Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Russian Noble Families => Topic started by: mishaxenia on June 15, 2009, 09:35:29 AM

Title: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on June 15, 2009, 09:35:29 AM
These are photos representing Russian nobles, do you know someone?
Could the big building in the photo be a country-house? Thank you for your help
(http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/1938/2699507340105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2699507340105221653uWRCVm)
(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/43004/2864289710105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2864289710105221653UKnmqv)
(http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/12819/2913571290105221653S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2913571290105221653QDSsno)
(http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/29222/2031295280105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2031295280105221653jiIxjA)
(http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/5225/2084540220105221653S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2084540220105221653EsGSFe)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on June 15, 2009, 10:32:14 AM
These are photos representing Russian nobles, do you know someone?

Other photos of Russian Nobles --------
-----I would like to know who is the lady in the middle holding an umbrella and loking back, could she be the empress or duchess Elizabeth?
Do you know someone else?--------------------
(http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/33077/2655464910105221653S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2655464910105221653QhuvEf)
(http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/45187/2683540590105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2683540590105221653INOpOL)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Svetabel on June 24, 2009, 02:47:03 AM
I don't think that's the Empress or the Grand Duchess. Just a some noble lady.
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Marc on May 20, 2010, 09:08:12 AM
Can anyone tell me about a man whose portrait was labeled as Russian minister and general  D.Doberowolsky...I searched the web,but must be that the spelling is wrong

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/MinisterDDoberowolsky.jpg)


I am also particularly interested in order that he is wearing,specially this one...

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/order.jpg)

Can anyone also tell me which order is this?
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on May 20, 2010, 10:26:13 AM
At first glance, with the green (laurel ?) leaved-ringed border, it appears to be the the Star of the earlier Poland/later Imperial Russian Order of Saint Stanislaus. I can stand to be corrected, however, as I usually think of more of the center portion being WHITE with the Saint's initials in red. (The example that I own is undoubtedly a later reproduction.) The illustration in the painting may only be largely suggestive of the Order.  He is indeed much decorated.    AP
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Marc on May 23, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
Thank you for this...there are too many similar star breast orders :-(
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on May 24, 2010, 12:01:20 AM
Response to Reply # 3:  You are most welcome!  It's not the number of breast star orders that bedevil me (fot the Imperial Russian ones are indeed relatively few), but it's the carelessness with which even the TRUE artists of the time ATTEMPT to depict them in general shape, placement and color. They usually wind up, as jumbled, overlapping masses/blobs of color. This occasionally extends to the ribbands of orders, too. The adornment simply became secondary to their features, even though the accurate clothing/uniforms were available.   As a related "side-bar,TODAY, the many would-be "colorists" here who drool over eye-color and debate endlessly the minute shades of hair color, FREQUENTLY take NO time to research decorations on state/formal illustrations, thus bedecking especially the Granduchesses with stars of wrong color and ribbands of imaginary hues. The colors of their everyday dresses are almost totally imaginary, as most of the original colors are unknown, (but conversely, uniforms and decorations HAVE specified, recorded colors, which CAN be, but are seldom, researched), leaving the young colorists to enrapturously praise each other for their "STUNNING" works, when in truth most have utterly no idea of accuracy.  And these appaling combinations, potentially in hues that didn't even exist then, are passed on to "newbies." who may believe them to be "just like what THEY wore!"     AP
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on May 24, 2010, 05:55:43 AM
My little 5 cents;).

AP is right - this is star to St. Stanislaus (1st degree), but with wrong colours. On the neck there is also the Order itself (rightmost).

Other Orders are:
- Order of St. Vladimir of the 2nd degree. Star to the Order is just above the star to Stanislaus. Order itself is in the centre of the neck, just near St. Stanislaus.
- Pour le Mérite (Prussian highest Order). Order is on the neck just above the St. Vladimir.

