Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hohenzollern => Topic started by: jfkhaos on December 01, 2004, 12:43:13 PM

Title: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on December 01, 2004, 12:43:13 PM: With the topic on Mossy, I thought maybe there should a topic on Moretta. I know that she was in love with Alexander of Battenberg (Sandro) but was not allowed to marry him. She eventually settled on a Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe, and when he died, she married Alexander Zubkov. Any pictures? Any additional information someone can provide? Thanks!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 01, 2004, 03:36:27 PM: I know that the Kaiser all but disowned her upon her 2nd marriage. When AZ had basically run through her entire fortune and reduced her to penury, there was an auction conducted of the Schaumburg-Lippe palace contents. Some of the items she no longer had claim to as she'd remarried but among the items auctioned were several items belong to Moretta that she'd inherited from her mother. Among them were 2 silver and china sets given to her parents for their 25th wedding anniversary and a silver bust of Frederick III. Perhaps due to the burgeoning depression and devaluation of the mark (as well as the glut of royal items post-revolutions) many of the items went for cents on the dollar (or mark as it were).
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on December 01, 2004, 03:44:53 PM: (http://www.preussen.de/Bilder/Geschichte/friedrich_III./victoria_moretta_jung_INTERNET.jpg)

(http://www.preussen.de/Bilder/Geschichte/friedrich_III./victoria_moretta_2_INTERNET.jpg)

(http://www.geocities.com/jesusib/moretta.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Jim1026 on December 01, 2004, 04:15:12 PM: Quote
With the topic on Mossy, I thought maybe there should a topic on Moretta. I know that she was in love with Alexander of Battenberg (Sandro) but was not allowed to marry him. She eventually settled on a Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe, and when he died, she married Alexander Zubkov. Any pictures? Any additional information someone can provide? Thanks!

I know from an article in the London Times concerning her funeral that the only members of her family to attend her funeral at Burg Kronberg were Margaret and Henry's wife Irene. The ex Kaiser sent a wreath but former Queen Sophie ignored the event totally. She was buried with the Hesse Kassel family at Burg Kronberg.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 01, 2004, 04:47:18 PM: Where did the nickname Moretta come from?

Also, any information on the whereabouts of the silver bust of Frederick mentioned in the auction inventory?

Lastly, was Sandro Battenburg the only "Sandro" in Europe royal families? Seems there was a dashing Sandro amongst the courts who was rumored to have been more interested in men than women. Could this have been the reason for not marrying him?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on December 01, 2004, 04:55:08 PM: Sandro was interested in Moretta and she much more in him...but Kaiser Wilhelm I and Wilhelm II would not hear of it. Frederick III added a codicil which requested Wilhelm II not to stand in the way of the marriage but it was not to be. Sandro Battenberg married Johanna von Loisinger (sp?) and faded into obscurity dying relatively early I believe.

Empress Frederick was gung-ho for the marriage and it appears she brought her husband around to her way of thinking, but Queen Victoria was all for it early on but then had to send subtle hints to slow down and let it alone for the present.

The Hohenzollerns (not all of them, but Wilhelm I, Frederick III (to an extent; he tried to have the title His Royal Highness denied to Liko husband of Beatrice) and Wilhelm II especially so) looked down upon the Battenbergs.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Angie_H on December 01, 2004, 05:05:40 PM: Moretta & her sister Sophie
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/VictoriaSophieofPrussia_Vickys.jpg)
All 4 sisters
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/CharlotteVictoriaMargarethaandSophie.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 01, 2004, 06:44:48 PM: Moretta was christened Friederike Wilhelmine Amalie Viktoria . This somewhat mollified QV as she’d been miffed that Charlotte (whose first name was Victoria) wasn’t called by that but this 2nd daughter would be. Tragedy soon struck when a couple months after her birth, her brother Sigismund died of meningitis. These seemed to usher in the misfortune which would cloud Moretta’s life. Her mother practically had a nervous breakdown by this death coming as it did when she was beginning to become estranged from her older children. Thus, Vicky clung to Moretta and , combined with the fact that she had more control over her children at this point, became greatly attached to her. She had been denied a good deal of input into the raising of her elder three children and being barely out of her teens had lacked the fortitude to demand it. Moretta’s birth had been early and arduous and was exacerbated by the fact that Fritz had to go fight in the Austrian War leaving Vicky alone. When Moretta was 14, her younger brother Waldemar died of diptheria and Vicky clung even harder to Moretta and her younger sisters, Sophie and Mossy. I think Vicky once referred to the 3 as being like a 3-leaf clover for her. Moretta did resemble her eldest brother in one way—both were cursed with impetuousness and strong emotions which sometimes overwhelmed their common sense. This was to bear bitter fruit in her love affair with Alexander of Battenberg. She fell in love with him and desired to marry him and in this had the full support of her mother and grandmother, the reluctant support of her father and the adamant opposition of the Hohenzollerns, especially her brother and grandfather and also of Chancellor Bismarck. Bismarck’s concern was that the match would anger the Russians who were displeased with Sandro’s rule in Bulgaria (and would eventually achieve his overthrow). This stalemate went on for years. When it seemed that permission may finally be granted when her father became Emperor, it was too late. Sandro had already fallen in love with the opera singer Johanna Loisinger whom he would marry in 1889 and have 2 children with before his early death. Even when it had become obvious that Sandro had ‘moved on’, Moretta clung to her hopes and in this, unfortunately, Vicky supported her. The result would be pain and bitterness at how so many years had been lost in futile hope.. Moretta was now plunged into deep depression, so much so that her mother worried for her health—both physical and mental. Moretta apparently even talked of suicide. She lost a great deal of weight and bemoaned that she was ugly and no one would ever want to marry her and that she’d lost her one chance at happiness. All of this went on with the backdrop of her beloved father’s illness and death and her mother’s grief. In 1889, Moretta went to spend the summer with Queen Victoria and regained a bit of her spirits and health. Vicky now turned towards finding her a husband as Moretta’s sister Sophie had recently married and this weighed on Moretta as well since Sophie was younger and Moretta bout 23 yrs old (rather long-in-the-tooth for the times and her position). Despite her bewailing of her own looks, Moretta was not unattractive—she had thick dark blonde hair, a long nose and oval face. She was also blessed with eyes that gave her appearance what a biographer described as a ‘wild, half-Tartar’ look. They were widely-spaced, almond shaped and either blue or gray (not sure which but would imagine blue). They were probably her best feature. She had a trim, athletic figure (unlike her sister Charlotte whom Vicky described as being oddly proportioned) despite her thinking herself too thick. Thus, with her connections, Vicky didn’t imagine it would be hard to find a husband for her daughter and she and QV began the search through the royal houses. Prince Carl of Sweden was considered and so was a Romanov Grand Duke (Boris?) but no one ‘stepped up’. This left Moretta embarrassed and rejected and crying that everyone married except her ‘stupid self’. She feared that ‘bitter disappointment’ would be her lot in life. Vicky expressed her concerns to Moretta’s sister Sophie in letters. Some princes may have feared ‘taking on’ a princess whom seemed rather obsessive and even somewhat unstable. Eventually a prince was found—Adolf of Schaumburg-Lippe. This prince was 7 years older than Moretta, rather plain (esp in comparison with Sandro), rather socially awkward, not very bright (much to Vicky’s despair) but he was kindly, led a peaceful life (he preferred the military rather than any ‘politicking’), was willing (and suitable) to marry, and, perhaps most importantly, Willy would grant approval. Thus Vicky’s objections were put aside for the sake of her daughter and, the 2 were married in Nov 1890. It seemed that Moretta might finally achieve the peace and happiness she craved. She had always wanted 2 things out of life: to be married and to have children. Now that one was achieved, it seemed the other would follow. This was not to be, however, as Vicky would soon report to Sophie that Moretta had suffered an early miscarriage while on her honeymoon (which took them to Egypt among other places) and there would be no more pregnancies in the years to come. Life continued in a relatively quiet pattern for many years—if it wasn’t what Moretta had dreamed of as a child, it wasn’t miserable. She had a comfortable life with a fair amount of freedom and a husband who was devoted to her. When Vicky was diagnosed with cancer, Moretta and Mossy became her primary caregivers and had to witness their beloved mother’s agony. When Queen Victoria died in 1901, Moretta attended and reported back to Vicky on the details of her ‘beloved Mama’s’ funeral. Vicky herself would die just 7 months later and Moretta would again be outraged over Wilhelm’s behavior. Life again settled down until the horror of WW1. Adolf, while not her great love, had provided her a measure of happiness, and she grieved his loss in July 1916 (not in combat). After the German Revolution, Moretta was allowed to live in Germany though the landscape had altered completely. Moretta didn’t seem to realize quite how much. The Prince of Wales (her first cousin once removed) saw her after the war while stationed in Germany with the war staff. He was taken aback when she commented on how they (the extended network of cousins) would all be able to get back to normal again. He reported to his father that she didn’t seem to understand the bitterness England felt towards Germany. In the mid-1920s, feeling lonely and rather isolated, Moretta met the man who would provide the final sad chapter in her life. Alexander Zubkov, 35 years her junior, passed himself off as a noble Russian emigre, but was in fact, a penniless con-man. Since, for once, she had complete autonomy over her own life and decisions, she married him (despite her own and Adolf’s family’s objections) in Nov 1927 when she was 61. This cost her her benefits as Adolf’s widow and she was forced to move out of her home (palace). This marriage caused Moretta to become the object of scorn and ridicule throughout Europe. The tabloid press gleefully reported on the marriage and Zubkov delighted in the money he could make by staging photo-ops and granting interviews as the ‘Kaiser’s brother-in-law’. There seemed to be no level to which he woudn’t stoop and eventually even Moretta’s eyes were opened to his behavior. At this point though, he’d run through all her money (spending good bits on failed ‘business ventures’, other women and possibly drugs) and she forced to undergo a public auction of most of her possessions to pay creditors. Among the items were many left to her by her parents, including some of the presents from their 25th wedding anniversary. Because of the devaluation of the mark, she would received very little money from this sale but realize much in sorrow. Penniless, estranged from most of her relations, when she did leave him, she was forced to reside in a small apartment. Far from realizing the hoped-for comfort of a companion in her later years, she received nothing but disillusionment and humiliation on a scale larger than her ill-fated romance of 40 years prior. Moretta would file for divorce in 1929 but before the matter could be heard in court (even more public embarassment), Moretta died in Nov 1929 at age 63. As for Zubkov, he ended his days a penniless exile (having been given the boot out of Germany under a law expelling Russian exiles) in Luxemburg at age 35. A rather sleazy book would be written on the marriage, The Great Hohenzollern Scandal and Moretta would publish her own, watered-down memoirs, My Memoirs.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on December 01, 2004, 06:59:10 PM: I always thought it was Friederikke Amelie Wilhelmine Viktoria. Am I incorrect?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 01, 2004, 07:47:13 PM: Whew. Grandduchess, what a bio on poor poor Moretta. It is more tragic than the Romanov story! From regal princess to scorned pauper. Did she at least get a decent funeral and burial? Such a story is ripe for a movie script.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 01, 2004, 07:48:57 PM: By the by, the photo above of the four girls appears to have been taken at a studio in England. What does "to the Queen" refer to? Was it usual that the German royal family would be in photo sessions in other countries?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 01, 2004, 09:04:25 PM: Quote
By the by, the photo above of the four girls appears to have been taken at a studio in England. What does "to the Queen" refer to? Was it usual that the German royal family would be in photo sessions in other countries?

'To the Queen' refers to the fact that they were one of the favored photographers of the royal family--I think it's a Royal Warrant (?) Stores and sellers still use them today. There were often foreign royals photographed in England but in this case, the 4 girls were granddaughters of Queen Victoria and she probably had them photographed or Vicky did on a visit.

PrinceEddy: I double-checked and the source says Friederike Wilhelmine Amalie Viktoria

HerrKaiser: I believe she had a decent funeral (not highly attended though) that some of her siblings paid for and she was laid to rest near her parents I believe. Mossy and Irene were there--I think Henry had already died. I'm not sure if Wilhelm even sent flowers--I'll have to go back and check. There still hadn't been much contact with the British royals--some letters back and forth I think, but a representative (maybe the Ambassador?) was sent to the funeral.

At one point Adolf was briefly Regent of Lippe which he assumed by force (not sure exactly what that means--I don't think he went in with an Army) with the support Emperor Wilhelm . He was eventually forced to surrender the regency after a ruling by a tribunal of Arbitration presided over by King Albert of Saxony. I know that EF in her letters to Sophie goes over this a bit, I'll have to go see.

On a side note, the Lippes had some odd occurences. One being a cousin of Adolf's, Adolf II Bernhard of Schaumburg-Lippe, who renounced his throne on 16 November 1918. He and his wife Ellen were killed in Zompango, Mexico when their airplane crashed into the side of a volcano. (not the usual way to go for royals)

This may be Adolf's niece, was the Hermine of Reuss who married Kaiser Wilhelm. Her mother was Ida Mathilde Adelheid of Schaumburg-Lippe.

Another of Ida's daughters married Wilhelm Ernst of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach who was a sadist. It's rumored she committed suicide, other reports that she died in childbirth. He abdicated in Nov 1918 as was called the Most Unpopular Prince in Germany.

Friedrich of Schaumburg-Lippe married Princess Louise of Denmark (eldest daughter of Crown Prince Frederick and niece to MF and Queen Alexandra). She reportedly died of a cerebral inflammation but other stories say that she drowned herself in a lake due to her unhappiness in her marriage and adopted country.

There are assorted deaths by accident (falling off horses, dying by carbon monoxide poisoning) and wartime casualties (WW1 and WW2). It seems that poor Moretta married into a rather jinxed family. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Angie_H on December 18, 2004, 09:54:19 PM: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/VictoriaofPrussiabyAngeli.jpg)
Victoria by Heinrich von Angeli
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Jim1026 on December 19, 2004, 09:22:49 AM: Have any of our posters seen the burial place or have pictures of the Hessian burial ground at Burg Kronberg?
Pr. Friedrich Karl of Hesse Kassel, Pss. Margreit , Pss. Victoria (Mossy) and members of Pr. Friedrich Karl's family have been buried there. I read somewhere that
they are buried in a garden at the Burg (not to be confused with Empress Friedrich's schloss). I have seen various aerial shot of the Burg and cannot make out any thing which would resemble a burial ground. :P
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Iskenderbey on March 10, 2005, 03:01:27 PM: Hello.
I was reading an article on Victoria, and I was amazed by a picture the had posted that reminded me very much so of her niece, Helen of Greece, Queen Mother of Romania. I might be wrong, but it was a crazy resemblance! Anyone agree.
Here is the site. Maybe someone has other pictures of Moretta that we can compared? regards!

Here is the site
http://www.geocities.com/jesusib/Moretta.html
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2005, 06:59:54 PM: It would be great to know or to see much more of her!Anything I know was that she died peniless because of her second marriage!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eurohistory on March 10, 2005, 07:25:42 PM: There is an interesting book about Victoria's scandalous second marriage. I believe it is titled THE GREAT HOHENZOLLERN SCANDAL. Such a sad story.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 10, 2005, 10:21:10 PM: Quote
There is an interesting book about Victoria's scandalous second marriage. I believe it is titled THE GREAT HOHENZOLLERN SCANDAL. Such a sad story.

Arturo Beéche

Did you like that book Art? I have it and found it such a sleaze fest in how it was written. :-/
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: sydguy71 on March 11, 2005, 06:32:37 AM: Forgive my ignorance, but what was the great scandal....sounds like a book worth reading ;D
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alicky1872 on March 11, 2005, 08:08:02 AM: Basically, she married a Russian emigre (and con artist) thirty years younger than herself, named Alexander Zoubkov, who stole all her money. She died peniless and brokenhearted.

Although I'm sure there are others who could give you a more long winded take on this. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on March 11, 2005, 10:34:15 AM: Have you read the collection of her letters 'Queen Victoria at Windsor & Balmoral' from June 1889, edited by James Pope Hennessy. They are very moving; I think it very sad how she looks at all her relations who are becoming engaged & married & despairs that she is so unloveable. It seems to me that that idea stayed with her all her life, even after her marriage to Adolph (which Vicky claimed she accepted 'in her despair' of finding anyone else.) Perhaps that is why even so late in life she responded well to the flattery (I presume) of the 'con man'.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 11, 2005, 11:23:11 AM: Quote
Thanks for that info,Alicky!Very sad princess indeed...

It was indeed quite sad. There was one humiliation after the other--he publcly exploited their marriage cojoling her to give interviews and posed for publicity photos that were often used to mock them and esp her; it estranged her from her immediate and extended families; she was forced to abandon her home because she was no longer Adolf's widow when she remarried; she wound up selling even some of the silver wedding annivesary presents that had been her parents and which were bequeathed to her for pennies on the dollar (or mark) ; she wound up destitute in a tiny apartment with only one devoted servant to take care of her and basically willed herself into dying.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alicky1872 on March 11, 2005, 11:32:02 AM: Quote
Have you read the collection of her letters 'Queen Victoria at Windsor & Balmoral' from June 1889, edited by James Pope Hennessy. They are very moving; I think it very sad how she looks at all her relations who are becoming engaged & married & despairs that she is so unloveable.

Yes, not to mention her desire to have a baby, while her sisters and cousins had child after child... Vicky's letters to Sophie about Moretta's pain, are heartbreaking to read.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on March 11, 2005, 11:46:49 AM: If only she could have married Sandro... :( These stories are always so full of 'if onlys.'
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alicky1872 on March 11, 2005, 11:51:58 AM: I know we say everything happens for the best, and to an extent this is true, but would Moretta have been better off with Sandro? She would have been under so much strain from the uncertainty of his throne, she would have been at constant odds with her brother Willy, then there's the fact that Sandro died young...so I think she was better off with Adolf, but if only Alexander Z. hadn't come into her life!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on March 11, 2005, 12:01:27 PM: With Sandro, though, I think she would have recovered her self-esteem. She wouldn't have had to go through all those humiliating & desperate attempts to find her husaband which led Willy to say she would marry 'anyone who was manly' & eventually led even QV
to consider her desperation unseemly.
Perhaps if she had been brought up with the Hessians, for example, she might have realized that marriage was not the be-all & end-all, but for Moretta I think it was - which made her all the more desperate.
I don't think she loved Adolph. Vicky wrote:
"In her depression & discouragement, feeling that the happibness she had hoped for is not to be hers, she accepts [him]"
Her miscarriage & sibsequent inability to have more children must have been truly heart-breaking for, as you say. She had been denied happiness with the man she really loved & then denied the children she SO wanted. Even when did settle with Adolph (& Marie Mallet described them as 'a most devoted couple') there came all the furore & squabbling about Detmold. Nothing EVER seemed to work out for her.
Had she married Sandro, I think, she might at least have had the one 'grand passion' - however brief - that would have brought her some satisfaction. "Better to have loved & lost than never to have loved at all..." etc.
(But then, of course, I am viewing it romantically rather than practically...as is constantly my failing ;) )
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Iskenderbey on March 11, 2005, 01:30:22 PM: Quote
I can understand the resemblance; however, the majority of pictures I have seen of Viktoria do not look like this at all. I will try to find some and post to show you.

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs24/viktoriaprussia1866-2.jpg)(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs24/viktoriaprussia1866-5.jpg)

Even in these pictures that you posted i see the resemblance....maybe I'm wrong. Anyone else have some pictures that can be posted so we can compare?
Arturo, no imput on this one? haha
Regards
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eurohistory on March 12, 2005, 09:46:04 AM: As her niece, yes I can see some facial resemblence between Helen Greece and Victoria Schaumburg-Lippe...what is uncanniest here is the resemblance in their marital experiences...such terrible sadness they both shared. Loveless marriages...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 12, 2005, 09:59:16 PM: Here's Moretta's wedding picture. A newspaper account of the day said that it was Vicky's lace veil that she wore. How sad that if it was it wasn't used for the same happy love-match that Vicky made.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/hohenzollern/SF125102.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on March 13, 2005, 05:56:23 AM: Thank you for posting these pictures, jfkhaos & grandduchessella :)
She has a very sad look about her in all her pictures I think. On the final one - perhaps it is just that it isn't close-up - she doesn't look out of place (or rather much older than her husband) does she? It seems a very small gathering - presumably no one else attended? As it shows her being married by the Orthodox rite, did she convert?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2005, 11:47:05 AM: I don't think she converted, I think that she was just married in the Orthodox rite (much like Sophie originally did).
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Danjel on March 13, 2005, 04:29:11 PM: Here is another picture of her second marriag to Alexander Zoubkoff in 1927

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/2ndwedding1927.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on March 13, 2005, 05:23:35 PM: Ah yes, Danjel, she does look quite a bit older than him there. How very sad that it all ended so unfotunately.
Thank you for posting the picture, & thank you grandduchessella for explaining that she didn't convert.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eurohistory on March 14, 2005, 09:25:33 AM: For her it was a nightmare...one can only but wonder what state of loneliness she must have been in to get herself involved with such people.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 10:11:41 AM: Unfortunately it's not an unusual scenario. You hear all the time about rich elderly widows who are seduced by a younger man (who always seem so oily and fake I can never understand it) who then swindle them out of most, if not all, of their money. It seems especially prevelant when the woman has no children to protect them or provide companionship.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 14, 2005, 10:22:02 AM: And, quite often, it may be her own children doing the swindling.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on March 14, 2005, 11:32:36 AM: Given that we have now seen a photo of Moretta on her second way (and thank you Danjel!) does anyone have information abt or pictures from Moretta's first wedding?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 12:40:39 PM: Quote
Given that we have now seen a photo of Moretta on her second way (and thank you Danjel!) does anyone have information abt or pictures from Moretta's first wedding?

Marlene once wrote that there weren't photos taken of the Hohenzollern weddings. I have some sketches of it but haven't scanned them yet. Those seem to be what was most available back then and, unfortunately, weren't always very accurate.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on March 14, 2005, 02:12:15 PM: Quote
Yes, and Moretta looks something like the bride of Frankenstein! What was she thinking?! Pity her marriage would be brief even if Zoubkoff had not been a scoundrel.

