Author Topic: What Difference Does It Make [if the last remains have been found]?  (Read 16794 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2007, 02:02:12 PM »
On this forum we may get a somewhat distorted view of how monumental this news is. Out in the real world of course it's not very monumental. It's an interesting piece of news, historically speaking, perhaps a good human interest story, but most people will just say "Oh how interesting" and forget about it in five minutes. As someone else said, this will change very little really. Most serious historians have already accepted the fact that the entire family died that July night in 1918, and that just because the remains of two children were still missing, it didn't mean they survived. Whether these remains prove to be authentic or not, it's not going to change much for most people. And I include various suppporters of various pretenders in this statement. Most of the latter will probably not accept this as the final answer anyway. So I have a feeling that things will just be status quo, more or less... 

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2007, 02:55:29 PM »
Just one important point of clarification - the use of the word "pretenders" is needlessly confusing here because we are dealing with royalty. And, I see it being used throughout the Forum to designate someone pretending to be someone they were not, i.e., a Romanov.

In royal terms, a "pretender" is not a faux royal, a pretender is someone who aspires to a throne. Thus, Prince James Edward (son of King James II, who was deposed) was a pretender to the throne of Great Britain because others held the actual office but he had the Jacobite claim to the throne. However, he was not "pretending" to be a King in the sense of trying to deceive someone.

Thus, I have suggested the rather neutral term "claimant" to be used to refer to those who "claimed" to be someone else, such as Anna Anderson.

Offline RichC

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2007, 04:38:21 PM »
On this forum we may get a somewhat distorted view of how monumental this news is. Out in the real world of course it's not very monumental. It's an interesting piece of news, historically speaking, perhaps a good human interest story, but most people will just say "Oh how interesting" and forget about it in five minutes. As someone else said, this will change very little really. Most serious historians have already accepted the fact that the entire family died that July night in 1918, and that just because the remains of two children were still missing, it didn't mean they survived. Whether these remains prove to be authentic or not, it's not going to change much for most people. And I include various suppporters of various pretenders in this statement. Most of the latter will probably not accept this as the final answer anyway. So I have a feeling that things will just be status quo, more or less... 

I think Dr. Maples said it best in his book when he said that the story of the escape was a fairytale.  I think he went on to say that executioners are not known for taking pity on their victims. 

BTW, I love the use of the term "dustbin of history" in reference to the claimants and their supporters!  I guess Trotsky was good for something!

Offline Belochka

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2007, 08:38:09 PM »
... The study of Russian history, not to mention world  history, will treat this as a footnote even shorter than those assigned to discuss the fates of the English princes and Louis XVII.

From your position it may be viewed as but a brief "footnote" but for others it may be far more expansive than that and include an entire chapter in Russian history written by Russian academicians. It all very much depends on whose book you select don't you think?

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2007, 10:03:55 PM »
From your position it may be viewed as but a brief "footnote" but for others it may be far more expansive than that and include an entire chapter in Russian history written by Russian academicians. It all very much depends on whose book you select don't you think?

True.  I'm sure there will be some books written that tell the story of the aftermath of the massacre, including the history of claimants and the finding of the bodies.  But those tales will lie more in the realm of psychology and human interest.

I was speaking more figuratively.  In the larger canvas of Russian history -- by that I mean the entire body   of its histiography -- the events after July 17, 1918 that will dominate the story will be the the rise and fall of the soviet state and the subsequent struggles of Russians to determine the next stages of their development.  To the extent the Romanovs had any impact on Russian history after 1917, it lay in the legacy they bequeathed to Russia while they ruled it, not in when, where, and how their bodies were disposed of.  The story of Romanovs as a force in history runs from 1547 (when Anastasia Zakharyina married Ivan IV) to 1917 . . . not from 1547 to 2007.

There may be one area that could create some surprise.  That is the the approach taken to this affair by the Orthodox Church.  If they succeed in creating a hagiography around the royal family that actually begins to alter the tide of modern Russian history by resurrecting the formula of Autocracy/Orthodoxy/Nationaliity as the best fate to which Russians can aspire, then the finding of these bodies could become a factor in the history of Russia that is yet to be written.  But even in such a scenario, the finding of the bodies would be a matter of convenience to be exploited in futhering a pre-existing agenda, not a causative event in itself.

Offline Silja

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2007, 04:59:26 PM »
Whatever royal pretenders, real or false ones, have materiaized throughout history, they have been irrelevant with regard to Russian politics.

Not always.  Pugachev pretended to be Catherine's murdered husband, Peter III, and much of southern Russia rallied to his cause.  After initially failing to take him seriously, Catherine eventually became so unsettled by the inroads he made that she started backing away from what was left by then of her liberalization program. 

Ah, but this was when Russia was still a monarchy. We were speaking of Republics.

Offline dmitri

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2007, 05:47:22 PM »
Yes pretenders were a threat to power under the monarchy. Now they are just a curiosity for a minority. It is highly doubtful that Russia will ever be a monarchy again.

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2007, 06:27:06 PM »
What ever will we have to talk about?  And Annie, your poor horse is already dead, how can he complain about what we have been doing?  Unless he has been replaced with a "claimant" to the position of "dead horse" and has a vested interest in seeing this through to its conclusion. :-)

Others have vanished and there were no "claimants".  Judge Crater.  Jimmy Hoffa. (now there was someone with historical influence)

And of course the two princes.  If I remember correctly there would have been no Richard III at that time if the princes were not "lost". And I would be just as excited if the British were to announce that the remains of the princes had been found.

And about "pretenders":

I remember Massie referring to Helene of Bourbon as the daughter of the "pretender" to the throne of France.  The same Helene whom Eddy (Duke of Clarence and Avondale)  wanted to marry and to whom Alexander III would have liked to marry Nicholas.

So a "pretender" can be (or could have been) a political issue. 

I for one would like to read a book about the psychology of "claimants" and the psychology of those who believe in them.  Can that be long in coming?

And I don't trust Putin on a world level.  He scares me.  I don't think he is what he is trying to project himself as and under him, the Russians (or a version of the Soviet Union) might rise again. There has already been talk of "sliding back into a cold war situation".  Been there, done that - don't want to do it again.


Offline Raegan

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2007, 01:34:11 PM »
The discovery of the remains of Alexei and his sister will not make a huge difference in the world. This is not an earth-shattering event. It is exciting to people who have been studying Russian History for years. It is great timing for those of us who have books coming out on the Romanovs in the very near future. It will finally close the case for survivors and show that once and for all that no one escaped that night. Also, as Annie stated, it could possibly boost Russia's tourism industry. That's about it though. I doubt the Russian people will be filing into the streets and calling for a return of the Romanov Dynasty.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 01:42:59 PM by Raegan »

Offline Mari

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2007, 02:06:58 AM »


Quote
The notion that "Professors of World History" (to draw from one post) are going to be wrapping themselves around this discovery is something of a stretch.

You don't know my primary World History Professor, this was just up his Alley and I suspect there are many others that interest Students by bringing up the Anastasia Story and the Death of a Czar in WWI history. I've used it myself in a couple of lectures.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 02:17:55 AM by Mari »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2007, 07:23:46 AM »
Yes pretenders were a threat to power under the monarchy. Now they are just a curiosity for a minority. It is highly doubtful that Russia will ever be a monarchy again.

Yes, and it would be appreciated if you could please use the correct terminology so that you don't further confuse the issue. I explained this in detail in a post above, but for those who did not read it:

claimant = one who claims something that may or may not be true. example: AA was the best known Anastasia claimant.
pretender = a royal personage who pretends to a throne. example - The Bavarian Royal House head is now considered to be the Jacobite pretender to the English throne.

Offline Annie

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2007, 11:00:04 AM »
If the claimant aspires to a throne, even though he/she's not really the royal person he/she claims to be, then wouldn't that person also be a pretender and claimant at the same time?

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2007, 12:53:36 PM »
If one wishes to be a purist, there has been no throne of England to pretend to since 1603.
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2007, 12:44:01 AM »
If the claimant aspires to a throne, even though he/she's not really the royal person he/she claims to be, then wouldn't that person also be a pretender and claimant at the same time?

I suppose - but I would imagine that would be rare.

Offline lori_c

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Re: What Difference Does It Make?
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2007, 03:44:22 AM »
IMO it lends closure to an almost 100 year mystery.  It may not make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but I feel lucky to be in the generation that took part in closing a long cold case.  Their mortal remains matter little.  It's their souls that are together in eternity.  But I do feel priviledged to be in the age when the bones were found and they can be accorded the proper burial that was due them.

But no it doesn't change anything that happened in that cellar on that awful July night in Ekaterniburgl