Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Rasputin => Topic started by: Tonya M on February 17, 2004, 02:23:21 PM

Title: Rasputin's "Powers" and His Family Name.
Post by: Tonya M on February 17, 2004, 02:23:21 PM
I have a question when Iwas learning about Rasputin in a world civilization course. I was told that Rasputin believed that his healing powers could not be obtained unless he slept with a woman. Is this true
Title: Re: Rasputin's healing powers
Post by: Katharina on February 19, 2004, 02:37:46 AM
Dear Tonya,

I do not think so, not at all!
This statement probably reveals your teacher's character more than Rasputin's.
Were you told by a male or a female person?

Have you ever thought of Rasputin as a poor sinner?  "Of course not!" you might answer.
But now have a look at what two contemporaries noted:

(Sophie Buxhoeveden)
"After each bout his contrition was equally extreme and was followed by a renewal of religious ardour. His soul seemed to be divided into two parts: the one a kind of heaven and the other a kind of hell, in each of which he seemed to dwell in turn."

(Pierre Gilliard)
"It is true that he showed the greatest contrition for his wrongdoings, but that did not prevent him from continuing them."

Sometimes you may wish things to be completely black or white but it is not as easy as that. In my opinion Rasputin was neither a nearly immortal monster nor possessed by the devil.

Maybe Rasputin truly believed in God.
In order to obtain forgiveness you have to be penitent. Maybe that's what Rasputin actually was although it seems as if he did not change his behavior.

Though praying fervently Alexandra had the feeling that God did not listen to her. According to the tsarina Rasputin acted as a kind of intercessor. She considered him a kind of scapegoat or substitute sinner, which - I admit - was on the other hand a pretty fine excuse for any misconduct.

I am quite sure Rasputin did not believe in human abilities to actually heal people. In his and in Alexandra's opinion it was the Almighty's part to grant salvation.

That doesn't match with the theory you refer to.

Katharina
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: tonya m on February 23, 2004, 04:56:33 PM
Dear Kathrina,
I didn't mean ( did rasputin gain his healing powers through sex) What I meant was Not looking at is from a religous point of view only looking it from a history point of view He was said to have requested several women companions to enable him to have the POWER to heal these people though I believe that Rasputin didn't get that power from god because of his questioned dark beliefs

Title: Rasputin
Post by: 3710 on April 01, 2004, 02:47:28 AM
But there is a new (fairly) biograthy of Rasputin, written by (much critisized here) Radzinsky. And he sounds if not sympathetic, but at least trying to understand his charachter.
Galina
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Greg_King on April 01, 2004, 03:48:49 AM
Quote
But there is a new (fairly) biograthy of Rasputin, written by (much critisized here) Radzinsky. And he sounds if not sympathetic, but at least trying to understand his charachter.
Galina


At the risk of coming off a bit hard: Radzinsky's book on Rasputin is a disappointment in every way.  His so-called new information has been available in published form since the 1920s-he just got hold of the original missing depositions.  I have real problems with that book-from his grotesque characterizations of so many people, his lack of understanding about the religious aspects of Rasputin's life, background, etc., his picture of Rasputin at the height of his power and influence, etc.  Radzinsky clearly approached the book as a mystery story, interjecting himself into its telling, expending pages asking questions that he then answered 10 pages later and whose answers were in any case well known, and trying to throw in as much scandal and gossip as he seemed to find (from the Khlysty accusations to the nonsense about Anna Vyrubova being a lesbian, and hinting that Alix and Rasputin may have had an affair).  No, I'm sorry, but his so-called "Last Word" just isn't.  I like him (Radzinsky) on a personal level and have spent some time with him, but with this book he lost me.

Greg King
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: 3710 on April 01, 2004, 04:17:16 AM
I expected you would say something like that, Greg.
There is a difference between a ''historian'' and  ''writer writting on historical subject'', as R. calles himself.
He did not invent the Khlusty line (or Anna's lesbian tendencies), though. I have heard it before. And he does not actually say: ''this is the  true as it was'', he just merely suggesting, that it could be the case.
Anyway, Radzinky has a very wise responce to his critics ''You are right''.
Let him ''be'', please! :) His book is not the worst thing ever written about of Rasputin.
G.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on April 01, 2004, 08:38:57 AM
I agree with Greg - I just reread Radzinsky's book on Rasputin and it amazes me how he claims that he discovered all of these things that have been in plain view for years.

The only part I found really interesting was how he was able to inject Vera Karalli into the story.  She is a very interesting figure to me.

Also I have nothing but contempt for his sensationalism of sexual rumours about Alexandra and Vyrubova- that he knows not to be true - in order to get publicity and sell books.

Bob
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Louise on April 01, 2004, 09:58:11 AM
There is a good reason that Radzinsky's book is critisized, and it is the main reason that I didn't or won't add this book to my collection.

When reading the reviews for this book, I read that he wrote/strongly implied that the Empress and Rasputin had an affair. To me that is blasphamie.

Anyone with half a wit knows that Alix was devoted to her husband and to have an affair was not in her character. That Radzinsky would stoop to this level to sell his book, made me lose all respect for him.

Had his book on Rasputin been written 50 years ago, with the rumours still fairly fresh about the Empress, I would have taken it with a grain of salt. However, to write such a book in this day and age with what we know now is ludicrous.

Louise
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: RobMoshein on April 01, 2004, 10:09:40 AM
A bit of historical fact will help put this claim into perspective.

NO ONE came to the Alexander Palace without first being stopped by the Palace police at the gate, and noted into the records. NO ONE saw the Emperor or Empress without knowledge and permission of Freedericks, period. Dont forget that Baron Freedericks despised Rasputin. Palace records show (as I recall without checking the exact number) that Rasputin came to the Palace seven times only, and the longest audience was 20 minutes. Also, he never came to the Palace when Nicholas was not there (the Empress never received a male when Nicholas was not in the Palace).

Outside of the Palace, Alexandra was watched 24/7 by Spridovitch's secret police guard, wherever she went.  The police knew every single person who came into contact with her, and she would NEVER have had the opportunity to be alone with Rasputin ever. Alexandra loathed this surveillance and complained often about it, but Nicholas ordered that it be maintained despite her protests.

This goes for the alleged "secret lover" in the other thread. Just not possible.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: 3710 on April 04, 2004, 09:26:27 AM
You made me worry that I do not understand plain Russian any more :)
Re-read ''Rasputin'' By Radzinsky over weekend, half way through at the moment -  still no sign of an affair between A and R! Quite the opposite, in fact : ''Alexandra's great love (for N!) was sacred to R''. Could it be that editors has spiced the English edition up?
R's sourses are as good as any other's, so why to deny him a  right to write the way he sees things? There can't be any monopoly on historical truth.
And he probably does not really need to try hard to sell his books. Not only he has a multimillion audience in Russia, I can't think of any other Russian author who would get 3 books published in the West over the period of 10 years, one after another.

I would also interpret his mentioning of  Anna being ''in love'' with A not in sexual contect, but rather phycological. Being hurt by her marriage Anna could  be ''off men''  emotionally  at least and found female company more comfortable.
There is an excellent 4 volume collection of memories on Rasputin. Great fun to read. They are all contemporaries, they have been there, met the man, but have totally opposite views - what chances we have to find the truth about him?
This is not right that Alexandra never ever met any males without Nicolas around. This was not a harem: ladies in waiting, daughters were always by hand. And she did visit  Anna's house to see Rasputin more then once.
In a way Nicolas was right, insisting that friendship with Rasputin was their private affair. In only A. could keep R. away from politics! Imagine the strength of public opinion if people, who were not born murderes, came to the conclusion this was the only way. (It was funny to read Xenia Sfiris recent interview, where she wondered, how someone as kind as Felix could possibly murder anyone: ''No one could belive it!'') Radzinsky suggests that he was protecting Dmitrii taking the blame on himself, interestingly....
There is a little film with Vera Coralli acting and dancing on ''History of Russian ballet'' video, have you seen her, Bob?
Galina
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on April 04, 2004, 09:39:14 AM
I would love to see that video Galina... do you know where to get it?
Bob
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Arleen on April 04, 2004, 10:20:00 AM
Thank you 3710!!  I sort of felt like I was the only one here who LIKES Radzinsky!!  I have his three books and they have never given me offence, so he writes like a playwright instead of a dry-dead- serious historian (ofwhich I have many books and also enjoy) I actually find his writing charming and enjoy the totally different attitude and even words that he uses.  I just thought that it was the RUSSIANness of the man coming thru......
I never took it that he said A & R had an affair, his words didn't mean that to me....I like the lovely sweet compassion he has for N!
His writing is DIFFERENT....viva la difference!!!!
..Arleen
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: 3710 on April 04, 2004, 11:04:49 AM
Thanks for your support, Arleen :).
Galina(3710)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: _Rodger_ on April 04, 2004, 02:19:16 PM
I remember when that book first came out.  It was released to great fanfare and the headlines literally said 'Alexandra had an affair with Rasputin!'  Then Radzinsky put the kabosh to an extent on that sales line, and the furor died down.

But the seed was planted in the minds of those who merely read the bylines and assumed the worst.  The press has done great disservice to the Empress, but what's new?

As far as Rasputin is concerned, and maybe Penny will appreciate this, the Okhrana (which Nicholas didn't really have much control over) was no more reliable regarding it's motives than the Bolsheviks were.  

