Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Servants, Friends and Retainers => Topic started by: M_Breheny on March 31, 2004, 07:48:43 PM

Title: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: M_Breheny on March 31, 2004, 07:48:43 PM
Does anyone have any information on the fate of Dr. Vladimir Derevenko and his family?  We know that Dr. Derevenko was allowed to practice medicine in Ekaterinburg and to visit Alexei numerous times at the Ipatiev House (although no conversation between him and the family was allowed).  I have always wondered why Dr. Derevenko was not arrested or detained with the others.  Was it because he could be more useful as a physician, or was there another reason?    Supposedly, the last letter writter by Alexei was to Kolya Derevenko, who I assume lived with his father and family in Ekaterinburg.  From other postings, I have learned that Kolya survived, although he always refused to write about his experience with the family.  

Mary
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: JM on March 31, 2004, 08:01:46 PM
In Greg and Penny's book The Fate of the Romanovs it cites a possible reason why Dr. Derevenko was allowed to stay and practise medicine. Ccommissar Beloborodov's wife was suffering from the Spanish Influenza. Derevenko treated her and apparently Beloborodov granted Vladimir his freedom.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Penny_Wilson on March 31, 2004, 09:02:49 PM
This is what we thought the most plausible reason for his freedom, though it could simply be that Dr. Derevenko was  not a courtier.  He was very much like a modern doctor, being a businessman as well.  And of course, he had not exactly hidden his bitterness over being dragged into exile with the family: Gleb Botkin remembered Derevenko yelling at Dr. Botkin more than once, "Some job you've found for me, I'm telling you!"

We also came across a small piece of testimony from a Bolshevik stating that Dr. Botkin might also have been allowed to leave the Ipatiev House and live at liberty in Ekaterinburg, had some members of the Ural Regional Soviet not taken a dislike to his somewhat high-handed attitude -- or what they perceived as his high-hadned attitude.  Although I wonder if Botkin would have left the Ipatiev House voluntarily anyway...

Derevenko has always been a difficult case to read.  Some think that he totally went over to the Bolsheviks, "abandoning himself among the enemy" as Mikhail Diterikhs called it.  But I tend to believe that he simply tried to do the best he could for the Romanovs, while always placing his own family's well-being first.  He was devoted to his mother, wife and Kolya.

Which is not to say that he did not do what he could for the Family from the outside.  He may well have been a point-man for monarchist plotters who gathered in the city.  There are vague hints that he passed information to Tatishchev and Dolgoruky, who may have been released from prison at one point.  Of course, all of this is very nebulous because Tatishchev and Dolgoruky were either killed by the Ural Regional Soviet, or disappeared in the Civil War; Derevenko remained in the Soviet Union, keeping his head down and trying to get on with life; and Kolya was silent on what he may have known, if anything as he was so young at the time.

Now that Nicholas Derevenko is dead, it would be interesting to know if he ever confided anything in his family. I find it easy to believe that he kept his mouth shut in order to protect any family or friends he may still have had in the Soviet Union -- plus I can completely understand his not wanting to expose family business to the public eye.  He may also, like his father, have wanted to limit his association with the Imperial Family.  But hopefully he will have said a thing or two to his children or grandchildren -- and hopefully, at some time, someone will interview them.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: BobAtchison on April 01, 2004, 08:26:10 AM
"From the very beginning (in Yekaterinburg), we proposed they (the servants and Doctor Botkin) leave the Romanovs.  Some of them went away and the others said they wished to share the monarch's fate.  Let them share it..."

From the memoirs of M. A. Medvedev (Kudrin), a participant in the family's shooting - December 1963 - Last Act of a Tragedy.

