Author Topic: AA and FS  (Read 67838 times)

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IlyaBorisovich

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AA and FS
« on: October 21, 2004, 06:13:41 PM »
All right, I can't think of which of the threads under the "Anastasia" topic this would fit under, so I gave it its own.  

My question is addressed to all those who believe without doubt that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schanzkowska.  I understand why you would believe she was not Anastasia, but what is so impossible about the notion that Anna Anderson was not Franziska either?  To me, there are enough inconsistancies between Anna and Franziska to allow this possibility.  Why must she be one or the other?  Denying that Anna was not Franziska does not imply that she was Anastasia.  Please use this thread to elaborate and clarify this, if you please.  Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Ilya

AnastasiaFan

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2004, 06:55:01 PM »
Quote
All right, I can't think of which of the threads under the "Anastasia" topic this would fit under, so I gave it its own.  

My question is addressed to all those who believe without doubt that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schanzkowska.  I understand why you would believe she was not Anastasia, but what is so impossible about the notion that Anna Anderson was not Franziska either?  To me, there are enough inconsistancies between Anna and Franziska to allow this possibility.  Why must she be one or the other?  Denying that Anna was not Franziska does not imply that she was Anastasia.  Please use this thread to elaborate and clarify this, if you please.  Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Ilya


Hi Ilya! I don't know if I count in this since I am not one who is 100% convinced she was Franziska. I think it is likely she was Franziska, at least more likely than her being Anastasia. However I won't dismiss the chance she could have been another person. Honestly, I don't really care who the woman pulled from the Berlin canal was. She wasn't Anastasia, so that's all that really matters to me.  :)

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2004, 06:59:01 PM »
I agree.
I really do believe she was FS, but even if she wasn't she was not Anastasia.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2004, 09:22:21 PM »
Ilya,  what are the inconsistencies  you've found?

I am keeping an open mind on all this.

For all I know Anna Anderson could have been planted by Stalin to muck up everything for the "real" Anastasia.  Or,  she was the real Anastasia and Stalin made sure there was no evidence left to make sure she couldn't prove in case in the German court.   Or,  she was a woman in mental trouble who ended up on a path which she didn't start but people begain to believe and in time she ended up believing.

Since the intestines could have been tampered with through the years or in it's transportation for the DNA,  I am hesitate to take this evidence as the sole proof which points to AA being FS.

By the way,  who was the first person to claim she was FS and not Anastasia?

AGRBear.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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rskkiya

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2004, 10:04:59 PM »
Quote
Ilya,  what are the inconsistencies  you've found?


For all I know Anna Anderson could have been planted by Stalin to muck up everything for the "real" Anastasia.  Or,  she was the real Anastasia and Stalin made sure there was no evidence left to make sure she couldn't prove in case in the German court.   Or,  she was a woman in mental trouble who ended up on a path which she didn't start but people begain to believe and in time she ended up believing.

Since the intestines could have been tampered with through the years or in it's transportation for the DNA,  I am hesitate to take this evidence as the sole proof which points to AA being FS.
AGRBear.


agrbear
   I must take exception with the whole "the intestines were tampered with" theory. The records at the hospital have been scrutinized and crosschecked and any conspiracy to replace 'intestinal material' seems far fetched in the extream. The notion that Stalin planted A.A. seems equally illogical and a bit 'coldwar'--nevertheless, these are all possiblilities but not all probabilities.

LOL
R

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2004, 10:18:41 PM »
The other thread had a lot of detail on how efficient Martha Jefferson hospital is, how things are only labeled with code numbers and not names, it was NOT tampered with.

IlyaBorisovich

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2004, 03:37:15 AM »
I do appreciate your thoughts, but please don't bring up the AA/AN conspiracy!  For the intents and purposes of this thread, let's assume that Anna Anderson was, without question, NOT Anastasia, just for the sake of argument.  That being said, if you are still 100% convinced that AA was FS, would you please explain here why you so believe?  That was the reason I started this thread in the first place.  Thanks.

Ilya

rskkiya

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2004, 10:20:25 AM »
Ok

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2004, 10:48:53 AM »
Okay.

How about this:   FS spoke Polish and Anastasia didn't.....

AGRBear
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IlyaBorisovich

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2004, 10:56:14 AM »
Quote
Okay.

