Author Topic: "Mediatized" - what is it?  (Read 46932 times)

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2010, 12:21:42 AM »
Interesting. I'd love more information about exactly how the mere Counts Kinsky of the elder line could be considered mediatized, if you know it. Seems very strange to me.


Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2010, 06:18:13 AM »
In the text about Mediatized Princes of the Austrian Empire it is said about Kinsky family:"junior members were counts; also comital"...the difference between other families where the Head was just Fürst and had only one line it is said just:"junior members were counts" without this "also comital" which means the family didn't have the other comital line to point into...You can see also this regarding the Schönburg family where it is said:"family had multiple branches; also comital" which was used for "Schönburg(-subline)" as they call it,whose most famous member is Countess Maria Gloria von Schönburg-Glauchau,now Fürstin von Thurn und Taxis...

I assume they used the same example as for the Auersperg family where main branch were Princes and junior branch were just Counts von Auersperg,but both lines were considered mediatized,but maybe not "equal" under the Laws of other Houses who require something more than just its membership...the most famous of them was poet and politician Anastasius Grün whose real identity was Count Anton Alexander von Auersperg...

The Case of Bertha Kinsky(who was a member of comital line) can be seen similar to that of Auguste von Harrach who was considered a member of mediatized family,BUT in the eyes of Prussian Law she was just a member of collateral branch of Countly mediatized family who didn't earn the qualifications that the main Harrach branch had and because of that the marriage had to be considered morganatic in Prussia...which doesn't mean that she would be considered as such in the Laws of other reigning Houses,like for example Reuss where "...consent cannot be refused for marriage to members of the confederation or families equal by virtue of art. 14." which requires just memebership of the equal considered House which Auguste von Harrach undisputedly had,just like Bertha Kinsky whose family belonged to the Section II of the Gotha Almanach...
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 06:41:34 AM by Marc »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2010, 07:09:04 AM »
Oh my God, you should have been a k.u.k Justizrat specializing in fürstliches Privatrecht!

In the text about Mediatized Princes of the Austrian Empire it is said....
Which "holy scripture" is this, if I may ask?

As always you make much sense. Very obvious parallell to the Harrach case, yes. But how strange that you can officially be a member of a mediatized house and neither actually mediatized nor ebenbürtig. Makes you not much better than members of the Reichsritterschaft.

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2010, 11:56:45 AM »
In "Historisches Lexikon der deutschen Länder" they say that the family gained the title of Reischgraf in the Holy Roman Empire in 1676...the Count in particular was Count Norbert Oktavian who is an ancestor of the elder as well as the younger Kinsky Princely line(bocoming Princes in 1747)...so,all the descendants of the the Raischgraf are included which means that all present members of the House of Kinsky are descendants of this Reischgraf no matter they were called Fürst,Raischgraf or just Graf...and as such later considered mediatized!

The difference in titles was made just to distinct members of Princely line from the ones of Countly...if this was not made like that sons of Fürst would also have the title of Count just like the sons of his elder brother who was also only a Count himself...so,the descendants of the Fürstlich line had titles Reischgraf/Reischgräfin while descendants of his elder brother had titles of Graf/Gräfin...but ALL of them were descendants of the first Reischgraf who gained this title way back in 1676!

Similar case with Countess Auguste von Harrach who was considered a mediatized Countess only on account that her family was mediatized while in fact she belonged to the collateral branch of just Grafen von Harrach and not Reischgrafen who were made reichsständisch in 1752...privilege only main Harrach line had!So,the difference between her and Countess Bertha Kinsky for example was that Auguste was a member of mediatized House whose direct ancestor was never made reischgraf(just Graf) while Bertha was a descendant of the first Reischgraf Kinsky whose younger and not elder son became Reischfürst!Bertha is of course descendant of his elder son...

P.S.There was also one Reischgraf before...this was Wilhelm Kinsky who gained this titles even before in 1628,but did not include him here because his descendants died out in male line in 1709...and because he was mentioned as such in other sources!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 12:27:10 PM by Marc »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2010, 01:05:47 PM »
But how strange that you can officially be a member of a mediatized house and neither actually mediatized nor ebenbürtig. Makes you not much better than members of the Reichsritterschaft.