Bob
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Greg_King on April 02, 2004, 12:56:58 AM
On the fate of Dr. Derevenko, this is what we found out while researching "The Fate of the Romanovs:"

Dr. Derevenko spent the first few months after the fall of Ekaterinburg in the city, assisting the investigators Nametkin and Sergeyev and helping to identify various items from the Ipatiev House and those found at the Ganina Mine.  At the end of 1918 he took his wife and children to Perm, where he got a position as a professor at Perm University Hospital.  In 1919, when the city was surrounded by fighting from both Reds and Whites, he fled again with his family to Tomsk, where he became head of the military district hospital.  Here he lived quietly until the 1930s, when he was arrested by the NKVD and subjected to interrogation under torture about presumably the Romanovs' jewels hidden while they were in Tobolsk.  He died in 1936 while still imprisoned by the NKVD, probably under torture.

As to Kolya Derevenko, he lived in Siberia for a time, then in Europe; he was in Prague where he worked as an engineer, but left just before the outbreak of the Second World War, and moved to Canada.  He lived near the New York State/Ontario border, and had contacts with several Russian emigree establishments in New York State before his death in 1999.  As Penny says, we've never been able to find out if he left any written memoirs or not, or even spoke about his time with the Romanovs.

Greg King
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Vive_HIH_Aleksey on August 12, 2004, 04:06:08 PM
What happened to the doctor's son Kolya, Aleksey's playmate? I know he died soon after Aleksey, any idea how old he was, how he died?
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 12, 2004, 04:17:23 PM
No, Kolya didn't after Alexei. the boy who died after Alexei was Leonid Sedenev the Kitchen boy.

Kolya =1906-1999
Leonid=1904-1927

They were both friends of Alexei.

Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 12, 2004, 04:40:27 PM
Kolia Derevenko remained a loyal friend to Alexis N. for the remainder of his life. He steadfastly refused interviews and offers to write a book.

Penny and Greg mention Leshka Sednev dying young in the 1920's. If he was killed by Stalin, it would not have caused that Bolshie any lost sleep.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Abby on August 12, 2004, 04:44:52 PM
I read in Guy Richards' "The Hunt for the Czar" or maybe it was "Rescuing the Romanovs" that Kolya was a big believer in the Alexei claimant, Michael G (i forget how to spell his last name!) anyway, Kolya seemed to remember a lot about Alexei in the book and was very semtimental regarding his memories.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: amelia on October 16, 2005, 08:33:34 AM
Accoring to Gleb Botkin book - The real Romanovs - Dr. Derevenko was very upset at being a doctor to the IF.  He complained immensily to Dr. Botkin, who hired him.  He went to Siberia at the imposition of Dr. Botkin. His son probably had the same feelings.  I always thought that it was very strange that he was allowed to have his own practice in Siberia, and that he was not imprisoned like the others.

According to Gleb Botkin he was not a friend at all.

Amelia
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 16, 2005, 11:53:49 AM
Quote
Accoring to Gleb Botkin book - The real Romanovs - Dr. Derevenko was very upset at being a doctor to the IF.  He complained immensily to Dr. Botkin, who hired him.  He went to Siberia at the imposition of Dr. Botkin. His son probably had the same feelings.  I always thought that it was very strange that he was allowed to have his own practice in Siberia, and that he was not imprisoned like the others.

According to Gleb Botkin he was not a friend at all.

Amelia


Amelia: Dr. Derevenko was able to practice in Siberia because physicians were very much needed there during that period. I don't see anything sinister about a doctor practicing medicine anywhere. It was quite different for Botkin, who was a court physician, possessed of assets and often ill - he was not under arrest AFAIK until Ekaterinburg. Had he chosen, he likely could have practiced medicine in Tobolsk as his colleague did.

I also don't find it unreasonable that Dr. D complained about his lot to Dr. B. Many people worked for the IF for the prestige of it. Derevenko had a family to support and was not a wealthy man. That he lacked the selfless devotion of the handful who remained with the family surely makes him less heroic in the eyes of many. But, please remember that many people, including aristocrats and members of their own family, abandoned Nicholas and Alexandra and their children before the ink on the abdication was dry.