How about this:   FS spoke Polish and Anastasia didn't.....

AGRBear


I'm a bit confused as to exactly what this has to do with Anna Anderson.  According to Greg, AA was only purported to speak Polish by one person, someone who knew her in Virginia near the end of her life.  We've already assumed for the sake of my question that AA is NOT Anastasia, so I don't really even understand the point you're trying to make.  Please clarify.  Thanks.

Ilya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2004, 02:53:18 PM »
Ilya wrote: "I understand why you would believe she was not Anastasia, but what is so impossible about the notion that Anna Anderson was not Franziska either?  To me, there are enough inconsistancies between Anna and Franziska to allow this possibility.  Why must she be one or the other?"

I hadn't read your question carefully enough.

I think the answer to your question has interestingly turned up on another thread.

Franziska may have been murdered by a Georg K. Grossmann, therefore,  Anna Anderson could not have been FS.  If not FS and not GD Anastasia,  then who could she have been?


Excellent question.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

IlyaBorisovich

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2004, 04:03:05 PM »
AGRBear,

If you'd post the link to that thread, I'd be much obliged.

Ilya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2004, 04:27:22 PM »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2004, 12:04:26 PM »
My reasons for believing AA was FS:

1. AA's story does not make sense. She was allegedly rescued by a soldier and driven bleeding badly and without medication in a cart for hundreds of miles? Even the name she used for the soldier is suspicious- Alexander Tchiakovsky, come on. To a non Russian trying to invent a Russian name quickly, Alexander would be a common name, and Tchiakovsky being a famous name because of the composer was handy to say the least and known even to the lowliest of people. Interesting there is no record of this "Alexander Tchiakovsky' among the Bolsheviks he allegedly worked for, or the place he supposedly settled and lived 2 years with AA.

AA never even thought to claim to be a Russian GD until it was suggested by a fellow patient, then she later changed the one she claimed to be! Maybe she found out later it was Anastasia that was claimed to be missing (or, if the Russian scientists are right and it's Marie who's missing the whole thing is out the window!)

2. There is a lot we don't know about AA before 1920, but we do know she had a child. Whatever else happened, whatever injuries she may have gotten, it was very likely that it was a traumatic experience that scarred her physically and emotionally for life. In those days, times were harsh and there is a lot that could have happened to a person besides being the victim of a Russian firing squad. Likely the true story of AA's past my never be known. I don't believe FS was murdered. This has come out only recently, the name used in the source is not even exactly the same, and if there were anything to the story surely it would have come up in 40 years of court cases and investigations. Seems like a handy little way to get FS out of the way for those who continue to push AA being AN, IMO.

3.To say that AA was AN would be to call the  hospital, scientists and doctors involved in the DNA testing liars, frauds and con artists. I don't believe that. I don't think in 1994 it made any difference who she turned out to be, though it would have been more exciting for her to be AN and maybe even the scientists were hoping for that result too when they did the test. But AA was proven to be 100% NOT a relative of Alexandra's family, and very likely to be related to FS's family. That is the end of the story for most people.

4. To say that AA was AN is to call Ernie of Hesse, Xenia and Olga of Russia, and other family members heartless liars turning away their tragic lost niece after the brutal murder of her family. I cannot believe they'd do that. If the real AN had showed up I am sure they would have been overjoyed and welcomed her. The tragedy of losing the entire IF was so hard on those they loved, and I can image how much more it must have hurt to constantly deal with pretenders and fakes grinding salt into their pain, and giving false glimmers of hope for survival that were later dashed as the grief set in again. I pity those family members so much. WHY would they deny a real AN? Money? That phantom money that's been rumored but never proven? That phantom money that after all these years still doesn't exist? While Olga and Xenia did get a settlement of Nicky's money, it couldn't have been much. Olga lived basically a poor woman farmer and died in a one bedroom apt. over a Toronto barber shop. Xenia lived in Englad mostly on the charity of her English cousins who felt the guilt of denying the promise of asylum to Nicky, Alix and the kids. No way would the family have rejected a real AN, they were HURT and angered by the insensitivity imposters were causing their already devastated family. So, that explains the royals to me.

