dear readers!

And now perhaps we should return to the topic at hand, i.e., pogroms in imperial Russia...?

The term "ghetto" originated from the name of the Jewish quarter in Venice, established in 1516, in which the Venetian authorities compelled the city's Jews to live. Various authorities, ranging from local municipal authorities to the Austrian Emperor Charles V, ordered the creation of other ghettos for Jews in Frankfurt, Rome, Prague, and other cities in the 16th and 17th centuries.


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005059

Beginning with the Egyptian bondage and continuing through the Assyrian deportation, the Babylonian captivity, and the great Diaspora, Jewish people have found themselves living among Gentiles of many nationalities (See Judaism, Development of). Originating from the Latin word for "nations," "Gentile" simply means any non-Jewish person.

Frequently, especially in Europe beginning in the Middle Ages, Gentiles established Jewish-only quarters of the city called ghettos. This was not a new concept. Way back in the time of the Exodus, Jewish people were confined to the "land of Goshen" while building bricks for the Egyptians. Although the term is now used in a more generic sense, it often was the custom to wall in the Jewish ghetto at night and to completely lock it off during Christian Holy Days to prevent mixing between Christians and Jews.

Even under these harsh and demeaning circumstances, Jewish leaders attempted to run their communities according to Talmudic law, providing for the especially poor and fostering Jewish study and scholarship.



http://www.answers.com/topic/ghetto

The basis of the anti Semitic views was the belief that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus.  The fact that Jesus was also Jewish does not seem to be taken into account at all, or the fact that if Jesus was Jewish then Christianity must be a sub sect of Judaism.  Christianity and Orthodox Christianity is full of hair splitting arguments about things like icons are OK and icons are anti Christian to the point where they fuelled wars.  There had always been a suspicion of Jews in most Christian societies and they proved to be useful scapegoats in superstitiously religious Imperial Russia.  The fact that Jews were attracted to finance and law made them especially dangerous in Christian society (all you have to do is look at the Merchant of Venice).

This is the information that has always confounded me.  Jesus was a Jew.  He was killed by the Romans and not by his own religious fellows.
Yes, Judas betrayed Him and Peter denied Him and they were also Jewish, but it was Pilate before whom he came to trial.  I know that Pilate gave the crowd the choice between Jesus and Barabbas and the crowd chose Barabbas, but in the end it was the Roman soldiers who carried out the Crucifixion which was the normal (at that time) way for Romans to execute someone.  There were rows and rows of the crucified beside and along the roads in Imperial Rome.  This was not a special death just for Jesus, after all there were two thieves crucified right up on the hill beside him.

It was the Romans who persecuted the newly minted Christians and forced them to live in the catacombs and executed them in the Colosseum.  Yet the Jews have taken the brunt of Christian anger for centuries.  Maybe that is because the Roman Empire no longer exists and Constantine eventually accepted the Christian Religion before he died.  Better to be safe than sorry, IMHO.

As the poster who originated this thread said - I have never understood the problem between any religious sect.  All seem to have the same premise of peace and brotherhood and yet more wars have been fought in the name of religion than for any other reason.

If you doubt that, just think about the Crusades and then remember what is going on in the world today.  Right now in New York City there is much discussion and ill will over the building of a mosque which is considered too close to the site of the old World Trade Centers.

Russia and the pogroms were not exclusive or anything new when it comes to religious debate and hatred.  There may no longer be "The Pale of Settlement" in Russia, and the German ghettos of World War II are now gone, but the distrust that each religion has of any other still exists with no end in sight.

It was the Romans who persecuted the newly minted Christians and forced them to live in the catacombs and executed them in the Colosseum.  Yet the Jews have taken the brunt of Christian anger for centuries.  Maybe that is because the Roman Empire no longer exists and Constantine eventually accepted the Christian Religion before he died.  

Undoubtedly. In contrast to national or tribal religions such as Judaism, Confucianism, Shinto, Hinduism and the religions of the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Celts, Slavs etc., whose members had/have no active wish to convert other people, members of missionary religions like Christianity and Islam can get really provoked if people stubbornly refuse to convert. Because they have seen the light, they have been given a message to preach by God himself, in short they are people on a mission. And since Jesus was a Jew himself, what would be more logical to the Christian mind than his fellow Jews converting to the "reformed and thus necessarily superior" form of Judaism he started. Why refuse so stubbornly when the new religion had conquered the whole Roman Empire and hordes of barbarians! And Christian missionaries could find many examples in the Old Testament of God punishing the Jewish people for their stubbornness and refusal to listen to Him. (Of course they then had to overlook the just as many examples of God protecting his chosen people for their boundless, stubborn loyalty to Him.)

With organized religion the goal is control of thought and behaviour.  The peace and love is the red herring that attracts people to the yolk and takes peoples' eyes off the sword.  In Roman times, there were many religions coexisting and most of them were pan theistic or multi god religions.  Jews held full citizenship and were not persecuted until they decided to revolt.  The problem with Christianity from the Roman perspective was it was intolerant of other religions and very evangelistic in the sense of pushing the religion on other people.  By the way, Islam is not that evangelistic and is very accommodating of other religions as long as they don't try to convert Muslims.  Right from the beginning of Islam, it coexisted with other religions except on the battlefield.  Following 1453, all of the Christian sects were allowed to form their own communities and as for the Jews, all of those that were expelled from Spain in 1492 were welcomed and were not persecuted in the Ottoman empire.