Author Topic: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????  (Read 78949 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #225 on: September 04, 2007, 10:45:13 AM »
What 'remains' ? How on earth is this possible when they were re-buried in 1998 ?

dolgoruky18,

had no 1991 samples been retained then it would have been rather difficult to conduct DNA analyses to help identify if there will be any correlation between the two set of samples.

Tissue samples from the first excavation (1991) were preserved according to standard laboratory practice. They will serve as controls for the second 2007 excavation laboratory samples.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Senior Moscow Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev, who is directing the course of this second investigation received the samples and maintaining the all important "chain-of-custody" was met at the Ekaterinburg airport last night (Monday, Ekaterinburg local time) by the Head of the Ekaterinburg Forensic Bureau, Nikolai Nevolin who accepted custody of the samples. All these samples are now secured.

Samples received yesterday (local time) in Ekaterinburg belonged to Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and three of their daughters + those of the staff who died with them. The handover has been filmed.

Margarita


Didn't mean to overshadow this important news with my triva so I have  repeat it.

Is there any news or even rumors about outsiders,  (British,  American, German...) taking part in any of these tests?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 10:47:49 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Alexander_IV

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #226 on: September 04, 2007, 01:55:01 PM »
BEAR,

Please refrain from posting random unidentified skeletal images which only serve to obfuscate matters. Thanks.

Margarita


I'm sorry, you typed "BEAR" when you should've typed "PRAVDA" . . .

 ;D

OK some of you have had your say, but had any of you, including BEAR cared to read the disclaimer below the image provided by Pravda you would have all noticed that it stated:

"bones(www.heritagecouncil.ie)"

Clearly the newspaper correctly acknowledged that the image came from the files of the Irish Heritage Council.

My earlier polite request directed to Bear was regretably misinterpreted by a some posters here. My request to Bear is justified.

Thank you,

Margarita


Yes, I did see the caption. Given the accompanying article, it is not daft to assume that "bones (http://www.heritagecouncil.ie)" meant that the bones from the grave, and that someone associated with the Irish Heritage Council was there for the excavation, and took the photograph.  .... There is no misinterpretation....

May I advise that the newspaper that goes under the name "Pravda" (Truth) is well known for its distortions of the news and its images often bare little relationship to the story printed. It is not so daft to exercise caution when refering to anything that "Pravda" publishes.

The soviets used to jest that there was never any truth in Pravda.

 [/color]

I think that was exactly what Alice meant by the 'replace BEAR with PRAVDA' thing though.
At least that's the reason I put a 'grin' after it :p
I don't trust anything that's coming from the Pravda. It seems to have changed from a propaganda paper to a tabloid paper with more (sometimes somewhat)amusing articles than actual news.

Offline Tania+

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #227 on: September 04, 2007, 02:11:48 PM »
...guess that's where the saying came from...'is it a hit or a myth' ?
TatianaA


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #228 on: September 04, 2007, 02:29:10 PM »
What 'remains' ? How on earth is this possible when they were re-buried in 1998 ?

dolgoruky18,

had no 1991 samples been retained then it would have been rather difficult to conduct DNA analyses to help identify if there will be any correlation between the two set of samples.

Tissue samples from the first excavation (1991) were preserved according to standard laboratory practice. They will serve as controls for the second 2007 excavation laboratory samples.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Senior Moscow Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev, who is directing the course of this second investigation received the samples and maintaining the all important "chain-of-custody" was met at the Ekaterinburg airport last night (Monday, Ekaterinburg local time) by the Head of the Ekaterinburg Forensic Bureau, Nikolai Nevolin who accepted custody of the samples. All these samples are now secured.

Samples received yesterday (local time) in Ekaterinburg belonged to Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and three of their daughters + those of the staff who died with them. The handover has been filmed.

Margarita


Didn't mean to overshadow this important news with my triva so I have  repeat it.

Is there any news or even rumors about outsiders,  (British,  American, German...) taking part in any of these tests?

AGRBear

There have been no rumors and no news about any non Russians being involved with the testing. My guess - and this is speculation - is that the Russians prefer to handle this matter themselves.

Offline Annie

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #229 on: September 04, 2007, 03:12:42 PM »
Some AA supporters are saying they'll never accept the results unless they are done outside of Russia. But Dr. Gill's and  all those other tests were done outside of Russia and they still don't believe them! Still I'd like to see at least someone else do a test to show it wasn't just the Russians, though even a hundred tests will never satisfy AA supporters. I've known this all along, if the bodies were found there would just be more ridiculous conspiracies and here we go again.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #230 on: September 04, 2007, 11:03:49 PM »
Some AA supporters are saying they'll never accept the results unless they are done outside of Russia. But Dr. Gill's and  all those other tests were done outside of Russia and they still don't believe them! Still I'd like to see at least someone else do a test to show it wasn't just the Russians, though even a hundred tests will never satisfy AA supporters. I've known this all along, if the bodies were found there would just be more ridiculous conspiracies and here we go again.

I am surprised that there are still "AA supporters", but still everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. This should not have any effect on the Russians' decisions about how to test the remains. It is their matter. I take your point about allowing others to do testing, but it is still their right to handle this as they see fit.

