Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: DeAnochka on May 10, 2004, 11:52:58 PM

Title: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: DeAnochka on May 10, 2004, 11:52:58 PM
This is a thought that I just haven't been able to get out of my head. In King and Wilson's Fate of the Romanovs, there is an account on page 140-141 by Gibbes about the Grand Duchesses on Rus. . .  

"The abuse reached a crescendo as the night wore on. Gibbes, locked away in his cabin, listened helplessly, as he later told his son George, as the drunken guards harassed the Grand Duchesses. 'It was dreadful, what they did,' the former tutor recalled. The 'terrified screams' of the girls, Gibbes said, haunted him 'to the end of his life.'"

I refuse to believe that the girls were raped. I think that the guards probably tried to touch them, but I couldn't imagine them actually being raped.  I felt so sympathetic towards them after reading those pages  :-/
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: bookworm8571 on May 11, 2004, 09:37:59 AM
I don't think it's possible to know whether they were raped.

They were certainly talked to crudely, harassed as they walked to the bathroom under guard, and probably feared rape during their captivity. They were pretty young women surrounded by angry, half-drunk, out of control men who wanted to get even with the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Sarai on May 11, 2004, 09:51:21 AM
JediDeshka,
This topic has been explored on another thread called "Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?" You may want to look there as well for further information.
Title: Re: Pointless conjecture, pointless thread
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 11, 2004, 11:40:54 AM
Given the bragging that these morons engaged in following the alleged murder, and the 'machismo' these lowlifes displayed for the rest of their lives, if anything like that occurred they would have bragged about any such conduct at any opportunity.

No such behavior occurred, let it go, and let this pathetic conjecture die.

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Helen on May 11, 2004, 01:46:53 PM
You're absolutely right, Rodger.

I thank God that the girls were spared such horror! That doesn't mean that the situation wasn't horrible enough as it was.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 11, 2004, 09:35:25 PM
I must apologize to the young lady who started this thread.  I understand that in reading that particular book, your thoughts may have turned to the unlikely scenario you originally inquired about at the outset of this thread.

There is no evidence of any such act(s), and given the nature of the criminal gang that had imprisoned the family, it would have been entirely out of character for them not to have bragged about what virile men they wanted everyone to think they were.  

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: BobAtchison on May 11, 2004, 10:23:03 PM
There is absolutely no evidence they were raped - none anywhere.

I wish this inference had never been published.  It's not personal, we love Greg and Pennny in here and I know they simply felt they were telling the story they had found.  It doesn't say they were raped and I don't think Greg or Penny think they were.  People can read into the account as they want.

Bob

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 11, 2004, 10:47:26 PM
I think perhaps several different incidents got mixed up in this discussion, rendering it less clear. The original poster was asking specifically about the 2nd trip on the Rus, which took place after Nicholas, Alexandra, and Marie were taken to Yekaterinburg.The three remaining sisters and Alexis were taken to their parents from Tobolsk and were again on the Rus for part of the trip.

The poster was not asking about Marie and the guard Ivan S. in Yekaterinburg. The poster was not talking about how guards at either of their 3 imprisonments treated them. So, if we could please confine ourselves to this issue.

I agree there is no direct evidence that the three grand duchesses were raped. However, from what was written and observed, it does appear that the tsar's children were subjected to some type of abuse while on the Rus. I tend to think not rape, as the consequences of rape can be unplanned pregnancy - and the murder of the family had not necessarily been fully planned when this trip was made.

However, as we know from recent events, one need not rape or be a hardened revolutionary to inflict significant damage on a female prisoner. It is evident that Olga was deeply affected by what happened on that part of the trip.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Greg_King on May 11, 2004, 11:18:29 PM
To set the record straight: We have no evidence to suggest rape.  We think it's unlikely, given the manner in which Tatiana and Anastasia continued to associate with their guards and openly flirt with them at the Ipatiev House-that behavior tends to undermine any idea that whatever they were subjected to on the Rus amounted to actual rape.  But we do think that they were assaulted in some manner-be it verbally, or through unwelcome advances-and, as Lisa says, that this had a profound affect on Olga.

While I understand Bob's sentiment I do think, given the amount of information concerning that voyage, it would have been irresponsible historically not to mention what we found.  But in those-and with the incident with Marie at the IH, we were careful to delineate fact from speculation and not to engage in the latter.

Greg King
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: DeAnochka on May 12, 2004, 12:51:00 AM
I really do apologize for posting this question. I hadn't read the "Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov" thread before. It seems foolish of me now to have even brought up the subject. All apologies to anyone I may have offended. This truly is a terrible thing to discuss. I was just seeking some clarity on the particular incident I had read about.

Peace.
Title: Re: those anxieties
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 12, 2004, 01:46:24 AM
Well, it seems to have been a bit of a tempest in a teapot.  

You've even had the opportunity to hear from the author in question regarding your concerns.  So hopefully you can ease your mind and rest easier about your fears, which are most likely unfounded.

   
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Belochka on May 12, 2004, 02:13:42 AM
Pipes at p 762 states that:

"There exist many lurid stories about the abuse of the Imperial family at the hands of the guards.... these stories while not baseless, tend to be exaggerated: the behaviour of the commandant and his guards was undoubtedly rude, but no evidence exists of actual maltreatment."

It is important to place any quoted words into the era from which they were written and not place any inferences into our modern context. By achieving that the meanings take on a completely different complexion.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Adele Chatelain on May 12, 2004, 07:49:45 AM
Quote
I really do apologize for posting this question. I hadn't read the "Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov" thread before. It seems foolish of me now to have even brought up the subject. All apologies to anyone I may have offended. This truly is a terrible thing to discuss. I was just seeking some clarity on the particular incident I had read about.

Peace.


It's wasn't 'foolish' of you at all to bring up the question:  Considering so much rape went on during the chaos of the Revolution, it's no wonder you wanted to know more  about it.    It takes courage to face up to painful possibilities.  I admire you for asking the question.  

Be well!     ---Adele
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Janet_W. on May 12, 2004, 03:16:10 PM
I second the above statements!

While agreeing that no evidence exists that OTMA were assaulted, I think it also should be acknowledged that rape can happen to anyone, whatever the person's age or social class. And--we all know this, right?--the victim should never be blamed, nor ever viewed as less than "worthy," although certainly cultures exist to this very day that consider a woman forever sullied and look the other way if family members kill the victim in the name of "honor."

When I first read that portion of Greg and Penny's book about Gibbes hearing the shrieks of the girls, I immediately closed the book and wouldn't go near it for three days. (And, I might add, was very stressed during that time.) After reading many accounts of the girls and feeling that I knew them almost as well as my own friends, I had grown very fond of them, and the implications of Gibbes' testimony troubled me more than I can describe. Then I read some of the previous postings at this site, followed by a careful reread of the chapter, and gradually I began to reconcile my thoughts about what happened, also taking into consideration today's point by Rodger about the distinct lack of bragging. I think most of us who have read that chapter in FOTR can now agree that the girls were very badly frightened--even  mentally and/or emotionally abused--but not so bad that Tatiana and Anastasia were unable to "bounce back," although Olga--given her own sensibilities--did not.

And again, I agree with Adele's statement: "It takes courage to face up to painful possibilities." I think, in fact, her statement is a good way of summing up Olga's personality.