From what I can tell, in spite of his complaints, Dr. D did not abandon them as had so many others. As someone who helps support a family of two children, two dogs and two cats, I cannot find fault with someone who is also serious about keeping a family together. For his trouble, Dr. D was also murdered by Stalin.

As to Kolya, you are incorrect that he felt as his father did. Kolya left Russia and remained loyal to Alexei until he died in 1999. Few of us can boast a friend so loyal.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Condecontessa on July 28, 2007, 02:32:52 PM
At first, I was shocked that Gilliard, Gibbes and Dr. Derevenko took the then 12 year old Kolya with them to the Ipatiev House. But after awhile, I think the reason why Kolya was with them is because they were expecting the imperial family to be found alive inside the house. I remember reading somewhere that Kolya was not at all interested in writing a memoir about his best friend and little Tsar. Does anyone know if Kolya's still alive today? I also find it curious that according to the interview, Kolya saw Sednev at the Ipatiev House. I thought that he mysteriously disappeared or something like that.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Condecontessa on July 28, 2007, 04:26:10 PM
Dr. Botkin's children- Gleb and Tatiana Botkin was pro Anna Anderson. They're the only relatives of Botkin that I know of. I'm not sure if it was Gleb who pointed out Dr. Derevenko's supposed disloyalty to the imperial family.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sarushka on July 28, 2007, 05:29:48 PM
Does anyone know if Kolya's still alive today?


Lisa said in her last post that Kolya died in 1999.

Quote
I also find it curious that according to the interview, Kolya saw Sednev at the Ipatiev House. I thought that he mysteriously disappeared or something like that.

As far as I know, there wasn't anything mysterious about Leonid Sednev's "disappearance." I think it's more a matter of history losing track of him, which to me is not terribly strange. He was a young boy, probably not viewed as particularly important, and he was left without family in Yekaterinburg at a chaotic point in Russian history. He more or less slipped through the cracks, I'd imagine.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Condecontessa on July 29, 2007, 03:34:48 PM
Thank you Sarushka for answering my questions :D. So was it Kolya in the pic or was it just mislabeled? Because in the pic it said it was taken in 2003.

It's terrible about poor Leonid Sednev. Did anyone wrote down his account of his experiences with the Imperial Family? It's a shame that he was thought unimportant because of his station in life. Just because he was mere servant, they deemed him unnecessary to keep track of. One wonders if he survived to old age and left descendants or he left the world at a young age like Alexei.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 29, 2007, 04:42:46 PM
My opinion only, but I don't think that the Botkins were involved with a scam. I would imagine their grief at losing their father ran very deep. To think that perhaps one of the grand duchesses survived may have made his death seem less senseless than it really was. So, I believe their grief caused them to be mistaken about AA.

I'm a bit confused about the Kolya seeing Sednev in the Ipatiev House statement. There were two Sednevs. Ivan Sednev was the grand duchess' footman, and he was removed from the house with Nagorny, and like him was murdered. Ivan's nephew, Leshka, was removed from the Ipatiev House only hours before the murders. He left Ekaterinburg fairly soon after that, because I don't think he saw Kolya again, but I may be mistaken.

As to Leshka, he died, allegedly of typhus, in 1928, so he was very young when he died. I have always thought that Stalin had him murdered, but this is my opinion. To my knowledge, he left neither a statement nor descendants.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 17, 2007, 02:22:03 PM
I'm not sure if it was Gleb who pointed out Dr. Derevenko's supposed disloyalty to the imperial family.

It wasn't Dr Derevenko who was supposedly disloyal to the IF, but the sailor Derevenko. No relation, just the same last name. And this was alleged by Anna Vyrubova, not Gleb Botkin. It still remains an assertion and has not been proven.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Condecontessa on August 17, 2007, 03:46:35 PM
Alexander IV, thank you for posting the link. It's great to see Kolya not only in black and white pics of him when he was small. I wish I can understand Russian but I can't. Can you please post what he was talking about in the interview?