Small ribbon between the Orders consist only from the different anniversary and service medals.
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on October 16, 2010, 06:12:38 PM
I have found these photos together with some photos featuring the imperial family. According to your knowledges can anybody tell me who is the lady featured ? I think she is Anna Vyrubova but I'm not sure. Thanks
Photo 1 anna young?
(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/38729/2608130330105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2608130330105221653pyhNep)
Photo 2 ??????
(http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/17712/2581906640105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2581906640105221653VpDEvG)
Photo 3 Anna ?
(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/46646/2107319760105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2107319760105221653Cuhcue)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on October 16, 2010, 06:13:55 PM
young Vyrubova with sister ?
(http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/9409/2814735830105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2814735830105221653rxvvKC)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on October 17, 2010, 04:28:43 AM
Yes, at all the photos you posted we can see Anna Vyrubova.

On the last one - Anna Vyrubova with her younger sister Alexandra.
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on October 19, 2010, 12:33:28 PM
Thanks,  I had doubts for photo 2, is signed Anna (in Russian). Photo 3 is a detail, the entire photo is Anna with the sister and a man (perhaps the brother). I have asked the opinion before post the photos in "Anna Vyrubova". For the last photo they are enough sure, is of Pasetti photographer , operating till 1904 because when the Tsarevich Alexei has  born,  the photographer was already Boisonnas successor of Pasetti . If it is corrected Anna it can have max 20 years. ?
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on October 21, 2010, 06:49:06 AM
I have found these photos together with some photos featuring the imperial family. According to your knowledges can anybody tell me who is the lady featured ? I think she is Anna Vyrubova but I'm not sure. Thanks
Photo 1 anna young?
(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/38729/2608130330105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2608130330105221653pyhNep)
Photo 2 ??????
(http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/17712/2581906640105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2581906640105221653VpDEvG)
Photo 3 Anna ?
(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/46646/2107319760105221653S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2107319760105221653Cuhcue)

Photo Anna young?
(http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/22451/2030626020105221653S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2030626020105221653GHABvl)
Photo Anna ?(http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/24111/2843232030105221653S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2843232030105221653HHkOIF)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: David Pritchard on February 02, 2011, 07:40:33 PM
These are photos representing Russian nobles, do you know someone?

(http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/29222/2031295280105221653S500x500Q85.jpg)

This fellow appears to be a sergeant (wearing a "superveste" worn while on palace duty) in one of Russia's most exclusive and elite regiments, the Chevaliers Gardes.
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Iceman on July 25, 2012, 11:41:26 AM
Hi all I am completely new to the forum ... I love my Czar
how many noble families existed in Russia before the revolt of 1917 ???
 how many are left today??
how many of the families living in exile today in contact with the imperial family?? 

 farewell iceman
Title: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: wladimir on December 27, 2012, 02:11:07 PM
(http://i47.tinypic.com/seydr5.jpg)

Hello, I have this portrait of a noble man that I believe to be maybe russian.
The crest seems to be the Orlov' coat of arms.
The portrait was painted in the year 1713  and the man was 41 years old. (anno aetatis suae)
The cross like St-Anna order.
Off course I am really not shure about the description so that is why I have posted this portrait trying to get an historical scholar advice.
Many thanks.
W
(http://i47.tinypic.com/5cda94.jpg)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/9jgbja.jpg)
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Forum Admin on December 27, 2012, 02:27:02 PM
Can not be Orlov or the St. Anne order.  The Order of St. Anne was not created until 1735, so 'if' painted in 1714, its too early.  Grigori Grigorievich Orlov was not even born until 1734.  The heraldic crest is close to Orlov, however not exactly a match, their should be two lions rampant in each quadrant, and a few other minor differences.

Sorry I can't help more, but there are those here far more knowledgable than I am on the subject of 18th century heraldry.

Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on December 27, 2012, 04:14:43 PM
Can not be Orlov or the St. Anne order.  The Order of St. Anne was not created until 1735, so 'if' painted in 1714, its too early.  Grigori Grigorievich Orlov was not even born until 1734.  The heraldic crest is close to Orlov, however not exactly a match, their should be two lions rampant in each quadrant, and a few other minor differences.

