Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Alexandra Feodorovna => Topic started by: Janet_W. on April 22, 2004, 10:47:51 PM

Title: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Janet_W. on April 22, 2004, 10:47:51 PM
I'm wondering how well Alix understood the basics of hemophillia--its genetic probability in particular--and especially before she married?  Uncle Leopold had been a hemophilliac, Aunt Beatrice was a carrier, and little brother "Frittie" had also been so afflicted, but did Alix and her sisters understand anything about it?

And by the time Alix and Nicky had established their own family and the girls were becoming marriagable, do you suppose that OTMA understood that they, too, might be carriers?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 22, 2004, 11:02:07 PM
I doubt they understood exactly how it is inherited. She certainly knew enough to understand that the disease came from her. It was in her family, not Nicholas's. The guilt must have been terrible since she obviously loved her children and suffered with Alexei.

By the time Alexei was born, there were numerous other hemophiliacs in the family that she'd have had direct knowledge of, unless it was hushed up somehow. Her sister Irene had two hemophiliac sons. Her Aunt Beatrice had at least one and possibly two hemophiliac sons. I remember reading that when Beatrice's daughter Ena became engaged to the Spanish heir, the relationship was discouraged because they knew about the hemophilia in her family. Doctors of the time apparently knew something about the inheritance of hemophilia, even if the Royal Family was foggy on the details.

I think either Alix's sister Victoria or her aunt Victoria, the Empress Frederick (they were both bright women) was concerned about their brother Ernest marrying his first cousin Victoria Melita because of fear of the hemophilia. From that, I gather that they understood it ran in the family but didn't know exactly how it was passed down.

Cousin Princess Alice of Athlone, daughter of the hemophiliac Leopold, was younger than Alix. Her children would have been born a few years after Alexei, but Alix would probably have known that her two sons were hemophiliacs. But I don't remember reading anything that suggested concern over Princess Alice passing that disease down to her children, even though we know today that the daughter of a hemophiliac will ALWAYS be a carrier.

One thing that has intrigued me is that a female carrier of hemophilia is HERSELF abnormal. She produces a lower than normal blood clotting factor because she carries one defective gene. That often means that she might bleed more than is normal after an injury, have unusually heavy menses, maybe heal slower after a wound, etc. Alix had a lot of health problems in her later years. Is there a chance that her being a hemophilia carrier had something to do with it?

Very sad, in any event. Chances are good that two or more of the Grand Duchesses were hemophilia carriers. Of Alice's five daughters, Irene and Alix were both carriers and it's unclear whether Ella or May were.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: nerdycool on April 23, 2004, 12:06:44 AM
After reading the above posts, one question came to me and I was hoping someone would know, because I certainly don't know much about testing and the such. Anyway, I am wondering if there is any way to test remains for hemolphelia. Would you need real blood, or would it be sufficient to use bone marrow, or whatever sample would be availabe on old bones? If it were possible, I think it would be interesting to find out if any of the grand duchesses carried the gene. I'm not saying that they should be dug back up to find out... just that it would be interesting.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarai on April 23, 2004, 08:17:00 AM
Quote
One thing that has intrigued me is that a female carrier of hemophilia is HERSELF abnormal. She produces a lower than normal blood clotting factor because she carries one defective gene. That often means that she might bleed more than is normal after an injury, have unusually heavy menses, maybe heal slower after a wound, etc.


This reminds me of something that I read, I seem to recall it was in Vorres biography of GD Olga A., although I am not exactly sure. It was of an incident where the GD Maria was having her tonsils extracted and she was bleeding a lot more than was expected. Upon seeing this, however, Alix was calm and insisted that the doctor continue what he was doing. What stuck out about this passage was the fact that Maria was bleeding an unusual amount, which may or may not have been due to the possibility that she was a carrier.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 23, 2004, 01:06:00 PM
Great information! Helps put things in better perspective. And I, too, remember reading that passage in Olga A's biography re: Marie bleeding profusely.  By that time Alix had no doubt learned to become very, very stoic in a crisis . . . though afterwards she understandably displayed symptoms of what we would call delayed stress syndrome.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 24, 2004, 01:47:49 PM
I had never read that story about Marie's excessive bleeding following surgery. Did the book make the connection between her bleeding and the possibility of her being a hemophilia carrier?

It's rather a morbid subject, but it would be interesting to know which of the four girls were carriers. The "what ifs" of history are fascinating. What if Nicholas had married someone who wasn't a hemophila carrier? What if his daughter Olga had married Carol of Romania and produced a hemophiliac son, or if Tatiana had married the heir to the British throne and done likewise?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on April 24, 2004, 03:24:15 PM
Hi!
"I had never read that story about Marie's excessive bleeding following surgery. Did the book make the connection between her bleeding and the possibility of her being a hemophilia carrier?  "

My mother's cousine have a hemophiliac son ,but she have a rate of blood-platelet too hight.As you can see,there no connection between a "mother-carrier" and a "son-ill". The only way to know if the disease is in a family,is to see if there is some hemophiliacs,or to refer a whole family (aunts,cousines,sisters,etc,etc)for tests.not very easy... :-/

I think that the "hemophiliac problem" in the Romanov family (and in the queen Victoria's family) will always be an unsoluble problem or at least an unlimited source of discussions... ;D
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 24, 2004, 03:28:09 PM
I think it can vary depending on the woman. SOME women who are hemophilia carriers have some of the same symptoms as a hemophiliac. Other carriers have no such symptoms at all. I think there are also different types of hemophilia and similar blood disorders that women can have as well as men.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on April 25, 2004, 04:31:54 AM
Excuse me to insist. It's true that there are several types of hemophilia, more or less serious. I know something of it, since there is in my family (I 'm perhaps myself carrying).My father did his medicine thesis on the repercussions of the spontaneous saignements in the inferior members with the hemophiles.En reading it, I learned a lot of things:The women, normally cannot have the symptoms of the disease. nevertheless, some can be hemophiliac.  The gene carrier the gene X'S, transmitted by the mother. When it meets a gene THERE, the gene X'S is dominating and that "created" a hemophiliac boy.  When it meets another gene X healthy, it is "recessive"(not dominant) and therefore the girl will not be sick, "only" carrier.  Nevertheless when a hemophiliac one and a woman carrier have children, it can himself that they generate a girl hémophile:quand the two genes X'S are carriers of the disease...  The girl has one luck on two to be hemophiliac since this is the gene that it is transmitted for him by his mother that decides. The hemophiliac girls are therefore olus that rare and one can say unlucky...  :'(

Here, I hope that my terrible English :-[ will not have harmed this that I wanted to say you and that that will have you a little enlightened...  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 09:57:28 AM
Sorry, but there ARE women who are "symptomatic carriers" of the hemophilia gene and have lower than normal blood factor levels themselves. There are also a large number of women who are carriers and have no symptoms at all. I did some research on this a few years ago because I was interested in the Romanovs.

  Here's an address to an informational site for carriers of hemophilia you might find interesting:
  www.wfh.org/Content_Documents/TOH_Monographs/TOH8_Carriers.pdf

  Here's a passage from that site on symptomatic carriers:
  "A word about girls and women who are symptomatic carriers; they have additional needs which should be understood. These women usually need treatment for menorrhagia (protracted severe bleeding during menstrual periods), teeth extraction, surgery, and trauma, but can in rare instances, also have spontaneous bleeding episodes. Many respond to DDAVP, but some may also need treatment in concentrates.
  The greatest issue for symptomatic carriers is usually not the treatment they require but the fact that no one believes they have a bleeding problem, especially not one called haemophilia!"
 
  Here is another medical site with similar information:
  www.pediatriconcall.com/FORDOCTOR/DiseasesandCondition/hemophilia.asp

  And a relevant passage from that site:
  "Most carriers have a factor VIII level between 30-70 U/dl. Factor VIII levels should be assayed in all females who might be carriers to identify those with levels below 30 U/dl. These women should be treated the same as way as male hemophiliacs with similar factor levels.
  Assays of factor VIII activity and factor VWF: Ag can be used to predict whether a given woman is a carrier. If the Factor VIII level is below normal, then she can be designated as a true carrier. If her factor VIII is in the normal range, but her VWF: Ag is higher, then she is a true carrier."
 
  I'm no doctor and don't understand most of the medical terminology, but it certainly appears to me that female carriers can be both symptomatic and asymptomatic. Maybe it depends on the type of hemophilia and its severity?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Candice on April 25, 2004, 02:51:19 PM
"Haemophilia. Human disease in which blood-clotting is defective.  Known only in males.  Transmitted from mother to son. Determined by sex-linked recessive gene.  Women homozygous for this gene are unknown. " Homozygous - having identical genes.

No disrespect intended here.  Could the Tsar and the Tsarina have had the same genes?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 03:00:25 PM
No, the Tsar could not have been a hemophiliac or a carrier of hemophilia.

The defect for hemophilia is carried on an X gene. A male hemophiliac -- like Alexei -- inherits the defective gene from his carrier mother. A carrier mother like Alix has one healthy X gene and one defective X gene. She can pass either a healthy X or a defective X onto her offspring, so not all the children will have hemophilia or be carriers.

Because a carrier does have one healthy X, she produces enough blood factor to avoid serious problems for herself. In some cases, apparently a carrier female might have some of the symptoms of hemophilia and produce a lower than normal blood factor, but those symptoms vary. Usually carriers are not symptomatic.

If Alexei had lived to have children, all of his daughters would have been carriers because he could only pass down a defective X to them. If he had married a cousin who happened to be a carrier of the hemophilia gene, there IS a chance he would have had a hemophiliac daughter who inherited two defective X's. A true hemophiliac female is extremely rare. However, all of Alexei's sons would have been healthy UNLESS he happened to marry a cousin who carried the hemophilia gene herself, because the boys would have inherited their healthy X from their mother.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Joanna on April 25, 2004, 09:49:55 PM
Further to bookworm's reference to Empress Frederick, in reading different books on the Romanovs I have come across the story of Kaiser Wilhelm's love for Ella and his wish to marry her but that she spurned him. The authors would then comment negatively on Wilhelm's pomposity etc. But then recently I have read (sorry I cannot remember the book) another theory that it was Wilhelm who stepped aside from further pursuing of Ella due to the fear that she was a carrier and his determination to continue his family line with healthy children. This is not to say that his love for her was not genuine however we wish to interpret the question of his character.

Joanna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Louise on April 25, 2004, 09:56:05 PM
Joanna, would the same not apply to Prince Henry who eventually married Princess Irene? Would Henry not be warned about the possibility of hemophillia? Or would it not really matter seeing he was not going to inherit the throne? Was Henry forwarned and not heed the warning? Obviously he didn't heed it or he ignored it, seeing two of his sons were hemophilliacs.

Louise
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Joanna on April 25, 2004, 10:25:07 PM
Hi Louise !

Your comments are intriguing. I had not thought of Prince Henry and have not read very much about him. I wonder if the theory of whether it was Wilhelm or Ella who decided to decline further pursuing is in letters in the archives that have been overlooked and the same with Prince Henry's. Although I tend to believe that for the Kaiser his life has been searched diligently but for Prince Henry there must be a great deal as he is like Prince Leopold, the forgotten Prussian Prince.

Joanna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 26, 2004, 02:19:29 AM
Were not a lot of these archives destroyed in the bombing /burning of WWII?  I suppose it would depend on where they were kept.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarai on April 26, 2004, 07:44:22 PM
Quote
I had never read that story about Marie's excessive bleeding following surgery. Did the book make the connection between her bleeding and the possibility of her being a hemophilia carrier?


Bookworm,
Yes, the book does suggest a connection between Marie's bleeding and the possibility of her being a carrier. I quote the exact passage (pg. 115, The Last Grand Duchess):

"The Grand Duchess was positive that all her four nieces would have carried the dreaded disease to their male offspring if they had ever married, and insisted that they too bled freely. She recalled the panic that broke out at Tsarskoe Selo on the day that Grand Duchess Marie had her tonsils removed. It was expected to be a routine operation by Dr. Selerioff. The operation had barely begun when the young Grand Duchess began to hemorrhage. Taken by complete surprise, the doctor ran from the operating table in utter fright. And it was then, in a moment of extreme crisis, that the strength of Empress Alexandra was revealed. 'Alicky calmly grabbed the trembling doctor by the arm and said quietly but sternly: 'Will you please finish the operation, doctor?' He managed to do so successfully despite the persistent bleeding.' "
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 26, 2004, 08:22:32 PM
Very interesting. Poor Marie! I may be mistaken, but I think in Alix's letters to Nicholas she mentioned a couple of times when one of the girls was laid up because of  her monthly period. It makes one wonder if Marie or the other girls suffered more than is normal because they were carriers.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on September 22, 2004, 04:33:10 PM
Alexandra wasn't always in the best health and after each birth of her children she seemed to become weaker and weaker, however if N & A knew their son had "the bleeding" disease why didn't they have, or attempt to have more children?
Alexandra wasn't past her child bearing years, she was still in her prime when she had Alexei, so even though it would have weaken her health a little more should she have attempted to have another son?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alexa on September 22, 2004, 04:39:53 PM
Quote
Alexandra wasn't always in the best health and after each birth of her children she seemed to become weaker and weaker, however if N & A knew their son had "the bleeding" disease why didn't they have, or attempt to have more children?
Alexandra wasn't past her child bearing years, she was still in her prime when she had Alexei, so even though it would have weaken her health a little more should she have attempted to have another son?


This is purely speculation, but I imagaine for 2 reasons:
1) They were worried that if they had another son, he too may be a hemophiliac and did not want to risk inflicting such a fate on another child.

2) Taking care of Alexis took Alix's health.  She ages very quickly after Alexis, no doubt due to the constant worry over his well-being.

Alexa
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on September 22, 2004, 04:41:42 PM
You'd think she might, but I think it was getting progressively more dangerous due to her ill-health--it left her more than just weakened. I also think she had trouble conceiving for a bit--wasn't there a possible miscarriage in there? And there was no guarantee that after risking it all she wouldn't have either another daughter or another hemophiliac son like her sister Irene did. I can only imagine what it would've done to her mental health (if she'd survived it all) if after all that her NEXT son was also hemophiliac. Not just the piled-on guilt but the strain of 2 ill sons. I think Nicholas didn't want to risk it (and her). Maybe there was still hope that Misha would mature and marry well.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Merrique on September 22, 2004, 04:43:05 PM
I think the reason Alix and Nicky didn't have anymore children is for one,because of her health.And for another after having Alexei and finding out he had this disease they didn't want to take the chance of having another son with the same thing.Or having another daughter.

Or it could just be that after five children and finally having the long awaited son they felt their family was complete and didn't wish to have anymore children.
I could be wrong but these are just my thoughts on the subject.It makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Janet_W. on September 22, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
Yes, due to her ill health, I think they decided to focus all of their energies on their little son. A sound decision in many respects, but of course we know how the situation ultimately helped to skew things. So, "if only" the son(s) had been born ahead of the daughters is yet another one to ponder!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on September 22, 2004, 05:24:28 PM
So many what if's...but it does appear in the end Alexandra health was all but ruined by her frequent pregnacies, although I think, just from photos, she looked her best shortly after Alexei's birth
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bookworm857158367 on September 23, 2004, 07:38:39 AM
As a carrier of the hemophilia gene, Alexandra's own blood clotting factor would have been lower than normal. I wonder how much that contributed to her various health complaints. Since they used birth control, it seems that they deliberately chose not to have more children for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on September 23, 2004, 10:02:07 AM
Speaking of 'what if's' I still have to wonder if the child she lost in 1896 (over the stress from the Coronation tragedy that was recently revealed in letters to Victoria MH) had been a boy without hemophilia, how different their lives, and history might have been:(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on September 23, 2004, 07:30:18 PM
Wow, that is a good one...Hemophilia is such a tricky and fickle disease that we really have no way of knowing whether or not the child would have been a carrier.

I imagine if it had been a healthy boy, one has to wonder if Nicholas and Alexandra would have continued to have children. Since Alexandra was in ill health, I doubt she would have continued to have children, since it was no longer required of her to produce a heir
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: rskkiya on September 25, 2004, 08:52:08 AM
well...

Having had four daughters and one son subject to hemophilia, maybe they simply thought well that's enough lets stop...(women aren't just baby machines -- y'know ;)) and decided to focus on being there for their family and each other.
Besides, from what I have read N & A were very much in love and enjoyed a healthy sex life well beyond this  point!

R.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: nerdycool on September 25, 2004, 12:13:28 PM
Quote
I imagine if it had been a healthy boy, one has to wonder if Nicholas and Alexandra would have continued to have children. Since Alexandra was in ill health, I doubt she would have continued to have children, since it was no longer required of her to produce a heir

Alexandra, I think, would have continued to have children even if in ill health simply because she seemed to be a mother first. I liken it to Gone With the Wind, when Melanie, after her first child, was told that to have more children would seriously endanger her life. She threw that by the wayside because she loved kids so much and got pregnant, to where she didn't survive. Anyway, Alexandra still seemed to be healthy after Olga. It was the frequency of pregnancy and the difficulty of labor which wore her down.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RomanovFan on September 25, 2004, 02:20:27 PM
Has anyone read Alexandra's biography by Carolly Erikson? I've read it several times now.  It says that in 1896, she...well it doesn't exactly say what she had...it just says Alix's labor pains ended and then "a tiny ovul came out"...instead of a baby.... I'm confused now..  ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on September 25, 2004, 02:54:01 PM
Quote
Has anyone read Alexandra's biography by Carolly Erikson? I've read it several times now.  It says that in 1896, she...well it doesn't exactly say what she had...it just says Alix's labor pains ended and then "a tiny ovul came out"...instead of a baby.... I'm confused now..  ???



No, that was the 1902 false pregnancy where the tiny ovule came out (quote from Xenia's diary) In 1896 she was in the very early stages of pregnancy when she miscarried due to stress over the tragic events of the day (which she cried over) and the ball that night (which she didn't want to attend)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Michelle on September 27, 2004, 05:14:18 PM
What would this "ovule" be? ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on September 27, 2004, 05:15:37 PM
undeveloped egg
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Michelle on September 27, 2004, 05:31:11 PM
Oh, thank you Annie!  So it wouldn't have been very big at all, then would it?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alexandra on September 27, 2004, 05:43:07 PM
After the White forces entered the Ipatiev House, they discovered a box of condoms in a bureau drawer in the room known to have been occupied by HIM. There was also a box of female merkins, or pubic wigs. One might conclude from this evidence that TIM both practised contraception, following Aleksei's birth, and that perhaps HIM Aleksandra Feodorovna suffered from some sort of hormonal disorder which led to alopecia, or loss of hair, in her private regions. This evidence may cast some further light on the fact that no more children were born to TIM after the Tsarevitch. [Please see King and Wilson, The Fate of the Romanovs, for these details.]
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Merrique on September 27, 2004, 06:18:19 PM
SHHHHH!!!!!! don't mention them merkins. :o
That's a no-no subject.lol
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on September 27, 2004, 11:21:08 PM
Quote
After the White forces entered the Ipatiev House, they discovered a box of condoms in a bureau drawer in the room known to have been occupied by HIM. There was also a box of female merkins, or pubic wigs. One might conclude from this evidence that TIM both practised contraception, following Aleksei's birth, and that perhaps HIM Aleksandra Feodorovna suffered from some sort of hormonal disorder which led to alopecia, or loss of hair, in her private regions. This evidence may cast some further light on the fact that no more children were born to TIM after the Tsarevitch. [Please see King and Wilson, The Fate of the Romanovs, for these details.]



How odd...I remeber reading about the condoms of various shapes and sizes found in the room, but nothing about a "merkin"...to tell you the truth until I read your post I didn't even know what that was :o

I think Alexandra's health played a major role in her not having any more children, but what an intresting theory you have brought up. I may need to research this further
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Olga on September 28, 2004, 06:46:37 AM
Hehe. Merkins. *giggles*
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on September 28, 2004, 07:55:18 AM
I had never heard of those in my life :-[ that was more than I wanted to know  :P and I didn't know condoms existed back then.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Michelle on September 28, 2004, 08:22:52 AM
Yikes! "Merkins?"  Never heard of them until I read this thread....... Gross. :P
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on September 28, 2004, 09:03:55 AM
Quote
I had never heard of those in my life :-[ that was more than I wanted to know  :P and I didn't know condoms existed back then.


I didn't know it either (about merkins).  :-[ Yuck. Not to be gross but I looked it up out of curiosity and it didn't seem to have anything to do with contraception but rather as a modesty device for performances in plays, etc..Sort of like a female fig-leaf. It also had to do with 'lonely men' (I'll let you figure out the reason for that).  The only time I'd heard the phrase before was in relation to being a male escort for a lesbian woman who didn't want to be known as such. I did know about condoms back then from reading romance novels! No specifics though.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarai on September 28, 2004, 10:23:32 AM
Add me to the list of people who didn't know what "merkins" were before reading this thread! Although discussing these very intimate details of the imperial couple's life may make some uncomfortable, I find it all very interesting! It just gives us even more insight into their lives and helps us relate to them as normal human beings, not just as pure and holy figures who were above all that.

Before this board, I did not know that the couple used condoms, even though one would have to wonder what they did if they continued their sex life after having all their children. I just thought they may have used more traditional and natural methods of birth control. I had also never really known that the couple had such a healthy and passionate sex life before reading the forum. I did know that they were very much in love to the end and were very affectionate to each other in private, judging from their letters, but due to Alexandra's illnesses and the fact that they generally seemed such "prim and proper" Victorian figures, I just would have thought otherwise, especially after Alexandra's childbearing was over. Well, it is to be commended that they continued to enjoy such marital bliss after so many years of marriage.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sergio on September 28, 2004, 11:29:35 AM
Merkins - we learn something new everyday!  ;D

But lets talk about sex: Nicholas and Alexandra used contraception and birth control, but isn`t it against Orthodox church?

In the end of XIX century/beginning of XX century Orthodox church was pro or against?  
And today?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sergio on September 28, 2004, 12:08:30 PM
About the merkins, I did some net research and found some uses of the pubic wigs (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_232.html):

1) They used to shave off all the pubic hair as a cure for syphillis, so the well-to-do used wigs.
2) Before penicillin was around to ease the lives of the promiscuous, these were used to cover up any sores prostitutes may have obtained in the line of duty.
3) They used to treat the syphilitic with mercury, which caused baldness.
4) The merkin is for women with no pubic hair. Some people just don't develop hair down there, and this can be embarrassing.
5) In days of old a common problem was lice. One of the ways people dealt with this was to shave all the hair off their bodies, including arms, legs, and pubes. Wigs became very popular. Pubic wigs caught on slowly, starting among the kinkier set, but eventually became halfway respectable.


