Author Topic: AA and FS  (Read 63573 times)

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Offline pushkina

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2004, 07:47:47 AM »
if i remember correctly, FS didn't speak polish but spoke kaschubian instead.
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2004, 07:51:45 AM »
Same region, similar accent. My husband said AA's accent sounded "like some kind of" Polish accent. It didn't sound like she came from Warsaw, in other words.
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Offline ISteinke

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2004, 07:56:20 AM »
Here's a thought-
     One of the favorite vacation spots of the Imperial Family was Spala, in Poland, where they spent time every year. Is it not possible that Anastasia could have picked up Polish, not necessarily through formal training, but simply through interaction with people whom she met and visited with? This wouldn't be an important fact, or something that anyone would have reported. It would simply be a triviality.
    Point being: Maybe Anastasia Romanov did, in fact, speak the Polish language [to some degree], and nobody wrote about it.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2004, 08:12:20 AM »
ISteinke, it's my understanding that Russians can understand Polish and vice versa, so they can communicate with each other in a rough manner, even if they don't actually speak each other's languages.

Pushkina is right, as I recall Franziska did speak Kashubian. According to Massie, she was descended from the Polish nobility. Since she was born in Pozen, Prussia, on the border with Poland, it's more than likely that she knew Polish and perhaps even a smattering of German as well.

People in these border areas of Eastern Europe (which were continually passed back and forth between different countries) tended to know more than one language. For example, in the 1920s many so-called "Polish" Jews were actually more comfortable speaking Russian than Polish because they had grown up in previously Russian-occupied territories (see M. Wolff's account in the book "The Other Russia").  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2004, 09:37:30 AM »
Thanks for your input, Elisabeth, your husband would know a Russian accent if he heard it! Felix Y. pulled the 4 languages on her, and he could tell right off she was not the daughter of the Tsar (oh yeah that's right he was lying and trying to kill her ::) )

I doubt seriously Anastasia would have picked up any Polish from the Spala visits. They were only in contact with their own family and entourage. I would also think that the children might even have a bit of a British or French accent instead of or in addition to a Russian one?

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2004, 10:44:12 AM »
Annie,

In reading your post of yesterday, I understand that you're convinced that AA was not Anastasia.  In your point 5, you argue against AA being FS.  The whole point of this thread was to find out exactly why people are so convinced that AA could only be FS, since she cannot be Anastasia.  I and several others have proposed that AA was neither AN or FS.  Do you now share this opinion?  Your previous post seemed to suggest that you believe AA to be neither AN or FS. ???

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Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2004, 10:48:00 AM »
No, I mean I do believe AA was FS. I did say I did not rule out the unlikely possibilty the real Anastasia escaped, since the body is missing, but even IF she did, I still don't think AA was her, I think AA was FS.

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2004, 10:54:08 AM »
OK, granted we've assumed for the sake of argument that AA could absolutely NOT have been Anastasia.  The issue, then, is why Anna Anderson could not have been anyone but FS.  Why do you believe that AA was FS.  I guess that's been my question all along.

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Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2004, 11:05:33 AM »
I guess there is a chance she might have been neither AN or FS, but personally I think she was FS.

What I meant about my #2 point was that while we don't know much about her before 1920 we can't prove it one way or the other and never will be able to, but there is enough there (including the DNA) to make me be fairly sure she was FS.

I really believe if there was anything earthshattering to discover it would have come out in 4 decades of court cases and investigations while most of the involved parties were still alive, especially in the 20's and 30's because after WW2 stuff got destroyed or lost. I also believe the real secret of FS was either lost or destroyed during the turmoil in and after WW1, and because she was of modest means some things may never have existed in the first place. It is very likely she was hurt during the time before 1920 and there are no records because they were lost or she was treated as an unknown somewhere and there never was a record. I do believe something horrible happened to Fraulein Unknown, but I don't think it was in the basement in Ekaterinburg. A lot of bad things happened to a lot of people back then. Maybe she took her terrible story with her to eternity. Maybe she never remembered it. Maybe it was replaced by the stories of AN. I honestly don't believe AA was a liar or a bad person, I think she truly was convinced she was AN, at least most of the time. But she wasn't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Michelle