It is a very unfortunate picture & she certainly doesn't look like a happy bride; in fact I think she looks quite ill. It makes you wonder if perhaps she knew he was only marrying her for her money...maybe she did but was past caring. It re-echoes Vicky's much earlier letter, "She knows that happiness is not to be hers."
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2005, 08:50:51 AM: Quote
Moretta in (slightly) happier times...jumpng over her husband's (Adolph's) breakfast table! :D

I think a copy of this photo can be found in the new Frances Diamond book on Queen Alexandra and photography.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on April 05, 2005, 05:20:42 AM: When I was looking for more about Johanna Loisinger, I came across a rather bizarre suggestion that she was the basis for the character Irene Adler in a Sherlock Holmes story - one who caused a scandal for the 'King of Bohemia' (a title which no longer existed, but which could have been applied to Sandro??)
The rather bizarre article went on to suggest that Grand Duke Pavel might have been the 'King of Bohemia' - in which case Irene Adler would have been Princess Paley? Is it just a load of rot or does anyone know more about this, please?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on April 05, 2005, 11:17:32 AM: Interesting--I'd never heard that. I really like the Irene Adler stories that Carole Nelson Douglas writes.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on April 07, 2005, 06:43:16 AM: Thanks for the picture of Johanna, Marc. (I can't see the Moretta one :-/ ) Do you know if the two women ever met? There is no mention of Moretta ever resenting Johanna, is there? It would be intersting to know if, after Sandro's death, they did ever meet.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on April 07, 2005, 08:44:47 AM: The one of Moretta was painted by Vicky! :)

She painted portraits (we have them somewhere on the Forum) of Henry (in naval uniform) , Charly & Waldemar (in a costume like Moretta) and Mossy as well. I wish I'd ever seen one of Sophie.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on April 07, 2005, 08:49:57 AM: It's one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. :D
There is a line in one of Vicky's letters to QV describing a time when she was staying in Cannes with her children & the Hessians (during Louis & Fritz's absence to the Suez Canal opening). Vicky said she was painting a picture of the little daughter of the Archbishop (of Madras - can't remember, I think it was somewhere in India??). Has anyone ever seen THAT picture?
It would be lovely to see it because, by her description, you can imagine her painting it.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on April 29, 2005, 12:59:09 PM: Does anyone know, please, if Moretta ever returned to England after 1918? (I hope that this hasn't been discussed elsewhere...if it has, I'm sorry.) I know she was almost as much an anglophile as her mother & that after the war she was eager to restore good relations between the cousins. Do you think she was at all successful?
If she - or any other German cousins - came to England, how were they received?
I don't know of any of the English ones (of that generation) going to Germany - but then, I suppose, in the wake of a revolution, it wouldn't have been a good idea. :-/
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on April 29, 2005, 07:30:31 PM: I dont think that she did return to England. There was the incident where either the Prince of Wales or Duke of Windsor (I think it was the former) visited her after the war while attached to the British military. Moretta asked how quickly relations could be restored and the Prince was taken aback that she didnt' seem to realize the bitterness that existed and was very naive in thinking things could return to the way they once were.

GV adamently opposed the idea of extraditing the Kaiser and trying him for war crimes but never corresponded with him again. Wilhelm did write to QM when GV died and they exchanged some letters after that though.

Sophie maintained correspondence with GV and QM and visited England but because of the troubled relationship w/Greece during and after the War their later visits were conducted privately.

I don't think that Mossy visited again and don't know about her correspondence but as she and QM lived to about the same period they may well have written again. Ernie I would imagine had some contact but I don't think he came to Britain again though his sons did. I don't know about Henry & Irene.

Charles Duke of Coburg (Leo's son) walked in the procession of GV's funeral. I think one of Ernie's sons may have represented him.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on April 29, 2005, 09:37:15 PM: In her memoirs she records that in May 1919 she received a visit from her uncle Arthur Duke of Connaught. He was inspecting the British troops stationed in Bonn and he expressed a wish to see his niece. 'After all that had occured it moved me deeply to see him again. He was very pressed for time, so we could only be togethr for a little while; but it was just sufficient to talk over bygone days, and he was, as usual, most affectionate.'

Nowhere does she mention visiting England after that or any communications.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on April 30, 2005, 03:35:43 AM: Thank you, grandduchessella :). Poor Moretta - nothing that she wanted ever seemed to work out for her. It is a great pity, too, about Sophie being perceived as something of an enemy, when she also loved England so much. It would have broken's Vicky's heart had she lived to see it.

Were Sophie's children still in England throughout the war? She left them there when war broke out, under the care of George V, did she not? Do you know when they returned to her? Or how the strained relations between Britain & Greece affected them?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on April 30, 2005, 10:36:16 AM: I'm not sure if they were left there.

Alexander, Paul, Helen and Irene all attended school in England during the summers. While they were there Sophie would visit her relatives and then spend part of the summer at Eastborne on the shore. She was actually there when matters came to a head. I thought that she gathered up what children were there and returned to Greece but I could be wrong. At any rate they were in Greece by the time the attempt was made on Constantine I's life. When a fire was set in the area of the palace and the family forced to flee, Sophie had to run with 3-yr old Katharine in her arms. The two were separated from the rest of the group and temporarily trapped by flames. Sophie barely made it to the awaiting car before collapsing.

Ironically as Britain headed towards war Sophie had the company of her brother Henry. He was at Cowes for some of the sailing. He visited GV on July 25 where the famous misunderstanding of Britain's intentions was made. Henry had to admit that in his excitement he may have read more into what the King said than was there and relayed an overly-optimistc view to the Kaiser. (Probably didn't really matter as events were moving quickly beyond individual control) The 2 cousins shook hands upon Henry's departure and hoped they would see each other again in friendly circumstances.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: bluetoria on April 30, 2005, 12:31:36 PM: Thanks again, grandduchessella!
I'd forgotten about the fire in the palace. I don't know why I believed that she left at least some of her children under George's care...I'll have to look again. Could it have been in Theo Aronson's Crowns in Conflict?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: aleksandra on May 15, 2005, 04:14:20 AM: have anymore info on her, like relatonships with famliy or friends. any letters that are published?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: crazy_wing on June 19, 2005, 11:51:02 PM: so many adolfs... adolf I & II and adolf, moretta's husband. i always thought moretta's husband was in-line to the throne but he was only the 2nd of son of adolf I...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on May 05, 2006, 11:06:45 AM: This Princess was lovely, but it seems she didn't have much luck. Her life story was indeed tragic, and one feels for her. Obviously, she did not always have good judgement when it came to men-that last one especially. Most likely, the strain of all that was somewhat responsible for her death. What did she die of , medically? Are there any more pictures of her? I love looking at them, she also had nice colouring. It seems that in what she wanted most, marriage and children, she didn't have much luck, nor in life at all. Any one who knows more about her, please post!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on May 05, 2006, 11:24:22 AM: She really had a tragic story- but the most tragic is the secoond part of her life. I don't find it surprising that she willed herself to death- after that, with the rest of the disapointments of her life, most would have. What happened to her with her second marriage has happened to others; but with her it was also the rest of the bad luck of her life you must take into account. Her looks remind me a bit of Tatiana, daughter of Nicholas II of Russia-very eastern as it were. But her coloring is different. I suppose she was lonely, and may have partly realized her secind husband was not sincere, although I am not sure she didn't care anymore. It's too bad that her family coudn't have prevented it; marrying Sandro of Battenberg was far less a danger than that guy.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 10, 2006, 06:25:58 PM: From The Mountbattens, by Antony Lambton.

There is a copy of an article from the Daily Express of 1929, along with a good but odd picture of Victoria and her second husband. Unfortunately, I do not have a scanner. Maybe someone else has the book.

Anyway, here is the article:

RUINED SISTER OF EX-KAISER

TRAGIC SALE OF HER TREASURES

DEBTS OF A WAITER'S WIFE

Berlin, Tuesday, Oct. 15.

"Frau Alexander Zoubkoff, nee Princess Victoria of Prussia, has failed to satisfy her creditors. Her property and effects must, therefore, now be sold by auction."

Herr Schultze, Bailiff of Cologne, nervously made this announcement this morning as, with beads of perspiration pouring from his forehead, he opened the sale by auction in the Schaumburg Palace at Bonn of the treasures of Frau Alexander Zoubkoff, the ex-Kaiser's sister, whom romance in the shape of a young Russian waiter has driven, in less than eighteen months, to financial ruin.

The bailiff took up his stand before the vast crowd of nondescript-looking persons who had flocked to share in the spoils of the Hohenzollern princess' humiliation, in the same spot in the great Schaumburg Hall of Mirrors where in the days of her glory, the princess had been wont to welcome to her home the mightiest rulers and most lovely princesses of the courts of Europe.

ZOUBKOFF'S ARREST.

At the very moment that Herr Schultze raised his hammer to knock down the first lot--a magnificent old English teapot--Alexander Zoubkoff, hounded from country to country, was just being arrested by the French police at Deidenheim, on the Franco-Luxembourg frontier, as he was trying surreptitiously to cross into France.

Precious pieces of old London silver, many of them stamped with the Royal Arms of England, failed most remarkably to achieve the prices that had been expected by expert valuers as their due. A great oval barouque soup tureen stamped "London 1770," which had been inherited by Frau Zoubkoff's mother from Queen Victoria, changed hands for a paltry L300. It had been expected to fetch at least L1,000.

A particularly poignant moment came when a silver statue of the Emperor Frederick, the Princess' father, was offered for sale, but failed to raise a bid. Eventually it was practically given away at half its starting price for L5--a sum which its value in silver exceeded.

It is now considered absolutely impossible that the proceeds from the sale of her treasures will suffice to meet Frau Zoubkoff's debts, which are estimated to be close on L50,000.

The ex-Kaiser's sister will, therefore, be left penniless and at the mercy of her Hohenzollern relatives, who, embittered by the disgrace that they consider she has brought on their house by her marriage to the waiter, will not be over-anxious to support her.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 10, 2006, 07:30:45 PM: Here's another article from the NYT:

The Schaumburg Sale

'The contents of the schaumburg Palace at Bonn are to be sold by auction early in October. The palace is the residence of Princess Victoria zu Schaumburg-Lippe....The objects to be sold mainly represent inherited property of Prince Adolf and the Princess. The latter part of the collection includes many objects which still bear the inventory ticket or the monogram 'V' of the Empress Frederick...Many of them were wedding presents to the Empress Frederick. There are many examples of the work of the London silversmiths, including a silver table service, weighing 44 lb and given by the Emperor Wilhelm I to his son and daughter-in-law at the time of their silver wedding in 1883. Among the glass and china is a glass service given by the Prince Consort to his daughter, and a chin table service specially made by the Berlin Royal china manfuactory and presented by the Municipality on the occasion of the silver wedding.'

and another:

The Schaumburg Sale: Former Kaiser's Telegram
Frankfurt Oct 8

'The sale by auction of the contents of the Schaumburg Palace at Bonn on the Rhine has been fixed for next Tuesday. According to telegrams from Bonn and Cologne, published in the Frankfurt Press today, the chief auctioneeer has sent out catalogues of the inventory of the Palace in view of the fact that the estate of Mme Zoubkoff included valuable heirlooms which Queen Victoria had bequeated to her daughter, the Empress Frederick, and to Mme Zoubkoff. The former Kaiser, who otherwise had been completely inactive in the whole matter, is now reported to have telegraphed from Doorn to the chief auctioneer suggesting that the heirlooms of his mother and grandmother should be offered to the representative of the British Royal Family. It is reported that the auction has attracted much attention, and that all the leading London art dealers were sending representatives to Bonn.'

The Schaumburg Sale: Spiritless Bidding
Frankfurt Oct 15
'The sale by auction of the contents of the Shaumburg Palace at Bonn began today and will continue until Saturday. The auction was attended by numerous art dealers and many British, French, and German journalists. Up to the very last moment hopes were cherished that the former Kaiser would intervene after all and buy up the whole bankrupt sale of his sister...by neither the British Royal Family nor the House of Hohenzollern have sent representatives.

The first bids revealed that the importance of the auction had been greatly over-estimated, as the various objects were sold at almost ridiculous prices. The auction began with the contents of the valuable silver chamber, a considerable portion of which represents the work of old London silversmiths. For instance, a large oval baroque tureeen with a lid of worked silver and artistic decoration, a masterpiece of London silversmiths of the year 1750, weighing 113 oz of silver, went to a Swiss bidder for 6000 marks (GBP 300). Another similiar tureen, which had been valued at 20,000 marks, fetched on 3,200 marks. As the debts of Mme Zoubkoff amount to 900,000 marks (GBP 45,000), it is estimated that the proceeds of the auction will only cover one-third of that sum.

The Frankfurter Zeitung also mentions that a painful situation arose when a silver bust of the Emperor Frederick...was offered without any bids being made. After the opening price had been reduced by one-half, the bust was finally purchased by an English dealer at the price of 110 marks (GBP 5 10s). As the bust contains 55 oz of silver, this price appears to be even below the actual market value of silver.

The auction went better in the course of this afternoon, when many small objects were bought by the public at large at reasonable prices.'

and one on her funeral just a couple of months later

M Zoubkoff Arrested
Berlin Nov 14

'...was arrested this morning in Bonn, whither he had come from Luxembourg with the object of attending the funeral of Frau Zoubkoff....was expelled from Germany some time ago as an undesirable alien, and was arrested because he re-entered the country without applying for permission.'

Frankfurt Nov 14
'The body of Frau Zoubkoff arrived this morning at the Friedrichshof Castle....In accordance with her own request, Frau Zoubkoff is to be buried in the chapel of the old Cromberg Castle beside the two Hessian princes, Max and Frederick, who were killed in the War. [Mossy's sons] The funeral on Saturday is to be attended by Prince Adalbert of Prussia, as representative of the ex-Kaiser, and by Prince Henry of Prussia.'
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 10, 2006, 08:03:02 PM: What a sad end for the poor lady....

I would love to have seen the silver bust of Fritz....I'm sure it probably no longer exists.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on May 11, 2006, 09:35:27 AM: Yes, that guy was certainly not beneficial to the poor Princess. She ought to have been kept from marrying him instead of being kept so many years earlier from marrying Sandro of Battenberg. It's rather sad that the marriage her family ( well, some of her family), and German political leaders tried to prevent was that one, not this one. I guess a disastrous marriage was her fate anyway. Perhaps she married Zoubkov partly in revenge for the earlier marriage not being allowed. As the widow of Adolph of Schaumberg-Lippe, no one could prevent her from the marriage-although it might have been good if they had. Some say that Moretta wasn't a beauty, but when she was young her pictures show a striking young woman.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 14, 2006, 05:32:16 PM: I have got quite a few photos of Victoria – most of them are from the period when she was married to Alexander Zoubkoff (Sascha). On the back side of one of them (where she stands at the side of Sascha and looks quite happy) she herself has written a greeting to Saschas mother – Mary Zoubkoff:

“Kindest regards to my mother in law /…/ happy – my Sascha & myself. Yours sincerely

Viktoria
Schaumburg Lippe
Princess of Prussia

10.31 1927”

I can’t decode what she has written in the /…/ part of the letter..
Nor am I sure whether the date is 31.10-1927 or 31.10-1929, but I guess it most probably is the first date, and accordingly a couple of weeks before her marriage.

I have also got a lot of letters written to Saschas mother – I have not had the time to read all of them yet – most of them are quite hard to decipher – but hopefully some day I will have the time to read them.

I could post some of the photos, but the problem is I don’t know how to do.. If someone tells me, I will try to do so next weekend!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Michael_II on May 16, 2006, 03:50:37 PM: Any pictures of her funeral/burial site?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 18, 2006, 05:21:58 PM: She thought she was happy with him and maybe in the first period with him she was. He gave her some new experiences. Before meeting him she just knew how to live the life of a princess. A life of strict rules. I think she was bored to death living that life. In fact in the photos I have got of her from younger days she looks very bored. Sascha brought her some excitement – E.g. he drove her around Germany on a motorcycle. In many of the photos from this period, a new light in Viktoria’s eyes can bee seen… Then everything ended of course. That is natural. But still I think she was a very fortunate person. I mean first experiencing the life of a princess and than the life of common people, that is something very exceptional.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 20, 2006, 05:29:51 PM: Here is a picture of Viktoria (quite happy) and her beloved mother in law Mary.
Mary was born (with the last name Frykberg) in Sweden but she and her sister married two Russian cousins in the end of the 19th century. The cousins belonged to the noble family Zoubkoff and were both very rich. During the Russian revolution they were killed and Mary and her youngest son Alexander (Sascha) fled to Sweden were they stayed for some years, before moving to Germany. The first time Sascha met Viktoria was in a tennis match – Viktoria at once fell in love with the young Russian man.

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/VM.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 21, 2006, 08:54:49 AM: I read somewhere that she was really scatterbrained....the atrocious writing seems to confirm that....
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 21, 2006, 01:07:56 PM: lol, yes it does doesn't it! Does anyone have any more information about the auction of her belongings not long before she died?How awful! I think i read their was a tea set that had belonged to Vicky that was sold?? I wonder if her family purchased much? Was Sophie or Mossy supportive? I would be suprised if they weren't. Shame really.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 21, 2006, 06:59:38 PM: Quote
Was Sophie or Mossy supportive? I would be suprised if they weren't. Shame really.

One wonders what role they may have played. Did they try to talk Moretta out of her disastrous second marriage?

Also, anyone know what happened to Zoubkov after Moretta's death. I read somewhere that he died in 1936, he would have only been about 35 years old then....
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2006, 08:27:11 PM: From The Great Hohenzollern Scandal--the book about the marriage:

''Most of the more precious and historic objects went to a Swiss dealer, but the British buyers acquired the old English silver that had once been the property of Queen Victoria...The next day saw the sale of furniture, china and glass, most of it gifts from the Prince Consort...from Queen Victoria and from Empress Victoria...Among the pictures were...a Winterhalter. The furniture was from the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the marble fireplaces originated from the Prussian and English castles and each object bore the official stamp of the various palaces from which it came....A few relations of the Princess attended. Prince Adolph's brother bid fro the Schuamburg family pieces, the Prince of Wied bougth things connected with the history of the family. And it was an open secret that the ex-Kaiser, through a middleman, had acquired a set of silver cups and saucers, once a wedding present to....[their] father, and paid 35,000 marks for it. Most of the deficit between the debts and the auction receipts was made up by Vicky's own relations and eventually everyone was paid in full."
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2006, 08:33:11 PM: Quote
I will soon publish a very late letter written by Viktoria (from 21/6 – 1929) where she writes to her “darling Mamushka” – her mother in law – Mary. The letter is written in Schloss Friedrichshof were she lived her last days (she died 13/11- 1929). She writes about how much she misses both Mary and Sascha, and that her relatives in Friedrichshof wont let her return to Boon. She also talks about her plans of visiting England.

But I thought that she died in Bonn? That's what was in the papers and her obituaries. :-/ Also in the book it says that as well and reports that 'When Vicky's coffin was carried out of the hospital to a special train, hundreds of Bonn citizens lined the streets in silent last farewell...' Could there just be a translation problem or perhaps speaks of her hopes to go to Friedrichshof? She was embalmed and taken to Friedrichshof where she was buried.

The report on her funeral went that she 'was buried in the family grave in the castle chapel. Attending were her first husband's brother, and the Landgraf of Hesse with his wife...her favourite brother Prince Henry, and...Prince Adalbert of Prussia. From the ex-Kaiser came bunch of white roses.'
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2006, 08:42:12 PM: Once more from the book re: Zubkoff's last years:

'Came the spring of 1930 and once mroe he took odd jobs as a waiter, including one at the holiday resort of Esch-on-the-alzette. At the end of the season he returned to Luxemburg...jobless and soon without any means. He had to leave his furnished room for lack of money and moved into a dirty shack in the garden of the house, which was used for storing furniture and garden tools. With what he could gather by any means at all, he bought only cocaine and liquor and his condition descended...He never bought food, relied entirely on what he could beg. Drunk, drugged, he could be seen shuffling through the streets, too weak to work, even if anyone had wished to employ him...Yet he still continued to act the 'nobleman'; anyone who tried to help him was treated with condescension, even contempt.... Occasionally a restauranteur for whom he had worked in the past, or where perhaps he had once been an esteemed patron, gave him a bowl of soup, and in this fashion he just stayed alive...He was taken to the hospital once in 1935, when he collapsed in the street, unable to move. Two weeks of regular meals and a clean, comfortable bed improved him--but only so much, for as the yearning for liquor grew strong again, he fled the hospital and returned to his shack. On January 28, 1936, the neighborsthought the silence from the shack was significant....They pushed open the flimsy door to find him dead on the floor, little more than a skeleton. He had clearly fallen out of his camp bed many hours previously and had been unable to get back...It was the unlovely end of an unlovely man.'
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2006, 09:12:07 PM: Quote
Thank you for your comments and your interest!
Here is a picture of Viktoria (quite happy) and her beloved mother in law Mary.
Mary was born (with the last name Frykberg) in Sweden but she and her sister married two Russian cousins in the end of the 19th century. The cousins belonged to the noble family Zoubkoff and were both very rich. During the Russian revolution they were killed and Mary and her youngest son Alexander (Sascha) fled to Sweden were they stayed for some years, before moving to Germany. The first time Sascha met Viktoria was in a tennis match – Viktoria at once fell in love with the young Russian man.

I think this was part of the story he made up--and published in his autobiography.

Apparently he was from a small town, Icanovo, about 6 miles from Odessa, where his father owned a general store. Money was tight but they were well-off in comparison to the majority of those in the area who were very poor.

His mother was from Swedish stock but had been born in Russia and after a visit to cousins there, she came back full of tales about how wonderful life in Sweden was in comparison. Within a year she had persuaded her husband to move to Odessa where he bought a small hosue and open a new business selling clothes and shoes.

His father died in 1916 after an accident. He was repairing damage to his store when some heavy planks fell on him.

Zubkov elevated himself into the nobility after he fled into Germany during the Revolution, changing the name to Zoubkoff and adding the 'von'. He made his way to Sweden at one point since he needed identification papers and thought his mother's family could help. They soon came to dislike him and gave him some money and took him to the station where he went to Stockholm and got a job in a hotel doing translation work for the guests, although this was illegal since he had no work permit and was in the country illegally. He finally did receive a 'Nansen passport' which was newly created for stateless persons. From here he made his way back to Germany.

Regarding his meeting with Moretta, he had become acquaintances with a 'Count Ich'. This gentleman was also a faux nobleman. He had realized that becoming a Count was good for business and that there was a general belief that the Russian emigrees were displaced nobleman so they capitalized on it. It was while he was a guest at his house that the Count received an invitation to visit Moretta. Ich introuced Zoubkoff as his cousin, which she recorded in her diary. While there they partook in a tennis match (according to his memoirs) and he regaled her with (made-up) stories of his background and life. She was interested in his stories of his escape and invited him back.