I don`t believe that the Imperial couple had syphillis, so I believe that they used a merkin because:

- some health problem (#4), has already been posted by Alexandra
or
- the lice (#5): Ipatiev house wasn`t very clean, right?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on September 28, 2004, 12:26:55 PM
That is alot of info :o
Although I'm glad I wasn't the only one who had never heard of those things
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Forum Admin on September 28, 2004, 03:40:31 PM
OK, yet again.
Bob very much will appreciate that the "merkin" topic no longer be discussed. We asked the LAST time it came up that it NOT be brought up again. Please, our website is listed curriculum material for well over one hundred fifty elementary, middle, and high school classrooms in the US, England and Australia, so we have a lot of kids coming in. Thanks for understanding.
FA
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alexandra on October 03, 2004, 12:41:59 AM
Dear Forum Administrator,
Request noted and filed. I did not know that it had previously been discussed, with a similar request, or I should not have posted it. I am sorry if I have inadvertently caused any difficulty. My work is in teaching adults, at a major university, and I was thinking in the vein of discussion which often ensues there.
May I also point out that I also addressed some queries about this subject to Mr King and Ms Wilson, co-authors of *The Fate of the Romanovs,* where I first read of it on p. 341. As I was at some pains to express to them that my query is entirely academic in nature, and in no way prurient, I should like to say so to you, as well. My interest lies very much in the domain of the medical aspects of the Tsaritsa's health, especially from a disciplinary crossover of endocrinology and psychiatry. Most of my students are retired professionals, who take the kind of course I offer from genuine and wide-ranging interest in many aspects of the people and events under discussion, and the topic is very likely to be raised by someone who has read the book.
But I am sorry if it caused you any inconvenience here.

Yours truly,

Katherine Alexandra M. Hines

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: alinna on December 17, 2004, 01:11:25 PM
Since females have random X inactivation in their cells, severity of carrier problems may depend on how many healthy/defective X's were inactivated?

Just a thought - remembered it from genetics class.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ferngully on December 21, 2004, 08:02:19 AM
there ia a theory that queen victoria's father was an unknown heamophillic because up until she was born, there wasn't a trace of it in the family
selina         xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on December 21, 2004, 01:47:26 PM
But if Queen Victoria's father had haemophilia, wouldn't he have suffered from the effects of the disease? Or is there a latent form of haemophilia?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Forum Admin on December 21, 2004, 02:27:20 PM
Hemophilia is what is known as a recessive trait. The father can be a carrier, but not suffer from the disease. Both parents have to have the recessive gene trait for the children to get the disease.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on December 21, 2004, 03:06:17 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, FA. So maybe that ishow it got into QV's family - both her parents had the reccessive gene. (But where did it come from into the house of Hanover in that case? Was Queen Charlotte a carrier, or was it a spontaneous mutation?)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: alinna on December 22, 2004, 12:58:20 AM
No, hemophilia is not a recessive trait.  It is an X-linked trait, meaning that it is carried on the X chromosome.  Since males only have 1 X chromosome, any males who carry the trait will exhibit hemophilia.  For a woman, who has two X chromosomes, they would have to have two defective genes, one on each X, to have the disease.  If they only have one defective gene, they are merely carriers.

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on December 22, 2004, 03:29:27 PM
Now I'm confused again! Who is right? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ferngully on December 22, 2004, 04:50:40 PM
sorry, what i meant was that queen victoria's father was not the royal, it was an unknown man with heamophilia as it can be traced back to her and no one before her, my phrasing was wrong sorry
selina         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Belochka on December 22, 2004, 08:34:56 PM
Recently a few books have emerged suggesting that Queen Victoria may have been illegitimate. The author's reasoning is usually based on a lack of understanding of basic genetic principles.

Queen Victoria at the time of her conception had a gene which had spontaneously mutated in utero. That defective gene manifested in the condition Hemophilia which she passed on to some but not all of her children.

With the passage of time down the generations and early deaths of all the affected individuals, the Hemophilia gene became a historic medical event among the European Royal Houses. It is no longer present.

All males who carry the defective gene will always present with Hemophilia, because the defective gene is always carried on the X chromosome. The actual condition can vary from mild to severe. These affected males will pass the condition down to only some their offspring:

Parents      h XY  - XX

Offspring    n XY  + XXh carrier female

                 (n = normal)

Another way for the male to 'contribute' Hemophilia to one of offspring is when his X sperm has spontaneously mutated at the time of conception of that child. The father of course is free of the condition.

In other words the Hemophilia gene is only present on X chromosomes. The source of that chromosome matters in genetic counselling.

 
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 26, 2005, 11:00:45 AM
I was just reading this site about the Romanovs, and it said that Alexandra was pregnant 7 times, so if thats true, then where are the other two children? ??? :-/
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bluetoria on February 26, 2005, 11:18:15 AM
She had two miscarriages.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 26, 2005, 12:15:12 PM
what doese thar mean lol? :-[ ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: otmafan on February 26, 2005, 12:29:03 PM
It means that the baby died while unborn by natural causes.

One of Alix's miscarriages was brought on by the stress of the coronation in 1896.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: cimbrio on February 27, 2005, 07:04:45 AM
When did she miscarry the second time? I had never heard of her having miscarriages...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: erzsi on February 27, 2005, 08:57:09 AM
The second miscarry was 1902 but i read also she only think she was pregnant (Scheinschwanger).
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Denise on February 27, 2005, 12:29:20 PM
On another thread about the book "My Empress" it discusses the fact that Alix did not have a miscarriage in 1896.  The book was a work of fiction.  She was riding horseback 3 days after her supposed miscarriage.  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Marya Pavlovna on March 01, 2005, 04:39:24 PM
What would of been weird is that if one of those miscarridges was a boy, then Alexei would have not been Tsarevich, and history would probably have changed!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Denise on March 01, 2005, 05:02:23 PM
Quote
What would of been weird is that if one of those miscarridges was a boy, then Alexei would have not been Tsarevich, and history would probably have changed!


Only if that boy child was not a hemophiliac.. :(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 01, 2005, 07:27:50 PM
It wouldn't be wierd at all. Not only could the child have been hemophilic, but Alexandra could have been stuck with two Alexei's in an attempt to produce a "healthy" heir after the first sickly child.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on March 01, 2005, 08:52:54 PM
I don't think they'd have tried for another 'healthy' heir, after all they didn't try after Alexei was born.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lemma on March 02, 2005, 07:41:58 AM
Quote
I don't think they'd have tried for another 'healthy' heir, after all they didn't try after Alexei was born.


Far be it to question a 'god' - but isn't this precisiely the key point.

As an historian who has been looking at this period for some years, I find this question of 'issue' rather odd.

It is the prime duty of those with a line to preserve to produce both 'an heir and a spare'. This could not have escaped AF.

Producing offspring like clockwork had been one of her best accomplishments - albeit girls.

It seems strange that no attempt was made to produce a 'spare'.

The risks of another 'bleeder' were less than 50%: even in the royal household from QV down, only P. Irene had given birth to a haemophiliac son without also producing a son who did not suffer.

QV produced 1 out of 4 sons (Leopold - 75% chance of 'success') and P. Beatrice 2/4 (50%). Niether of Victoria-Eugene's two were then born, but Juan was clear (so 33%). P Alice produced Ernest as well as Frederick (50%) and only AF's sister Irene produced two sons with the disease.

Statistics aside - this was the duty of an Empress.

Since N&A clearly enjoyed normal relations and were both fertile (the regularity of OTMA speaks to this), and since the Empress was only 32 when Alexis was born, one can only assume they deliberately decided to avoid having more children.

But the answer is not obvious to me.      

I cannot believe that it was a result of worries over child care (there were others at hand to help).

Was not the risk one that had to be taken?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 02, 2005, 04:35:05 PM
I have always wondered myself why they did not try and produce another heir after Alexei. I think it was because of Alexandra. We all know she was emotionally fragile, and I think that the idea of producing another heir with hemophilia would have killed her on the inside. We all know she blamed herself greatly for Alexei's condition, and they had no way of knowing whether or not their next male child might have the same disease. I think it was too much of an emotional roller coaster for her.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on March 02, 2005, 08:18:13 PM
Alix had awful health, even before the birth of Alexei, and afterwards it got worse. That seems to be why, they didn't want to risk her health.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: otmafan on March 02, 2005, 09:55:33 PM
Quote
Alix had awful health, even before the birth of Alexei, and afterwards it got worse. That seems to be why, they didn't want to risk her health.


That's true. Is it true that a doctor told her she shouldn't have any more kids, in fear of her health?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lemma on March 03, 2005, 05:12:40 AM
Sorry to seem unsympathetic, but I was suggesting that she had a duty as Empress to produce another heir.

AF being Empress was undoubtedly a role both parents took most seriously, but we seem to be concluding (perhaps correctly) that it was role they both considered secondary to that of wife and mother.

This has serious implications for any assessment of Alix as a character, and that of the Tzar.

But it's not remotely 'imperial', let alone autocratic.

Then again, it is not out of line with his later abdication on behalf of his son 'in order to keep the familiy together'.

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on March 03, 2005, 04:00:38 PM
Quote
What would of been weird is that if one of those miscarridges was a boy, then Alexei would have not been Tsarevich, and history would probably have changed!


Hmmm...
Maybe, even there might not have even been a revolution.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 03, 2005, 04:25:34 PM
Quote

Hmmm...
Maybe, even there might not have even been a revolution.


How so? Having another heir younger than Alexei would not have in any way, shape or form, stopped a revolution from occurring, particularly if the child had hemophilia. Even with another male, Alexei would still be the senior heir to the throne. He would have been especially looked after and just as important for that reason. They would have undoubtedly still summoned Rasputin even with another boy, and since they loved their children very much, they would have done it for him too (Alexei), not just for the dynasty. Besides, the people's problem was with Nicholas, not Alexei. The presence of Rasputin just fueled a burning fire further.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on March 03, 2005, 04:42:17 PM
I think they were meaning if one of the miscarried children (and these were before the birth of Alexei) were male, and without haemophilia, then things may have been very different.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lemma on March 04, 2005, 06:13:53 AM
Quote

Besides, the people's problem was with Nicholas...  

Wasn't the 'people's problem' with 'The German Woman' and lack of bread?

Rasputin was a weapon to get at her, which would probably not have been to hand if it were not for Alexei's condition, but almost certainly another weapon would have been used.

The 'what ifs' are always very tempting, but if N&A were the sort of people who could put familiy before Empire, then the Empire was always going to fall, even without the problems of Alexei.

And that's quite important for history.    
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 04, 2005, 07:25:37 PM
Quote
Wasn't the 'people's problem' with 'The German Woman' and lack of bread?  


 Yes, but wasn't Nicholas the one consumed by the war and therefore couldn't govern properly? The shortage of bread didn't just come out of no where, and it was because Nicholas was at the front that Alexandra was put in charge in his place, worsening the situation. Plus, it was under his rule that they lost the Russo-Japanese war in 1903-04, about 80% of his subjects lived in poverty, and the occurrence of Bloody Sunday outside the Winter Palace.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on March 06, 2005, 09:07:25 PM
Quote

How so? Having another heir younger than Alexei would not have in any way, shape or form, stopped a revolution from occurring, particularly if the child had hemophilia. Even with another male, Alexei would still be the senior heir to the throne. He would have been especially looked after and just as important for that reason. They would have undoubtedly still summoned Rasputin even with another boy, and since they loved their children very much, they would have done it for him too (Alexei), not just for the dynasty. Besides, the people's problem was with Nicholas, not Alexei. The presence of Rasputin just fueled a burning fire further.


Lol, sorry Ortino, I just want to get people thinking...
I guess it worked!
Well, one life could change history and the world.
Not to be religious, but for example, Jesus. Or Buddah. One life can do so much...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: La_Mashka on March 11, 2005, 12:58:34 PM
Hi there!

I was just wondering if anyone has ever seen pictures of the Empress being pregnant...

I have never seen any!


thanks!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bluetoria on March 11, 2005, 01:27:13 PM
I would think she would conceal it. There is a picture of Princess Alice at Bertie's wedding & she is all draped in huge rugs...I guess they thought it was unseemly to be seen, still more so be photographed when in a 'delicate condition'!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on March 11, 2005, 02:08:25 PM
visibly being pregnant
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/5a.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on March 11, 2005, 02:14:02 PM
Wouldn't it be hard (plus very uncomfortable) to wear a corset when you are pregnant!?  :P
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 11, 2005, 02:18:13 PM
I don't think they did once the baby was very far along, or they must have loosened it extensively. Women didn't go out in public anyway as the time to have the baby approached and when the stomach protruded noticeably. They stayed at home.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Shvibzik on March 11, 2005, 02:37:14 PM
Yes, but it would be hard to wear a corset anyway! lol!  :P
I don't  even know if they wore them while they were pregnant...but then again, you never know with royalty!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on March 11, 2005, 03:38:05 PM
I think they had special corsets for pregnancy.  But back in that era they didn't do any crazy tight-lacing anyway so it's not like it was uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Angie_H on March 11, 2005, 03:40:57 PM
Quote
visibly being pregnant
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/5a.jpg)

Is that Miechen in the pic too?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: jfkhaos on March 11, 2005, 04:10:59 PM
I believe it is Miechen; Alexandra looks awfully young in this picture!  Anyone know what child she was pregnant with?  Perhaps Anastasia?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 11, 2005, 04:32:10 PM
Quote
I believe it is Miechen; Alexandra looks awfully young in this picture!  Anyone know what child she was pregnant with?  Perhaps Anastasia?


 No, I really don't think so. Alix looked considerably older after she had Anastasia. She looks much too young here. The "hump" on her backside (:P) looks like a bustle, which were popular in the late 1800's. I'm going with either Olga or Tatiana, although my money is really on Olga. Nicholas looks very young too.

Are you sure that she's even pregnant in that picture? The woman behind Nicholas looks just as large as Alexandra. The fact that they had so many layers under those dresses, she appears to have a bustle, and her coat is very close fitting gives the appearance of extra weight.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on March 11, 2005, 05:22:58 PM
Hi La_ Maska,

There is one picture of Alix being pregnant, with Tatiana I think. It's taken in the Mauve Room, Alix is sitting in the big chair with Nicholas besides her on the armrest. There you can see she's definitely with child, she looks fuller in the face, as some women do during pregnancy.

This picture must be somewhere here on the board, can't find it tho. I'm sorry I can't posts pictures maybe there's someone who know's which picture I mean and post it.

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: nerdycool on March 11, 2005, 09:30:10 PM
I think she is pregnant in that photo. When Alexandra was in the first years of her marriage, she was quite thin. Even with all the layers of the skirts, the waistlines were still quite tight. And the pic posted above shows Alexandra's waist to be a lot thicker. Judging from the youthfulness of her face, and the fashion of her clothing, I'd bet that she was carrying either Olga or Tatiana. JMHO.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on March 11, 2005, 11:42:26 PM
Well, I'm guessing she is expecting Tatiana.

After she had Olga her face seems to have filled out a bit, not in a bad way, just "matured".

In this photo she looks like she "matured" and therefore I think she is expecting Tatiana.

By the time she had Anastasia she wasn't looking so good and after she had Alexie it all went down hill from there.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on March 12, 2005, 05:00:49 AM
It is Miechen, at the right her daughter Elena... and Alix expecting Maria (it was at Strelna in 1899)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on March 12, 2005, 05:20:56 AM
here are pregnancy corsets: you can open it on the back and the front, but also on the sides
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/corsetgrossesse.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/image022.jpg) 1908 USA
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on March 12, 2005, 05:41:18 AM
-
Quote
Hi La_ Maska,

There is one picture of Alix being pregnant, with Tatiana I think. It's taken in the Mauve Room, Alix is sitting in the big chair with Nicholas besides her on the armrest. There you can see she's definitely with child, she looks fuller in the face, as some women do during pregnancy.

This picture must be somewhere here on the board, can't find it tho. I'm sorry I can't posts pictures maybe there's someone who know's which picture I mean and post it.

Anna

in my book, it is said:"the photograph inscribed by the Tsar Zarskoe, 1899, May" So Alix was 8 months pregnant with Maria!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/5mai.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on March 12, 2005, 05:45:22 AM
Yes, this is the photo. Thanks as always Lisa.

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarai on March 12, 2005, 02:56:47 PM
There was a painting done of Alexandra when she was pregnant with Olga which hung in the Tsar's reception room. Her stomach was covered to conceal the pregnancy, though. You can see the painting here in the first photo (it is not a close-up, though):

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/tsarreception.html

The article says:
"[...] a lovely yellow and white impressionistic painting of Alexandra, showing her draped with lace to conceal her pregnancy with Olga, was hung above the wainscotting."
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on March 13, 2005, 04:21:42 AM
It's the Muller Norden portrait! I didn't knew that!Thank you Sarai!
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/images/ptalix4.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 13, 2005, 07:57:12 AM
Nice going Sarai! I totally forgot about that portrait. And I saw it at the N&A exhibition too in October...... :(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarai on March 13, 2005, 01:32:10 PM
You're welcome, Lisa and Ortino! :) Thank you for posting the colour picture of that lovely painting, Lisa.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: jackie3 on March 13, 2005, 09:40:48 PM
N&A obviously loved children and Alix didn't seemed to have the distaste for newborn babies her granmother Victoria did so it would seem to figure that given Alexandra's health they decided to not have any children after Alexis.

As for the heir and the spare thing, IIRC Michael was still single then and NII could still have expected to marry within the House Laws and produce male heirs so the Vladmirovitchi would not one day inherit. The fact that Michael married morgantically was something I don't think N&A could have expected.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: La_Mashka on March 15, 2005, 04:16:24 PM
Thank yous so much for all your replies!

She lookd stunning while pregnant... at least during the first ones...

Again.. thank you!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on March 15, 2005, 07:18:23 PM
Quote
It's the Muller Norden portrait! I didn't knew that!Thank you Sarai!
 


Oh--I really like that portrait. I had no idea she was expecting then.

As for the photo of her, Nicholas and Miechen--are they in mourning clothes and if so for whom?  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on March 16, 2005, 01:08:46 PM
yes, they do. I have another picture, I'll post it... ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Shvibzik on March 16, 2005, 02:33:42 PM
(http://homepages.tesco.net/~patio/new/a49.jpg)

What about here?  I can't tell, but she did look on the plumpier side... ::) ??? :P
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 16, 2005, 04:09:44 PM
How can you tell that's even Alix?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on March 16, 2005, 05:52:58 PM
Ortino,

I think there are some other photo's of Alexandra in the same outfit and hat, so it's quite obvious. Who do you think it could be otherwise?

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Shvibzik on March 16, 2005, 07:11:07 PM
The caption underneath the link said, "Empress of Russia at Hvidore".  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on March 17, 2005, 01:44:52 PM
Could be the Dowager Empress.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sunny on March 17, 2005, 03:44:58 PM
It looks like Minnie  :)

Sunny
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Val289 on March 17, 2005, 04:59:41 PM
Quote
It looks like Minnie  :)

Sunny



I'll second (or is it third?) that :)  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 17, 2005, 05:10:19 PM
Quote
Ortino,

I think there are some other photo's of Alexandra in the same outfit and hat, so it's quite obvious. Who do you think it could be otherwise?

Anna


Well, given the distance, it could be just about anyone. It doesn't even look like Alexandra. How can you go based on clothing? Alix could have had several outfits of the same style and so could someone else. The fact that it's in black and white, not to mentioned slightly fuzzy, makes it impossible to tell in that way. It's not obvious. It looks like the Dowager Empress more than Alix to begin with. And the caption simply says "Empress", it doesn't say which. What's the white dog? When did Alix ever have a white dog?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 17, 2005, 05:24:51 PM
Quote
The caption underneath the link said, "Empress of Russia at Hvidore".  


Most likely it is Minnie, since she was the one frequenting Hvidore. Did Alix even go to Hvidore ever?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on March 17, 2005, 06:17:53 PM
Quote

Well, given the distance, it could be just about anyone. It doesn't even look like Alexandra. How can you go based on clothing? Alix could have had several outfits of the same style and so could someone else. The fact that it's in black and white, not to mentioned slightly fuzzy, makes it impossible to tell in that way. It's not obvious. It looks like the Dowager Empress more than Alix to begin with. And the caption simply says "Empress", it doesn't say which. What's the white dog? When did Alix ever have a white dog?


Dear Ortino you are right, I must admit I answered too quickly, it was awfully late and I was tired, mistakes are easily made. Mea Culpa  :-[
But today I had a good look and yes I've seen this photo before, I really think it's Minnie.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Shvibzik on March 17, 2005, 06:30:32 PM
Quote

Most likely it is Minnie, since she was the one frequenting Hvidore. Did Alix even go to Hvidore ever?


I know I'll sound really stupid, but, where excactly is Hvidore? :-[ ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on March 17, 2005, 06:33:27 PM
Quote

Dear Ortino you are right, I must admit I answered too quickly, it was awfully late and I was tired, mistakes are easily made. Mea Culpa  :-[
But today I had a good look and yes I've seen this photo before, I really think it's Minnie.


it's alright, no big deal. And yes, everyone makes mistakes.  :) I think it's Minnie too.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarai on March 17, 2005, 06:33:44 PM
Quote
I know I'll sound really stupid, but, where excactly is Hvidore? :-[ ???


It is Denmark, outside of Copenhagen I think. There is a thread about it here:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=otherpalaces;action=display;num=1102955127
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Shvibzik on March 17, 2005, 06:43:16 PM
Thanks. ;D  Then it is most likely the Dowger Empress.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on March 18, 2005, 06:04:06 PM
Quote
(http://homepages.tesco.net/~patio/new/a49.jpg)

What about here?  I can't tell, but she did look on the plumpier side... ::) ??? :P



I have to say the Dowger Empress.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on March 18, 2005, 07:00:35 PM
Quote

As for the photo of her, Nicholas and Miechen--are they in mourning clothes and if so for whom?  


This is what I found:
http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1414&item=3964963506&rd=1

It says, the photo is taken in Livadia in 1902, they are in mourning due to the death of Prince Eddy, the Duke of Clarence on jan. 2 1902, but wasn't that in jan. 1892?

Correct me if I'm wrong - it's again late already- if this photo is taken in 1902  Alix could be pregnant- could that be the so called phantom pregnancy? Somewhere in august 1902 she had a supposed miscarriage.

(Also take a look a the other interesting photo's )

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on March 18, 2005, 07:27:05 PM
THat's wrong though since Prince Eddy died in 1892. :P  I was on the  phone when I wrote that and had a brainfart.  I knew it was 1892! :D
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 18, 2005, 07:38:52 PM
Prince Eddy died in Jan 1892.

Also that certainly looks like Minny in the photo above.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on March 19, 2005, 10:45:05 AM
I wasn't aware that there were any pictures of Alix while she was visibly pregnant, but then, back then, women often times did try to conceal it.  But in my opinion, Alix's glow in those photographs is very evident, as it is in all mothers-to-be.  It has been said that a woman is never more beautiful than when she is pregnant, despite the changes going on.  And Alix is proof of that!!!!  :-* 8) :D
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on April 11, 2005, 11:12:34 PM
I read that Alix had a miscarriage when she became pregnant again after Olga's birth. I always thought that she either had a miscarriage or a false pregnancy after Anastasia's birth. Also, I read that Alix's breastfeeding her children was looked down upon. Why?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on April 11, 2005, 11:18:43 PM
I don't know about the miscarriage at that time, but in those days, Queens and Empresses (and proabbly most ladies of a certain social class) most certainly did not breast-feed - they had a wet-nurse do that for them. The fact that Alexandra did it herself was very unusual, and something only 'common' people would do. (I think "Good on her!" myself)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on April 12, 2005, 12:20:04 AM
The 1896 miscarriage is, AFAIK, not true.  It was reported in the Mouchanow book which we know to be fake.  Can anyone clarify?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on April 15, 2005, 03:07:23 PM
The miscarriage was also mentioned in the book about Aleksandra written by Carolly Erikson.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on April 15, 2005, 03:15:26 PM
Quote
The miscarriage was also mentioned in the book about Aleksandra written by Carolly Erikson.