Condecontessa
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Alexander_IV on August 17, 2007, 07:17:42 PM
I could if I understood any Russian at all :p
Unfortunately, like you, I don't :(

Nena translated part of it somewhere though I think. I'll see if I can find it

Edit: Here it is: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,9716.msg273644.html#msg273644
And this is the entire interview in Russian: http://www.oscar-film.ru/
I've tried translating it with online translators but surprise, surprise, that didn't work out quite well :p
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: nena on August 17, 2007, 07:28:38 PM
Thanks for giving credit, Alexander IV!
Yes, Kolia and one quard (I think Madvedev) really SAW Leonid Sednev in that kitchen, he was crying(so aloud, as Kolia descibes), that is true 100%
Near was Joy, Aleksei's dog!
Colud you imagine that sad scene, please?????
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on November 15, 2007, 04:39:42 PM
Greg,  there does exist a short interview with "Kolya" Derevenko by Edward Radzinsky that is available on line.  It alleges that it was done in 2003, but I believe that this is past the death of Kolya, thus I cannot explain the discrepency.  The interview is interspersed with clips of actors protraying the Romanovs, et al. at play, the night of the execution, etc. , as well as authentic period film snippets.  It is in Russian. This presentation, however is accompanied by :"Warning: that it is a very emotional video."  Please let me have your email and I will give to you the location for review and comment.  I think that posting it here in a wholesale fashion would be upsetting to be viewed by the more impressionable (younger) members who overly-identify with particulatly the Heir.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on November 15, 2007, 04:48:30 PM
To: Greg King   Addendum:  I am not totally familiar with the navigation of messages here, but I am learning!  I have just learned how to contact you off-line and thus will attempt do so about my previous post on Kolya Derevenko. 
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on November 15, 2007, 05:37:54 PM
Relative to the above 2 previous posts:  In doing a bit of research several minutes ago on various threads of this forum, I find that this subject matter has been addressed sufficiently already, thus I apologize for the duplication and diversion of your attention.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 04, 2011, 12:35:37 AM
There are two old threads in which parts of the interview were posted, on websites that are now inactive, so I have decided to post it here. The audio and video quality is mediocre, but it will do. Kolya died in 1999, and this interview was taken sometime in the 1990s, and was apparently featured as a promotional interview for the Romanovy: Ventsenosnaya Sem'ya, which was released in 2003.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DsS5EVu0-c

Nena generously translated a part of the interview:

I was a little boy, just 12 years old. I didn't know anything about people's evil. We lived in Popov house, very close to Ipatiev house. In the middle of summer 1918, I was afraid, and I was preoccupied about Alexei. I wanted to see him. And, I am sure, he wanted to see me. Until that sad day July 17, 1918. My father, Gilliard, Gibbes and others knew everything, but I knew nothing. Something terrible was going to happen, but I didn't know what....In the last week of July 1918, I , my father, Gilliard, Gibbes, etc. entered Ipatiev house. Terrible scene....House was in complete chaos; diaries, letters, albums, and other items were all around in house. 'But where is Leskela?' I asked my father, but I he didn't answer me. Leskela's diary was found by a White guard, I think his name was Nemetkin, I don't know. But Leonid Sednev....I saw him. He cried. His cried so aloud, so aloud!!!!!
I was confused. 'Papa, where is my Leskela?'-I asked.
'They killed him'. I then start to cry.
'But how?'
'They killed Tsar, Tsaritsa, and GDs also. All are dead."-said my father.
"I don't understand','where...where are bones'
'We don't know, maybe we'll never discover them'
I then perceive, life is brutal....I found Leskela's last letter written to me.Especially one sentence in that letter-'I hug you warmly'-made me so cry..I thought 'And I hug you warmly,too, my dear friend, my tsar...'
I was in shock. In latter years, I think just about him. 'Why did they killed you? In USSR, there is no space for my Leskela..We'l be forever friends, my  dear tsesarevich....I want to see you just ONE more time, and I can die in peace...


