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Topic: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?  (Read 59028 times)
Reply #15
« on: July 23, 2007, 02:36:28 PM »
imperial angel Offline
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I would wonder if that letter is authentic as well. If so, it would tell us quite a bit about Elizabeth of York, who has always seemed a quiet personality to me. From what I know of Elizabeth Woodville, she might well have wanted the match, she was that type of woman. Her daughter seemed less  that way to me, just caring about status, or even having any real feelings for her uncle seems more unlikely. Richard III is much maligned in history, but  her brothers being declared illegetimate would you think have prevented him from even thinking of marrying her, because she would have been considered the same as her brothers. But, maybe not. Uncle- Niece marriages did happen,  the most well known examples being in the Spanish/ Austrian royal family, but it never happened in English history that I am aware of- thus it would have been unusual.
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Reply #16
« on: July 23, 2007, 05:05:24 PM »
dmitri Offline
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Yes I have never read anything about Richard III and Elizabeth of York.
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Reply #17
« on: July 23, 2007, 05:13:53 PM »
Helen_Azar Offline
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Probably most fascinating of all is a letter reportedly written in Elizabeth's own hand. If the letter is genuine, (and it is no longer extant), then Elizabeth consented to the marriage enthusiastically. In February 1485, Elizabeth of York wrote to the Duke of Norfolk expressing the hope that Queen Anne's illness would soon prove fatal and she would then marry her uncle King Richard. She fulsomely describes Richard as "her only joy and maker in this world" and that she was "his in heart, and in thoughts, in (body) and in all". (source= Buck). So, evidently she fancied the man as well as the crown he could bring her.

Well, for argument's sake, if Elizabeth's letter is authentic, then it would be likely that Elizabeth in fact liked (or loved) Richard enough to want to marry him. If the letter is fake, then the question is, why would anyone fake it (for what reason)? Who, when and why...   Huh
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Reply #18
« on: July 24, 2007, 01:56:13 AM »
Mari Offline
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Kimberly, I'am going to try to track down the Buck Source for the letter....

Amazing Elizabeth of York would feel this way all things considered.  Undecided
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 02:09:12 AM by Mari » Logged
Reply #19
« on: July 24, 2007, 01:59:10 AM »
Mari Offline
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Quote
you see, we are not talking sister marrying brother etc. posted by Kimberly

Yes, I just used the Egyptian Royal House as an example. I knew they were Uncle and Niece.
Quote

Yseult posted:
You´re wrong. The Catholic Church gave a lot of dispensations to european monarchs to marry their nieces. A few examples:

-Philip IV, king of Spain, did obtain the consent of the church for his marriage with Marianna of Austria. Marianna was a daughter of his own sister, Maria Ana of Spain, and she had been married to emperor Ferdinand III. Marianna, the niece and second wife of Philip IV, had been bethroted to Baltasar Carlos, a son of her husband. She was to be the daughter-in-law of uncle Philip...and she became the wife of the same uncle Philip. With the consent of the church Wink

-Margarita Teresa of Austria, infanta of Spain, married, with the consent of the church, emperor Leopold II. He was a brother of Marianna of Austria, the mother of Margarita. So, Marianna, married to her uncle Felipe, had a daughter and married the daughter to her own brother Leopold.

Yseult, that's why I asked if there any like this in European History?  Interesting...thanks!
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Reply #20
« on: July 24, 2007, 06:09:51 AM »
Helen_Azar Offline
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Amazing Elizabeth of York would feel this way all things considered.  Undecided

Well, not really if you consider some other theories, where Elizabeth didn't believe the alleged slanders against Richard, i.e. she did not believe he had anything to do with the murders of her brothers, etc... There is a different slant on this story, you know, where Richard III is actually a decent guy, and Henry Tudor is the sleazy one.
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Reply #21
« on: July 24, 2007, 06:12:14 AM »
Helen_Azar Offline
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I'm still wondering if anyone has any theories about the reasons why anyone would forge Elizabeth's letter, if we are to believe that it is fake.
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Reply #22
« on: July 24, 2007, 03:31:03 PM »
imperial angel Offline
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 I admit I am not a real expert on this period of English history, before the Tudors. But,  as there are so many theories, does anyone know if any book examined this letter, and what they had to say? If someone does, quote the book. I guess most accept the Tudor version of this period of English history, but that's not the whole story, that is accurate. Someone trying to support the non- Tudor version of history might well have tried to forge it, but maybe that's obvious, because it was to show Richard III as a good guy, in a good light, because if his niece had that opinion of him, how could he be the villain portrayed in the Tudor Version of history? I tend to think this might have been forged, it seems improbable, but it seems this possible romance was just one of the swirling rumors of this era.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 03:39:00 PM by imperial angel » Logged
Reply #23
« on: July 25, 2007, 03:17:55 PM »
Mari Offline
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I found this on the Richard III site and it pretty much deals with the letter and the discussion of any marriage between Richard III and his niece stated as "unnatural copulation."



