Author Topic: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch  (Read 86954 times)

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Offline Stardust

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2012, 07:30:51 PM »
 I don't know if anyone else  has notice  that G.D Dmitri addressed Natasha as "dearest Friend" in his letters to her, which he keeps stressing those words and of course we know of his romantic affections for her. but what I notice  is that he does  the same  with "dearest friend" in his letters to Felix yusupov.  It just gives a thought.... 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #106 on: August 18, 2012, 08:44:02 AM »
It was not terribly unusual then  for men to write to one another in terms which seem thoroughly over the top today. Admiral of the Fleet Sir John Fisher, who definitely had an eye for the girls (if not a girl in every port) wrote to one newspaper editor as 'my beloved Fiennes', and the soldier and diplomat Sir Mark Sykes addressed his lifelong friend Aubrey Herbert as 'my sweet Aubrey'. Both were married with several children - Sykes had six, despite dying from Spanish 'flu at 39, and Herbert four.

Dimitri as a young man seems to have had a tendency to melodrama, so calling both Yussoupov and Natasha 'dearest friend' may just be that, especially if he were not calling both 'dearest friend' at the same time.

Ann

Offline edubs31

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #107 on: August 18, 2012, 02:18:47 PM »
Ann is correct...and if you think Dmitri and Felix sound rather affectionate towards one another you should check out Nicholas's exchanges with the Kaiser (Pre-WWI) and with brother-in-law Ernie. Few men, even as relatives, would speak to each other in such a way in this day and age but things were different 100-plus years ago
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #108 on: August 20, 2012, 12:35:41 AM »
I do not know, but I still call my closest male friends "dear, dearest, loving,  etc. It may be old fashioned but it makes them happy. It shows true affection and such. They return in kind. Which makes me happy. In my case, it is a term of sincere affection, not politie 19 cenrury etttitique.
 I  reecntyly wrote an obit  about a friend and used all the flowering words I could think ,  a lot of which were not quiet really true,  but,  I do not spael ill of the dead, with few exceptions  So,  the old tradiition  has not gone. Especially in Asia.
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Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2012, 01:40:02 PM »
It is not how they address each other but the how they express themselves to each other.  Homosexual acts (I use the term that applied at the time in Russia) rather than gay were not uncommon particularly in the nobility.  Dimitri's step father (best term i can think of given the mess his early years were) was Gay. Felix was gay.  Many put on an act the evidence I believe is overwhelming
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2012, 02:48:08 PM »
'Dimitri's step father (best term i can think of given the mess his early years were) was Gay.'

Are you thinking of Grand Duke Sergei? Not a stepfather in the legal sense (married to Dimitri's mother). Foster father would be more accurate.

Ann (pedantic as ever).

Offline Duchess Hydrangea

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2012, 03:03:15 PM »
I do not know, but I still call my closest male friends "dear, dearest, loving,  etc. It may be old fashioned but it makes them happy. It shows true affection and such. They return in kind. Which makes me happy. In my case, it is a term of sincere affection, not politie 19 cenrury etttitique.
 I  reecntyly wrote an obit  about a friend and used all the flowering words I could think ,  a lot of which were not quiet really true,  but,  I do not spael ill of the dead, with few exceptions  So,  the old tradiition  has not gone. Especially in Asia.

I have to agree with this and especially in a letter. "Intimate Friend" is also another term I've heard used. I can't speak for Felix and Dmitri but I always think of Jonathan and David in the Bible. David said something along the lines that Jonathan's companionship was dearer to him than that of any woman's. 
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Offline feodorovna

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #112 on: September 10, 2012, 03:19:08 AM »
I do not know, but I still call my closest male friends "dear, dearest, loving,  etc. It may be old fashioned but it makes them happy. It shows true affection and such. They return in kind. Which makes me happy. In my case, it is a term of sincere affection, not politie 19 cenrury etttitique.
 I  reecntyly wrote an obit  about a friend and used all the flowering words I could think ,  a lot of which were not quiet really true,  but,  I do not spael ill of the dead, with few exceptions  So,  the old tradiition  has not gone. Especially in Asia.

I have to agree with this and especially in a letter. "Intimate Friend" is also another term I've heard used. I can't speak for Felix and Dmitri but I always think of Jonathan and David in the Bible. David said something along the lines that Jonathan's companionship was dearer to him than that of any woman's. 


In those times, I imagine that most women were still regarded as appendages to men. They were on show when occasion demanded it, displaying evidence of their husbands wealth. They were readily available, whenever the need arose, to sate certain appetites and most importantly, provided children...........but they weren't their husbands' best friends, possibly had no desire to be, but weren't given the opportunity. It was to another man that husbands were likely to turn to discuss those things that only men can talk about. I have my doubts about how much of their converserations involved "deep and meaningful", but certainly I think the men believed then necessary.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #113 on: September 10, 2012, 03:50:09 AM »
Interesting point. At risk of going slightly off the subject, I was talking to my father (aged 84 and an old-fashioned military man) last week about Prince Harry. He made the point that Prince Harry seems to have no close male friend - lots of rich pals to go to Las Vegas with, but no one to give him sound advice and rein him in where necessary. I think it's only recently that a man's wife has been expected to be his best friend (and vice versa) and it is assumed that they must 'do everything together'. A hundred years ago it was perfectly normal for a man to go off shooting or similar with his male friends for a couple of weeks, but he would no be thought to be neglecting his wife and children.