The Okhrana had motive to discredit Rasputin at every possible point, and the historical smear campaign against this man has continued more or less unabated to this day.

Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on April 04, 2004, 02:54:02 PM
Rodger is quite correct on the point about the Okhrana surveillance of Rasputin. While it DID confirm Rasputin was drinking and carrying on with prostitutes, the administration also took reports of unconfirmed rumors of even more scandalous gossip and reported them as well as fact without having them investigated.

Stolypin himself presented a report to the Emperor which Nicholas had investigated for accuracy, and it turned out to be mostly made up.  This happened three times to Nicholas, and after Stolypin's report, Nicholas and Alexandra refused to hear anything else about Rasputin, because every time a report was brought to them, it was a false report to smear his reputation.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Arleen on April 04, 2004, 04:04:41 PM
OK I am going to just jump right on in and ask the question that is probably on everyones mind....zap me out Rob if this offends!
Someone tell us all the REAL facts about Rasputin's penis...about where it ended up!  In his daughters 2nd book she tells that wierd account of it being cut off and ending up in that secret society of little old Russian Ladies in Paris, where the author claims to have seen it in a box lined in velvet.  
In the only parts of the autopsy I've read about NOTHING is mentioned and I took that to mean it was still intact.
Will someone tell us to real facts?
..Arleen  
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Louise on April 04, 2004, 05:44:39 PM
Well it wasn't on my mind, but now that you ask... :D

Once again, I am astounded by the myths and legends that surround the Tsars family and Rasputin. So many beliefs being thrown by the wayside. It's hard to take in so much of the information that I have learned since I found this board.

You mean to tell me that the hard held belief that the "true" facts given to the Tsar from Stolypin was mostly false information to discredit Rasputin?

Forum Ad, would it be possible for you to tell me where you got this information so I can read it, devour it and ponder it.

This is the beauty of being involved in the Romanov Dynasty. It's a never ending tale.

Louise





Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on April 04, 2004, 06:39:15 PM
Spiridovitch, in his book about his time as chief of personal secret security to the Imperial Family is the source.  He also wrote a comprehensive bio of Rasputin.  He himself read the reports and read the follow up investigations.  I have no reason to question his veracity on this point.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 04, 2004, 10:42:27 PM
Read Radzinsky if you will - he can be entertaining. However, he can also be inaccurate, no matter how good his sources may be. If this does not bother you, fine. However, if you like history to be accurate, you may want to choose another historian. Or, you may want to take whatever he says with a grain of salt.

Many people have been told that he sensationalizes what he write about in order to sell more books, so it's reasonably certain this is true. It's also unfortunate.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: sara on April 05, 2004, 12:13:02 AM
As a really busy undergrad who is unable to track down a lot of resources (from both a lack of time and lack of availability), I found Radzinsky's book helpful. Though most of the quoting I did from the book was from what he had quoted from documents (I'm doing this in good faith that he is citing his sources correctly and not twisting them. If anyone believes I should not do this, please tell me) and from what can be backed up in other sources.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Greg_King on April 05, 2004, 01:22:15 AM
Quote
OK I am going to just jump right on in and ask the question that is probably on everyones mind....zap me out Rob if this offends!
Someone tell us all the REAL facts about Rasputin's penis...about where it ended up!  In his daughters 2nd book she tells that wierd account of it being cut off and ending up in that secret society of little old Russian Ladies in Paris, where the author claims to have seen it in a box lined in velvet.  
In the only parts of the autopsy I've read about NOTHING is mentioned and I took that to mean it was still intact.
Will someone tell us to real facts?
..Arleen  


In the ten years or so that have elapsed since I wrote my biography of Felix Yusupov, I've learned a lot more about this issue.  More information that suggests inferentially it might have been true, and information that suggests it's just a myth.  I can say, though, that I know Patte Barham-the woman who helped Maria Rasputin with the last book she wrote in which this claim was made-very well, and have discussed this with her.  And she (Patte) was very definitely told this by Maria (I've heard the tapes) and she (Patte) also definitely was shown the object in question in Paris, as she told me.  Whether what she was shown was Rasputin's penis-that's another issue-but Patte had no reason to doubt it-I'm a little more skeptical.  But I don't question Patte's veracity on the issue, nor that this is what Maria claimed to her.  But I have serious doubts about it.

Greg King
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Thierry on April 05, 2004, 06:29:21 AM
Quote
(It was funny to read Xenia Sfiris recent interview, where she wondered, how someone as kind as Felix could possibly murder anyone: ''No one could belive it!'')


Galina,

Where could I read Xenia Sfiris' interview ?

Thanks !
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: 3710 on April 05, 2004, 08:37:24 AM
Thierry
Xenia Sfiris' interview was published in last issue of Pensée russe/Russkaia mysl (Paris).
It was not very interesting, though. She only met Felix briefly when a little girl. On the subject of Rasputin, she was unhappy of what Radzinsky wrote about him (homosexual, hit Yussupov etc)and complained that she has no where to stay when visiting St.P.(Although I read long time ago that she has been, actually, offered a ''flat'' in their Moika mansion. Interesting arrangement...)
Galina
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Thierry on April 05, 2004, 08:46:18 AM
Many thanks, Galina. I will try to get a copy of this article.

I remember that when I was visiting the Russian Cemetery of Sainte-Geneviève-des-Bois (France) a few years ago and was searching for the Yussupoffs grave, the gardener told me that Mrs Sfiris just left a few minutes ago. I was very disappointed...  :(
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Greg_King on April 05, 2004, 08:47:03 AM
Quote
Thierry
Xenia Sfiris' interview was published in last issue of Pensée russe/Russkaia mysl (Paris).
It was not very interesting, though. She only met Felix briefly when a little girl. On the subject of Rasputin, she was unhappy of what Radzinsky wrote about him (homosexual, hit Yussupov etc)and complained that she has no where to stay when visiting St.P.(Although I read long time ago that she has been, actually, offered a ''flat'' in their Moika mansion. Interesting arrangement...)
Galina


Funny, Galina, that she still maintains this line.  I spoke with her several times when I was writing my book on Felix, and discussed the various issues with her, but she continually declared, "My grandfather was a sweet, generous, loving man, not homosexual" (as if the two were exclusive of each other) and she was appalled that anyone suggest he used drugs (even though he himself wrote about it!).  I understand her feelings for a man she only knew as a very elderly, kindly grandfather, but was (and I suppose still am) somewhat perplexed at her attitude and inability to reconcile that which he himself admitted and wrote of.

I find it extremely funny that she complains she has no place to say in Petersburg-unless her mother somehow frittered away the millions of dollars the Yusupovs won in their case against MGM-she could easily purchase any number of places-why not the family dacha at Tsarskoye Selo?  But then I've found a lot of emigres tend to be quite funny about money-claiming poverty to you while sitting in a room adorned with bits of Faberge and Catherine the Great's china!

Greg King
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 05, 2004, 10:54:59 AM
Hello Greg,
About Xenya´s words, does she really think someone cannot be "sweet, generous and loving" and homosexual at the same time??? I don´t know whether to laught or to cry...It´s quite surprising that someone nowadays, specially the supposed high cultured people, has this thought. Whatever Felix was, he was certainly not  100% heterosexual, and this fact is not insulting at all.
It may seems contradictory to see  russian aristocrats claiming for their property amidst luxuy furnished rooms in Paris but what is this when compared with their former states and palaces full of everything you can imagine? The russian archives are full too with their family albums and documents. Well, all those things were their own property and, for me, so still are.  just imagine some cherished thing, a chair for example, from your grand mother. The only difference is that their family chairs were made by Jacob or Voronikhin, but might have for them another value than the money it would cost, might not?
However, i´m one of those whow enjoy these things in the russian museums...Finally i would prefer these things to be with their former owners than on Lepke´s catalogue being sold by the soviet state...

Antonio.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Reed on April 05, 2004, 12:09:32 PM
Along Antonio's line....does the possibility exist that the Russian government "might" give back some of the stolen estates or family possessions???  I'm sure once they started there may be no stopping.  :-/
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on April 05, 2004, 12:15:04 PM
I moved this over to its own topic, it deserves its own catagory and does not really relate to Rasputin the subject of this thread.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 05, 2004, 10:27:42 PM
Quote
As a really busy undergrad who is unable to track down a lot of resources (from both a lack of time and lack of availability), I found Radzinsky's book helpful. Though most of the quoting I did from the book was from what he had quoted from documents (I'm doing this in good faith that he is citing his sources correctly and not twisting them. If anyone believes I should not do this, please tell me) and from what can be backed up in other sources.


Sara: I believe Radzinsky should be used very sparingly by any undergrad or grad student. Anything you can verify through other sources would be okay, but as I said, he writes for entertainment value.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 06, 2004, 10:46:17 PM
I´ve always wondered where was Gregory buried. Reading the Tsar´s diary for the funeral day he wrote that the grave was in a field to the right of the Photography building in the Alexander Park. The problem here is that Anna Virubova firmly said that he was NOT buried in the park but in the chapel of her private hospital that was then in construction.
Could someone help me please to solve this question???

