Author Topic: "Mediatized" - what is it?  (Read 45586 times)

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Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 10:04:34 AM »
Or rather, their imperial immediacy was personal; they did not posess an immediate fief which gave them a vote in the Imperial Diet, I think.

Here is what I found about Wilhelm I and Princess Elisa Raziwill...

"His father and her kinsman King Frederick William III was fond of the relationship between Wilhelm and Elisa, but some in the Prussian court had discovered historical allegations that her ancestors had bought their princely title from Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor."

Another quote talks about the influence of others to this match:

"Another factor was the influence of the Mecklenburg relations of the deceased Queen Louise in the German and Russian courts who were not fond of Elisa's father and against the possible marriage.Elisa was also considered not sufficiently royal because her father was not a reigning prince."

Can anyone tell me who was the "reigning" Radziwill Prince at that time or the Head of the family?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 10:09:36 AM by Marc »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 12:15:44 PM »
Hm, OK, but the question remains:
According to the German Acts of Confederation, all mediatized sovereign houses, whether comital, margravial, princely or ducal were equal. But in reality it seems some were more equal than others...Did ever a member of an Illustrious (Erlaucht) mediatized comital house marry into a reigning royal, ducal or princely family?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 12:18:51 PM by Tainyi Sovetnik »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 12:44:49 PM »
Yes,they were equal under the law but you see that every House has/had it's own rules written or not,as in case of Prussia where there is no single document about it...

For example,in Baden there was a strange House law that "requires equal marriages for transmission in female line only."

Example of Oldenburg where they say:"Mitgliedern eines anderen christlichen souverainen Hauses..."

Example of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha where it is said:"Fürstliche oder gut Gräfliche Häuser" which means Princely or a high-standing Countly House is needed...

While in Lippe equal status "requires consent of head of house"

So,every House moderated the rules and you see that requirement of what is "equal" is left to every House to decide where for example a Countess X that gets the permission from the Head of the House of Lippe is considered equal by his consent,while she might not be considered as such in the Principality of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha...so,it seems everything in the end depends on family rules...

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 02:00:23 PM »
Did ever a member of an Illustrious (Erlaucht) mediatized comital house marry into a reigning royal, ducal or princely family?

If you count just female Illustrius Highness members married into reigning families here are few examples after mediatization in 1806:


Reigning Fürst Heinrich LXIII Reuss zu Schleiz-Köstritz married two times,both times to Countesses von Stolberg-Wernigerode who were daughters of an Illustrius Highness...

Reigning Fürst Heinrich XXXIX Reuss zu Schleiz-Köstritz married her Illustrius Highness Countess Antonia von Castell-Castell...

Reigning Fürst Aloys II von und zu Liechtenstein married her Illustrius Highness Franziska Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau,daughter of Count Franz de Paula...

Prince Heinrich XXVIII Reuss zu Köstritz married her Illustrius Highness Countess Magdalene Benigna von Solms-Laubach...

Prince Heinrich XXV Reuss married her Illustrius Hignhess Countess Elisabeth von Solms-Laubach...


Don't know if you count for example her Illustrius Highness Countess Helena von Khevenhüller-Metsch who married two times to Bavarian Princes because she married them after 1919 when titles were abolished in Germany...but in the eyes of the Bavarian House she is considered equal!


If you want to count Illustrius Highness male members marrying female members of reigning royal,ducal or princely families there are also examples after 1806...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 02:04:22 PM by Marc »

Offline Eutropius

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2010, 04:54:02 PM »
I know the Schleswig-Holsteins weren't technically a ruling family.  But they were often treated as such and were added to the line of succession for the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg.  Their were almost two cases in that family:
Prince Albrecht of Schleswig-Holstein was married Countess Ortrud zu Isenburg-Buedingen in Meerholz in 1906. 
I remember reading in one of John C. G. Roehl's books that Kaiser Wilhelm tried to encourage his infamous brother-in-law Ernst Guenther to marry a Countess v. Schlitz gen. v. Goertz as well...