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Alice on May 23, 2004, 07:40:16 PM
"When I first read that portion of Greg and Penny's book about Gibbes hearing the shrieks of the girls, I immediately closed the book and wouldn't go near it for three days. (And, I might add, was very stressed during that time.)"

Oh Janet, I can relate to this! I was horrified when I read Gibbes' testimony. I had trouble sleeping that night.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Valmont on May 27, 2004, 03:52:41 PM
The thing here is that we can read any  series of events that actually happened, and  the people who published have avidence to back up what they found, and felt they had a dutty to let other to know what they had found, and we can Infere anything as wild as our imagination from those events we are reading, but We cannot ignore Human behavior. I must agree with Rodger. NOTHING would have been more as a Trophey to one of the guards, as having sexually asalted one of the GD. And  they would proudly talked about it  until the end of their days, same as Peter Ermakov, who until his dying day claimed he had burned the bodies and he himself had cast the ashes to the wind....

Best Regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: BobAtchison on May 27, 2004, 06:09:14 PM
I do not believe the Grand Duchesses were raped - as far as I am concerned there is NO EVIDENCE to support this.  I cannot say this more strongly.

I am sorry that this speculation has gone to the extremes it has.  I am worried that this false conclusion is about to become 'fact' for many people simply because speculation along these lines has appeared in a book.

It did not happen.  They were not raped.  Also, the entire family was not raped in Yekaterinburg as has appeared in other books.  I don't understand why these false rape stories get so much attention.

I have been told my Penny and Greg that they don't believe they were raped so I hope the readers are misunderstanding these passages...

Bob
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 27, 2004, 09:16:31 PM
Quote
I do not believe the Grand Duchesses were raped - as far as I am concerned there is NO EVIDENCE to support this.  I cannot say this more strongly.

I am sorry that this speculation has gone to the extremes it has.  


I AGREE!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: ptitchka on May 27, 2004, 10:29:54 PM
I earnestly request that this thread and certain others as controversial be either closed or placed in their own section.  I agree with Bob and AnastasiaFan that mere speculation has been blown way out of proportion.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Belochka on May 27, 2004, 11:40:26 PM
With respect Pravoslavnaya threads should not be closed (censored) because someone may believe that the content is possibly "controversial" or distastful.

We have the freedom to read or participate on any thread which is of interest to us.

The choice is entirely yours whether you open this thread or not.

???
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: borgia on May 28, 2004, 01:22:07 AM
To me,all this topic of talk shows that, we all really do care for our OTMA.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Belochka on May 28, 2004, 01:45:01 AM
Yes borgia its a nice way to look at it.

;)
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 28, 2004, 02:41:01 PM
Quote
I agree with Bob and AnastasiaFan that mere speculation has been blown way out of proportion.


I find it so sad that so many people now believe, or at least speculate, that the girls were raped.  :'(
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Mark_Byron on May 28, 2004, 10:25:09 PM
Well, let me begin by saying Greg and Penny's book was so needed to clarify the Imperial familys last months of captivity-their decent to hell, so to speak. They created a piece of work that will be read for many years to come. It is a sensitive premise brought to fruition. Hard to read at times? Yes. But if you really want to know what the Imperial family felt and went through, it can be hard sometimes to ponder what people can do to each other during a war and a revolution. I DON"T think any thing physical happened to the Grand duchesses' during their Rus trip. I DO think they were subjected to taunting and disgusting treatment from the guards, something they had never experienced before.  Basically coming face to face with the hatred the revolutionaries had for them.  It's not sad to discuss this, it's just a part of trying to understand and feel what it was that they went through.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Olga on May 29, 2004, 04:19:16 AM
Quote

I find it so sad that so many people now believe, or at least speculate, that the girls were raped.  :'(


With respect Anastasia, many parts of history are unpleasant and messy. This is true of the story of the Romanovs, especially towards the end. Just because one person or more finds the topic of this conversation uncomfortable, it does not mean the speculation should be censored. As someone said before, rape can, and does happen, no matter what age, gender or social status the victim holds. I think there is a chance that that OTA Nikolaevna were subjected to some kind of abuse, rape or not. By not talking about something uncomfortable does not mean it will go away.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Merrique on May 29, 2004, 06:52:50 AM
Quote
With respect Anastasia, many parts of history are unpleasant and messy. This is true of the story of the Romanovs, especially towards the end. Just because one person or more finds the topic of this conversation uncomfortable, it does not mean the speculation should be censored. As someone said before, rape can, and does happen, no matter what age, gender or social status the victim holds. I think there is a chance that that OTA Nikolaevna were subjected to some kind of abuse, rape or not. By not talking about something uncomfortable does not mean it will go away.


I agree with Olga on this.Just because some of us think this subject is unpleasant to discuss dones't mean we shouldn't talk about it.It is part of history and I think it's something we can learn from.

History is such a brutal teacher,showing us the many things we are capable of inflicting on our fellow man.It can be so hard to understand why we humans do the things we do.But thats why history is there.To know and to understand so we don't make the same mistakes again.

That being said I do believe something happened to the girls.I don't however think they were raped.But I do believe some kind of abuse happened to them whether it be pyhsical or mental,and those can be almost as bad as rape.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: BobAtchison on May 29, 2004, 09:42:15 AM
Can you imagine the strain they were under?  Any day it could happen to you, your siblings as well as your parents.  Don't forget hundreds of their friends were being killed at the time and they knew it... officers murdered...

Since December 1916 on I think they knew it was just a matter of time before their mother and father would be killed....

What awful times - that they were able to bear it all is a testimony to their strength and love for one another.

Bob

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 29, 2004, 02:12:28 PM
Quote
This is true of the story of the Romanovs, especially towards the end.


I really don't believe it is, though. There is a lot I didn't buy into, espeially that Yurovsky was "sorry" for what he did or that Anastasia really survived. The only time I am willing to put any real trust into the characteristics of the Imperial Family and what may or may not have happened to them is when someone they actually knew well writes about them (letters, diaries, books, etc). That said, I am willing to believe that perhaps something happened on the Rus, but that is only because, as I recall, Gilliard is the one who wrote something about it. He knew them, so I am more willing to believe him. But as has been stated over and over again, there is no evidence of rape. It's not that I find it horrible to think about (though it is a horrible thing) there is just no evidence of it, so I don't understand why people keep bringing it up and questioning whether or not it happened. And besides, I am really not that interested in the so-called "truth" of the Imperial Family's deaths or the events leading up to it. The point is they died, and nothing is going to change that fact. What I am interested in is their normal LIVES prior to the Revolution, which is why I just ordered two new books that will talk and show more about them..........."The Camera and the Tsars" and "The Romanovs and Mr. Gibbes." I am itching for them to hurry up and arrive, especially the latter.  :)
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: DeAnochka on May 29, 2004, 02:45:14 PM
I had no idea that my post would spark so much controversy among boardmembers. I'm sorry that I presented the question in such a blunt manner. I didn't really take into consideration the sensitive nature of the subject. If this thread could, in any possible way, shed new light on someone's opinons on the events that occured during the Family's captivity, then I consider it worth posting.

God bless our beloved girls. We know that they're in a better place now. No one can hurt them anymore.

Dee
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Louise on May 29, 2004, 03:03:50 PM
Rape is a controversial subject matter and I"m not surprised it raised a few comments.