The book, for which information on his family was given by one of Zubkoff's living relatives, states that he only had a brother and his mother died in the early 1920s. He had used visiting his mother as a pretext to get money from Moretta and thus produced a woman at the wedding, who didn't speak German, whom he introduced as his mother. I wonder if the lady in the pictures was the same one? Perhaps someone Moretta was tricked into believing was her MIL? Or maybe it's not her 'mother-in-law' at all but rather a friend? Regardless, Zubkov was certainly good at maintaining his con of being an impoverished Russian nobleman. Sad to think she could've been happily writing these letters and cards to a woman who had died years before. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 21, 2006, 10:35:21 PM: Thanks, Grandduchessella, for the interesting excerpts! :)

What a sordid mess poor Moretta got herself into....What an awful man Zubkov was!!

I wonder if Moretta had a "history" of being duped, what with the "Count Ich" person and all....

And I also wonder HOW Zubkov ran up SO many debts in a relatively short period? I guess drugging and drinking is expensive, but to cause her to have to part with historical heirlooms, everything she had ever owned?

Didn't QV, during or maybe after the Sandro situation, say something to the effect that Moretta was acting too desperate? Perhaps that is a peek at how her personality was.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 22, 2006, 05:15:18 AM: Dear Grandduchessella!

I don’t know where you have gathered this information, but at lot of it incorrect…
For instance – Mary Zoubkoff, died in Stockholm 1969. If you like I can post her obituary notice. She was absolutely not born in Russia, but in Gräsmark, Värmland, Sweden. As I have to go to a meeting now, I haven’t time to write more, but I’ll try to do so this evening.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 22, 2006, 12:01:07 PM: I think it is important to bring forward correct statements about the story. E.g. to say “What an awful man Zubkov was” is to use historical facts in an ignorant way. It has to be understood that what was written around the world in articles about the affair between Alexander and Viktoria is extremely biassed. As everyone knows it was not accepted for a royalty to marry a common people, and what was written about the marriage was seen from that perspective. The story got even more exiting when ascribing Mr. Zoubkoff bad characteristics – some maybe truth, but most fabricated. The truth was dealt with in the same way gossip papers deals with the truth today. It has to be remembered also, that many of the articles wrote about Alexander and Viktoria where published in magazines which talked about Hitler as a new Messiah.
No doubt about Alexander being a drug and alcohol addict, but I think it is awful to judge him only after those facts. He was also very intelligent and spoke fluent Russian, Swedish, German and several other languages. So did his mother.
The pictures below show Sascha and his urn.

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Alexander.jpg) (http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Alexandersurna.jpg)

When talking about the the Russian noble family Zoubkoff, it indeed is a nobel family. I guess Sascha used “von” to make the name sound nobel even in Europe, other Russian nobles has done the same. Before the revolution the family was very prosperous. Alexander’s father Anatolij Zoubkoff did not sell shoes but was an anatomy university professor. He died in 1919, not in 1916. The pictures below presents Anatolij and Mary Zoubkoff, Mary at home (indeed not the house of a shoe seller), and Mary’s obituary notice which tells she died in 1969, and not in the 1920s.

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Zoubkoff.jpg) (http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Maryathome.jpg) (http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Marysddsannons.jpg)

More about The Zoubkoff family, Mary’s Swedish family and Alexander and Viktoria can be read about in this article (in Swedish):
http://www.genealogi.se/shf9821.htm
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 22, 2006, 12:03:02 PM: The information comes from The Great Hohenzollern Scandal by JJ Lynx. It seems to be fairly well-regarded.

The author talked to contemporaries and friends of Zubkoff's--the book mostly focuses on him more than Moretta--and got the information about his family and childhood from his cousin Natasha, living in Odessa, who remembered him well. (The book was done in the 1960s). He also relied on political and police archives from various countries--Germany, Sweden, France,Belgium and Luxemburg.

Whatever the situation with his mother, there seems to be no doubt that his background was a purely invented one--the stories of his wealthy ancestry coming from his own, highly disreputable, memoirs.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 22, 2006, 12:14:26 PM: I’m quite sure this Natasha was some woman in Odessa, who saw an opportunity in earning some money by fabricating a false story about a famous couple. It is strange that the author did not contact Mary if he wanted to write about the marriage. Without having read “The Great Hohenzollern Scandal”, but from what you have told me, it seems like the book presents a story with true parts as well as parts invented to make it even more scandalous.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 22, 2006, 12:32:29 PM: Well, I can only state what I know.

All the genealogy sites I found, as well as books like Queen Victoria's Descendants, and people well-versed on royal history seem to believe the facts as they are known.

Ted Rosvall, who wrote the article you quoted, is also quoted on other royal sites stating his belief. He is a well-known publisher of royal books--many of which we all read and cite on this Forum & he is very knowledgable as well and is Swedish. I don't know what he used as sources though--I don't read Swedish. :( Perhaps someone else knows?

It's an interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on May 22, 2006, 06:02:25 PM: It would be interesting if anyone can translate that article to see what it says. Personally, someone one bilks their wife out of her belongings, is a drug and alcohol addict comes under the category of "an awful man" to me. The fact that he was intelligent and spoke several different languages makes it all the more reprehensible. What he could have done with his life, but what he chose to do
with it!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 22, 2006, 06:39:33 PM: Sure. I guess one can talk about if someone is good or bad – but it is a very difficult question, and more facts need to be considered. I have not read enough of the discussions of other royalties, on this site, but as some here talk about Alexander Zoubkoff as an “awful man”, it would be very interesting to know what you think about other people with a higher rank discussed in this forum - royals who are the direct or indirect reason of the death and devastation of millions. It is comical to see how certain people still ascribe more legitimacy in the nasty horrors of royals than in smaller mistakes comitted by common people.

Ps. I have sent an e-mail to the author of the article (see above), Ted Rosvall, and invited him to comment our discussion. Let’s see if he accepts.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 22, 2006, 07:18:58 PM: Quote
E.g. to say “What an awful man Zubkov was” is to use historical facts in an ignorant way.
No doubt about Alexander being a drug and alcohol addict, but I think it is awful to judge him only after those facts. He was also very intelligent

Pardon me, Sebran, but a man who cons a lonely, elderly widow out of ALL of her money, virtually shaming her to death, and who abuses drugs in such a way that he is dead from it by age 35, I think, easily passes for "an awful man". Also, it doesn't sound like very intellingent behavior to me. I really don't see that he made any intelligent choices in his entire, pitiful, short life. He was a user and an abuser.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 22, 2006, 07:23:56 PM: Quote
It is strange that the author did not contact Mary if he wanted to write about the marriage.

It seems to me that the author probably did not contact this "Mary" because she was an invention of Zubkov's. As Grandduchessella previously stated, Zubkov embellished his own memoirs, creating a fictional background for himself....something con men often do....
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on May 22, 2006, 07:33:22 PM: As of now nothing mentioned about Zubakov, weighs in his favor in regard to Princess Victoria.

We all have the capability to be good and bad. I don't think it's that difficult a question. We each make our own choices. Just as Victoria seemingly let him have control over her possesions, part of the blame needs to lie with her. He chose to take advantage of that. Others in that type of situation would and have reacted differntly.

As for the other facts that need to be considered, please let us know what they are. That's the only way anyone will be able to form a different opinion.

I don't think about a person's rank in regards to what they do. I base my opinions on what they have done, not who they are.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 22, 2006, 07:50:56 PM: Quote
We all have the capability to be good and bad. I don't think it's that difficult a question. We each make our own choices. Just as Victoria seemingly let him have control over her possesions, part of the blame needs to lie with her. He chose to take advantage of that. Others in that type of situation would and have reacted differntly.

I agree, part of the blame should lie with Moretta. That's why we find these people so interesting, we are all human, even our beloved royals, who were apt to make the same wrong choices that lesser mortals did/do. Hopefully, we can learn from their mistakes....
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 22, 2006, 08:05:45 PM: I have given you the facts I have got. If you like to use them and others to create an opinion about whether Alxander Zoubkoff was a good or bad man, fine. I hope though, you are aware of that many of these facts might have been fabricated by magazines and authors whose only purpose was to sell as many single copies as possible.
An historian would deal with the facts in another way, and if using them at all to put emphasis on the person’s nature, he would do it from as many angles as possible – not only from one narrow.

To Prince Cristoffer – who ever you might be: Haven’t you seen Mary’s obituary notice published in the Swedish newspaper of Svenska Dagbladet (see above) in November of 1969? I can guarantee that Mary Zoubkoff (born Frykberg) was not a comic-strip character, but a real life person who was born in Gräsmark 1977 and who died in Stockholm 1969..
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 22, 2006, 10:18:27 PM: I agree. Within the marriage itself, Zoubakoff was a user and swindled all of Moretta's money. A horrible fortune-hunter if you asked me. My sympathy lies with the elderly, naive and misguided princess who paid a dear price for an illusion of happiness.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Paola on May 23, 2006, 02:37:32 AM: Perhaps he was a fortune hunter and an "awful" man, but a part of the blame should also lie in Moretta. I think also her relatives blamed her for such a marriage with such younger man who could be her son!! I pity her that she never found real love. If many years before, she had married another Alexander.........
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 05:18:00 AM: Let’s make a summary of what have been stated so far:
1. A person addicted to alcohol or drugs is “an awful man”
2. A young person marrying an elderly widow is “an awful man” – especially if she is royal and he is common.

What we don’t yet know though is:

1. What happened to Viktorias money? Did she not invest them wisely? Did Alexander advise her to invest them in a way that was not wise? Did they both agree to invest them? Did Alexander try to prevent her from doing so? Was it partly Viktorias family’s blame that she lost a lot of money? Did Alexander ask Viktoria for money or did Viktoria ask Alexander to accept her aid?

2. Why did Viktoria and Alexander marry and then separate? Did Alexander love Viktoria? Did Viktoria love Alexander (it seems she did, even after their separation, in the letter I have posted)? Was it Viktoria’s or Alexander’s decision to separate? Did Viktoria’s relatives force her to separate?

3. Why did Viktoria die? Was the separation with Alexander the cause of her death? Was her loss of money the cause? Was it her tense relationship with her relatives that caused it?

4. What about Alexanders drug addiction and death? What caused it? Was it his separation from Viktoria? When did he start taking drugs? Was it before or after his marriage with Viktoria? Was the reason for him doing so his memories of the loss of his father and his flight from the Russian revolution?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 23, 2006, 05:52:02 AM: I think the majority of us based the facts from "The Great Hohenzollern Scandal" by J.J. Lynx. That was based upon the autobios of both Zoubakoff and Moretta, and also from other press sources. If you can shed more light on this would be better... :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 07:04:14 AM: I have got hold of a copy of ”the Great Hohenzollern Scandal”, and read the last part of it ("Acknowledgements” on p. 183-184 in my edit). If you read it you will find out that the sources Lynx uses are far from trustworthy. They consist of a bunch of people who claim they once knew Mr. Zoubkoff or knew things about his life. As Lynx write most people who knew Zoubkoff, did not want to talk about his affair with the princess. His real relatives by some reasons did not. The book therefore has to be read with the notion that information in it could be correct, as well as fabricated. Natasha Zoubkova who claims to be his cousin, certainly is not as she has invented a false story about Alexander and his families past. Misstatements about Alexander Zoubkoff’s mothers (Mary Zoubkoff’s) death in the 1920s further undermines the credibility of the book.

I found these two other books on the internet - one about princess Viktoria’s life and one about Alexander Zoubkoff’s (I haven’t read them, so I don’t know if the information in them is true or false). They can e.g. be bougt at:

http://www.bol.de/shop/bde_homestartseite/schnellsuche/any/;jsessionid=fdc-ty3wcavxlu2.fdc21?fc=ANY&fq=Zoubkoff&submit.x=24&submit.y=8

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Vandfriend2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 23, 2006, 07:47:51 AM: Does the book ad many photos and information ? :-?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 08:05:14 AM: No photos in the books - only on their covers.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 23, 2006, 08:05:34 AM: Quote
Let’s make a summary of what have been stated so far:
2. A young person marrying an elderly widow is “an awful man” – especially if she is royal and he is common.

I don't think this is what anyone stated, although it was shocking in Moretta's time and among her social peers. What made him "awful" was the fact that he squandered all of her money, causing her to spend the last part of her life in poverty. If it had been a real romance and he had treated her with kindness and caring, I'm sure this story would have played out differently.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 08:09:13 AM: It is interesting that you can be sure about that, when regarding all obstacles a marriage between a common man and an elderly royal woman created in those years.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 23, 2006, 09:25:49 AM: Well it must be understandable that even today when a younger man go for a wealthy elderly lady, it was fawn upon. The power goes to the younger partner who share the wealth and previledge of the elder. It was no help that Zoubakoff did spent her money and addicted to drugs. Once must admit the picture did not look too pretty... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 23, 2006, 12:20:36 PM: Lynx also used a lot of archival material and some of the people listed as being talked to were apparently mentioned in Moretta's diaries--Count Ich certainly was as the diary entries were quoted in the book.

I cannot find him a sympathetic person regardless of what is true or not about his background. He consistently humiliated her by playing on the fact that she was the ex-Kaiser's sister to make money (for him to squander). He trotted her out for interviews which were basically mocked all over. He reduced her to poverty and isolation, with only one trusted servant with her at the end.

I do hope Ted Rosvall adds something to the discussion as I would like to clear up some discrepancies and hear what his sources are. We have Marlene on the Forum who is the acknowledged Queen Victoria's descendants expert and in her book (all editions) the story of his background isn't refuted. Nor is it in the multitude of royal genealogical sites created by various royal experts.

As for the books who linked to, I believe the are the German editions of their various memoirs. I wouldn't put too much stock in Zoubkoff's but I have Moretta's (the English editions) and it's interesting to an extent. It has some interesting anecdotes about her upbringing but the book is very circumspect (to say the least) about her various romances with Sandro, Adolph and her last marriage (I can't remember if it's mentioned even). There's also nothing in there, save some very brief (and sugar-coated) mentions of her relationships with her various siblings. It's a nice book though, just nothing to read if you're looking for a set of memoirs along the type that Queen Marie of Romania wrote.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 04:51:46 PM: [size=12]I just found this written by Ted Rosvall, on a homepage in 2003, as a reply to the following message:[/size]

“MarleneKoenig:
>If nothing else,
>it is a really fun and quick read and interesting story. I found a reasonably
>priced used copy online.
It is a fun book ... I also cover the scandal in my book, Queen Victoria;s
Descendants -- and, of course, it was big news at the time (lots of stories in
the NYTimes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ted Rosvall:
Fun, yes, but incorrect. The author identifies Alexander as belonging to a
family somewhere in the Ukrain, where he was in fact born of rather wealthy
parents just south of Moscow. His father and his brother were scientist and
professors - his mother was Mary Kornelia Fykberg 1877-1968 from Sweden. I
have written an article about the Swedish background of Alexander Zoubkov.
Ted Rosvall “

[size=12]You can read it by yourself, here is the homepage:[/size]

http://groups.google.co.kr/group/alt.talk.royalty/tree/browse_frm/month/2003-02/d302e6052a3569b3?rnum=181&hl=ko&_done=%2Fgroup%2Falt.talk.royalty%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2003-02%3Fhl%3Dko%26#doc_44a6b1e76dabac67

[size=12]As I said, I have e-mailed Ted Rosvall, but he has not replied yet. The book in German about Alexander Zoubkoff (see above), is his memoirs. I guess it can give more correct information about his life, as it is he himself who has written it. [/size]
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 06:53:21 PM: I have started reading the first part of Lynx book. And it is all fabricated. Nothing about his family is true. Yes, indeed he had one older brother but he was not a seven year older timber man named Ivan as Lynx writes, but a one year older philosophy professor named Anatolij. All the writing about his origin and about his mother and father is also invented. I hope you can take my word for that – as I have now also published photos of them and of Alexander's home in Ivanovo-Wosnesenesk south of Moscow. When reading further and further I have not yet found one single truth in what I have read.
The first part of the book indeed consists of terrible lies, where e.g. Lynx writes about how Sascha violated and killed women.
For people not familiar with the truth story, only the wealth of details of events impossible to describe in such a manner, should make them feel suspicious about the credibility of the book.
I don’t know why this Lynx has chosen to describe Alexander Zoubkoff like this. Maybe he had a score to settle with him and therefore painted him in black colours. Maybe someone tricked him to do so or maybe Lynx joust saw an opportunity in earning some money making a scandalous story even more scandalous and filling historical gaps with his own nasty imagination.
The important thing to know here is that this book should not be seen as a biography of Alexander Zoubkoff, but as a kind of perfidious novel.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on May 23, 2006, 07:02:14 PM: Quote
[size=12]“ The book in German about Alexander Zoubkoff (see above), is his memoirs. I guess it can give more correct information about his life, as it is he himself who has written it. [/size]

Has anyone read Zubakov's memoirs? It would be interesting to see what he has to say. As for more correct info, that would have to be seen, as he had to have been aware of how he was portrayed in the press. There are plenty of memoirs out there that are full of inaccuracies, things not mentioned, or written strictly for the author to portray themselves in the best possible light. Perhaps he was interested in selling as many single copies as possible also, if the book was generally published, and not a private printing.

Sebran, I don't think the way anyone feels has anything to do with Victoria being a royal and Zubakov not. I think most of us would feel the same reading an article in the paper about young John Doe treating elderly Jane Doe the same way. It's just not something you do. Sorry everyone else, don't mean to be speaking for you.

Slightly off topic. In British Royal books, I see references to comptrollers(sp). I take it they are someone in the household who among other things dealt with finances. If this is correct, does anyone know if their was an equivilent with German Royals? If so, does anyone know what this person was/was not doing during the Victoria/Zubakov marriage?

Short of something coming to light, that Victoria blindly gave Zubakov carte blanche to her finances to do with as he pleased, I've yet to see anything to change my opinion about him in this matter.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 23, 2006, 07:17:01 PM: "Relative of Former Kaiser, Now Working as a Waiter" (The Sun 1933):

http://news.nnyln.org/fort-covington-sun/1933/fort-covington-sun-1933-january-march%20-%200044.pdf
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 23, 2006, 08:57:10 PM: Alas too small to be read... :(

I agree with Keith, unless there is anything new in information. The case against Zoubakoff still stands. He got her money and let Moretta faced the music alone. Only her faithful servant stayed with her till the end. After her death, he still traded his past association with her to make money. >:(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 24, 2006, 08:23:01 AM: I had googled and found the same exchange between Marlene & Ted Rosvall. Unfortunately, that was the extent of it with no more about his sources when every other royal geneaologist cites the other version. That's why I hope he can shed some light on the discussion.

I wouldn't say that because he wrote his memoirs that it makes them true. We have discussed in various threads throughout the Forum about books that are completely untrustworthy. One of them was Alexandra's lady-in-waiting (?) Martha Mouchonow (sp) and the bulk of the various memoirs and books that Catherine Radziwill/Paul Vassili wrote. I mean, if the supposition is that he is a liar wouldn't his memoirs be full of lies? Now perhaps they are all true but just saying that he wrote them so that makes them so, I don't agree with. Even when memoirs aren't full of lies or half-truths, the truth is often very sugar-coated or self-justifying--Kaiser Wilhelm's memoirs were like this.

Still, it's an interesting topic and I thank Sebran (even if I don't agree with him ;) ) for the fabulous (and rare) photos that he's been kind enough to share. I have seen relatively few photos of Moretta during this period (I have her wedding photograph and have seen publicity photos of her and Zubkoff) and certainly none so candid as the ones Sebran has posted. :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 24, 2006, 10:27:54 AM: I second that. It was very nice of Sebran to share the collection of are photos with us...I have a few of Moretta, but none as rare as those shown. It might have came out of her private album... ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 24, 2006, 10:41:56 AM: Thank you for your appreciation.
About Zoubkoff’s memoirs: It seems like the reason why people don’t trust what is written in them is because Lynx says they are not true. When reading Lynx fabricated story about Zoubkoff, one understands why. Lynx of course wants his own invented story to bee seen as the true one. Am I wrong, or has someone heard someone who doesn’t base her/his statements on “the Great Hohenzollern Scandal” say that Zoubkoff’s memoirs are full of lies?
As Keith says, memoirs must always be seen with some kind of scepticism. It is rare that their authors make themselves appear as bad persons even if they were in real life. But apart from that I can’t see any reason why Zoubkoff should have made up false stories. He must have been aware of that other people would bring forward the truth, if he did so. I’m sure he gave his own perspective of happenings though, in a way others had disagreed with.
I have bought the book, but as it is in German (and my German is bad), I haven’t had the time to read it yet. I have noticed though that in one of the chapters named “Cocaine”, Zoubkoff himself discusses his addiction. I think that is a sign of that Zoubkoff didn’t leave all of his bad sides out of his memoirs, but also brought some of them into the light, and reflected over his own weaknesses.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 24, 2006, 06:55:14 PM: Quote
Am I wrong, or has someone heard someone who doesn’t base her/his statements on “the Great Hohenzollern Scandal” say that Zoubkoff’s memoirs are full of lies?

I had formed my opinion long before the Lynx book. It was based on reading such accounts as given in Queen Victoria's Descendants and other books dealing with Queen Victoria, Empress Frederick and Kaiser Wilhelm.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 24, 2006, 09:48:04 PM: Have you been always interested in Moretta and Zoubakoff ? :) If the photos are from your collection, you must have feel the interest enough to do so.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 25, 2006, 05:53:18 AM: Thank you again for your appreciation.
Actually the photos and letters I have published formerly belonged to Mary Zoubkoff.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 25, 2006, 10:40:01 AM: Did you purchaed them ? What I like to know is that what got you interested in this subject ? ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 25, 2006, 07:27:55 PM: No, I inherited them.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 25, 2006, 09:31:03 PM: Really ? :o I am surprised indeed ! So you are related to the Zoubakoffs ? :o
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 25, 2006, 10:39:54 PM: Well, that would certainly add credence to Sebran's statements about Zubkoff's ancestry. :) If he's related, I'd guess he'd know!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 26, 2006, 08:16:44 AM: I am related to the Frykbergs – accordingly to Mary’s Swedish family. Alexander Zoubkoff was my grandfather’s cousin.

I found this photo written to Mary in 1931 (more than a year after Viktorias death), to thank her for a wedding gift. It was written by Sophie or Christopher of Hesse. I guess she knew them through princess Viktoria. It is quite hearty, and it suggests that there might have been persons belonging to the royal families that did not despise the wedding between Viktoria and Alexander as much as others did. Persons who might even have met and talked to Viktorias new husband and mother in law. Or what do you think?
What was the relationship between princess Viktoria and Sophie and Christhopher of Hesse?

