Author Topic: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?  (Read 120888 times)

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Offline Denise

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You know, Jeremy, I was wondering the very same thing.  I know that the photo on this board of FS has been touched up numerous times, supposedly to look more like AA.  Ok, then where is the original?  On PK's site there are 3 versions of that photo on various stages of touch up, and they all still look like AA.

Personally, I have no problem with her being FS, and it is a theory that fits well to the evidence.  Why is there so much resistance to the idea that she was a peasant?  That was only the status of her birth, and if AA was FS she obviously rose past it.  

Either way, I would be interested in other people's opinions as well.

Denise


Offline ISteinke

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2004, 03:53:33 PM »
Here's my take on it-
    I don't think the issue, while Anna Anderson was alive, had near so much to do with Franziska being a peasant, and from some sources I don't think that's the reasoning now.
    There really were/are a good number of people who believe that Anastasia Romanov and Anna Anderson were the same, identical human being. One's selfhood, one's identity, is a deeply precious and personal possession , maybe one of the most treasured things that any of us possess. I think the whole controversy [while AA was alive] had to do with this fundamental issue.
    Let's assume, for a moment, just for the sake of discussion, that Anna Anderson really was an adult Anastasia Romanov. If that were true, just imagine what a horror her life must have been- having nearly the whole world telling you that "you" are not in fact "you."
     
Anastasia: Hello! I'm alive!

Relative No. 1: No, you're not. You are not you. You'll have to prove that you exist.

Anastasia: I really do exist. Do you remember when we went to the lake together? Wasn't it such fun?

Relative No. 2: You don't really remember that? Someone told you. As a matter of fact, I have witnesses who will prove that you are not really you. In fact, I think you're a Polish girl named Franziska.

    Then, most of the world [listening to your relatives instead of you] denies you the right of your own identity, not for a year, or five years, but for 60 odd years of life afterward. Can you imagine what a horrible, isolated existance that would be?

     Imagine having to read headlines about yourself such as "The Lady's Not a Duchess."

     If AA really was Anastasia this may be the most notorious example of psychological manipulation of an individual's life [on a mass scale] that has ever occurred. Everyone had the right to decide who she was, except she. Would any of the rest of us submit to such a horrible, twisted twilight zone existance. How would you like to spend your whole life [proving that you were not dead] to a sceptical world? And by the way, who besides she really had any right to make an arrogant judgement call on her own identity?

    For those who knew her and loved her [such as Peter Kurth, the Melniks, and the Schweitzers] I believe that this is the motive. It isn't that they hate or hated  peasants in general It's that the whole peasant-Franziska thing was part of what they perceive as a mass injustice against someone they cared about. Part of the identity of that lady they cared about had to do with being a very educated, very cultured, very elegant [if somewhat eccentric] lady.

    If AA really had been Franziska, in the opinion of these people, I don't think they would deny it [just because she was a peasant]. I think in this case they see it as a serious affront to a friend, who had a very difficult life, due to an "identity crisis."

Offline Annie

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2004, 04:07:12 PM »
I have no problem with her being FS,  I think she was FS, and that she was a nice lady.

IMO the people who have such a fit over her being FS do so because:

*they were fooled by her and don't want to be ashamed a 'peasant' tricked them or their family,

or

*they are trying to prove that AA was still AN and don't like contrary arguments, especially ones that make too much sense.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2004, 05:08:24 PM »
I have no problem with her being anyoone EXCEPT AN. I do not have an opinion on her being FS or FU or anyone else. I simply do not know or really care.
However, I am convinced she was NOT Anastasia.
And, there certainly is nothing wrong with being Polish,  of any social bracket for goodness sake.
Cheers,
Robert
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Offline Michelle

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2004, 09:15:02 PM »
I agree with ISteinke.  And it just doesn't make sense to me that she even remotely could've been FS.  As for AA supporters being afraid of her being a peasant that is completely absurd! By no means would that ever make her any less of a person!  The truth is, it just doesn't make sense!  I'm basing my view much on Peter Kurth's writings.  Yes, I've read anti-Anna material too, but Kurth seems to have EVERY single infinitesimal detail down pat about AA, and it all points to her being without any question, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna.  

Val289

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2004, 10:52:38 PM »
I'm with ISteinke and Michelle on this one.  I think that AA's supporters didn't believe she was FS, simply because their experience with her (AA), and knowledge of her led them to believe otherwise.

Offline Annie

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2004, 09:06:36 AM »
How can you think the scientists who matched her so closely with FS was mistaken, yet the scientists examining the skeletons were not mistaken ??? as you stated on the other thread? At least in this case, there is a difference of opinion, US and UK scientists saying the skeleton is identified as Marie, Russians saying it's Anastasia. All the tests on FS/AA point to AA being not AN but FS with no second opinion on results :P
http://www.dnai.org/bioserver/clustalw_anna_and_carl.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

rskkiya

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2004, 09:49:17 AM »
Quote
It has nothing at all to do with FS having been a "Polish peasant" -- which, by the way, is overstating the case -- and everything to do with life experiences between the classes at that time being so far apart.  There was no "pop culture" or "world culture" to even things out and homogenize them.  There would have been oceans of difference between a Katchoubian farm-bred country girl and a Grand Duchess of Russia -- from the way each comported herself to the way each would speak even languages held in common to table manners to work ethic -- things would have been very different.  Far too different for someone to stretch a charade out for sixty years.