Antonio.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: _Rodger_ on April 06, 2004, 10:48:32 PM
He was cremated upon orders of the Empress so that his remains wouldn't be desicrated.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 06, 2004, 11:00:03 PM
hello Rodger,
I´ve never read about Alexandra´s ordering that. It´s against everything i´ve read. There are many witnesses of the funeral and even that the Empress put an icon inside the coffin, signed by all the family members if i remember well. The body was searched for and discovered in the first days of the revolution by a group of soldiers an then it´s reported to have being cremated and the ashes scattered in a near wood(i think Pargolovo). Since i know now that a human body cannot be cremated in such circumstances his body should have been left somewhere...

Antonio.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: _Rodger_ on April 07, 2004, 12:00:56 AM
It was in the Victoria Lewis/Peter Kurth Documentary.  

Ask Peter.

I believe he has a pretty good idea of the circumstances and whether it was successful or not.  I know they tried.  If I remember correctly, it was ordered by the Empress but I don't have primary or even secondary sources sitting in front of me right now.  I'm going by memory, sorry.

Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Greg_King on April 07, 2004, 01:15:28 AM
To clarify:

R was interred in the crypt of AV's hospital chapel, then under construction.  His body was exhumed after the Revolution by soldiers, who took it to a remote forest and there burned it.

Vicky's documentary, "Mystery of the Last Tsar" (a splendid work, by the way) simply conveys the above info as far as I know.

Greg King
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 07, 2004, 08:21:38 AM
Hello Greg,
I´ve always assumed that information as true but why then did Nicholas write in his diary about the field to the right of the photography builbing in wednsday 21th of December?
And then, if the body was not cremated to become  ashes, could Grigory´s remains be still in Tsarskoe?
I´ve never seen any photograph of that hospital or the chapel. I supposed the chapel was never finished due to the revolution, however, do you know the location of that hospital and chapel? I imagine it was just behind Anna´s house and therefore nearer to the palace. Do you have any more information???

Antonio.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Greg_King on April 07, 2004, 09:32:54 AM
I'm afraid I don't know where Anna's hospital was being built-her book (which I don't have at hand at the moment) might be more specific though if I recall she merely said "in a corner of the park," which would indicate a location with the Park at Tsarskoye Selo.  Maybe Bob has further information?

Greg King
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on April 07, 2004, 11:05:10 AM
The Photography building was the former Llama House.   As you can see from this map I made Anna's hospital was to the right of the Llama House outside the park.  Because this area was wooded and surrounded by the park it would have seemed to people who didn't know the area that it was inside it.

Nicholas 's description is correct - it is on the right of the Photographic pavillion (Llama House) as you head out Riding Road or Edge Road across the pond.

Bob
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/images/2004parkmap.jpg)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 07, 2004, 01:01:48 PM
Hi Bob,
Thanks again, you´ve just solved what i thought was impossible for me to know! Now i understand my confussion...I assume that nothing remains of Anna´s hospital, however i will look for it and the grave next time i ´m in Tsarskoe. Still i ´cannot help thinking what became of Grigory´s remains...
 Antonio.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on April 07, 2004, 01:27:51 PM
I am thinking - maybe next summer we should do a trip to Tsarskoe and go to all of these places together.  That would be fun.

Bob
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 07, 2004, 02:26:51 PM
WOW, being there with you all!!! Just GREAT!!! I would need however to know it sometime in advence to save the proper amount of money...I was last time in Russia last summer for a month and is always so sadly expensive....

Antonio.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Reed on April 07, 2004, 04:03:46 PM
Name the date.....if possible I would LOVE to go back. ;D
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Silja on April 08, 2004, 02:54:48 PM
I very much agree about what has been said about Radsinsky's writing, but I don't think he sensationalizes to sell more books but because of his inability to discard his playwrighting style and perspective.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: _Rodger_ on April 08, 2004, 09:28:42 PM
Greg,

I agree.  I find 'The Mystery of the Tsar' to not only be a fine production, it's useful too.

The US Army's Parsons and Weedn claim that the huge strands of DNA they along with Gill tested were as a result of 'permafrost' at the Ekaterinburg site.  Freezing without thaw (permafrost) does indeed preserve DNA a bit better than warmer temperatures.

However 'The Mystery of the Tsar' clearly shows the removal of the remains from a very muddy bog, in a dense aspen and coniferous forest.  

Trees do not grow in permafrost.

Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Joanna on April 11, 2004, 03:25:48 PM
There was a pamphlet published last year on the Serafimovsky Infirmary of Anna Vyrubova in the Alexander Park with photographs.  Has anyone seen this?  And am I right that Loman was the architect of the infirmary and the church or was it Danini perhaps?

Joanna
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on April 11, 2004, 05:24:29 PM
Rodger:

Having been there in July, down in some holes in the forest there and at the mine I can tell you it is very, very cold just a few feet down.  I don't know how the trees manage to grow..  It is incredibly beautiful - a carpet of grass with small daisies and mushrooms - nettles.... it's almost all birches as far as I remember it not too close together.

Also, don't forget they found fairly large sections of preserved tissue of Botkin and - it has been speculated - Anastasia...

Bob
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Todd on April 18, 2004, 10:54:56 PM
Sensationalism in the case of Rasputin


I thought some of you might be interested in the following:

Some of the earliest sensationalism concerning Rasputin came from one of his earliest supporters, later to become a bitter enemy, a charismatic monk named Father Iliodor (Sergei Mikhailovich) Trufanov, who was born in 1881 in the village of Bolshaya Marinskaya in the Don region in southern Russia. Have any of you ever heard of him?

Father Iliodor was a graduate of the St. Petersburg Theological Academy and became a priest in the city of Tsaritsyn (later called Stalingrad, and today called Volgograd), where he earned a reputation for his fiery sermons.  

Iliodor and Rasputin became friends and were often seen in each other’s company. Over the years, Iliodor’s vitriolic zeal became too much for him to handle. Unable to control the vehemence of his tongue, he moved frequently to stay one step ahead of the police.

Things ended sadly for Iliodor. Extremely unbalanced, he eventually renounced his priestly and monastic calling. On November 20, 1912, he slashed his arm with a razor and sent a message, signed in his own blood, to the Holy Synod, stating:  

I renounce your God. I renounce your faith. I renounce your Church. I renounce you as hierarchs....

Former Hiermonk Iliodor (Sergei Trufanov), Holy Devil, Moscow, 1917, p. 175 (My translation, TRB)

Iliodor wrote his book on Rasputin in 1914, entitling it The Holy Devil, an appalling and libelous account alleging amorous ties between Gregory Rasputin and the Empress.

The idea for such a book was supported enthusiastically by author Maxim Gorky (20th century Soviet writer and close friend of Lenin) in a letter to a journalist friend, S.S. Kondurushkin, in March 1912:

It seems to me, - more than that, I am convinced, that a book by Iliodor on Rasputin would be extremely opportune and essential and could be of undoubted benefit to many people. If I were in your place, I would insist that Iliodor write this book. I will see that it makes it abroad.

Literary Inheritance, Gorky and Russian journalism at the beginning of the 20th century, Moscow, 1988, Vol. 95, p. 985 (My translation, TRB)

Iliodor, dressed as a woman, fled to Norway at the beginning of 1916 to avoid being imprisoned on libel charges for his slanderous writings. His flight was assisted by Maxim Gorky, the Soviet writer, who had promised to help get his slanderous book published abroad. Iliodor’s book was finally published in Moscow in 1917 and in New York by Century Company in 1918. Most of what the world knows today about Rasputin comes from Iliodor’s distorted and sensational writings. Most of the same stories are rehashed over and over again in various books.

Trufanov became a Baptist and in his last years worked as a janitor for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company in New York. He died of a heart attack in 1952 at the age of 71, leaving behind a wife and 7 children.

He was really something. I just came across the manuscript of a work by Iliodor called Stalingrad Martha. I’ve never heard of it, so it should be interesting.

Todd
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: J.R on May 04, 2004, 11:35:56 PM
H---I don't want to say hi...I just want to know why
did I knew his name, before that I discover him on a
E---book... well I don't know if you understand, but.. it  
take me so long to know that he was existing before
L----you know..
i was so young and i was thinking that i created that
P---name.. .BUT  He Is TRUE... Does someone can explain that to me....  
thx    
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: J.R on May 04, 2004, 11:56:13 PM
Well I'm sorry,  
Anyway... I know it may sound crazy, but
If you can answer plz
reply (better on that web site)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 11, 2004, 11:18:30 AM
About Rasputin...

I found out something recently (a few days ago) that  explained some of Rasputin's "magical power" over Alexie's hemophilia --  although the good folk here probably knew it all along!  :)
    The doctors were supposedly prescribing Aspirin for Alexie's condition --not knowing that this would in fact make his bleeding much worse! Rasputin, distrusting of such witchcraft as medication, would inevitably throw the tablets away whenever he came to heal the child.  
    The tendence of aspirin to affect blood clotting was not understood until 1971, so I don't think that the doctors were trying to hurt Alexie. Rasputin didn't so much heal the boy - as just keep his blood from getting even thinner!

strange but true
R.

sorry about my poor spelling
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2004, 08:17:50 PM
Where in the world did you find information on the fact that the doctors were giving Alexis aspirn? :o

AGRBear
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 12, 2004, 08:32:39 PM
AGRBear

It was in "Nicholas II: the Interupted Transition" by Hellene Carrere Decausse...

page 147 (middle of the page)

  "....the doctors administered the analgesic that was then in vogue - aspirin, discovered in 1899 - which far from halting the bleeding only aggravated it. Rasputin, a man of nature hostile to all drugs, urged the monarchs not to give aspirin to the child, and on several occations threw the pills that had been prepared onto his bedside table.'  

shocking

R.

Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2004, 08:47:59 PM
Learn something new everyday. ;D

Also, you've mentioned another book I haven't read.

Go over to the book threads and tell us more about it, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 12, 2004, 08:49:43 PM
AGRBear

Its under recomended books
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2004, 09:17:32 PM
I wonder how many of you are old enough to know what it was like to live in time when people all around you believed in people who held powers of healing or who could conjure up evil spells or who could give you the evil eye?

Today, it is easy to scoff at Alexandra and others of her generation who believed in magical powers.  But in those days there were  so many unexplained occurances which no one understood.  And to fill that void of  which became known quite quickly as "mysterious occurances" were answers connected to the world of supersition.

Today,  we can just turn on our computer, go to goggle,  go to some medicine site, type in "aspirn" and in a blink of an eye all the information you want to know and then some pop up on the screen.

In Alexandra's time,  there was no one to explain the effects of "aspirn".  And,  when Rasputin took it away and her son was better than she, being a God fearing woman,  gave credit to God who had sent her Rasputin.  

It wasn't just Alexandra.  In the small distant villages there were events which were just as mysterious.  And,  like in the far away Palace in St. Petersburg, there were words to utter to warn off the evil spirits and to bless the bride and groom and when a child was born or someone died....

A minor event such as a bird pecking on a window meant death had come knocking for someone within the hut.

A black cat cross someone's path meant mad luck.

A broken mirror meant bad luck for seven years.

People truly believed and many ruled their lives because of supersitions.

Since I'm older and remember "knocking on wood for good luck",  I can understand the reason Alexandra could believe in Rasputin's healing powers just because of some aspirn.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Belochka on July 20, 2004, 12:01:25 AM
Rasputin actually did Alexei a huge medical favor, which was described in d'Encausse's book at p 147.

The new medication - Aspirin was given by Alexei's doctors in good faith, to relieve joint pain due to inflammation caused by his repeated bleeding episodes. Unwittingly the doctors were severely compromising Alexei's health status, by extending the period of internal bleeding.

Today we are advised that Aspirin should not be administered generally to children because of the associated risk of Reye's Syndrome - a rare condition which causes the brain to swell and also can disturb liver function.

Both these contraindications have horrendous ramifications, yet Rasputin's repeated actions helped relieve Alexei's misery and guard against further potential medical problems. The absence of this medication in his body was no doubt the reason for his fairly rapid relief and improvement.

The simple act of deprivation of the medication was not appreciated at the time, but the resulting relief in Alexei's condition was clearly observable. IMHO this observation provided a desperate connection for Alexandra as a mother to believe in Rasputin's alleged divine powers.

Today our modern understanding of the pharmacologic effects of Asprin, provide a clearer explanation as to what was really happening.  

Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2004, 08:31:10 AM
Belochka
Thanks for the confirmation of my previous post...

Its rather too bad that Aliksandra was unable to see a connection between these to events ( no aspirin - Alexie gets better)... She might not have been so fixated with Rasputin. Thus his seemy side might not have put her under such general contempt.

R.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Belochka on July 20, 2004, 10:52:31 PM
Quote
Its rather too bad that Aliksandra was unable to see a connection between these to events ( no aspirin - Alexie gets better)... She might not have been so fixated with Rasputin.
R.


Yes indeed how different everything would have been had Alexandra understood that connection!  :-/
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Natalie on July 29, 2004, 09:52:47 PM
I was trying to find information on where Rasputin was barried, and found some info that he was cremated.  If he was cremated then why is his body part ( more specifically his penis) is preserved and on display at a Russian museum?  Did they just cut off some body parts and burned the rest? What are the actual facts?  ???
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Belochka on July 30, 2004, 12:10:22 AM
Although the remains of Rasputin were exhumed and cremated for political reasons, such a practice is contrary to the Orthodox religion.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 30, 2004, 05:37:09 PM
OHHH HOOOO! ;D

    The old Rasputin phalus myth once again rears its ummm... head? (lol)
   Anyway thats just a jolly unban legend and the last 'item" claiming to be this venerated object turned out to be a pickled sea cucumber!

R.

Belochka is right about the Orthodox Church and cremation.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Candice on July 30, 2004, 06:42:48 PM
So, what did they do with his body part? Did they cremate it along with the rest of him? If they didn't cremate his body where is it? Very curious, does anyone know what the answer is?

I always thought they buried it.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: nbobrov on July 30, 2004, 09:36:09 PM
I was searching for info on Rasputin online and I found this website pertaining to the above subject:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/04/28/rasputin.shtml
:o
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 30, 2004, 09:37:00 PM
Yes they burned it...


Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Louise on July 30, 2004, 10:20:04 PM
For more information on this particular subject go to New links and read "So that is where it is."

Louise
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Lisa on August 02, 2004, 03:33:00 AM
What do you think about that (it's already quite old)

http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/Orthodox%20Church%20Takes.htm


some pic about this subject

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine1bis.jpg)

Miracles about this icons (in Russian):
http://svpokrov.narod.ru/rasputin/rasputin.htm
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Anubis on September 24, 2004, 04:37:04 PM
BTW- The truth (IMHO) about Rasputin death and all is that Yusupov severed Rasputin's penis while he was still in the room where he was poisoned and shot and before he was thrown into the river. Someone among the conspirators then did as they wished with it after returning from the Volga. Occording to one source (I don't remember the name) A certain female wealthy aristocrat had possesion of it (though it has shriveled and turned the color of an over-ripe banana.) :-X Where it went after that I don't know but I'm sure the large penis being shown at the Russian museum is falsified because the testicles are in tact. Yusupov would not have done that of course :o
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Anubis on September 24, 2004, 05:04:34 PM
Does anyone know where I can get ahold of a copy or internet site of Stalingrad Martha by Iliodor? Todd? Please reply  ;D
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on September 24, 2004, 05:10:01 PM
Anubis

  I hope that you will enjoy reading the other posts here regarding Rasputin and his "little friend..."
 I am unfamiliar with the texts that you are looking for.

Good luck

R.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Karentje on September 26, 2004, 07:08:24 AM
Well who would have thought aspirins could be such troublemakers! :o

I'd never read this before, anywhere, how great of you to share this information!!
A part of the mystery of rasputin's healing powers is finally revealed, it seems. I knew there had to be some rational explanation, somehow I never quite believed that it was divine intervention  :P

Greetings

Karentje
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on September 26, 2004, 08:34:45 AM
Yes!
  As Aspirin retards clotting this would be an especially difficult situation for a hemophiliac. Not being a hemophiliac I wonder if a diet rich in brocholli and vegetables with vitamin K could have helped Alexi?
  RE: Rasputin, I do think that his prayers were of comfort to Alix ...in her thoughts she had begun to see him almost as a good luck talisman ...and it can be very difficult to change such psychological habits ones they are set!
  I wonder what Sigmund Freud would have thought of Rasputin or of  Alix?

Sorry for the brief segway.
R.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on September 26, 2004, 09:43:30 AM
A little more info is needed here. First, Rasputin's autopsy said nothing about a "severed member" among the extensive other injuries it catalogued. It is a MYTH, LEGEND, but not true. Period.
Rasputin's body was exhumed from the unfinished church which was being built over his coffin by Alexandra and Vyroubova, but interrupted by the Revolution, and he was cremated. period.

No seque Rskkiya...you were on point.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on September 26, 2004, 11:41:36 AM
Well firstly my name is Richard - surname is Cullen.  the evidence is overwhelming and it does re write history.  All you will see on timewatch is a flavour of what i and others found.

What surprises me is that no scientific logic has been applied to the murder before. having had access to GARF and the Political History archivesI am stunned taht no one has picked this up before.  even a re-examination of the autopsy carried out ten years ago buy Russia's top pathologist has received no publicity.

Hope you enjoy Friday

Richard
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on October 31, 2004, 08:05:49 PM
Regarding the 'icons', (of course they aren't icons), when I look at an icon, or am praying they always make you feel calm. Those pictures just give me the creeps, especially the one of him holding the tsesarevich-martyr. I would not want to condemn Rasputin, God will judge him, but I have sometimes wondered if the Tsaritsa-martyr thought he was a fool-for-Christ.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: The_Ferret on November 15, 2004, 06:46:45 AM
I heard several different stories about Rasputin. He was known to be an illiterate peasant from Siberia. Though he was described as a monk and a mystic he was also married and had a daughter. It was certainly true that he was by no means celibate or astetic.

One rather strange story, which I cannot confirm but heard from several Russian friends was that was said about him was that he was from a community of Gnostics in Siberia. Siberia had long been a place where obscure religious communities existed, from the ultra Orthodox Old Believers to the hedonistic Doukhobors. Being a Gnostic, Rasputin believed that one cannot be cured of sin unless one knows sin. For that reason he advocated drinking, fornication and drug use.

As far as his healing powers, they were well attested by many sources. He was also said to have been gifted with the gift of prophocy.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Olga on November 15, 2004, 07:20:19 PM
Quote
he was also married and had a daughter.