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/ofHesse1.jpg) (http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/ofHesse2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on May 26, 2006, 11:07:14 AM: Christoph of Hesse-Kassel was Viktoria's nephew, a younger son of her sister Mossy. He married Princess Sophie of Greece the youngest daughter of Princess Alice of Battenberg (who had married Prince Andrea of Greece). Christoph and Sophie were married in late 1930.

What does it say in the second portion of the letter after, "hoping to see you some day to be able to thank you in person." And before "and of thanks for your kindness." Anyone know?

It looks like the postcard letter is dated about a month after the wedding and seems to have been written by Christoph (judging by his sig. on the photograph). Although kind and respectful, the note seems like more of a formality than anything else. It seems like little more than common politeness to me. However it is still very interesting to see. :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 26, 2006, 11:11:45 AM: Yes but you have to remember that Mary was not royal, but related through marriage. As some would say not "one of us". So that would explain the stress on politeness and not genuine affection. ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 26, 2006, 11:18:56 AM: Also of interest is that Mossy was the closet sister and remained supportive of her. Both she and Prince Henry attended Moretta's furneral in Hesse. :-?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on May 26, 2006, 11:22:27 AM: Yes, thats true.

I reffered to the use of common politeness to indicate that I don't believe the note shows anything to real about how certain royals (in this case Christoph and Sophie) felt about the Zoubkoffs. It also seems that if Christoph had not met Mary by the time of Moretta's death, that he, or his wife, never met her.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 26, 2006, 11:41:52 AM: Yes...It would be interesting to know if Mossy remained in touch with Mary after Moretta's death.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 28, 2006, 06:38:03 AM: Aha – How interesting.. I found it among Mary’s belongings. I thought it was Viktoria as it said so on the backside.
I wonder if Mary and Mossy ever met – and (as Erik-Lowe asked) if they remained in touch after Viktoria’s death.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 28, 2006, 08:23:09 AM: Indeed it was Mossy ! Princess Sofie (Prince Philip's sister) who married Prince Christoph of Hesse (Mossy's son) wore that set in a photo before it was lost in the war.

The answer to the question would be if there are letters written by Mossy to Mary. Maybe you can dig deeper ? ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 28, 2006, 09:27:03 AM: No, I haven’t found any. But still, what I have got are only fragments of Mary’s correspondences with different persons.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 29, 2006, 08:57:22 PM: I went to Schloss Fasenerie to do research this spring and can confirm that they are indeed Hesse jewels ! ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 30, 2006, 11:57:49 AM: We have got some jewellery in the family which was inherited by Mary Zoubkoff. According to what I know pieces of it belonged to princess Viktoria. Some of them are marked with Koch. Is someone familiar with someone named Koch who made jewellery to the royal family of Hohenzollern?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 31, 2006, 03:03:26 AM: Didn't know too much about the official jewelers in Berlin. However according to Moretta's memoirs, some of her jewels came from aboard. Queen Victoria 's present was certainly made in that country and Vicky's taste is more universal (some of them Itlaian jewels). Koch could be one of them, also those could be one she bought for herself in Lippe. :-?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 31, 2006, 01:17:18 PM: The only thing I could find was a German jeweler named Koch (born in either the 1830s or 1850s) who did jewelry in 'the Lalique style'. I don't know if he provided any jewelry to the nobility or royalty.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on May 31, 2006, 02:59:19 PM: I found this site that talks about Robert Koch. I guess it was him?

http://www.royal-magazin.de/german/hohenzollern/index.htm
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 31, 2006, 09:59:06 PM: Yes I think so...Frankfurt is in Hesse. Maybe Mossy also bought from him. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 31, 2006, 11:14:38 PM: If anyone is interested, the book

Queen Victoria at Windsor and Balmoral : letters from her grand-daughter Princess Victoria of Prussia, edited by James Pope-Hennessy, is up on ebay right now.

It's a series of letters Moretta wrote when she was vacationing with her grandmother, hoping to easy some heartache after the Sandro affair. It's a slim book but an interesting one.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 31, 2006, 11:27:38 PM: Yes it was a good read ! Moretta was in England when Louise of Wales just got engaged. She couldn't help feeling sorry about herself and fears that she might end up an old maid (which did happen to her cousins, Maud and Thora). :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on May 31, 2006, 11:59:00 PM: You mean Toria and Thora? Maud made a lucky escape with a man who really loved her. :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 01, 2006, 12:05:22 AM: Yes you are right ! It was poor Toria I was talking about. As for Charles/Karl of Denmark. There was a rumour he was gay and one of the reasons that Maudie had to go to a clinic in London to get herself pregnant. :-?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on June 04, 2006, 06:36:06 AM: Back to the old discussion:
Someone asked me if there were some letters from Mossy to Mary among the things I have inherited. I found this letter written in 1937. Do you think it is from Mossy? I’m not familiar with her handwriting, but I guess someone of you might be. I think it is quite hard to decipher parts of it... Is there someone who actually can read the whole of it?

(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Mossy1.jpg)
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/Sebran/Mossy2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 04, 2006, 07:57:33 AM: Yes...indeed it is from Mossy ! She was living in Friedrichoff in 1937.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on June 04, 2006, 09:45:32 AM: How interesting! That means Mossy and Mary remained in contact after both Viktoria’s and Alexander’s death.
I have problems seeing what she has written though. It seems like she had brought roses to a grave? But who’s grave? Maybe Alexander’s. He died in January 1936
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2006, 01:54:43 PM: It’s marked as from Friedrichshof and signed ‘Prs Margaret’ so it seems likely.

From what I can tell:

‘Dear Madame Zoubkoff

I took the sweet red roses myself to the Chapel & thought of you there & ?? ?? ?? to give you some comfort ?? –I know what a mother’s heart feels like that it’s been wounded like yours only there is so little left in your life to make up for the pain, therefore yr burden is till harder to bear then most other mother’s. ?? ?? you must not lose courage but look forward to the time when you can go back to Russia & see your other son. Surely is must be possible some day. –with grateful thanks for thinkig of ?? 12th

Sincerely Prs Margaret.'
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2006, 01:58:15 PM: Seems Mossy mentions going to 'the Chapel' herself and thanks Mary for the roses, I would presume it was to Moretta's grave--she was buried at Friedrichshof. Otherwise, I think Mary would've thanked her for putting roses and Mossy would've just acknowledged that it was done and said you're welcome.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 04, 2006, 10:28:50 PM: I agree ! It seems like Moretta's grave. Mary semed to have a good relationship with Mossy. Remember when her son married, they sent her a postcard of the couple. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Agneschen on June 05, 2006, 06:18:50 AM: I am thinking of buying My Memoirs by Princess Moretta. Has anyone read the book ? Is it interesting ?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 05, 2006, 06:33:04 AM: Well...It was informative but did not offend anybody. Not a lot of insider detail about her life. :-?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 05, 2006, 09:42:06 PM: I found Victoria to be the prettiest out of her sisters. I don't know why.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 05, 2006, 11:00:37 PM: Hmmm...Moretta was not bad looking, but Sophie was quite pretty too. According to the family, the eldest Princess Charlotte (nicknamed "the brat") was considered the beauty in the family. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Ilana on June 06, 2006, 12:01:16 PM: I always thought Mossy pretty because she reminded me of my nephew when he was a toddler, and he was gorgeous.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 06, 2006, 12:25:04 PM: Mossy herself thought she was the least pretty of the girls, while Moretta thought she was the most unlucky...Judging from her life, I guess she might have a point. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Leuchtenberg on June 11, 2006, 06:53:36 PM: Quote
Back to the old discussion:
Someone asked me if there were some letters from Mossy to Mary among the things I have inherited. I found this letter written in 1937. Do you think it is from Mossy? I’m not familiar with her handwriting, but I guess someone of you might be. I think it is quite hard to decipher parts of it... Is there someone who actually can read the whole of it?

I find it interesting that Mossy chose to write the letter in English rather than in German.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 11, 2006, 09:44:35 PM: I think English is more of an international language even then. She was not Vicky's daughter for nothing... ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Prince_Christopher on June 18, 2006, 12:38:05 PM: Quote
If anyone is interested, the book

Queen Victoria at Windsor and Balmoral : letters from her grand-daughter Princess Victoria of Prussia, edited by James Pope-Hennessy, is up on ebay right now.

It's a series of letters Moretta wrote when she was vacationing with her grandmother, hoping to easy some heartache after the Sandro affair. It's a slim book but an interesting one.

Thanks for the heads up, Grandduchessella. I got it and it came in the mail Friday. I spent a good deal of last night reading it.

I really enjoyed it although it made me feel sort of sad for the poor girl. She was so full of life and love and all she really wanted was a home and family.
She went to be with her grandmother, to try to move on after the Sandro mess and the death of her father, and while there she got her hopes up about Grand Duke Alexander M., only to have those hopes dashed as well. Very sad when she calls herself ugly and stupid and says she will never marry. Although she did eventually marry, it was not for love. I think she may have had premonitions about her future, having told her mother that she would never have the happiness of other girls. Anytime she hoped for something, it was sure not to happen.

Either her mother or grandmother said in one of their letters, discussing possible suitors for Moretta, something to the effect of, "if they only knew her, things would be different."

I think that was a problem for her, people really didn't get to know her for what a sweet and kind person she was, passing her off as a sort of "airhead."

I guess the mess at the end of her life was her one last grasp for that happiness that had always eluded her.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 18, 2006, 09:47:36 PM: I agree...poor thing ! :-/
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on August 30, 2006, 05:34:38 PM: I think the man that Viktoria Moretta married was largely bad; he might have given her happiness, but it was at a high price, too high. She was looking for happiness that eluded her much of her life, but certainly didn't find it. He was addicted to drugs, pretty much wasted her money, and I don't think really cared for her. He at the very least wasn't making responsible choices. She must have loved him, or at least by strongly attracted to him to marry him. I think the strain of it led to her death.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on August 30, 2006, 08:31:25 PM: I guess she did love him a good deal. She certainly sacrificed everything for him--her family (most of whom were angered and/or disgusted by the match), her name, her rank (being known as Frau Zubkov rather than as Princess Adolf), her home (having to leave the Schaumburg Palace), her money, her possessions (most of them sold at auction, including some of her parents's wedding gifts from almost 70 yrs prior), her reputation (becoming a figure of mockery in the press) and, ultimately, her self-respect. I hope that it at least brought her some happiness before the disillusion set in. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2006, 08:49:06 PM: Ah...But happiness is but a fleeting moment in time...

When she passed away, Moretta was heard crying "Sandro!". Was the her present weak husband or Sandro of Battenberg, the lost love that haunted her ever since ? God only knows...poor thing ! :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on August 31, 2006, 10:51:44 AM: About the last post: I have never read that before. I think it might have been the first Sandro, because although many years had passed since that incident, she probably would be more likeky to love him, than she would be to love her second husband after all that had happened. I think she did love him to begin with, sacrificing so much to be with him. She never found much happiness in life.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2006, 08:55:57 PM: I think so too...Moretta never got over her loss over Sandro of Battenberg. The insistance to marry Zubakoff was as much a last grasp at happiness as well as to capture the lost magic with Sandro. Sad ! :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 03, 2006, 03:20:36 PM: In John Van der Kistes interesting biography of the Kaiser he writes quite a bit of Victorias sad end. Apparently Victorias maid wrote to the ex Kaiser to ask him for support for his sister but he never responded. How awful! Did Mossy take in Victoria then? are there any more photos of Schaumburg Palace? Is it still standing?

Thank you in advance :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 03, 2006, 09:30:58 PM: Totally Unfair ! >:( Mossy supported her 100% and sympathise with Moretta's hopes of a happy marriage with Zubakoff. She accepted him (although Sophie had her reservations). When the marriage crumbled and the debts flow in. Moretta did not want to be seen by anyone and prefer to go unnoticed. Her spirit was broken and she long for death to escape the shame. She most certainly did not write to Mossy for help. After Moretta's death, Mossy had her interred into the church in Homberg (near Friedrichof). She also wrote notes and sent cards to Zubakoff's mother (does that sound like a heartless sister ?). >:(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 03, 2006, 10:22:07 PM: It's not unfair--it's a factual answer to a question. Moretta did not go to live with Mossy--whether Moretta asked to or not is a separate question. I stated pages back about Moretta's burial at Cronberg. The point was, Moretta didn't live with her sister after the breakdown of her marriage.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 03, 2006, 11:23:10 PM: She didn't live with Mossy didn't mean that Mossy refused to recieve Moretta. The previous note made it sounds like that. The fact is that she booked a room and left quietly and did not won't to trouble her relatives. I think it is more like her shame prevented her from asking Mossy for a place to stay (which I think in all probability Mossy would have opened her doors to her distraught sister). :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 04, 2006, 04:30:47 AM: Thank you for the link GD Ella, a very interesting looking place. I'm rather confused as earlier on in the thread it is mentioned that "her relatives in Friedrichshof wont let her return to Boon" ?? So was she staying with Mossy?

Not to judge, but Zubkov looks a very sly character to me.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2006, 05:16:56 AM: No...Moretta did not ask to stay with Mossy, she wished to be left alone ( Like Garbo) with her painful thoughts. Mossy would not have refused to recieve her sister especially when she was down. >:(

I think Zubakoff liked her but also saw his opportunity. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2006, 11:47:11 AM: No one said Mossy refused her or turned her away. Henry and Irene were apparently sympathetic as well. I don't think Sophie was so sympathetic though.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 04, 2006, 01:08:17 PM: That is interesting GD Ella, why don't you think Sophie was possibily not very sympathetic? I know she had her own problems but she strikes me as quite a kind lady. I think Mossy was a sweetie, the letters she wrote regarding Sophies problems are very sympathetic and kind. I think I recall reading that Mossy was very loyal.

I remember seeing on ebay, about a year ago, a photo of all 3 sisters in mouring for their father, they looked very becoming! Would love to see it again if anyone could kindly post it.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2006, 07:28:47 PM: Like most sensible people, Sophie believed Moretta is making a big mistake. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2006, 10:35:20 PM: If I remember correctly, and I'll have to try and find the source, I don't think Sophie was represented at the funeral and/or didn't send flowers. WII was represented by one or more of his sons, Irene and Mossy were there in person but I don't think that held true for Sophie.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2006, 11:27:39 PM: I knew from sources that Sophie wasn't there. However I did not know if she had sent flowers or representatives or not. She may well have been ill or had financial issues. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: VN on September 05, 2006, 02:52:51 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2006, 08:49:06 PM
Ah...But happiness is but a fleeting moment in time...

When she passed away, Moretta was heard crying "Sandro!". Was the her present weak husband or Sandro of Battenberg, the lost love that haunted her ever since ? God only knows...poor thing ! :'(

Where did you read this?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2006, 03:37:58 AM: In the book anout Moretta and Zubakoff. I think the only one in English..." The Great Hohenzollern Scandal". ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 05, 2006, 03:43:09 AM: Most probably Sophie had financial issues which prevented her from attending...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 05, 2006, 08:51:27 AM: No doubt but it wouldn't have been too much trouble (or money) to say 'Mossy can you pick up a wreath for me?'. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 05, 2006, 08:57:42 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2006, 03:37:58 AM
In the book anout Moretta and Zubakoff. I think the only one in English..." The Great Hohenzollern Scandal". ;)

That book apparently has a LOT of errors and 'quoted' conversations. Looking back over this thread, Sebran's new information, apparently correct based on his box of photos and all, casts a good deal of doubt on the book. It always seemed rather seamy anyway. Unless her maidservant was talked to or talked to someone, I don't see how her last words could be known.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2006, 10:27:13 AM: I beg your pardon. The last words of Moretta remained unknown. She called up Sandro in her sleep at the boarding house which she booked after her eviction from the Schaumburg Palais. Her faithful maid heard her as she secretly worked at her room after being told to leave. This senario is more possible and the checked the book again for facts. :-[
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 05, 2006, 11:04:34 AM: Well, any sensible person would say that what Moretta did was not what she should have done. But it is easy to forgive her, as she was trying to find her last happiness in life, although it ended up in disaster. I think Mossy was supportive, amd Sophiehad troubles of her own. Perhaps Moretta was proud, and did not want help.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2006, 09:40:14 PM: I think it was shame that prevented Moretta in calling for help. A lot of "I told you so" would have came from Willy and Sophie. Heinrich and Mossy were supportive till the last. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 06, 2006, 08:30:12 AM: Well, yes, her second marriage was a disaster all around. Certainly, many others could see that, and told her so long before she could see. It was her last bid for happiness and certainly gave her some for a while. But the naysayers were proved right, not that it was likely they woudn't have been. I can see shame preventing her from really asking for help.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 06, 2006, 11:20:34 AM: She was foolish, but a true romantic at heart and that should earn our sympathy not scorn. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 06, 2006, 03:28:43 PM: Yes, I am very sympathetic to her, I think she tried to get the best out of life but it eluded her. She was a rather sad princess, but I think she was pretty, and had an interesting personality. Her life story is certainly interesting.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 06, 2006, 08:06:32 PM: Yes, she's a very sympathetic figure. I don't think anyone looking at it through modern eyes (as opposed to the more traditional period in which she lived) can fail to look upon her situation scornfully. She never set out to hurt anyone. Her life seemed to be about trying to find someone to love and, more importantly, to love her. The letters from Moretta to Vicky and from Vicky to Sophie are just heartbreaking sometimes. She was extremely sensitive (so the criticism & estrangement from her family after her marriage, combined with Zubkov's treatment must've been devastating to her) and prone to depression. This wasn't unlike her father's temperament--Vicky often noted how Fritz could be easily cast down by events.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 06, 2006, 08:43:15 PM: Indeed ! Moretta was very much her father's daughter. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 10, 2006, 06:42:01 PM: You are right. It's very easy to be sympathetic to Moretta and her story. She was well intentioned, and isn't controversial. She may have made mistakes, but thy are understandable ones that you can't hold against her. She is easy to sympathize with, but no one in her time could perhaps do that enough, or maybe things just didn't work out.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 11, 2006, 02:41:59 AM: Moretta was too much of a romantic. Had she been more level -headed, her life would have been less unhappy... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 11, 2006, 08:31:19 AM: Right. She did decide some things on the basis of emotions rather than common sense. Her last marriage was defintely in this category. I think her fellow royals liked her well enough, if they pitied her sometimes for her misfortunes trying to find someone to marry the first time. She was pitied for loving an unsuitable prince by the Prussian's courts ( and her brother's) standards. And she never had children, and her first marriage seemed largely an after thought. By the standards of what princesses of that day wanted, she didn't get that much.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 11, 2006, 09:58:02 PM: Yes...Had Moretta got some children with Adolf, her life would have been much more fulfilled. :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 12, 2006, 07:01:53 AM: I think that she did suffer a miscarriage very early on in her marriageand early in the pregnancy as well.

Vicky wrote to Sophie in 1892 that both she and Adolf 'long for a baby' and that she saw 'a shadow of sadness pass over their faces when they look at the photo of you and baby. 'Oh, how I envy Sophie', says Vicky.' The next year she would write that 'if only they had a child, it is the one sad point in their lives and they feel it most terribly. I do all I can to comfort them. May they have a dozen, please God.' and later on, following Missy's having Carol, that Moretta 'always frets bitterly whenever any of the family has a new baby. How I wish she had one.'
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 12, 2006, 10:34:09 AM: Indeed, part of what she wanted was a marriage based on love, rather than just convenience. But she also wanted children, she married, she got her wish there, but she never had children. Marriage didn't elude her, although I am not sure if her first marriage was that passionate, and as for her last one we know about that. I think that miscarriage left her unable to have children.Her life would have been happier with them, she would have made a good mother.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2006, 11:08:50 AM: I am convinced that Moretta would have been a good mother. It was a kind of grief that the role of motherhood had eluded her. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 12, 2006, 11:21:40 AM: I am as well. She was a romantic, but I think she was certainly practical enough to be a good Royal mother. She had a good personality for a mother, but instead she seems a sad sort of Princess who never got her dreams fulfilled.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2006, 11:24:20 AM: It was her unfortunate luck to have a rocky love life... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 12, 2006, 11:30:56 AM: Yes, especially when that was what she wanted most, was a happy marriage and children.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2006, 11:32:18 AM: A simple wish for a girl really...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 12, 2006, 11:33:34 AM: It was, especially for a princess in that era; but she didn't get it.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2006, 11:35:54 AM: Poor Moretta ! :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 12, 2006, 12:31:07 PM: Yes, she was unfortunate. I think she tried to get around it, but it seems she could not.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2006, 08:58:31 PM: Her nature was one of the factors of the tragedy of her life... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 13, 2006, 08:19:44 AM: Much like Ducky...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2006, 09:57:22 PM: Yes..but Ducky had her children... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 14, 2006, 10:46:08 AM: Right, and Moretta had no one later. Ducky was married twice, and had four children, although one died young. At least she found happiness in these things for a while. Moretta was married twice, but her first marriage although satisfactory wasn't perhaps what she was looking for. And her second was a disaster. She coudn't have children after her miscarriage.So she never found much happiness in these things at all.That is the difference.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 14, 2006, 09:54:39 PM: I think she would have been a good mother given the chance, Mossy was the devoted sister that supported her throughout, while Sophie was more judgemental and level-headed. :-\
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 20, 2006, 08:46:28 AM: I think she would have been a good mother, and perhaps it would have given her happiness; although, who knows, as she wasn't perhaps that happy, although she was romantic.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 20, 2006, 09:08:49 AM: I think she would've found some more contentment at least. Her life seemed to be one long pursuit of someone to love her, and for her to love. If she'd been able to have a child, she might have reached that elusive goal. It's difficult to think that with a child, who chances are would've been about 30 during the Zubkov era, she would've fallen prey to Zubkov--he played on her loneliness. Also, she may not have lost her home and possessions if she'd had a son--he would've been heir to the Schaumburg Palace--and even a daughter probably would've had a good deal of income, and possibly a family of her own.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 20, 2006, 09:43:36 AM: Indeed, that is all true. It's hard to know if she had had a child, if that child would have told to avoid Zubkov. Obviously, one thinks so, although that child would have wanted happiness for Moretta, which at the time she thought meant Zubkov.But, would she have listened? I think so; and as well had she had a child, there may well have been no Zubkov. Then, she would have been less lonely, and perhaps had grandkids. It might also have made her first marriage more fulfilled had she had a child, not making her seek a second one, with disasterous results.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 20, 2006, 11:26:28 PM: I think a child would have diverted her desperate ditch at happiness (hard to imagine QV or Vicky marry again can't you ?). Had she married Sandro, she would not have been attracted to Zubokov. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 21, 2006, 10:26:53 AM: Oh yes. Had she had a child with Adolf, she may not have been attracted to Zubkov either.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2006, 11:39:52 AM: She may still have...but Moretta would not have plunged into the affair head on though...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 21, 2006, 12:17:22 PM: No, she might have had more caution.. which would have been a good thing for her.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2006, 09:08:20 PM: Indeed...If she had been more fulfilled in life (eg.children), she would have been. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 22, 2006, 09:27:34 AM: Yes, she never found fulfillment in life. She was the sort of person who did very much deserve that. I think we all want to find fulfillment in life, but sometimes just don't know how to seek it. It seems she didn't.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 22, 2006, 12:40:22 PM: She was shut off from the real world as a princess. Moretta was also very naive...and romantic. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 25, 2006, 08:44:14 AM: Yes, that is right. It might have helped had she had someone to show her how to be more realistic, especially about her last husband. But I think it was just her personality to be naive and romantic, and she wasn't very fulfilled, so she went on seeking things in the wrong places.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 25, 2006, 10:49:34 AM: That was tragic as Moretta has some much love to give...only to the wrong people... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 25, 2006, 11:58:39 AM: Yes, those who can't find what they need in one place, often go seeking it in the wrong places. It is not their desire/wish that is wrong, but rather where they choose to seek it. That is true of Moretta, as well as many people who become victims. They don't have any idea that where they are seeking it is wrong, because often it is too hard not to seek it, or they are naive. Moretta was that, but it is easy to understand.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 25, 2006, 09:03:09 PM: Easy to say...However if you had such bad luck as Moretta. You might be tempted to gamble like she did... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 26, 2006, 10:42:54 AM: Yes, she took a chance, and it didn't turn out. I am not sure she ever thought of it as a chance though; I think she honestly didn't know that it was not what it appeared. And that makes it much worse than if she just took a chance, knowing it was a chance. I tink she ended up the victim of the whole thing.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 26, 2006, 10:48:55 AM: That's why I said Moretta was haunted by bad luck. Sandro, Adolf and...Zubukoff... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 26, 2006, 11:18:57 AM: Exactly, and it seemed more her ''fate'' than her own doing.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 26, 2006, 09:31:39 PM: Well...Had she been allowed to marry Sando, her life may have been happier...Had she been blessed with children with Adolf, she would be less sorry for herself. Had Zubokoff the man she thought he was, it could have been a kind of contentment for the old lady...Yet none of that happened. Her fate was harsh indeed ! :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 27, 2006, 08:57:44 AM: It did not happen, and it was mostly circumstances. I think she did try, but everything went against her. I think she was naive, but may never have realized that. She is someone who it is easy to be sympathetic to, unlike some of the more difficult characters that we discuss. She was warmhearted, and well meaning, and uncomplicated, which are never bad traits. But people sort of took advantage of her..
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 27, 2006, 10:38:27 AM: I am just wondering, When she married, did she like her husband (friend, wise?)? and maybe, she had the same problem as her Aunt Princess Louise, for childlessness? :/