Erickson's book relies heavily on these fake memoirs.  Her book isn't a reliable biography at all because of this.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lexi4 on April 15, 2005, 11:54:39 PM
I thought I read somewhere that is was a false pregancy. I will try to check into this over the weekend.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on May 08, 2005, 08:22:14 PM
http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_crosscollex/romanov/oneITEM.asp?pid=1001464&iid=1001464&srchtype=

Could she have possibly been pregnant here? Her waist is kinda...wide.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on May 08, 2005, 08:22:56 PM
No, that's much later than having any of the children.  Looks like around c1908-1910.  After having five children, well, you're sure not gonna be as skinny!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lexi4 on May 08, 2005, 09:51:49 PM
Thanks all. Some of these were new for me.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on May 10, 2005, 09:27:26 PM
I read in a book that for Anastasia and Aleksey, Aleksandra was so worried about having another daughter she didn't want to hear right away what the sex of the baby was. So Nikolai and the doctor decided on hand signals that would tell each other what the baby was. Is this true?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on May 10, 2005, 09:29:15 PM
Never heard of that.  What book?

I don't think Nicholas was in the room for the children's births, except for Olga and perhaps Tatiana.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lexi4 on May 10, 2005, 09:40:30 PM
That is a new one for me too. I know they were disappointed when they didn't have a son, but I have not heard about any signals.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: etonexile on May 10, 2005, 09:59:11 PM
I CAN'T imagine the strain....one hoped for a healthy baby...but PLEASE,God...a BOY this time?....And then it was a boy...a doomed boy...."The Lord Giveth...And The Lord Taketh Away...."...I'd likely be half-mad from it all as well....Poor Empress...poor family...poor Russia.... :'(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pinklady on May 11, 2005, 06:20:49 AM
I have read also that there were signals between the Doctor and the Tsar, but I cannot remember which book.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ashanti01 on May 11, 2005, 07:31:19 AM
I also remember reading that Nicholas and the Doctor had some sort of hand signal to indicate the sex of the baby, so they wouldn't distress the Empress. I can't remember which book I read that in, but I do remember reading that.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on May 11, 2005, 12:59:16 PM
"Alexandra the last Tsarina" by Caroylly Erickson

Tatiana's birth page 112.
Quote:
'Because of Alix's apprehension about the baby's gender-her exaggerated hope for a son, her dread of a second daughter- it had been agreed that, at the moment of birth, the accoucheur would give a silent signal to Nicky to indicate the baby's sex. That way Alix would be spared a shock, and could be left to recover from the effects of the chloroform without the added strain of either elation or disappointment.'
Quote: Nicholas diary:
'At 10:40 in the morning the Lord blessed us with a daughter - Tatiana... This time it all went quickly and safely, and I did not feel nervously exhausted.'
Quote:Martha Mouchanow:
'When the child came into the world, there was a profound silence in the room. Everyone was disappointed, no one wanted to voice that disappointment.'
Quote:
When after a moment or two Alix opened her eyes and knew where she was, she saw anxiety and distress on the faces of her sister and the others. She knew at once that she had had another daughter. Her sobs were louder than the crying of the newborn, and lasted long into the afternoon.'

If this scene went exactly as decribed above I don't know, the last quotation is a bit too dramatized .I guess the use of chloroform was a privilege for the upper class. I thought Queen Victoria used chloroform too at childbirth.

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 11, 2005, 01:03:59 PM
Anna,
The Martha Muchonow book is a total fiction, totally made up. Please do not  cite it as any sort of "evidence" of anything.

FA
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on May 11, 2005, 01:51:26 PM
FA,

You are right. I know the M. Mouchanow book is total fiction, should have payed more attention and left this quotation out. Sorry.

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Dennis on June 23, 2005, 11:55:13 AM
At the time of Nicholas and Alexandra, was it widely known which parent determines the gender of a child?  Nowadays Alix would not have felt guilty since we know it is the baby's father.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Marialana on June 23, 2005, 05:31:23 PM
Quote
At the time of Nicholas and Alexandra, was it widely known which parent determines the gender of a child?  Nowadays Alix would not have felt guilty since we know it is the baby's father.


I'm sure Alexandra didn't know that it was the male who determines gender. Personally, I can't imagine what she must have felt like under all that pressure to produce a son. A fourth daughter, although they loved her dearly, meant only that Alexandra had to bear the physical burden of yet another pregnancy. That had to have been tough on both of them, actually.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on July 07, 2005, 01:03:42 AM
Now that I think of it, why would Nikolai and the doctor need hand signals to tell each other if the baby was male or female? Wouldn't they be able to see that for themselves?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: hikaru on July 15, 2005, 07:05:08 AM
I have heard that  when Alexandra gave birth to Alexey , there was one dangerouse moment when
Nicholas was asked by the Doctor, whom we should
save in the case of emergency - Mother or Child.
Nicholas said : a  child - if it is a boy.

Alexandra was told about it later.
So I think that after this  she did not want to have other babies. And maybe her feelings toward the husband ( in the botton of her heart)  changed too.
We do not know exactly , but maybe she wanted to make Alexey to a Tsar in 1917, instead of Nicholas.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: bluetoria on July 15, 2005, 10:25:58 AM
Although that sounds a little harsh, I believe that perhaps Nicholas thought that that was his religious duty. Until very recently some Churches insisted that the child should be saved before the mother.  :-/

I would imagine, too, that Alix would probably have agreed with him.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Laura Mabee on July 15, 2005, 12:37:48 PM
Holy Crap! Are you serious Hikaru? Do you remember where you heard that? I would be interesting in reading about that for myself.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: hikaru on July 15, 2005, 03:53:27 PM

I have heard about it in a new documentary  film about Nicholas and ALexandra by famous russia politician observer Svanize.
It is in Russian but there are a lot of extracts of the
Nicholas and Alexandra movies in it.

He said that Alexandra did hear about it .

I think that mother should be saved firstly. Maybe she thought the same with Nicholas maybe she did not.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 16, 2005, 01:13:15 PM
Whoa...that is a little harsh! I mean, save the son and let the mother die...if something happens to the son then there can't be another one unless he remarries but if you saved the mother she could have another baby!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Finelly on July 16, 2005, 02:47:36 PM
I would assume that a deeply religious orthodox christian like Alexandra would have felt that it was imperitive to save the new life..........especially if it was the boy she'd been praying for.  I get the impression that if she could have sacrificed herself to save Alexei at any time, she would have.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Speedycat on July 16, 2005, 03:50:32 PM
 :o Interesting topic indeed!  One learns something new everyday!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 16, 2005, 08:49:26 PM
Quote
Although that sounds a little harsh, I believe that perhaps Nicholas thought that that was his religious duty. Until very recently some Churches insisted that the child should be saved before the mother.  :-/

I would imagine, too, that Alix would probably have agreed with him.


Nothing to do with NAOTMAA, but Napoleon had the same problem with his second wife Marie-Louise. Doctors said there was a huge danger to the Empress life. The Emperor must choose: it was Marie-Louise's life or the baby's one. He become desperate: "Save the mother, for pity sake! - he shout out - We may have other babies but I only have one Marie-Louise. Oh,no save the mother!".

Happyly, Marie-Louise lived and the little baby, now the King of Rome, the heir, too.

Church (Catholic one...I don't know about Orthodox Faith) said only that the father must choose between the mother or the baby. Most of fathers, choose the mother. In my own family it was two cases of it. And the two fathers (my great-grandfather and my grand-father) said the same than Napoleon. "We may have other babies, but we have only a wife".

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: GD Alexandra on July 16, 2005, 11:58:12 PM
Well Napoleon was right when he said "We may have other babies but I only have one Marie-Louise." A very intelligent man.
Obviously Nicholas was desperate to have a boy, the heir. Maybe he had a feeling (due to Alix health and difficult previous pregnancies) this was going to be the last birth so, "let's be sure the baby boy it's definitely saved".

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ilyala on July 17, 2005, 06:47:27 AM
the funny thing about this is that napoleon's marriage was political while nicholas was married out of love... that makes it kinda unbelievable...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: hikaru on July 17, 2005, 09:50:40 AM
Who knows.
Maybe NIcholas needed a heir desperately.
( But he had his brother Mikhail - why he did not want to pass the power to him - this is the question).
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Marialana on July 17, 2005, 10:38:52 AM
We'll probably never know what Alexandra truly thought of this, but  my gut feeling tells me she would've agreed with Nicholas. After struggling for so long and being completely tied up in emotional knots for years over not producing a son, I definitely believe that Alexandra would've chosen to risk her life in order to save her child's. By having child after child and ruining her health in the process, she had essentially been risking it all along.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Speedycat on July 17, 2005, 02:28:21 PM
Putting aside some of the more "mature audience only" material in regards to birth control methods...........I find it very heart-warming the Nicholas and Alexandra went to such efforts to maintain their marital relations in a time when the most convenient form of birth control was seperate bedrooms and a mistress for the husband.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Arianwen on July 17, 2005, 04:42:28 PM
Quote
We'll probably never know what Alexandra truly thought of this, but  my gut feeling tells me she would've agreed with Nicholas. After struggling for so long and being completely tied up in emotional knots for years over not producing a son, I definitely believe that Alexandra would've chosen to risk her life in order to save her child's. By having child after child and ruining her health in the process, she had essentially been risking it all along.


I know at least somewhat what Alexandra must have been going through. I'm PCO (poly-cystic ovarian), I had to have my right ovary removed shortly after the birth of my daughter, and I had three miscarriages before Laura was born, all due to ovarian cysts. There are other health problems, too, such as a cracked sacrum that's never really healed, but I was told when I was roughly fourteen that all my pregnancies would be high-risk, and the doctors would probably recommend C-sections. When it came time for Laura to be born, they did, in fact, suggest C-sections, and I told them where they could stick all their pointy medical objects. ::) Each child risks my health more, but I made DAMNED sure my husband knew that if it came down to it, he was to save the child instead of me. He feels just as strongly the other way. This tends to be how it goes, that the mothers would choose the child and the fathers would choose the mothers. The agreement my husband and I finally reached was that I wasn't going to have it put in writing or the like, but Jon was going to have to seriously take my feelings on the matter into account.

I find my perspective has changed a little, though. I already have one little miracle, and my second will most likely be safe. After that, I think I'd owe it to my children to stay alive for them, and if my husband were to choose me, I would probably go along with it. It's a God-awful situation either way, but I don't honestly believe Nicky would ever have chosen their child over Alix, not with how much he loved her. Just my opinion, of course.

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 17, 2005, 05:42:42 PM
Quote
the funny thing about this is that napoleon's marriage was political while nicholas was married out of love... that makes it kinda unbelievable...


Dear Ilyala:

                       I suggest you to go read a little about the subject.
                        Yes: Napoleon mean to marry Marie-Louise of Habsburg for political reasons. But the truth was that, when he saw her for the first time he became absolutely crazy about her. He wanted even to consumate marriage before the religious marrying. He was really and deep in love with this young Austrian princesse . The anecdote I referred to is quoted in almost EVERY Napoleon biography and I don't accept you call me basically a liar " "...that makes it kinda unveliable..."  >:( ) People nowadays think love, friendship and so are modern inventes...Nonsense.

                        If you have some time remain, you may perhaps read all this interesting stuff (I suppose  it is in English, for I have these books in French and Spanish, but since they are books written by very important and serious historians, I think they must be...). They would teach you about Napoleon's love for his second wife:

 1- Castelot, André: "Napoléon"
 2- Aubry, Gustave: "La Vie Privée de
     Napoléon" ("Napoleón's Private life")
 3- Lacroix, Desirée: "Histoire de Napoléon"
     ("Napoleon's History")
 4- Ludwig, Emil: "Napoléon"
 5- Abrantes, Duchesse de : "Mémoires" 10
     tomes.
 6- Bonaparte, Joseph: "Mémoires" 8 tomes.
 7-Masson, Frédéric:  "Napoléon et les       Femmes" ""Napoleon and the Women"
 8- Fleury de Chabulons: "Les Cent Jours"
     ("The Hundred Days")
 9- Bignon: "Histoire de Napoléon" 14 tomes.
 10-Lord Fisher :"Napoleon"
 11- Brottonne: "Lettres inedites de Napoléon"
       ("Inedits letters by Napoleon")
 12- Masson, Frédéric: "Napoléon, l'inconnu"
       ("Napoleon, the unknown")

   And finally, the great work of the excellent Napoléon expert: Jean Toulard, who wrote: "Le Dictionnaire Napoléon" who is a great treasure in all subjects related to the Emperor, since economic and militar and social problems to his more intimate life and relationships with siblings, relatives, friends, ennemies, wifes and lovers.

    And this is ONLY to start for I have bunch of other books and magazine articles speaking about the Emperor-Empress relationships and other interesting insights in his life.

     Be sure he INDEED loved young Marie-Louise. Sadly, the thing was not both ways. Marie-Louise was a cold , indifferent creature who never had the slightlest love toward her husband. When he was prisonner in Elba's Island he begged to her to come. She never went there and when he was send to Santa Helena, she remained very quiet and happy in Schönnbrun where she returned to live with her father, the Emperor. Some time later, she started to travel and took a lover. She left alone her little son and rarely would see him.

    This is, writing it fast and roughly, the whole story about this couple. He loved her; she didn't love him a bit, or in the better of the cases, she was passive.

        However, I'm a little upset. You accuses me to assert a "not belivable" thing. You doesn't  quoted a source, for you just assumed that "all kings and queens married for State reasons".   Nicholas and Alexandra story, the Victoria and Albert one and many, many others you may notice that history offers some samples of love between royal couples. And even in the cases were State reasons were the imperative for a royal marriage , love could developpe slowly...or very fast, as in Napoleon's case when he saw Marie-Louise.

  RealAnastasia.


                       
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ilyala on July 18, 2005, 07:35:58 AM
i'm sorry... where exactly in those two sentences have i called you a liar?

i didn't say what you said was not true.  i said it was unbelievable... maybe i expressed myself wrongly.

translation: the napoleon-marie louise marriage was a political marriage. it might have turned into a love match for him, but at first it was a political marriage. nicky and alix were madly in love with each other from the start and defied their families to get married. that's what makes it extraordinary that napoleon chose the mother over the baby (which was the reason he married her in the first place - he had no heir!) while nicky, who married alix for love would choose the son.

hold your horses :P

edited to add: oh and another thing:

Quote
However, I'm a little upset. You accuses me to assert a "not belivable" thing. You doesn't  quoted a source, for you just assumed that "all kings and queens married for State reasons".   Nicholas and Alexandra story, the Victoria and Albert one and many, many others you may notice that history offers some samples of love between royal couples. And even in the cases were State reasons were the imperative for a royal marriage , love could developpe slowly...or very fast, as in Napoleon's case when he saw Marie-Louise.


where exactly did i say that all royals marry for state reasons? i said napoleon married for state reasons, something you yourself admitted. i didn't say he didn't fall in love with her afterwards, i said the only reason he married her in the first place was politics and THEN he fell in love. i know lots of exampls of royal love matches, like edward 1st of england and eleanor of castille, for example (what a touching story!), richard 2nd of england and anne of bohemia etc etc...

not everyone is set to offend you and stop reading too much into a random observation
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarfan on July 18, 2005, 04:34:27 PM
Nicholas, and particularly Alexandra, exhibited quite a bit of denial that Alexis would never be able to rule.   They took extreme measures (and paid a huge political price) in hiding his condition from the public.  Nicholas presented Alexei as the heir and spent more time exposing him to a tsar's duties than Alexander III did with him.

Alexandra succumbed to a deepening religious hysteria in her attempts to have God cure Alexei, and she sacrificed her health to his care.

Might not having another son as a "back up" force a confrontation with a reality neither were prepared emotionally to handle?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Marialana on July 18, 2005, 04:40:38 PM
Quote
Nicholas, and particularly Alexandra, exhibited quite a bit of denial that Alexis would never be able to rule.   They took extreme measures (and paid a huge political price) in hiding his condition from the public.  Nicholas presented Alexei as the heir and spent more time exposing him to a tsar's duties than Alexander III did with him.

Alexandra succumbed to a deepening religious hysteria in her attempts to have God cure Alexei, and she sacrificed her health to his care.

Might not having another son as a "back up" force a confrontation with a reality neither were prepared emotionally to handle?



You bring up an interesting point. If they had a "spare" son and he was a hemophiliac as well I think it would have pushed Alexandra over the edge, and perhaps Nicholas along with her.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but isn't it true that as Alexei aged his bleeding episodes became less severe? If he had grown into adulthood perhaps he would indeed have been able to rule. I realize that it's futile to play the "what if" game, but maybe Nicholas clung on to that hope as well?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 18, 2005, 05:22:57 PM
Quote


You bring up an interesting point. If they had a "spare" son and he was a hemophiliac as well I think it would have pushed Alexandra over the edge, and perhaps Nicholas along with her.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but isn't it true that as Alexei aged his bleeding episodes became less severe? If he had grown into adulthood perhaps he would indeed have been able to rule. I realize that it's futile to play the "what if" game, but maybe Nicholas clung on to that hope as well?


Nicholas and Alexandra practiced birth control after the birth of Alexis. I believe this was because of the possibility of hemophelia, but it may also have been due to the large size of Alix's babies.

Nicholas was supposedly told by a doctor at Stavka during the abdication process that Alexis was unlikely to live to age 21. While this was devasting to hear, he did seem to accept it.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 18, 2005, 07:46:19 PM
Quote
i'm sorry... where exactly in those two sentences have i called you a liar?

i didn't say what you said was not true.  i said it was unbelievable... maybe i expressed myself wrongly.

translation: the napoleon-marie louise marriage was a political marriage. it might have turned into a love match for him, but at first it was a political marriage. nicky and alix were madly in love with each other from the start and defied their families to get married. that's what makes it extraordinary that napoleon chose the mother over the baby (which was the reason he married her in the first place - he had no heir!) while nicky, who married alix for love would choose the son.

hold your horses :P

edited to add: oh and another thing:


where exactly did i say that all royals marry for state reasons? i said napoleon married for state reasons, something you yourself admitted. i didn't say he didn't fall in love with her afterwards, i said the only reason he married her in the first place was politics and THEN he fell in love. i know lots of exampls of royal love matches, like edward 1st of england and eleanor of castille, for example (what a touching story!), richard 2nd of england and anne of bohemia etc etc...

not everyone is set to offend you and stop reading too much into a random observation


You didn't said me "a liar" with those two exact words. But if a person said something that it is "unbelievable" you must not accept the things that he/she is saying as the truth. So...

And you didn't said all royal marriages are for state reasons. I wrote it, for since I don't know you personnally, I don't know what do you thing about royal marriages. With your words it was clear to me that you didn't know the Napoleon-Marie Louise relationships and I was not sure how much do you know about other royal couples. As for Napoleon, I don't know if you know a great deal about his life, but I'm sure you read a lot about all the other royal couples you quoted. Congratulations!

As for Napoleon choosing the mother over the baby, this is for he was already in love with the Empress.The anecdote is not in a single book about him but in many of them. Many persons were present when he shout out those words to the doctors...I don't think they are not true, or romantic made-up stuff.

RealAnastasia.

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 10:25:31 PM
Just out of curiosity, what evidence do we have that they practiced birth control?  The fact that condoms of "various sizes" were found in their rooms doesn't indicate to me that they belonged to N and A....is there some documentation of this fact?

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on July 18, 2005, 10:49:38 PM
Finelley has brought up an excellent point. Everyone assumes that the things found belonged to, or were even used by the Emperor and Empress, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. They could have belonged to the Ipatievs or even been put there afterwards by the Reds.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ilyala on July 19, 2005, 11:49:54 AM
Quote

You didn't said me "a liar" with those two exact words. But if a person said something that it is "unbelievable" you must not accept the things that he/she is saying as the truth. So...

And you didn't said all royal marriages are for state reasons. I wrote it, for since I don't know you personnally, I don't know what do you thing about royal marriages. With your words it was clear to me that you didn't know the Napoleon-Marie Louise relationships and I was not sure how much do you know about other royal couples. As for Napoleon, I don't know if you know a great deal about his life, but I'm sure you read a lot about all the other royal couples you quoted. Congratulations!

As for Napoleon choosing the mother over the baby, this is for he was already in love with the Empress.The anecdote is not in a single book about him but in many of them. Many persons were present when he shout out those words to the doctors...I don't think they are not true, or romantic made-up stuff.

RealAnastasia.

 


i never said what you said wasn't true. i'm sure it is :)
i just expressed my amazement.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 19, 2005, 04:17:14 PM
Quote
 Everyone assumes that the things found belonged to, or were even used by the Emperor and Empress... They could have ...been put there afterwards by the Reds.


Why?  ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on July 19, 2005, 04:24:47 PM
I don't really think the reds would have put anything there, except maybe merkins. I was just being a bit cheeky. But at the same time, weren't the Ipatievs cleared out of their house at very short notice? Is it not possible that some of the things found actually belonged to them?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Marialana on July 19, 2005, 05:57:20 PM
Hmmm...I suppose it's possible that some of the things found in the Ipatiev House didn't belong to N & A. Still, I tend to believe that the "personal" effects found in their room belonged to them. After all, they didn't have any more children after Alexei, yet maintained a very close physical relationship that has been well-documented in their correspondence. I don't know of any real proof one way or another, but it doesn't seem like a stretch of the imagination to me at all. I have to say, though, I feel a bit overly nosy even wondering at all! :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 12:17:44 AM
Quote
As a carrier of the hemophilia gene, Alexandra's own blood clotting factor would have been lower than normal. I wonder how much that contributed to her various health complaints. Since they used birth control, it seems that they deliberately chose not to have more children for whatever reason.

How do we know they used birth control? What is the source on that? What method of birth control, it wasn't exactly like you could take the pill back then. Most methods were not very effective.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2005, 11:15:54 AM
I think that the 'condoms' would have been seen as birth control.
Beside after 5 difficult births what more did anyone want?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 16, 2005, 06:42:35 PM
I think Nikky remained OUTSIDE the room while his babies were born.  Men didn't start coming into the birthing room until fairly recently (except for the doctor, of course).  Of course it wasn't his OR Alix's fault that they had 4 girls and a boy with a deadly disease.  It's not like he consciously made a decision that his sperm would have an X chromosome the first four times just for fun.  Genes are PURE CHANCE... you just can't decide what you get.  Now, if Alix had just decided one day to make her son a bleeder, that might be different.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 16, 2005, 07:09:06 PM
I'm glad this question is being discussed.  After reading this thread it seems to me that it's possible Alix just could not have anymore children after Alexei.  She was so ill after all those births, and I don't think it's possible to imagine yourself into a wheelchair.  Alix loved playing with her children, and she wouldn't sacrifice that time with them to hypocrondriac symptoms.  Also, it wouldn't be logical to try and conceive another child if the likely outcome would be the deaths of both fetus and mother.  Her body just would not have been able to nourish another baby for nine months.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on August 17, 2005, 08:38:08 AM
I've got a question about Alix's supposed miscarriage at the time of the coronation. The only reference for that miscarriage I've run across is the book, My Empress, by Marfa Mouchanow which is now known to be a fabrication. Does anyone have another source for this info?
Sm
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 01:44:22 PM
D**n that Mouchanow woman!  She causes so much confusion.  >:( Let me list some dates, though.

on 11/15/1895 Olga was born.
6 months later on 5/26/1896 is the coronation.  Then, a year after that, on 6/10/1897 Tatiana is born.