Rasputin had two daughters, Maria Grigorievna and Varvara Grigorievna.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 03:45:26 PM
Quote
Being a Gnostic, Rasputin believed that one cannot be cured of sin unless one knows sin. For that reason he advocated drinking, fornication and drug use.


This is talked about at length in Radzinsky's Rasputin File.  Basically it talks about how Rasputin studied with the Khlysty, and absorbed their philosophy.  And yes, he felt that he could only"take a woman's sin" into himself by having sex with her.  

Denise
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on November 16, 2004, 03:55:42 PM
This is one of Radzinsky's major mistakes. There is no evidence whatsoever that Rasputing EVER "studied" with they Khlysty, much less having "absorbed" their teachings.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 04:13:18 PM
Thanks FA!!  I am reading that book now, and I feel like I am reading a tabloid.  Is there a thread on the Forum anywhere about what is fact and what is fiction in Radzinsky?  I like the book's readability, but dislike the second guessing I have to do while reading it.  

And is there an "objective" bio of Rasputin?  There are a few out there, but want to stick to one rooted in fact.  

Thanks!!
Denise
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Janet_W. on November 16, 2004, 04:24:02 PM
Denise, check out Greg King's dual bio of Felix and Rasputin. Other books re: Rasputin exist, but in my opinion this is the best one.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Janet_W. on November 16, 2004, 04:28:16 PM
Denise, a quick addendum: The book is focused on Felix, but includes a great deal of excellent information about Rasputin. Its title, if I recall correctly, is Felix Yussopov: The Man Who Killed Rasputin.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 04:32:15 PM
Janet, is that Greg King's book?  I just ordered that one from Amazon--should be here soon.  :)

Denise
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Janet_W. on November 16, 2004, 04:33:00 PM
Okay, one more addendum: I checked Amazon.com, and it's The Murder of Rasputin: the Truth About Prince Felix Youssoupov and the Mad Monk Who Helped Bring Down the Romanovs.

(Though of course we all know that "Mad Monk" is used tongue-in-cheek, since Rasputin was not a monk, nor did he pass himself off as one. Right?!  ;) )

And sorry for not doing my homework before making those first two posts!  :P
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on November 16, 2004, 09:19:32 PM
Quote
Thanks FA!!  I am reading that book now, and I feel like I am reading a tabloid.  Is there a thread on the Forum anywhere about what is fact and what is fiction in Radzinsky?  I like the book's readability, but dislike the second guessing I have to do while reading it.  

And is there an "objective" bio of Rasputin?  There are a few out there, but want to stick to one rooted in fact.  

Thanks!!
Denise


Denise !
Try Rasputin: the saint who sinned  :-[ So sorry I cannot remember the authors name-- its Irish -- I think.
Its a well written and not very "tabloidy" read, full of  lots of good information.

(blushing at my forgetfulness)
rskkiya :-[
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 16, 2004, 10:33:08 PM
Brian Moynahan ?
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 17, 2004, 12:23:27 AM
Yes, that's Brian's book.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on November 17, 2004, 09:28:28 AM
I am told Professor Fuhrmann's bio of R is very good

Richard
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Denise on November 17, 2004, 02:14:10 PM
Thanks for the book recommendations, Richard & rskkiya.  I'll look for them both....

Denise
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: The_Ferret on November 17, 2004, 10:12:18 PM
Quote
What do you think about that (it's already quite old)

http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/Orthodox%20Church%20Takes.htm


some pic about this subject

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine1bis.jpg)

Miracles about this icons (in Russian):
http://svpokrov.narod.ru/rasputin/rasputin.htm

I did not mention this before but those pictures are just mesmerizing. The two showing the Tsarovich with Rasputin are just breathtaking.

I find it truely amazing how an artist can create beauty out something like that.

In a sense I really feel sad for the Alexei. He was really an innocent victim of a lot of the evil surrounding his life.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Olga on November 17, 2004, 10:21:36 PM
I don't think Rasputin was evil.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on December 02, 2004, 06:25:02 PM
I find those ikons of Rasputin very disturbing.  Just my comment.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on December 02, 2004, 07:41:47 PM
Bob
I agree!  :P
I don't  think that Rasputin was evil, but these icons are unappealing, "kitzchy " and corny. They rather remind me of velvet paintings of Elvis!

rskkiya
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Merrique on December 02, 2004, 08:06:35 PM
I have to agree with Bob and Rskkiya,not only are those ikons rather disturbing,they look corny as well.Creepy and haunting come to mind also.Almost like Rasputin is beckoning from them to join in something that isn't right.
To me Alexei just doesn't look comfortable sitting next to him.
Maybe I'm reading too much into them but it's just what I see.I just don't like the look of those ikons.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Dasha on December 02, 2004, 08:13:33 PM
Merrique, I completely agree with you on the subject of the ikons.  They are just a bit creepy to put it mildly.  Just as an aside, my grandparents bought Radzinskii's book on Rasputin, and I refuse to even look at it, because the picture of that man on the front cover just makes me cringe.  

Dasha
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 03, 2004, 03:07:33 AM
They might be eerie, but they look nothing like Rasputin in my view.

Richard
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on December 03, 2004, 06:19:07 PM
Mr. Cullen
You are correct. Although icons are not meant to look like particular people, as I understand it, they are meant to express their spiritual nature.
These images seem more like posters than stylized iconic expressions - are they really 'Icons?"


rskkiya
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on December 05, 2004, 02:43:19 PM
rsskiya asks are they icons. I have to say no they aren't. Rasputin has not been glorified a saint. As I have said before on this topic, those pictures give me the creeps, something a real icon never does. While it is true one can paint icons of righteous/holy people who have not yet been glorified as saints, it is beyond me as to why anyone would think Rasputin fits into that category. I understand that the same crowd responsible for the Rasputin icons also want to see Ivan the Terrible glorified too.... ::)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: AGRBear on January 05, 2005, 10:46:40 AM
There is an entire grouping of Rasputin threads on the following URL:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=rasputin

AGRBear

Note: Glad to see this thread is, now, under Rasputin.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 20, 2005, 09:16:25 PM
Quote
 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/raspoutine1bis.jpg)

 
 Who makes these "icons"? I'm sorry, they look so CHEESY!  :P
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on January 21, 2005, 08:43:11 AM
The same people who make cheap (but not necessarily inexpensive) crap as souvenirs and the kitschy stuff sold in catholic and other religions' religious art ??? shops. It's just pop-art rubbish.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Olga on January 21, 2005, 08:46:13 AM
Quote
I'm sorry, they look so CHEESY!  :P


I think that's been the general consensus.  ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on January 21, 2005, 04:13:18 PM
Quote
It's just pop-art rubbish


Not to mention heretical >:(
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 24, 2005, 01:08:16 AM
Quote

Not to mention heretical >:(


Speaking as an iconographer myself, neither of those would actually be considered an Icon even if Rasputin were to one day be canonized.  For one thing they both look as though the faces were painted directly from a photo, and while at first glance they look like Icons, the artist didnt paint them using an iconographic method. Ive seen velvet paintings of Elvis that looked more like an Icon.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on January 24, 2005, 02:33:09 PM
True, but there are a lot of icons, esp. from the late 1700s through to even now that are painted in a western style. If they have been blessed by a Priest then they are icons, but I prefer the traditional Byzantine style.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 26, 2005, 03:45:22 AM
Quote
True, but there are a lot of icons, esp. from the late 1700s through to even now that are painted in a western style. If they have been blessed by a Priest then they are icons, but I prefer the traditional Byzantine style.

  No matter what country an Icon is painted in( actually its called writing an icon ), there is only one method used the by the artist to create an Icon.  If an Iconographer ignores 2000 years of tradition, and paints in a western style for whatever reason it will never be more than just a painting, whether or not it is blessed by a priest.  And while Russia, Greece, Serbia, and even Georgia all have a certain look to the icons done in those countries, they're all done(the real ones anyway) using the same practices and techniques. This involves a large amount of prayers, fasting and concentration.  A true Iconographer, after having spent an unspecific amount of time learning all these things(either from a school or an established Iconographer), must then get a blessing from a priest or bishop before he or she begins to paint. After that they  are usually left on they're own unless there is a problem.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on January 26, 2005, 03:50:05 PM
My Spiritual father (now reposed) who was a Hieromonk at Jordanville says it is better to say painting rather than writing an icon, as that reflects the Slavonic better. However if we discount all 'modernist' style icons from being icons, there must be 100s if not 100os of Orthodox Churches around the world that have nary a true icon in them.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Melanie on January 26, 2005, 06:59:02 PM
I have a question and I wasn't sure if this was the place to post it or not....but you all seem to know a lot about Rasputin.  I am reading Lost Splendor now and twice (on pages 203 & 218) Prince Felix says that Rasputin ordered the Czar to be bascally drugged.  I am reading this book with a grain of salt, but I was wondering what his basis on this was....fact or gossip.  So I am wondering if this is true...was the Czar being drugged daily on Rasputin's orders or is this just Felix's imagination?  Sorry if this is a stupid question....I'm a novice to all this and figure it's best to just ask rather than assume.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on January 26, 2005, 07:11:48 PM
I would say imagination. Prince Yusupov seemed to have a rather good one! Take the info with a rather large and cumbersome piece of salt! ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 27, 2005, 09:24:59 AM
Quote
The first time I've even heard that name, it sounded like an evil, disgusting person...