Sorrt for my lack of history of this Princess. But I don't know much of the Germans or the english families. I mostly study Russian History.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 27, 2006, 11:16:23 AM: Moretta was content with Adolf, who was kind to her. Had they had children, she would been quite happy with life. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 27, 2006, 12:08:30 PM: I think so, actually. That marriage may not have been the one of her dreams, but it wasn't one from her nightmares either. It was a stable, successful, if not particularly passionate marriage. Had she had children, she would have been fulfilled. And then, her last marriage most likely woudn't have happened.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 27, 2006, 11:00:29 PM: I agree a child with Adolf may have saved her from Zubokoff, but Moretta really had bad luck... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 28, 2006, 11:16:32 AM: She did, so perhaps it would not have. She was sort of the victim of things throughout her life, even though it might seem like her own naivety got her into some of it. She was a fairy tale princess type; who was lured into things, like in old fairytales. I can't think of many negative things to say about her, though. I don't think there is one negative thing to say, she wasn't controversial, or a scandal, she was just unfortunate. I wish there was a biography of her, I think it would very, very, interesting. I have never heard of one, anyway.I have been interested in her since I read about her story in a bio of Queen Victoria.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2006, 11:28:04 AM: Since she died...Don't know where her letters...diaries. Hard to reconstruct her life without them... ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on September 28, 2006, 11:51:12 AM: It is; there seems to be such a lack of evidence on her last years, actually.I enjoyed what that one person posted in this thread about her last years, it was very informative, and perhaps different than the popular image. Her story is repeated in so many books about her family, that one wonders why there just isn't an accurate book on her.I wish there was more evidence, I really do. But it seems you would have to do much research in Germany to come up with a decent bio of her.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2006, 12:23:44 PM: Yes I think she was related to Zubokoff...and inheited them. However Moretta's own belongings and letters. Maybe Mossy had them ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Ada on October 01, 2006, 09:16:53 PM: Does anyone know why she was called "Moretta"?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Ada on October 02, 2006, 11:31:46 AM: One of the past messages said that John G. Rohl's book on Kaiser Wilhelm explained this - but I have read that book (had to special order it from the library) and don't remember seeing anything about it.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 02, 2006, 09:50:22 PM: Good to find out...I will reread my sourses again tonite. :o
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 03, 2006, 11:37:46 AM: I don't think that name was given her at birth or was it? It might have been, but I think it was more of a nickname. It wasn't like Victoria Melita, who was given her second name at birth.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 12:04:05 PM: Lets find out togather :D
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 05, 2006, 11:05:06 AM: I know.. but were would I find out? Moretta is so easy to be interested in and yet to pity as well. I am not sure she would have wanted that, but I can't imagine she ever thought of herself as a strong person. Does anyone really know what her outlook on life was? Wasn't it kind of dark?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2006, 09:59:08 PM: It was a bit dark...Especially after the failed bit to marry Sandro...She was very bitter about it. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 06, 2006, 09:18:39 AM: You can't blame her. But I did think her outlook on life was a bit dark, you are correct. But it is easy to understand why she would have been bitter, if you were human you would have been as well. Many people who should have let that marriage happen, didn't. It might have seemed foolish, but it would have made her happy.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2006, 09:59:02 AM: It was her first love... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 06, 2006, 12:24:41 PM: It was, and perhaps she never loved as much again. ??? I am not sure, but perhaps that was a consideration even if later she did love her last husband and it ended up a disaster?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2006, 10:26:09 PM: Yes...Moretta want to recapture that lost magic... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 09, 2006, 08:53:43 AM: She did, but she never found it. I think you can sometimes recapture the past, ( I have tried), but it is often wiser to live in the present and deal with the realities of today rather than things you lost you still wish you had. It just doesn't work to spend your life seeking any kind of '' lost magic''. But like Moretta, it is often hard not to, and it's easy to understand why she did.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2006, 09:26:17 PM: To her Zubokoff was her "last bid" for happiness. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 10, 2006, 11:46:01 AM: Yes, he was to Moretta her last bid for happiness. That is how people, in my view, often see such things. They take whatever as their last bid for happiness, without realizing there are other forms of happiness, or there is something that might make them happy in the future. Moretta never got her happiness in the future, although she always searched for and wanted it. Her last bid for happiness only wounded her, alas. I once took something as my last bid for happiness, without realizing that it wasn't. This forum makes me as happy or almost as happy as that once did. It is very sad that Morettasa never found her happiness, though. :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2006, 04:00:14 AM: Yes...although I would love to think that Moretta did have some lovely moments with Zubokoff before the truth was revealed to her... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 11, 2006, 09:00:40 AM: She most likely did have moments of happiness with him. Indeed, according the letters/photos posted last spring, she did, and she seems happier in them than in many other photos/letters. It is sad it was unreal, because it so obviously made her happy. But such is life, and especially, such was her life.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 12, 2006, 04:19:47 AM: Moretta's life was sad with moments of happiness... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 12, 2006, 11:06:34 AM: Yes, especially during the begining of her second marriage. She just glows in some of those pictures. She was lonely most of her life wasn't she? She may have found love, but it wasn't always the kind of love that she wanted. Did she have many friends or not?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2006, 02:33:56 AM: Not much...Tennis partners I think ??? It was this route that Zoubokoff got in. Mossy was close to her too. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 13, 2006, 09:19:55 AM: Yes, the information you posted rings true. I think she was lonely most of her life, and not very happy. It always pleases me to see the happiness her last husband gave her at first. But then I think better of it, because it did not last. Moretta did not have luck it seems, and was sort of lost in finding what she needed or wanted.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2006, 08:34:55 PM: Yes...Her bio is a testament of her lost dreams...although she did not blame anyone in that. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 16, 2006, 12:22:36 PM: It is indeed; and that is one great thing you can say about Victoria Moretta, she never blamed anyone for her troubles, although it would have been at too easy to do so. It would have been understandable as well, had she done so. But to my knowledge, she never did so. That says something about what Victoria Moretta was like.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 08:45:24 PM: Indeed...Vicky blamed both Bismark and Willy for Moretta's unhappiness. >:(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 17, 2006, 11:24:50 AM: I think Vicky was right in blaming these individuals for her daugter's unhappiness, at least in the matter of not being able to marry Sandro. They both actively thwarted and opposed that marriage. Bismarck for political purposes, among other things, and he also didn't believe that Sandro was well born enough to marry Moretta.. those Prussians. ;) Also, Willy agreed with Bismarck I think, but he had his own agendas. I think he believed in the not of equal enough birth thing, and as well, he liked to interfere in matters that weren't his business and to express his opinion. Do you know what he thought of his sister's second marriage? I believe that he lived to see it, did he not?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 19, 2006, 02:53:50 AM: Willy thinks it was a diaster (He is sadly proven right this time) and did not minced words. Sophie also thought that it was a silly act, only Heinrich and Mossy was supportive. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 19, 2006, 11:07:59 AM: Well, her brother was right-disaster did not begin to describe Moretta's secind marriage. Sophie was also right to think it was silly. But, it might have been a disaster, and it might have been silly, but Moretta thought it would work. She was very wrong...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2006, 11:44:14 PM: I do found it hard that Sophie had became so judgemental in her later years. Perhaps her own tragedies had hardened her heart towards her sister ? ??? She did not even attend her furneral. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 21, 2006, 07:20:23 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2006, 11:44:14 PM
I do found it hard that Sophie had became so judgemental in her later years. Perhaps her own tragedies had hardened her heart towards her sister ? ??? She did not even attend her furneral. :(

I agree Eric. That does not seem like Sophie at all. She was a kind lady by all accounts, very lovely. Maybe she was rather embittered. Possibily she could not afford to attend dear Morettas funeral.

Its hard to be without money when you've always had it.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2006, 09:08:38 PM: Well...I am sure Mossy would be happy to lent Sophie the money if she so wished. I think she was a bit embittered about the whole thing, Moretta bringing it all on herself. I think Willy sent a weath, I don't know if Sophie did as well ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 24, 2006, 11:15:10 AM: It is hard to know why she did not attend her sister's funeral. I think that money perhaps was the reason. It seems more likely than many other reasons at least. Without knowing the real reason ( which perhaps research could estabilish), it is unfair to say that Sophie was judgemental.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2006, 10:18:10 PM: No. I based that on the fact that both Willy & Sophie (unlike Mossy and Heinrich) did not sent their blessing to the wedding and opted out of the furneral as well. It was also noted Sophie was unconvinced that Zubokoff could make Moretta happy and that she was making a big mistake. Facts are facts...Although I know that Sophie was thinking that Moretta needed tough love at that time. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on October 25, 2006, 07:46:34 AM: It's very possible, given the attitude of marriages connected with royal personages, that Sophie simply couldn't reconcile herself to her sister's second marriage. We only have to look at the attitudes exhibited when the Duke and Duchess of Windsor wed. There are of course differences: she was a divorced American which was frowned upon by a large part of the Empire, and Zoubkoff was a Russian who may have given the impression even prior to the marriage that he wasn't in it to make Moretta happy, but regardless, it's a possible explanation.

If Sophie didn't attend the wedding, couldn't it also be possible that she felt she couldn't bring herself to attend her funeral either? Perhaps the event would have been too painful for her, or perhaps she had already started experiencing symptoms of the illness that would eventually bring her life to its close. In any case, I think, considering Sophie was in all likelihood Vicky's favorite daughter, that there would have been ample reasons to preclude her attendance at either event. Of course, this is only my opinion....
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 25, 2006, 08:57:50 AM: Yes, it is possible that the feeling her sister was making a mistake in wedding a man who was a commoner, at least by the standards of the woman he was marrying, turned her against her sister. Even had the marriage been happy, in this view Sophie would not have approved, or at least not have not judged her sister. Royalty could be indeed judgemental about such matters. They turned out right, those who opposed the marriage, albeit on other grounds. I think this attitude would have been typical, and if Sophie disaproved in this light, it is understandable than if her disaproval was more personal.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2006, 09:35:52 PM: I think Sophie felt exactly what you say. Personally, she had hoped for a good second marriage for Moretta, but she could bring herself to approve someone like Zubokoff. Possibly she blamed herself for not doing enough to stop that fiasco. However not attending the furneral or sending a weath (Willy did that) is a bit harsh for someone like Sophie (whom her daughter Helen describe as gentle and ladylike). I also didn't know if she went back later to see Moretta's grave. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 26, 2006, 11:01:01 AM: Yes, I always saw that if Sophie disaproved of Moretta's marriage thart it was personal. But, it did not have to be so, it could just be that she disaproved in the position she was in.Royalty, especially Prussian royalty could be quite harsh to those who married unequally. If the marriage didn't work out, it was no doubt more so. Sophie's reaction doesn't seem, in light of that very harsh to me. I think Sophie was a nice person, but she had her ways. I am sure she always cared about her sister though.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on October 26, 2006, 11:55:23 AM: Several of us have been referring to Sophie's attitude to Moretta's second marriage, and I for one am inclined to believe that she couldn't reconcile herself to the fact, but in thinking this over, wasn't Sophie initially opposed to Aspasia Manos' relationship with her son Alexander? I do know that once Alexander died Sophie did come around and accept both Aspasia and Alexandra into her family, but it just goes to show how different one situation can be from another. It's possible that Sophie knew something no one else did, or perhaps she simply saw through Zoubkoff and said as much to her sister. There could have been a breach at the time of death as well. We'll never know. Suffice it to say that family relationships were possibly broken as a result of this marriage, making Moretta's life that much more tragic.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 26, 2006, 12:57:28 PM: Yes, sitiuation could have been different when considering her sister's marriage. I think she did see through Zoubkoff, as well as condemning the marriage ( as she undoubtedly did) on the grounds of unequal birth. I think many people saw through Moretta's choice of husband, but whatever they said could not shake her. Her family was right to disaprove as it turned out, but Moretta may have felt in the end the alienation that had been forced on through her own actions. Ironically, she had been lonely seeking company, seeking love, and that led her to alienate many people through her choice of spouse. If Sophie felt bitter or disaproved, that is understandable. She may not have known of the compassion Moretta needed.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on October 26, 2006, 01:42:01 PM: It sounds like the case of Alexander Battenberg all over again....she couldn't have him since her grandfather and brother disapproved, so maybe she wasn't going to allow anyone to stand in her way this time.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2006, 09:58:44 PM: Yes...Especially since Willy was the opposing force again, however this time as he was abdicated as Emperor and the fact that Moretta was married out of the Prussian Royal Family, technically Moretta was out of his justidiction. The situation was Sophie was harder to tell as the three sisters were very close (Moretta, Mossy and Sophie). Mossy was the most supportive one and less vindictive (she sent postcards and letters to Zubokoff's mother even after Moretta's death). ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 27, 2006, 09:19:39 AM: Yes, it is being forgiving to send letters and postcards to people who might have given her sister some happiness, but who also walked all over her, and destroyed her life. That is not to say, though, that Zoubkoff's family were bad just because of him. But, he was bad.Zoubkoff was indeed in some ways a repeat of Alexander, yes. Both were unsuitable or regarded as so, and were somewhat unstable. Of the two, though Alexander of Battenberg seems a bit better to me, at least. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2006, 10:24:05 PM: Mossy did have a big heart and supported her sister beyond the lines of duty. It was Sophie's silence that seemed to hurt. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 30, 2006, 01:07:39 PM: Yes, I am sure her silence perhaps hurt Moretta.But maybe Moretta expected it, as well, because surely she could understand typical Prussian royal reactions to things like that. Perhaps she could also understand how wise her relatives had been in warning her about the marriage. Perhaps she understood, better than we know, what Sophie's reaction was, so that it didn't hurt as much. But perhaps she was just dejected, and didn't think about her sister's silemce either.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on October 30, 2006, 02:22:50 PM: Hahaha.... Very funny
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2006, 06:22:29 PM: Why it it funny ??? ???

I felt it sad that one sister rejected another just because of a marriage partne... :( :( :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on October 31, 2006, 09:00:55 AM: Well, not exactly rejected her sister, but perhaps disaproved quite strongly would be a better phrase. It isn't funny, but I feel there is much truth in our assertations that can be proved. Otherwise, we are just guessing about motives that we are not sure of, that could have compelled Sophie's actions that we are sure of. So we know something, and speculation is fun, even when it is about something rather serious.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 31, 2006, 09:10:21 AM: Agreed...although the subject is not funny... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 01, 2006, 01:06:16 PM: Back to Moretta: Can someone post some more photos of her in youth? I think she was so lovely then, although perhaps in a uncoventional way. Her first marriage was a conventional royal one, and it was no doubt not all satisfying. If she had married Sandro she might have been more satisfied. But, I think she was just happy to marry anybody, even a rather dull German prince like Adolf. What did he feel about her anyway? Was he just happy at making a conventional match?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 01, 2006, 05:42:30 PM: Adolph seems to have loved her and beencontent with the marriage. He seems a pretty uncomplicated soul.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2006, 05:46:11 PM: I agree...that is how Moretta felt too. After all the drama of Sandro, it was a blessing. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 02, 2006, 10:54:53 AM: Indeed, it seems Adolf was pretty typical of a minor German Prince, and that he loved her in his own way. It was a good marriage for him, as he was minor royalty, and she was a Prussian princess. He was content with the type of marriage so many royals had, although it may not have fulfilled Moretta's wishes completely of a dream marriage. There is more to say about Moretta than you could say about Adolf.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2006, 08:20:42 PM: If he could have lived longer, it would have been a blessing to Moretta. His death left her rich,but valnerable and unprotected. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2006, 10:39:49 AM: Yes, it did. I think Moretta would not have known as much happiness had he lived, although she would not have known as many bad things as well. Moretta would have been secure but perhaps unfulfilled, which she found in Zoubkoff for a while, before things started going wrong. But the happiness she had was not worth the sorrow, I would think. Adolf was pretty boring, I guess. What was his favorite pastimes?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2006, 10:48:37 PM: I believe shooting & swimming. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: jfkhaos on November 04, 2006, 12:53:26 AM: Although a long shot, was there any kind of Court Circular of the Schaumburg-Lippe family? I am extremely intereted in Moretta and wonder if there is any other source of information for Moretta.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 06, 2006, 08:57:14 AM: Those sound like the typical pastimes of a German prince of his rank. Did Moretta like swimming at all? I have read she liked tennis somewhere in this thread, did Adolf also like that? Royalty of that day sometimes did. Anyway, I am sure there is more information on Moretta out there, it just might be hard to find. She is usually mentioned in biographies of her family quite a bit.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marc on November 06, 2006, 04:12:09 PM: Is there any portrait of her other than one painted by Vicky?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 06, 2006, 07:53:15 PM: Quote from: Angie_H on December 18, 2004, 09:54:19 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/VictoriaofPrussiabyAngeli.jpg)
Victoria by Heinrich von Angeli

This was on page one of the thread. I've seen at least 3 other portraits--another by Vicky, one by Lenbach and another by von Angeli (I think).
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2006, 08:31:14 PM: It is a beautiful portrait. I wonder where it is right now ? in private or public collections ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 12:54:06 PM: Moretta had such lovely colouring, which is something that comes across in her portraits, but not in her photos which make her look plain. But, in youth, her colouring was lovely, and I think she was pretty in her own way, which was maybe a bit sad, at least in that portrait she does.Does anyone think she looks melancholy or at best wistful in that photo?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2006, 07:49:08 PM: Yes...Although sadly that look really becomes her. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marc on November 07, 2006, 08:03:05 PM: Thank you GDElla,I missed it! :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2006, 08:23:40 PM: I wonder were there ever an exhibition in Germany of Von Angeli paintings ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 08, 2006, 12:48:40 PM: The sad look does indeed become Moretta, I agree. I think she must have laughed in youth, and been happy, but her youth was more overshadowed by the Sandro affair than not, and whatever her native personality, this made her melancholy, etc. She may not have always looked sad, or even wistful/sad as she does here, but this portrait captures what might have been the predominant mood of her youth.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2006, 07:56:54 PM: Yes...Because of her experiences we tend to think of her as sad. While Moretta was young, she was a fun loving girl too. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2006, 10:58:04 PM: All the photos I've seen of her she always looks somewhat sad or wistful. Ironically, the only pictures I've seen of her really smiling were the ones with Zubkov--this could be because they're candids and there aren't many of those around.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 11:21:34 AM: The face does look like that of Moretta, so it could be. I am not sure if it is or not. I think the expression and facial features look like her, though.Yes, she does look more sad or wistful than most young princesses then. Many people ended up looking more serious in photos than they really were, because of the fact of photograohy then. But it seems with Moretta it might not have been just that that made her melancholy. Zoubkoff truly made her happy, because he was such a change no doubt from the people she knew, and she was in love, but it was only an illusion.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 09, 2006, 01:47:38 PM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2006, 02:36:46 AM
I don't know...It could be Sophie too ? ???