Offline Belochka

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #231 on: September 04, 2007, 11:52:57 PM »
... My guess - and this is speculation - is that the Russians prefer to handle this matter themselves.

Is there any news or even rumors about outsiders,  (British,  American, German...) taking part in any of these tests?

AGRBear

Senior Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev who is heading this second Ekaterinburg Investigation declared last night that the Russian laboratories have the expertise and the knowledge to perform their investigations.

May I suggest strongly that rather than "guess", "speculate" or dwell on the possibility of the emergence of any "gossip" what may happen or what should happen, it is more than reasonable and appropriate to allow the broad panel of Russian team of professional investigators to decide what course the investigations should take and allow them to reach their conclusions.

Margarita


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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #232 on: September 05, 2007, 09:23:57 AM »
The problem I have with this persistent demand that "non Russian" scientists must do the testing implies one of only two possible things, both of which I find offensive.

Either these people believe
 1. that the Russian scientists are simply incapable of performing the DNA testing in an adequate manner and the "international" scientific community is superior in their ability, expertise and training OR
2.that the Russian scientific community is dis-honest and unreliable to deliver the genuine results because they are part of a larger Russian government conspiracy to hoax these findings for a pre-determined outcome.

So, just WHERE is any evidence produced to support either of these notions? These people just defame and libel the Russian scientific community willy-nilly without anything to back up their statements.  I'm still waiting for ANYBODY to produce anything to support just WHY this hue and cry for non-Russian testing being done to "keep the Russians honest..."


Offline Lemur

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #233 on: September 05, 2007, 09:32:55 AM »
Even if international scientists did do the testing, would it make a difference to those determined not to believe these bones are those of the Imperial children? It certainly hasn't stopped them from questioning the results of the tests done in the Anna Anderson case, has it? So why would this be any different? I doubt it would. There are going to be some people who will always make excuses and conspiracy theories to deny the evidence they don't want to accept.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #234 on: September 05, 2007, 09:54:57 AM »
What difference does it make who performs the tests as long as the results are published and peer reviewed? This is how it's done in the scientific community, and this is how we can tell the difference between legitimate data and spurious garbage, such as been popping up ocaasionally in the case of the Romanov remains in the last decade or so. It has worked beautifully. 

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #235 on: September 05, 2007, 10:04:00 AM »
Thats exactly my point. Thanks for stating it more clearly than I did Helen.


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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #236 on: September 05, 2007, 12:57:52 PM »
The burned bones may be too fragmentary for DNA testing. They may have better luck with the teeth. DNA procedures have improved enormously since the 1990s.  Things may move fairly quickly. As posters will be only too well aware, July 2008 will be the 90th anniversary of the disappearance of the Imperial Family.

Olishka~ Pincess

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #237 on: September 05, 2007, 04:27:56 PM »
Yes I heard that about the AA suporters that is what they believe so it should be respected, but Lisa is still right I agree with her they are intitled to their opinion like everyone else is their opinion diserves to be respected. Anyway the bones are realy too small. The bone fragments are quite small hopefully something postive will be proven and we will see more results hopefully. Yes July 2008 with be the 90th year since the murder hopefully we will have the information on by the special year. I am quite sure the posters have something planned for that time when it comes. I know I will.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #238 on: September 06, 2007, 02:20:25 PM »
What difference does it make who performs the tests as long as the results are published and peer reviewed? This is how it's done in the scientific community, and this is how we can tell the difference between legitimate data and spurious garbage, such as been popping up ocaasionally in the case of the Romanov remains in the last decade or so. It has worked beautifully. 

However, and in answser to question #1 of forumadmin, there is, perhaps somewhat unfairly, concern about the quality of russian science. All one has to do is look at the Chernoble disaster to know that much of the communist era science was grossly inadequate. To the extent anyone would feel that such inadequacies would still linger (which many do), questioning Russian capabilites and precision of high level DNA work is reasonble. Further, simply publishing findings and protocol does NOT address the techniques or adequacies of the procedures.
HerrKaiser

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED?????
« Reply #239 on: September 06, 2007, 04:46:44 PM »
... My guess - and this is speculation - is that the Russians prefer to handle this matter themselves.

Is there any news or even rumors about outsiders,  (British,  American, German...) taking part in any of these tests?

AGRBear

Senior Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev who is heading this second Ekaterinburg Investigation declared last night that the Russian laboratories have the expertise and the knowledge to perform their investigations.

May I suggest strongly that rather than "guess", "speculate" or dwell on the possibility of the emergence of any "gossip" what may happen or what should happen, it is more than reasonable and appropriate to allow the broad panel of Russian team of professional investigators to decide what course the investigations should take and allow them to reach their conclusions.

Margarita


Wow. This is a discussion forum - discussions do involve guessing, speculating, and yes, even gossip. I think it's actually a fairly good guess, Margarita, that since no international participation has been announced, that the Russians are going to do their own testing. However, since I try to be responsible about what I post, I do try to label mine appropriately, as in , "this is just a guess". It's unfortunate that you don't approve of this, but it will not stop discussion. You are quite welcome to stick with the press releases only.