However after reading FOTR's I can see why the assumption is there. The night in question that Gilliard talks about caused many people on this board to be shaken with the possibilty of horrendous actions towards the young women.  

The GD's were very protected, isolated and sheltered from the rough reality of life, and being thrown into the situation they found themselves in would be horrifing enough for them. What really happened that night may never be fully known, but had they been raped, then I'm sure the sorid details would have emerged by now.

How alone, how vulnerable those poor girls were on the Rus, and how abandoned and frightened they must of have without their parents to protect them.

As difficult a suject as rape is,  I think it best that this incident be discussed, the issue raised and then resolved so the rumours, the wondering of what happened is laid to rest.




Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 29, 2004, 03:29:33 PM
OK, here is Volkov's account of the trip on board the Rus, he was on board as well as Gilliard:

"The boat departed at two o'clock and headed in the direction toward Tyumen.  The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable.  No discipline whatsoever.  They fired gun shots and even threw hand grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.

Rodionov locked the Tsarevich in his cabin with the attendant Nagorny, having left the grand duchesses in peace.  Nagorny constantly contradicted Rodionov and quarreled with him.

We arrived at Tyumen the 8/21 May, at eight in the morning."

Now, to me, there are two important parts here.  The first is the exact statment "having left the grand duchesses in peace."  The original French reads: "Rodionov fit enfermer l'héritier dans sa cabine avec le laquais Nagorni, ayant laissé en paix les grandes-duchesses."

Now, the other important part of this is that just a few pages earlier, Volkov spends a lot of time talking about how he almost got shot by Rodionov for refusing to permit the door to the grand duchess's rooms to be left open all night. I feel that his silence here speaks volumes, he would have mentioned something had anything at all occurred to the girls on board the Rus, since he mentions ill treatement of the IF at great length in other parts of the book.

Ref: "Souvenirs d'Alexis Volkov, Valet de Chambre de la Tsarine Alexandra Feodrovna 1910-1918". Payot, Paris 1928, pp.125-126.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Mark_Byron on May 29, 2004, 09:09:04 PM
Actually, though I'm glad we talked our way through this, and I think we all kind of agree the grand duchesses were not physically harmed, whew, glad that's over, I think what we really want to discuss is what was the Imperial familiy's mental state at Ipatiev house? Two of N & A's daughter's were grown women, the other two nearly were. Being in cramped quarters, there had to be a major readjustement in their private lives.I mean, it would be natural for the girls to talk to the guards, their final frontier.Plus N & A had condoms, so there had to be some sort of normalcy there. I would like to discuss what and how you think they endured                                                                      those last two months?
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Maria Vanya on May 29, 2004, 09:24:21 PM
In "The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra", by Peter Kurth, it is said that while they were imprisoned, at night, some of the gaurds often got drunk and waltzed into the granduchesses rooms while they were sleeping and tried to rape them but the girls (supossidly) kept pots or pans under their sheets and pillows, knowing, from past experiences, that the gaurds would try and rape them. But when they came in the room the girls knocked them out. I think that, just maybe, the gaurds tempted to rape them but failed.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Louise on May 29, 2004, 09:50:15 PM
A very interesting question, Mark. How indeed did the girls endure the last months. Personally, I think their faith in God helped them through the adjustment of their lives. I think faith in God, and their innocence in life assisted them through the harshest days. I believe the calm behavior, the gentlemanly demeanor of their father led the family and allowed them to get through the embarrassments, the humilations and the ridicule.

I can't quite remember the quote, but it was from Olga. She said she was glad that she lived in a time when men were kind. I think this simple belief was what helped them endure.

Louise
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 29, 2004, 10:10:14 PM
Personally, I think that pots & pans story dubious at best.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Belochka on May 30, 2004, 02:31:58 AM
Surely if any sort of untoward physical contact was made against any of the girls, then at least one one of the G.D's would have displayed some sort of noticeable change in their demeanor? At no time had any of the girls expressed to anyone that any physical interference had occurred onboard the Rus'. Furthermore Olgas's genuine concern the next day that one of her captors incurred an injury onboard is an important indicator that no harm ever came to Grand Duchesses.

The enforced separation from their parents, facing unknown dangers in a strange environment would have sensitized the Grand Duchesses considerably. The proximity of drunken noisy men acting out, the knowledge of having no place to hide, and the awareness that should they need help they were unable to seek comfort from their protectors - all these considerations would have compounded their fears collectively.

The emotional trauma the Grand Duchesses would have experienced was expressed as the collective voice of absolute fear. Today this eruption has been misinterpreted as reflecting something physical.

Neither Gilliard nor Buxhoeveden suggested that anything physical occurred to any of their precious charges. While Gibbes' statements should be viewed in a different light to that which has been implied by some people. To understand his concerns one should first understand the personality of this caring sensitive man who expoused his own fears, and place his words into the arena of his own complete helplessness.  

Moreover the Empress would have felt instinctively had any of her daughters been physically interferred with when they were all reunited.  Their familial inter-relationships resumed as far as their captive situation permitted. Neither the Empress nor the Emperor ever expressed their personal fears concerning any of their daughter's welfare after they completed their journey on the Rus'.    

IMHO to suggest anything more occurred is only erroneous.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: David_Newell on May 30, 2004, 04:26:53 AM
Just a thought so we can leave this subject, the girls were wearing their jeweled bodices, the ones they had been sewing valubles into at Tobolsk, surely if the unmetionably had happened these would have been discovered!!! I think more and more that something happened and I think its was taunts and foul mouthed abuse from young men who though it was funny. I have seen this in street with strangers. There was always a tension surrounding the family. You are right about Gibbes, he was gay and devoted to his charges and the Empress. He could have not been able to cope with the noise and what he may have dreaded appear to be happening.

David Newell London
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Janet_Ashton on May 30, 2004, 03:06:36 PM
Quote

There is a lot I didn't buy into, espeially that Yurovsky was "sorry" for what he did


I am just wondering why you wouldn't believe that specifically? - It comes from a statement by his own son...

Janet
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 30, 2004, 04:08:56 PM
I'm gonna go with the majority-there's no evidence of rape, and unless someone finds otherwise, that's that.

However, I do think they were subjected to what we would now call sexual harassment.  Crude comments and jokes, the drawings in the bathroom, having to leave the bathroom door open, loss of privacy.

That's bad enough.  

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 30, 2004, 09:46:16 PM
Quote
I am just wondering why you wouldn't believe that specifically? - It comes from a statement by his own son...

