Author Topic: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?  (Read 60346 times)

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Offline Nikl

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #135 on: April 27, 2008, 03:12:24 PM »
Niki,  that concept is  Marxist theory. [from the people to the people]  I am not an apologist for the Bolshevik/Soviet state.  But,  the confiscations did, in ways, go back to the people in the form of health care and education amongst other so-called "benefits".  Of course there were/are abuses, as in every system. The disaster of Zimbabwe is a perfect example currently.
 But this id off topic I think.
Communist was "benefit" of what? :o
If somebody was really sick (cancer and so on) , doctor said he(she) is fine, so he(she) have to go to work.  3 days you did not come to work and you went to  prison for long time. :(
If you never lived in comunist country, you would never know what it is about.  I lived there 34 years and I am glad, that I escape to Canada. :)

Offline Nikl

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2008, 03:18:51 PM »
Niki,  that concept is  Marxist theory. [from the people to the people]  I am not an apologist for the Bolshevik/Soviet state.  But,  the confiscations did, in ways, go back to the people in the form of health care and education amongst other so-called "benefits".  Of course there were/are abuses, as in every system. The disaster of Zimbabwe is a perfect example currently.
 But this id off topic I think.
Communismus was "benefit" of what? :o
If somebody was really sick (cancer and so on) , doctor said he(she) is fine, so he(she) have to go to work.  3 days you did not come to work and you went to  prison for long time. :(
If you never lived in comunist country, you would never know what it is about.  I lived there 34 years and I am glad, that I escaped to Canada. :)

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2008, 06:34:21 PM »
I am glad that you escaped Russia.  I hope your family was able to escape as well.

It is people like yourself who can tell the  real stories of what communism has done to Russians and Russia.

Too many people have believed the communist propaganda and have no concept of what occured and still occurs but under different names.

AGRBear




"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #138 on: April 28, 2008, 01:36:01 AM »
The accounts for the 5 girls were deutchmark deposit accounts.  These were rendered valueless by the hyperinflation of the 1920's Bear.  The hyperinflation was a result of the huge reparations/damages payments the Allies imposed on Germany AFTER the war.

The only asset of any value which Anastasia could have inherited was Alexandra's real estate, valued at $70,000 after the War (according to Clarke).  True, this asset would have retained a relative value in other currencies.

Thats all there was. Nothing else. Sadly.


Thanks, Rob. As I have said all along, not only were there few unrepatriated assets, not only were the German assets devalued due to hyperinflation, but a surviving GD would have only had claim to a part of these assets. However, it does no good to try to explain it. I know, I have tried.

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #139 on: May 07, 2008, 10:20:26 AM »
The accounts for the 5 girls were deutchmark deposit accounts.  These were rendered valueless by the hyperinflation of the 1920's Bear.  The hyperinflation was a result of the huge reparations/damages payments the Allies imposed on Germany AFTER the war.

The only asset of any value which Anastasia could have inherited was Alexandra's real estate, valued at $70,000 after the War (according to Clarke).  True, this asset would have retained a relative value in other currencies.

Thats all there was. Nothing else. Sadly.


I assume you meant the deposit accounts of the 4 girls and Alexei were vaueless due to the hyperinflation.

Just as I assume Clarke understood the hyperinflation which occured during those harsh years in Germany as did the German courts when the Romanovs petition the court in 1934.

We do agree about the $70,000 which was not wheelbarrows of deflated German marks.

AND,  we are just talking about what was in Germany and not elsewhere.

AGRBear




« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 10:25:02 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #140 on: May 07, 2008, 10:37:40 AM »
The accounts for the 5 girls were deutchmark deposit accounts.  These were rendered valueless by the hyperinflation of the 1920's Bear.  The hyperinflation was a result of the huge reparations/damages payments the Allies imposed on Germany AFTER the war.

The only asset of any value which Anastasia could have inherited was Alexandra's real estate, valued at $70,000 after the War (according to Clarke).  True, this asset would have retained a relative value in other currencies.

Thats all there was. Nothing else. Sadly.


I assume you meant the deposit accounts of the 4 girls and Alexei were vaueless due to the hyperinflation.

Just as I assume Clarke understood the hyperinflation which occured during those harsh years in Germany as did the German courts when the Romanovs petition the court in 1934.

We do agree about the $70,000 which was not wheelbarrows of deflated German marks.

AND,  we are just talking about what was in Germany and not elsewhere.

AGRBear






The $70,000 figure was BEFORE the hyper-inflation set in, based on values recorded in 1917. The accounts were Deutschmark deposit accounts and stocks, all of which were worth valued FAR FAR LESS after the inflationary period. There was no real estate, as I said. 