I think it improbable that N + A would have tried to conceive so soon after Olga was born.  She also breastfed liitle Olishka, and I believe that stops a woman from conceiving.  Olga and Tatiana are so close together, only 1 1/2 years, that a miscarriage inbetween is unlikely.  But that's just my hypothesis.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 17, 2005, 01:54:28 PM
I think Nikolai was in the room for Olga and Tatiana's births at least. He writes in his diary as if he was there.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 17, 2005, 01:57:59 PM
Well, breast feeding only makes it harder for a woman to become pregnant. It doesn't make it impossible. Lots of women have gotten pregnant after giving birth thinking breast feeding would stop it from happening.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on August 17, 2005, 06:24:16 PM
Here's what I was able to find from Greg King's bio of Alix. About six months after Olga's birth, "The newspapers in St. Petersurg began hinting that the empress was pregnant, and even Queen Victoria wrote to Alexandra's sister Victoria to discover the truth." The source for that information is cited as Advice to a Granddaughter. The next bit of info, "But within a matter of days the pregnancy had come to an end: Following the stress of the coronation, Alexandra suffered a miscarriage and lost the baby" is attributed to Mouchanow.

So, it's clearly possible that there was talk about a pregnancy between Olga & Tatiana. Whether it turned out to be true is unlikely, in my opinion.
Sm
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 23, 2005, 02:01:41 AM
I'm thinking that I'll trust the diary rather than my cursory knowledge of birthing customs.  Come to think of it, in Marie Antoinette's day EVERYONE was in the room when a French royal gave birth.  Family members, in-laws, peasants...that must have SUCKED.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 23, 2005, 06:58:18 PM
Actually, I've asked this before, but got no answer. I read in the Royal Diaries book about Marie Antoinette that she had to take her Austrian clothes off in front of all those women and get her French clothes. She also had to take her baths in front of other women. I know those diaries aren't very accurate, so what really happened? Yes, she did give birth to her first child in front of a crowd, but all the children after her first she gave birth to in private.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on August 25, 2005, 12:43:51 AM
What an interesting subject!  Nicky and Alix were married for just 24 years.  Do we automatically think that that "Long" time would cool their passion?
I've been married 22 years, hmmm.

I honestly had no idea about 19th centruy birth control and I can't honestly see that a m....n would be necessary bewteen a loving couple who knew each other so intimately for so long?  Forgive me FA, I
will say no more.

I promise not to expound further.

As to choosing the mother over the child, it was an expected choice in the Catholic religion even as little as 30 years ago.

My husband is Catholic and I am not.  After three miscarriages, we had one son.  When asked what to do, I told him, save our child, he said no way.  I married you and you will stay with me, no matter what.  Thankfully the doctors, saved both our son and me (just barely after 48 hours of labor).  This was in a Catholic hospital just 19 years ago.

We have not even thought about another child since.  The trauma is great on the mother's health and the father's psyche.  And we don't have an Empire to worry about!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lexi4 on August 25, 2005, 08:30:16 PM
Maybe she felt that 5 kids was enough  ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Nastya on October 11, 2005, 06:05:53 PM
i think alix didnt want to know the sex of the baby before and when it was born because of the stress might hurt the baby being born or in her stomach.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarastasia on October 19, 2005, 12:35:50 PM
Quote
visibly being pregnant
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/5a.jpg)


Was Alexandra pregnant with Olga in this photo? I mean, the couple still look quite young...

And is it me or does Nikolai look rather dopey in this photo? lol
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Laura Mabee on October 19, 2005, 05:32:12 PM
Quote
And is it me or does Nikolai look rather dopey in this photo? lol

I think he looks happy. That's not dopey to me..
I think she is pregnant, her waistline is quite big to not be...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 19, 2005, 06:08:45 PM
So, who was she pregnant with? It seems like we've "danced around" all four girls.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarastasia on October 20, 2005, 10:03:31 AM
Quote
I think he looks happy. That's not dopey to me..
I think she is pregnant, her waistline is quite big to not be...


Yes that was my actual question, Laura: "Who was she pregnant with?" not if she was pregnant.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on October 20, 2005, 10:15:04 AM
Interesting that she's wearing such a dark dress. Could that be a clue to the date -- was the court in mourning? Queen Victoria died in January of 1901, the year Anastasia was born.
Too bad we can't see if Nicky's wearing a black armband...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Laura Mabee on October 20, 2005, 11:01:14 AM
Sarushka makes a good point, 1901 looks appropriate for her age and dress
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 20, 2005, 11:03:02 AM
Quote

Was Alexandra pregnant with Olga in this photo? I mean, the couple still look quite young...

And is it me or does Nikolai look rather dopey in this photo? lol


LOVE THE PIC!!! they both look so young and happy and natural! one of the best photos i have seen of them  :) :) Thank you for posting it!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on October 20, 2005, 10:55:54 PM
Miechen's in mourning as well. Would she have put it on for QV when not in a court situation? I thought once we discussed it maybe being for GD George (Nicholas's brother) who died in 1899.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lanie on October 20, 2005, 11:10:30 PM
George died before Maria was born.  Maybe Alix was still recovering from the pregnancy?  Who knows...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on October 21, 2005, 12:00:09 AM
Quote
Miechen's in mourning as well. Would she have put it on for QV when not in a court situation? I thought once we discussed it maybe being for GD George (Nicholas's brother) who died in 1899.

Very possible! The photo Lisa posted also shows Alix in a dark dress, and it's labeled as 1899. But Nicky's definitely not wearing a black armband in that one -- would he have worn one "around the house" so to speak, or only in public?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on October 25, 2005, 10:32:09 AM
I disagree.. He is wearing the black armband on his left arm...
You can see it here, even if the photo is bad... :P
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/5bis.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on October 25, 2005, 01:29:12 PM
Quote
Interesting that she's wearing such a dark dress. Could that be a clue to the date -- was the court in mourning? Queen Victoria died in January of 1901, the year Anastasia was born.
Too bad we can't see if Nicky's wearing a black armband...


I think she looks too young to be pregnant with Anastasia and I wouldn't be too quick to judge that she is pregnant. If you look at the woman behind Nicholas, she is quite large as well. They clearly still used some type of bustle (did women still wear bustles in 1901? ???) when that picture was taken and she's wearing an overcoat over her dress, which gives the appearance of her being quite large. It seems rather odd that if Alexandra is indeed pregnant that she's out in public. I thought that it was improper for a woman to appear in public when she became visible?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Caleb on October 25, 2005, 04:25:42 PM
I know she wasn't pregnant in 1900, but could they be in mourning for the Duke of Edinburugh, or I suppose it does depend on when the photo was taken. Does it say what time of year this photo was taken, but I'm sure that it wasn't winter, perhaps, spring, summer, or fall. If it was fall, Alexandra could be pregnant with Anastasia. Wait... I just thought of something, could it be 1896 & Alexandra was pregnant with Tatiana & was in mourning for her uncle, the Prince of Battenberg.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on October 25, 2005, 04:40:53 PM
Quote
I know she wasn't pregnant in 1900, but could they be in mourning for the Duke of Edinburugh, or I suppose it does depend on when the photo was taken. Does it say what time of year this photo was taken, but I'm sure that it wasn't winter, perhaps, spring, summer, or fall. If it was fall, Alexandra could be pregnant with Anastasia. Wait... I just thought of something, could it be 1896 & Alexandra was pregnant with Tatiana & was in mourning for her uncle, the Prince of Battenberg.


Her being pregnant with Tatiana seems much more realistic to me. Alexandra looks much too young to be pregnant with Anastasia at this time.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 25, 2005, 07:59:07 PM
My mother saw the two pics and concluded that in these Alix was pregnant. She is not only "large", but my mother also claims that "she has the typical pregnant woman face". I must said that my mother not only gave birth twice, but that she helped many women in their pregnancy...and that she is a doctor.  ::)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on October 25, 2005, 08:57:59 PM
I understand bustles were in fashion in the 1870s, maybe through the first part of the 1880s, but by the time Alix was an adult, they were way out of fashion.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on October 27, 2005, 08:51:35 AM
Thanks for that last shot showing Nicky's left arm, Lisa!

Quote
-
in my book, it is said:"the photograph inscribed by the Tsar Zarskoe, 1899, May" So Alix was 8 months pregnant with Maria!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/5mai.jpg
This is the photo I was referring to regarding Nicky not wearing a black armband around the house.  :) Do you suppose it's from the same pregnancy?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 28, 2005, 01:33:53 PM
It might be, but i think they both look a bit older in that picture Sarah  ??? difficult to tell.  I think Alix is deffintly pregnant in that first pic, she looks stunning too!!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on November 01, 2005, 12:30:07 PM
I think it is 1985
(http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/7266/oaf8076ey.th.jpg) (http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf8076ey.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: julia.montague on November 01, 2005, 12:56:14 PM
Quote
I think it is 1985
(http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/7266/oaf8076ey.th.jpg) (http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf8076ey.jpg)

You mean 1895 ;D
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on November 01, 2005, 01:09:24 PM
Oh!!! Yes yes 1895... ;D

Jelisaveta, wa you julia.montagu?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ortino on November 02, 2005, 10:38:42 PM
Quote
Thanks for that last shot showing Nicky's left arm, Lisa!

This is the photo I was referring to regarding Nicky not wearing a black armband around the house.  :) Do you suppose it's from the same pregnancy?


I'm pretty sure the one in question is Alexandra pregnant with Olga. The one from the link I remember seeing was either Tatiana or Marie. I'm thinking more Tatiana at the moment.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on November 09, 2005, 08:00:17 AM
Quote
I think it is 1985
(http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/7266/oaf8076ey.th.jpg) (http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf8076ey.jpg)


It is not the fashion of the middle 1890's , but  of the end of the 1890's,or perhaps the very begining of the 1900's... I think the photo was taken between 1898 and 1901...
BTW, thanks for the full pic! ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Margarita Markovna on November 09, 2005, 08:06:52 AM
Quote
Oh!!! Yes yes 1895... ;D

Jelisaveta, wa you julia.montagu?


She was. If you hold your mouse over someone's display name and look at the status bar, then you can see what their username is. :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2005, 11:11:05 AM
French royalty never had very much privacy. Read any biograohy of Marie Antoinette and you will find out the truth of this.So I think the Royal Diaries is fairly accurate there. One feels rather sorry for them. I think Russian Royalty did have more privacy, in general. I am sure Alexandra dreaded having another girl, especially in her later pregnancies. A male heir was wanted, she was well aware.This account of Tatiana'a birth is unreliable, so it is hard to say about hand signals or anything else. But why did Carolly Erickson include this false source. I would love to know. I am reading another book called Born to rule about Queen Victoria's grandaughters, one of whom is Alexandra.It was published recently. And in the sources, in this same Marfa Mouchanow book. So this author used this inaccurate source too. ??? I thought Carolly Erickson was a good historian.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on November 13, 2005, 06:34:03 AM
I think the hand signals thing is a bit of an urban legend; something that was said by someone and that has been handed down through various sources until it has been taken as truth by some historians who shouldn't have written it in their books to confuse us!!!

I would imagine that Nicholas and the doctors would have wanted to break the news to Alexandra as gently as possible if she had another girl, but I think hand signals would have been completely unnecessary. As clockworkgirl said, Nicholas, if not Alexandra, would have been able to easily see the sex of the baby for himself before Alexandra and then break the news gently to her.  Hand signals don't really come into the equation.  I wonder where this idea first came from?  I've definitely read it in a couple of books, but I don't believe it for a minute.

Obviously it would have been very distressing for Alexandra to have given birth to another girl, especially by the time she got to Anastasia.  However, she would have had to find out the sex of her baby within seconds of the birth, so I don't see why anyone would have needed to signal anything to anyone, as Alexandra would have had to be told straight away anyway.  I just can't imagine being under such pressure to produce a boy; something that you can't control and yet are blamed for if you don't manage it.  Going through nine months of carrying a child and then the pain of labour, only to pretty much be told by your entire family and your country that you might as well not have bothered must have been hell.  


Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on November 14, 2005, 08:43:09 AM
Yes, hand signals are most likely a urban legend, I think. The source on this is largely inaccurate.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on November 16, 2005, 10:04:04 PM
There was a false pregnancy before Anastasia.  I believe at the time, the Tsars were in cahoots with Monsieur Philip.  It would seem that Alix wanted a child so much, her body responded as best it could.  It's not unheard of, nor is it rare among queens (the most famous sufferer I know of, besides Alix, was Katherine of Aragon).  I believe GD Olga Alexandrovna wrote that Alix went into labor, but all that came out was a lot of blood and an 'ovule' whatever that means.  At the time, Monsieur Philip said that Alix had infact been pregnant but she had gone to the doctors (she noticed that her body was not developing and shaping up as it should) and that broke the spell.  Basically, he said that Alix had killed the son that had been in her by not exhibiting proper faith.

I think I read this mainly in Radzinsky.  But some of it may have come from Massie.  I'm not sure.  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on November 17, 2005, 02:54:45 AM
Alexandra wouldn't have had time to have a miscarriage after Olga, would she?

Olga was born in November 1895 and Tatiana was born on May 29th, 1897.

That's 18 months between them, so I doubt Alexandra would have had time to conceive again, carry a baby for a couple of months, miscarry, then recover to conceive again in the space of 9 months (presuming that her pregnancy with Tatiana went to 9 months).

All of the children, apart from Anastasia and Alexei, have two years between them, so I don't think that Alexandra would have had a miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana.  She seems to take a while to conceive again after each pregnancy, so it's highly unlikely.

The only miscarriage I ever heard of was the so called 'phantom' pregnancy AFTER Anastasia's birth, hence why there is three years between Anastasia and Alexei, breaking the two year pattern between children.  This is the reason why I think she cannot have had another miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana, because her two year pattern between children is like clockwork other than when she DID have a 'miscarriage' if you can call it that.

Alexandra's 'phantom' pregnancy after Anastasia has been linked to anaemia.  I remember reading somewhere that Olga A said an 'ovule' came out.  I don't think she was pregnant for long.  In Carolly Erickson's book she made it out to be that Alexandra went almost to full term, sparking the rumours that Alexandra had had another daughter who had been spirited away.  That rumour is explored further in James Blair Lovell's book, and he claims he even met this hidden Grand Duchess, called Alexandra.  Utter rubbish, of course!

So, no.  Alexandra didn't have a miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana, but she definitely had some sort of 'phantom' pregnancy or miscarriage between Anastasia and Alexei.



Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2005, 09:56:36 AM
Yes, I used to believe that this happened but when it is pointed out that this comes from only source Carolly Erickson's erroneous book, because it is based on inaccurate sources, I don't anymore.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: julia.montague on November 18, 2005, 02:57:37 PM
Quote
Oh!!! Yes yes 1895... ;D

Jelisaveta, wa you julia.montagu?

Sorry, I just saw this  :P :-[.
17 days later ;D
And I think you already know it now.
But yeah, I was Julia.Montague, before
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: stacey on November 22, 2005, 12:33:28 AM
Not meaning to go off-topic, but as famous royal phantom-pregnancies were mentioned---another famous sufferer was Henry V111's daughter Mary (aka "Bloody Mary"). She never did have a child, to her immense regret, but during her unhappy marriage to Philip of Spain, she several times "believed" herself to be pregnant, to the point of having all the classic symptoms of a pregnancy. This was apparently due to her intense desire to have a child and an heir.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on November 22, 2005, 10:12:47 AM
Yes, you can certainly compare royalty, and often when I read something about one royal, I am thinking of another, that the same thing happened to. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on November 22, 2005, 01:16:07 PM
Quote
No, that's much later than having any of the children.  Looks like around c1908-1910.  After having five children, well, you're sure not gonna be as skinny!


True, Alix was not skinny after having five children, but not all women loose their waste after that many children. It all depends on one's genetic coding--Alix was a grand daughter of Queen Victoria, who, after nine children, was certainly not the skinny woman she had once been, and Alix inherited that from her grandmother. But my grandmother had five children, and she's still tiny today. Nicky's sister Ksenia had seven children, and if you look at pictures of her after all them, she's still extremely tiny, too. So some people keep their tiny waist after an army of children--not everyone gets....matronly in size. But even after the five children, though going downhill, I think Alix was still beautiful, and in some of her photographs later, one can still see the young Alix in her face.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: koloagirl on November 22, 2005, 11:25:06 PM
 :)

No offense to Queen Victoria (who I totally admire!), but
I think from looking at the very earliest photos of her
(I believe dated about 1848?) after one or possibly
two children, I don't think her body type was ever what
one could call "skinny" -- much to her chagrin.  At only
5' tall, she was always admiring of women such as Empress Eugenie, who were tall and slender.  

But to give her credit, she never seemed "down on herself" all the while knowing that she was far from the ideal beautiful woman of the time.  She had far too much dignity and awareness of who she was for that!  And after all, her "beloved Albert" seemed to love her just the way she was!

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on November 23, 2005, 12:13:53 PM
Well, I never meant to say Queen Vicky was ever 'skinny', but she was certainly slender enough before she had any children. Sorry for the misuse of words on my part. But she had been slender, no matter how short she was, and for some women, having children does that to one, and for other women--no matter their height, because that doesn't affect a person's ability to metabolize fats quickly--they can pop out an army of children and still remain small. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with women who don't--I don't know where I'll be when I have children some day--I've got one side like Queen Victoria's family and the other like Xenia...But anyway, I put this thread way off subject...Désolé!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: leushino on November 29, 2005, 11:53:41 AM
Quote

Was Alexandra pregnant with Olga in this photo? I mean, the couple still look quite young...

And is it me or does Nikolai look rather dopey in this photo? lol



Yes. I thought the very same thing: dopey expression on Nick's face. But hey, we all get those facial expressions in off moments. On the whole the man was rather good-looking. I think the camera just caught him in one of those "off" moments.

It seems to me that Alexandra is pregnant in this picture and my money is on Tatiana.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RomanovChica on November 29, 2005, 04:38:23 PM
i think she was beautiful...even pregnant :)She was radiant
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Laura_ on December 01, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
yes this is true,she is very beautiful in these photos:)
Laura
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Mander on January 01, 2006, 07:59:43 PM
So Alexandra most likely did have a miscarriage between Anastasia and Alexei but it was nothing like the 9 months that Erikson leads us to believe in her book? When I read that, I wondered how on earth someone could think they were 9 months pregnant. I would be a bit concerned if I never felt one kick!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 03, 2006, 11:16:19 AM
Quote
I would be a bit concerned if I never felt one kick!


Well, eventually she was so she consulted a doctor (who was quite flumoxed by the pregnancy).  The mystic of choice at that time, I believe Monsieur Phillippe, said later that this decision to consult a doctor showed Alexandra's lack of divine faith in him (M. Phillippe) and God which is why the pregnancy was ended and there wasn't even a child.  But if she had continued to have faith, there would have been a child and it would have been the long awaited heir.    

This pregnancy by suggestion goes a long way, in my mind, of proving what a religious fanatic Alexandra was (and the desperation point she had reached).  She entrusted this one man (Phillippe) so absolutely much that she created a pregnancy in her mind based on the power of his suggestions and whimsical promises.  And shame on him for playing with the poor deluded woman's mind like that!  

But I do wonder what would have happened if the pregnancy had gone on without Alexandra consulting a physician - what would Phillippe's excuse have been then, when it all turned up bust?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 16, 2006, 11:00:24 AM
I don't know what his excuse would have been, it would have been interesting, but these kinds of charlatans wanted things to continue, so they were very creative with ideas for excuses, unfortunatly.And ALexandra wanted to believe in this, and these people, so who knows? ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Joy0318 on January 16, 2006, 08:57:49 PM
Never even thought of this question before.

Maybe they tried to have another child but were unable.

Maybe they chose not to have another child because it might endanger Alix's health.  Her 5  pregancies were very hard on her.

Maybe they thought five kids was enough already.

Maybe they did not want to risk having another child with hemophilia. After seeing all the suffering Alexei had to go through perhaps thay did not want to subject another child to it.


Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 17, 2006, 10:52:40 AM
Five children seem like enough to me, and I suppose there were other factors, but that reason seems to stand out to me,anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on January 18, 2006, 07:40:28 AM
I honestly think that Alix would be unlikely to want to try again and have another son with hemophilia or another daughter.

They probably were not aware that the father determines the sex of the child and like monarchs of old (think HenryVIII) thought that the mother gave the king his son.

And, too, the stress of the hemophilia on her and Nicholas might have led to other complications, even if they were just psychological. (I am trying to be delecate here)

Alix was 33 when Alexis was born.  Who knows what mental state or physical state she was in at that time.
Remember menopause can be brought on early by a number of physical and mental abnormalities.  And while 33 is young for that, 40 or 45 is not.

It does seem strange though that after producing a child about every two years, that it would come to and end after Alexis.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 18, 2006, 08:37:10 AM
They  had four beautiful daughters and the long awaited heir, and how were they to know if another son would be healthy, or have hemophilia, which would have been devastasting to Alexandra, and they most likely thought they had enough daughters. And it is hard to know if Alexandra could have pulled through another pregnancy with both her and the baby in good health, so this uncertaintly no doubt contributed to them not having another child. Having a another hemophiliac son, and and difficult pregnancy were Alexandra or the child could have died, no doubt did not seem appealing. And it wasn't necessary considering the had the heir, a beautiful and appealing child, and the four daughters, who were intelligent, healthy, and attractive. With this, why risk Alexandra's life, or her being devastated if another hemophiliac son was born? There simply wasn't a reason, so they didn't. Also, it is possible that Alexandra simply could not bear any more children physically.Anyway, they had a wonderful family. :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: niobe on January 18, 2006, 08:43:09 AM
Quote
I honestly think that Alix would be unlikely to want to try again and have another son with hemophilia or another daughter.

They probably were not aware that the father determines the sex of the child and like monarchs of old (think HenryVIII) thought that the mother gave the king his son.

And, too, the stress of the hemophilia on her and Nicholas might have led to other complications, even if they were just psychological. (I am trying to be delecate here)

Alix was 33 when Alexis was born.  Who knows what mental state or physical state she was in at that time.
Remember menopause can be brought on early by a number of physical and mental abnormalities.  And while 33 is young for that, 40 or 45 is not.

It does seem strange though that after producing a child about every two years, that it would come to and end after Alexis.