Sorry I can't help more, but there are those here far more knowledgable than I am on the subject of 18th century heraldry.



  Just saw this posting and these are my INITIAL reactions (I will gladly stand to be corrected in any and all circumstances) and I offer these for consideration:
  I agree this is not the Russian Order of Saint Anne.  The depiction of the seated frontal (and sceptered) Virgin and the way in which she holds the Child is more traditionally reminiscent, IMO. to that of European (non-Russian) origin. My first guess would be "German," taking into the consideration of all the Germanic kingdoms, duchies, etc.  
  The peculiar lace rectangular neck "tabs," collar, etc. of the individual do not appear in my eyes to be Russian.
  The decoration's neck-piece is apparently highly jeweled and the individual is wearing no other decorations (such as a star of the order, but then again, this neck piece may be ALL that is prescribed for that grade of the order).
  Could it be an ecclesiastical order worn by an obviously titled noble (not necessarily an ecclesiastic), or could the neck-piece be an elaborate personal pectoral cross of his own preference?
  In reference to the arms: the bicephalous eagle is seen frequently in many coats-of arms.  The crown adorning the over-all arms is not the shape of the Russian crown, but the closed arches and the center frontal-facing helm, do indicate a family of significant rank. The manteling indicates to me, that the family/ies' heraldic colors are red and white. There also appear to be two "horned-shaped" items in the crest, that are often seen on "Germanic" coats-of-arms's crests.
  Unfortunately, I can't quite tell, but are there halos around the heads of the eagles in those particular quarters?  Russian eagles do not carry such, unlike the heraldic bicephalous eagles of the Holy Roman Empire.

  Regardless, these are (again) some INITIAL reactions, to be considered/ruled out.  
  
  Good luck on your research.     Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2012, 08:38:41 AM
This double eagle was also a symbol of Holy Roman Empire called "doppeladler",holding a crown on it's two heads and sword and scepter in it's legs...plus,the colors of red and white indicates Austrian land colors...so,i guess,this was a Catholic Prince-Bishop of a High ranking church dignitary of some Austrian Princely family(German ones are a bit different) as the Crown in it's coat of arms indicates...

The second one is almost the same as one on the top of the coat of arms:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Album%201/crowns_zps6819f69d.jpg)
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Nicolay on February 03, 2013, 08:10:05 AM
the center Shield on the right "hand" side, underlines the Austrian Empire "Theory"
because of "Kaernten"

and the lower right "hand" quarter show clearly the halos of the double headed eagle!

Also the Collar should be Lutheran- Protestant, which doesn't exclude a catholic family,

there is one similar, from Sweden "Pauli" but it's not identical... also this family originated from the "Kaernten Region"

http://www.svenskadel.nu/pauli.gif
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Nicolay on February 05, 2013, 03:41:28 AM
At least we can be sure about the
right "hand" shield !

http://www.manfredhiebl.de/Genealogien/Goerz/grafen_von_goerz.htm
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: wladimir on February 05, 2013, 03:53:15 AM
Hello,
many thanks for all your informations!
Kind regards
W
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Nicolay on February 11, 2013, 06:12:26 AM
To really determine to whom these arms belong, we need a better picture of the dark central shield on the left hand side!

Even with Photoshop it's hard to see/determine the charges.....!
;)
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: wladimir on February 11, 2013, 03:56:23 PM
Hello the best I can do.
Many thanks to you
Best regards
W

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2jfixbl.jpg)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on March 23, 2013, 05:29:49 PM
Please, this woman is identified as princess Orlov.  someone recognizes ?

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1723/immaginelrh.png
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 06, 2013, 03:00:34 PM
It's only a partial likeness and sorry, I don't recognize her.
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on June 06, 2013, 08:04:31 AM
Please,  I would like your help,someone has a image of Irina  Naryshkin (1879-1917) ?  wife of Hilarion Vorontzov Dashkov, after the divorce married Serge Dolgoruky. His daughter Maria married Prince Nikita Romanov.   I found  news in some sites but no image.  Thanks !!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Veronica on June 06, 2013, 07:21:12 PM
Please excuse me for the quality, I took a photo of it because I don't have a scanner at hand right now. This image comes from the book about GD Xenia, "Once a grand duchess". I hope this helps.

