Author Topic: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins  (Read 39616 times)

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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2010, 11:15:41 PM »
This is interesting, Alixz (if we are talking about the same thing).

Quote
Once Nicholas had taken up the chase, he may well have also felt more comfortable and less shy about pursuing Mathilde as he would have known that his parents did not disapprove.  Having backing in an endeavor provides one with a lot of confidence.




It is odd that in one of Ksenia's letters to Gyorgy (I think) she mentions how fortunate it is that Alexander III and Marie F have not found out about Malechka.  How could they not have known?  Security police must have monitored Nicholas' comings and goings, and any court has eyes everywhere so that no aspect of your life is truly private.  I really think that his parents must have known or suspected the extent of the relationship.




Of course the Imperial Family knew about Mathilda, everything was an open secret. GD Sergei A. even once pressed Nicholas with questions about his relationship with Mathilda - GD wanted to know if that was more than romantic/platonic. Nicholas swore nothing was between them except friendship.

Xenia was sometimes quite naive.

Offline Sergei Witte

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2010, 06:35:59 AM »
In the era we are talking about it was normal way of things that royals would marry out of convenience and not out of love. the marriage of Alexander III and Dagmar was at first also a marriage of convenience. The laison of Dagmar with Nixa was too, but it became a real love affair. After his death, the marriage with Alexander III was at first a marriage of convenience and it grew into mutual love and understanding.

It means something that Nicholas broke with that tradition.

He wanted to marry Alix one way or another, or else not marry at all. Many people see this as romantic etc. but it was also very stubborn and not wise in dynastic way of things. He should have understood that for him, marring was not for fun but simply his duty as future Tsar. Indeed it was very stubborn from him to refuse his parents wishes.

This maybe a sign that the times were changing, breaking with the old disciplined way of upbringing.

Strange that so many people who see his choice for Alix as him, following his heart and this being a strong character of him, while they condemn him for, with he same strenght of heart, later stubbornly refusing all kind of liberal reforms when the people of Russia needed this, and passionately holding on to autocracy.

So the medal has two sides, as usual.

BTW Merry christmas everybody!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 06:52:36 AM by Sergei Witte »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2010, 06:58:15 AM »
Sergei

Very true. Quite apart from any other considerations, there was a strong possibility that Alexandra would prove to be a haemophilia carrier. Although Victoria Milford Haven had a healthy son born in 1892, Irene had already produced a haemophiliac.

Ann

Alixz

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2010, 12:54:50 PM »

He wanted to marry Alix one way or another, or else not marry at all. Many people see this as romantic etc. but it was also very stubborn and not wise in dynastic way of things. He should have understood that for him, marring was not for fun but simply his duty as future Tsar. Indeed it was very stubborn from him to refuse his parents wishes.


Sergei that is what I said, too.  He should have understood that his duty to the dynasty and to the Imperial Family came before his personal wishes.  If Alexander III had not become so ill in early 1894 with the knowledge that Nicholas needed to find a wife and fast, then I believe he and Dagmar would have held out and not given in to Nicholas.  They had held out for so long.

Marriages were usually not for love but for dynastic considerations.  It is wonderful to look back now and see Nicholas's stubborn insistence as a romantic thing, but Alexander III and Dagmar were right.  It was the wrong thing.  Not only for Nicholas, but for the Imperial Family and for the future of the dynasty.

Nicholas stripped his uncles and his brother of their titles and holdings for marrying for love.  He should have held the same standards to himself.  Duty first and love second - no matter how much it hurt.  And I know that Alix was not inferior in status.  That is not what I mean.  What I mean is that Nicholas was a hypocrite.  It was alright for him to force an issue against the Emperor's (his father) wishes, but not alright for his uncles and brother to do that same to him.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 12:56:55 PM by Alixz »

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2010, 10:30:51 PM »
Well this discussion is interesting and I apologize if I wasn't clear.  And very interesting about Sergei A.  Where can I read about that?

I, too don't believe that he was 'strong' in marrying for love.  "Strong" would have denied his own needs and plowed forward.  But I do think that it takes a level of self-awareness to know that he was going to have a hard time being Tsar and needed the kind of Empress that would support him morally and be available to him on a spiritual or emotional level to make his life less difficult.  I always see it this way: being Tsar was getting harder and harder across the years, particularly as the cities filled with more factory workers all needing improved living conditions, and living close enough to communicate their needs to each other.  Nicholas was a smart guy, and even a less intelligent heir could easily see how dangerous and complex the life of a monarch had become: his grandfather, Sissy, Otsu, etc.  We know that he dreaded wearing the crown.  If the rest of your life, once your father died, were to be a rough road, wouldn't it be fairly rational to conclude that you were going to have to build support into your private life in order to function?  So Alix is not necessarily a selfish choice, but practical.  He certainly saw how his father aged rapidly once he was Tsar (and image how scary that would be to a boy-young man).