As this was a very stressful time (ie the arrival of Alexei and the worsening political situation) perhaps it was not Alix who had problems. Why are such difficulties always seen to be with the woman in a partnership?
Niobe
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 18, 2006, 10:09:31 AM
It does seem like women are sometimes more negatively regarded than the men in a parternship, but as well, Alexandra was a more complicated character than Nicholas, and this why she often attracts negative attention. But strong women often seem to put more people off than strong men do. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: niobe on January 18, 2006, 10:41:19 AM
Quote
It does seem like women are sometimes more negatively regarded than the men in a parternship, but as well, Alexandra was a more complicated character than Nicholas, and this why she often attracts negative attention. But strong women often seem to put more people off than strong men do. ;)

I was actually referring- how shall I put this delicately- to men having medical problems as well as women!
Niobe
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 18, 2006, 11:04:46 AM
That's true, but I doubt it was in this case... ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grace on January 18, 2006, 05:08:47 PM
I find the title of this thread quite odd...how many children was Alexandra expected to have?  ???

She clearly had difficult pregnancies (or so she claimed).  She probably would have had less than five, in my opinion, had she produced a son earlier.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on January 18, 2006, 06:42:09 PM
niobe When I said I was trying not to be indelicate, I meant just what you said.  Maybe Nicholas went through a period of ED as we call it now.

Also, I agree with grace.  If a son had come earlier in the  succession of children, then perhaps she would have stopped sooner.

I think, though, looking at her mother and grandmother, there might have been no stopping at all.  Large families were quite common and with infant mortality an all too frequent sad fact, parents had many more children than we consider "normal" today.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 19, 2006, 09:58:28 AM
The title of this thread is rather odd, because, after all, she did have a lovely family which few others could lay claim to. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grace on January 19, 2006, 03:02:52 PM
Quote
The title of this thread is rather odd, because, after all, she did have a lovely family which few others could lay claim to. ;)


Imperial Angel, I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Many other royals (and non-royals) of the period had lovely families also... ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarfan on January 19, 2006, 05:24:53 PM
There were plenty of male Romanovs who could inherit the throne, and several tsars were not the first-born sons of their predecessors:  Peter the Great became sole tsar only when an older brother died; Alexander I was succeeded by a brother; Alexander II was succeeded by a second son.

Yet, given that history, Nicholas and Alexandra seemed obsessed with the notion that Alexei had to be the next tsar, despite all indications he would have neither the health nor the longevity for the job.  Before Alexei was born they explored the feasibility of changing the succession laws to make Olga the ruler to prevent the throne from passing to Nicholas' brother Michael.

I don't think this obsession with keeping the throne out of the hands of lateral relations has ever been satisfactorily explained.  It certainly had not similarly troubled Nicholas' predecessors.

Given, however, the fact that they so determinedly wanted their own offspring on the throne, I cannot imagine that they stopped having children just because they had a "lovely family".  Unless they were totally deluded, they had to know that lovely family offered very shaky prospects for producing the next tsar -- something by which Alexandra seemed to measure her worth.  

It seems unlikely to me that she would have stopped having children unless she either was not able to withstand another pregnancy and/or she feared that having another hemophiliac son would play further into the hands of those who blamed her for bringing hemophilia into the Russian imperial family.

I know it's tempting to moon over the saintly, beautiful, kind, domestically blissful, pitifully misunderstood Nicholas and Alexandra.  But the hard fact is that they took enormous political risks in dealing with Rasputin and in alienating other family members and senior government officials in an attempt to keep the throne away from lateral relations.

While these things might not have directly brought on the Russian revolution, when that revolution did come knocking at the door it was those things that left Nicholas on his own in answering it.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 19, 2006, 05:51:04 PM
I think the fact that hemophilia had arrived within the family was surely the reason they stopped having children. After all, two of her sister's sons were afflicted. The handwriting was on the wall.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 20, 2006, 08:24:32 AM
There were no doubt many reasons why Alexandra might not have had more children. It seems to me they had accomplished alot with their other children, and had fulfilled their dynastic and personal goals. They did have a lovely family, and as you pointed out it is true that other royals did too, but there is just something about the children of the Imperial Family, a more special quality than most.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarfan on January 20, 2006, 10:11:38 AM
What was that "special quality" the five Romanov children had that other royal children lacked?  Since you're referring to them as a group instead of as individuals, I assume it was not an individual quality but something that attached to them collectively.

Other than their captivity and the mode of their collective deaths (which only shaped or defined them in the final months of their lives) what made them such standouts among royal progeny?

Are you sure that in looking backward at them through the lens of their murders, you are not attributing qualities to them in life that are really artifacts of the pity we feel for their brutal endings?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 20, 2006, 11:14:37 AM
I tthink they each had special individual stories, and also, the story of their lives is very interesting, and we are never on our own with our personality, but our lives make things more interesting beyond a doubt. That is true of the last imperial family-that their lives and stories are worth remembering, because both are interesting. Perhaps it is personal, in that for some reason, they have the qualities that make royalty appeal almost like celebrities, like Princess Diana.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 20, 2006, 12:48:19 PM
Dear IA,

Hmm. Well, I'm sure they could be very nice --- with some minor reservations about Alexei and Anastasia, who had reputations within their own "circle" as holy terrors --- and they were physically attractive. That being said, if it hadn't been for their appalling deaths, I'm not sure that they would be remembered at all today, save perhaps for Alexei. Their cachet is horrible; they suffered simply because they were the children of Nicholas and Alexandra.

The reason for posting this is because I can't see Alexandra (and Nicholas, it couldn't have been a unilateral decision) giving up the desire for another boy unless there was a compelling reason. Fear of hemophilia is a compelling reason. I think your feelings about the family would actually be an argument for having more children, since they were consistently hitting the jackpot in terms of beauty and charm.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 20, 2006, 12:54:59 PM
Yes, to me hemophilia is a compelling reason not to have more children, and I am sure it was one of the reasons, if not the reason. Alexei's hemophilia devastated Alix so much.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Joy0318 on January 21, 2006, 09:51:51 AM
Quote
I think the fact that hemophilia had arrived within the family was surely the reason they stopped having children. After all, two of her sister's sons were afflicted. The handwriting was on the wall.



I think you are right LC.  personally I think this is the reason why she stopped having children after Alexei. She  did not want to risk giving birth to another son who might very well be born with this incurable and sometimes fatal disease. She witnesses first hand all the pain and suffering the boy went through and she did not want to risk putting this agony on another innocent child.  I don't blame her.  I think I would have been the same way.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on January 21, 2006, 05:54:44 PM
I agree with Tsarfan.  If they had not died in such a cruel and unusual mananer, we probably would not even be on this site.

How many of the other numerous great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria are so revered and so remembered with their lives so examined?

It is almost certain that we imbue them with qualities that they did not posess simply because of the haunting silence that hung over their murders for so many years.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on January 22, 2006, 06:52:01 PM
Yes, it could  be their haunting story is what perhaps compels some to see that they had quaulities never actually theirs although they are of course very interesting. But it is the tragic end of their story that ensures some of their rememberance at least in such a popular way, outside the realms of merely academic history, and into the realm of popular history.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 03, 2006, 04:42:04 AM
I just believe that the reason why Alix didn't have anymore children was because she already had an haemophiliac son which devastated her and imagine if she gave birth to another son who also turned out to have haemophilia. That would be so stressful! And she already had four daughters and her health wasn't at its best. So they probably thought that that was enough. And plus, Nicholas and Alexandra did contraception after the birth of the tsarevich. Ok, sorry, I don't want to go too far in personal details but that's what I definitely believe about the fact of Alix having no more children.

Lovy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 03, 2006, 08:38:55 AM
I n my opinion, the last poster is correct, it seems sensible to say those were the reasons they had no more children.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarfan on February 03, 2006, 10:29:45 AM
Quote
It seems to me they had accomplished alot with their other children, and had fulfilled their dynastic and personal goals.


What exactly had they accomplished with their other children, other than having them?  By that standard of accomplishment, they were outstripped by Xenia and several other royal families.

And what exactly were the dynastic goals they had fulfilled?  They had produced a lone male heir with a debilitating disease, and they had been backed down from their earlier attempt to establish female succession.

I cannot understand why being in the throes of unbridled admiration should cause one to ignore facts completely.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 03, 2006, 10:40:48 AM
I don't admire the Romanovs without being aware that they had faults, and made mistakes-they did. No one can be human without making mistakes. So I am even thinking of changing my user name to reflect this. I agree with the last poster who said about the reasons they thought.. It seems they had accomplished their goal of having a male heir, and they now knew that if they had another son, he might have hemophilia, so that was reason enough. They most likely thought they did the best they could- and that is just my opinion. A male heir was the main thing..
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grace on February 03, 2006, 02:40:47 PM
Quote

What exactly had they accomplished with their other children, other than having them?  By that standard of accomplishment, they were outstripped by Xenia and several other royal families.

And what exactly were the dynastic goals they had fulfilled?  They had produced a lone male heir with a debilitating disease, and they had been backed down from their earlier attempt to establish female succession.

I cannot understand why being in the throes of unbridled admiration should cause one to ignore facts completely.


Yes.  Agree totally.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: leushino on February 03, 2006, 09:17:07 PM
Quote

Yes.  Agree totally.



You've also expressed my feelings on the subject, Tsarfan.  :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on February 04, 2006, 06:05:44 PM
I believe that their dynastic and personal goals were one in the same.  To produce a male heir.

Haven't we all read that Nicholas had to take a walk after Anastasia was born to put on a good face for Alix?

If Alexis had been born first and still had hemophilia, they might have gone on to try again just as Ena and Alphonso of Spain did. (I believe that their hemophiliac son was not the first child, but near to the top of the birth order.)

Alix was 32 when Alexis was born.  Maybe that had something to do with it as well.  Having children in one's 20s is much easier and safer than having them in one's 30s and 40s.

leuchino and Georgiy where does the Orthodox Church stand on saving the mother or the child if the choice has to be made during birth?

The Catholic Church (at least at that time) was definately on the side of saving the child and letting the mother die.

No disrespect, but leaving a motherless child seems to be a hard thing.  But none the less, that is what was required.

I am sure that Nicholas would have found it hard to part with Alix (as my husband would be with me) even if that meant that a healthy baby boy would be born.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 07, 2006, 11:03:59 PM
Does anyone have anymore details on when a doctor came to Nicholas at the time of Alexei's birth and asked him in case of an emergency, would they save the child or the tsarina, and Nicholas replied the child if it was a boy?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 08, 2006, 08:15:32 AM
At this point, a male heir was badly wanted and needed, but I am sure that Nicholas would find life without Alix very hard, so it is hard to say. I can't remember reading anything of this sort, but I am sure there is a source that would say somewhere, to some degree.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 08, 2006, 11:28:15 AM
I think the family, and thus Alix were aware of the hemophilia, usually known at the time as ''the bleeding disease''. But they did not have the medical understanding of it that we have, they just knew the basics, but they knew enough to know it ran in the family, and that the mother was responsible ( most of the time). But they didn't know as much as we know, and they might not have wanted to face the issue. The thing about female carriers bleeding more is certainly informative, if Marie was one then this might be a sign of that-which would have been sad for her, given that she wanted marriage and motherhood.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on February 08, 2006, 11:44:14 AM
I am sorry to have confused anyone.  I wasn't saying that a choice HAD to be made at the time of Alexis's birth.  I was just wondering where the Orthodox Church stands on such a thing.  If such a decision should have had to have been made.

I was comparing what I know of The Catholic Church doctrine to what I was wondering about the Orthodox Church doctrine.

I hope that I haven't begun a search for a scenario that,( I far as I know) didn't happen.

Please accept my apologies for any unintentional confusion.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: leushino on February 08, 2006, 09:07:02 PM
The Church from the very beginning has been opposed to abortion. In the rare case, however, of a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child, a decision must be made for the life of the unborn child or the life of the mother on the basis of the consequences. In most cases, this probably means that an abortion would be allowed, but the decision should never be taken alone and without consultation of a spritual and moral character.

~~ taken from Fr Stanley Harakas' work: The Orthodox Church: 455 Questions and Answers
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tania+ on February 08, 2006, 09:28:30 PM
As an Orthodox Christian, personally, I'm in full agreement with the church in this matter. If there are no health crisis, then I'm in agreement. I somehow can't see why responsible actions can't be taken in this matter. It's so sad to see women taking abortion after abortion, after abortion, just endless abortions. I think men should also be involved in taking full responsibility.

Both women, men should be fully involved in making sure unwanted children are not born from their mistakes by taking every precaution.[married or unmarried couples] [I was rather shocked about two weeks ago, when a physician in the South was interviewed. He said that he had performed over at least 30,000 perhaps more abortions]. That's a real loss of lives imho.

When I think of how human beings purchase accident insurance, [car, etc.] so they won't have to pay for catistrophic accidents, or to that of loss of life, then I wonder how much people really love life, or want to protect life, or is it sadly only to protect their financial assets ? Even here, so many are paying.

Makes me wonder...how serious life really is. Just my thoughts.

Tatiana+




Quote
The Church from the very beginning has been opposed to abortion. In the rare case, however, of a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child, a decision must be made for the life of the unborn child or the life of the mother on the basis of the consequences. In most cases, this probably means that an abortion would be allowed, but the decision should never be taken alone and without consultation of a spritual and moral character.

~~ taken from Fr Stanley Harakas' work: The Orthodox Church: 455 Questions and Answers

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on February 09, 2006, 04:30:43 AM
Here's a thought; maybe Alexandra just never happened to get pregnant again?

I am my parent's third child, and after me, my mother would have liked a fourth, but she just never got pregnant again.  She was 33, the same age Alexandra was when she had Alexei, when I was born.  It is well documented that by the mid 30's, female fertility drops drastically.  Women are designed to be at their most fertile in their 20's, when Alexandra got pregnant with the most frequency.  The most likely reason Alexandra and Nicholas didn't have any more children is because both of them were getting on in terms of the biological clock, and their fertility wasn't what is was.  

Also, stress causes women to stop ovulating.  I think all women know what I'm saying here; when you're going through periods of stress, you become irregular.  Everyone knows how stressed and ill Alexandra was, almost permanently, after Alexei was born.  That had to muck up her cycle, and if she wasn't ovulating frequently, it would have been very difficult for her to get pregnant.

Regarding the condoms, I don't believe they can have been N&As.  Why would they need condoms of different sizes? I don't think (trying to put this delicately) that Nicholas' 'organ' shall I say, would have changed size in order for him to have needed different sizes of condoms to choose from, surely?!? I've never heard of THAT happening! And who knew condoms existed then? I certainly didn't!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: niobe on February 09, 2006, 09:52:36 AM
They were certainly available from the mid 19th century.
Niobe
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on February 09, 2006, 10:17:47 AM
Quote
They were certainly available from the mid 19th century.
Niobe



Well I never.

Who would have thunk it; Victorians having sex for pleasure???? ;)

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 09, 2006, 10:23:36 AM
We don't always think that these were available, but actually they were. And it isn't very relevant to debate whose they were. Perhaps they were not so widely used back then, so we don't think so much of such things as condoms being available. Anyway, perhaps Alexandra just never happened to concieve again, given such factors as her health and age.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on February 09, 2006, 10:50:37 PM
My sister and I are eight years apart and I was a very big surprise.  My parents had no intention of having another child, but did nothing to prevent it either.  So for eight years nothing happened, and then voila!!

leuchino I wasn't thinking about abortion, but about the choce of saving the child or the mother if complications arose during delivery.  Would that be abortion?  Or just a necessary medical decision to save one or the other?  I have always believed, especially if there are already children in the family, that the mother's life would be better saved so that she could contiune to take care of her family.

I know that this is a very touchy religious question, but I was just wondering.

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on February 09, 2006, 11:24:57 PM
I believe in this case the FA is incorrect.  If both parents have to carry a recessive gene as he has stated, then Nicholas would have had to have the defective recessive gene.  I don't believe there was any hemoplhlia in the Russian Royal Family before Alix moved in.

Also, there was none in Hesse before Alice moved in.

Was there any in the House of Hohelzollern before Vicky moved in?

The theory that Victoria's father was a hemophilac or a recessive carrier supposes that the Duke of Kent was not her father at all.  Another can of worms altogether.

Belochka thank you for your expert post.  It sorts out a lot.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 10, 2006, 08:12:30 AM
Explaining the medical intricacies of hemophilia seems to be really complicated so say the least-you read this, and this and this.. so you are not really sure, which makes one more aware that the royalty of the time most likely did not understand everything either.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Joy0318 on February 11, 2006, 07:01:06 PM
Quote
Explaining the medical intricacies of hemophilia seems to be really complicated so say the least-you read this, and this and this.. so you are not really sure, which makes one more aware that the royalty of the time most likely did not understand everything either.


Agreed! Although this discussion here has helped to explain it a bit more, the question of  exactly how hemophilia is transmitted has always confused me. Maybe because I  always found biology to be uninteresting and I didn' t play that close attention in class.  Science has never fascinated me the way history  has. But y'all here have explained it better than any teacher ever did. ;)

And I really don't think Alix knew hat much about it either. Sometimes I wonder of it even crossed her mind that she might be a carrier since her brother and uncle died from it.   She probably didn't think much about it if any.  I do think that she blamed herself  for Alexei's condition and felt terrible about it seeing how she knew he had inherited it from her. I wonder if she ever discussed with OTMA the possibilities that they might be carriers.

I've often  wondered too about which of the Grand Duchess were carriers and what would have happened had they married and had children.  Alexei's sons would have all been normal and all his daughters carriers but what about OTMA? If Grand Duchess Olga had been a carrier and married the heir to the British throne hemophilia might  be now affecting the British Royal family. And  I had never heard about Marie bleeding so bad after having her tonsils out.  Could she have been a carrier?  Sad because she so wanted to get married and have a large family and her health may not have permitted her to bear a lot of children.  :'(

Yes, the "what if's "  of history are interesting.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on February 12, 2006, 06:22:30 PM
It was written in another thread that when William wanted to marry Ella, Vicky had a study commissioned on intermarriage and hemophilia. It was enough to convince her that the risk shouldn't be taken to encourage the marriage. So there was some information out there--I wonder why this particular study wasn't shared.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Nadezhda Edvardovna on February 12, 2006, 06:42:56 PM
I'd always found it rather baffling that anyone in the 1890's was unaware of the risk of marrying into a family in which hemophilia had manifested.  I just figured they were risk-takers, as are so many of us today.  

The basic principles of genetics had been discovered in the 1860's by Mendel.  But apparently they weren't well disseminated until after 1900, by which point for the IF, it was way too late.  This would certainly support the suggestion that any study   commissioned by Empress Frederick in anticipation of a possible match between the future Kaiser and Ella would not include Mendel's work, which would seem to be a dead giveaway. (see http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm; this is only one of many, many sources I've found in college websites indicating the 20th century as the "discovery" of Mendel's works.) Pax et bonum, N.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on February 12, 2006, 08:45:20 PM
Quote
I'd always found it rather baffling that anyone in the 1890's was unaware of the risk of marrying into a family in which hemophilia had manifested.  I just figured they were risk-takers, as are so many of us today.  
 


Yes. Then as now, love is blind and people always think that 'bad things' only happen to other people. I doubt very much when they were 'courting' they thought about their genetic potentials. Considering their position, maybe they or their parents should have.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 13, 2006, 08:50:43 AM
It is true that the scientific realities were known, but not widely until after 1900, and the subject was hard to grasp. And it is unlikely members of these Royal families fully understood it. Anyway, it is true that we always think bad things happen to other people, even if, in the case of hemophilia, they are there in the carriers just waiting to surprise them. Sometimes bad things can be ignored, but their fundamental reality never can.. that quote from NE summons it up perfectly. And it would have been a tragedy if Marie was a carrier.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Joy0318 on February 13, 2006, 09:48:53 AM
I agree with Georgiy. Somehow I don't think Nicky or Alix thought  about her being a hemophilia carrier when they were courting. They were both young and deeply in love with each other.  Bad things were probably the last things that were going through their minds.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 13, 2006, 10:09:38 AM
No, I don't think they worried about that either. Everything was going well, and the bad seemed far off. Perhaps in this age, they would have thought of it when its medical impact is more well known, but back then they didn't, because of this, and because they were happy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 13, 2006, 10:27:04 AM
Yes, the mother's life would most likely have been saved, but who can tell? And it is perhaps this possible eventuality that made Alx shy away from having more children, or perhaps it just didn't happen, if she desired it or not. I don't think that saving the mother's life would be considered abortion in most cases by most people, although that's just my opinion. To me, it doesn't fit the definition of that, but this is a rather touchy question. Anybody else have any other ideas?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 14, 2006, 07:16:34 PM
About all that "stuff" that was found in N & A's wardrobe: I believe that they did belong to the two of them, as they had a very passionate relationship, and not to mention physical, judging from their letters (Alexandra once wrote: "Four months we have not slept together"). And plus, when Alexei, their final child was born, Alexandra was 32 years old and Nicholas was 36. They already had four daughters and a haemophiliac son, so I don't think I would want to have more children if I were them. But I can tell they had an intimate sex life together, so really, no surprise that all those things were in the wardrobe. What I find funny is that they took it with them to captivity. Couldn't the guards have burst in any moment, and Alexei slept in their bedroom?

I AM TRULY SORRY FOR SPEAKING THIS, BUT I CAN'T HELP BUT SAY MY OPINION.

:'(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 14, 2006, 09:11:21 PM
Well they were rather intimate, it was in their letters. ("Please do not have Mme Becker when I return home..." etc)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 14, 2006, 11:25:30 PM
Yep, Ritka, they definitely were. Like I said in my last post, Alexandra once wrote: "Four months we have not slept together". And as I also said ... IN CAPTIVITY ??? Is there a chance?

As you see, I've got a problem with saying what I feel. I can't even help saying it if it's ... you know, personal?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 15, 2006, 08:36:06 AM
yes, they did enjoy a very intimate relationshio, and I don't doubt those things were theirs, although it isn't surprising given what we know of their relationship, letters, etc. And perhaps they brought these things for a future time, or perhaps it was for when they were imprisoned. It really doesn't matter that much to me.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 15, 2006, 10:52:48 PM
Ok, this is going to sound a bit naughty ... Alexandra once wrote to Nicholas, while he was away at the front, saying: "Four months we have not slept together". How long were they imprisoned? A year and a few months or something like that? I'm pretty sure that they did do it while imprisoned AND, just like you said imperial angel, were probably saving all that "stuff" for later, too. The only thing I find funny is: The guards, they could have burst in any moment, and Alexei, who was sleeping in their bedroom.

:'(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Speedycat on February 16, 2006, 09:15:04 AM
I don't know if this one has been posted yet.  The caption is in Russian and says the date 1894, but that would be before they were married.  Maybe it is just a reference to an earlier date.  She does look to me to be pregnant here...or is it just the cut of the jacket?  I remember seeing photos of Alexandra Georgievna, Princess Pavel in similar "cut-away" style short jackets in the late 1890's. In other photos of this style though, the blouse is usually tucked in at the very narrow waistband.  It seems here Alix is wearing and ruffly blouse outside of the waistband of the skirt.  From the youthfulness of Nicky and Alix it may be she is pregnant here.