In letters, Alexei and Kolya would sign their names backwards, hence Ieskela.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 04, 2011, 01:15:41 AM
This is incredibly touching, thanks for posting ! I  had no idea he lived that long

(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/th_snowMt.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/snowMt.jpg)(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/th_AandK.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/AandK.jpg)

Alexei and Kolya
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 04, 2011, 07:18:48 AM
   Having known of this interview for some time, I have always been of the opinion that the interviewer is Edvard Radzinsky.

   As to the quote about how "loud" was the grief of the so-called "Kitchen Boy," I have referred earlier to it in my posting # 149 (June 17, 2010) on the thread "Leonid Sednev."                  
                                                                     Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on August 04, 2011, 07:40:53 AM
Very touching and informative - thank you!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 04, 2011, 03:23:03 PM
This is incredibly touching, thanks for posting ! I  had no idea he lived that long

(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/th_snowMt.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/snowMt.jpg)(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/th_AandK.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/AandK.jpg)

Alexei and Kolya
You're welcome! He was born in either 1905 or 1906 and lived to 93. That is 81 years dwelling on Leskela's absence.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on August 04, 2011, 08:27:14 PM
Goodness, that is incredibly touching.  :'( It inspired me to write a story or a poem based on it. Thank you for posting!

EDIT:
All right, here's the poem!

The scattered books,
Remains from what the Bolsheviks took.
The diary of a dead prince,
Found by a soldier who came too late.
The tears of the doctor’s son,
The sobs of the kitchen boy,
The day no longer golden.
The last letter,
Will not make things any better.
“Life is brutal”, indeed it ‘tis,
The shock that shakes him,
He can not comprehend.
To see his dearest friend,
Just one more time, before he dies,
It would mean the world, and so much more.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 04, 2011, 10:07:02 PM
 GrandDuchessAndrea , amazingly fabulous! Love it
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 04, 2011, 11:17:43 PM
The scattered books,
Remains from what the Bolsheviks took.
The diary of a dead prince,
Found by a soldier who came too late.
The tears of the doctor’s son,
The sobs of the kitchen boy,
The day no longer golden.
The last letter,
Will not make things any better.
“Life is brutal”, indeed it ‘tis,
The shock that shakes him,
He can not comprehend.
To see his dearest friend,
Just one more time, before he dies,
It would mean the world, and so much more.


That is great. Thank you for sharing that.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 05, 2011, 06:16:15 AM
Maybe my remark is odd, but...

I then perceive, life is brutal....I found Leskela's last letter written to me

Leskela is a diminutive for Alexej i had never hearded before... amazing! That's really really interesting to me ^^
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 05, 2011, 06:29:37 AM
I believe  both boys revered their names as a  special name to be used between them...so the name "Leskela" for Alexi , was one perhaps only Kolya. would use. 
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 05, 2011, 09:43:15 AM
I believe  both boys revered their names as a  special name to be used between them...so the name "Leskela" for Alexi , was one perhaps only Kolya. would use. 

Annie! Stop reading my mind, please! LOl, i'm joking of course. But it was exactly the same thing i was thinking!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 05, 2011, 11:08:54 AM
I believe  both boys revered their names as a  special name to be used between them...so the name "Leskela" for Alexi , was one perhaps only Kolya. would use. 
Annie! Stop reading my mind, please! LOl, i'm joking of course. But it was exactly the same thing i was thinking!
Great Romanov minds think alike. This cannot be helped! lol!..... And I think it says that in the first post! lol!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on August 05, 2011, 11:30:40 AM
GrandDuchessAndrea , amazingly fabulous! Love it
That is great. Thank you for sharing that.
I'm very glad you both liked it!  :)
So, Leskela for Aleksel...? What? Leskela backwards spells "Aleksel"! That doesn't make sense! It should be Ieskela!  ??? As for Koyla, he would have been called "Alyok" or "Ialokin". hehe, how funny those sound!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 05, 2011, 11:53:37 AM
GrandDuchessAndrea , amazingly fabulous! Love it
That is great. Thank you for sharing that.
I'm very glad you both liked it!  :)
So, Leskela for Aleksel...? What? Leskela backwards spells "Aleksel"! That doesn't make sense! It should be Ieskela!  ??? As for Koyla, he would have been called "Alyok" or "Ialokin". hehe, how funny those sound!