It was painted as the same time as one of Waldie and he is younger than the girl in the portrait.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 03:24:28 PM: So pretty much it was Victoria Moretta? I think it looks much like her, with a face so delicate looking, later hardened by sadness, etc, or age. She had such a soft, wistful look about her when young, but as she grew older not so much. She does look so happy in those informal photos though, maybe she was of the notion you should look serious otherwise, but I think she was happy in them in particular, and that haunts you.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2006, 10:44:38 PM: Indeed...Nobody could have guess that her life would end up so tragic. It was a blessing that Vicky did not live long enough to see her daughter's fall. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 09:55:50 AM: But, Vicky might always have been worried about Moretta, and sort of known what might happen to her, if she was allowed to make the wrong choices. It is easy to make those, and Moretta had the ability to do that ( or lack of luck), as her life attests. I think Vicky would always have been worried about her daughter, as I think she understood Moretta very well, and she would have understood her second marriage, although not approved. But, at the time of her mother's death, Moretta was secure in a fairly good marriage.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2006, 08:02:22 PM: Yes...Vicky thought that Adolph would have taken care of Moretta. She did not anticipate his realy death. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 12, 2006, 04:09:28 PM: Does someone know anything about the relationship between Moretta and her sister Sophie (queen of Greece). I have got a gold bracelet that previously belonged to Mary Zoubkoff with the following diamond inscription: "1889" and "SK" (the letters go into each other.) After going through some of Morettas relationships, I guess it might have belonged to her sister who married Konstantin of Greece in 1889. This is just a theory, but it seems reasonable. Or does anyone know if gifts (like this one) where given to the weeding guests at royal weddings? I saw some pictures posted on this site where Sophie wears bracelets similar to this one. The pictures are small and it is impossible to see any details though. Does anyone have any picture where Sophie's bracelets are distinguishable.

(I might post a picture of the bracelet later)

Ps. I have still got some pictures of Moretta, from the time when she frequented Zoubkoff, which I have not yet posted - I'll try to post them soon Ds.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 12, 2006, 04:25:01 PM: It seems the most likely, especially given the date. I don't know if Sophie gave anything like that at her wedding but it wasn't uncommon. Her cousin, Louise of Wales, designed bracelets for her bridesmaids. Sophie, marrying in the Orthodox Church, didn't have bridesmaids but perhaps had something made up for her sisters--who most likely would've served as attendants if she'd had a Protestant wedding (rather than just a Protestant portion).
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2006, 10:16:10 PM: I agree...It would be logical as a wedding present. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 13, 2006, 12:15:51 PM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2006, 08:02:22 PM
Yes...Vicky thought that Adolph would have taken care of Moretta. She did not anticipate his realy death. ???

You mean early? Well, yes, I am sure there are many things that she did not anticipate, because she died fairly young herself. I think Moretta thought she knew her future then, but maybe inside her, all those years she wanted the kind of thing she got with her second husband, even though it ended so badly. I think Moretta wanted some excitement.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2006, 01:56:03 AM: Yet if she had children...Moretta might be more content with life ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 14, 2006, 03:40:21 PM: Thank you for your answer!

A remark:
Isn't the discussion about Moretta a bit strange? Sure there would have been things that might have helped her to obtain happiness... Still she was an extremely lucky women! She was born in a royal family, and even if she lost most of her money she never had to starve to death. It is strange to feel pity for a royalty, with all the possibility and money in the world to create a great future (but who never succeeded), when millions of people in Germany (and other countries) in those years suffered from the causes of maltreatment by their government! Even more as, Moretta's and her family's properties would have done a lot more good if they were evenly distributed among the German people, instead of being used to buy precious jewels and finance gormandizing. Sure there have existed royal people who were not happy in their life, but sure the fate of the millions of people starving is not in any sense comparable to the life of those royals.

It is ridiculous to pity someone born with a golden spoon in her mouth, when others are born to the immediate death of starvation!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2006, 08:24:04 PM: Well...We live in a very different world than that of Moretta. During her time, a woman of her status was deemed worthy of only getting married and having children. This is even more true about princesses born of the Prussian Royal Family. Moretta's mother Vicky tried to make a difference in setting up nursing, training and education for women and charities. However much of the social reform that she tried to push forward was vetoed by the likes of Bismark. Moretta wasn't even educated as intensely as her mother was (under Prince Albert), so she just did what she was expected to do (Hell...she cannot even marry the man she loved). Of course they are woman that do the extra mile for the poor like Moretta's cousin Ella (Grand Duchess Serge of Russia), but they were far from being the norm. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 15, 2006, 12:40:15 PM: Quote from: Sebran on November 14, 2006, 03:40:21 PM

Isn't the discussion about Moretta a bit strange? Sure there would have been things that might have helped her to obtain happiness... Still she was an extremely lucky women! She was born in a royal family, and even if she lost most of her money she never had to starve to death. It is strange to feel pity for a royalty, with all the possibility and money in the world to create a great future (but who never succeeded), when millions of people in Germany (and other countries) in those years suffered from the causes of maltreatment by their government! Even more as, Moretta's and her family's properties would have done a lot more good if they were evenly distributed among the German people, instead of being used to buy precious jewels and finance gormandizing. Sure there have existed royal people who were not happy in their life, but sure the fate of the millions of people starving is not in any sense comparable to the life of those royals.

It is ridiculous to pity someone born with a golden spoon in her mouth, when others are born to the immediate death of starvation!

Are you joking?

So it's strange to feel sorry for someone because they were royal? How perfectly ridiculous!!! Many royals suffered sad lives and they are just as worthy of sympathy as anyone else. What you mention in your post (jewels and money) is all materialistic and not guaranteed to bring happiness. Also it was there money, if they wish to spend it on precious jewels it's for them to decide.

Why don't you share some of your luxuries with the starving in Africa?

"One does not preside at ones birth" remember.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 15, 2006, 12:59:10 PM: Well, I think Moretta in particular is easy to look at and feel sorry for. Although of the Prussian court, one that was hard to live in, Moretta doesn't seem very Prussian, but more English. I think she did fit in, but she seems like she was never happy. As a royal princess, she was expected to marry, and to have children, and to fulfill the destiny for which she was born. She never did, and it seems she wanted to, although some princesses were happy being old maids, etc. She might have been royal, but it seems she never could do what would have fulfilled her, and the way her life was at the end is bad for anybody of royal blood or not. I don't think we should say we pity her; no one really wants pity. But nor should we say that she didn't have misfortunes just because she was of royal blood. I don't think she was the type who wanted pity-what does everyone think?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 15, 2006, 01:31:13 PM: Eddieboy wrote:
[/quote]
Why don't you share some of your luxuries with the starving in Africa?

"One does not preside at ones birth" remember.
[/quote]

1. How do you know I don't, my dear?

2. You have just mentioned the greatest argument against monarchy.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 15, 2006, 01:35:31 PM: Dear, i'm not saying you don't! My point is that their are always going to be those that are better off or worse off than someone else. Such is life! Think of all the charity work they did, all the servants they employed, all the causes they lent their support too, all the servants that were founds homes and given a pension too. It's good to have wealthy people.

:)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: princessalice on November 15, 2006, 02:00:45 PM: :)hello all....i am working on an article regarding the Princess Victoria, Princess Adolf Of Schaumburg-Lippe forr a European history journal and hope anyone with any additional information can contact me via this website or my email, princessofhesse@yahoo.com

Victoria, or Moretta, is my favorite among Vicky's children. I do have quite a bit of information on her from books I have on her mother, but, unless it's in German, not many other publications! i am working on learning German though, my husband and I plan a trip there in 4 yrs, on our 25th anniversary!

many thanks!
princessofhesse@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 15, 2006, 02:18:46 PM: Yes, it seems most of the sources would be be in German. :( I hope your article goes well, there does seem to be rather a lack of material that focuses on her, and she was in my view, one of the most interesting of Queen Victoria's grand children, her story is dramatic although not in a dramatic way, rather, it is dramatic in a sad way, but it does have all the elements of drama, etc.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2006, 10:05:16 PM: Yes her story was fundamentally a sad one. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 16, 2006, 02:30:25 PM: About the photos I have posted:

I have been contacted by a couple of people, who have been interested in publishing the pictures of Princess Victoria and Alexander Zoubkoff, which I have posted on this site. These people have made me understand that there might also be other persons interesting in using these photos. Just a remainder: the photos are protected by copyright, and any use of them without my permission, is an illegal act.

The reason I write this is because I don't want the pictures to be used under the wrong circumstances. E.g. Lynxs book The Great Hohenzollern Scandal shows how facts can be fabricated in a terrible and dirty way. I don't want the pictures of Alexandra to circulate with such lies.

------------------------------------------

To princessalice:

I guess you are going to write about Morettas relationship with Alexander Zoubkoff in your article? If you are, I hope you will think about the validity of the information in Lynxs book The Great Hohenzollern Scandal, before referring to it. Examples of questions that have to be considered are: Who was Lynxs, why did he write the book, where and how did he gather his information, why did he wait nearly 30 years after Alexander's death before writing the book and why did he not contact Alexander's mother who was still alive before writing it?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2006, 08:59:38 AM: Well, basically that book was not credible, and should not be considered as reliable source, at all. The whole story is so interesting, though, that there should be an accurate book about it, one way or the other. As for the pictures, I am just glad they saw the light of day at all. They are sad, although they reveal happiness, because of how things went. Was Moretta the type to be solemn in public, because she was so solemn in most photos, and yet in these private photos, that she might have thought the world in general would ever see, she is far from solemn?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 17, 2006, 12:04:37 PM: Though make sure the article mentions what an odious person Alexander Zoubkoff was!! :D
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 12:32:59 PM: You really think that ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 17, 2006, 12:50:01 PM: Well though I didn't know him personally and it's just my impression. He seems a dreadful character. There was Moretta going along quite nicely (if lonely and unhappy) she meets a much younger man (who looks sly), they marry, and then what happens? They seperate, she's left penniless and alone, is forced to sell her belongings, and dies in some obscure apartment with just a maid present. If it had not been for him I don't think any of that would of happened. :'(

IMO I think the stress of it all probably finished her off. And his early death was probably devine retribution for causing another human being such heart ache.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 12:51:03 PM: I agree that that match was not for her. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Janet_W. on November 17, 2006, 01:38:06 PM: It is my opinion that Alexander Zoubkoff was an oily and self-serving gigolo. And while that may be redundant, some gigolos actually care for their older patrons and end up not bilking them; Zoubkoff, on the other hand, was nothing but trouble for Moretta. Just thinking of it makes my blood boil, and how I wish John Brown had been alive to give this so-called man the thorough whipping he so richly deserved.

Unfortunately, it has been a sad fact of life that older men and women with money, property, or some sort of financial assets are often taken advantage of by younger, completely unscrupulous people who declare themselves to be "in love" with the older and highly vulnerable person. And yes, legitimate May/December relationships do exist, but they are in the minority.

Ernest Hemingway once wrote that all writers should have "built-in sh_t detectors," but I'll take that further . . . I think EVERYONE should have such a detector. Particularly if we have some sort of wealth, and especially as we age, we need to have trustworthy, time-tested people around us to protect us from slime buckets such as Zoubkoff. And even those of us without wealth need to look out for the bottom feeders. For example, currently two elderly women in the Los Angeles area are in jail after it was discovered they were signing up elderly men for insurance policies, then murdering them.

But getting back to Moretta, if I could go back in a time machine, one of my objectives might be to turn her life around. From what I've read Moretta was a kind person who deserved far better than what happened to her . . . a well-born Cinderella who never was alloted the Prince Charming she deserved.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 17, 2006, 02:21:08 PM: Quote from: Janet_W. on November 17, 2006, 01:38:06 PM
It is my opinion that Alexander Zoubkoff was an oily and self-serving gigolo. And while that may be redundant, some gigolos actually care for their older patrons and end up not bilking them; Zoubkoff, on the other hand, was nothing but trouble for Moretta. Just thinking of it makes my blood boil, and how I wish John Brown had been alive to give this so-called man the thorough whipping he so richly deserved.

;D ;D ;D to true!! Thank you Janet. Moretta certainly didn't deserve her lot!!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 17, 2006, 06:17:08 PM: I agree with Janet.

Sebran's photos and information have gone a long way towards debunking the story of Zubkoff's background but his actions, once in the public eye, are still very sleazy.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 09:48:47 PM: I think the true story should be told one day. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on November 18, 2006, 06:23:06 AM: What true story is that?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 05:22:20 AM: The true story between Moretta and Zubukoff...now that is more information. ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on November 19, 2006, 06:38:02 AM: What new info? Is there doubt that he bilked her out of her money? The only thing new I've heard is what Sebran posted about his oirigins. To me, that has nothing to do with his actions as an adult.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 19, 2006, 09:34:33 AM: Exactly Keith! He still ruined Moretta!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 19, 2006, 11:17:14 AM: I will tell you what I have heard about the Zoubkoff’s from persons in my family who knew them:

Mary Frykberg went to Russia the first time to visit her sister Ellen who had married there. Ellen’s husband was the owner of a large company and on here trip in the country Mary met his brother (Anatolij Zoubkoff), an anatomy professor, and they took a liking to each other and married. They had two sons: Anatolij and Alexander; called Tola and Sascha. Mary’s husband died during the aftermaths of the Russian revolution 1919 and Marry and her younger son fled to Sweden. Before fleeing to Sweden Sascha among other things was subjected to a fake execution.
As we all know Sascha married Princess Victoria in 1927. It was a great scandal in Sweden as well as in other countries and there were two major reasons for this:
1. Sascha was a commoner and Victoria a princess
2. Victoria was a lot older than Sascha

My relatives were contacted by many journalists during this period and asked to give interviews about the story. E.g. Sascha and Victoria travel around Europe on a motorcycle created a lot of excitement. No one in the family wanted to comment anything about the marriage though. E.g. my grandfather’s father, who was contacted many times, was quite ashamed of the story, not because Alexander was a bad man, but because the customs of those days neither allowed that a commoner married a royal nor that a younger man married an older woman.
As no one belonging to the Zoubkoff or Frykberg family wanted to comment the story, the journalists were more or less given free hands to write what ever they wanted. The prevalent view in those days reflected the royal view of things, princess Victoria’s and Zoubkoff’s relatives were against the marriage and the press wanted to sell as many copies of the newspaper as possible. Consequently journalist had all the possibility in the world to portray the story in a very intriguing way and ascribe it with indecent details, without people protesting. Zoubkoff’s background was made up in a way that made it all even more interesting and he was ascribed very unfavourable characteristics.
Remember every time in history has its own values and norms, and people who behave in a different way than others are often looked upon as bad. Today though, we would say that the outlook of many Europeans in those days was ignorant and racist; in those days it was seen as modern. Of course, the same goes with accepted values today; tomorrow many of them will be rejected.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 19, 2006, 11:17:47 AM: I think it is very unfortunate that people don’t see how limited the information we have about Zoubkoff is. An historian would never use the facts we have here to try to ascribe Zoubkoff certain characteristics (good or bad). What we know about him come from completely untrustworthy sources. Actually the only testimony we have from someone who really knew him, is Victoria’s memoirs. There she does not blame Zoubkoff for anything, and as I have showed in letters I have posted she was still quite affectionate about him after he had left her. Her view of him might be distorted or it might not be – we can never know. Then we have got Zoubkoff’s own memoirs – we can choose to read them and see what they say or we can reject them without even opening the book – remember certain people are never given a chance to give their side of the story.

When regarding Zoubkoff’s actions, there is not much we can say either. Actually we don’t know if much of what has been written about what he did is true or not. Journalists have obviously given him a false identity (giving him a new background), so why couldn’t they also find up things about what he e.g. did during his marriage with Victoria? And if we although look upon the hypothetical statement “that he used Victoria’s money to finance certain projects”, we will still never now why he did so, or what his purpose was. It could as well be that he actually thought that by investing the money in different projects they would multiply and contribute to his and Victoria’s fortune. If he then failed, he might have been foolish, but not necessarily wicked. As I wrote (see above) Victoria seems to have liked him even after.

With the scarce facts that we have it is difficult to say who Zoubkoff really was. I won’t say he was a good person, because I don’t know – that is the reason I can’t say he was bad either. What I do know is that his life, even if eventful, was tragic. He was a drug addict who died at the age of 34. Not necessarily because he was an evil person, but more probably because he had experienced terrible things and had come in contact with the wrong persons under wrong circumstances. What I also know is that his mother, who according to what I have heard was a very warm and kind-hearted person, felt passionate about him.

It makes med sad that people here try to condemn Zoubkoff. It is my strongest believe that it is not their task to do so. It also makes me sad that the response I get when talking openly about the story (no one else in my family has) is disdain. It makes me regret that I ever posted the photos.

I gladly welcome anyone who is interested in the story to search through archives and try to find more information about what really happened. It could also be a good idea to contact Zoubkoff’s relatives in Russia – his brother had one son Igor (and as much as I know he is still alive) – he might have inherited other pictures and documents that could contribute to give a more moderate picture of what happened and not.

Speculations based on fabricated facts have never done anything but harm. Hatred walks hand-in-hand with ignorance. Ignorance is based on a lack of knowledge. Actually I recently showed the discussion on this site to a friend, a history professor; when he had read some of the comments he advised me that it would be wise of me not to answer the accusations. He said that “intelligent and cultivated people, people who know when something is based on rubbish, will dismiss what has been written here with shrug of the shoulder and look upon it as ignorance”. He went on “someone who is scientifically educated and up to date with methodological issues knows that it is very difficult and risky to use scarce facts to ascribe persons with different attributes” and “anyone who tries to do it in this case is foolish, as few ‘real’ facts seem to exist, and most of it is fiction”.
Maybe it has been unwise of me to write this, but I still think someone, even if not scientifically educated, might be interested in reading it. An antithesis to the speculations carried out on this site, has a very important purpose to fulfil. I don’t say that anyone should try to ascribe Zoubkoff with good characteristics, but true facts are needed to fill the hole that fiction has been digging.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 19, 2006, 01:42:15 PM: Quote from: Sebran on November 19, 2006, 11:17:47 AM

And if we although look upon the hypothetical statement “that he used Victoria’s money to finance certain projects”, we will still never now why he did so, or what his purpose was. It could as well be that he actually thought that by investing the money in different projects they would multiply and contribute to his and Victoria’s fortune. If he then failed, he might have been foolish, but not necessarily wicked.

I could believe this if it wasn't for Moretta wanting a divorce. She had considerable wealth, what happened to it all? And so quickly too ???

IMHO and totally stereotypical but just looking at him tells me he was not someone you could trust!! I think it's the eyes.... :o
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 19, 2006, 02:44:19 PM: Once people said that long noses was a sign of greed and that black skin was a sign of savageness. Now someone say that eyes can reflect trustworthiness. A completely worthless and foolish statement. History repeats it self.

By the way, by saying that Zoubkoff's eyes can reflect that he is not to trust, you say so of many of his family members as well. Their eyes were quite similar - see e.g. the photo of Alexanders father, which I have posted!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 19, 2006, 02:53:47 PM: YOUR opinion!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on November 19, 2006, 03:28:11 PM: And a highly pompous opinion, I might add.

What a pity his family couldn't bother to come to his defense for what seems to be rather lame reasons. If someone in your family is being maligned publicly, you would think their own family would move heaven and earth to try and at least get their side of the story out to the public. They didn't bother to do it in the 20's nor again 40 years later when Lynx's book came out. Nor does it seem that any of his friends made any attempt to come to his defense. Possibly they found his actions indefensible. But then I'm not scientificaly educated. so what do I know!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 07:26:20 PM: I hope of new evidence can shed further light into this. There is aways more to this than b/w in any given situation. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 20, 2006, 11:13:28 AM: Eric, what would new evidence tell us? I think it's pretty clear, Moretta got ripped off it would seem! ???

:) :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 01:05:56 PM: He might have been someone who fell prey to the wromg circumstances, but then he might have made the wrong circumstances happen for Moretta. I don't say he was a victim, nor that he was no good. I think it is generally accepted by most he wsn't but then they didn't know him, and it just seemed the obvious conclusion. I find it believable that he might have been a victim with the drug addiction thing or other stuff, but it seems even if his intention wasn't to rip off Moretta, as has been assumed, that he was a unstable character. I am not saying he intended to rip her off, because we often have good intentions, and then things don't go so well. What seems clear is there may well be more to the story- he made her happy for a while. I still tend to think he was someone she would have better not have been involved with. But, it is true that that the stuff written in books is often one thing, and the reality sometimes another, I agree. At any rate, I was just posting based on what knowledge I had at the time.. I'm no academic, and I don't have any connection to these long ago events, so it is hard to know the truth. I have enjoyed all your posts, though, Sebran, and also the pictures.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 20, 2006, 01:12:06 PM: ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 02:51:03 PM: Well, what I was saying is that Sebran has a point, but who knows? I am glad to read a different viewpoint on all this.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2006, 07:20:13 PM: I believe so...I don't think there is research on what Zubokoff's mother knew about the situation. Surely it would be unthinkable for Mossy to keep in contact with her if he and his family were the monsters Lynx depict them in his book. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 21, 2006, 10:56:04 AM: Yes, it does seem that book was an exaggeration in anybody's opinion. ;) I think his family should not be dragged into what he was, etc. People's families are not sometimes to blame for what people are, and on the evidence, they seem fine. Beyond that, I do know what Zoubkoff did wasn't really good, but I am ready to say it has been exaggerated. There were, as Sebran pointed out, many stereotypes in that relationship, and although Moretta was broken by it all, it was an easily labeled relationship. Moretta's life was very complicated, in many ways.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2006, 08:10:51 PM: Since there is new information from the sourse of Zoubakoff's mother, I think that has to be considered. Lets hope it could clear up some established facts of the situation. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 22, 2006, 07:22:08 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2006, 08:10:51 PM
Lets hope it could clear up some established facts of the situation. ???

???

Sorry, i'm lost :-\. What will new evidence tell us? Ok Mrs Zoubakoff may well have been very nice, thats one thing. But having married Mr Zoubakoff, doesn't Morettas change in circumstance tell us everything? Clearly she got http://ripped off!! :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 09:46:31 AM: Well...Maybe Zoubakoff really liked her but weak with money ? Moretta never did really restained her husband's spending, such blind trust may not have work with a charecter like Zoubakoff...We are all speculating here now. ??? Lets wait for the info to come out. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 22, 2006, 11:08:21 AM: Ok that's interesting, when's it coming out? :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 07:24:02 PM: I think Sebran has that info on Zoubakoff's mother and that could shed some light on the charecters of Zoubakoff and Moretta. As she (the mother) was the only one with info (since Moretta's letters and dairies are gone) and the only bio being the Lynx version. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 23, 2006, 07:26:23 AM: Oh, I don't think my documents and pictures can give a complete and trustworthy reflection of it all either, but of course it is worth considering them when doing research. As I wrote earlier, Zoubkoff's nephew in Russia (Igor), might also have inherited documents and photos from Mary Zoubkoff, or have heard interesting facts about what happened (he was born after the death of Alexander though, and was only about 10 when Mary died).
Then, what would be necessary to do is to search through archives...

A good start to learn more is to read Alexander's and Victoria's memoirs. They can be found on www.bouvier-verlag.de by searching on "Mein Leben und Lieben" and "Was mir das Leben gab".
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 23, 2006, 09:27:56 AM: Here is an interesting article from 27 October 1932 (I believe it was published in Luxemburg Wort). It shows how facts were fabricated, during the time before the Second World War, to serve different purposes. In this case how stories about Alexander Zoubkoff were invented to to add even more hard feelings to the conflict between Germans and Poles.

