Author Topic: Grand Duke Ludwig IV  (Read 106534 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #180 on: October 06, 2012, 10:00:56 AM »
Dear countesskate.

I agree with you 100% that Prince Ludwig of Hesse trumped the "Orange Boy" and the Prince Consort agree that he would be a better husband for his daughter. What I am saying is that Holland is a much trotted territory than Hesse. Alice was treated as a foreigner and had to struggle to get herself accepted, while in Holland she would be seen as just another British Princesses coming in since Mary Stuart (sister of King Charles II). Also the fact that Holland got first choice in Alice's parents consideration is because of the political importance. One remembers how they encourage Fritz of Prussia to court Vicky, and that was very much a political match. Had the "orange boy" work out, would the Prince Consort consider the prince of Hesse ? Very unlikely. Alice end up poor (the constant asking of money from Alice to her mother and cheap holidays for the family was evidence) and a weak constitution that dates back to the war make me come to my conclusion that Alice would have been better off in Holland than Hesse (location).

Also Alice's later perception of her husband's "limited" intellect also a factor why she sought more intelligent minds to fill that gap. 

Offline Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #181 on: October 07, 2012, 01:41:40 PM »
Just another British Princess since Mary Stuart?? And your point is?

The Princess Royal was constantly treated as "the Englishwoman" at the Prussian court - literally until she died.
Perhaps you should widen your point up to a more general German thing :)
Meine Kaiserin

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #182 on: October 07, 2012, 01:58:07 PM »
Alice would not be judged as "foreign" as she did in Germany aka Hesse. I also think she would have appreciated the progressiveness of Holland.

Indeed, I agree with you Thomas_Hesse, it should widen to Germany. Even when Alice's niece (Marie Louise) got married in Anhalt, she found living at a foreign court difficult. That was the reason why Helena, Louise & Beatrice all married but remained in Britain (apart from Queen Victoria wanted them close by).

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #183 on: October 08, 2012, 03:59:48 AM »
My feeling is that some of the biographers of Princess Alice, following the discovery of her anguished letter to Ludwig in the Darmstadt archives (I believe it was Gerald Noel?), were horrified at the vision of an intelligent woman married to the kindly but rather dim and certainly unintellectual Ludwig and, looking at her professed desire for someone who could "share my intellectual interests and intellectual aspirations with a husband whose strong, protective love would have guided me round the rocks strewn in my way by my own nature, outward circumstances and the excess of my opinions", pitched on her only other suitor really seriously considered for her, William of the Netherlands as being someone who could have given her a happier life, as he at least matched her in intelligence, and was the heir to an actual throne so could have given her a wider scene to develop in, without fully entering into either the nature of William himself, or the difficulties she was likely to encounter in William's family life (whether or not Queen Sophie would have supported her), and the foreign country into which she would have married.  But I don't think Alice was actually crying out in her letter for a more perfect match, whether she knew it or not.  What she wanted was Daddy - I don't mean in any improper way, but the strong intellectual interests and certainty which Albert possessed and which influenced his two elder daughters in particular so much.  Had Prince Albert been there to give her that sort of ballast, I think she might have felt better about her marriage and looked to her father for the sort of intimate intellectual companionship and guidance she felt she needed.  In that I feel Eric's remark (#160) that "like Vicky, anyone man in Alice's life (except her brothers) had to be compared with her father (Prince Albert) and that is a tall order" was absolutely correct, and to a very large extent, it was the absence of the Prince Consort which really overshadowed her married life, rather than the man she did or didn't marry.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #184 on: October 08, 2012, 07:34:54 AM »
Thanks CountessKate. I guess had Princess Alice wasn't a princess or lived at that age, she would not have married at that age. She would have waited to find somebody that shared her intellectual level, someone like Professor Friedrich to Jo march in "Little Women". That is not to say that she wasn't happy with Ludwig of Hesse, but she would have been more fulfilled intellectually, a lack she discovered later in the marriage to Ludwig.

Offline eejm

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #185 on: January 09, 2014, 06:04:00 PM »
I just read something new about Louis and Madame Kolemine - evidently they had son.  He was born toward the end of 1884 in Venice, after Louis and Madame Kolemine had been forced to separate.  The little boy was sent to Russia at some point to be with the family of his half sisters (Alix and Ella) and became an officer in the Russian army.  I have no idea of his name or what became of him.  My sources are David Duff's The Shy Princess (his biography of Beatrice) and this magazine article: http://tinyurl.com/qcpa6zj

This is news to me if it is indeed true.  Does anyone know what happened to him?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #186 on: January 09, 2014, 09:50:16 PM »
Stories about a real or imagined son of the 2 popped up from time to time in the newspapers. One I read said that he ended up in Russia and was given a position of some sort by his sister Alix.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #187 on: January 12, 2014, 07:07:40 PM »
Never heard that story before. Did he exist ?

Offline grandduchessella

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They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #189 on: January 14, 2014, 12:09:51 PM »
Not too much info on the person.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #190 on: January 14, 2014, 02:18:58 PM »
Well, *if* he didn't exist, there wouldn't be too much on him. :)  If he did exist, the existence was very hush-hush so, again, not much to be found.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #191 on: January 15, 2014, 08:46:06 AM »
I don't think he existed based upon the evidence.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #192 on: January 15, 2014, 11:10:36 AM »
Interestingly, Mdme Kolemine was a cousin of the infamous writer Catherine Radziwill. By CR's own admission they didn't meet more than once but I wonder if the way the affair was handled colored her not-very-nice-to-say-the-least reflections on both Alix and Ella.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #193 on: January 15, 2014, 12:46:36 PM »
How were they related ?

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #194 on: January 21, 2014, 12:46:52 PM »
How were they related ?

Alexandrine von Kolemine's mother was Marianne Katarzyna Rzewuska and Catherine Radziwill's father was Adam Rzewuski, so presumably that was the connection; but I don't know exactly in what degree.