Janet


Hi Janet. Well, concerning that statement, I really don't care if it came from his son or Yurovsky himself. I really don't believe that someone like that--who had a lifetime of hatred for the monarchy (as well as the high born, and the Romanovs represented both) would suddenly feel sorry for putting a bullet in their heads. Call me crazy for not putting much faith in a man who didn't mind firing at an unarmed family with innocent children. Yes, I know that some people will say he was just following orders, but you have to consider the person he was prior to the revolution/murders. If what has been written about him is true, then I seriously doubt he was haunted by killing them. His son was most likely trying to make his father come across as best he could.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: masha on May 30, 2004, 10:22:03 PM
David,
when you say that"...the girls were wearing their jeweled bodices, the ones they had been sewing valubles into at Tobolsk, surely if the unmetionably had happened these would have been discovered!!!"
it should be pointed out that their captors already knew the jewels were concealed. Check our Penny & Greg's book  Fate of the Romanovs

Masha
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: David_Newell on May 31, 2004, 05:31:15 AM
yes I know that they probably knew about the jewels, but did the enlisted men know this. I doubt it. I don't think they had any real idea where the jewelry was, just my opinion.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Janet_Ashton on May 31, 2004, 02:31:20 PM
Quote

Hi Janet. Well, concerning that statement, I really don't care if it came from his son or Yurovsky himself. I really don't believe that someone like that--who had a lifetime of hatred for the monarchy (as well as the high born, and the Romanovs represented both) would suddenly feel sorry for putting a bullet in their heads. Call me crazy for not putting much faith in a man who didn't mind firing at an unarmed family with innocent children. Yes, I know that some people will say he was just following orders, but you have to consider the person he was prior to the revolution/murders. If what has been written about him is true, then I seriously doubt he was haunted by killing them. His son was most likely trying to make his father come across as best he could.



Well, OK - that's fair enough. Though perhaps I would add that having a long-time hatred of the monarchy doesn't mean he would automatically proceed to killing children. To be very frank, though you might not like me saying this, I'm not surprised that people hated the monarchy. The Tsarist regime after all, did run something close to a police state - an inefficient one, by modern standards, but a police state neverthless - and even Richard Pipes, who is not noted for his left-wing views, writes this. So I think it's quite possible that a man like Yurovsky, in those extraordinary times, could easily have convinced himself that he had to kill the whole family for the greater good of Russia. Eliminating the monarchy for once and for all, perhaps? And later came to regret it, if only because his neighbours shunned him.

Nicholas II committed or sanctioned brutal acts as Emperor because he believed them necessary - and that includes the killing of unarmed children - but his friends and entourage insist that he came after the revolution to ponder his own responsibility for what had come before. Nicholas's own diary though suggests that he thought he had fallen victim to a vast conspiracy by the Jews and Masons. Probably you accept that his friends' word counts for something, nevertheless.

So, anyway - though I might not be popular for saying this - it seems to me that there was little real difference between Nicholas and Yurovsky, and if we owe understanding to one, perhaps we owe understanding to both?

Just a thought; that's all....

Janet
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 03:49:14 PM
Quote
So, anyway - though I might not be popular for saying this - it seems to me that there was little real difference between Nicholas and Yurovsky, and if we owe understanding to one, perhaps we owe understanding to both?


I absolutely agree with this.  Now that I am on the other side of almost four intensive years of research and writing for FOTR, I cannot believe how naive I was going into the project.  It is now my considered opinion that Nicholas made his executioners in his own image -- however unintentionally.  His was a brutal and savage rule in many ways, and his was also a brutal and savage death.

That said, I DO regret the murders: All of them, from Perm to Petrograd, were probably, in the long run, unnecessary to the Bolshevik cause.  I think Lenin knew the dangers of creating martyrs of the Romanovs -- which is just exactly what the Ural Bolsheviks did.  Had Nicholas, Alexandra, their children and their extended family been exiled from the country, I doubt we'd be talking about them and writing books about them now.  I think they would have faded into obscurity very quickly, and their descendants would now exist as oddities on the far-flung fringes of European society, seen occasionally at one or another royal gathering.  And I truly wish that this had happened for them.  

After writing the FOTR with Greg, I found myself more desperately sorry for the children than I had ever been before; sorrier for Alexandra than I would have ever believed possible, since I've never particularly admired her; and rather ambivalent about Nicholas.  But I also found myself empathizing with the Bolsheviks:  It's hard to say what sort of part I might have played at that time, being today a confirmed social liberal and more than a bit Bolshie myself.  I hope I would have wanted them gone, but not dead.  But the thing that is missing from this sort of contemplation is the anger and rage at the years of oppression and persecution that these people must have borne.  This anger is what drove the Ural Bolsheviks to murder, I am sure of it -- but I'm not sure that I have any right to judge these men and say it was misplaced.  The question I keep coming back to is this:  Were Nicholas' beautiful children any more entitled to the fruits of this earth than the beautiful children of Yakov Yurovsky?  I think not -- and I think that this desire for a better future for their families was also an impetus for the Bolsheviks.  But I still do regret those murders.  So it's a difficult thing to call -- I just try to be aware of the truth and rightness that existed on both sides of the equation.

As far as Yurovsky being sorry for having killed the family -- I believe he was.  Having read the progression of his various "Notes," I can see that he was trying to swallow it whole, trying to work it through in his own mind -- and I don't think he ever quite squared it with his conscience.  One thing that he was NOT was a Charles Manson-type natural-born killer; Yurovsky killed once, and never did again -- he was not the natural force of evil that some people seem to believe him.  As we wrote in the book, Yurovsky was not even a serial criminal before the revolution; all his "crimes" were political -- and it's important to remember, I think,  that while for many here, these murders are emotional, for Yurovsky, they were a political necessity.  Which is not to say that the murders are palatable to me: They're not. I just kind of understand why and how they happened.

Anyone who is interested in Yakov Yurovsky should read Francis McCullough's book that contains his interview with the man -- the only one he ever gave.  It's a fascinating insight into this man -- and having thought a lot about it, I don't see that Yurovsky committed these murders because he was "following orders."  I think he did them because he thought at the time that it was the most correct thing to do.  And he could probably have refused the job, or have come down with "political flu" like his friend Pavlushin did.

This is all very interesting stuff for discussion, I think...
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 31, 2004, 04:27:43 PM
I for myself can not find any truth or rightness in killing innocent people.

The men that murdered the Imperial Family are not judged for their wishing of a better future for their families. They must be judged for their crime.

Someone who can do what they did that night (and in the way they did it), is not a human being any more.

By the way, i find no difference between Yermakov and the Manson´s murderers.

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 05:02:20 PM
Penny's comments go right to the heart of why I cannot endorse her book, res ipsa loquitur, they speak for themselves.   >:(
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 05:02:40 PM
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I for myself can not find any truth or rightness in killing innocent people.


Well, as I said, I do have regrets for the Empress and her children.  Nicholas, I think, was as guilty of killing the innocent as Yurovsky -- the only difference being that Yurovsky did it himself, while Nicholas never got his hands dirty.

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The men that murdered the Imperial Family are not judged for their wishing of a better future for their families. They must be judged for their crime.

Except that wanting to make a change for a better Russia was a reason for the Revolution and -- ultimately -- the murders, pointless as they turned out to be.  This and the weight of a rather righteous anger, are what might be called extenuating circumstances in a court of law.  Perhaps -- in the case of Nicholas -- they might be guilty of manslaughter rather than murder.

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Someone who can do what they did that night (and in the way they did it), is not a human being any more.  


I've heard this argument before, and quite honestly, I think it's too easy of an answer.  It's a cop-out.  People don't lose their humanity through murder; murder IS a human crime -- I don't know of any other species that indulges in it so regularly and so predictably as we do.  I think when we say that people who murder are "no longer human," we are trying to distance ourselves from the crime and that which connects us to the criminal -- our humanity.  Of course, none of us here would commit such a crime -- perhaps this is, in part, why we are fascinated with this family's story.  But we can't simply wash our hands of trying to understand the motivations of the Bolsheviks in general and Yurovsky in this particular by dismissing them from the human race.  It doesn't work that way -- at least not for me...

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By the way, i find no difference between Yermakov and the Manson´s murderers.

I have no idea how Ermakov's psychosis might compare to Manson's.  There may well be parallels, since they both seemed to enjoy their roles as bringers of death.  In this post, though, I was writing about Yakov Yurovsky, not Peter Ermakov.

And without getting too far off topic here, one glaring difference between the murder of Sharon Tate and her friends and the murders of the Romanovs is that it didn't matter who was home at the Cielo Drive house -- any member of the white establishment would have satisifed Manson's plan.  The Romanovs were killed specifically because of their family name and history.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 05:15:58 PM
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Penny's comments go right to the heart of why I cannot endorse her book, res ipsa loquitur, they speak for themselves.   >:(


Oh, come now, Rodger!  You're trying to make a monster of me! I would think that you of all posters here would appreciate the value of a somewhat dissenting opinion -- and after all, I'm not endorsing the murders.  I said specifically in several places that I disagreed with the murders of the Empress and the children, but that I can see the why behind Nicholas' killing.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 31, 2004, 05:43:47 PM
Hello Penny,

I´m afraid that i have not the necessary knowledge of this language for disscusing so complex a subject.

Well, at least i don´t think Nicholas ordered to kill any innocent child.

I can understand what you said about the bolsheviks´anger, and have tried many times to put myself in the place of those people that had to see how their own children died in poverty. I can understand they hated what the monarchy-aristocracy simbolized.
What made the difference is that in the Ipatie house they planed and comitted the murder with "cold mind"(hope you understand, because ít´s the way we say it in spanish and cannot translate).

When i said they were not human being any more i meant not in the sense you explained. When i say someone is a human being i mean that he/she has those good qualities due to the humanity. However i know this could be only my opinion, and therefore it´s my mistake not having expressed it correctly.

I agree with you about the difference between the crime in Ekaterinburg and Cielo Drive. I know you spoke about Yurovsky, but since you also commented on the bolsheviks i took Yermakov for example.
He and the Manson´s girls(and boy) in Cielo Drive were following orders and have their "reasons" to do what they did.

In a murder i can try to understand the facts driving the killers to do what they do but there is still no reason to justify it.

That´s what i poorly tried to explain.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 05:54:05 PM
And what precisely is this 'why' by which you can see some (obscure) justification for killing Nicholas?

Of course, this is an academic question because much to the Bolshevik's chagrin, Nicholas along with his family, were rescued.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 31, 2004, 06:01:34 PM
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And what precisely is this 'why' by which you can see some (obscure) justification for killing Nicholas?

Of course, this is an academic question because much to the Bolshevik's chagrin, Nicholas along with his family, were rescued.


Hello Rodger,

Are you answering Penny or me? Your message apeared after mine but cannot find in my words anything making you to say that i found a justification for killing Nicholas....
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 06:04:29 PM
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Hello Penny,

I´m afraid that i have not the necessary knowledge of this language for disscusing so complex a subject.


And I'm sorry I don't have the Spanish!  You'd think I would, living in Southern California, wouldn't you?  But I think your English is pretty excellent, anyway!

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Well, at least i don´t think Nicholas ordered to kill any innocent child.


Not specifically by name, at any rate.  But I am referring to the various state-sanctioned pogroms and the innocents murdered then...

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I can understand what you said about the bolsheviks´anger, and have tried many times to put myself in the place of those people that had to see how their own children died in poverty. I can understand they hated what the monarchy-aristocracy simbolized.
What made the difference is that in the Ipatiev house they planed and comitted the murder with "cold mind"(hope you understand, because ít´s the way we say it in spanish and cannot translate).


We say "in cold blood" in English -- it means the same thing.  And yes, insofar as the murders of Alexandra and the children are concerned, you and I are in total agreement.

I believe that the cold blooded decision to murder Alexandra and her children was taken in order to "cross the Rubicon," as it were -- to make a sign that the Revolution had gone this far and that there was no going back.

And I also think that with the White Army approaching Ekaterinburg, and no guarantee that the Whites weren't going to win the Civil War right then, that there was a certain element of "getting rid of the evidence."  

But we are in complete agreement about the murders of A and the children -- most of this situation appears to me not in black and white, but in shades of grey, but the murders of the Romanovs who were not Nicholas and any of the retainers and servants do look pretty black to me.

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When i said they were not human being any more i meant not in the sense you explained. When i say someone is a human being i mean that he/she has those good qualities due to the humanity. However i know this could be only my opinion, and therefore it´s my mistake not having expressed it correctly.


OK.  I misunderstood you.  I see what you mean, and yes, I would agree that at the time of the murders, these fairly normal and otherwise unremarkable men did abandon what Abraham Lincoln called "the better angels" of their souls.

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I agree with you about the difference between the crime in Ekaterinburg and Cielo Drive. I know you spoke about Yurovsky, but since you also commented on the bolsheviks i took Yermakov for example.
He and the Manson´s girls(and boy) in Cielo Drive were following orders and have their "reasons" to do what they did.

In a murder i can try to understand the facts driving the killers to do what they do but there is still no reason to justify it.

That´s what i poorly tried to explain.


No, you explained it just fine.  I get you now.  And I think that we only disagree about Nicholas.  I can understand why the assassins killed him -- as Yurovsky himself said, "I fired at Nicholas, and everyone else did too."  It was the rage at Nicholas specifically that drove them -- for reasons already outlined here.

The saddest thing for me remains the fact that all these murders were just so pointless.  By the time they happened, there was no way that Nicholas was heading back onto the throne -- things had progressed too far in Russia, and the Dynasty was obsolete.  It's a shame that the Family weren't, in the words of one of the guards, "allowed to escape."
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 06:05:57 PM
I'm sorry Antonio, that was directed to Penny.  

And Penny, no, I don't believe you are a monster.  So I apologize to you personally, and to anybody who gets that impression from my post.   :-[
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Guinastasia on May 31, 2004, 06:12:42 PM
Rescued?  Rescued how?  And what happened to them?  

Why didn't anyone hear about it?

As for the Mansons, they were a bunch of nutjobs.  I don't think you can compare them to Yurovsky and co.

And while I'm VERY anti-death penalty, one can make a case for the execution of the Tsar, as he was the former ruler and as such, responsible for what happened under his watch.  (NOT that I'd agree with execution, just that I'm a realist).

The rest of the family and the retainers-no way.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 06:20:03 PM
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And what precisely is this 'why' by which you can see some (obscure) justification for killing Nicholas?


It's not really all that obscure, Rodger:  For the Bolsheviks, I believe that Nicholas personified the wrongs -- or crimes, if you will --  of his dynasty.  He represented the years of political and personal oppression, the lack of any sort of personal rights, and the murders of thousands of his subjects through pogroms and other policies.

That's the short answer.  And you'll notice that nowhere did I say that murdering him was something that I would do -- just that I understood WHY these men would.  Understanding is not necessarily the same as agreeing. An analogy: I understand WHY many murderers in this country are executed, without personally agreeing with the death penalty.  

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Of course, this is an academic question because much to the Bolshevik's chagrin, Nicholas along with his family, were rescued.


So my question now is:  Do you object to my book because of my not-so-shocking opinions, or because we wrote that the Romanovs died?  Hmmm....  8)

And as I've tried to explain myself here -- and stand ready to explain again because this is a huge subject, my thoughts of which are hard to contain in one or two posts -- why don't you explain yourself now?   You've hinted around quite a bit -- but please explain as much as you can about how this rescue took place.  I am truly and genuinely interested.  I would be absolutely delighted if no murder at all took place! :D

Penny
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 31, 2004, 06:21:45 PM
Rod thinks that just because the Gill dna evidence may be in question that the REST of the physical evidence does not matter and that the remains in Ekaterinburg are not the IF et al.

As for the Manson murders, they were more than "nut jobs" but not quite Yurovski and co.  I lived less than 1.5 miles from Cielo Drive when the murders happened, and remember that night vividly.  A VERY close friend of the family was very close to Sharon Tate, and Sharon had called her that evening to come join them at the house. Our friend had to beg off expecting a call from the UK that night and said she would stop in for coffee in the morning...she drove up to Cielo, but did not stop as she realized she was too late for an appointment; she otherwise would have been the one to find the bodies. She spend six months in hiding and on medication after that.

Manson et al were similarly motivated to the Bolsheviks in that they wanted to start a "revolution" by their murders...but that is all. They had no hatred for their victims per se....they were chosen at random...Yurovski and co knew exactly WHO they were killing, and why.
However, we digress from the 'rape' part of the discussion of this thread..ahem ahem.
my two cents.
FA
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 06:22:07 PM
There are plenty of credible but suppressed reports of the rescue.  You'll just have to look a little deeper.

Now, here's a hypo for someone who endorses the goofy concept of respondeat superior which you Guiastasia, are endorsing.

Imagine that your country has the law that whatever crimes are committed in your country by people under your charge, you are responsible for.  Can you see how this would lead to extreme injustice?

For example, under such a system (and it is the legal standard in California) a leader who has no direct control of those under him or her is responsible for crimes committed that he or she has no ability to control!

Here's another example, imagine that this leader has persons under his or her authority who secretly covet or even disagree with him or her and want that person to be embarassed or even made guilty of crime.  All they have to do is commit some atrocity, or even sanction it, and the leader is held responsible for something that he or she would not in any way, shape or form endorse, let alone want to have happen.  

Can you see why your argument regarding Nicholas' 'responsibility' or 'punishment' fails?  
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 06:24:13 PM
FA's explanation of my thinking, or knowledge, is inadequate and does not represent my assertions on the matter.

However, I refuse to go into detail.  So, I suppose since there is a vacuum, his comments are as good as any, I suppose. . .   ::)
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 06:27:01 PM
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There are plenty of credible but suppressed reports of the rescue.  You'll just have to look a little deeper.


You tease, Rodger! :-*

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Can you see why your argument regarding Nicholas' 'responsibility' or 'punishment' fails?  


I can understand how it fails philosophically.  Absolutely.  But I don't think we are dealing with philosophers in Ekaterinburg.  I think we are dealing with an act of pure "people's revenge."
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 06:31:29 PM
Then if there was a 'People's Revenge,' why wasn't Ipatiev House stormed by thousands of angry peasants with pitchforks?

If there was so much anger, the guards would have let them in, don't you think?
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Sunny on May 31, 2004, 07:40:06 PM
Wish there was a "thumbs up" icon for: "Then if there was a 'People's Revenge,' why wasn't Ipatiev House stormed by thousands of angry peasants with pitchforks?

If there was so much anger, the guards would have let them in, don't you think?"  


While I don't think the bones buried in the fortress are the family, I've never questioned the murders. I also think that the "truth" is a lot 180 degrees away from what is accepted as truth. Rodger, I hope that at some point you might relate something of what leads you to believe the family was rescued.

Sunny
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 31, 2004, 08:42:25 PM
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Penny's comments go right to the heart of why I cannot endorse her book, res ipsa loquitur, they speak for themselves.   >:(


That is one thing I agree with you on, Rodger. The being a little bit "Bolshie" comment sheds a lot of light on many things now!!! And I will never believe that man felt any sorrow for what he did, especially if he wasn't following orders yet decided to take part in the killings anyway. And I mean no disrespect to you Penny, I just don't try to justify or "understand" his motives.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 31, 2004, 09:06:24 PM
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FA's explanation of my thinking, or knowledge, is inadequate and does not represent my assertions on the matter.

However, I refuse to go into detail.  So, I suppose since there is a vacuum, his comments are as good as any, I suppose. . .   ::)


Rod, lets be fair. YOU yourself have jumped on many posters who assert statements without "going into detail". No harm meant on my part, but if you have more to back up your assertions, lets hear them. If not, you should not be throwing stones.

Rob
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 09:19:49 PM
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The being a little bit "Bolshie" comment sheds a lot of light on many things now!!!


Oh, does it now?  Do tell...  ;)

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And I mean no disrespect to you Penny, I just don't try to justify or "understand" his motives.


Of course you meant me disrespect, AnastasiaFan.  I don't know how else you might have meant your above comment.  But don't worry about it -- I'm not!   :-*

Edited to say:  My kissy-face isn't kissing!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 09:52:06 PM
Rob, there is so much that was rejected out of hand by Sokolov and others, and unjustifiably so.  Am I going to cite one particular published paper that presents per se prima facie evidence that proves conclusively for all time against all comers that the Imperial family survived?  No.  

But there are more than enough published materials to justify my belief about rescue and survival.  
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Mark_Byron on May 31, 2004, 09:58:27 PM
O.K. here goes.
I think the topic now is was Nicholas's execution neccesary and viable. It was inevitable, in my mind. No country would touch him. Why? Because Nicholas' government represented a massive surpression of civil rights for its people. That's all well and fine as long as he didn't push his policies into other countries. But went he fell from power, "Sorry, bud, you're on your own." I'm thinking of cousin Georgie.
As far as the feelings of the revolutionaries, I agree with Penny. Imagining pulling on an elastic band, as far as it can go, then letting go. That was the people's frame of mind when the monarchy expired. Savage actions on the rebound.
What will never be reconciled in our minds is the decision to shoot the entire family.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 31, 2004, 10:03:19 PM
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Oh, does it now?  Do tell...  ;)


Yes, it does...on why certain things are in your book.


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Of course you meant me disrespect, AnastasiaFan.  I don't know how else you might have meant your above comment.


No I didn't mean any disrespect, which was why I went out of my way to say that. Trust me, if I had meant any disrespect, you would know it. All I meant was that comment made sense concerning some of the beliefs you hold.

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Edited to say:  My kissy-face isn't kissing!


Now THAT'S mature! How old are you? Four? Your credibility has really gone down a few notches there!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 10:05:38 PM
To 'Mark Byron'

You are using a modern politically correct standard, 'civil rights', and applying it to a different age.  

You are therefore committing the ultimate historical fallacy, chronological ethnocentricism.  

But just for the sake of argument, which government at any point in history has completely and indisputably applied the standard of civil rights to everyone's satisfaction?

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: DeAnochka on May 31, 2004, 10:12:29 PM
*jumps in*

Wow, isn't it amazing how this thread has evolved?  :o

I'm only 16, but you guys are all starting to sound. . . well, immature. No offense whatsoever. I don't want to start anything. . .  
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 31, 2004, 10:25:05 PM
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*jumps in*

Wow, isn't it amazing how this thread has evolved?  :o

I'm only 16, but you guys are all starting to sound. . . well, immature. No offense whatsoever. I don't want to start anything. . .  


I agree with the immature nature, which is why I don't want to stoop to that low level. And for a 16-year-old, you are pretty wise.  :)
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on May 31, 2004, 10:34:02 PM
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Now THAT'S mature! How old are you? Four? Your credibility has really gone down a few notches there!


Oh, Lordy!  I thought it was obvious that mine was a light-hearted remark.  You know -- a joke.  Clearly, I am not really upset that the smiley-face isn't kissing.  You seem determined to misunderstand me and paint me in colors that aren't mine.

So I'll just leave it here...
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?:
Post by: Mark_Byron on May 31, 2004, 10:34:17 PM
Rodger:
I hear ya. Good points! Got me thinking of Teddy Roosevelt expounding on the Nicholas' Jewish pograms after the 1905 revoution while lynchings were going on in his own country.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on May 31, 2004, 10:39:27 PM
Okay, try this:

Please locate an authentic document issued by the Tsar that goes something like this:

'I Nikolai, By the Grace Of God, do hereby authorize my peasants and drunken soldiers to rape, murder and kill All Jewish persons living on my estate.'

Go ahead.  Look hard.  Take your time.  
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on May 31, 2004, 10:54:03 PM
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Oh, Lordy!  I thought it was obvious that mine was a light-hearted remark.  You know -- a joke.
 

People are not stupid, Penny. I am not the only one who knew your comment was no joke. Someone commented to me personally about your malice remark and how it was uncalled for. And as other people have stated on this board, it is quite obvious that there was no humor involved and that it was immature.

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You seem determined to misunderstand me and paint me in colors that aren't mine.


I have absolutely no reason to do that. Why would I even *care* to do that? Trust me, my goal in life isn't to misjudge the intentions and thoughts of Penny Wilson.  

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So I'll just leave it here...


Good idea.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Greg_King on June 01, 2004, 12:38:28 AM
A couple of salient points, on a thread that now has nothing to do with its title:

1.  The Execution: The death of Nicholas II has, I think, to be looked at for what it was-a political execution, in a time of war.  Avoiding this reality ignores the basic forces that drove it in the first place.  Nicholas was viewed by nearly all his formerly allied countries as a fallen tyrant, a view largely echoed within Russia-the majority of the White Army didn't even want him back on the Throne.  This view informs the execution in the same way that others regarded as being similar have fallen victim in revolutions.  Understanding the motives behind N's death specifically place it in context; that's not to say that from this the justified murder of his family follows-it doesn't, nor does it pretend to justify N's death-merely that it was what could have been expected in these circumstances.  It's a question of understanding N's execution versus sympathizing or promoting it, which I don't see anyone here doing.
2.  On Yurovsky: The idea that he was, from his birth, a rabid, anti-monarchist, Communist butcher is just wrong.  When he was twelve he cheered the then Tsesarevich Nicholas during his 1891 visit to Tomsk on his return to Petersburg across Siberia.  His own writings even show that he was ambivalent about the eventual murders-he wrote specifically that after he came to know them it was hard to hate them, but he hated the system that N had represented.  Right after the murders, he was found collapsed on his sofa upstairs at the Ipatiev House, completely overwhelmed.  There's much more in his unpublished 1922 memoirs that speak to his regret over the murders, so I think simply refusing to believe both his evidence and the evidence of those in whom he confided is done at the risk of ignoring the mass of evidence in favor of personal prejudice.
3.  The Yermakov-Manson business: Since I wrote about Sharon Tate and the murders, and am good friends with Sharon's sister Debra, I have to say here (and this is outside the scope of this discussion but an important point on which I feel strongly) that in both instances-the Romanov execution and the Manson murders-those who participated did so of their own free will.  Nothing makes me more irrate than the commonly held idea that the people who killed Sharon were simply mindless puppets acting under Manson's orders, because it absolves them of complete responsibility for their own actions.  In both cases, all who participated are equally guilty.

Greg King
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Robert Wisener, PA on June 01, 2004, 04:05:16 PM
Wow.  People need to calm down.  Penny-I agree with your position completely and find you to be more knowledgeable about the Romanovs compared to AnastasiaFan.   You've spent countless years (not days or hours) pouring over documents that none of us have ever seen, spent countless hours interviewing those with ties to the Romanovs, and have spent innumerable amounts of blood, sweat, and tears writing a great book "Fate of the Romanovs" and the Atlantis magazine.  Hows that for credentials!  You know the Romanovs, you know Russia.  AnastasiaFan needs to relax and learn how to laugh.  

I found the "Fate of the Romanovs" to be highly thought-provoking and presented new ideas that were gleaned after extensive research.

If I were a Jewish person living in Russia under Nicholas's rule and had a relative who died thanks to the programs, I'd want to see him dead just as much as I'd want to see Hitler burned at the stake.  If I had a child who died during Bloody Sunday, I would want to see Nicholas dead too.  An eye for an eye--that's just human nature to want revenge for years of oppression and intolerance.  I'm very fortunate to live in a time period where government has a responsibility to best serve those they represent--its called accountability.  
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Robert Wisener, PA on June 01, 2004, 04:12:52 PM
I think AnastasiaFan needs to start acting her age and not her IQ.  And since she seems to have problems deciphering jokes, here's a face I hope she understands!   >:(

Have a great day!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Reed on June 01, 2004, 05:03:51 PM
I think the title for this thread needs to be changed....maybe to "The Next Russian Revolution!"  And we wonder why the Romanovs couldn't get along???   8)  Really......let's get back to being civil to one another.....!!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Maria_Vanya on June 01, 2004, 05:09:08 PM
Exactly what I was thinking Reed!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Louise on June 01, 2004, 06:02:55 PM
I found nothing malicious in Penny's posts, and yes I think it's best that everyone develop a sense of HA HA.

That said,  the post originally 4 pages back was Were the Grand Duchesses raped?  I think Bob has said it all. There is no evidence that the girls were raped. Harmed, yes. Emotionally raped, emotionally abused probably yes. We have Penny and Greg's wonderful research to attest to this.

So, I have gone back to the library and borrowed Fate of the Romanov's to re-read it all over again.

It is on my list of books to buy, as I have purchased other books. I kinda figured that seeing you two post here, what better way for this student  to learn all there is to know from  the teachers and scholars! I'll buy it soon. Promise

Louise

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 01, 2004, 06:46:24 PM
Ok,
Just a gentle reminder to everyone and no specific person.
Lets keep the main focus of the thread, please. If you want to discuss the murder of Nicholas II or the IF, great, just please start a new thread. This thread is about the allegations of rape between Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg.

And, more importantly, please respect each others' opinions. Disagreement is fine, but lets please stay on a "civil" level and refrain from the personal attacks.
We should all stand a bit embarassed that a 16 year old had to remind the users to act in an adult fashion.
I would have jumped in sooner, but poor Bob has been without his computer since early saturday morning....Serious repair issues it seems. It has been in the hands of the repair wizard "expert" since then...so Im doing double duty here. He has been dead in the water for days now...he is going thru Internet withdrawal
;D it is worse to watch than nicotine withdrawal! Just kidding, but if you have emailed him this weekend, that is the reason why no one has heard back from him...He is not a happy camper. he will answer everyone asap once the computer is back.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: borgia on June 01, 2004, 07:06:02 PM
    If something is done to honor the Romanovs anniversary ,perhaps some contributation could be made to a Russian womens help center,in special honor of  OTMA.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on June 01, 2004, 08:21:22 PM
Quote
I think AnastasiaFan needs to start acting her age and not her IQ.



I really think you need to take your own advice, honey. Your own words aren't making you look too bright at the moment.  ;)

Quote
Have a great day!


Though this part isn't directed at me, I will still stop and say, "you have a nice day as well." I could make a smart remark, but you know what? I think I'll be the bigger person.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: AnastasiaFan on June 01, 2004, 08:30:58 PM
Quote
I lived less than 1.5 miles from Cielo Drive when the murders happened, and remember that night vividly.  A VERY close friend of the family was very close to Sharon Tate, and Sharon had called her that evening to come join them at the house. Our friend had to beg off expecting a call from the UK that night and said she would stop in for coffee in the morning...she drove up to Cielo, but did not stop as she realized she was too late for an appointment; she otherwise would have been the one to find the bodies. She spend six months in hiding and on medication after that.


I was looking for an older post when I saw what you wrote about your friend. I hadn't noticed it before. OMG! That is so scary!

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Sunny on June 01, 2004, 09:49:47 PM
Rob, my sympathies to Bob...whenever there is a problem with the computer in this house,  milling around the machine can get intense.  :-/

Sunny
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Louise on June 01, 2004, 09:55:51 PM
I know this isn't the thread but...I can't imagine going computerless. I shake my head and I shudder. Say hi to Bob and tell him that he is in my thoughts. Ummm, just an idea, but I think a second computer in the house night hep avoid this terrible problem in the future.

Louise
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 01, 2004, 10:40:02 PM
Louise,
I have my own personal computer, which I use for the forum admin and my own work. Pallasart has computers as servers, but Bob cant work on them as they are devoted to being servers. He has his own computer with all his files and data on it, there are back up disks, but without his  computer, he is dead. It just isnt feasible at this time for him to have two identical computers, backing up data and files from one to the other, running two sets of software etc etc. In all these years, this is the longest time his computer has been down.  Poor Chuck, the mac wizard, was up all night last night trying to chase down the bad files after three full days, he didn't even take the holiday off. They can't just erase files without losing too much stuff, so they have to try to save as much data as possible while searching for the bad stuff. You can't imagine what four full days of lost time means to Bob. This is also why the June newsletter will be a few days late.
Thanks to you all for your kind words. Bob appreciates it all more than you know, he just wants his computer back! The last time he was this upset is when his dog was at the vet's overnight.

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 01, 2004, 10:51:51 PM
My sympathy and best wishes for a full and rapid computer recovery for Bob.

Myself, I am going to have to have a root canal later this week.   :-[

The bad part is having to wait to get it done.   :-/
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?:
Post by: Guinastasia on June 01, 2004, 11:10:58 PM
Quote
Rodger:
I hear ya. Good points! Got me thinking of Teddy Roosevelt expounding on the Nicholas' Jewish pograms after the 1905 revoution while lynchings were going on in his own country.



VERY good point.  Especially considering Teddy's treatment of the Panamanians in building the canal and how he screwed them over, as well as Columbia.

Greg, I'm sorry if I painted that picture of the Manson murders, and I'm very sorry for what happened.  

Ouch, poor Bob-I just got my new computer and went through a month of withdrawal.  Not to mention I still have yet to get all the stuff off of my old hard drive.  It's not fun.

One thing I do remember reading is that after the murders, some of the men who came to help with the burial were angry because they had wanted to rape the girls...but from what I gather, Yurovsky probably wouldn't have allowed it.  

There was also a mention that one of the thugs was fondling the Empress's corpse!  

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 01, 2004, 11:13:34 PM
Quote

Myself, I am going to have to have a root canal later this week.   :-[  


Don't worry, Rodger!  My brother had his first root canal last week, and despite all the negative anticipation, it didn't hurt a bit!

Quote

The bad part is having to wait to get it done.   :-/


You're not kidding!  Next Monday, I'm under the knife for some minor surgery.  Well, it's more of a cancer test than surgery -- not that I have it, but my dad did, so now that I'm over 35, I have to have this baseline thing done.  And because it's intrusive, I have to be sedated -- and I HATE sedation.  I always imagine I'm not going to come back out of it...  :o

But the wait IS the worst part -- too much time to think...
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Lanie on June 01, 2004, 11:15:29 PM
Ouch to the computer--I hope it's fixed soon!

Ow ow ow to the root canal and the surgery.  I'm having surgery in December to correct my underbite and I'm deathly afraid of needles... aie.   :o

I personally don't think the girls were raped... harrassed, definitely.  Raped?  Probably not, if only because it seems to me something they'd all brag about.  I've not yet read Greg and Penny's book (I want to!) so.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 01, 2004, 11:19:15 PM
My toothache is a mere annoyance.  :-/

You are in my prayers for good health!  

But this thread is really too much, and there are some genuinely inappropriate images being presented here.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?:
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 01, 2004, 11:26:12 PM
Quote

One thing I do remember reading is that after the murders, some of the men who came to help with the burial were angry because they had wanted to rape the girls...but from what I gather, Yurovsky probably wouldn't have allowed it.  


Yes, I remember this too.  These were Ermakov's men, and I'm not sure that Yurovsky -- with only a few of his own men with him at the time -- would have been able to control them.  It just goes to show that while things were dreadful, they could have been much worse.  :-[

Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Guinastasia on June 01, 2004, 11:31:38 PM
Good luck with the tooth.  I've had oral surgery (twice!) and a root canal.  Neither were a big deal, other than being inconvenienced.

Just an excuse to eat lots of pudding!
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: _Rodger_ on June 01, 2004, 11:34:41 PM
Since I'd love to see this thread disappear, I'm going to create a 'poster's health forum,' so we can compare and contrast our various aches and pains.

Another service provided by the Claimant Committee. . . :D
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Janet_W. on June 02, 2004, 01:19:25 AM
Poster's health forum, Rodger? Are you serious?!  :o (Need I ask?!)  :P Well, actually why not. We've all become sort of a club . . . or is that one big happy/sometimes unhappy semi-functional family?!?   :-*  
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Sunny on June 02, 2004, 06:05:21 AM
.........."or is that one big happy/sometimes unhappy semi-functional family"  ::) Will keep all who are dealing with the medical side of life in my prayers.

Sunny
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Reed on June 02, 2004, 10:26:01 AM
I agree with Rodger...I would like to see this thread eliminated.  I realize that this possibility did exist as the girls were always in a position of danger, but there has been no real evidence put forward to substaniate the idea, except for emotional abuse.  The corpse of the Empress being fondled.....really....there are children here.  I'm sure I will be criticized for wanting to interfere with research and knowledge....but even the experts in this forum don't believe it happened.  Let's let the GDs rest in peace on this issue.   Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 02, 2004, 10:55:56 AM
Agreed -- this dead horse has been flogged.

Perhaps it is time to lock this thread -- if only because it has veered so far off topic.  If anyone wants to discuss any of the subjects contained in this thread, maybe they could just start a new thread specifically for that topic?