(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7792/pregnant0qv.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on February 16, 2006, 11:07:54 AM
I must say, she looks great in that picture.  And also very pregnant.  I do not think it's the cut of the jacket, look at the way it flows (but, I could be wrong).  And also, notice the position of her hands.  They seem awkwardly placed as if to make room for her stomach.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on February 16, 2006, 10:49:14 PM
I have always wondered about the guards and the girls and Alexis and the unlocked doors.

I think that the girls and Alexis would have respected their parents' privacy, but it would seem that the guards would have used the opportunity to embarass and humiliate them.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 17, 2006, 12:11:18 AM
What do you mean "humiliating them"?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on February 17, 2006, 12:38:35 AM
I meant that the guards could have walked in at any time.

Alix was so proper a Victorian that she would not even allow her maids to see her without a dressing gown.

I think that it would have been humiliating to have someone walk in at any time, but especially during (I am trying to be circumspect and discreet).

I sure wouldn't like it.  

That's all I meant.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 17, 2006, 01:47:06 AM
Well, they must have found a way...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna on February 17, 2006, 06:01:54 AM
Lovy what exactly do you want to know? When, what and where? As a happily married couple -they made love- had a healthy sexlife. Good for them, totally normal, so what else is there so interesting about it?

Anna
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2006, 10:32:17 AM
 I have never seen that photo before. They do look very young, so it could be 1895, perhaps, when Olga was born. I think it doesn't date from after 1899. It looks like to me she is pregnant, anyway. And 1894 is most likely refering to the date of their marriage in my opinion. Anybody else who knows anything about this photo should post..
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 17, 2006, 10:37:33 AM
I think it's probably when she was pregnant with Olga in 1895. I've never seen the photo before but she looks young like she did before marriage.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2006, 10:41:47 AM
Yes, I think it was when she was expecting Olga as well, she does look very young.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2006, 10:46:12 AM
Yes, it was risky, but when you really want to do something you find a way, and so they most likely did, and good for them. It is sad they had to worry about the guards like that, but in their last place of imprisonment, there wasn't that much privacy, and they had to accept that. I don't think the guards were all that respective of privacy though.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Speedycat on February 17, 2006, 02:27:34 PM
I do not have a great knowledge of Russian, but I can give a few details of the book where I found this photo.  It is published in St. Petersburg in 1998 with the author of ( my translation here is terrible) V.A. Bukhanov.  It is called (again, my poor translation) "Nikolai II, Straniste zhiznii".  If ay Russian speakers can make any sense of that, I welcome their input!

The caption is translated as follows(my translation of the Russian spellings) "Velikii knyaz Nikolai Aleksandrovich s nevestoi Alisoi Gessinkoi. Koburg. 20 aprelya 1894 g."  So it says 20 April 1894, the time of their engagement.  But I think it is later...shortly before the birth of Tatiana perhaps.  I am basing this solely on the style of Alix's dress. At the time Olga was born, in the mid 1890's, the sleeves of womens dresses/jackets were the huge "leg-o-mutton" style.  As the decade progressed, the sleeve puffiness became smaller.  By the color of the dress, I guess Spring or Summer.  Also the parasol  would be used to shade her from the Spring/Summer sun.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2006, 02:46:01 PM
It was on the cover of a book over a decade ago. (When I worked in the University of DE library, we discarded dust jackets so I snagged that one!) I can't remember the title though.

I wouldn't think it was the engagement, or even around it, because Alix had the 'poodle fringe' when the engagement photos were taken.  Her hair is swept back here.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 17, 2006, 05:20:46 PM
Dear, of course I don't want to know about when and where. It's perfectly normal, of course, for them to do so. They were a married couple and would have found a way (maybe similar to that scene in 'Nicholas and Alexandra'). But they loved each other very much and I hope one day to have a happy married life like theirs.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grace on February 17, 2006, 06:15:38 PM
It is interesting that they managed to have such an active private life with all of Alexandra's alleged ailments - sciatica, heart troubles etc.

I would have thought that these would have curtailed her activities in this regard somewhat.  Obviously not.  ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on February 17, 2006, 07:20:34 PM
It's not their engagement; besides what looks to be a pregnancy, they are wearing their wedding rings!  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tania+ on February 17, 2006, 11:19:59 PM
I 'looks' as if she may be, but it's hard to tell. But she does indeed look beautiful, and I can't get past those beautiful eyes. She must have been quite stunning in person. Thanks for the picture.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Speedycat on February 18, 2006, 07:50:07 PM
Yes GD Ella, the hair style is often an excellent way to date a photo.  Most Royal ladies very rarely had a "bad hair day" as they had maids and dressers to carefully style them to match the fashion of the day.

Both Alix and Nicky look stunning in this photo.  Considering what it took to take a photo in those days...no instant or digital stuff here...to hold such a beautiful gaze at the camera for an extended amount of time amazes me.  I always look like a deer caught in headlights in every photo..YUCK!  :o
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Booklady on February 19, 2006, 06:00:09 PM
The exposure time in the 1890's was probably much shorter than in the 1860's, as evidenced by the many informal snapshots of the family during this time.  I'm sure Alexandra was pregnant in hundreds of photos (just not very far along at the time).  Pregnant royals have always hidden themselves behind others for formal photos also. :-[
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 20, 2006, 08:48:46 AM
Apparently not at this point in time anyway, although it might have earlier, we don't know.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 20, 2006, 08:52:07 AM
It is a lovely photo, and posed well. It could be later than Olga, but they do look very very young, and this clothing is summer/ spring wear, and that woundn't perhaps fit Olga who was born in November. I think what the last post said about photos is particularly true.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on February 24, 2006, 01:30:42 AM
With all that personal stuff found in the Nicholas and Alexandra's Ipatiev House bedroom - I remember reading a couple of books where some guards were going to search Nicholas and Alexandra's suitcase and Alexandra said: "This is an insult!" I also remember reading the guards searching the suitcase somewhere else, but then it doesn't mention what was found. It's clear that Nicholas and Alexandra didn't want anyone to find what they had (well, who wouldn't?), so perhaps all that stuff did belong to them. Just saying...  :P
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 10:13:54 AM
Yes, I think it did belong to them. As well,  no doubt they didn't want these things to be found like most people, especially by such vile people as the guards. I for one don't blame them, and I don't think anyone else would either. Of course, they had other reasons not to want the guards going through their stuff, there were other things that they woudn't have wanted anybody to handle. No doubt they feared for the possible damage of things as well. All in all, it is understandable they felt this way. Most people like some privacy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on February 24, 2006, 10:17:40 AM
OK, Nicholas and Alexandra were married.  It's hardly earth shattering news or some sort of unspeakable secret that they *gasp* had sex once in a while.  There really is no need to make a controversy about it.  God forbid that a married couple might actually be intimate with one another!

Whether the condoms and other items were theirs or not, it doesn't really matter.  We know they had a sex life, and if they continued to have one in the Ipatiev house, then kudos to them. I'm sure they had more privacy than the sensationalised 'guards leering in at them from the doorways' accounts lead us to think.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 10:25:54 AM
Yes, it is true that we know Nicholas and Alexandra were married, and given that they were passionate about each other, had a healthy sex life. If those condoms were theirs that is understandable, and not really that much of an issue except for the surprise when you first read that in FOTR.

FOTR really gave us a great deal of info, but I was rather surprised that they would mention that not because of the fact, but just that they would mention it in a book at all. What was anybody else's opinion when they read this? I can't think of any other object for debate except that. We know they had relations with one another, more than likely used contraception, which may be why or part of the reason they had no other children. That's a good sumning up of it for me. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on February 24, 2006, 10:39:15 AM
FOTR's main purpose was to shock.  They wanted to give as many sensational details as possible, debunk the myths and so on.

They put the condoms in for that reason.  They wanted to shake up people's common perceptions of these people as the idols they have become.  I think they wanted the public to see that they were normal people, just like us, with normal desires, and the fact that they had condoms shows that.  It makes them real people in our eyes, people we can associate with and understand as humans rather than a myth.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 10:54:55 AM
Yes, thanks for your opinion on FOTR. I think you hit the nail on the head. And this is why they included the guard incident with Marie which is the subject of debates in other threads. That proved to be based on less than complete evidence, and was defintely sensationlized. The fact of the condoms seems more factual while being sensation. Personally, I don't really believe sensation belongs in history, unless that's what it was. Anyway the sex lives of famous figures from the past do make them seem more human I suppose.
But unless that is what they were known for ( some other royalty comes to mind), it isn't that relevant in the case of Nicholas and Alexandra and the Ipatiev house condoms.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on February 24, 2006, 11:02:05 AM
Yes, you're right about Marie and the guard too.

Ironically, they've just created more myth now about what happened inside the Ipatiev house.  So much for 'debunking' them.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 11:12:17 AM
That is a great point! Instead of getting rid of myths as is their stated intention, a lot more came in the wake of that book. Sometimes what we try to do, just doesn't match up with what we were intending to do.. but perhaps they were intending to create more myths. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on March 01, 2006, 04:30:00 AM
With that ... wig  :-X :-/ is that not to turn people on or something? I promise to God I'll never mention that again  :-X! I was just curious ...  :-[ :P
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on March 01, 2006, 06:01:54 AM
Lovy, I think the reasons behind the wig have already been made clear.

It was used when for some reason the hair has been lost, just as most wigs for the head are used for this reason.  This usually happens through illness, stress or age.  Though today it is more fashionable to be free of hair in that area, back then I presume it was considered more attractive to have plenty of hair, so if someone did suffer from hair loss, a wig for that area in order to have a normal appearance could be used when being intimate.  

Times change and fashions change.  Today we may view such items as odd and a little bit unsavoury, but I'm sure back then they were not deemed to be.

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lovy on March 01, 2006, 06:47:57 AM
Thanks Rachel!!!  :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grace on March 01, 2006, 06:55:13 AM
Quote
 

Times change and fashions change.  Today we may view such items as odd and a little bit unsavoury, but I'm sure back then they were not deemed to be.

Rachel
xx



Do you think so?  There are not really many other Royals at that time I could think of who would...use them.  ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on March 01, 2006, 07:37:40 AM
Quote

Do you think so?  There are not really many other Royals at that time I could think of who would...use them.  ???


People tend to think of Victorians as complete prudes, and yet they had condoms and 'intimate area' wigs, plus married couples must have had sexual intercourse pretty frequently, seeing as most women knocked out at least 6 kids.  Therefore, I think our stereotypical view of Victorians as these asexual, covering up the piano legs, 'lie back and think of England' types is not really based in actual truth.

We always think of what has past as being 'primitive' and people from the past as being very different from ourselves and having completely different attitudes, but this is simply not true.  Most people today enjoy sex, and most people today use toys and such to enhance their experience.  Why should people 100 years ago have been any different? And why would royalty have a different attitude to sex than anyone else? The only difference is that today we talk about it.  Back then they didn't, so we think that sex was something they never thought about and hated doing, when I'm sure the opposite was true.  Just because they didn't have Cosmopolitan magazine or discuss what went on behind closed doors at afternoon tea, it doesn't mean they didn't enjoy sex.

Even Queen Victoria enjoyed sex, remember!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ChristineM on March 01, 2006, 07:44:52 AM
Much earlier in this thread Bob and Rob requested, because this Forum is used widely in schools for educational purposes, that posters resist discussing this extremely sensitive, personal issue.

Please be kind enough to observe their request.

Thank you.

tsaria
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on March 01, 2006, 08:11:15 AM
I apologise.

I simply wanted to answer Lovy's question, and I was careful to exclude any sensitive wording.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on March 01, 2006, 10:15:58 AM
Yes, the wig is something that we might not have thought they had, but it was. Ironically, indeed, the preference is for more rather than less today. Anyway, it was just something they used in their private life, and there is no reason to be fascinated with these sorts of things more than they warrant. We don't know how many royals used them or not, because there is not that much source material on the subject, so we don't know. And it isn't all that important from a personal standpoint of each royal, although it might be important viewed from a cultural standpoint. In every age, people have enjoyed these sorts of things, but it was not talked about in victorian times. I think in the 16th century, it was rather more frequently discussed.  That doesn't mean that people didn't do things behind closed doors, although in general modern notions of sexuality ( or notions repressed in Victorian times), came to the fore only in the '20s roughly, or during  the World War I era.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Mashka_Angel on March 08, 2006, 01:49:43 AM
I agree with Rachel about her second last post. People, or most people, enjoy sex - and royalty are people, too!! - So why won't they enjoy sex, too? And yes, today people talk about it much more than they did in those days. For the wig (I apologise to FA) I see it was used for people who had no pubic hair - though if you look at "Alexandra, Russia's worst nightmare?" it is said that the wig "is a fairly creative approach to sex." It might also be used to turn people on (lol).
I've also wondered why Nicky and Alix didn't have anymore children. I mean, some royals would have 6 or 7. But can you blame them for not having anymore children (after those contraception items were found in their wardrobe) - I mean, four girls and one hemophiliac son ... they had four daughters so they'd most likely NOT want anymore - And Alexei - he had hemophilia* If another son was born he might have hemophilia. Alexei's illness gave so much stress to Alix that it took a toll on her own health. And it would be so stressful  if another hemophiliac son was born. So, after all I'm not very much surprised that no more children came.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Mashka_Angel on March 10, 2006, 04:23:32 AM
LOL, on the AP it's got N&A's letters to each other. I just laugh when I read Nicky write "Please do not have Mme. Becker when I return home". He always hoped that "Mme. Becker" wasn't going to be with Alix when he returned so he can make love to her. And once Alix wrote "Shall come to you and leave Mme. Becker behind" - so when she visited him at Stavka she was going to make love to him there. What about the kids???!! LOL, never mind. Just felt like saying that.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2006, 08:11:26 AM
Well, there is some truth in the prudishness of the Victorian Era. While certain items did exist, many 'decent' women didn't partake of them. In addition, men often turned to mistresses so as not to subject their wives to their 'lust'. So-called decent women weren't supposed to enjoy the sexual act, though of course, many did have passionate relationships with their spouses. This more reserved attitude towards intercourse was particularly true the higher up the social ladder. It's part of the reason that it was almost expected that an upper class husband would have a mistress. Many high-born women wouldn't have dreamed of using contraceptives, if indeed, they'd ever heard of them. Now many did of course--but it wasn't especially common. Plus there were also religious objections, even among the lower-classes who certainly could've benefited by them even more. In addition, due to the high mortality rate in infancy and childhood, it was imperative for families to have larger numbers of children.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2006, 08:24:24 AM
Quote
If Alexis had been born first and still had hemophilia, they might have gone on to try again just as Ena and Alphonso of Spain did. (I believe that their hemophiliac son was not the first child, but near to the top of the birth order.)

Alix was 32 when Alexis was born.  Maybe that had something to do with it as well.  Having children in one's 20s is much easier and safer than having them in one's 30s and 40s.



Actually, the Prince of the Asturias (the hemophiliac) was the first child (not just son) and it caused the beginning of the increasingly acrimonious relationship between Alfonso & Ena. The 2nd son was born healthy but later developed an illness which rendered him a deaf-mute. The 3rd son was completely healthy (he is the current King's father) while the youngest (and last child) was also a hemophiliac. There were also 2 daughters.

Given the state of the relationship between the 2--at points AXIII could hardly stand to be around Ena--it goes back to the point about the number of children not necessarily reflecting the pleasure of the marital bed. AXIII assuaged his needs elsewhere and,given his antipathy towards Ena, it seems their physical relationship continued only to produce children. Since they only had one healthy son, and the throne would pass to another branch of the family if the male heirs died out, they tried for more children.

If AF's first, or even 2nd or 3rd child, had been Alexei, they might have tried again, much the way they continued to try for a son after the 4 daughters and hope that he would be healthy. AF could look towards her mother who had 2 sons, only one of whom was a hemophiliac. (If Alexei had been born earlier, Irene might've seemed the same way as Henry Jr, the 2nd sufferer wasn't born until 1900.)

Given when Alexei was born--after Irene's 3 sons--she could've been put off by the fear that, having jeopardized her son and the (probably to her) slim chance of having a son, her chances would be further reduced of having a healthy one.


Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tdora on March 13, 2006, 12:55:06 PM
I've been reading this thread with some amusement and much interest.

Thanks GrandDuchessElla, for pointing out the (then)uncertainty of inheritance with haemophilia. Alix would surely have been aware that not all sons inherit the disease. However, to me a major factor would be the strain of secrecy. From as soon as it was realised that Alexei had the disorder, secrecy was absolute, and the maintaining of this was to cause as many repurcussions as the increasingly desparate search of relief and cure. It would have been an overwhelming problem to 'explain' two invalid boys. The risk was just too great - how could they go through such dreadful uncertainty and how could they justify to themselves and each other taking such a gamble with a child's well-being, future, and life?

On the discussions re the 'contraceptives.' I have no romanticised notions to cherish viz. the use of and implications of contraception for N&A. However I am more inclined to believe that these items were planted, as condoms were developed and used primarily for the prevention of the horribly prevalent venereal diseases, especially syphilis. Contraception was almost an incidental benefit. Royalty were not immune from either the transmission of this disease, nor from rumours attached even the most exemplary family man (Vicky's Fritz, for example). The long-standing and widespread rumours about Alix and Rasputin would have provided ammunition  to those who wished to abuse the standing of the Imperial Family even further. The Tsarina was, unfortunately, already a target for and a victim of such sexual slurs.

Finally, I understand the wish to keep postings suitable to be read by schools etc. However this should be balanced with what is of historial interest and relevant to the discussions of personalities and their relationships. In this particulr instance, it is of importance - the fact the the Imperial Family were subject to enormous efforts to slander them as sensationally as possible is a matter of record.

I think there is a cultural difference here: I returned to the UK in 2004 after living in Florida for three years and found there a distinct difference in concepts of sex education juxtaposed with prevailing media images. In a society where teenagers were being taught that abstinence was the only way, then they go home to see Britney, Christina et al...not to mention the flesh on view on the beach! It seemed a curious paradox. Certain references in Shakespeare to m******s and to further sexual acts associated therein (Twelfth Night, Act I, Scene I - Sir Toby's references to a 'housewife') were not only not bowdlerised when I studied it age 15-16 but were explained by the teacher (the deputy principal in fact) to us as archiac language being descriptive of this particular sexual act.

These personal opinions and experiences aside, I don't see why we cannot err on the side of caution certainly in the language we use (and I do tone down my own colourful expressions) - and just be aware of who may be reading. I am nervy about even self-censorship when it comes to content in the historial context but I value this site too much to want to climb on any soapbox against it. A notorious comment made recently about Alexei - an example of the most appalling lack of self-censorship - sadly illustrates that plain common sense is not universal and that this issue continues to exercise us.
I do not wish to stir anything up here but I felt I couldn't post the Shakespeare anecdote (which I felt is relevant) without an explanation of where I'm coming from on the sensitivity of the subject.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on March 14, 2006, 10:56:03 AM
They had many legitimate reasons why they woudn't have wanted to have more children, and it is understandable that they didn't. It is also understandable that they had a passionate relationship, and perhaps used such things as merkins or contraception. It wasn't rare to do these things, but it wasn't discussed that much either. Society in those days didn't discuss things like that in public, or much beyond closed doors either.

But as in every age, there was always some enjoyment of such things. It wasn't as widespread as today, but sometimes today we assume it wasn't there at all, because they never discussed it, which is false. It was done, if not discussed.In this age, both is done. Sometimes we think of ourselves as so modern, and we really aren't. People have always done many of things we do, but it may not have been discussed. Of course it was less wide spread, and passion was never expressed publicly, and rarely in private too, compared with today.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lenna on March 16, 2006, 05:43:05 PM
It's easy to believe that N+A didn't want anymore children (LOL, all the reasons I can think of have already been pointed out). So it's not a very much shock that all those 'contraception items' were found. They were very intimate in their letters (e.g. "Please do not have Mme. Becker when I return home" or "Shall come to you and leave Mme. Becker behind") and enjoyed an intimate sex life together.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on March 17, 2006, 10:37:45 AM
Yes, there were many practical reasons why five children were enough for them. And like any married couple so passionatly in love, I am sure they had a healthy private life, as it were. And any contraception? That's to be expected. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sissi on June 14, 2006, 03:42:24 PM
I think she is pregnan in this picture:

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/alixpregnant.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Justine on June 14, 2006, 03:55:28 PM
I love this picture and I hope someone hae a bigger and in better quality version :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on June 21, 2006, 11:41:46 AM
It's hard to tell, I have never see this photo. If so, she would be most likely pregnant with Olga, as it is a fairly early photo.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Lisa on July 10, 2006, 04:02:23 AM
Quote
I think she is pregnan in this picture:

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/alixpregnant.jpg)
Dear Sisi,
This picture was taken in UK in 1894, just after her fiançailles. Some others of the same sitting: (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9561/42bp2.th.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42bp2.jpg)  (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4222/01a9jk.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01a9jk.jpg)  (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7857/69ul1.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69ul1.jpg)  
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Justine on July 10, 2006, 06:56:26 AM
Thank you Lisa :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 07, 2006, 05:28:23 AM


(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7792/pregnant0qv.jpg)

Simply stunning!! Thank you for posting it, she sure was beautiful!!!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sissi on August 07, 2006, 08:56:53 AM
Quote
I think she is pregnan in this picture:

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/alixpregnant.jpg)
Dear Sisi,
This picture was taken in UK in 1894, just after her fiançailles. Some others of the same sitting: (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9561/42bp2.th.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42bp2.jpg)  (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4222/01a9jk.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01a9jk.jpg)  (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7857/69ul1.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69ul1.jpg)  


Dear Lisa!!! Thank you!!! they are indeed from the same setting!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on August 28, 2006, 12:48:51 PM
Thanks for saying when these photos were taken. If it was 1894, then that's too early for Olga yet, so these can't be said to be pregnancy photos.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on October 15, 2006, 01:21:40 PM
I have always wondered whatever made Alexandra decide not to bear more babies after Alexei. I understand that Alexei's illness might have placed lots of stress on her, and it might lead her to this decision not to have more children in fear that more sons might suffer the same illness. However, Alexandra's mother had one son who did not have hemophilia, and her sister Irene, while having two hemophilic sons, also had another son who fortunately didn't suffer from hemohilia, so it did not quite explain that theory. The Empress was thirty-two years old at the time of the birth of her last child, and I believe she's still young to bear more children. Marie Feodorovna was thirty-five when she had Olga. Does anyone know exactly why Alexandra didn't have more children? Is she barren after Alexei's birth?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 15, 2006, 01:27:00 PM
Hello Elizaveta,

At the top of page 4 their is a thread "Why didn't Alix have more children" which might give you some information.