I think that maybe one way to think about the ebenbuertigkeit and mediatized houses is that no other sovereign house would question the dynasticity of another sovereign house's marriage to one of the mediatized houses.  I think to some extent, the choice to allow these marriages was left to the individual heads of each house. 

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2010, 10:31:12 PM »
Did ever a member of an Illustrious (Erlaucht) mediatized comital house marry into a reigning royal, ducal or princely family?
If you count just female Illustrius Highness members married into reigning families here are few examples after mediatization in 1806:
Reigning Fürst Heinrich LXIII Reuss zu Schleiz-Köstritz married two times,both times to Countesses von Stolberg-Wernigerode who were daughters of an Illustrius Highness...
Reigning Fürst Heinrich XXXIX Reuss zu Schleiz-Köstritz married her Illustrius Highness Countess Antonia von Castell-Castell...
Reigning Fürst Aloys II von und zu Liechtenstein married her Illustrius Highness Franziska Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau,daughter of Count Franz de Paula...
Prince Heinrich XXVIII Reuss zu Köstritz married her Illustrius Highness Countess Magdalene Benigna von Solms-Laubach...
Prince Heinrich XXV Reuss married her Illustrius Hignhess Countess Elisabeth von Solms-Laubach...

Thanks! Interesting that it was the Reusses, who had been mere Imperial Counts themselves until the late 18th century who married a lot of scions of illustrious comital houses.

Don't know if you count for example her Illustrius Highness Countess Helena von Khevenhüller-Metsch who married two times to Bavarian Princes because she married them after 1919 when titles were abolished in Germany...but in the eyes of the Bavarian House she is considered equal!

Interesting example. Interesting to note that these Bavarian princes were descendants of the elsewhere discussed match between a Princess of Bavaria and a mere Count von Seefried auf Buttenheim - not immediate imperial nobility at all and a mere baron before Emperor Franz Joseph made him an Austrian count.

I know the Schleswig-Holsteins weren't technically a ruling family.  But they were often treated as such and were added to the line of succession for the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg.  Their were almost two cases in that family:
Prince Albrecht of Schleswig-Holstein was married Countess Ortrud zu Isenburg-Buedingen in Meerholz in 1906.  
I remember reading in one of John C. G. Roehl's books that Kaiser Wilhelm tried to encourage his infamous brother-in-law Ernst Guenther to marry a Countess v. Schlitz gen. v. Goertz as well...
Ah, interesting!

I think that maybe one way to think about the ebenbuertigkeit and mediatized houses is that no other sovereign house would question the dynasticity of another sovereign house's marriage to one of the mediatized houses..
Wow, that's an intellectually great definition!  

I think to some extent, the choice to allow these marriages was left to the individual heads of each house.

Hm, I can see how that fits well with your definition above, but I feel that excluding the illustrious comital houses from the list of approved spouse material (like in Emperor Franz Joseph's 1900 list) violates the original Article 14, a), of the 1815 German Act of Confederation:

Daß diese Fürstlichen und gräflichen Häuser fortan nichts destoweniger zu dem hohen Adel in Deutschland gerechnet werden, und ihnen das Recht der Ebenbürtigkeitkeit, in dem bisher damit verbundenen Begriff verbleibt;
=
Art. 14. That diese Princely and comital houses henceforth nevertheless are regarded as belonging to the high nobility in Germany, and that they remain in posession of the right of Ebenbürtigkeit in the notion held until now.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 10:33:38 PM by Tainyi Sovetnik »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 08:42:40 AM »
You can see that some Houses included this in their House law,like the Reuss family you mentioned earlier because this kind of marriage could NOT be denied by House Law:

"...consent cannot be refused for marriage to members of the confederation or families equal by virtue of art. 14."

Other Houses have not included this in their House Law,like Hohenzollern-Hechingen and Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen branches for example where they say:

"aus dem alten hohen Adel oder aus einer dem Grafenstande gleich geachteten Familie"

Here the criteria is not the virtue of art. 14 but just "old nobility or equal respected countly family" which means that some families who are not included in art. 14 could be equal "respected" by the this particular House and treated equal...