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2004, 11:06:11 AM »
Quote
My reasons for believing AA was FS:

4. To say that AA was AN is to call Ernie of Hesse, Xenia and Olga of Russia, and other family members heartless liars turning away their tragic lost niece after the brutal murder of her family. I cannot believe they'd do that. If the real AN had showed up I am sure they would have been overjoyed and welcomed her. The tragedy of losing the entire IF was so hard on those they loved, and I can image how much more it must have hurt to constantly deal with pretenders and fakes grinding salt into their pain, and giving false glimmers of hope for survival that were later dashed as the grief set in again. I pity those family members so much. WHY would they deny a real AN? Money? That phantom money that's been rumored but never proven? That phantom money that after all these years still doesn't exist? While Olga and Xenia did get a settlement of Nicky's money, it couldn't have been much. Olga lived basically a poor woman farmer and died in a one bedroom apt. over a Toronto barber shop. Xenia lived in Englad mostly on the charity of her English cousins who felt the guilt of denying the promise of asylum to Nicky, Alix and the kids. No way would the family have rejected a real AN, they were HURT and angered by the insensitivity imposters were causing their already devastated family. So, that explains the royals to me.
.


Annie, the answer you gave to the 'question' of the royals is actually evident that AA really could have been AN.  BECAUSE the royals were all hurting so much inside because of the numerous imposters, they would NATUALLY not want to see AA because they were sick and tired of dealing with the pain conjured up in these circumstances.  I mean as I recall, hardly any of the royals went to see her.  The ones who did (except for Olga A. who had to admit later on in her life that she just couldn't be sure) were convinced that she was genuine.  They wouldn't give her a chance by even seeing her (the ones you're talking about) which is hardly a reason to say that they rejected her as Anastasia since they never wanted anything to do with her in the first place!!!!  The royals just figured she was another imposter when they FIRST HEARD OF HER, and with imposter after imposter, they had automatically just made up their minds that she was probably another one.

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2004, 11:08:16 AM »
Several of them did see her, and surely with all the publicity and press on her they all saw her pictures. No one is going to sit there and ignore someone who could possibly be your long lost niece. I think they DID see her, and having known her a lot better than we do, knew she was a fake from the start. I remember a letter FA posted awhile back Olga had written to someone. I don't believe Olga ever said 'she couldn't be sure.' Olga was close to the girls, she would have known, and she didn't accept AA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2004, 11:16:21 AM »
Here is the collage of AA pics with the only known verified photo of FS in the center, posted by Lisa in the long thread:



Compare to Anastasia's small mouth and thin lips and much more oval face and rounded chin



Anastasia looks more like me than she did AA!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline ISteinke

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2004, 11:34:59 AM »
I find this whole thread to be incredibly amusing. Actually I find all of the Anna Anderson threads on this forum to be incredibly amusing. Here is why...

Nearly all of the posts on these threads are written in by people who absolutely do not believe that Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia, and yet the posts are adding up, now, to dozens and dozens of pages. Are you aware that over 14,000 people have now read these posts? If all of you really believe that Anna Anderson was a total impostor, then prove it by stopping. If there were no case in her favor you would find nothing to argue about.

The point is [and I really, sincerely want to know], why do all of you care to continue bickering about an impostor. Annie is right. If she really wasn't the Grand Duchess, all of this is a stupid waste of time.

If Anna Anderson was not Grand Duchess Anastasia, if there was nothing to her claim, then why are there 8000 pages of bound testimony from her court case?

Did Eugenia Smith have enough evidence to keep a courtroom busy for 30 years?

Did Marga Boodts have enough evidence to keep a courtroom busy for 30 years?

I am also not only torqued that all of you continue what yourselves claim is pointless discussion. Y'all also answer every piece of evidence in AA's favor with explanations of "why it cannot be true," rather than honestly addressing the questions raised.