There is also the opposite example where Princes of the Holy Roman Empire were treated much less than some mediatized Countly Houses such as Schlitz genannt von Görtz,Aspermont-Lynden,Platen-Hallermund,Plettenberg-Wittem,Giech,Ostein,Wallmoden-Gimborn...maybe due to not so "equal" inbreeding and not being so "close" to Vienna...

The Gonzaga case struck my mind...They were made Princes of the Holy Roman Empire in 1593 based on the fact that they were collateral branch of the main line that ruled in Dukedom of Mantua...they were not powerful enough to succeed in Mantua after the main line died out...They are a bit forgotten today and although the family is ancient they didn't make any significant marriages to the other "equal" Houses...and for example their members would be officially "equal" based on their titles in 1593,but they would not have significant "equal quarterings" to be considered equal in reality...So,I feel they they were considered "equal" just for the fact that they were scions of an ancient family without being really mediatized or ebenbürtig!

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2010, 03:53:33 PM »
Did ever a member of an Illustrious (Erlaucht) mediatized comital house marry into a reigning royal, ducal or princely family?

Here is also an example of where officially "the blood" stands stronger than just membership of the mediatized House:

Prince Ludwig von Hannover married Countess Isabella von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli...in terms of status Isabella belonged to a collateral branch of an old family that held the reichgrafenstand(Count Raimund IV von Thurn-Hofer und Valsassina was created Reischsgraf way back in 1572)...anyway,she was the daughter of Count Ariprand von Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli and Princess Maria von Auersperg so in terms of her "equal" ancestry she had all 8 nearest ancestors noble...those 8 families could at some point be considered some sort of equal where the "lowest" was Countess von Vrints zu Falkenstein while the others being Lobkowicz,Neipperg,Schönburg-Hartenstein,Auersperg,Kinsky(officially mediatized and thus equal) while others include Festetics von Tolna(Princely family) and Thurn und Valsassina-Como-Vercelli(collateral branch of the family who held the rank of Reischgraf in 1572)...

So,officially not considered from an equal family but from an old family with "equal quarterings" Countess Isabella was,as such,much more equal by blood than for example Countess Mathilde von Limburg-Stirum who had just 1/8 equal ancestors and was allowed to be officially equal due to her membership of the mediatized House...
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 04:25:35 PM by Marc »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2010, 11:08:02 AM »
Prince Albrecht of Schleswig-Holstein was married Countess Ortrud zu Isenburg-Buedingen in Meerholz in 1906. 
I remember reading in one of John C. G. Roehl's books that Kaiser Wilhelm tried to encourage his infamous brother-in-law Ernst Guenther to marry a Countess v. Schlitz gen. v. Goertz as well...

Was this Countess one of the daughter's of Kaisers childhood friend Count Emil Schlitz gen. von Görtz?Maybe that's why Kaiser was in favor of this marriage...

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2010, 01:36:55 AM »
Was this Countess one of the daughter's of Kaisers childhood friend Count Emil Schlitz gen. von Görtz?Maybe that's why Kaiser was in favor of this marriage...
That seems likely.

BTW there were also non-immediate, Prussian Counts Schlitz genannt von Görtz, as Johann Eustach Graf von Schlitz genannt von Görtz, educator of Goethe's famous patron Duke Karl August of Saxe-Weimar and Prussian ambassador to the Court of Catherine the Great adopted a certain Baron Hans von Labes, who was made a Count Schlitz von Görtz by the King of Prussia, in order to enable said Hans Freiherr von Labes genannt Graf von Schlitz genannt von Görtz (!) to marry his daughter equally!

Anyway that comital line died out with their daughter, whose husband, a Von Bassewitz, was made Count von Bassewitz-Schlitz. I only mention this because this adopted Count and his wife, who thus formally was his sister (!), built a gorgeous Neo-Classical castle, Burg Schlitz, on his family estate in Vorpommern or Hither Pomerania. I visited it very briefly, but was so delighted I long to return. The castle (now a luxury hotel) got quite a lot of coverage when the spouses of the G8 leaders met there during the 2007 summit in Heiligendamm. Just Google it and you'll see. I guess the attraction is that it's such a well-maintained castle in a once very manorial area where Communism has destroyed a lot of the old manors and castles.