It was actually a pretty common name in Russia. IMO, Rasputin was not any more or less evil or disgusting than any other Russian peasant at the time... He just happened to come into the spotlight of history while none of the others did....
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 27, 2005, 12:45:42 PM

"My Spiritual father (now reposed) who was a Hieromonk at Jordanville says it is better to say painting rather than writing an icon, as that reflects the Slavonic better."

I argee. however I spent some time at the monastery of St Anthony in arizona a few years ago and I got the impression that the main Greek Orthodox church   (greek archdiocese?) calls it writting an Icon. I said it both ways as to not confuse anyone.  I have heard   ArchBishop Chrysostomos(of St Gregory of Palamas Monstry, Etna Ca) say it should be refered to as painting as well though, so I wonder if this might have something to do with the calender differences?

"However if we discount all 'modernist' style icons from being icons, there must be 100s if not 100os of Orthodox Churches around the world that have nary a true icon in them."

Im not saying this to offend anyone in anyway, but as far as many churches not having true Icons inside, this is sadly the case. Just to give an example, after my Father graduated seminary, the first church he served Liturgy at had masonic symbols in the icons, along with a full depiction of God in Heaven.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 27, 2005, 12:52:17 PM
Quote

It was actually a pretty common name in Russia. IMO, Rasputin was not any more or less evil or disgusting than any other Russian peasant at the time... He just happened to come into the spotlight of history while none of the others did....


Although we know him as Rasputin, I read somewhere that Maria Rasputin has said that this was actually what the type of village he was born in was called. The Tzar and Tzarina both called him Grigory, so this is probably the case.  Either way the word Rasputin can be interpreted several different ways.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 27, 2005, 01:08:02 PM
Quote

 Although we know him as Rasputin, I read somewhere that Maria Rasputin has said that this was actually what the type of village he was born in was called.
Rasputin was from a village called Pokrovskoe. Actually his real name, from what I understand was "Novikh", and the name Rasputin may have come from two different things: one meaning "dissolute" and another meaning a "crossroad" or something to that effect. So supposedly the name was either adopted by him or given to him by others, depending on whose version you want to accept.  I think they used to be able to adopt any name, it was all quite flexible... But I know that this last name was not uncommon in that region of Russia...
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on January 27, 2005, 01:21:21 PM
Helen,
I don't know where you got that information. According to Spirdovitch's bio the family name was Rasputin, and he was born with that name, as was his brother.
Where did you find that about him not being born Grigory Efimovich Rasputin? There is no mention in Spiridovitch's bio of any other family name.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: bluetoria on January 27, 2005, 01:32:20 PM
Harold Shukman writes:
"Said to have been nicknamed Rasputin because the Russian word rasputnik suited his reputation as a libertine, in fact his name was that of his forebears, who took their name from the word 'rasputie', which means a fork in the highway."
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Janet_W. on January 27, 2005, 01:58:44 PM
Either way, it works!  ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on January 27, 2005, 02:20:42 PM
Quote
the first church he served Liturgy at had masonic symbols in the icons, along with a full depiction of God in Heaven.


I don't think I have ever seen ones with masonic symbols, but unfortunately there does seem to be a number of 'icons' both Russian and Greek that I have seen depicting God the Father. I am not sure why they have been made.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 27, 2005, 06:57:57 PM
Quote
Helen,
I don't know where you got that information. According to Spirdovitch's bio the family name was Rasputin, and he was born with that name, as was his brother.
Where did you find that about him not being born Grigory Efimovich Rasputin? There is no mention in Spiridovitch's bio of any other family name.


I will try to remember where I read it, but I definitely did. I also read an account that his name really was Rasputin, and that Novikh was his "nickname" not Rasputin. I don't really know which is the true account. Sometimes he was called "Rasputin-Novikh" though. I just posted that in response to another post that said that "Rasputin" was after his village which definitely is not the case. Let me see if I can find the book where I read this...

H
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: bluetoria on January 27, 2005, 07:00:17 PM
Was it in the Eduard Radzinsky book? I have vague recollections of it, too, but can't find it anywhere :-/
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 27, 2005, 07:05:23 PM
Quote
Helen,
I don't know where you got that information. According to Spirdovitch's bio the family name was Rasputin, and he was born with that name, as was his brother.
Where did you find that about him not being born Grigory Efimovich Rasputin? There is no mention in Spiridovitch's bio of any other family name.


Ok, here is one of the places I read this, but I know I read this in other books too.

"Alexandra, the Last Tsarina" by Carolly Erickson. P. 171.

"...his name was Grigoriy Efimovich Novy [a variation of "Novikh", the spelling that I saw elsewhere], and that he came from the village Pokrovsky in Tobolsk Province in Siberia... and that he had acquired, early in life, the nickname 'Rasputin", which means "the Debauched One" or "the Vagabound".  

As I mentioned, this is not the only book I saw this info in, I read it in several places....
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 27, 2005, 07:06:29 PM
Quote
Was it in the Eduard Radzinsky book?
Yes, it's possible it was there too... It was in quite a few books...
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 28, 2005, 01:55:33 AM
Quote

I will try to remember where I read it, but I definitely did. I also read an account that his name really was Rasputin, and that Novikh was his "nickname" not Rasputin. I don't really know which is the true account. Sometimes he was called "Rasputin-Novikh" though. I just posted that in response to another post that said that "Rasputin" was after his village which definitely is not the case. Let me see if I can find the book where I read this...



Judging from the books Ive read on Rasputin, the word novikh(or novy) means "new" or "newcomer".  I read in one book that Alexei was the first to refer to him as this because of the many healers who had been brought to the palace before Grigory to attempt to treat his disease. Another book said both Nicholas and Alexandra  thought the name Rasputin was a terrible misrepresentation of his character, and talked him into changing it to Novy-Rasputin.
Ive also read many interpretations of the meaning of the name Rasputin. One book I read said that It was common fo many people of that region to not have last names, the name rasputin was given to Grigory's father because he wasnt born in Pokrovskoe. This was of course assuming the name means "crossroads".  Its also said to mean "spring" or "autumn period". However,  I think the general consensus is that it means "good for nothing person " or "debached one", and he was probably born with the name.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 28, 2005, 02:54:12 AM
Quote

I don't think I have ever seen ones with masonic symbols, but unfortunately there does seem to be a number of 'icons' both Russian and Greek that I have seen depicting God the Father. I am not sure why they have been made.


I know of a number of Icons that were painted in Russia post revolution that contain these markings, but as for how long this has been going on, I havent a clue. I've even seen masonic symbols  on the backs of Priests vestments over there, usually the "all seeing eye".Also, Im not sure why, but all the Icons I've seen depicting God in a human state, were usually done 50 or so years ago.
Anyone else out there know what were talking about?
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 28, 2005, 07:57:17 AM
Quote

Judging from the books Ive read on Rasputin, the word novikh(or novy) means "new" or "newcomer".  I read in one book that Alexei was the first to refer to him as this because of the many healers who had been brought to the palace before Grigory to attempt to treat his disease. Another book said both Nicholas and Alexandra  thought the name Rasputin was a terrible misrepresentation of his character, and talked him into changing it to Novy-Rasputin.
Ive also read many interpretations of the meaning of the name Rasputin. One book I read said that It was common fo many people of that region to not have last names, the name rasputin was given to Grigory's father because he wasnt born in Pokrovskoe. This was of course assuming the name means "crossroads".  Its also said to mean "spring" or "autumn period". However,  I think the general consensus is that it means "good for nothing person " or "debached one", and he was probably born with the name.


Yes, I read all of the above interpretations too at one time or another. One thing is for sure: everyone seems very confused about his name!  ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on January 28, 2005, 10:45:27 AM
There need not be any confusion. Spridovitch had all the Okhrana investigation materials into Rasputin and his background. This is FIRST HAND source material. Remember all the government and church birth records and marriage records were all intact at that point.
From "Raspoutine"
"The family name of Rasputin is quite widespread in Occidental Siberia and among those bearing that name there are many who are unrelated by parental ties."

"In the village (of Pokrovskoe) lived Grigori's parents: his father, the peasant Efim Andreievich Rasputin and his mother Anna Egorovna.  His father tilled the soil and was also experienced as a carriage driver. His mother concerned herself with tending the house. For Siberia, they were not poor peasants, but neither were they rich."  Spiridovitch goes on to describe the house the family owned in great detail, so the must also have been property ownership and tax records.  IF there was another family name, surely Spiridovitch would have known of it.

I can state with much certainty that Carrolly Erikson was incorrect in her statement.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 28, 2005, 11:00:50 AM
Quote
 
I can state with much certainty that Carrolly Erikson was incorrect in her statement.

I have absolutely no problem with this. I was just repeating what I read and letting you know my source  :)


Quote
 
"The family name of Rasputin is quite widespread in Occidental Siberia...
  Exactly what I said above...  :)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on January 28, 2005, 11:03:26 AM
Quote
Helen,
I don't know where you got that information. According to Spirdovitch's bio the family name was Rasputin, and he was born with that name, as was his brother.
Where did you find that about him not being born Grigory Efimovich Rasputin? There is no mention in Spiridovitch's bio of any other family name.