So,in history you can see that for example Reichsfürsten von Hohenzollern-Hechingen contracted many marriages which could not be treated equal by other Houses and were treated equal by them...For example:

The marriage between Fürst Wilhelm Heinrich with Baroness Maximiliane von Lützau was treated equal

The marriage between Fürst Josef with Maria Theresia Folch de Cardona y Silva was also treated equal

The marriage between Prince Friedrich and Countess Theresie von Wildenstein was also equal

The marriage between Prince Friedrich Anton with Countess Ernestine von Sobeck und Kornitz-also equal

The marriage between their son Prince Hermann with Baroness Karoline von Weiher

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2010, 11:20:23 AM »
Did ever a member of an Illustrious (Erlaucht) mediatized comital house marry into a reigning royal family?
Hardly into a reigning princely or ducal family, I think.

Some more examples of such marriages from various other families after 1806:


Her Illustrius Highness Countess Maria Anna von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg and Prince Ludwig von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

His Illustrius Highness Count Franz Xaver von Stolberg-Wernigerode and Princess Barbara of Two-Sicilies

His Illustrius Highness Count Eberhard von Stolberg-Wernigerode and Princess Marie Reuss zu Köstritz

His Illustrius Highness Count Alfred von Stolberg-Stolberg and Princess Auguste von Waldeck und Pyrmont

His Illustrius Highness Count Bernhard von Stolberg-Stolberg and Archduchess Hedwig of Austria

His Illustrius Highness Count Georg von Waldburg zu Zeil und Hohenems and Archduchess Elisabeth of Austria -Tuscany

His Illustrius Highness Count Georg von Waldburg zu Zeil und Hohenems and Archduchess Gertrude of Austria -Tuscany

His Illustrius Highness Count Eberhard von Waldburg zu Zeil und Wurzach and Princess Maximiliane von Hohenzollern-Hechingen

His Illustrius Highness Count Friedrich Magnus zu Solms-Wildenfels and Princess Antoinette von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt

Her Illustrius Highness Countess Monika von Solma-Laubach and Prince Ernst August von Hannover

His Illustrius Highness Count Hans von Solms-Baruth and Princess Karoline Mathilde von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg

His Illustrius Highness Count Hans Veit zu Törring-Jettenbach and Duchess Sophie in Bayern

His Illustrius Highness Count Friedrich von Ysenburg und Büdingen in Meerholz and Princess Marie von Reuss-ältere linie

Her Illustrus Highness Countess Gisela von Ysenburg und Büdingen in Meerholz and Prince Friedrich Wilhelm zur Lippe-Biesterfeld

Her Illustrius Highness Countess Auguste Ysenburg und Büdingen in Philippseich and Prince Heinrich zu Waldeck und Pyrmont

Her Illustrius Highness Countess Pauline zu Ortenburg and Prince Christian zur Lippe

Her Illustrius Highness Countess Ilka zu Ortenburg and Duke Johann von Oldenburg

His Illustrius Highness Count Friedrich zu Castell-Rüdenhausen and Princess Karoline Mathilde von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

His Illustrius Highness Count Wolfgang zu Castell-Castell and Princess Sibylle von Reuss

His Illustrius Highness Count Luitpold zu Castell-Castell and Princess Feodora of Denmark

His Illustrius Highness Count Ferdinand von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg and Princess Maria Franziska von und zu Liechtenstein

His Illustrius Highness Count Viktor von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg and Princess Edina von und zu Liechtenstein

and so on...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 11:27:40 AM by Marc »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2010, 04:00:49 AM »
You can see that some Houses included this in their House law,like the Reuss family you mentioned earlier because this kind of marriage could NOT be denied by House Law:
"...consent cannot be refused for marriage to members of the confederation or families equal by virtue of art. 14."