If this letter really existed (91), and if Buck has cited it fairly, it would be in vain to contend against such testimony, and Elizabeth's fame would be irredeemably affected, not on the ground of her relationship to Richard, but from his being the author of the misfortunes and disgrace of her family, if not the murders of her brothers; and because she had pledged herself but a few months before to marry the Earl of Richmond. The character of Buck as a faithless writer is well known; and even if his notorious inaccuracies and prejudices do not justify the suspicion that the letter itself was never written, it is not too much to suggest that the interpretation which he has given to it is at variance with the truth. As Buck has inserted copies of several documents of much less interest, it may be asked, why did he not give this most important letter at length? Nor is it less remarkable, that even if he were the first person who brought it to light, no other individual should have had sufficient curiosity to copy it. Buck's work appeared in the days of Dugdale, of Anthony Wood, and of several other eminent antiquaries, who have left imperishable monuments of their zeal in collecting historical materials, yet not a single transcript, much less the original of this extraordinary communication, is known to be extant. No other writer than Buck ever saw it, so that its existence rests upon his authority alone, and every one must form his own judgement as to the degree of confidence to which he is entitled (92). The Chroniclers, who impute to Richard the design of marrying his niece, agree in stating that she resolutely opposed his wishes. Grafton's words are, "But because all men, and the maiden herself most of all, detested and abhorred this unlawful and in manner unnatural copulation, he determined to prolong and defer the matter till he were in more quietness;" and this is the only explanation he gives, why, when Queen Anne died in March, 1485, Richard did not execute his design. The Croyland Chronicler, however, offers this additional reason, that twelve doctors in theology gave it as their opinion that the Pope could not legalize it by any dispensation. If this be true, it is not very evident from what source the Pontiff derives the power of authoriizing such an alliance at the present day, even if instances cannot be adduced of the practice at the period in question.

For the reasons which have been stated, it may be presumed tha Richard never contemplated a marriage with Elizabeth; that the letter noticed by Buck is grossly misquoted, even if any letter to that purport was ever written by her; and that the whole tale was invented with the view of blackening Richard's character, to gratify the monarch in whose reign all the contemporary writers who relate it flourished, an opinion which is supported by the fact that not one of them insinuates that Elizabeth consented to the alliance, but agree in stating her utter repugnance to the project
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Reply #24
« on: July 26, 2007, 05:34:44 AM »
Kimberly Offline
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Sir George Buck was actually an apologist for Richard. He was a descendent of one of Richard's supporters.
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Reply #25
« on: August 03, 2007, 08:18:24 AM »
Helen_Azar Offline
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Helen, off the top of my head, these are the ones I remember from Maureen Peters;
Kathryn the Wanton Queen (Kate Howard).
Anne the Rose of Hever (Anne Boleyn).
Princess of Desire (Mary-Rose Tudor).
Mary the Infamous Queen (Mary Tudor)
The Woodville Wench.
All good reads. Wink  (But somewhat naff titles Grin).


I was able to get Kathryn the Wanton Queen at the library and read it last week. Wasn't bad, but didn't like it as much as the others by Peters... The others are impossible to get at the library, so I purchased Pss of Desire and Rose of Hever on Amazon. The rest seem kind of hard to find (they are more common in the UK not in the US  Sad)...
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Reply #26
« on: August 08, 2007, 11:10:56 AM »
FaithWhiteRose Offline
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I am reading the novel "Elizabeth the Beloved" where the plot includes Elizabeth of York being in love with her uncle Richard... I know that there was at some point speculation of Richard marrying Elizabeth after his wife Anne died, but not sure how real it was... Is this notion of the romance between the niece and uncle purely the author's fantasy or was there really something to it? I don't know enough about those two to be able to say one way or another. Any thoughts?

I think the author probably did this just to add some extra drama, which always spices a book up. I don't think Richard and Elizabeth carried on a both scandalous and incestuous affair because that is just beyond Elizabeth's personality, becausewhen Henry VII came she was submissive---not what the kind of temptress her mother was. If Elizabeth ever was in love with her uncle it might have been the kind of crush that one would feel on a celebrity, if you understand what I mean.
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Reply #27
« on: August 08, 2007, 11:37:37 AM »
Helen_Azar Offline
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I think the author probably did this just to add some extra drama, which always spices a book up. I don't think Richard and Elizabeth carried on a both scandalous and incestuous affair because that is just beyond Elizabeth's personality, becausewhen Henry VII came she was submissive---not what the kind of temptress her mother was. If Elizabeth ever was in love with her uncle it might have been the kind of crush that one would feel on a celebrity, if you understand what I mean.

Well, in the book, it was portrayed more or less like that. It wasn't "an affair" per say, they didn't have sex, or anything like that. They just loved each other, but it never went too far physically. Elizabeth wasn't portrayed as a temptress who seduced her uncle, sorry if I didn't make that clear in my post...
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Reply #28
« on: August 08, 2007, 04:11:57 PM »
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It's alright!  Smiley But like I said, her 'love' for her uncle might have just been a girlish crush, or something like that. Maybe it was solid admiration that led to that.  Huh
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Reply #29
« on: August 09, 2007, 09:15:15 AM »
imperial angel Offline
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It is hard to say about whether solid admiration led to that, or it was just a youthful passing thing of really no consequence except that it involved one of the more controversial kings of English history, and also the Elizabeth of York, who as the queen of Henry VII and a new dynasty, but also a link to an old dynasty, was an important figure in English history. I don't think it was an objective thing, instead I would say, it was just passing youthful interest, if that much. I'm sure it isn't something that the Tudors would have wanted remembered, provided it was real, but it wasn't of much consequence. I guess I had the impression from the first post it was a full blown affair or something, so thanks for clarifying that.
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