THERE WERE NO ASSETS BELONGING TO THE FAMILY OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA OTHER THAN GERMANY.
 PERIOD.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #141 on: May 07, 2008, 02:52:47 PM »
Let me explain, again:

p.130


The Romanoff would have collected $100,000 according to the "certificate of inheritance" in 1938, if AA 's lawyer hadn't filed >>a petition for the revocation of the certificate of inheritance on August 17, 1938.<<

In that petition the assests must have been listed. I do not know what was on this list.   This list included  the  assests which the German govt.  had released on 9 Jan 1934 >>just two weeks after the original application from Countess Brassova and other Romanovs<<.   

The assests [could have been property, jewels, bonds, a mine....]  was  valued at  $100,000 in 1938.

AGRBear








« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 03:02:55 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2008, 03:44:31 PM »
Let me explain, again:

p.130


The Romanoff would have collected $100,000 according to the "certificate of inheritance" in 1938, if AA 's lawyer hadn't filed >>a petition for the revocation of the certificate of inheritance on August 17, 1938.<<

In that petition the assests must have been listed. I do not know what was on this list.   This list included  the  assests which the German govt.  had released on 9 Jan 1934 >>just two weeks after the original application from Countess Brassova and other Romanovs<<.   

The assests [could have been property, jewels, bonds, a mine....]  was  valued at  $100,000 in 1938.

AGRBear


Correct, but as I have pointed out many times, a surviving grand duchess would not necessarily be the sole heir to any assets of the Russian sovereigns, and presumably Alexandra died without a will. So my guess was half or less than this for Anastasia.

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2008, 03:51:53 PM »
pg. 275: "The only personal funds we have detected abroad are those of the children in Berlin, which were inherited by Grand Duchess Xenia in 1933."

pg. 130: "the Central District Court granted them the Tsar's remaining assets in Germany, comprising deposits and investments previously blocked.
...(originally estimated to be anywhere from $1.5 million to $7 million (original value or about $2007 150 million to 700 million)
"Whatever the original total, wartime inflation and the hyper inflation of Germany in the 1920s had wiped out much of the original value.  Edward Fallows put the current value in the 1930s at around $100,000.  That sum was put at the disposal of the Romanoff descendants by the issue of a certificate of inheritance in 1938."

pg. 196: "the amount thus deposited (by Mendelssohn Bank) amounted to about a million Reichsmarks, or according to Fallows, some $100,000. "

THATS IT BEAR. It was some cash. NOTHING ELSE. No jewels, no property. About $100,000 in 1930s money. In 2007 terms, between 1.5 and 3.0 million $2007. Thats all, NADA else.

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #144 on: May 07, 2008, 03:53:51 PM »
Let me explain, again:

p.130


The Romanoff would have collected $100,000 according to the "certificate of inheritance" in 1938, if AA 's lawyer hadn't filed >>a petition for the revocation of the certificate of inheritance on August 17, 1938.<<

In that petition the assests must have been listed. I do not know what was on this list.   This list included  the  assests which the German govt.  had released on 9 Jan 1934 >>just two weeks after the original application from Countess Brassova and other Romanovs<<.   

The assests [could have been property, jewels, bonds, a mine....]  was  valued at  $100,000 in 1938.

AGRBear


Correct, but as I have pointed out many times, a surviving grand duchess would not necessarily be the sole heir to any assets of the Russian sovereigns, and presumably Alexandra died without a will. So my guess was half or less than this for Anastasia.

Actually, Lisa, according to Clarke, the certificate of inheritance was issue based on the familial relationship to the original owners.  As the sole surviving daughter and sister, the theoretically surviving GD would have inherited the entire amount.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #145 on: May 07, 2008, 05:21:33 PM »
pg. 275: "The only personal funds we have detected abroad are those of the children in Berlin, which were inherited by Grand Duchess Xenia in 1933."

pg. 130: "the Central District Court granted them the Tsar's remaining assets in Germany, comprising deposits and investments previously blocked.
...(originally estimated to be anywhere from $1.5 million to $7 million (original value or about $2007 150 million to 700 million)
"Whatever the original total, wartime inflation and the hyper inflation of Germany in the 1920s had wiped out much of the original value.  Edward Fallows put the current value in the 1930s at around $100,000.  That sum was put at the disposal of the Romanoff descendants by the issue of a certificate of inheritance in 1938."

pg. 196: "the amount thus deposited (by Mendelssohn Bank) amounted to about a million Reichsmarks, or according to Fallows, some $100,000. "

THATS IT BEAR. It was some cash. NOTHING ELSE. No jewels, no property. About $100,000 in 1930s money. In 2007 terms, between 1.5 and 3.0 million $2007. Thats all, NADA else.

You said "no property".   What happen to the property of Alexandra which you spoke of early in this discussion?

