Author Topic: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?  (Read 119277 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2009, 06:01:10 PM »
Not really. Who was to say she was not ill then. She was well taken care of. If Richard III continue to rule, I doubt she would be allowed to be buried with her husband. Think about that...

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2009, 03:05:36 AM »
What do you mean, "not really"? That is fact, although she was not held incommunicado.Henry granted her an annuity of 400 marks of which most would have gone to the Abbey for her upkeep. The 400 marks was considerably less than the 700 marks granted by Richard III and was not always paid promptly.
Elizabeth requested that she be buried with Edward at St Georges Chapel with little pomp,in her will. Requests for a modest funeral were a mark of humility and were,by and large, ignored by contemporaries who felt that the deceased should be buried in accordance with their rank in society.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2009, 09:29:01 AM »
I think more about her position as Queen Dowager (she was even consider as a possible bride as the King of Scotland). Elizabeth's daughters were all reconized as royal princesses. The fact that Elizabeth herself asked for little pomp shown at her furneral shown great understanding to her son-in-law. The Tudor dynasty was just established and too much attention on a Yorkist Queen's furneral may not be a wise thing or used as a rally point for people against the king. THe fact was in all probability, Elizabeth Woodville was broken in spirit after the deaths of so many of her family (the last one her beloved brother Anthony Earl Rivers) than she would prefer to live a quiet life. She had the satisfaction of seeing her daughter established Queen and attended christening of her grandchildren.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2009, 12:42:28 PM »
she wasn't so squeaky clean towards the end though. Rumours abounded that there was a lot to oust Tudor from the throne and have Elzabeth (junior) as reigning monarch.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2009, 02:17:22 PM »
That had no historical base whatsoever. After being treated as "Dame Elizabeth Grey" by Richard III, she was grateful to have the title of Queen back and her daughters well settled and married. I would think the offer of her as the bride of the Scottish king was a test of Henry Tudor to see if his mother-in-law was still interested in politics, but she passed the test.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2009, 04:32:39 PM »
As I said.... "rumours abounded"!!!
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2009, 05:02:24 PM »
Yes unsubstainciated. At that stage, there are many who sought to challenge Henry Tudor, because of the shaky claim to the throne. Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy being one of them. It would be politically necessary for Henry VII to down play Elizabeth Woodville's influence and increase Margaret Beaufort's. There was no hard core evidence that she was forced to retire to a nunnary, but every reason to politically and health may have been a factor too. Both Eleanor of Aquitaine and Eleanor of Provence spent the last few years of their lives in a sanchury of their choosing.

Offline Terence

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2009, 08:20:27 PM »
Actually the evidence that her "retirement" to the nunnery was forced rather than voluntary is that she was stipped of her possesions.  Here's one take on the issue:
But in February 1487 she was stripped of her lands and sent to a nunnery, effectively banished from court on the trumped-up charge that she had been involved in the campaign of the false Yorkist claimant Lambert Simnel. In fact, she was the victim of Margaret Beaufort's jealousy.
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/M/monarchy/biogs/elizabeth_woodville.html

The most comon theory I've run across is that she WAS invovled in the Lambert Simnel uprising and for that Henry VII took her lands and locked her up.  It is known she was not present at her daughter's cornation and her daughter the Queen rarely visited her.  That suggests there was some kind of rupture in the relationship.

T

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2009, 09:50:45 AM »
As I said the dynasty was still new and it was important to promote Margaret Beaufort (as the King's mother) than Elizabeth Woodville (the Dowager Queen and the Queen's mother). The lands she had were written off to her own daughter (Elizabeth of York). The same happened to Anne Beauchamp, Countess of Warrick, when Gloucester and Clarence divided their mother-in-law's fortune without consideration for her inheritance. She lived in proverty before allowed to live with Anne. Elizabeth Woodville fared better and have her household allowances paid for. She was not "locked up" but "retired from court". She would be a rallying point for any imposter for the princes, and so it is important to keep an eye on her. Again it would be impossible to promote Elizabeth Woodville as Queen of Scotland if Henry Tudor believed that she was "a troublemaker". I think she was under suspsion there was no doubt.