I also think that comparing his choice of Alix to Misha's decision, or Pavel, or Kyril, isn't just.  Alix wasn't spectacularly royal, tho' we can't deny her good connections!  Misha and Kyril wanted to marry against the laws of the Church, and that is complicated.  And both of them acted without the Tsar's permission, which Nicholas did not do.  But I do agree with all of you that Nicholas should have thought longer and harder about Irene's son. Funny, I was just reading letters of Queen Victoria to Victoria Battenberg where the Queen expresses concern about Ernie marrying into a potential hemophilia risk (Maud!).  She doesn't name the disease, but it is clear what she is saying.  Of course, her science is all wrong, but no one understood the genetic particulars yet.  My point is that England's royals were thinking about marrying women who would bring healthy lineage and who were healthy enough to begin a long string of childbearing.  Alix was neither of these things, tho, of course it is way easier to see that in 2011 than in 1894.

My fascination with Nicholas is watching how people view him now.  We look backwards through the Revolution, 1905, Spala, Khodynka, and things look different from that perspective than they do looking from 1894 forward.  It's off topic, nothing to do with Mathilde, so I'll just summarize: it is so much about how we ourselves look at suffering.

Mathilde talks about how much her discussions with Nicholas meant to her (as memories, I suppose).  So perhaps he had some of that deep attachment with her, too.
Naslednik


Offline Svetabel

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2010, 02:16:46 AM »

 And very interesting about Sergei A.  Where can I read about that?





Only in Sergei's diary. Extracts from it are publsihed in a book with correspondence between Nicholas II and GDss Elizaveta Fedorovna.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2010, 08:00:34 AM »

 And very interesting about Sergei A.  Where can I read about that?





Only in Sergei's diary. Extracts from it are publsihed in a book with correspondence between Nicholas II and GDss Elizaveta Fedorovna.

Btw, the talk between Sergei A. and Nicholas took place on 10 January 1893. After that Nicholas met Alix at the wedding of Kaiser Wilhelm II's sister Margarethe (13 January).

Offline Naslednik

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2011, 10:27:15 PM »
Yes, but in Berlin Alix had ear infections I think, so Nicholas never spoke to her, which was undoubtedly disappointing.  And according to Mathilde's diary, it was before the Berlin trip and just after that she was pressing Nicholas to intensify their love affair.  So if Nicholas told Sergei A that they had a platonic friendship, he may have been telling the truth, at least for the time being (10 Jan 1893).  And it may have been hard for him to resist Mathilde; she even was cranking up her career at that point, I think that the 32 fouettes were on their way. She may have been an altogether fascinating woman.

Offline historylover

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 12:47:23 AM »
Maybe, but i cant help seen her as an ambicious woman who got involved with powerful men to "Drain" them to get benefits

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but there is no evidence of this. Kschessinskya was not a hooker. She was a talented world calibur talent ballerina and there were many men attracted to her -so she really didn't need to get involved with the grand dukes and "drain them to get benefits". She had her pick of gentlemen, chose those in whom she was interested, and actually supported her family on her own - including Grand Duke Andre - after the revolution - for over 40 years.

Doesn't exactly fit your misogynistic conjucture, does it?

I agree with your comment, Lisa, but I think the words 'misogynistic conjecture' were a bit harsh.

Offline historylover

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 12:50:36 AM »
I think that Mathilde probably did love Nicholas.  She certainly seemed to yearn for him after the affair was over
and if one look can bring old memories flooding back...

Offline historylover

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 12:56:21 AM »
I don't think that dancers in the Imperial Ballet were well paid at first, which is why some sought "protectors". They were expected to work off the considerable cost of their training for about 10 years. After that, they could join other ballets or negotiate newer and more lucrative contracts. I think that MK did all of the above.

Hello Lisa,

You explained your use of the term 'misogynistic' so I must apologise for writing about it.

Offline Clemence

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2011, 01:26:49 PM »
what I'd love to know is if nicholas loved matilde. I can see how she fell for him, after all all kind of women in every society fell for the heir (remember wallis simpson, just to mention one). somehow I feel he never treally loved her - maybe it's that he always loved alix and I don't see how anyone can trully love 2 people in the same time ... who knows?
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Alixz

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2011, 01:54:42 PM »
Actually, Nicholas himself in his diaries has mentioned that he wondered how he could be in love with two women at the same time.  I will look for the quote and add it if I can find it.

Offline Nathalie

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2011, 08:05:24 AM »
Quote
Actually, Nicholas himself in his diaries has mentioned that he wondered how he could be in love with two women at the same time.

Young and/or inexperienced people tend to mix love with passion - I beleive this is what happened to N. too...
Dites-moi, Vladimir Lvovich, si j'avais une amie ou une sœur plus jeune, et si vous appreniez qu’elle…enfin, supposons qu’elle vous aime…que feriez vous á cette nouvelle?

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Re: Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2011, 09:33:48 AM »
Here is the quote from Imperial Dancer by Corynne Hall.

From chapter II entitled "Madly in Love with Little K" page 27:

Although Nicholas was infatuated with Mathilde, he never stopped dreaming about Alix of Hesse.  'I never thought that two... loves could co-exist at one time within one heart,' he wrote in his diary on 1 April  [1892].

'I have already loved Alix... for three years and constantly hope to marry her one day!  The following year I fell very much in love with Olga D. [Dolgoruky]... And since the camp of 1890 until now I have been madly (platonically) in love with little K...At the same time I never stop thinking of Alix!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 09:35:32 AM by Alixz »