But there were more assests than cash in the German bank.  There was the jewels which Alexandra and Buxhoveden had hidden in the bolt of cloth while in Tobolsk in a  chest which was later sent by the Bolsheviks to Romanov relatives in Germany.  These jewels were never discussed and simply just kinda faded away, accept Clarke leaned about them. 

p.155-6

>>The boxes and their contents remained untouched in the Grand Duchess's [Xenia's] home,... 

Some months afterds Baroness Buxhoeveden..wrote to the Grad Duchess asking her..wheather she had found the jewels belonging to the Empress which were secreted in a roll of cloth... and the Grand Duchess oepned the boxes and eventualy found the jewelsl...<<

Please note,  Clarke didn't say  jewel,  he told it was "jewels"...

These jewels would have been inherited by GD Anastasia, if she had survived.

What jewels were they?  What was their value?  Where did they go?  Did the Romanovs ever declare these particular jewels in the petition of inheritance?


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #146 on: May 07, 2008, 06:18:02 PM »
Please remove above post.  I don't know why it posted before I was finished.

pg. 275: "The only personal funds we have detected abroad are those of the children in Berlin, which were inherited by Grand Duchess Xenia in 1933."

pg. 130: "the Central District Court granted them the Tsar's remaining assets in Germany, comprising deposits and investments previously blocked.
...(originally estimated to be anywhere from $1.5 million to $7 million (original value or about $2007 150 million to 700 million)
"Whatever the original total, wartime inflation and the hyper inflation of Germany in the 1920s had wiped out much of the original value.  Edward Fallows put the current value in the 1930s at around $100,000.  That sum was put at the disposal of the Romanoff descendants by the issue of a certificate of inheritance in 1938."

pg. 196: "the amount thus deposited (by Mendelssohn Bank) amounted to about a million Reichsmarks, or according to Fallows, some $100,000. "

THATS IT BEAR. It was some cash. NOTHING ELSE. No jewels, no property. About $100,000 in 1930s money. In 2007 terms, between 1.5 and 3.0 million $2007. Thats all, NADA else.

You said "no property".   What happen to the property of Alexandra which you spoke of early in this discussion?

..[in part]...]
As for the Hesse Darmstadt property, I don't have my source materials with me...but AGR, it was NOT a huge estate or anything like that. As I recall off the top of my head it was some vineyard property and small farms...it would not have been worth any "major" money. Don't forget, Alexandra came to Nicholas with very little money of her own, her family were NOT wealthy.

Do you, now, believe there was no property?

And, yes, there were assests outside of Germany which GD Anastasia would have inherited if she had survived.

#1

Remember the jewels which Alexandra and Buxhoveden had hidden in the bolt of cloth while in Tobolsk in a  chest which was later sent by the Bolsheviks to Romanov relatives in Germany.  These jewels were never discussed and simply just kinda faded away, accept Clarke learned and wrote  about them. 

p.155-6

>>The boxes and their contents remained untouched in the Grand Duchess's [Xenia's] home,... 

Some months afterwards Baroness Buxhoeveden..wrote to the Grand Duchess asking her..whether she had found the jewels belonging to the Empress which were secreted in a roll of cloth... and the Grand Duchess oepned the boxes and eventualy found the jewels...<<

Please note,  Clarke didn't say  jewel,  he told us it was "jewels"...  AND,  no one has said what she found was something other than jewels.

These jewels would have been inherited by GD Anastasia, if she had survived.

Was Xenia in Great Britian or Germany at that time? If not in Germany then there would have been no need to have listed these particular jewels in the petition of inheritance of assests in Germany in 1934. 

Was there a petition of inheritance presented by the Romanovs to the British court which listed these particular jewels or bonds or any assests of Nicholas II's, Alexandra's or their children?

p. 130

>>Originally at stake were investments worth somewhere between  7 million and 14 million roubles was divided between London and Berlin...<  so, 3.5 million to 7 million roubles were placed in a London bank.  It is agreed that by 1934 the investments in Germany was worth $100,000, which, according to FA,  in the US today would be about 1.5 to 3 million dollars.

We have to skip over to other chapters to learn about the monies which was thought to have been in England.

Chapter "Europe" p. 221

>>How much money flowed back to Russia, following the tsar's patriotic plea, will now never be known.<<

Gotta run!  Will write more tomorow.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #147 on: May 07, 2008, 06:18:58 PM »
The property belonging to Alexandra, was cash holdings, as I corrected earlier in the discussion in my post of 4/27 : "I may be incorrect about real estate belonging to Alexandra.  Clarke mentions only "deutschmark investment accounts" belonging to Alexandra, so presumably these were also part of the Mendelssohn's & Co. accounts."