Don't miss the last four lines!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 26, 2006, 06:48:10 PM: Too bad I can't read German. What year was that book, the Hohenzollern Scandal published? I am just curious how close it was written to the events that it purports to be about. One point is, where the stories about Alexander Zoubkoff spread down after the time they were useful, or were there more later ideas of what happened?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2006, 07:49:38 PM: I think the Lynx book can still be bought in online book searches and even Barnes & Nobles and Amazon's out of print book sections. Good luck ! ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 26, 2006, 10:11:47 PM: The book is easily found online. I actually just unloaded mine based on the information that came up in this discussion.

While I still find, based on contemporary readings of him amongst other things, Zubkoff a distasteful character, I think we've all really benefited by Sebran's bringing new information to the Forum. It presents an entirely different angle to the traditionally accepted history of the two--certainly it's turned the view of his background upside down. The snapshot photos also show that, at least early on in the marriage, Victoria seems to have been happy in the marriage and had a relationship with his family--something never demonstrated before this.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 04:02:31 AM: I think I now get the feeling more of a weak charecter in Zoubakoff than someone who deliberately wanted to hurt poor Moretta. Unfortunately she did got hurt in the end. Lets see if the new info concurr with my theory. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 27, 2006, 07:14:03 AM: ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 08:34:51 PM: indeed we do have to wait and see ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Janet_W. on November 28, 2006, 10:02:43 AM: Of course Victoria would initially be happy in her marriage. And of course it would behoove the family of her husband to fawn over her and bend over backwards to be nice to her. But what a price--literal and figurative--she later paid for that alliance. To be loved for who she truly was, without the material trappings of her heritage . . . that is what I would have wished for Moretta.

The question to ask is "Would this person fall in love with me and want to stay with me if I didn't have my wealth/title/station in life? Would he/she even deign to speak to me if I was of middle or lower income and without connections to the wealthy and/or exaulted?"

We should all be wary of "confidence games," but those with financial assets and/or social connections need to take particular care.

It isn't coincidence that a favorite film of mine is "The Heiress." Take a look at it and tell me that Montgomory Clift's character was truly in love with the shy and clumsy spinster played by Olivia DeHavilland.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 28, 2006, 12:24:15 PM: Jannet_W wrote:
"of course it would behoove the family of her husband to fawn over her and bend over backwards to be nice to her"

Who and exactly what are you talking about?

Jannet_W wrote:
"Would this person fall in love with me and want to stay with me if I didn't have my wealth/title/station in life? Would he/she even deign to speak to me if I was of middle or lower income and without connections to the wealthy and/or exaulted?"

Good question, I don’t know the answer to this one. I know though that Zoubkoff before meeting Victoria was engaged with a Swedish waitress, who was younger than he was – she tragically died. His disillusion after her death might have driven him to search for love in a completely different surrounding. I don’t know, though, and I never will either.

Jannet_W wrote:
"We should all be wary of "confidence games," but those with financial assets and/or social connections need to take particular care."

I think, particularly, that those with a lot of money should live their lives in a responsible way, and try to use their wealth to help others.
A side track: Have you ever thought about where Victoria's heritage originally came from? Her and her family's wealth was the price the German people (and other peoples suffering under oppression) had to pay for having a royal family. Their possessions were the result of the unpaid work of their fellow-countrymen, spoils of war, and taxes; what we today pay in tax to help the poor etc, was then paid to help the royal family. Their richness was the direct cause of peoples suffering - just think about what their money could have done if it was evenly distributed among their people, instead of used to finance wars and gormandizing. In those days the arguments that were used to legitimate injustice, was that the King was king because God wanted him to be.

Poor Moretta, poor Alexander, poor us human beings - poor world. Who our true heroes are is difficult to know. Norms of the pasts have become lies of today. Loved leaders and heroes are now despised and their actions seen as indefensible.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 28, 2006, 12:46:06 PM: The Great Hohenzollern Scandal was published in 1965.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 28, 2006, 03:02:17 PM: Quote from: Sebran on November 28, 2006, 12:24:15 PM

I think, particularly, that those with a lot of money should live their lives in a responsible way, and try to use their wealth to help others.
A side track: Have you ever thought about where Victoria's heritage originally came from? Her and her family's wealth was the price the German people (and other peoples suffering under oppression) had to pay for having a royal family. Their possessions were the result of the unpaid work of their fellow-countrymen, spoils of war, and taxes; what we today pay in tax to help the poor etc, was then paid to help the royal family. Their richness was the direct cause of peoples suffering - just think about what their money could have done if it was evenly distributed among their people, instead of used to finance wars and gormandizing. In those days the arguments that were used to legitimate injustice, was that the King was king because God wanted him to be.

???

What an odd post.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 28, 2006, 03:26:18 PM: I know that facts (in this case not fiction) sometimes can be unpleasant, but please, tell me. What makes it odd? Is it too liberal? :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 28, 2006, 03:45:31 PM: No, of course, you are entitled to your views! I understood it better when I read it again. Thank you :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 28, 2006, 03:57:19 PM: Quote from: Sebran on November 28, 2006, 12:46:06 PM
The Great Hohenzollern Scandal was published in 1965.

So, it wasn't that removed from the events, although it was somewhat so. I was just wondering if distortions of the time, as you mentioned were in the Newspapers, would still have been prevalent to be used in this book, which was distorted. As for Victoria Moretta, she was supposed to serve a specifc role as a Prussian Princess. She was supposed to be get married and have children, with a suitable fellow royal. She also wanted this very badly, and she was the type to want this. Yet, it was thawarted. This has been many women's tragedy. But, for her it was more so because of the role she was supposed to play. Her life was a very fine one, but she shared what is a tragedy if a woman wants this and doesn't get it, that transcends class, espcially then. This, not her last marriage was the tragedy of her life, if there was one. She did have a marriage with Adolf, but it seemed not to be what she dreamed of, and she didn't have children, although I suppose their marriage was happy as royal marriages go.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2006, 07:41:23 PM: I think Moretta would have been happy had she been blessed by children. As her husband died early, she was like a ship without a port, someone without direction in life. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2006, 08:27:14 AM: I guess her royal role didn't give her that much direction because in those days, as I said the role of female royalty was to marry and have children. As far as I know, there was no public duties or anything for a princess like Moretta in Prussia. So, she may not have found her role that way. Unlike her mother, she wasn't overly intellectual, and she doesn't seem to have had any great hobby or interest that might have given her direction.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 29, 2006, 03:22:30 PM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2006, 07:41:23 PM
I think Moretta would have been happy had she been blessed by children. As her husband died early, she was like a ship without a port, someone without direction in life. :(

How sad that she needed a man to help her direct her life. Luckily women of today are more independent, and many men less oppressive.
-------------------------------------

Here is an interesting article (two pages) from Nov 5 1929 about Victoria's death. The author has chooses to portray both Mr. and Mrs Zoubkoff in the usual way, describing Mr. Zoubkoff as former gigolo and pimp and and giving him a fake identity as "the son of a cobbler". I wonder where he got all information about Zoubkoff's background, from a time when he was known by few, from... So far so good. Then he chose to go against the stream and write that Moretta died at a hospital and that her sister was by her side. He also writes about things written in Mrs. Zoubkoff's diary. I wonder where he got hold of the diary?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,738114,00.html
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2006, 03:51:05 PM: Yes, she did need a man to fulfill her, but that seems to have been her personality. The times she lived in encouraged it, and so did her position. Beyond that, she was that type of woman who may no longer exist, but the kind that wants marriage andd children to give them direction, like Princess Diana was at first, until she found another direction. Moretta's mother was not the type to rely on men that much, I don't think. She was more independent minded, but Moretta was never much of that.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2006, 08:22:44 PM: True...But one must remember Vicky had a very intellectual father who encourage her to be herself and interest in the arts. Vicky tried the same advice on her daughters (especially Sophie. Read her letters to her. Very interesting) with little success...Alas ! :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 29, 2006, 11:46:40 PM: Quote from: imperial angel on November 29, 2006, 08:27:14 AM
I guess her royal role didn't give her that much direction because in those days, as I said the role of female royalty was to marry and have children. As far as I know, there was no public duties or anything for a princess like Moretta in Prussia. So, she may not have found her role that way. Unlike her mother, she wasn't overly intellectual, and she doesn't seem to have had any great hobby or interest that might have given her direction.

From 1895 (for how many years I don't know) Adolf was named Regent upon the death of the Prince of Lippe-Detmald since the Prince's brother was mad. I imagine this gave them some public duties.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2006, 01:49:01 AM: Yes...Tragically, just as Moretta was able to sink her teeth into the role, it was awarded to another relative. She did had tough luck. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on November 30, 2006, 05:00:20 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2006, 01:49:01 AM
Yes...Tragically, just as Moretta was able to sink her teeth into the role, it was awarded to another relative. She did had tough luck. :(

Gratuitous as it is when people inherit official positions, maybe it was good luck, if it is true (as have been suggested here) - that Moretta "wasn't overtly intellectual".
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 30, 2006, 08:57:24 AM: It was Adolf who was responsible for the decisions so it would be his intellect (and he seems to have been solid if not an intellectual) that was important--and that was probably less important than just being capable and dutiful. Moretta would've been used to carry out the more ceremonial duties and there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that she wasn't fit for this role. There was family in-fighting over who should be the Regent that led to the problems, not a lacking on Adolf or Moretta's part.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on November 30, 2006, 10:52:14 AM: No, I am sure that Moretta was suited to public duty. She was a very capable woman, and was fairly intelligent, she wasn't a complete airhead or something. I think she just never got much satisfaction in her life. Moretta was most likely lucky to be not like her mother, because that would have have made her disliked at the Prussian court, as her mother was. But then her mother was English, and that was part of the problem. Moretta was a fairly good model of a Prussian Princess.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 30, 2006, 03:35:59 PM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2006, 08:22:44 PM
Vicky tried the same advice on her daughters (especially Sophie. Read her letters to her. Very interesting) with little success...Alas ! :(

I don't think thats accurate :). Sophie showed herself a true daughter of Vicky, especially in the early years. Read Born to Rule :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2006, 08:08:56 PM: Well...Not according to the book "The Empress Frederick Writes writes to Sophie" ! I have also get to read Missy's letters on Sophie's years later (that were not on BORN TO RULE). She did not resemble Vicky too much in trying to stamp her name and signiture in Greece (This I heard from Greek historians), that is why her popularity wasn't as strong as her mother-in-law Queen Olga (who did roll up her sleeves and go to the provinces to win the people's hearts). To me "Born to Rule" is a good book with some good sources from surprising areas, but hardly one to change one's mind about the Queens/Empress it depicts. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 30, 2006, 10:37:57 PM: Vicky did rather hector her daughter about getting involved in just about every aspect of Greek life. You could tell from the tone of the letters how much energy Vicky still had (and what a loss to Germany her sidelining was) and how much intellectual vigor--she encouraged Sophie to take a role in the arts, in education, in health & sanitation and other areas. She also didn't expect Sophie to just show up and cut ribbons--she sent advise on everything from the staffing of hospitals to their construction! The problem was, Sophie didn't share those qualities to such a degree--very few did. She was settling into her role as wife and, quickly, mother and Queen Olga was still the #1 lady in the country. As the years went on and she gained in confidence, she became more of an active force in charitable endeavors.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2006, 01:01:23 AM: True...Sophie did what was required of her and let it rest there. However she did not go to the provinces and see how the poor lived and rousted their loyalty to the crown (like Queen Olga definitely...It was due to that she was given passage back to nurse her grandson Alexander I). Vicky's advice was sound and she understood support for the young Greek Monarchy was due to the good will of the people. Had Sophie listened to her mother, she could be an added force (like Queen Olga to King George I), but she was too withdrawn to attempt. When the storm came, she couldn't do anything about it (but suffer in silence) :(

"The Empress Frederick Writes to Sophie" is a very good book and excellent source to all those who loved Vicky and Sophie. It can still be found in some book searches and out-of-print book shops. A book not to be missed. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 01, 2006, 08:20:42 AM: EFWTS is a gold-mine of information and perspective on Vicky and her children during this period, 1889-1901. There's a good deal of information on Moretta in there but, unfortunately, the last time I looked (since my copy is getting very beat up) it was very pricey. This and the book of letters (slim though it is) from Moretta to Vicky during the former's stay with Queen Victoria c.1890 are a must for those interested in Moretta--her memoirs not so much. While it's interesting in its way, it's an extremely light-weight book with very little substance or insight--Wilhelm looks like a saintly brother in them. ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on December 01, 2006, 09:09:17 AM: Yes, that would be very little insight, indeed. I don't think Wilhelm was a very good brother to her, nor that she honestly thought so. But, its hard to say. He had his better side, although he was never saintly. ;) I don't think Moretta may have wanted to express what her brother really meant to her, which may not have been very good, as he thwarted her marriage to Sandro. But, Moretta may been kindly about this, perhaps. Then again, Moretta wasn't very deep, or insightful, I don't think. She seems pretty matter of fact.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 01, 2006, 11:38:14 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2006, 01:01:23 AM
Had Sophie listened to her mother, she could be an added force (like Queen Olga to King George I), but she was too withdrawn to attempt. When the storm came, she couldn't do anything about it (but suffer in silence) :(

This is worthy of two ??? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2006, 08:57:23 PM: That is what the Greeks themselves felt about Queen Sophie. Had she stamp herself more closely with the Greeks, the rumours of her being a German spy would never have taken hold ( just as Queen Olga as never suspected of being a Russian spy). Missy herself thought Sophie seemed listless and resigned, certainly Missy had more of Vicky's determination than Sophie ever had. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2006, 09:00:18 PM: Back to Moretta...

She was like Sophie too in her resignition. The only one of the girls who had the energy was "Charley (Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen) the brat". Sadly though her energy was misused in intrigue rather good for the family. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on December 04, 2006, 08:31:43 AM: If you read Born to Rule, which has Sophie in it, you come to see she may not have had that much energy as you say, but that she did get more done than Moretta. She was Queen consort of Greece, and was very strong in that role. As well., she had quite a few children, and was in general a good model of how to be a royal consort and mother. I think she accomplished much. But, Moretta was denied all this, although she could have done as well. I really can't see comparing the two sisters like that though, because although they may have had the same potential, or energy, they had the chance to do different things with it.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2006, 08:12:29 PM: Well...I guess Vicky's trio (Moretta, Sossie, Mossy) were more good obedient girls than one to take over a situation like Missy (who although was deeply wounded by Charley the brat...couldn't deny her cousin her admiration for her beauty and energy). I don't think Sophie was a bad queen, but compared with Queen Olga and Vicky (her mother), she appeared to be lacking. Moretta was brave in her own way, clinging to herdreams of Sandro of Battenberg as long as she did. But eventually it did her little good. ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on December 05, 2006, 10:21:08 AM: For such a remarkable and intellectual woman as Vicky was, her daughters were rather pale shades of her. I think their stories are interesting, but they are not as important as her story. Sophie was included in this biography though, the one I mentioned, so obviously she was of some importance. The other sisters lived lives of lesser importance. They all made, except for Sophie rather unimportant marriages for princesses of their rank.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2006, 10:56:40 AM: Of the three I think Mossy made the best marriage. Sophie's husband did have his girlfriends, though she turned a blind eye to them. Moretta's lot was the hardest...Vicky was the one who had the best marriage of them all. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on December 05, 2006, 11:23:41 AM: As far as I know, Moretta's husband was faithful to her, wasn't he? I have never read that he wasn't, and that must have been a plus in an era when infidelity was all too common in royal marriages. It would have broken her heart otherwise.. Anyone know anything more?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2006, 08:14:28 PM: Indeed...Adolf was a good husband to her but he died too soon. Zubakoff bought tears to Moretta's later life (whatever the blame. the result was heardache). :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 05, 2006, 09:30:27 PM: Moretta's wedding to Adolf. The Hohenzollerns, like the Romanovs, didn't usually have photographs of the weddings so sketches were made for the papers.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/img101w.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2006, 10:56:25 PM: Yes...Only Irene & Heinrich's wedding was photographed. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 06, 2006, 08:41:17 AM: Yes, those photos are very unusual even without taking into consideration the lack of Hohenzollern wedding photographs in general. There's the really personal photo of H&I coming up the aisle together (one of my favorite royal photos) that is pretty unique in royal wedding photos--usually there's either an overhead shot of the ceremony (as there is with H&I) or the formal photos afterwards. Dona, Vicky and Sophie (the latter two not married in Germany) were photographed in their wedding dresses, while Crown Princess Cecile was photographed on the way to the church and Victoria Louise's wedding dress was later put on display and photos taken but most of the rest are sketches or composite photos. Moretta's 2nd wedding was photographed--I think some of the photos appear on earlier pages of this thread.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 10:07:02 AM: Yes...H & I were also photographed on the way out of the church. A very good shot too !

Moretta was wearing her mother's lace veil during her wedding to Zubakoff. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on December 06, 2006, 11:28:05 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 10:07:02 AM
Yes...H & I were also photographed on the way out of the church. A very good shot too !

Moretta was wearing her mother's lace veil during her wedding to Zubakoff. ;)

He was Zubkoff not ZubAkoff. :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 09:01:50 PM: I have seen variations of his name being spelt. ::)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 10, 2006, 10:19:04 PM: Yes, thank you so much, as always, Sebran. I have a large-size postcard of the wedding but I don't think I could get a blow-up better than yours. I'll check it though because I think it's from a silghtly different angle. I think Eric's correct in that it's a portrait of Moretta but I don't think it's the Lenbach, that was more 'sketchy'. BTW, the photo of Moretta and Vicky (from the book of letters) was published in the ILN as well.

A clearer version of the one wedding pose is from an earlier page of the thread:

Quote from: Danjel on March 13, 2005, 04:29:11 PM
Here is another picture of her second marriag to Alexander Zoubkoff in 1927

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/2ndwedding1927.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2006, 12:40:51 AM: Indeed ! I think the portrait in the photo was the completed version, while the one in the book may have been the sketch. Anyhow I think the portrait was one of the items that was disposed during the auction. Wonder if it survived the last Great War ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on December 11, 2006, 05:33:49 AM: Grandduchessella wrote:

"I have a large-size postcard of the wedding but I don't think I could get a blow-up better than yours."

I would really appreciate if you posted your large-size postcard :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 11, 2006, 08:33:40 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2006, 12:40:51 AM
Indeed ! I think the portrait in the photo was the completed version, while the one in the book may have been the sketch. Anyhow I think the portrait was one of the items that was disposed during the auction. Wonder if it survived the last Great War ? ???

The Lenbach in the book was a profile portrait. I think this is the Lenbach in the book. Was there a 2nd one? I can picture the other portrait--the one possibly shown in the wedding picture--but I can't find it. I think that it's by von Angeli though.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/img871c1889w.jpg)

Sebran--here's the wedding card. Looking at it, I can't even see the portrait in the background.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/morettaweddingzubkoffw.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on December 11, 2006, 09:04:30 AM: Where did their marriage take place? I'm sure it has been posted, but I cannot remember. Indeed, that is defintely a portrait of Moretta in the background.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on December 11, 2006, 09:17:44 AM: To Grandduchessella:

You wrote earlier that the postcard was "large-sized". Is it not possible to post it in bigger proportions? It is very nice as you see the wedding guests as well!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on December 11, 2006, 10:39:08 AM: My photobucket account shrinks everything. Try going here:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/morettazubkoffweddingw.jpg?t=1165855373

hopefully that will be big enough. I tried to load another copy of it but I think the new software limits the size of photos. If it's not, let me know. I had saved the image and put the card away--I could get it out and try to scan certain sections if you'd like.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on December 11, 2006, 12:05:31 PM: Thank you Grandduchessella! It is an amazing photo.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 06, 2007, 12:26:27 PM: Poor Moretta; she looks so worn down, old, haggarded. Few people lose all their younger-years facial characteristics, but she surely changed by the time she married this con man. In addition to her sad looks, the wedding photo must have caused laughter throughout the land. It looks more like a halloween party than a wedding...the old bride in white. Miss Havisham at best.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2007, 09:05:19 PM: True...But she was happy and hopeful. Too bad it did not end up like she would have wished... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: allanraymond on July 07, 2007, 02:43:50 PM: Civil wedding at Bonn and religous wedding at the Schaumburg Palace, Berlin.

(source Marlene Eilers Queen Victoria's Descendants).

Allan Raymond

Quote from: imperial angel on December 11, 2006, 09:04:30 AM
Where did their marriage take place? I'm sure it has been posted, but I cannot remember. Indeed, that is defintely a portrait of Moretta in the background.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2007, 11:53:20 PM: Did the Shaurmburg Palace in Berlin survive WW II ? ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on July 08, 2007, 01:07:49 AM: Do you mean the Schaumburg Palace in Bonn? Schaumburg Palace was later the site of the Chancellery of the Federal Republic. In 1951, Chancellor Konrad Adenauer moved his office into the newly redecorated, million-mark Schaumburg palace. "If we want to be a power again," says Adenauer, "we have to look like one."
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on July 08, 2007, 02:26:57 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2007, 11:53:20 PM
Did the Shaurmburg Palace in Berlin survive WW II ? ???

Still on its place. I've been in Bonn 2 years ago and saw that palace.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 08, 2007, 10:50:42 AM: yes, the Schaumburg palace is in Bonn, not Berlin. The palace is beautiful and its use as the seat of government during the Bonn years maintained it in stellar order. during the war, Bonn was on the main attack/invasion route and allied troops crossing the Rhine had much fighting in the city. the city had been "cleared", ie bombed to smitherines essentially, and the palace did sustain some damage, but escaped being ruined.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 08, 2007, 07:46:29 PM: Don't think anything left to remind Moretta once lived there... :'(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 10, 2007, 12:41:17 AM: That is true, generally, of most historic German residences. If not destroyed in WWII, they were plundered down to the flooring. Very little was left in good form; significant efforts were made, however, over the last 50 years to attempt getting some items returned, but this has been very difficult and somewhat fruitless. Not a good idea to lose a war and hope anyone is going to return the spoils.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Espella on September 15, 2007, 12:53:15 AM: What was her cause of death and are there pictures where she's buried?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on September 15, 2007, 12:34:12 PM: She's buried at Cronberg. She died of illness (heart-related?) that was basically compounded by a lack of will to live any longer.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Michael II on September 15, 2007, 04:44:50 PM: Victoria was buried at Burg Kronberg along with her sister Margaret and members of the Hesse-Kassel family.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric VdV on September 17, 2007, 05:57:22 PM: By coincidence, started to read those treats this evening and got caught reading them all. So very interesting! Knew already about Moretta and her second marriage which received so much attention at the time and even later.