I think Alix found child bearing very tough going which is possibily why she stopped having children after finally giving birth to the much wanted heir.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on October 15, 2006, 06:04:27 PM
At the top of page 4 their is a thread "Why didn't Alix have more children" which might give you some information.
Here's a direct link:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1256.0.html (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1256.0.html)
 :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on October 15, 2006, 06:26:34 PM
Oh okay! Thanks, guys  :D
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on October 16, 2006, 08:27:00 AM
Yes, this is an interesting topic that we almost debated to death last winter, but if someone has anything more to say, I am sure it could revive itself. I think we had much interesting discussion on that thread. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on October 16, 2006, 12:36:06 PM
Yes, this is an interesting topic that we almost debated to death last winter, but if someone has anything more to say, I am sure it could revive itself. I think we had much interesting discussion on that thread. ;)
In that case, would you PLEASE post any further comment on the old thread I provided the link to?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Peaceful Revolution on December 09, 2006, 02:19:45 PM
An interesting thought I had: if Alexei had been the firstborn of Nicholas and Alexandra, does it seem they would have decided to have more children? I'm tempted to to say they would, seeing as how families in the nobility seemed to RARELY have only a single child, unless there was some disorder or such. (But, of course, you have Alexei's disease, and the risk of bestowing it on another son.) And, of course, there was always the possibility that OTMA were carriers of the gene.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on December 11, 2006, 12:42:00 PM
More than likely ( in fact, certainly), one or more of otma did carry this gene. This would have had repercussions when they married, and who they married. But, even if Alexei had been her first born, and had had hemophilia, this would not have stopped her from having more children. To me, it might have encouraged her, so that she could have a son who didn't have the disease. But, this son still would not have been the heir, so it might have been pointless to try to have another son, although I don't think she thought of it that way. But, it is good that Alexei was not her first born as it would have made her more stressed even earlier.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on December 11, 2006, 02:13:22 PM
More than likely ( in fact, certainly), one or more of otma did carry this gene. This would have had repercussions when they married, and who they married. But, even if Alexei had been her first born, and had had hemophilia, this would not have stopped her from having more children. To me, it might have encouraged her, so that she could have a son who didn't have the disease. But, this son still would not have been the heir, so it might have been pointless to try to have another son, although I don't think she thought of it that way. But, it is good that Alexei was not her first born as it would have made her more stressed even earlier.

I agree that if Alexei had been Alexandra's first born, there would have been earlier stress for her but I also feel that she was a decade younger which may have made a lot of difference.  It could also explain why there were no other children after his birth. This may have been something mother nature played a part in.  Maybe she began to change life early due to the stressful circumstances surrounding poor Alexei, or because the situation prematurely aged her emotionally and certainly in her looks and demeanor, it also could have been internal. 

But as was pointed out before,  because of high infant mortality, N & A were not discouraged from having a large family nor do I think that Alexei being born first would have been a deterrent to the Imperial Couple from having more children.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Georgiy on December 26, 2006, 06:20:16 PM
She didn't begin to change life early, as there are plenty  of references to "Mme Becker" right to the end.

If Alexei had been the first-born, even with haemophilia, why wouldn't they have had other children?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RealAnastasia on December 26, 2006, 10:02:17 PM
She didn't begin to change life early, as there are plenty  of references to "Mme Becker" right to the end.

If Alexei had been the first-born, even with haemophilia, why wouldn't they have had other children?

Maybe for the fear of give birth to another boy with hemophilia...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on December 27, 2006, 10:50:50 AM
Perhaps. It might have discouraged her, but knowing Alexandra's personality, and that she was a bit stubborn, that might have encouraged her to try again. On another note, other royal ladies who carried this continued to have children even after they knew that they were hemophilia carriers. Ena had many sons with the disease, and although I am a bit hazy on Irene, I think this was the case for her as well. Queen Victoria certainly had more children after Prince Leopold. But, at that point no one understood enough to tell her she might have more sons with the disease, which didn't happen. By Alexandra's time, things were more well known. Still, in light of other royal women's example, I don't think this would have prevented her from having further kids.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on December 27, 2006, 09:17:57 PM
Maybe it wasn't Alexandra who decided to stop giving birth to more children. Maybe it was Nicholas. Oh, dear, we seemed to have forgotten his input in Alexandra's decision!  :o ::) Maybe Alexandra was going to have more children, but Nicholas felt he can't handle another haeomophilic son. If it was not Alexandra or Nicholas, perhaps Maria Feodorovna played a role in Alexandra's childbearing. Does anyone know for certain if Maria Feodorovna was let in to the family's ultimate secret?  ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on December 28, 2006, 11:49:10 AM
She was a pretty bad mother in law, rather interfering, and her and Alexandra got along not very well. I don't think she had any input on how many children they had, or if they had another child after Alexei. Nicholas was more influenced by Alexandra than his mother by that time. As for Alexandra, she was never influenced by M.F. I agree that Nicholas no doubt had some input, and that they both agreed that one son and four daughters was enough in the circumstances. It certainly seems to have been a mutual choice, whether the threat of hemophilia influenced it or not.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on December 28, 2006, 03:26:31 PM
Yes...maybe Nicholas was more concerned about Alexandra's health after childbirth than the security of his family's throne. Alexandra had difficulties giving birth to her children, and Nicholas might encourage her to stop having more children for the family's sake. I agree it's a mutual decision, but I'm really curious about what led them to agree on that.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on December 28, 2006, 03:49:57 PM
Though Alexandra was still relatively young, she had prematurely aged due to the stress from Alexei's illness. It may have not been a conscious decision at all, but simply nature taking it's course on a body overtaxed and under extreme circumstances.  Nature giving the empress a chance to "recover" if you will from the enormous burdens she had to shoulder.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on February 24, 2007, 01:39:28 PM
Recently, it just occurred to me that since both Empress Alexandra and her older sister Princess Irene had hemophilic sons, they must have exchanged some medical information on their sons' illness on letters or/and in conversations. Here are some questions that popped into my mind and hopefully some of you guys can answer some of those questions!

- Did Alexandra and Irene suggest some ways to lessen the pain of their sons' illnesses on their letters to each other?
- How did Irene react (if she's been let in to the family's huge secret--though I assume she was) to the news of Alexandra's son being hemophilic?
- I am not quite sure how often Tsarevich Alexei saw his hemophilic cousin Prince Heinrich, but does anybody know whether the boys felt close to each other because of their common disease?
- Were there any choice of the kind of treatment or method that Alexandra disagree/agree with her sister?

I'll GREATLY appreciate it if any of you guys are able to answer my questions and more!  :)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Helen on February 24, 2007, 03:22:02 PM
The larger part of their correspondence has been lost. Irene destroyed all correspondence that she had received from Alix but a few telegrams and postcards. And Alix seems to have burnt Irene's letters: GARF, the State Archive at Moscow, only has some postcards from Irene, which make no mention of illnesses of their children.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on February 24, 2007, 07:12:34 PM
The larger part of their correspondence has been lost. Irene destroyed all correspondence that she had received from Alix but a few telegrams and postcards. And Alix seems to have burnt Irene's letters: GARF, the State Archive at Moscow, only has some postcards from Irene, which make no mention of illnesses of their children.

Too bad! Those were some interesting questions Elizaveta asked. Are there any other records of Alix & Irene's correspondence?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on February 24, 2007, 07:50:32 PM
Aww!

Perhaps there were other members in Alexandra's family who would know whether the subject of hemophila was brought up in conversations between Alexandra and Irene?? What about Alexandra's journals? Some of her journals survived the revolution, so she might mention about hemophila and Irene's comments on that disease...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: grandduchessella on February 24, 2007, 09:08:55 PM
[q]- I am not quite sure how often Tsarevich Alexei saw his hemophilic cousin Prince Heinrich, but does anybody know whether the boys felt close to each other because of their common disease?[/q]

Henry Jr died in February 1904, Alexei was born that August. His other cousin, Waldemar, was already a teenager (he was born 1889) when Alexei was born and I don't think he saw him a large number of times.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Elizaveta on February 25, 2007, 03:52:36 PM
Oh, yes, I've forgotten Prince Heinrich died young. Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't he dying because of an accident related to hemophilia?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on February 26, 2007, 10:36:00 AM
In Charlotte's Zeepvat's Queen Victoria's Family there is a small bit of info on Irene.  She does mentiong that Ernst Ludwig wrote about her son's battle w/hemophilia and it's affect on her life.  She also wrote that Heinrich wasn't exactly supportive, to the point of abuse. 

IMO it is highly likely the sisters kept very private lives,much as Ella did in regards to their homelife.  But it DOES stand to reason that you would want to talk to someone as close as a sister about the agony of having hemophiliac children.  It should be remembered though that German-Russian relations were coming to a head and perhaps the correspondence between sisters would have been viewed as treason. ??? ???
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Helen on February 27, 2007, 02:43:18 AM
I think it's safe to assume that Irene and Alix did discuss details of their sons' health. Wasn't Irene at Spala at the time of Alexei's illness in 1912? Alix certainly kept Irene informed of the details of Alexei's condition on an almost daily basis in November 1912.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on February 27, 2007, 07:48:47 AM
Wasn't Irene at Spala at the time of Alexei's illness in 1912?
Yes, she was. There are photos of Irene with OTMA on the tennis courts, and of Irene and Alix during that time.

Was Irene already in Spala when Aleksei was ill, or did she come when his condition worsened?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on February 27, 2007, 08:19:24 AM
Spala, 1912:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Alexandra/th_00214016irene.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Alexandra/00214016irene.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Big%20Pair/th_otirene.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Big%20Pair/otirene.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Helen on February 27, 2007, 09:21:40 AM
Thank you for posting these pictures, Sarushka. So Irene was there at the time. :) She must have been a great support to Alix.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on July 04, 2007, 12:44:22 PM
I thnk the reason was the fear over another Alexis. The disease being revealed only with his birth.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on July 11, 2007, 02:08:58 PM
Well, the couple was very passionate and shared an intimate loving relationship all their lives.  There were mentions of "French Letters" a Victorian way of saying condoms found in the Ipatiev House in the FOTR.  Supposedly coming from the inventory taken from the house by the White investigators.

So perhaps they DID take precautions, not wanting a repeat hemophiliac.  As far as Nicholas fearing for Alexandra's health regarding childbirth, I do believe this was so.  But we can only speculate how far their passionate love affair played itself out after Alexei's birth.

I like to believe they were intimate in the truest sense of the word and the fact that Alexandra did not become pregnant after Alexei was simply nature taking it's course. Alix had very real physical ailments, not only those chalked up to hyperchondria.  She injured her legs as a child and had to have many "treatments" at Spas to recuperate, which she never fully did.  She also had rheumatism and sciatica which was inherited and could also have been a result of so many pregnacies so close together.  It would be no surprise that if she WOULD have gotten pregnant, it would have been the most difficult after all she'd been through.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on July 12, 2007, 07:19:21 AM
I'm glad Alexandra Feodorovna and Nicholas II had no more children as no others deserved to end up dead on the cellar floor of the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg. Think about it from that point of view and you too will be glad there were no more children.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on July 12, 2007, 01:20:12 PM
Yes. Truer words could never be spoken. :'(
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: charley on August 08, 2007, 03:42:03 PM
Does anyone have details about Alexandra's pregnancies? Especially when she is in her last trimester. Do photos of her pregnant exist and why is there such a little amount of talk about her in her very large pregnancy state?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: koloagirl on August 08, 2007, 04:08:54 PM
 :D

Aloha all!

I believe there was a thread some time ago on pictures of Alix during her pregnancies -- but here is a picture that has always been one of my favorites -- I believe it is showing Alix during her pregnancy with Olga.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/oaf7740pc.jpg)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Stasie on August 08, 2007, 04:32:30 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/otmaa/Alix%20and%20Nicky/1899.jpg)
I have this one. It was labeled 1899 (in my photobucket account), but for some reason I think she was pregnant with Olga in this one  ??? Help anyone?  :D
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on August 08, 2007, 09:55:32 PM
Do photos of her pregnant exist and why is there such a little amount of talk about her in her very large pregnancy state?

Pregnant women simply didn't go out much at all at that time, particularly during their last trimester. Pregnancy was something of a taboo subject in public. It'd be sort of like grocery shopping in a bikini nowadays. ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: ImperialHighness on August 09, 2007, 10:43:10 AM
The photo by Stasie shows Alix in 1899 during her pregancy with Marie for I have three other photos which had been taken on the same day in various positions and with Alix and other people, friends and servants.
Remember that Alix was not very well during her pregnancies when she got older. After she had been two months pregnant with Marie she had to lay in bed most of the time and she could only move in a wheel chair.
And as it was said before, the Empress would not show up pregnant in public. My Great-Grandma who was working for the House of Hanover said that even in the 1920s it was not allowed for a Princess to go out pregnant or show it on photos for the public. It s the same like with bathing suits and trousers for women- it was Marlene Dietrich to make that popular, right? ;) But I think that came up in the 1930s.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: koloagirl on August 09, 2007, 03:28:18 PM
 :D

Aloha all!

Sarushka -- I couldn't help but laugh when I read your posting about how going out during pregnancy would be like someone going grocery shopping in a bikini!   :D ;D

Believe it or not -- yesterday when I was shopping -- I saw just that!   :o :o

I'm always amazed by what some visitors wear here -- I can't imagine that this same lady would wear a bikini at home to her local grocery store!   But folks do strange things when they are on vacation!   ;D :-X
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on August 13, 2007, 06:41:41 AM
I believe that if Alexei had been the first born, they would not have stopped having children.

Couples in the 19th century only knew that a family was important and that an imperial family was very important. 

And who is to say that if Alexei had been born first that he would have had hemophilia?  Just imagine that scenario.  ;)

A healthy first born son who would have been nearly 21 when Nicholas abdicated. Someone he could have truly turned the throne over to without reservations.

Ah, the possibilities!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on August 13, 2007, 08:37:23 AM
I'm glad Alexandra Feodorovna and Nicholas II had no more children as no others deserved to end up dead on the cellar floor of the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg. Think about it from that point of view and you too will be glad there were no more children.

So you'd rather have no life at all than a short one?  :-\
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on August 13, 2007, 09:58:02 AM
I believe that if Alexei had been the first born, they would not have stopped having children.

 And who is to say that if Alexei had been born first that he would have had hemophilia?  Just imagine that scenario.  ;)

A letter from Alexandra to her sister Victoria Milford-Haven was found years later where she told of having been pregnant the night of the coronation miscarrying due to the stress of the controversy over the stampede at the field. What if that child had lived and had been a healthy boy?

Quote
A healthy first born son who would have been nearly 21 when Nicholas abdicated. Someone he could have truly turned the throne over to without reservations.

Ah, the possibilities!

But if he had this older healthy son, it's very likely he wouldn't have had to have abdicated at all. What's that someone said, without Rasputin there would have been no revolution? If they didn't need Rasputin, then it's very likely things would not have deteroriated the way they did, and the dynasty may not even have fallen!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on August 13, 2007, 12:38:30 PM
But if he had this older healthy son, it's very likely he wouldn't have had to have abdicated at all. What's that someone said, without Rasputin there would have been no revolution? If they didn't need Rasputin, then it's very likely things would not have deteroriated the way they did, and the dynasty may not even have fallen!

I don't know about that. In reading Dominic Lieven's Nicholas II, it's pretty evident that regardless of who was on the throne, the Russian autocratic system was becoming a less and less feasible means of governing a modern country. Even if Rasputin had not entered the equation, Nicholas was not the most adept ruler and he was also not a man keen for reform. Rasputin had nothing to do with Bloody Sunday, the Russo-Japanese war, or WWI -- all of which contributed to the downfall of the Russian monarchy. Perhaps the dynasty might have retained some of its prestige and respect for a while longer without Rasputin, but I'm reluctant to believe that removing Rasputin alone from the whole scenario would have been enough to avoid the revolution.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on August 13, 2007, 01:17:33 PM
Sarushka,

I agree with you.  Rasputin was but a small cog in a very old and creaky machine.  He seems a large cog now that we look back, but the way that Russia was ruled by the Romanovs is what contributed to the downfall of the dynasty much more that the defective chromosome of one little boy.

And I think it began to go wrong with the murder of Paul I.

Annie,

I thought that the story of her pregnancy at the time of the coronation was proved to be in error.  Alexandra "thought" she was pregnant, but the doctors said she wasn't, that it was just stress.

In The Last Empress Greg King uses Mouchanow for his source on this pregnancy and that source has not been proven to be reliable.  Do you have another source for this pregnancy?  The only reason I ask, is because in a letter to her sister, Alexandra would have written that she was pregnant for a fact even if she just thought she was.

Then she had an "hysterical" pregnancy in 1902 under the influence of Phillipe Nazier-Vachot.

Poor Alix, what an enormous amount of stress she suffered in not having produced an heir and then again after having finally produced one.

She only 33 when Alexis was born and certainly should have been able to have more children, but perhaps those "French Letters" were employed and perhaps like some mothers who have children with a health defect, perhaps Alix just couldn't bear going through all of the pain over again.  (I am not usually this nice to her  ???  )

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on August 13, 2007, 02:15:50 PM
Even if the system and the dynasty was doomed to fail eventually I still think it would have turned out differently if Rasputin had not been there.  It was their desperation over Alexei that led her to turn to him, if they'd had a healthy son this would not have happened. After all it was his influence on Alix while Nicky was gone and the bad gov't appointments by Alix at his  discretion that led to the last straw that brought on the revolution when it did. The dynasty may still have fallen, most did after WWI, but it wouldn't likely have been at the same time and under the same circumstances and they probably wouldn't have died the way they did- and we wouldn't be here talking about them.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: charley on August 13, 2007, 07:07:41 PM
Remember that Alix was not very well during her pregnancies when she got older. And as it was said before, the Empress would not show up pregnant in public.

She was only 32 when she had Alexei.  As far as her being seen in public pregnant, I have a French newspaper that has her nursing one of her babies on the front cover. It is a type of colored print. They sent an artist to make the print.
It just seems with Alix being different from most royals, that she would have more pictures of herself. Especially when they all had cameras at the turn of the century. She really reminds me of Princess Diana, in that she was going to raise her own children. Even though Alix's kids had nanny's, nurses, governesses, etc., she was definitely a "hands on mom". If there are not if any records of her pregnancies, she could have had miscarriages then. 
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on August 14, 2007, 09:26:30 AM
The photo by Stasie shows Alix in 1899 during her pregancy with Marie for I have three other photos which had been taken on the same day in various positions and with Alix and other people, friends and servants.
Remember that Alix was not very well during her pregnancies when she got older. After she had been two months pregnant with Marie she had to lay in bed most of the time and she could only move in a wheel chair.
And as it was said before, the Empress would not show up pregnant in public. My Great-Grandma who was working for the House of Hanover said that even in the 1920s it was not allowed for a Princess to go out pregnant or show it on photos for the public. It s the same like with bathing suits and trousers for women- it was Marlene Dietrich to make that popular, right? ;) But I think that came up in the 1930s.

This is very true, my Grandma who was the same age of Anastasia said the same thing. You just didn't go out in public or let yourself be seen any more than you had to once you were showing. (I guess the reason being people would know for sure what you'd been up to and there was something 'bad' about that?? ???) People were funny about that stuff in those days. My Grandma also said that even mentioning the bathroom (slopjar, outhouse, etc.) in front of a boy when you were dating was considered very bad for the girl's rep! :o

Late pregnancy was sometimes called 'confinement' in the older times because the obviously pregnant woman, especially rich ones, were most often kept out of sight. This is why it's so laughable to see Miss Beadle or even Laura on "Little House" ready to burst teaching a class of little kids saying "I'd like to work up until the last minute" ::) they're doing that to be socially correct for the newer times, but back then it just plain didn't happen! No way would a pregnant woman be teaching kids, and until sometime after the turn of the 20th century, a teacher couldn't even be married! This is why schoolteachers in the old west were either teenagers(you could get a teaching certificate at 16, all you had to do was pass an exam, no college needed) or 'spinster' schoolmarms. (at least in rural US) Once you got married, you had to give it up. Their philosophy was that if a teacher had her own husband and children she wouldn't give the needed attention to her students. And even as late as the 1960's it was expected that a woman give up her job or take long pregnancy leave once she could no longer conceal her belly and was obviously pregnant.

So because pregnancy was something to hide in those days, there aren't going to be many if any posed photos of pregnant ladies.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: charley on August 14, 2007, 04:18:00 PM
Well there is a picture of Alix sitting on Nicky's lap and they are kissing. I guess my point is that I would think that in private, they would have taken pictures of her or even record it in her diary, which was not public at the time. I can understand not having a posed formal picture taken or even being seen in public, but privately, they seemed pretty "laid back" (i.e. the picture I described).
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 24, 2007, 02:51:10 AM
Quote
Well there is a picture of Alix sitting on Nicky's lap and they are kissing. I guess my point is that I would think that in private, they would have taken pictures of her or even record it in her diary, which was not public at the time. I can understand not having a posed formal picture taken or even being seen in public, but privately, they seemed pretty "laid back" (i.e. the picture I described).

Remember, there are still many unpublished photos, there could be quite a few of her pregnant.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on August 24, 2007, 08:23:42 AM
Quote
Well there is a picture of Alix sitting on Nicky's lap and they are kissing. I guess my point is that I would think that in private, they would have taken pictures of her or even record it in her diary, which was not public at the time. I can understand not having a posed formal picture taken or even being seen in public, but privately, they seemed pretty "laid back" (i.e. the picture I described).

Remember, there are still many unpublished photos, there could be quite a few of her pregnant.

Entirely possible. A sense of propriety might keep any such photos (if they exist) from being published today. As much as we'd like to know EVERYTHING about them, even the dead deserve some privacy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: rosieposie on August 25, 2007, 01:12:09 AM
Who was it that had thought that babies were born with clothes on?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 25, 2007, 04:10:06 AM
I don't think that Alix being pregnant in a photograph will keep it from being published forever. There's the one of her showing her feet, which wasn't something women did back in those days, and talk about invasion of privacy, there's the ones of Aleksey naked and Nicholas's rear end showing.  :-X
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: charley on August 25, 2007, 05:32:15 PM
That is a real good point Clockwork. I had forgotten about those photographs.  Now I really wonder why we have not seen more photo's and discussions about her pregnancies.
I had an interesting thought.  The Imperial Family knew from various sources that they were not completely safe and that something bad was supposed to happen in their future. Do you think it is concievable that knowing this information after Alexei's birth, that any further children or even pregnancies would be kept secretive. The world knew about all five children, so they would be in danger, but if there was another child after Alexeii, and no one knew about it, it would not be in danger. Just a thought, but if I was in that situation, I would consider that idea.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 30, 2007, 09:34:30 PM
I just wanted to say something about Alexandra writing to Nicholas about not sleeping together and Nicholas wishing Alix wouldn't be on her [eriod when he got home...

maybe she meant they hadn't sleep together as in being together to sleep in the same bed? She may not have meant sex at all. And maybe Alexandra got a little testy around her time, and Nicholas didn't want her to be in that mood when he arrived.  ;)

Quote
Even if the system and the dynasty was doomed to fail eventually I still think it would have turned out differently if Rasputin had not been there.  It was their desperation over Alexei that led her to turn to him, if they'd had a healthy son this would not have happened. After all it was his influence on Alix while Nicky was gone and the bad gov't appointments by Alix at his  discretion that led to the last straw that brought on the revolution when it did. The dynasty may still have fallen, most did after WWI, but it wouldn't likely have been at the same time and under the same circumstances and they probably wouldn't have died the way they did- and we wouldn't be here talking about them.

Yeah.  :-\ Nicholas and Alexandra just had one bad thing happen after another.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pandora on September 03, 2007, 02:38:52 PM
Being a "newbie" to this forum, so many of the topics are very interesting to me but I'm sure to many of the long-time members the discussions may feel continually "rehashed"..with that said, I'd like to add that I've always thought Alexei's illness played a huge factor in the number of children A & N had and just from a personal angle, after I had my first daughter, I bounced back so much quicker than I did four years later with my second daughter - and their births occurred, obviously, in our current era of modern medicine. Having five children, two or three years apart during Alexandra's era had to be extremely taxing for women - mentally & physically.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pandora on September 03, 2007, 02:58:56 PM
The photos diplayed here of Alexandra while pregnant have to be very rare. My great-grandmothers were of the same generation as the Empress and in all of the family photos I have, not one shows either woman pregnant...and this is astonishing to me since my paternal great-grandmother had 13 children within a space of 25 years...one would think that at least one photo would exist of her in that condition.  I do have one photo of my maternal grandmother pregnant with my aunt in 1934 but it's taken at angle so without my mother's explanation of the photo, I wouldn't have known that Grandma was in "that condition" !
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Sarushka on September 04, 2007, 09:01:37 AM
I don't think that Alix being pregnant in a photograph will keep it from being published forever. There's the one of her showing her feet, which wasn't something women did back in those days, and talk about invasion of privacy, there's the ones of Aleksey naked and Nicholas's rear end showing.  :-X

That's entirely possible, but I do think there comes a point when people -- even dead famous ones -- are entitled to a little privacy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on September 06, 2007, 08:32:33 AM
I agree. Especially since she wasn't mentally or physically in balance before the births of her children. IMO her previous state coupled with post-partum as well as the hemophilia of Alexei probably ended her child bearing days.  Whether by choice or by nature.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 08:59:29 AM
well remember Queen Victoria, her grandmother, had 9 children and one of them was like Alexis ... a different person in how she reacted though compared to her granddaughter
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 02:16:41 PM
well remember Queen Victoria, her grandmother, had 9 children and one of them was like Alexis ... a different person in how she reacted though compared to her granddaughter

Her 'heir' Edward was healthy though, I wonder how she'd have felt if she had only one son and he had it? But then of course in England a woman can rule, so there's no need to fear having only daughters.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: lori_c on September 06, 2007, 04:14:19 PM
QV was definitely different then her high-strung granddaughter in regards to this, i believe.  But in her child bearing years, QV wasn't as "hands-on" with her children.  PA did this.   She didn't particularly like to be around children then.  I think when her grandchildren came it was different. 

Also, Alix and QV certainly were different in their personalities and physical/mental conditions before, during and after their child bearing years.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 05:00:51 PM
Yes Queen Victoria was more intelligent and a better judge of character. The only impediment for a woman succeeding in Russia was Nicholas II's weakness. He could have changed the Pauline law at any time.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pandora on September 06, 2007, 08:07:44 PM
dmitri, annie & lori c...all valid points to this topic, in my opinion...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on September 08, 2007, 12:55:07 AM
What's interesting is that Queen Victoria had nine kids, but complained about it all the way, and said she didn't like young kids. Alexandra, on the other hand, never did so, she is not on the record saying she disliked pregnancy or small children, yet she had only five kids.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 08, 2007, 02:42:31 AM
Alexandra was far more hysterical than her grandmother, Queen Victoria. Remember also there was no pain relief during childbirth for most of the time Queen Victoria was having children. It was only in her last couple of pregnancies that chloroform became available.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pandora on September 08, 2007, 07:43:22 AM
IMO, it's evident from many of our posts that a person's mental state contributes immensely to their physical well-being. I'm thinking Alexandra's high-strung personality combined with numerous births in a short period of time; the added stress of producing an heir then the realization that Alexei was seriously ill totally pushed her over the edge, per se. In using the phrase, "over the edge" I certainly do not mean she was mentally ill and am not intending to appear disrespectful but in our modern era, instances such as Alexandra's often prompt doctors to prescribe anti-depressants and/or anti-anxiety drugs...but I'm digressing here...my point is, Alexandra's mental well-being played an important role in the possibility future children.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 08, 2007, 07:46:40 AM
Well I for one am glad Nicholas and Alexandra did not have any more children as they would have inevitably been slaughtered in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg no matter what their ages.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna11 on September 08, 2007, 08:32:41 PM
Sorry if this question sounds perverted or whatever, but how did they not have any more children? Did they use some kind of birth control, or did the abstinent? (Is that the right word? My spelling and grammar is awful)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 12:35:10 AM
I guess most people's photos end up in oblivion sooner or later. There are so many photos of victims of the holocaust that nobody knows the names of. Their faces though still live and haunt others about their hopes and dreams and final fates.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna11 on September 09, 2007, 01:19:51 AM
Quote
There's the one of her showing her feet, which wasn't something women did back in those days, and talk about invasion of privacy, there's the ones of Aleksey naked and Nicholas's rear end showing. 

Care to share? lol i've never seen any of those photos.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 11:16:58 AM
Birth control was possible.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pandora on September 09, 2007, 02:57:49 PM
Well I for one am glad Nicholas and Alexandra did not have any more children as they would have inevitably been slaughtered in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg no matter what their ages.

Oh, most definitely, dmitri. Such a tragic situation from every angle.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on September 09, 2007, 03:02:20 PM
It's hard to decide if you personally wish N&A had had more children. Can we say we wish OTMAA had never been born?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: charley on September 14, 2007, 08:29:30 PM
I find it hard to believe that they deliberately tried NOT to have any more children. Was the throne so unimportant to Nicholas that he, knowing Alexei could die any time, would just let it go? As for her pregnancies being very difficult, women have had extremely rough pregnancies forever and continued to have more children. The idea that because Alexei had hemophilia, they would not try to have more children does not match up to the rest of Alix's family. Look at all the children and grandchildren, etc., that Queen Victoria had full well knowing about hemophilia in the family. The idea of birth control seems very unlikely to me. First of all, they were very devout, secondly, there is no record, that I am aware of, of birth control being used in a monarchy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 08:39:04 PM
Actually there is information on contraception.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: anna11 on September 14, 2007, 09:08:17 PM
....and what is it?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 10:49:39 PM
sheaths .. they've been around for a very long time indeed
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: pandora on September 15, 2007, 08:05:28 PM
I find it hard to believe that they deliberately tried NOT to have any more children. Was the throne so unimportant to Nicholas that he, knowing Alexei could die any time, would just let it go? As for her pregnancies being very difficult, women have had extremely rough pregnancies forever and continued to have more children. The idea that because Alexei had hemophilia, they would not try to have more children does not match up to the rest of Alix's family. Look at all the children and grandchildren, etc., that Queen Victoria had full well knowing about hemophilia in the family. The idea of birth control seems very unlikely to me. First of all, they were very devout, secondly, there is no record, that I am aware of, of birth control being used in a monarchy.

The situation may not have been "deliberate" at all. After five pregnancies so close together, Alexis' hemophilla, the mental and physical stress of the entire situation plus a woman's normal physiological timeclock, getting pregnant may not have been as easy for Alexandra.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: dmitri on September 15, 2007, 10:38:24 PM
Yes that could have also been quite correct.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 16, 2009, 03:04:30 PM
Sorry if my question might be not proper...
But I would like to know, why Alix and Nicky didn't try to get another - maybe healthy - son? Was there any physical problem or was Alix to weak to bear the disappointment of another daughter/haemophiliac son? Do you know why?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on April 16, 2009, 03:44:24 PM
Have you read Helen Rappaport's new book The Last Days of the Romanovs? In there on p.89 it says basically that Alexandra was worn out from so many preganancies in quick sucession (1895, 1897, 1899, 1901, 1904, and possibly a miscarriage in 1903 too), that given how bad her health was, it might endanger her health further to become pregnant again. Doubtless too, it might have been another daughter, who would not be an heir or a son with hemophilia. It just didn't seem worth the risk.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 16, 2009, 03:49:47 PM
I think so too. I heard of another miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana (about 1896) because of the stress of the coronation. Is this right?
I heard that the miscarriage in 1903 could also be an appearance of pregnancy. They are not sure about it.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ally Kumari on April 16, 2009, 03:57:41 PM
I read about that in Caroly Erikson´s  "Alexandra", but I´m rather doubtful....
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 16, 2009, 04:03:08 PM
Could be...I mean, she was under so much pressure to become an heir, she had so much holy people around her, who suddenly told her, that she is pregnant (like a man called Nazier-Vachot)...I would not wonder if this is true
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ally Kumari on April 16, 2009, 04:04:37 PM
In 1896 there were no mystics around her yet. The reason why I doubt is that I´ve never seen it anywhere else, and Erikson is not really an expert.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 16, 2009, 04:08:38 PM
Ok, but I read it in Greg Kings "The Last Empress" too, that she had a miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana. About 1903 he was not sure if she had a miscarriage or a appearance of pregnancy. Don't know what is true... :-\
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Ally Kumari on April 16, 2009, 04:21:08 PM
I have not read Greg King´s book. I wanted to borrow it from the city library, as it´s not possible to buy it in shop around here, but somebody had stolen it! Still - are there any particular sources where Mr. King found it?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Tina Laroche on April 16, 2009, 04:31:59 PM
Could be...I mean, she was under so much pressure to become an heir, she had so much holy people around her, who suddenly told her, that she is pregnant (like a man called Nazier-Vachot)...I would not wonder if this is true

Well, Alix wasn't under that much pressure to produce a mail heir in 1896. She only had one daughter then - Olga. And, obviously, after Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia's births, the pressure grew...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 16, 2009, 04:36:33 PM
The miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana is a source of Mouchanov (do you know, who it is?). Before this, Queen Victoria wrote to Alix' sister Victoria if it is true that Alix is pregnant again (source: Victoria: advice) - newspaper wrote about it. After this, the miscarriage did happened. That's what Greg King wrote. The French Ambassador Paleologue wrote about a miscarriage in 1902. But this is not proved.
Hope you find the book soon. Its really worth reading it.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 16, 2009, 04:37:49 PM
at Tina: I meant in 1903, because just in this year were rumors about an appearance of pregnancy  ;)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on April 16, 2009, 05:37:42 PM
The miscarriage between Olga and Tatiana is a source of Mouchanov (do you know, who it is?). Before this, Queen Victoria wrote to Alix' sister Victoria if it is true that Alix is pregnant again (source: Victoria: advice) - newspaper wrote about it. After this, the miscarriage did happened. Thats what Greg King wrote. The french embassador Paleologue wrote about a miscarriage in 1902. But this is not proved.
Hope you find the book soon. Its really worth reading it.

Mouchanow is a book that was written about Alexandra by an anonymous author in I think the '20s or so. The book was gossip and fiction, and totally unreliable. Erickson used Mouchanow as a source even though she knew it was fiction. I'm not sure why. So the 1896 miscarriage likely never happened. There's a thread on here not posted to since 2005 called '' My Empress by Martha Mouchanow'' which discusses the book- try search to find the thread.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: nena on April 16, 2009, 06:21:47 PM
I read it was 1902, that rumors Alexandra had miscarriage.  :-[
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Ferah on April 16, 2009, 07:29:16 PM
So was the empress ever pregnant in 1896  (between Olga and Tatiana) and again in 1902 ?
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on April 17, 2009, 01:37:04 AM
Nobody knows for sure. In 1896, likely not, the source for that is Mouchanow who was writing gossip and fiction. In 1902-3, it could have been a false pregnancy. The sources we have indicate she believed herself to be pregnant but likely fasely, so desperate was she to have a son and heir. I know Xenia mentioned that false pregnancy of Alexandra's in her letters or diary and said Akexandra had supposedly miscarried, but it was more like the ending of a false pregnacy. I'm paraphrasing her words- maybe somebody has the quote. It's appeared in many Romanov bios, I believe.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on April 17, 2009, 05:23:37 AM
The sources we have indicate she believed herself to be pregnant but likely fasely, so desperate was she to have a son and heir.

Then according to these sources she had what that now is called "hysterical pregnancy"?...
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 17, 2009, 05:59:50 AM
Thats correct. But I don't know, if it was THAT what she had or really a miscarriage or none of all. There are too much sources about it. Does anybody know, how much sources write about a miscarriage, a false pregnancy or nothing??...Maybe one can prove that on this way.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on April 17, 2009, 06:45:52 AM
In my favorite book about the Romanovs "Nicholas II and the Tragic End of the Romanovs" by Henri Troyat (that I have mentioned "1000" times around the forum  :)) if I recall correctly it's mentioned the frustration of Alexandra for not being able to give a male heir before the birth of Alexei, and the suffering for the disease of him after, but the author didn't mention "hysterical pregnancy" or miscarriages...but I could remember wrong.
 :-\
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on April 17, 2009, 07:28:44 AM
I've never read that book, but is that a more '' political'' type bio of Nicholas? Maybe that's why it doesn't speculate about such personal issues as miscarriages. We really don't know the truth about the 1902 or 03 one, and the 1896 one seens defintely false.IMO the best words to quote are those of people like Xenia ( as quoted in Romanov bios) who were really there.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on April 17, 2009, 07:40:39 AM
It's not really a political biography of Nicholas II, but Troyat doesn't pay much attention to this kind of things...he mentioned several rumors about the Imperial Family, but he preferred to talk about other things.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 17, 2009, 07:47:35 AM
I see in Greg Kings "The Last Empress" that Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden indicates a miscarriage in her book (don't know its name) and even the French Ambassador Paleologue gives the exactly date of the miscarriage: the first September 1902...I really don't know how accurate and truthful these two people and their sources are.. :-\
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: nena on April 17, 2009, 08:45:30 AM
Her book are:

Her three books were considered to give one of the best accounts of the Romanov family's life and final days. They were Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna, published in 1928; Left Behind: Fourteen Months in Siberia During the Revolution, published in 1929; and Before the Storm.

According to Wikipedia.

I will see in my book about that 1902 miscarriage, it must be something there.  ;-)
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on April 17, 2009, 08:46:46 AM
I see in Greg Kings "the last empress" that Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden indicate a misscarriage in her book (don't know its name) and even the french embassador Paleologue gives the exactly date of the miscarriage: the first septembre 1902...I really don't know how accurate and truthful these two people and their sources are.. :-\

Yes, those are good sources. Nobody really knows whether or not she had a miscarriage in 1902. I think some books say it was a false pregnancy then when it was discovered to be false, it was put about that she had a miscarriage.. less embrassing than admitting to having a false pregnancy. By 1902, pressure for an heir was great.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 17, 2009, 10:13:05 AM
Imagine how hard this pressure must be...after the birth of the fourth daughter it took three years to alexejs birth. Three years! If you see it written, its not that much but do you know how long three years can be...  :o poor Alix, it must be really hard and I can understand, if she imagine a pregnancy. In particular when there are some holy man who declare that the empress is pregnant. But your point is really good: that its been declared that she had a miscarriage, when she discovered that she is not pregnant.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Erika on April 18, 2009, 04:44:50 AM
Here are some quotes from A Lifelong Passion concerning this matter:

Alix to Xenia - 4 April 1902 - Tsarskoe Selo

(...) So it is true and you are sure about yourself, so now I most confess the same thing. I know by your looks you have been thinking it was so, but I on purpose did not tell you, so as that when others asked, you can honestly say that you did not know. Now it begins to be difficult to hide. Don't write to Motherdear, as I want to tell it to her when she returns next week. I feel so well, thank God; in August! - My broad waist all winter must have stuck you!

Tender kisses from you old Hen.

Xenia to Aprak - 19 August 1902 - Alexandria

Dear Aprak

We have all felt so terribly disappointed since yesterday. Can you imagine anything so awful, it seems like poor A.F isn't pregnant after all - for 9 months she had nothing, then suddenly it came, but completely normally, without any pain. The day before yesterday, Ott [Doctor] saw her for the first time and confirmed that there was no pregnancy, but luckily everything internally was all right. He says that such cases do happen, and are caused by anaemia. It's so awful, we can't think about anything else, how terrible for them, painful and sad. All that long, tiresome waiting has ended in nothing! (...)

Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Erika on April 18, 2009, 05:03:20 AM
Some more quotes from A Lifelong Passion.

KR Diary - 20 August 1902

An evant... I don't remember if I already noted this in the diary, but from the 8 August we have been waiting everyday for confirmation of the Empress's pregnancy. Now we have suddenly learnt that she is not pregnant, indeed that there never was any pregnancy, and that the symptoms that led one to suppose it were in fact only anaemia!
What a dissappointment for the Tsar and Tsaritsa! Poor things! Alix sent news of the sad discovery to Mama and my wife. Alix cried a lot when the doctors Ott and Girsh, who were at last admitted to see her, determined that not only was there no pregnancy, but there never been one. (...)


Xenia to Aprak - 20 August 1902 - Alexandria

Just a few words, dear Aprak, in addition to yesterday. This morning A.F. had a minor miscarriage - if it could be called a miscarriage at all! - that is to say a tiny ovule came out! Yesterday evening she had pains, and at night too, by morning it was all over when this event happened! Now at last it will be possible to make an announcement and tomorrow a bulletin will be published in the papers - with information about what happened. At last a natural way out of this unfortunate situation have been found. She is in bed - as a precaution, as there can sometimes be bleeding in such cases. Thank God so far she is in good health. (...)



Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on April 18, 2009, 07:27:40 AM
Thank you very much for posting these quotes!, now the situation is beginning to appear more clear.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: imperial angel on April 18, 2009, 09:38:50 AM
Yes, those are the quotes from Xenia I was refering to. Basically, it was a false pregnancy.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on April 19, 2009, 03:25:10 AM
...and that they declare it a miscarriage to anybody else...thats what we suspected.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 28, 2009, 01:10:01 AM
Thats correct. But I don't know, if it was THAT what she had or really a miscarriage or none of all. There are too much sources about it. Does anybody know, how much sources write about a miscarriage, a false pregnancy or nothing??...Maybe one can prove that on this way.

Without the Empress' medical records, I don't think that anything can be conclusively proven.

But, consider this: Alexandra's pregnancies from Olga through Anastasia resulted in a live births approximately every two years. So, it is likely that her next birth would have been in 1903, which I think would make a miscarriage likely (that's likely, not proven). By 1901, Alexandra had spent over 4 entire years of her life pregnant. Now, everybody's different, but I know of few woman, myself included, who could not tell the difference between really pregnant and fake pregnant. And, we know that Nicholas and Alexandra practiced birth control at various times in their marriage.

Based on the foregoing, my best guess is that the couple planned at least some of their pregnancies, that Alexandra had a miscarriage in 1903, took a well deserved reproductive rest, and then got pregnant with her son in late 1903, delivering him in August 1904.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: myhusbandswife on May 28, 2009, 07:58:30 AM
I agree with Lisa. I think she had an actual miscarriage as well. Also in regards to the "why didn't they keep trying for another boy?" Wow, give the woman a break! :P  She had hard pregnancies and as a mother of 4 myself I know how very hard this can be. My two youngest were both born two months early because of difficult pregnancies. It is extremely hard on a women's body to produce children boom, boom, boom. One right after the other. My Dr. told me that your body needs at least two years to recover from pregnancy and child birth. It seems Alix waited two years between, but it's would still be hard on her body..to just recover and then start all over again. Not to mention she wasn't getting any younger! She was old to be having babies by yesteryear's standards. Just my two cents!
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Alixz on May 28, 2009, 10:23:17 AM
A little OT but - just imagine a woman who has 12 children has been pregnant for nine years of her life.  Yet, there are those who do produce such large families even today.

I does seem interesting that Nicholas and Alexandra did have a childbirth schedule.  Not many in Victorian times would have any idea how to do that.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 10, 2009, 03:58:14 PM
A little OT but - just imagine a woman who has 12 children has been pregnant for nine years of her life.  Yet, there are those who do produce such large families even today.

I does seem interesting that Nicholas and Alexandra did have a childbirth schedule.  Not many in Victorian times would have any idea how to do that.

And I forgot something I heard (I think) from a Romanov family member. Nicholas and Alexandra were told after Alexei's birth that it would be best for her to not have any more babies. They practiced birth control thereafter.

As I sidebar, I was told to not have any more after my second and I did basically the same thing.
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Blanch on July 10, 2009, 12:13:03 PM
A little OT but - just imagine a woman who has 12 children has been pregnant for nine years of her life.  Yet, there are those who do produce such large families even today.

I does seem interesting that Nicholas and Alexandra did have a childbirth schedule.  Not many in Victorian times would have any idea how to do that.

And I forgot something I heard (I think) from a Romanov family member. Nicholas and Alexandra were told after Alexei's birth that it would be best for her to not have any more babies. They practiced birth control thereafter.

As I sidebar, I was told to not have any more after my second and I did basically the same thing.

I didn't know any of those facts, the childbirth schedule and the birth control. It almost seems hard to believe, considering the time we're talking about. I wonder how pregnancies were controlled back then. Also, does anyone know why Nicholas and Alexandra had that births' schedule? 
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 24, 2009, 10:59:45 AM
I've come very late to this thread and haven't managed to read everything on it, so apologies if these points have been raised already. It looks to me very much as though Alexandra's sister Irene and Heinrich of Prussia practised birth control after the birth of their haemophiliac first child Waldemar. They married on 24 May 1888 and Waldemar was born on 20 March 1889, so Irene was pregnant almost immediately, suggesting two highly fertile young people. Yet their second child, Sigismund, was not born until 27 November 1896, more than seven years later, and Heinrich, another haemophiliac, not until 9 January 1900. Unless there were several miscarriages in between, it sounds like birth control which was only partially successful.

Incidentally, by the time Heinrich married Irene, his elder brother the Kaiser had four healthy sons, and the Kaiserin was heavily pregnant with a fifth, so the chances of Heinrich's issue succeeding were low. If Heinrich was concerned that Irene was a carrier before the marriage, he was presumably prepared to take the risk, and the fact that his issue would proabably not succeed may have been a factor. 
Title: Re: Alexei had Hemophilia - Why Didn't Alix and Nicholas try Again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 24, 2009, 11:16:43 AM
A little OT but - just imagine a woman who has 12 children has been pregnant for nine years of her life.  Yet, there are those who do produce such large families even today.

I does seem interesting that Nicholas and Alexandra did have a childbirth schedule.  Not many in Victorian times would have any idea how to do that.

And I forgot something I heard (I think) from a Romanov family member. Nicholas and Alexandra were told after Alexei's birth that it would be best for her to not have any more babies. They practiced birth control thereafter.

As I sidebar, I was told to not have any more after my second and I did basically the same thing.

I didn't know any of those facts, the childbirth schedule and the birth control. It almost seems hard to believe, considering the time we're talking about. I wonder how pregnancies were controlled back then. Also, does anyone know why Nicholas and Alexandra had that births' schedule? 

It's likely that their doctor recommended some recovery time after each pregnancy, which could explain the schedule. Birth control in the late 19th century was mostly using the barrier method. Primarily condoms were used, but many women used sponges rinsed in vinegar.