As far as Franziska is concerned- Y'all claim that no-one worth listening to ever identified Anna Anderson as Anastasia. Actually an impressive host of people did. Grand Duke Andrew [who saw her every day during the war] recognized her. Tatiana Botkin recognized her. Lili Dehn recognized her. Felix Dassel recognized her. Even Shura [That's right- Mrs. Gilliard] recognized her. Are you aware that Shura NEVER recanted her original recognition?

Yet, did anyone [apart from bribery] ever positively identify her as Franzsika?

Come on, now. Franziska dissapeared in 1920. By the time her family came to identify AA a number of years later, she could not possibly have changed enough for them not to recognize her, and yet they didn't.

If she was really Franziska, why didn't they welcome her with loving arms? You see, the answer is that they all knew Franziska far better than any of us, and they knew from the start that she was a fake. They had watched her grow up.

I'll make a challenge to all of the anti-Anna people on this forum [and the other AA forum]. If you really believe that Anna Anderson was a total impostor, back up your beliefs by withdrawing from this forum, and thus bringing the whole foolishness to an end.

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2004, 11:43:22 AM »
Quote
If all of you really believe that Anna Anderson was a total impostor, then prove it by stopping. If there were no case in her favor you would find nothing to argue about.


Same could be said for the pro AA side as well!

Quote
The point is [and I really, sincerely want to know], why do all of you care to continue bickering about an impostor. Annie is right. If she really wasn't the Grand Duchess, all of this is a stupid waste of time.


I never said it was a stupid waste of time. It may be, but I'm guilty as anyone!

Quote
If Anna Anderson was not Grand Duchess Anastasia, if there was nothing to her claim, then why are there 8000 pages of bound testimony from her court case?


A court case which never proved her identity.



Quote
Yet, did anyone [apart from bribery] ever positively identify her as Franzsika?


Heh, I could also say anyone who took AA's side also did it for bribery. I think some people were emotional or confused, and while Shura never recanted, she never said it anymore either, and her husband, the tutor, fought AA until the day he died! Andrew was not a good source. He hardly knew Anastasia and probably couldn't have picked her out of a crowd before the revolution. Remember, the IF disliked the Vladimirovichi and saw them rarely. Felix Yussoupov denied her on sight. The Botkins? It is my opinion the Botkins knew it wasn't her and egged it on for a reason. Before anyone jumps on me for saying this about them, consider that no matter which side you take on this you are calling someone a liar!

Quote
Come on, now. Franziska dissapeared in 1920. By the time her family came to identify AA a number of years later, she could not possibly have changed enough for them not to recognize her, and yet they didn't.

If she was really Franziska, why didn't they welcome her with loving arms? You see, the answer is that they all knew Franziska far better than any of us, and they knew from the start that she was a fake. They had watched her grow up.




I already explained why I feel they didn't. They did at first, but were afraid of being held responisible for the mess she'd caused, and her support for the rest of her life, and decided to leave her to what she wanted, "Anastasia." There are even quotes that back this up.


Quote
I'll make a challenge to all of the anti-Anna people on this forum [and the other AA forum]. If you really believe that Anna Anderson was a total impostor, back up your beliefs by withdrawing from this forum, and thus bringing the whole foolishness to an end.


Sure, you want us all to shut up so you can be the only side trying to convince people who haven't made up their minds. If you're so sure, YOU leave the forum!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: AA and FS
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2004, 11:56:08 AM »
Please keep 2 distinct and important facts apart.
1. AA was NOT Anastasia. the conclusive mtDNA tests show that. The rest of any argument is MOOT. Not really open to discussion anymore, other than by conspiracy theorists (a major conspiracy being the only possible way left to keep that hope alive).
2. Was AA FS, which IS the subject of the thread. NOW this is a topic still very much open to discussion. But, just because AA may NOT have been FS, does not lend any support to her having been Anastasia...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »