Author Topic: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?  (Read 102854 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #270 on: June 22, 2005, 08:57:09 PM »
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Stop attacking JKendriks personally,

JKendricks is not the topic.  Alexei is.

 

 

 

AGRBear

 

 





Exactly, Bear! I agree strongly with you. Personnally, I think that Alexei had haemophilia and not Thrombocitopenya, but all the same, I don't think it's fair to treat Dr. Kendrick in such a nasty way. He is a profesionnal, after all.

  As for Kendricks affirmation about minorities having right and majorities being wrong, I must said...he is right. At least, sometimes. Some years later, you and me will be aware of what was the truth about Anastasia, Alexei, Heino Tammet, etc...By the time, all of us think that we know already the truth.

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Offline Belochka

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #271 on: June 22, 2005, 08:57:25 PM »
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Alexei's doctors said he had hemophilia up to 1917.  How do we know it was hemophlia and not another blood disorder, as JKendrick suggests?


There is only one reason why Mr Kendrick and no other, is attempting to convince a very small minority that Alexei did not suffer from an inherited condition. That reason is expressed in his website. I have already alluded to that connection in my previous posting (20 June).

All the best,

Belochka ;)


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #272 on: June 22, 2005, 09:03:17 PM »
There were two shooters, I think, who suffered injuries during the execution.  One was to an unnamed guard who injured his finger and  Yurovsky who claimed he lost part of his hearing in his one ear.  Now, you're going to want sources....  :-/  .  I don't remember.....  I think Penny and Greg had a bullet count and there was a huge number they thought had been fired.  And, after reading their book,  I often wondered how everyone didn't end up wounded with the way the bullets were bouncing around in that small room [the size is debated on another thread as well as different books], also, there was  the smoke which hindered their vision......

Thank you Lisameridox for your list.

Are there any other blood disorders which Alexei could have had if he didn't have hemophilia?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Belochka

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #273 on: June 22, 2005, 09:09:07 PM »
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He is a profesionnal, after all.


Mr Kendrick does not possess formal medical qualifications. That is why it is most unsafe for him to interpret selective medical information simply to serve his personal fantasies.

One might like to consider that those "minorities" who Mr Kendrick prefers to convert to form a majority in his favor must also reform!  ;D


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Offline Belochka

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #274 on: June 22, 2005, 09:15:24 PM »
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Are there any other blood disorders which Alexei could have had if he didn't have hemophilia?

AGRBear


No.

All the symptoms the Tsesarevich experienced episodically throughtout his life were because of hemophilia. One cardinal symptom is spontaneous bleeding, which was what Alexei presented with within the first year of his life.


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Offline Tasha_R

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #275 on: June 22, 2005, 09:18:16 PM »
Yes, Bear, there are a number of bleeding disorders, many of them only "discovered" in the beginning of the 20th century.

I have not had enough time to do research on all the international Hemophilia Foundation sites, but I looked closely at what there was in the U.S.  The following ones were listed which all have common symptoms, but are caused by a different difficiency.  While there were more listed than this, these were the ones which could have "fit the bill":

- (Hemophilia A) Factor VIII Deficiency
- (Hemophilia B )Factor IX Deficiency
- von Willebrand Disease
- (Afibrinogenemia) Factor I Deficiency
- (Prothrombin) Factor II Deficiency
- (Parahemophilia, Labile factor or Proaccelerin Deficiency) Factor V Deficiency
- (Stuart Prower Factor) Factor X Deficiency

Now, mind you, I haven't had the chance to look into any cancers which could also mimic the symptoms, so please don't take this as a complete list.  It was noted in some of the descriptions that they could be "acquired" as opposed to inherited, and mention of the fact that they could be acquired through kidney diseases or cancer.

I was thinking of posting several of the descriptions, as they are quite enlightening and get one to thinking, but it would be rather lengthy, even a synopsis of it.  We've already posted the links to the sites earlier in this thread, but it might still be helpful to have some of that information here.  Let me know if folks want me to post what I've synthesized from it.

Best wishes,
Tasha

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #276 on: June 22, 2005, 09:23:10 PM »
Quote

NY Times Oct 23, 1912:
"The Czarowitch Alexis is lying rather seriously ill at the imperial hunting lodge of Spala, Russian Poland as the result of an accident on Oct. 15".

October 15 new style is October 2 old style... the date of Alexei's carriage ride.  Occurring October 15 N/S and reported in New York on October 23 N/S... a delay of eight days.

NY Times Oct 25, 1912:
"His Imperial Highness is now suffering from peritonitis.  It is impossible to ascertain the real cause of his illness."


When I ran across a whole series of articles on the crisis at Spala a few years ago while looking up sources on Alexei Nikolaevich, I did realize that Spala was located in an isolated area in Poland, and that at first the usual hesitation to have much about their son revealed would have been typical of the Imperial parents.  When the news filtered out of this rustic royal vacation retreat, a lot of rumors as to the cause of the boy's apparent injuries flew.  He had been said to have been shot and wounded on the Standart, to have been maimed by an anarchist's bombs, to have jumped off a high cupboard, and to have fallen off a horse.  There was not anything about the boy's illness flying about in the press in the wake of the Spala incident until the effort to deny that the boy had hemophilia was started by that official court bulletin composed by Count Fredericks.

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October 25 new style is October 12 old style, and here the NY Times is reporting peritonitis when we now know that Alexei was already two days into his recovery after the fever had broken on October 10 O/S.. October 23rd N/S ... showing us again how much of a delay there was between the date of the actual events and the transmission of the story to New York
 
NY Times Oct. 26, 1912:
"The secrecy with respect to the injuries from which the Crown Prince is suffering has bred a crop of sensational rumors."

.. and it still is a sensational rumour to this very day.


As the articles written in the New York Times and in the London Times show, the wildest rumors were NOT about Alexei's illness, but about the cause of the incident.


Quote
NY Times Nov 9, 1912:
"The medical publication Hospital commenting on the recent pronouncement of the Czar's physicians that the Czarevich has hemophilia says the malady was frequently observed by scientists among European Royal families in the early and middle ages"

We've all seen the "recent pronouncement of the Czar's physicians" that the New York Times was referring to in its report of Nov 9, 1912.  It's the very same pronouncement that was issued by the Minister of the Imperial Court Baron Fredericks just six days before that New York Times report... on October 21 of 1912 O/S.. November 3 N/S... that carries the names of the four doctors Raukhfus, Federov, Botkin, and Ostrogorsky...

...and we all know that the "pronouncement of the Czar's physicians" most definitely does *NOT* use the word "haemophilia".  However, it does use the words "significant anemia" which is not the same thing.  (For our readers who have a hardback copy of "A Lifelong Passion" handy, the "pronouncement" that the New York Times was reporting can be found in the chapter on the year 1912 on pages 359 and 360.)


Put yourself in the shoes of the Marshal of the Russian Court at this time.  The young Tsarevich had elicited the sympathy of the entire nation and there had apparently been 'a pronouncement of the Czar's physicians' that the boy had hemophilia.  The state secret had been leaked!  How to deny this and quell this news?  He had to write a bulletin in order to convince the Russian people that the boy would be all right, and had to hedge around the child's illness.  That 'significant anemia' he mentions?  He explained that it resulted from an 'abdominal haemorrhage....' that,  'as can be seen from  the specialist literature....' took 'a very specific and extremely severe clinical form.'

That form according to the fragment of Alexei's medical record that actually did come from his doctors, was that of a haematoma retroperitonale -- that manifested itself in bleeding into the hip joint, inflammation of the OUTER peritoneum, flexing of the knee joint and the high fever due to the 'absorption of excess blood...' and 'the reactive inflammatory process'.

Quote
I could go to great length to explain to how the fledgling News Wire Services operated in the early days of the past century, many long decades before the advent of satellites and the internet... tell you in detail how news stories are edited in bunches as they move from one major news bureau to the next and are sent to the customer newspapers at regularly scheduled intervals every day.  I could also explain how newspaper stories are written and edited to attract the readers' attention while at the same time maintaining brevity for reasons of limited space on the page...


In 1912?  Maybe the delay can be explained because of the remote location, the reluctance of Nicholas and Alexandra to reveal too much until Alexei Nikolaevich's condition became too grave not to say something, and the necessity to translate from the Russian or the German.



Quote
... but you'll doubtless go to great efforts to try shooting that down too... so I won't bother.

JK

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lizameridox »

Offline Belochka

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #277 on: June 22, 2005, 09:55:48 PM »
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There were two shooters, I think, who suffered injuries during the execution.  AGRBear


I doubt that all the injuries incurred by those murderers would have been identified after the fact.


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Offline RussiaSunbeam1918

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #278 on: June 22, 2005, 10:09:50 PM »
I read in Robert K. Massie's "Final Chapter" that many of the gaurds were wounded from not only bouncing bullets, but burned from gun powder (or something) because they were that close to eachother, and some were deafened.  I usually find Mr. Massie to be a reliable scource.
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RissiaSunbeam1918 »

Offline pinklady

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #279 on: June 22, 2005, 10:47:46 PM »
I also find Robert Massie to be a most reliable source, after all his own son suffered from hemophilia and that is why he became interested in Alexei, as the world's "most famous hemophiliac" as he was trying to find out how other families coped with the illness.
In his book he states that Alexandra knew she could be a carrier of the hemophiliac gene as her Uncle, nephews and brother suffered from the illness.

Mr Kendrick insists that Queen Victoria had never heard of hemophilia even though her dear son Leopold was a bleeder and she knew her own grandchildren were afflicted in her lifetime as well. It may not have been called hemophilia then but it was called the bleeding disease.
According to Massie, the genetic pattern had been long known:
"It was discovered in 1803 by Dr John Conrad Otto of Philadelphia and confirmed in 1820 by Dr Christian Nasse of Bonn.
In 1865, the Austrian monk and botanist Gregor Johann Mandel formulated his law of genetics, based on twenty five years of breeding garden peas. In 1876, a French doctor named Grandidier declared that "all members of bleeder families should be advised against marriage."
And by 1905, a year after Alexis was born, Dr M Litten, a New Yorker, had had sufficient experience with the disease to write that hemophilic boys should be supervised while playing with other children and that they should not be subjected to corporal punishment. "Bleeders with means", he added, "should take up some learned profession; if they are students, dueling is forbidden." "

Quote: When one of Victoria's grandchildren died of the disease she said,  "Our poor family seems persecuted by this awful disease, the worst I know." I think that statement proves Victoria knew of the illness, what with a son of her own afflicted and numerous grandsons.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by pinklady »

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #280 on: June 23, 2005, 11:38:57 AM »
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Can someone give me a list of blood disorders that are similar to hemophilia which Alexei could have had if he didn't have hemophilia?


Hi Bear

Haemophilia is only just one of a very, very long list of potential blood diseases... and here's a good place to start looking... with a known list of blood diseases from Columbia University that's 12 pages long.

http://www.dmi.columbia.edu/hripcsak/icd9/1tabular280.html

The larger majority of these blood diseases all have a possible haemorrhagic diathesis with the ability to produce the very same symptoms of bleeding, easy bruising, and haemorrhage that are known to have appeared in Alexei's case.... and the causes of as many as three dozen of these same diseases can be inherited in the very same X-linked fashion as Haemophilia.

JK





Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #281 on: June 23, 2005, 12:01:13 PM »
Thanks everyone.  Now, the topic is flowing nicely and we can start to learn and make some kind of  investigation into what is possible and what is not.

Are there any more suggestions of what Alexei may have had if he didn't have hemophilia?

As to the injuries of the shooters,  maybe, someone would like to continue this topic wth me over to the thread about the shooters, Reply #33:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980524;start=0#0

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline lexi4

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #282 on: June 23, 2005, 05:07:02 PM »
Thanks for posting the website JK. Now I have a place to start to do more research.
Now, like bear said, maybe we can all start to learn something.
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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #283 on: June 23, 2005, 08:48:03 PM »
Well -- things are starting to open up here.  I have thought of a way to keep this discussion objective now that possible alternative diseases have been suggested.  Let us proceed with this discussion further under the following condition.

IMAGINE we have all read a news item much like the following:

St. Petersburg, RUSSIA, ------- ---.  200--.  

A party of five investigators have confirmed the discovery two weeks ago of the remains of Crown Prince Alexei, located in what had once been a churchyard seven miles from Yekaterinburg, the city in which the 1918 massacre occurred.   The boy was found in a rather good state of preservation and was positively identified through DNA comparison to that of the bones found in the Koptyiaki Forest.  The Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church have directed that no further scientific testing be performed upon the young Tsarevich and plan on having him laid to rest in the parish in Kashino, Russia that bears his name, consecrated in 2005.

++++

Assuming this scenario, for reasons of making sure all theories are based only on information dated before 7/17/1918 and that no further discussion of claimants emerges here:  Why might someone make an hypothesis that the poor boy had something other than hemophilia?  What circumstances would make one ask?

You now have a list of several possibilities, and now no one can deny that Alexei definitely died in 1918.  Diagnose away....

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #284 on: June 24, 2005, 02:41:20 AM »
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Assuming this scenario, for reasons of making sure all theories are based only on information dated before 7/17/1918 and that no further discussion of claimants emerges here:  Why might someone make an hypothesis that the poor boy had something other than hemophilia?  What circumstances would make one ask?

You now have a list of several possibilities, and now no one can deny that Alexei definitely died in 1918.  Diagnose away....


The most obvious circumstances that would make one ask if Alexei had something other than haemophilia are the facts that... as well as the bleeding... Alexei was also known for symptoms of high fevers, delirium, and unexplained sudden recovery.  These symptoms do occur in a number of blood disorders on that previously posted list... but they are *not* known to be primary symptoms of haemophilia.

These are symptoms that generally occur together in blood diseases that are the cause of, or are caused by, platelet disorders.  These same symptoms do *not* generally occur together in blood diseases that result from clotting factor deficiencies.

The same is true of Prince Leopold's symptom of epileptic-like seizures, known to have occured at the height of his most serious episodes.  Seizures or delirium... indicating a direct involvement of the central nervous system... are known to happen with the extremely high fevers that come with a platelet disorder in crisis.   These symptoms are *not* known to happen as a direct result of the clotting factor deficiencies of haemophilia.