I don't know if the L was a mistake on the part of Nena, the translator, or if Leskela was instead derived from Ieskela (which would be pronounced "yes-kela"). Since I am uncertain myself, I didn't say exactly why it is spelled that way. Sarushka knows more about this than I.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 05, 2011, 12:02:57 PM
But i'm quite sure Andrea has found the key - or, at least, it sounds really good. Reading the names from the back! That's great! Maybe it's not the right way to interpretate it - i don't know either - but it would be really funny!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 05, 2011, 09:18:29 PM
Didn't Anastasia ands Alexis have their own language? ...I think I read that...they would like  to have such as it afforded some  privacy in a crowded world ...even in Siberia there were 40 plus people about !  Everyone we think of as a servant, had their own servants  . At lest in the beginning
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 05, 2011, 09:43:58 PM
  "blessOTMA, relative to your question on the "own language" between the GDuchess AN and the Heir:  Because of my on-going interest in formal/invented languages, sometime back, I vaguely recall a member of the Forum stated that this so-called spoken language had (if I recall correctly) the name of "Tarabar," or some derivative spelling thereof.   However, to my knowledge, they did not cite any specifically documented source/publication to reference such.                                                                      Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 06, 2011, 12:28:39 AM
I have read it also, Annie, and this is giving me some troubles! I mean, i really wuld like to know how this "private code" worked, but, as AP kindly pointed out, there are no documents - or, at least, i've not found them till now.
I'm trying to imagine, and to invent it, also because - even if i'd found it, i cpuldn't use it literally being in russian XD
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 06, 2011, 01:58:27 AM
Thank you aleksandr pavlovich and Sunny !  Given their mother's use of codes,( like the heart code none can crack! ) and the last two children's closeness,  I would be surprised if they didn't have some private means  to communcate to each other ...by until there is some proof, it remains speculation
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 06, 2011, 06:56:40 AM
  I seem to recall that some word "coded" notes between the smallest girl and the Heir exist, but they are of childish "gobbledygook."  These WRITTEN exchange/s MAY represent examples of the SPOKEN so-called "Tarabar" invented language (undoubtedly a VERY limited "word-substitution" exchange of potentially several intermingled languages coupled with childish insertions).  
  I have now gone back and searched the board and there are only TWO references to "Tarabar" prior to this one.  Neither of the posters (one dropped out of sight in January of 2007) could produce a definitive origin/extent/authenticated extant spoken examples, etc., only saying that they read about it in a now non-remembered source.                                            Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on August 06, 2011, 10:43:24 AM
Holly posted this a while ago in the "Just to put this out there--Romanov style" thread.
I've only seen it mentioned in one book that I can remember.

Maria, Anastasia and Alexei would use the coded language to write each other messages and exchange them secretly. It appears to me to just be a change in spellings and such.
Here's the only sample published so far:

"To Her Highness stupid Marie and Anostoie. Thanks for thesnakck I rekon well befightin. M. A. Alexei. 1914."
Apparently Maria was included too.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 06, 2011, 11:39:50 AM
makes sense as the Little Pair was together so much..
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 06, 2011, 12:27:54 PM
  As a follow-up:  IMO, what is most curious, both the former posters (one in March 2004 and the other in Jan. 2011) mentioned specifically the word "Tarabar," but do not comment on how the NAME was derived NOR a verifiably documented source of their information.  Thus HOW do we know the so-called name of this allegedly "code" language, so that two posters YEARS apart remark upon it?  Potential answer:  Perhaps they separately utilized a single and presently undefined source?  If so, that source's origin predates March, 2004. Who knows? One of history's little mysteries I suppose: terribly esoteric, and now truly a "dead language."                                                                                                Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 06, 2011, 01:55:48 PM
Holly posted this a while ago in the "Just to put this out there--Romanov style" thread.
I've only seen it mentioned in one book that I can remember.

Maria, Anastasia and Alexei would use the coded language to write each other messages and exchange them secretly. It appears to me to just be a change in spellings and such.
Here's the only sample published so far:

"To Her Highness stupid Marie and Anostoie. Thanks for thesnakck I rekon well befightin. M. A. Alexei. 1914."
Apparently Maria was included too.

Thanks, Andrea!
I would like to read it in russian. Translating code languages from another language is always very hard (my "translator voice" is speaking now!) so i wish i could have the sample in original russian - even if it would be hard to understand. Now i'm going to rack my brain in the effort to recreate something similar in italian for my novel. Uhm... hard work! I guess i'll have to spend some nights on it...

  As a follow-up:  IMO, what is most curious, both the former posters (one in March 2004 and the other in Jan. 2011) mentioned specifically the word "Tarabar," but do not comment on how the NAME was derived NOR a verifiably documented source of their information.  Thus HOW do we know the so-called name of this allegedly "code" language, so that two posters YEARS apart remark upon it?  Potential answer:  Perhaps they separately utilized a single and presently undefined source?  If so, that source's origin predates March, 2004. Who knows? One of history's little mysteries I suppose: terribly esoteric, and now truly a "dead language."                                                                                                Regards,  AP.

You're so right, AP - as usual. I wonder if the samples Holly spoke about would ever been published entirely?
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Talya on August 06, 2011, 02:49:36 PM
Thank you aleksandr pavlovich and Sunny !  Given their mother's use of codes,( like the heart code none can crack! ) and the last two children's closeness,  I would be surprised if they didn't have some private means  to communcate to each other ...by until there is some proof, it remains speculation

Heart code?! Did I miss something? Could someone PM me with this?

just an anecdote; me and 2 of my friends used to write codes in other languages. For example, if we wanted to say hello in English, we would write the characters in Russian, or our other language alphabet. Could Alexei and Anastasia and Maria have written English words in Russian script? That Anostoie could be the key to breaking the language. Are there any other examples of Tarabar?
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 06, 2011, 03:28:13 PM
Holly posted this a while ago in the "Just to put this out there--Romanov style" thread.
I've only seen it mentioned in one book that I can remember.

Maria, Anastasia and Alexei would use the coded language to write each other messages and exchange them secretly. It appears to me to just be a change in spellings and such.
Here's the only sample published so far:

"To Her Highness stupid Marie and Anostoie. Thanks for thesnakck I rekon well befightin. M. A. Alexei. 1914."
Apparently Maria was included too.

Stupid Maria AND stupid Anastasia or just stupid maria AND (not stupid) anastasia?
Poor Maria, always talking about her as a stupid!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: blessOTMA on August 06, 2011, 08:31:07 PM
author=blessOTMA link=topic=16714.msg491636#msg491636 date=1312613907]
....Given their mother's use of codes,( like the heart code none can crack! ) ...
 Heart code?! Did I miss something? 
in her 1913 diary entries  Olga usual says  something like " Mama's heart is 21/2 " or " Mama's heart a 3 " and it's difficult to know if the higher number means better or worse. It doesn't follow a pattern that is  easy to see. If fact there are often two numbers and a poster ( nena? ) suggested this might mean Olga is recordering how her mother's heart and legs are .....but lord knows
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Talya on August 07, 2011, 12:54:27 PM
Interesting....
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 08, 2011, 10:08:42 AM
Before I say anything else, I'd like to say how much the interview touched me, and GD Andrea, keep writing!