I have read two different versions of the story that completely contradict each other. If I'm not mistaken, it was Radzinsky who said his real name was Rasputin, later changed to Noviy (not Novykh) because Alexandra didn't want the holy man to have such a terrible last name, which as mentioned above comes from the same root as the word debauchery in Russian. The other version, whose source I don't remember, said that his real name was Noviy. Rasputin was a nickname given to him by the people of the vilolage which just stuck.
I tend to agree with Radzinsky's explanation, unless someone comes up with good evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 28, 2005, 11:08:54 AM
Either way is fine with me. But one thing for sure: the name did not come from the name of his village.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 28, 2005, 12:21:13 PM
Quote
Either way is fine with me. But one thing for sure: the name did not come from the name of his village.


I didnt mean that the name of his village was called Rasputin, I meant the type of village he was from was commonly refered to as that. Like I said though, that was just one of the many explanations Ive read.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 28, 2005, 02:21:48 PM
Quote

I didnt mean that the name type of village he was from was commonly refered to as that...  


brendan, what do you mean by the "type of a village"?  ???
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on January 28, 2005, 09:13:54 PM
    I have read all sorts of connections to the derevation of Rasputin's name from "the place where the paths meet" to the "Disolute" ...
   And at this point I wonder if we can ever be sure... Perhaps it originally was a sarcastic remark --"Those hard working teetotalers - they never get into trouble...yeah they're the "Rasputins" all right!"

rskkiya
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Olga on January 29, 2005, 04:59:49 AM
Gould, are you referring to symbols of Freemasonry?

I'd be more inclined to trust Spiridovich's word than Radzinsky's.
Title: th saying the same thing.Re: Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on January 29, 2005, 07:50:44 AM
Quote
I'd be more inclined to trust Spiridovich's word than Radzinsky's.
???
In this case it doesn't matter whom you trust more, because they are both saying the same thing. ;D
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on January 29, 2005, 01:27:17 PM
Quote

brendan, what do you mean by the "type of a village"?  ???


I lied.
I thought I remembered hearing that it refered to what would be the Russian equivilant to an un-incorporated town in America. But in M. Rasputins book she says it was a term given to the people in her village that meant, "people living at the parting of the roads" (from Tiouman to Tobolsk.).
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 29, 2005, 01:38:30 PM
Quote
... a term given to the people in her village that meant, "people living at the parting of the roads"


Would that be kind of like "crossroads"?  ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Georgiy on January 31, 2005, 03:51:18 PM
I've only seen the 'all-seeing eye' at one Church - the Greek one in Wellington. I have no idea if that is common in Greek Churches or not, but I've never seen it in Russian ones.

There does seem to be a tradition of painting the Trinity (not as the angels visiting Abraham symbolically representing the Triune God, but as Father Son and Holy Spirit in the form of a dove) from a century or two ago. I don't like it, and it seems wrong to be portraying God the Father, as no one has seen Him. I am sure Brendan can give a better and clearer explaination as to why we can not portray the Father in iconography.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on February 02, 2005, 01:10:03 AM
Quote
I've only seen the 'all-seeing eye' at one Church - the Greek one in Wellington. I have no idea if that is common in Greek Churches or not, but I've never seen it in Russian ones..


"The doctrines of Freemasonry are contrary and opposed to the doctrines of Christianity..."
From The Rudder, Orthodox Christian Education Society, Chicago, p. 285-86]  

"The removal of the name of Jesus and references to Him in Bible verses used in the ritual are "slight but necessary modifications." (Albert Mackey, "Masonic Ritualist." p. 272)


 I brought up free-masons/Icons Just to give an example of how many Icons you see nowadays may not be the real thing. Im not criticising anyones artistic abuility, just stating a fact.

Quote
There does seem to be a tradition of painting the Trinity (not as the angels visiting Abraham symbolically representing the Triune God, but as Father Son and Holy Spirit in the form of a dove) from a century or two ago. I don't like it, and it seems wrong to be portraying God the Father, as no one has seen Him. I am sure Brendan can give a better and clearer explaination as to why we can not portray the Father in iconography.


Traditional Orthodox iconographic rules state that God the Father is NOT to be represented in any way. Therefore, the representation of the Father as the "Ancient of Days" is not permitted, even though some iconographers do take their liberties.
Although the depiction of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove is acceptable in Orthodox iconography in general, the Russian "Stoglav" Council or "or the 100 Chapters" actually forbade the depiction of the Third Person of the Trinity in this way.
The scriptural references to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament descending upon Christ at His Baptism (the Theophany) state that His descent was similar to that of a dove descending - rather than an emphatic statement that the Spirit appeared as a dove itself.
Only the icon of the Old Testament Trinity, "Abraham's Hospitality" portrays all Three Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity as Angels - as scripture says They appeared to our Forefather under the Oaks of Mamre .
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 08:10:08 AM
Quote
Helen,
I don't know where you got that information. According to Spirdovitch's bio the family name was Rasputin, and he was born with that name, as was his brother.
Where did you find that about him not being born Grigory Efimovich Rasputin? There is no mention in Spiridovitch's bio of any other family name.


I am bringing this up again because of something I heard this morning. I was listening to a Russian history audio course, given by Dr Mark Steinberg, a Russian History Professor at the University of Illinois (he is also the author of THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS). When he was talking about Rasputin, he said exactly what I posted before, that "his real name was 'Novikh' and 'Rasputin' was a nickname given to him because it means 'debauched'". Now, just because Steinberg said this doesn't automatically make it true of course, but my point is, even a serious historian accepted this as fact - enough to use in his lecture, so perhaps it is possible this was the case? As I mentioned before, I came across this information in several different places, not just in Erickson's book....
Title: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 08:14:36 AM
I have come across several sources (some pretty reliable historians) that claim that Rasputin's real name was Grigory Novikh and that "Rasputin" was not his real last name but a nickname given to him because of it means "debauched". Some other sources give contradictory information. Does anyone know for sure?  Thanks.

Helen
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Forum Admin on February 08, 2005, 09:42:58 AM
Helen, am sure you recall that we discussed this on another thread.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=rasputin;action=display;num=1104946353;start=104#104

I posted:
There need not be any confusion. Spridovitch had all the Okhrana investigation materials into Rasputin and his background. This is FIRST HAND source material. Remember all the government and church birth records and marriage records were all intact at that point.
From "Raspoutine"  
"The family name of Rasputin is quite widespread in Occidental Siberia and among those bearing that name there are many who are unrelated by parental ties."
 
"In the village (of Pokrovskoe) lived Grigori's parents: his father, the peasant Efim Andreievich Rasputin and his mother Anna Egorovna.  His father tilled the soil and was also experienced as a carriage driver. His mother concerned herself with tending the house. For Siberia, they were not poor peasants, but neither were they rich."  Spiridovitch goes on to describe the house the family owned in great detail, so the must also have been property ownership and tax records.  IF there was another family name, surely Spiridovitch would have known of it.
 
I can state with much certainty that Carrolly Erikson was incorrect in her statement.
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Forum Admin on February 08, 2005, 09:47:26 AM
Helen,
I just saw your other posting. Check the bibliography of those books. VERY few modern "scholars" have actually read Spiridovitch, as it is a VERY rare book and never printed in English. I think these people believe what they are saying to be true, but have not done enough "due diligence" as it were. Frankly, I think the Spiridovitch, who was highly interested in Rasputin even while R. was alive, and who had all the Okhrana background investigation reports to be the most reliable in this regard. I would suggest that those who disagree on this point should provide their sources.
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 09:51:22 AM
I don't think Steinberg used Spiridovich in his bibliography, I have no idea what his source was for this particular thing. I am just wondering where this info about the name came from initially if it isn't true... It must have come from somewhere... Maybe someone knows what the original source was, so this is why I made this post...
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 11:18:22 AM
In Radzinsky "Rasputin File" it talks on page 79 how Alexangra was upset at the shameful name the holy man bore, and had him renamed Rasputin-Novy.  "The tsar then gave the order to call me not by the name Rasputin, but Novy." (Iliodor recorded Rasputin's words on the name change.)
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 03:30:27 PM
I have read this version too, but I more often heard that he started out with the name "Novikh", and that it was later changed to Rasputin because of his "ways". I also heard another version, that it was his father's name that was changed from "Novikh" to "Rasputin" . But according to Spiridovitch, as FA posted, this was not so, Rasputin was their original name....  Very confusing....
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Forum Admin on February 08, 2005, 03:47:15 PM
Radzinsky does not cite Spiridovitch in his bibliography either.
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 04:55:38 PM
I didn't think he did.. :)

This is a book that I have yet to finish due to my indescision about its historicity--is this book at all accurate?
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 04:58:52 PM
Quote
I didn't think he did.. :)

This is a book that I have yet to finish due to my indescision about its historicity--is this book at all accurate?


Lets put it this way, Radzinsky tends to get a little carried away with the drama and has been known to apply his "artistic license" a bit too often  ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 05:14:30 PM
I was afraid of that.  :(

It really is an entertaining read, though!!  I did pick up two other Rasputin Books on Amazon, one is by Moynahan ,and I don't remember the other.  They were both recommended on the forum though....Haven't had time to read them yet (what else is new?)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: brendan on February 09, 2005, 06:46:39 PM
Quote

 Now, just because Steinberg said this doesn't automatically make it true of course, but my point is, even a serious historian accepted this as fact - enough to use in his lecture, so perhaps it is possible this was the case?