5. To say that AA was FS is to call FS's siblings liars. Well, let's look at this. They did seem to claim her, especially one sister, then after much deliberation denied her. Felix Schanskowska was even quoted as saying "If she is my sister, I won't be held responsible for her will I?" This tells me they DID beleive she was their sister but refused to acknowledge it because they feared:

*having to take on responsibility of a mentally ill sister unable to support herself
*perhaps being held responsible financially for all the dust she'd stirred up, the court costs, etc.
*having to deal with her anger and destroying her chance at a good life as Anastasia.

So it is my opinion that they denied her both to cover their own selves from having to be responsible for her, and at the same time leaving her to what was a better life as "Anastasia"- even if she could never prove it, the celebrity it brought was currency she could live on. I also saw another quote from her brother once saying something like that, she wanted to be Anastasia, we left her with what she wanted. That explains the Schaskowska family to me.

6. The memories- now I get blasted every time I say this, and I think that's perhaps because some who want to keep this as a mystery don't like it mentioned. But there were several people in the Russian Emigre community abroad who could have supplied her with the info and memories both intentionally or accidently. I don't know or won't list all the names I suspect, but it is a very likely source.  I will go on and mention the Botkins too. They did have intimate knowledge of the family, and Gleb was an artist and a journalist, and this did make an excellent story. Even if he were not the first to supply her memories, I do think he was in on it, IMO. When I first thought of this a few years ago I kicked myself for not seeing this obvious connection sooner. So that explains the memories to me.

The languages? I don't think there is any definite list of when she spoke each one, and there are conflicting reports mostly from only one vague source on what she did or did not speak in some cases so I don't see that as enough evidence one way or the other.

7. The face- when I was a believer, I could see the resemblance of AA and AN. But now, recently taking this interest back up after a hiatus, looking at them again with a fresh perspective, I don't see Anastasia in AA at all and wonder how I ever did, it must have been wishful thinking. I also see how many times AA makes an effort to hold her mouth like Anastasia to conceal a much wider mouth and fuller lips than AN had. Looking at the pic of FS, it was like, oh my, I was such a fool all those years. The eyes are wider set, the mouth wider, lips fuller, chin and cheekbones different. I see a totally different woman. So that explains the pictures to me.

I will add to this later as I think of more things. I really feel that being so accused of being against AA that I explain myself. I did believe in her for years, and I am a person who believes in strange things. I do not even rule out Anastasia's escaping, the body is missing. It is very unlikely considering the brutality of the crime and the injuries even a survivor would have had, but I can't say for sure until the body is found. Maybe Anastasia was out there, living as an anonymous peasant girl. That's what I would do if I thought the Bolsheviks were hunting me down, the last thing I'd do is expose  myself in public! So while I can't say for 100% certain (probably 90% though) that Anastasia died the night of July 16, 1918 in Ekaterinburg, I do say with at least 99.9% certainty she was NOT AA/FS/Anastasia Manahan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2004, 07:00:14 AM »
Annie, that's a very good summary of the case for Anna Anderson being Franziska Schanzkowska.

On the contentious issue of Anna Anderson's languages: I've always thought her unwillingness to speak Russian was extremely suspicious. She claimed that she didn't like to speak Russian because "it was the last language we heard in that [the Ipatiev] house." But Russian was not just the language of the Bolsheviks, it was Anastasia Nikolaevna's native tongue, and the language of those who loved her: her father, her nursemaids (like Alexandra Tegleva), and much of her extended family. Remember, the imperial children always spoke Russian with their father. I would think she would naturally associate Russian with her family, not with the revolutionaries who imprisoned and later killed them.

My husband, who is a native Russian speaker, has listened to Anna Anderson speak in English in various documentaries I've shown him, and he says her accent is definitely not Russian. He says it sounds to him like a Polish accent of some kind. He also tells me that AA's foreign accent was no doubt one of the reasons why the Russian forensic experts were so irate at the idea that she could have been Anastasia. Russians in general would not take kindly to any suggestion that a woman with a Polish-sounding accent was once a Russian grand duchess. It's a matter of ethnic pride (and the long-standing animosity between Russians and Poles).

I try to keep an open mind where Anna Anderson is concerned, because there are aspects of her case that continue to trouble me, but on this point everyone can forgive me if I don't want to argue with my husband!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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