I think it's possible (but would put it no more strongly) that Dimitri was 'a bit bi', but apart from his affection for Yussupov (again, to put it no more strongly), all his known relationships were with women.

Ann

Offline Duchess Hydrangea

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #114 on: September 10, 2012, 07:41:47 AM »
Didn't Alexandra say that he (Dmitri) behaved like who ever he was with for the moment? That might be something to consider too. I wish I could remember where I read this. I know Felix admitted that he charmed people often. He writes afterward in "Lost Splendor"  that he knows saying so sounds vain.
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Offline edubs31

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #115 on: September 10, 2012, 08:53:10 AM »
Quote
Interesting point. At risk of going slightly off the subject, I was talking to my father (aged 84 and an old-fashioned military man) last week about Prince Harry. He made the point that Prince Harry seems to have no close male friend - lots of rich pals to go to Las Vegas with, but no one to give him sound advice and rein him in where necessary. I think it's only recently that a man's wife has been expected to be his best friend (and vice versa) and it is assumed that they must 'do everything together'. A hundred years ago it was perfectly normal for a man to go off shooting or similar with his male friends for a couple of weeks, but he would no be thought to be neglecting his wife and children.


Good point there Ann. I've even had guy friends telling me in the past, in confidence and prior to my own current relationship and marriage, that the key to success and happiness is that your girlfriend has to become your best friend. I don't necessarily disagree with this. Not only is Jen the person I am closest to spiritually and emotionally, but she's also the person I prefer to hang out with almost all of the time over others.

That's interesting what you and feodorovna had to say about how this idea of your spouse also being your best friend is probably a most recent phenomenon. Makes sense though as well since gender roles have been broken down a bit over time. Just yesterday I sat around watching and discussing football all day with Jen. Can't see too many husband and wife combos doing the equivalent of that back in the Victorian era...

Quote
I think it's possible (but would put it no more strongly) that Dimitri was 'a bit bi', but apart from his affection for Yussupov (again, to put it no more strongly), all his known relationships were with women.

How much should the following be taken into account though...

While homosexuality within the royal family might have been the worst kept secret in the court during this time there was still an obligation for men to marry women and raise families. Certainly views on homosexuality back then were not as liberalized as they've become in most western societies (although oddly enough Russia was possibly more accepting a hundred years ago than now)...the pressure to appear "straight" was greater then than it would be in most western societies today.

Also I think it important to separate sexual attraction with love and companionship. Obviously we can love family members and friends who we are not physically attracted to. It's not unimaginable that a Felix or Dmitri type could have had a sexual preference for other men while preferring a woman to be in an actual relationship with. Obviously essential for child bearing but also that they offered the kind of support, affection and tenderness a male spouse was not believed to be able to offer.

In many ways Felix really had the best of everything by marrying his charming and supportive wife Irina who also seemed open to his sexual dalliances with more sexually desirable young gentleman. That said, if we are to say that a Yusupov was probably bisexual with a preference for men (a '4' or '5' on the six-point "Kinsey Scale"), then in a more opened minded 2012 society it's probably just as likely that he would have been unmarried and in gay relationships. A bit harder to say with Pavlovich (who I think would score a point or two lower on the aforementioned scale) but this certainly would not have been out of the question as well.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 08:57:27 AM by edubs31 »
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Offline Duchess Hydrangea

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2012, 11:55:12 AM »
I think it will always be harder to say with Dmitri until their is proof out of his own words.  I say so because who would have ever guessed KR's struggle? I wouldn't have even been inclined to think.
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Offline Stardust

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2012, 07:21:01 PM »
I think it will always be harder to say with Dmitri until their is proof out of his own words.  I say so because who would have ever guessed KR's struggle? I wouldn't have even been inclined to think.


 I would never think of that Kr struggled since he was happily married and had 9 children.  Also the same can be be said about other Romanov men such as Nicholas Michailovich and Kyril who were rumored to had affairs with men, even though both seemed that they were strongly linked to women.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #118 on: September 12, 2012, 01:15:20 AM »
My view on KR is that he was predominantly heterosexual - 9 children indicates a fairly active sex life with Elizabeth Mavrikievna! - but had homosexual tendencies with which he struggled and at times could not resist.

I don't know a great deal about Nikolai Mikhailovich. He never married, and nowadays if a prominent man does not marry there are all kinds of rumours - maybe the rumours about him are no more than that. This was an age when plenty of men either did not marry or married quite late in life.

Ann

Offline edubs31

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Re: Felix Yusupov and Grand Duke Dmitriy Pavlovitch
« Reply #119 on: September 12, 2012, 10:11:24 AM »
My view on KR is that he was predominantly heterosexual - 9 children indicates a fairly active sex life with Elizabeth Mavrikievna! - but had homosexual tendencies with which he struggled and at times could not resist.

I don't know a great deal about Nikolai Mikhailovich. He never married, and nowadays if a prominent man does not marry there are all kinds of rumours - maybe the rumours about him are no more than that. This was an age when plenty of men either did not marry or married quite late in life.

Ann

I believe KR was known to be a frequent visitor of male brothels. He struggled with his inner demons regarding homosexuality (or perhaps just those "tendencies") because he felt that he was acting sinful...both in the sense of engaging in homosexual activities and since doing so was basically cheating on his wife. Yet he kept going back. It sounds to me like he either had an incredible sexual appetite that constantly needed to be fulfilled, or he was probably something less than "predominantly" heterosexual.
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