But it's hard to beat the charm of the Hessian town of Schlitz, location of the original Burg Schlitz, seat of the mediatized Counts Schlitz von Görtz:

« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 01:57:44 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2010, 08:02:16 AM »
How interesting to see that some of them were in fact created non-immediate Counts Schlitz gen. von Görtz...I read something about some adoption,but that was not clear to me when it concerned the Schlitz manor in Mecklenburg region...so now I assume that this manor as they call it belonged to the newly created Schlitz gen. von Görtz family who were in fact von Labes family...

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2010, 02:52:05 PM »
Was this Countess one of the daughter's of Kaisers childhood friend Count Emil Schlitz gen. von Görtz?Maybe that's why Kaiser was in favor of this marriage...
That seems likely.

Reichsgraf Emil Schlitz gen. von Görtz:

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 02:57:25 PM by Marc »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2010, 12:33:14 AM »
I’m afraid I am not too familiar with the meaning of the term “Mediatized Noble Families”, but I assume it implies “non-ruling” yet noble families.

In legal ways the status of being mediatized can be compared to the vestiges of sovereignty which Native American Nations enjoy on their reservations in the US today. A status that among other things gives them the right to operate casinos. And because the casinos have made some tribes rich, they have also developed Ebenbürtigkeit-like regulations about who can be considered genuine members of their tribe! See this thread.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 12:38:59 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2011, 10:28:33 PM »
Interesting entry in a royal blog about the marriage of Archduchess Hedwig of Austria-Tuscany(descendant of Emperor Franz Josef) and mediatized Count Bernhard zu Stolberg-Stolberg(full member of Stolberg-Stolberg House,but a product of non-equal marriage as he had only 1/2 of "equal blood"):

http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2009/08/hedwig-of-austrias-marriage-mesalliance.html
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 10:32:01 PM by Marc »

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2011, 07:47:01 AM »
The same goes for Countess Mathilde von Limburg-Stirum...

It is interesting that Countess Mathilde von Limburg-Stirum is ancestor of the current first lady of Great Britain,Samantha Gwendoline Cameron née Sheffield(descendant of King Charles II of England and Mary Boleyn also) while her husband David is a descendant of King William IV of Great Britain...

Offline C Ross of Biggar

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2014, 10:19:00 AM »
In 1806, Napoleon dissolved the Holy Roman Empire and reorganised all the, sometimes tiny, sovereign states (for example,
the state of the Schlitzerland comprised a town and 16 villages). His various allies were rewarded by being given
increased sovereignty, territory and revenues (under Napoleon of course). Ludwig of Hesse-Darmstadt was given Schlitz; he had
supplied soldiers to Napoleon but only when a Napoleonic army appeared at his front door (up to then he had prevaricated).
Subsequently, he found himself, so to speak, on the winning side.  It was considerably later, I seem to remember, quite some time
after the defeat of Napoleon  (ca. 1825) that an Agreement was reached whereby honorifics (Serene Highness, Illustrious Highness etc.,)
were allowed to the former ruling sovereigns. Collateral lines, as mentioned above, that had never ruled, were  -logically- not
affected by this.
Count Emil von Schlitz was my gt-grandfather so I would be interested to know which of his 4 daughters, Kaiser Wilhelm had in mind
as a marriage Partner for his brother-in-law. Can anyone help me here?

Offline Marc

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Re: "Mediatized" - what is it?
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2014, 07:13:27 PM »

Count Emil von Schlitz was my gt-grandfather so I would be interested to know which of his 4 daughters, Kaiser Wilhelm had in mind
as a marriage Partner for his brother-in-law. Can anyone help me here?

While googling I found this:

"The Kaiser had “suggested another girl (to him) – namely the daughter of our beloved lion, hippopotamus and dervish howl mimic” Graf Emil von Schlitz genannt von Görtz.  When it turned out that the eldest Görtz daughter was already spoken for, Countess Anna Görtz declared that she would invite the Duke to Schlitz soon, “to give him the opportunity of meeting the second daughter.”