:)Dont forget that everyone of us doing research or just talking here, are every bit the historian this Steinburg guy is.   Ive learned just as much if not more from you and many other peoples posts on this site  then from guys like Steinberg, Radzinsky, and every other "serious historian". :)
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on February 12, 2005, 12:19:27 PM
Quote

I am bringing this up again because of something I heard this morning. I was listening to a Russian history audio course, given by Dr Mark Steinberg, a Russian History Professor at the University of Illinois (he is also the author of THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS). When he was talking about Rasputin, he said exactly what I posted before, that "his real name was 'Novikh' and 'Rasputin' was a nickname given to him because it means 'debauched'". Now, just because Steinberg said this doesn't automatically make it true of course, but my point is, even a serious historian accepted this as fact - enough to use in his lecture, so perhaps it is possible this was the case? As I mentioned before, I came across this information in several different places, not just in Erickson's book....

And according to Radzinsky "A mere two months after their first meeting, the tsar was personally engaged in changing the unknown peasant's last name....Alix was upset about the unpleasant-sounding name, so inappropriate to the character of the holy man...Bendkendorf informed:'In conveying to me this written petition from Rasputin, His Majesty had deigned to express his special desire that the request be respected.' On 22 Dec. 1906, the petition was granted."
Also the story in which Iliodor quotes Rasputin saying that it was Alexei who upon seeing Rasputin apparently cried "Novy, novy, novy, (and not Novykh, that is the genitive case of Novy that appeared on letters and telegramms meaning from Novy) meaning the new one. This was also the official story, although perhaps not the truth. True or not true, they all point to the fact that Rasputin's real name was Rasputin and not Novy. Otherwise why would he have to go through a legal name change process in order to change his name. If Rasputin as they say was merely a nickname given to them by the other peasants, it wouldn't be necessary to have a legal petition to change it.
I don't know Steinberg, but I consider Radzinsky to be, if somewhat flamboyant, nevertheless a historian.
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Forum Admin on February 12, 2005, 12:44:17 PM
From Rasputine by Spiridovitch, pg. 73 (my translation):
"That year (1906) or the following year, Rasputin received the name "Novyk".  His daughter Matrona explained that it happened one day when the Tsarevich greeted Grigori with the words "Papa, Papa! here is the new one (Novy)!" This nickname pleased Their Majesties, and so they gave him this new name.  The enemies of the Staryets said that they had changed his name because Rasputin as a name came from "rasputsvo" or debauched, which served as proof to them that his family had long been famous for their vices.  However, as to the Rasputin family themselves, they explain that the name came from the word "rasputye" or the crossing of roads, and moreover this is the far more likely explanation.  In any event, changing Rasputin's name only served to give new ammunition to his enemies."
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 12:55:56 PM
Ok, so it seems that this is how this name confusion originated... Thanks.  
 
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Johnny on February 12, 2005, 02:35:02 PM
Quote
In Radzinsky "Rasputin File" it talks on page 79 how Alexangra was upset at the shameful name the holy man bore, and had him renamed Rasputin-Novy.  "The tsar then gave the order to call me not by the name Rasputin, but Novy." (Iliodor recorded Rasputin's words on the name change.)

This is the genius of Radzinsky as a playwright! I just reread the passage in question in his book. He never says that it was a fact that Alexandra was upset with his name so she ordered him to change it. It's implied but not stated. A word like "perhaps" or "possibily" or "probably" is very poetically omitted and the whole passage is all of a sudden transformed into something else. He is a great, great fiction writer.
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 12, 2005, 10:36:37 PM
Quote
He is a great, great fiction writer.


Isn't he though?  :D  His book has become my guilty pleasure in between the scholarly type books I am reading on the Romanovs.  He is just too entertaining!  
Title: Re: Rasputin
Post by: Denise on February 12, 2005, 10:37:56 PM
Quote
From Rasputine by Spiridovitch, pg. 73 (my translation):
"That year (1906) or the following year, Rasputin received the name "Novyk".  His daughter Matrona explained that it happened one day when the Tsarevich greeted Grigori with the words "Papa, Papa! here is the new one (Novy)!" This nickname pleased Their Majesties, and so they gave him this new name.  The enemies of the Staryets said that they had changed his name because Rasputin as a name came from "rasputsvo" or debauched, which served as proof to them that his family had long been famous for their vices.  However, as to the Rasputin family themselves, they explain that the name came from the word "rasputye" or the crossing of roads, and moreover this is the far more likely explanation.  In any event, changing Rasputin's name only served to give new ammunition to his enemies."


So THIS is the real story behind Radzinsky's drama.  Thanks for posting this!!
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 12, 2005, 10:38:41 PM
Here's a post by the FA on this issue from another thread....

Quote
From Rasputine by Spiridovitch, pg. 73 (my translation):
"That year (1906) or the following year, Rasputin received the name "Novyk".  His daughter Matrona explained that it happened one day when the Tsarevich greeted Grigori with the words "Papa, Papa! here is the new one (Novy)!" This nickname pleased Their Majesties, and so they gave him this new name.  The enemies of the Staryets said that they had changed his name because Rasputin as a name came from "rasputsvo" or debauched, which served as proof to them that his family had long been famous for their vices.  However, as to the Rasputin family themselves, they explain that the name came from the word "rasputye" or the crossing of roads, and moreover this is the far more likely explanation.  In any event, changing Rasputin's name only served to give new ammunition to his enemies."
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 13, 2005, 08:21:21 AM
Quote
Here's a post by the FA on this issue from another thread....



Thanks, Denise. That thread is actually where this discussion started  :). Looks like that maybe that explains the origin of the name confusion...
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 09:10:39 AM
Quote

Thanks, Denise. That thread is actually where this discussion started  :). Looks like that maybe that explains the origin of the name confusion...


Yes, it certainly clears up Radzinsky's overly dramatized version of events, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 13, 2005, 10:54:03 AM
Radzinksy wasn't the only one who presented this "name" theory, but I think that all it takes is just one initial story, and everyone seems to pick it up and repeat it, sometimes without proper verification... And this is how it comes to be accepted as fact.
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Johnny on February 13, 2005, 04:03:10 PM
As I said before, I don't necessarily agree with Radzinsky's explanation as to why. Although, he, too, quotes Spiridovich in his book. Whether Rasputin comes from rasputstvo (debauched) or the Russian word for crossroads, the fact still remains that his original last name was Rasputin and not Novy.
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 08:47:57 PM
Yes.  It is pretty much agreed that the Novy came from Nicholas....
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: AGRBear on March 09, 2005, 03:14:19 PM
Since the last name appeared to have been Rasputin, perhaps the meaning of the name correctly characterized his ancestor  ;D  who was given the name and it stuck not only to him but all those who followed in that line.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Alekseovich on June 11, 2005, 10:04:06 AM
From "Bolshoi Russki po-Angliski Slavar" (Comprehensive Russian English Dictionary) Shmirnitski et al;
The closest root word to "Rasputin" is the verb Rasputats; to untie or untangle.
In typical Russian construction the word rasputin would then be a person who untied or untangled. Perhaps in the ancient villige culture the person or persons who untied the livestock to let them out to pasture. There also seams to be a colateral meaning related to travel. Getting "untagled" on the road or "un-lost." So it might be that a rasputin was a guide.
The word rasputnik (still in use) is one who is not tied or tangled. As in not tangled by the bonds of marriage, thus a libertine. Not far from "debauched" to some.
It is in the related verb putats ( to tie, tagle, obscure) that the meaning relating to travel is a bit stronger. So a "Putin" would then be one who tangles, obscures or causes people, or things, to become lost.  
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: rudy3 on June 11, 2005, 03:02:33 PM
About "Novy":
In Nicholas' personal archives is Rasputin's request, dated Dec. 15th 1906, to the Tsar, to grant him and his descendants to be called "Rasputin Novy". As reason he wrote: "Living in the vilage of Pokrovskoe, my family name is Rasputin, the same family name I share with many other villagers, therefore may rise all kinds of minsunderstandings."
In municipal documents of Pokrovskoe from 1908 is a remark next to Rasputin's name: Grigorij has been allowed with permission from the Tsar to be called by the family name "Rasputin-Novy". Order from the Tobolsk State Chamber from March 7th 1907, under No. 9136 in case No. 11/1907.
With thanks to Rasputin researcher Arthur Chernyshov,
Tjumen.  
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Johnny on June 20, 2005, 06:33:10 AM
Quote
Getting "untagled" on the road or "un-lost." So it might be that a rasputin was a guide.
The word rasputnik (still in use) is one who is not tied or tangled. As in not tangled by the bonds of marriage, thus a libertine. Not far from "debauched" to some.

Hey, we still have lots of "Hookers" living in the English speaking world. Yet another word that can be interpreted in many ways  ;)
Title: Re: Rasputin's last name
Post by: Georgiy on June 20, 2005, 06:43:53 PM
Based on the medallion posted on the Pictures of Rasputin thread, he should be known as Rasputin-Noviy, but I guess Rasputin just rolls off the tongue that little bit better ;)