Well, the jewels are only speculation, even by Clarke, he only reports what he "heard" or read, and there is no way to prove they existed. You omit the first part of the quote: "The boxes and their contents remained untouched in the Grand Duchess's home, and it was then that Her Imperial Highness gave me the information which I quoted to you: that no jewels or valuables of any sort had returned." (pg 155)  You also OMIT something critical about the claim of the jewels from further down page 155: "Whether Davidson's report  was accurate is another matter,,,"

Certainly nobody EVER made such a list, and nobody EVER admitted they were in the trunks (and you mean "except" not "accept", typical Cal education... LOL).

To be honest, I highly suspect the jewels in the cloth making it to the Romanov relatives.  Bob and I were very lucky to have seen three of these trunks and their contents about ten years ago, when they were shipped to Romanov relations in the US.  The contents were sad indeed. Broken and chipped Alexander Palace service plates, worn out and threadbare damask napkins from the Imperial table, broken knicknacks, empty medicine bottles, thread and needles, old bent spoons...It was quite obvious that every item in the trunks had been gone through with a fine tooth comb and sent out specifically because they items were worthless.  I highly doubt the Soviets were so stupid, once they discovered the hidden jewels in the clothes on the bodies, that they "overlooked" jewels hidden in a bolt of cloth. 

"if" these jewels existed, the family receiving the trunks would have had to disclose their existence before any Grand Duchess could claim to inherit them.  A. they almost certainly didn't exist, and B. the surviving GD would have had to have KNOWN they existed.  This "asset" doesn't count for anything in reality....


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2008, 09:52:50 AM »
Clarke tells us  p. 155-6

>>...Wilton soon discovered that Xenia had already received some of the jewels from Ekaterinburg and naturally wondered how and why.  The jewels had not in fact been stolen en route after all.  The truth was far stranger and can now be told, as Davidson originally wrote to Wilton from Sandringham two months later:

"The boxes and ther contents remained untouched in the Grand Duchess's home, and it was then that Her Imperial Highnesss gave me the information which I quoted to you:  that no jewels or valuables of any sort had been returned.

Some months afterwards Baroness Buxhoeveden, who was as you know one of the few survivors from Ekaterinburg, wrote to the Grand Duchess asking her with reference to these boxes whether she had found the jewels belonging to the Empress which were secreted in a roll of cloth with some clothes belonging to  Countess Henrikova, which were in one of these boxes.  She described exactly their position and the Grand Duchess opened the boxes and eventually found the jewels in the place where they were said to have been.<<

I don't recall having read this part and will write the entire paragraph for other posters, who don't have this book, to read, if requested:

>>Whether Davidson's report was acurate is another matter, for in his latter memoirs in 1930 Janin claimed that they were still resting in his family vault at Serre Izard near Grenoble."   In this case,  Davidson wasn't talking about the jewels he was taking about relics and ashes:

>>Davidson also explained that the relics and ashes, which had been brought to France by General Janin were in the possession of . Giers in Paris.<<  etc. etc. etc.

Evdiently, if Davidson was telling the truth, the jewels were missed by the Bolshviks as well as King George's inspectors.

>>The cases eventually arrived in London where King George later reported that before Grand Duchess Xenia was able to look at the contents, they needed fumigating.  When she, with the Queen Alexandra and King George, exaimined what was in the cases at Marlbourough House they had a shock.  According to a letter subsequently sent by Sir Author Davidson from Sandringham to Robert Wilton, whose reports in The Time had covered the discovery of the relics and the Sokolov inquiry, the cases contained little more than "rubbish, rags, old cooking pots and debris of all sorts'.  He asked Wilton to call round to Marlborough House so that he could give him more details.<<

Next paragraph is about Empress Marie's belongings, followed with the  >>With all this in mind Sir Arthur Davidison was hardly surprised at the repetition.  But it was not the end of the sotry.  Wilston soon discovered....<<  Go to the top of my post and the rest of sentence and paragraph continues.

To me,  it seems possible that there were jewels.  As to their value, it appears that only Buxhoeveden, GD  Xenia and probably the other Romanovs knew but it appears no one was telling.  And why would they need to tell?   Such treasures was no one else's business because only the family needed to know and share.  Unless there were surviviors of the Russian Royal family (Nicholas II, wife,daughters and son)  who were alive to make a claim.  By 1919-1920,  the surviving Romanovs didn't believe there were any survivors of the Royal Family.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 10:17:00 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anastasia Inheritance Would Have Been What?
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2008, 10:45:21 AM »
At the moment I am reading, again, Clarke's Chapter "London" which starts on page 244 and end on p. 258.

p. 249-50
>>The official British files covering Russian deposits in Barings and other British banks I discovered were only partially open to the public.  While some had become aailable under the fifty-year-rule, some were restricted to seventy-five years, others to a hundred years; others again were simply 'restricted'.  It eventually took me fifteen months of correspondence to persuade the Foreign Office to open certain relevant files.<<

To be continued.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152