Offline ilyala

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2009, 01:55:12 PM »
exactly my point, eric. she was forced to retire and judging by what i know of her she wasn't really a nun kind of person so i'm sure she didn't enjoy it at all.

i wonder how her daughter, the queen felt about that. i've read nothing of that upsetting her relationship with her kingly husband. which might mean that:

a. elizabeth woodville HAD done something naughty (other involving simnel or something else) and elizabeth of york believed the punishment fit the crime
b. elizabeth of york was completely under henry's influence (fear, love, respect, all of the above) and not very close to her mother (how close were they, really?)
c. elizabeth of york did not want to compromise her position as queen so she kept her opinions to herself, even if she might have had sympathy for her mother.

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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2009, 03:40:11 PM »
I think it was a combination of b and c- she didn't wish to comprimise her position, but I also feel she was under Henry's influence by that time and was more than happy to go along what he said. 15th- 16th century wives were expected to submit to their husband's will and do as he said, and Elizabeth knew that and knew her first loyalty was to her husband, not her mother, who indeed she may not have been close to.It would be very modern for Elizabeth of York to stand up for her mother, and very 15-16th century for her not have as many feelings about what happened to her mother as we might assume she would today.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2009, 03:41:02 PM »
I think c, since she was Henry Tudor's queen, her loyalty must lie with her husband. I don't think Elizabeth Woodville was particularly naughty, but it would be a way to get out of Margaret Beaufort's jealousy and court intrigue. Also it seems it was Henry Tudor's policy to down play the Yorkist family in favour of his own family. Anyway Elizabeth Woodville was not really locked up. She was there for Margaret Tudor's birth and led the French delegation ( led by her nephew Francois of Luxenbourg) to see the Queen (her daughter). It seems in international matters, Elizabeth Woodville was allowed some leeway.

Offline Terence

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2009, 04:42:24 PM »
Anyway Elizabeth Woodville was not really locked up. She was there for Margaret Tudor's birth and led the French delegation ( led by her nephew Francois of Luxenbourg) to see the Queen (her daughter). It seems in international matters, Elizabeth Woodville was allowed some leeway.

That makes sense, considering her Luxembourg connections, Henry was more than happy to use her to his benefit.  The fact that she was allowed out on occassion doesn't mean her "retirement" to a nunnery was of her own volition.  No one said she was locked in there Eric.

What is telling is that she was NOT allowed to attend her own daughter's coronation.  I think we may be in agreement on this aspect, Margaret Tudor didn't want any other female to overshadow her.  IIRC, Henry watched the coronation from behind a screen, or hiding spot (Kings didn't attend the Queens coronation), but Margaret also watched it from a hidden spot (w/ Henry?).  Anyone else heard of this?

T

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2009, 05:34:03 PM »
Well...Queens seldom attend the coronation of their daughters. (I don't think Queen Alexandra went to her daughter Queen Maud's coronation in Oslo). I think Elizabeth Woodville understood that as a Yorkist Queen, it would be embaressment for her to attend. Also you are right, as Dowager Queen, she would outrank Margaret Beaufort (King's mother). There is also no evidence that she asked to attend (a letter indicating her desire to go), it was also possible (without document to prove the contary) that she was not feeling well and glad not to be in court. The loss of her family (sons and brothers) might be an impatus for her to keep a low profile.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Romance between Elizabeth of York and Richard III?
« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2009, 12:55:17 PM »
My personal opinion is that Henry VII, while he sometimes felt physical attraction and even affection for Elizabeth of York, for the most part felt utter contempt for her, and that this attitude was communicated, however unconsciously, by his attitude and behavior towards her, to their children and in particular to their second son, the future Henry VIII. I mean, let's face it, if we look at the marital relationships of Henry VIII, it's quite clear that he had some kind of major, deep-seated psychological complex where women were concerned - worse, that at the most basic level he simply did not respect women as human beings. After all, the two women he loved the most passionately in his entire life died on the scaffold, at his orders. Not normal behavior, even or especially for a Renaissance king, and it made him the laughingstock of his peers in Europe, as well as a dreaded Bluebeard figure. Remember the beautiful Duchess Christina of Milan, who refused to wed the ardent English king, lest she met the fate of his second wife (or for that matter, his first)?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 12:57:05 PM by Elisabeth »
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