OK, you have convinced me that Art. 14 must be interpreted as saying that nobody can be forced to marry scions of illustrious comital houses (to put it a bit jokingly), but that the Ebenbürtigkeit of such a match cannot be questioned, as Eutropius said. And wow, how many examples you've found!!!

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2010, 07:16:35 AM »
Well,I just love debating on such issues...I am also a bit confused here because art. 14 is saying that all members of such Houses were equal generally and yet it is up to a certain House law to decide...

There is an example for it and how much this meant for the high-aristocrats...Countess Bertha Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau(later Baroness von Suttner) speaks in her memoires about it...her father was of course the famous Austrian Field Marshal Franz Josef Kinsky who died while she was a child,but her mother was just an untitled noblewoman from Thüringen Sophie Wilhelmine von Körner.In the eyes of Kinsky House she was recognized as a full member,but in the eyes on society she was not...she says this in her memoires where she speaks about the thing that she could not be presented at the Austrian Court in Vienna because she doesn't have enough "equal" ancestors...she also speaks this when she describes her attending a ball...she said that everyone would politely greet her mother,but nobody from "this set" wanted to be in her company and she often sat alone because she did not belong to any of the great families by birth...

Here is an example one person treated equal by it's own House and the other example of not being treated equal by other Houses despite her official "equalness" of it's own House because of her mothers lower birth...So,we have here a full member of mediatized family with the qualification of Illustrius Highness(that means that under art. 14 she is equal) not being treated equal because some other Houses had different law under whom this kind of member would not be treated equal...

The same goes for Countess Mathilde von Limburg-Stirum...she was recognised as a full member of the House of Limburg-Stirum despite her mother being non-noble,but it's own House full membership doesn't change the blood so she would be not recognised as such in the eyes of House laws of other "equal" Houses-despite the fact that she was indeed equal under Art. 14 which requires a full membership of the mediatized House for being treated equal...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 07:21:07 AM by Marc »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2010, 07:40:09 AM »
There is also one example that describes different House Laws of certain mediatized Houses...

We had seen that when a member of mediatized House marries an untitled noblewoman their marriage could be treated equal by it's own House Laws-example of Kinsky/von Körner marriage...

Well,in eyes of other Houses this kind of marriage would not be treated equal-example is His Illustrius Highness Count Alexander von Castell-Rüdenhausen...his first marriage to Baroness Otilie von Faber was not treated equal by his House Law despite the fact that she was titled noblewoman and he had to renounce his Castell-Rüdenhausen titles for him and his children who were not considered dynasts of the Castell-Rüdenhausen line...They were created Counts von Faber-Castell and Countess Floria-Franziska von Faber-Castell is one of his descendants who married Erbprinz Heinrich von Hessen-Kassel and her marriage was treated equal despite the fact that she is a descendant of morganatic branch...something similar to Battenbergs who married equaly despite being morganauts...

Yet,this same Count Alexander von Castell-Rüdenhausen(Illustrius Highness by birth) made a second marriage to Countess Margit Zedtwitz von Moravan und Duppau who was considered equal by Castell-Rüdenhausen House Laws and so he resumed his original titles for himself, his second wife, and their son Count Radulf Friedrich...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 07:44:23 AM by Marc »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2010, 08:50:48 AM »
Art. 14 is just saying that all members of mediatized houses were equal with the reigning ones,but this document doesn't go further as to who is supposed to be "good enough" to be a full member of mediatized House...

You have an example of Her Illustrius Highness Countess Donata von Castell-Rüdenhausen(married into Prussia and Oldenburg families),daughter of Fürst zu Castell-Rüdenhausen and Countess von Solms-Laubach,who has all 4 grandparents from equal families and 7 out of 8 nearest ancestors from equal mediatized families...and an example of Countess Mathilde von Limburg-Stirum who has only 1 of 8 nearest ancestors being equal...