Thank you very much all of you for this discussion, especially Sebran for his wonderful contribution and sharing your treasures! Very much appreciated!

Additional information which I found in the Dutch translation of Lars Elgklou "Koninklijke minnaars en minnaressen" (original title: "Kungliga gunstlingar och favoriter"):
Translation:
"...
The couple was married in a Greek Orthodox ceremony on 21 November 1927 in Bonn by Pope Atamantov. Zoubkoff was the son of a Russian millionair en fled the country after the fall of the tsaristic regime. Through this, they didn't have much to live from. For a time he lived in Sweden, where he worked as a movie figure and as a representative of a vacuum cleaner company. Zoubkoff played a small character in Gösta Berlings Saga, the first movie of Greta Garbo.
..."

I am wondering if Alexander Zoubkoff was very 'visible' in this movie.

Eric VdV
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 21, 2007, 03:53:00 PM: I think Moretta was such an attractive girl. She should have had her pick of decent men. :-X

http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/object.asp?category=EAPHOTOGRAPHS&object=2904640&row=61
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2007, 04:10:17 AM: The problem was that she cannot forget Sandro for a long time... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Norbert on December 31, 2007, 01:29:20 AM: hello Grand Duchess, I know this is slightly off the main topic but i was intrigued by your statement that GD Wilhelm Ernst of Weimar was a sadist and his first wife was rummered to have killed herself. i would be very pleased if you have any more information on this ruler.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2008, 10:43:36 PM: I think there is a thread on Saxe-Weimar ?

I would love to know if Moretta was happy with Adolf ?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on January 07, 2008, 11:37:54 PM: Based on what writings there have been published about the marriage, she seems as happy as she could've been--that's not saying a whole lot though. She seemed more content than really happy, though heartbroken at having no children.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2008, 11:34:11 PM: Yes...content. I don't think he was as in love with Adolf as the two Sashas... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2008, 12:20:10 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2008, 11:34:11 PM
Yes...content. I don't think he was as in love with Adolf as the two Sashas... :(

The two Sashas?? Could you say exactly whom did you mean? Alexander of Battenberg was never known as SASHA. And who is the second?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Paola on January 10, 2008, 06:46:18 AM: Maybe her second husband, Alexannder Zoubkov?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2008, 08:37:32 AM: Quote from: Paola on January 10, 2008, 06:46:18 AM
Maybe her second husband, Alexannder Zoubkov?

Maybe. But still Alexander of Battenberg was not SASHA but Sandro.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2008, 08:05:02 PM: Yes...but her last words was Sasha according to some book... ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on January 11, 2008, 01:14:28 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2008, 08:05:02 PM
Yes...but her last words was Sasha according to some book... ???

So she could speak about Zoubkoff.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 11, 2008, 08:17:12 AM: The thing is that most books are not sure which Alexander she was taking about... ???
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 23, 2008, 12:08:29 AM: Interestingly I read a little while ago, in Anthony Blunts biography, that as well as rescuing the letter between Vicky and QV he also rescued a collection of letters between Vicky and Moretta....
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2008, 08:07:17 PM: That should make very interesting reading...although a small section was already been published. ;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Sebran on February 10, 2008, 04:01:25 PM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2008, 08:05:02 PM
Yes...but her last words was Sasha according to some book... ???

Sasha was Alexander Zoubkoff's nickname.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on February 11, 2008, 01:31:17 AM: Quote from: Sebran on February 10, 2008, 04:01:25 PM
Quote from: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2008, 08:05:02 PM
Yes...but her last words was Sasha according to some book... ???

Sasha was Alexander Zoubkoff's nickname.

Yes, it's understandable, I just can't agree that Alexander of Battenberg's nickname was Sasha.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on May 26, 2008, 12:34:18 PM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2006, 10:56:25 PM
Yes...Only Irene & Heinrich's wedding was photographed. ;)

According to the new book "The memoirs of Emily Loch" (lady-in-waiting to Helena), she has in her albums a picture of Victoria in her wedding dress. Unfortunately it is not included in the book.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 27, 2008, 11:06:26 AM: eric lowe did not mean there were no wedding pics of V of Schaumburg/lippe; the horrible one in the press is proof. He referred to the tradition/policy that the Hohenzollerns had in place prior to the downfall where it was customary that no photos of weddings were allowed. Even as late as 1913 when VL was married, only artist sketches are available from that ceremony.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on May 27, 2008, 01:11:12 PM: I'm referring to her wedding to Adolph in 1890, prior to the downfall.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 27, 2008, 04:38:05 PM: If the wedding was photographed, do you know if he got any photos of Vicky or other family at the occassion? Love to see any. thanks.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on May 27, 2008, 06:27:37 PM: It just mentions one picture of Victoria by herself, not even with Adolph. I wish it had been included in the book, but it's out there in someone's private collection.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 09, 2008, 01:14:20 PM: I don't think there were wedding pictures taken of Moretta taken in her first marriage. Just the engagement ones.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on June 09, 2008, 05:52:13 PM: As stated in post 483 there are, according to the book. I can only go by what the author says.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on June 09, 2008, 09:26:46 PM: And I guess the author would know if she had one or not. :)

There are some Hohenzollern photos out there--Irene and Dona for instance--so perhaps some were taken just not released publicly in postcards, etc...but rather for family and friends.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on June 10, 2008, 07:18:11 AM: I don't know if anyone has ever heard of any description of Victoria's wedding dress, but this is how it is described in the book. That might clear up whether or not it is a photo of the actual wedding dress.

Her dress, or richly embroidered material with garlands of flowers around the low neckline, has short sleeves, falls in a cascade from her waist and along the gracefully placed train. Around her neck she has a magnificent necklace of diamonds and in her hands a small boquet of flowers.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on June 12, 2008, 07:24:01 AM: As to her wedding, she also received a set of jewelry from her mother. It consisted of a tiara, earrings, brooch and necklace of sapphires, diamonds and pearls.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on June 12, 2008, 07:26:43 AM: Quote from: Keith on June 10, 2008, 07:18:11 AM
I don't know if anyone has ever heard of any description of Victoria's wedding dress, but this is how it is described in the book. That might clear up whether or not it is a photo of the actual wedding dress.

Her dress, or richly embroidered material with garlands of flowers around the low neckline, has short sleeves, falls in a cascade from her waist and along the gracefully placed train. Around her neck she has a magnificent necklace of diamonds and in her hands a small boquet of flowers.

Here's a further description:

cream satin, brocaded and trimmed with lace with a train embroidered with roses and silver; tulle veil enwoven with silver and a wreath of orange blossoms and myrtle
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 12, 2008, 10:48:43 AM: I don't remember seeing a photo of her in tiara and jewels...?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:10:23 AM: Sister of Kaiser, it was a tragic fate, since died alone, completely ruined by her second husband, Alexandre Zoubkoff, which presented itself as a Russian aristocrat, but after having exhausted all his fortune sold their "Belle" story to a theatre.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:14:15 AM: Victoria:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67065.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-66674.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67166.png)

Victoria and A. Zoubkoff:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-68754.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-68411.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67670.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-66850.png)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Mari on July 08, 2008, 04:16:25 AM: Wonderful photo's!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marc on July 08, 2008, 05:13:40 AM: In the last two photos she looks like her Greek cousins...at least to me!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on July 08, 2008, 05:09:35 PM: Were the new images from a video of some sort?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on July 08, 2008, 09:59:31 PM: Quote from: Marc on July 08, 2008, 05:13:40 AM
In the last two photos she looks like her Greek cousins...at least to me!

I also see a resemblance to Ducky in some of the photos, particularly in the eyes and long shape of the face--not quite as attractive as VM, IMO.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 09, 2008, 01:40:14 AM: Quote from: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:14:15 AM
Victoria:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67065.png)

Oh great photo! Thank you Alexandre. Watched over by her illustrious grandmother!!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alexandre64 on July 09, 2008, 02:23:32 AM: These photos come from a documentary, and I present my excuces, because I had not seen that there was already a thread on Victoria.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 11, 2008, 01:29:47 PM: Would love to see it or better buy it... :)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Alexandre64 on July 11, 2008, 01:59:07 PM: Unfortunately there is no English version, and I do not know if this documentary "Memores d' éxil" can be found abroad
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 11, 2008, 04:28:43 PM: Quote from: Eddieboy_uk on July 09, 2008, 01:40:14 AM
Quote from: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:14:15 AM
Victoria:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67065.png)

Oh great photo! Thank you Alexandre. Watched over by her illustrious grandmother!!

Any clues as to where this photo setting was?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Gabriella on July 11, 2008, 04:53:59 PM: Quote from: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:14:15 AM

(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-66674.png)

Thanks for posting the pictures of Victoria-Moretta. I like this one most.

When I first saw it I thought it shows her cousin Victoria-Melitta of Edinburgh (Ducky). I did not know that they did so much resemble.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marc on July 12, 2008, 05:39:53 AM: Well,they were first cousins after all,so...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on July 12, 2008, 08:02:54 AM: You can find several of the photos in Victoria's memoirs.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 14, 2008, 01:32:22 PM: Quote from: HerrKaiser on July 11, 2008, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: Eddieboy_uk on July 09, 2008, 01:40:14 AM
Quote from: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:14:15 AM
Victoria:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67065.png)

Oh great photo! Thank you Alexandre. Watched over by her illustrious grandmother!!

Any clues as to where this photo setting was?

I've never seen large portraits of QV in Hohenzollern homes; was this possibly taken on a trip to England?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 14, 2008, 01:40:22 PM: I would have said the most likely location was the Schaumburg palace. She appears to be posing for the photo. Would she do that in someone elses home? Unless she was staying somewhere and requested a photo beneath a portrait of her illustrious grandmother.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: ashdean on July 15, 2008, 05:44:46 AM: Quote from: HerrKaiser on July 11, 2008, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: Eddieboy_uk on July 09, 2008, 01:40:14 AM
Quote from: Alexandre64 on July 08, 2008, 04:14:15 AM
Victoria:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/vlcsnap-67065.png)

Oh great photo! Thank you Alexandre. Watched over by her illustrious grandmother!!

Any clues as to where this photo setting was?
In her house in Bonn...the contents were later sold by court order...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 15, 2008, 09:07:19 AM: It is interesting that she had such a large portrait of QV in her home. Her greater closeness to Vicky and hence her grandmother, compared to her brother and her paternal relatives, would lead to such a display. Wonder how this was viewed by the relatives?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 15, 2008, 02:06:50 PM: Ashdean do you happen to know if a portrait of Queen Victoria was included in the contents of the auction? I recall that a tea service which had been a wedding gift to Vicky went under the hammer..... :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on July 15, 2008, 03:13:50 PM: I don't remember seeing a portrait such as this. The Illustrated London News showed some of the items and I think if there'd been a portrait as well-known (even if it's not an original) as this they might've included it. As always, could be wrong though. :) There was a lovely sketch of the 3 younger sisters by Lenbach that was sold off. :(
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 15, 2008, 03:38:00 PM: Thank you Gdella, such a shame.

I wonder if any of Victoria's siblings or cousins purchased any items?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on July 15, 2008, 04:28:32 PM: It was said that the Kaiser and the British royal family sent representatives but I don't think they bought anything--or if they did, it wasn't a major purchase.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Luc on July 17, 2008, 09:52:50 AM: This is a drawing of "Unser Kaiserhaus" in 1887:
http://fotocollectie.huisdoorn.nl/HuDF-0050

Moretta is sitting (right) at the table next her mother.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 22, 2008, 07:55:40 PM: Well...I read Kaiser William bought a silver tea service that belonged to Vicky from Morette's auction... :o
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Vecchiolarry on October 16, 2008, 10:51:01 PM: Hi,

Royalty Digest Quarterly #2008-3 has 21 pages of photos and charts on the Shaumburg-Lippe family.
This is provided by Charlotte Zeepvat, who is quite an expert on European Royalty & Nobility.

Larry
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on February 16, 2009, 09:53:11 PM: Quote from: grandduchessella on December 01, 2006, 08:20:42 AM
EFWTS is a gold-mine of information and perspective on Vicky and her children during this period, 1889-1901. There's a good deal of information on Moretta in there but, unfortunately, the last time I looked (since my copy is getting very beat up) it was very pricey. This and the book of letters (slim though it is) from Moretta to Vicky during the former's stay with Queen Victoria c.1890 are a must for those interested in Moretta--her memoirs not so much. While it's interesting in its way, it's an extremely light-weight book with very little substance or insight--Wilhelm looks like a saintly brother in them. ::)

Why were Moretta's memoirs so uninteresting? Was that just her? When were her memoirs written and why? ( Sorry if this has been asked before- I searched and couldn't find it)- I used to post alot to this thread but can't remember asking this question.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 09:46:25 AM: The memoirs were at least partically ghost written. Also she did not want to offend people in her family as secrets remain secrets. The reason was the raise some money since Moretta did not have an income and the Schaumburg-Lippe family cut her off after she married her second husband, who spent her money like water.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2009, 09:56:18 AM: It's unfortunate that she didn't write her memoirs from an honest viewpoint and for honest reasons- instead of quickly cobbling them together for money. It might have been interesting to hear the real story from her, although as some people make better memoir writers than others, it's hard to know if she would have been a good memoir writer if she had written them and really tried hard at it. To write good memoirs, honesty helps, but she wasn't honest enough to take the chance of offending people.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 10:03:32 AM: Indeed. For example one of the chief opponents of her marrying Sandro was Willy, yet she did not wetted her anger and frustration at him (which was real) and instead blame it on a situation being driven into it. She did got some thing on Dona and her ladys-in-waiting, it must be much more that she hid from her "official memoirs"...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marlene on February 17, 2009, 01:32:30 PM: Victoria's autobiography, My Memoirs, was published in 1929. I did not find the book dull ...but one has to look at the perspective. Moretta was in sad shape .. she needed money, and she needed to express herself.

Quote from: imperial angel on February 16, 2009, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: grandduchessella on December 01, 2006, 08:20:42 AM
EFWTS is a gold-mine of information and perspective on Vicky and her children during this period, 1889-1901. There's a good deal of information on Moretta in there but, unfortunately, the last time I looked (since my copy is getting very beat up) it was very pricey. This and the book of letters (slim though it is) from Moretta to Vicky during the former's stay with Queen Victoria c.1890 are a must for those interested in Moretta--her memoirs not so much. While it's interesting in its way, it's an extremely light-weight book with very little substance or insight--Wilhelm looks like a saintly brother in them. ::)

Why were Moretta's memoirs so uninteresting? Was that just her? When were her memoirs written and why? ( Sorry if this has been asked before- I searched and couldn't find it)- I used to post alot to this thread but can't remember asking this question.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 01:56:15 PM: Dull by today's standard. Quite a lot of people here is not from that generation.

I agree that Moretta's life has much more to tell than her book.She was on an emotional roller coaster ride right till her death.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2009, 05:59:39 PM: Quote from: imperial angel on February 16, 2009, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: grandduchessella on December 01, 2006, 08:20:42 AM
EFWTS is a gold-mine of information and perspective on Vicky and her children during this period, 1889-1901. There's a good deal of information on Moretta in there but, unfortunately, the last time I looked (since my copy is getting very beat up) it was very pricey. This and the book of letters (slim though it is) from Moretta to Vicky during the former's stay with Queen Victoria c.1890 are a must for those interested in Moretta--her memoirs not so much. While it's interesting in its way, it's an extremely light-weight book with very little substance or insight--Wilhelm looks like a saintly brother in them. ::)

Why were Moretta's memoirs so uninteresting? Was that just her? When were her memoirs written and why? ( Sorry if this has been asked before- I searched and couldn't find it)- I used to post alot to this thread but can't remember asking this question.

I said they were interesting in their way, meaning for an enjoyable read they are fine. I wouldn't use them as a factual standard for how things really were though. It's entertainment value versus factual relevance. I enjoyed them personally.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2009, 10:31:39 PM: Yes, I was judging them by how much insight they give into real events- not that I've read them. Did Moretta really want to express herself, or just wanted money? Seems it was likely money, not that one can fault her. Her second husband was a jerk who spent her fortune. I hope I haven't asked this before ( I hate to repeat myself) but what were Moretta's feelings towards Johanna Losinger, who Sandro eventually married falling in love with her and out of love with Moretta? Was Moretta bitter about or towards Johanna?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 18, 2009, 10:33:20 AM: I think by the time, Moretta had given up hope since her brother was dead set against her marriage to Sandro.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Kate Zuibkoff on February 20, 2009, 01:26:25 AM: Hello! I registered in the forum to write a personal message to Sebran, by I can't manage to send it! MAybe there is a bug but when I press SEND the page returns to the write-in form.
I hope Sebran will find my message here.
========
Hello Sebran!

I found this forum and your posts when searching the Web for infos about my family's history.
My name is Ekaterina Zubkova and I am grand-daughter to Anatoliy Zubkov who was Alexander Zu bkov's brother. From your posts I understood that you are a descendant to Mary, Alexander's mother, but I did not really find the relation degree. I wonder if you are my Swedish distant relative?!
If you are interested, please send me an e-mail and I will be happy to share the information about my family and what I know about Zubkov's adventure, to send you my parents' and grandparents' family photoes. It would be really great if we could exchange what we know about the whole story.

Sincerely,
Kate vvkate@mail.ru
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Svetabel on December 16, 2009, 09:47:56 AM: Quote from: Eric_Lowe on June 12, 2008, 10:48:43 AM
I don't remember seeing a photo of her in tiara and jewels...?

Here's Viktoria in tiara and in jewels. Photo of 1908 year

(http://i45.tinypic.com/xnb4td.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2564wom.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on December 30, 2009, 11:04:58 AM: This was mistakingly listed as Charly on the Hessen State Archive
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/kids/moretta568.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 01:50:36 PM: They sometimes do. They also mixed up Charly with Sophie of Greece, Moretta's sister.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Yseult on December 30, 2009, 02:41:51 PM: Quote from: Svetabel on December 16, 2009, 09:47:56 AM
Quote from: Eric_Lowe on June 12, 2008, 10:48:43 AM
I don't remember seeing a photo of her in tiara and jewels...?

Here's Viktoria in tiara and in jewels. Photo of 1908 year

The first one is new for me, Sveta. Not the second one, obviously from the same session, but the first one...I like it so much.

My favourite pic of Moretta:

(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/wennichtanzenwill/Moretta-2.jpg)

;)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 12, 2010, 08:56:22 AM: Toddler Moretta

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2hhoy0z.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 12, 2010, 09:06:11 AM: She doesn't look like a happy child does she ?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 12, 2010, 10:12:14 AM: You cannot judge the happiness of a victorian era child based on a staged photo. Few photos of the era showed "happy" faces on anyone, due to the technology requirements and the social tone of the day. What we see in this photo is not a relevant indicator of her demeanor.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Kalafrana on May 12, 2010, 10:22:10 AM: In this particular picture, Moretta looks bored and restless more than anythin. Not surprising, given that she's probably spent the last half-hour being told to keep still.

Ann
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 12, 2010, 10:45:56 AM: if you can see her right hand, looks blurry, sign that she was kind of anxious and impatient to finish the photoshoot!
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Veronica on May 12, 2010, 02:44:05 PM: It also looks like she is holding someone's hand with her left one, under the curtain...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 12, 2010, 06:09:53 PM: I think she moved (how many children do you know that can't stand still lol)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 13, 2010, 01:26:27 PM: It took a long time in these sessions. Once the box Kodak cameras became fashionable. More smiling faces and snap shots began to appear in the albums.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Gabriella on January 14, 2011, 06:49:24 AM: In her áutobiography "Was mir das Leben gab - und nahm" Viktoria-Moretta wrote she was a close friend of Grandduchess Elizabeth (Ella). Does anybody know whether they met when they were adults? Or if they exchanged letters?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2011, 08:15:20 AM: I think that they knew each other from very early stages of their lives since their mothers were sisters and both lived in Germany,plus in regularly gatherings by their grandmother Queen Victoria in Britain...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2011, 01:21:54 PM: I think she was closer to the Coburg sisters (Missy & Ducky) than the Hesse ones. She did not talk about them in her autobiography.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Aliss_Kande on November 26, 2012, 10:26:09 PM: http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/2903458/princess-victoria-princess-sophie-and-princess-margaret-of-prussia

Great picture of Moretta as a child, with her younger sisters.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: grandduchessella on November 26, 2012, 10:46:24 PM: I had always liked that photo. It was printed in a book Royalty and the Camera (?) years back which drew on some of the Royal Collection--barely a drop when we see what is there though! The little girls looked so sweet. Victoria looks like a giantess next to little Margaret--even sitting down.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Keith on January 09, 2014, 05:16:12 PM: Hope this works.

Victoria in her wedding dress signed to her grandmother, from the Royal collection

http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/2909278/princess-adolf-schaumberg-lippe-pss-viktoria-of-prussia-in-her (http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/2909278/princess-adolf-schaumberg-lippe-pss-viktoria-of-prussia-in-her)
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 09, 2014, 06:36:48 PM: She looks lovely in her wedding gown. I don't know why it is so often stated that the Vicky's daughters were unattractive. I think they had a strikingly handsome look.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 12, 2014, 07:06:12 PM: Moretta looked a lot like her cousin Ducky.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 13, 2014, 09:16:50 AM: In her wedding photo, Moretta looks strikingly like her aunt Alice.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 27, 2014, 01:12:46 PM: (http://www.bouvier-verlag.de/grafiken/cover/ditsche.jpg)

In the book "Viktoria von Preußen: Kaisertochter und Bürgerin" the author writes that Moretta had no miscarriage and was never pregnant.
The pregnancy was falsely made by a british military doctor on Morettas & Adolfs honeymoon, when she felt unwell.
A newly wed couple on holiday - what other should a doc think who has only men as patients...
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2014, 09:23:29 PM: This book just came out ?
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 30, 2014, 08:10:46 AM: No, the book came out in 2010.
It was out of print.
I got it a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Princess Victoria of Schaumburg-Lippe (Moretta), 2nd daughter of Kaiser Friedrich III
Post by: Marie Valerie on August 01, 2014, 02:50:37 PM: (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wCN07kH5l6M/TxBzbY55lvI/AAAAAAAAAg0/o_vxqRAPpNg/s1600/SCAN0210.JPG)

Viktoria with her husband and other members of the Schaumburg-Lippe family

From here: http://www.vierprinzen.com/2011/05/galerie-14.html