Anastasia Manahan was NOT Franziska Schanzkowska.  She MAY have been Grand Duchess Anastasia.  If she wasn't Grand Duchess Anastasia, then she was someone to whom aristocratic manners were first nature.


   No- I really cannot agree with the suggestion that she MAY have been GD Anastasia (what with the mDNA and all). It just makes no sense...
   Although your arguements regarding the cultural differences between a young polish girl and a russian Grand duchess are well put, I still don't see that the AA/FS connection is completely unfounded!
   People are capable of learning charm and numerous social nicieties -- even emotionally unstable people!

Rskkiya

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Val289

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2004, 10:28:16 AM »
Quote
 There would have been oceans of difference between a Katchoubian farm-bred country girl and a Grand Duchess of Russia -- from the way each comported herself to the way each would speak even languages held in common to table manners to work ethic -- things would have been very different.  Far too different for someone to stretch a charade out for sixty years.



Very well put, Penny.  And this is why I believe that most of AA's supporters do not believe she could have been FS.  Like rskkyia, I do believe that people can learn charm or certain social nicieties, but everything I've ever read about AA has been convincing enough to me to believe that she was NOT playing a part.    I believe that Princess Xenia Leeds once said that AA was completely herself... meaning that she never tried to be somebody that she was not.  In fact, she seems to never have gone out of her way to make (or keep!) friends or supporters.    It's seems to me that AA certainly believed herself to be Anastasia.  Obviously, whether she was or not, is probably a debate that will continue for a long time, in spite of any new evidence.  

Offline Annie

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2004, 10:43:10 AM »
AA DID believe herself to be Anastasia, that is something I do agree with. But that still doesn't mean she was.

Didn't Xenia Leeds eventually withdrawl her endorsement of AA and feel she had been taken?

The languages hold no evidence for me one way or the other because there are too many different tales and differences on what she spoke and when, and most of the 'witnesses' are only one obscure source for each story, and all we have is that person's word. They could have been lying, they could have been mistaken. The person who heard her speak Polish may have been mistaken. The person who said she spoke Russian in her sleep could have been mistaken. Anyone could have lied. I have never seen any reports that she woke up in the asylum speaking and understanding all the languages Anastasia did, they all came later, and since I don't know when or how she acquired these skills I set no store by them. When Felix Y. met her in 1927, he reported she only answered in German out of the four languages tried. German seemed to be her language of choice at least in the early days, and the one she was most familiar with. Pierre Gilliard said that of the four languages, German was far less used in the household than Russian, English or French, so that was strange to him that the real "Anastasia" would use it as her main language. (I'm guessing German was least used by the family since Russian and English were what they spoke among each other and French being the language of the court, and most German relations (Kaiser, Ella, Ernie, etc.) spoke and wrote in English with the IF.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Val289

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2004, 11:08:54 AM »
Annie - I do not think that Xenia withdrew her support for AA.  I know they had a bit of a falling out during her last few months at the Leed's estate, but I do believe that Xenia 'supported' AA in court.  I'm just going off of memory from PK's book though.  Perhaps Penny or Greg (or anyone else) could verify that?  And I do agree with you - just because AA thought she was Anastasia doesn't mean she was.    ;)

As far as her languagues are concerned.........I do believe that she DID speak and understand Russian.  She certainly understood it, as many people would question her in that language, and she could answer them, but would answer in another language.  There were reports by the nurses at the Dalldorf Asylum (some of these nurses worked in Russia and knew the language, if I'm not mistaken), and various statements by Gleb (and Tatiana, I think)Botkin, Princess Nina of Russia (Princess Paul Chavchavadze), and many others who said that she DID speak Russian.  Although I can understand that many people think it's just one person's word over another's at this point...

I know that many people here believe that AA was FS, so I hope I haven't stepped on any toes.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is allowed to respectfully disagree on this forum :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Val289 »

Offline Annie

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2004, 11:14:24 AM »
Again, the reports of whether or not she did or did not speak languages are way too vague for me to put much value on their authenticity. I especially do not take the word of her most ardent supporters as truth, they could have been saying that trying to support her case.

rskkiya

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2004, 01:30:10 PM »
Ok  I may be labouring under false information but I was under the impression that the DNA of  AA matched up with relatives of Franceska ?  How off track am I in this assumption?

rskkiya
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 10:20:51 AM by Alixz »

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2004, 01:37:39 PM »
The mtDNA of AA matched FS relatives, but with a slight variance, which means it was less than conclusive. the report was that it was PROBABLE she was related, but not for sure.
Don't forget also, that the mtDNA showed without QUESTION AA could not be related to Alexandra Feodrovna. (Im still waiting for anyone to show me the science that says otherwise...people claim it, but so far, no one has shown us one single reliable report otherwise.)

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: AA/FS Photo Comparison - Similarities: What is Wrong With AA Being FS?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2004, 02:52:04 PM »
I find it perfectly plausible that someone from a lower-class background, sufficiently intelligent and sufficiently motivated, could rise to become a grande dame in the highest social circles. Look at Jeanne Poisson (plain old Jane Fish, in English). She rose from the humblest origins imaginable to become Madame du Pompadour, maîtresse en titre of Louis XV, a highly cultivated patroness of the arts and a politician of considerable influence in her own right. And this was back in the eighteenth century, when there was even less mixing among the separate social classes than in the early 1900s, not to mention fewer popular publications about royalty to "study."
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