So,under Art. 14 both Countess Donata von Castell-Rüdenhausen and Countess Mathilde von Limburg-Stirum were treated equal because of their full membership to mediatized Houses,but in the eyes of other Houses and their Laws they were not equal because one has 7 out of 8 equal ancestors where 8th unequal ancestor is a Dutch Baroness and the other has only 1 equal out of 8 nearest ancestors where 4 are commoners...

Based on this I think that House Laws of other Houses wanted to prevent these so called "equal" members of mediatized Houses who had only 1 of 8 equal ancestors to enter an ancient House just based on Art. 14 that allowed them to do so...

Art. 14 is based just on membership and doesn't go into requirements,so it is left for every House to arrange their House Laws and requirements they feel would be fitting for entering their House as a full member...that's why in the eyes of reigning Houses they were not all the same-some members of mediatized Houses were treated equal and some were not based on blood of it's ancestors...

This means that Art. 14 treated just MEMBERSHIP as a merit for "equal" while House laws of other reigning Houses treated "EQUAL BLOOD" as a merit despite Art.14 document!Remember House of Prussia didn't question membership of Princess Augusta von Schleswig-Holstein to an "equal" House prior to her marriage but her blood-where they said that Hohenlohes were considered "good enough" while Dannenskiold-Samsoe were just a "mere counts"-this is a quote from Kaiser Wilhelm's biography!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 09:09:19 AM by Marc »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2010, 02:04:35 AM »
Gosh, I though I was obsessed by mediatized houses.... :-)

Seriously, very interesting what you write, Marc. The distinction you put up between mere membership of a mediatized house and being considered "of equal blood" by other houses mirrors very well the afore-mentioned 1900 Addition to the Habsburg House Law, which states that if the mediatized princely house in question did not have strict Ebenbürtigkeit rules, the wanna-be princely Habsburg spouse had to fill in a form to show that all 16 great-great grandparents and the four main great-great-great grandparents were noble! One starts to suspect where the Nazis got their ideas from....

I never knew that were a princely and imperial Kinsky line. But was Bertha von Suttner from that line? Or was her father "just" an Austro-Bohemian Count like the present Princess of Liechtenstein's father appearantly was. Argh, these "immediate imperial personalists" without mediatized fiefs really confuse and mess these things up, don't they?

So it seems that Art. 14 was not very well thought out, just like the whole situation of the meditatized sovereigns, who were left with semi-public administrative, judicial and police powers in their former territories untill the population revolted against it in 1848.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 02:13:45 AM by Rœrik »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2010, 08:59:51 AM »
And I thought that I am the only one interested in this kind of issues ;-)

Yes,there were two lines of Kinsky families...younger branch of the family was Fürstlich and elder one was Countly branch...Bertha belonged to the elder branch for example and Countess Maria Aglaë who married Hans Adam II von und zu Liechtenstein belongs to the other Princely line despite the fact that she was just great-granddaughter of 7th  Fürst Ferdinand Bonaventura Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau!

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2010, 08:13:14 PM »
I never knew that were a princely and imperial Kinsky line. But was Bertha von Suttner from that line? Or was her father "just" an Austro-Bohemian Count like the present Princess of Liechtenstein's father appearantly was. Argh, these "immediate imperial personalists" without mediatized fiefs really confuse and mess these things up, don't they?

Those 2 lines are both considered mediatized,but,the members of the Fürstliche line of this family bear the title Reichsgraf/Reichsgräfin Kinsky von Wchinitz undTettau. The members of the other line bear the title Graf/Gräfin Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau. The head of the Fürstliche line bears the title Reichsfürst Kinsky von Wchinitz und Tettau.

This means that for example Bertha von Suttner's father Franz Josef was just Count Kinsky despite being the famous Austrian Field Marshal which made her just Countess Kinsky by birth...

This also means that Maria Aglaë's father was Reichsgraf because he belongs to Fürstliche linie which made her Reichsgräfin by birth although the members of this line are often also mentioned just as Count/Countess Kinsky...and she is just a great-granddaughter of 7th Kinsky Fürst-Ferdinand Bonaventura...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:32:02 PM by Marc »