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8443/dsc04355k.jpg)

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7536/dsc04356h.jpg)

Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on June 07, 2013, 05:03:20 PM
Please excuse me for the quality, I took a photo of it because I don't have a scanner at hand right now. This image comes from the book about GD Xenia, "Once a grand duchess". I hope this helps.

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8443/dsc04355k.jpg)

(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7536/dsc04356h.jpg)


Many thanks Veronica !!! perfect
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Veronica on June 07, 2013, 05:20:58 PM
You're welcome!
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Nicolay on August 12, 2013, 07:31:03 AM
"Simplicius" was so nice to help!

Quote
"
Es ist das Wappen der Grafen von Wicka (Wicka zu Wickenburg und Reinegg). Ein Teil der Symbole taucht im Siebmacher Band VI (?) bei den Freiherrlichen auf, sind dort als “Wibsa“ bezeichnet. Dass mit den „Wibsa“ aber die Wicka gemeint sind, kann man einem Ergänzungsband des Siebmachers (S.10, rechte Spalte) entnehmen. Das freiherrliche Wappen wird anhand einer Darstellung auf einem Grabstein in der St. Nikolaus-Pfarrkirche zu Hall (Tirol) beschrieben, nachzulesen in den Veröffentlichungen des Tiroler Landesmuseums Ferdinandeum, 3/20 (1876), S.25 unten.


Das vermehrte gräfliche Wappen kann man in Form eines Exlibris für Franz Adam Maria Anton Graf von Wicka mit dem freiherrlichen vergleichen. Daneben gibt es momentan noch zwei Wappenblätter bei EBAY zu sehen. Wicka Heraldik WAPPEN 1776, und Wicka : WAPPEN 1819. (größere Abb. scroll down)

Ich vermute das der Görzer Schild im vermehrten gräflichen Wappen auf eine Funktion der Familie im Dienste der Habsburger hinweist. Anhaltspunkte dafür gibt es evtl. in der Beschreibung des Exlibris. Die eigentlichen Grafen von Görz waren ja im 18.Jh. schon lange ausgestorben.

(Noch am Rande, - die lat. Bezeichnung ætatis suæ auf dem Porträt – bedeutet „sein Alter“, Zahl ist allerdings verblasst. Der schwarz-rote Talar (?) und das Kreuz mit einer Muttergottes (?) könnten auf besondere Würden hindeuten.)

Grüße"""

http://www.wappenbuch.com/F004.htm

http://books.google.de/books?id=3QBCAAAAcAAJ&hl=de&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.landesmuseum.at/pdf_frei_remote/VeroeffFerd_3_20_0001-0042.pdf#page=25&zoom=110.00000000000001,0,530

http://www.ehb.it/138d869.html

http://www.ebay.es/itm/Wicka-Heraldik-WAPPEN-1776-/150329927902

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wicka-WAPPEN-1819-/150391452371



a kind rough transl. from Richard Lichten!

"""
It is the coat of arms of the Counts of Wicka (Wicka to Wickenburg and Reinegg). Part of the symbols appeared in Siebmacher Volume VI (?) At the baronial on, are there as "Wibsa" called. That the "Wibsa" but the Wicka are meant to be a supplementary volume of Siebmachers (p. 10, right column) refer. The baronial coat of arms is based on a presentation on a grave stone in the St. Nicholas Parish Church Hall described (Tyrol), read in the publications of the Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum, 3/20 (1876), p.25 below . increased the count's coat of arms can be seen in the form of a bookplate for Adam Franz Anton Graf von Maria Wicka with the baronial compare. In addition, there are currently two leaves crest on EBAY to see. Wicka Heraldry ARMS 1776 , and Wicka: ARMS 1819 . (Fig. larger scroll down) I suspect that the Gorizia sign in increased count's coat of arms indicates a function of the family in the service of the Habsburgs. Evidence that there are possibly in the description of bookplates. The actual counts of Gorizia were indeed in the 18th century . extinct for a long time (even in passing, - the Latin name Aetatis Suae on the portrait - means "his age," The number is, however, faded black-red robe () and the cross with a Mother of God () could be on.? Would suggest special.) Greetings  """

Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: wladimir on August 12, 2013, 09:36:18 AM
Hello,

many-many thanks for your precious information.
Kind regards

Wladimir
Title: Re: Who could help me to identify this Portrait from the 18th century - Orlov?
Post by: Nicolay on August 12, 2013, 10:16:11 AM
No Problem,

....I faintly remember that Austria had (for a short period) a similar version of the Order of St. Catherine (St. Katharinen Orden)

maybe somebody will find the answer ? !

http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/images/stcathbg.jpg

The Russian Order was established in "1714" originally for "Men" ..only later changed for "Women" only!
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on July 21, 2014, 11:19:37 AM
I am sure you have already seen this photo in the forum, but I can not find her for the identification. Maybe it's of the family Vorontsov . Thanks

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh632/misha311/T2eC16NHJGIFFod7r7fBRkeNnri3Q60_57_zps2d886bde.jpg
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Svetabel on July 21, 2014, 02:20:15 PM
I am sure you have already seen this photo in the forum, but I can not find her for the identification. Maybe it's of the family Vorontsov . Thanks

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh632/misha311/T2eC16NHJGIFFod7r7fBRkeNnri3Q60_57_zps2d886bde.jpg

Countess Maria Vasilievna Vorontsova, nee Prss Troubetzkaya (1819-95)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: mishaxenia on July 23, 2014, 12:35:23 PM
I am sure you have already seen this photo in the forum, but I can not find her for the identification. Maybe it's of the family Vorontsov . Thanks

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh632/misha311/T2eC16NHJGIFFod7r7fBRkeNnri3Q60_57_zps2d886bde.jpg

Countess Maria Vasilievna Vorontsova, nee Prss Troubetzkaya (1819-95)
Many thanks !!
Title: Searching for "Anna Vladimirovna" and "Beatriche Emilievna" in Italy, 1941....
Post by: robsonrr on September 03, 2014, 08:53:07 PM
Hello folks,

I am working through a personal archive of a Russian artist living in Italy during World War II. There is a postcard written to a man named A.E. Mutti, Firenze. The card mentions my subject (P.M. Sofronov). It is signed "Anna Vladimirovna i Beatriche Emilievna." I simply cannot find Mr. Mutti, Anna, or Beatriche.

Any ideas? Many thanks.

RRR
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: gleb on May 17, 2015, 04:51:16 AM
As there isn't any specific thread specifically dedicated to Princes Dolgorukov I will post here my question, because in a way it is a sort of identification question:

Dolgoruki and Dolgorukov are the same family?

I can't understand why sometimes one finds a form of this surname and some other times the second one.

As far ad I could find out Dolgorukov seems to be more exact and reflects the real russian name...Is it right?

Thanks for any help.


Why the wife of Tsar Ivan IV is called Maria Dolgorukya? schouldn't she be nominated Maria Dolgorukova?
Sorry for my ignorance in russian language.
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: Превед on May 17, 2015, 07:59:08 AM
Quote
As there isn't any specific thread specifically dedicated to Princes Dolgorukov I will post here my question, because in a way it is a sort of identification question:

Dolgoruki and Dolgorukov are the same family?

I can't understand why sometimes one finds a form of this surname and some other times the second one.

As far ad I could find out Dolgorukov seems to be more exact and reflects the real russian name...Is it right?


See this thread: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=17828.0 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=17828.0)
Title: Re: Identification Russian Nobles
Post by: gleb on May 17, 2015, 02:43:37 PM
thank you, I will give a look in that thread.