But anyway, I had not known that MAA had a secret language! Of course, with their knowledge of languages, it couldn't have been too hard to make one up. I only know English, and it would seem difficult for me to make up a language (Well, I have been studying French, but this is basically where I've gotton: Ou est la telephone? (Pronounced: Oo ay la tay-lay-phon) Where is the telephone? =D)!
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Sunny on August 08, 2011, 10:30:38 AM
mmm... telephone is french is masculine... LE telephone XD LOL
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 08, 2011, 04:06:54 PM
Oh, okay, if you say so! *Dries tears* (just kidding!)

Back to topic - was this secret language of MAA's just spoken, or was it written too?
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 08, 2011, 06:04:39 PM
       For "Olga Bernice" and your question on the "secret language":    I have gone back and (somewhat quickly) researched what now comprehensively appears to be the EARLIEST appearance of the so-called (invented) language name "Tarabar" on this Forum.
       In the thread," The Imperial children's sad,sheltered life?", Post # 93, Dec. 7, 2005,"  "Sarushka" says: "Slightly off-topic: does anybody know anything about the secret language Anastasia & Alexei invented?  I've got the name of it written down somewhere...."
       On the same day, in Post #96, December 7, 2005, she responds to a question from "Olga Anna" as follows:  "Anastasia & Alexei called their language 'Tarabar.' Unfortunately my notes don't say where I read this. I can promise that it was a non-fiction source though!" This then is followed (same thread) by Post #153, Jan. 31, 2006, in which "Tsarina Liz" shows the relevant quote from # 96 and comments on it.
       To my knowledge, "Tarabar" is next mentioned by name in Post # 718 of the thread, "Re: Just to put this out there.....Romanov Style"  by poster "Holly": "It was called Tarabar."  In response to another poster's comments, the poster,"Holly," on Jan. 17, 2011, replies in Post # 720: " I've only seen it in one book that I can remember."  The only extant written example (able to be quoted from the source) followed in the same posting, #720. (Unfortunately, a follow-up on the book's name was apparently never remembered and posted.)

       Therefore, in response to your question (August 8, 2011) of written versus spoken "Tarabar", only a single written alleged example has been posted on the Forum, to my knowledge.  Potentially, the 2 (or 3) youngest siblings would resort (on appropriate occasions) to a spoken version, but IMO it would have been very brief in nature. Still, we have no authoritatively documented source with which to refer. It would seem to be perhaps traceable to a single reference/source?
                                                                           Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 08, 2011, 06:36:12 PM
It would seem to be perhaps traceable to a single reference/source?

I don't know if either of these are the original source, but on the entire internet, the word "tarabar" only appears twice in relation to the Romanovs: A blog (http://anastasia1901.webs.com/thelifeofanastasia.htm) and some site about Paris, France (http://www.parisia.com/paris/romanov/paris.php?id=13)
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 08, 2011, 07:27:49 PM
It would seem to be perhaps traceable to a single reference/source?

I don't know if either of these are the original source, but on the entire internet, the word "tarabar" only appears twice in relation to the Romanovs: A blog (http://anastasia1901.webs.com/thelifeofanastasia.htm) and some site about Paris, France (http://www.parisia.com/paris/romanov/paris.php?id=13)

Thank you very much indeed for the above information.  I have looked at them both.  These are my impressions/reactions.

  I am certain that I know of the first poster, who is using a similiar, but different, name, and still resides in the same UK city.  She has been/is active on MANY boards as you can see. She apparently has the feelings that she is a (how shall I say this?) potential modern-day "recreation" of the Grandduchess Anastasia N. This can be seen, among other places, on the Forum "Web Amici" (early 2010) but petulantly retracts her "impression" when challenged there. The article posted by her to which you reference is, IMO, NOTHING like her own compositions in grammar and punctuation (having read a number of her postings over the years), and I personally think is copied, which is not in itself a problem, but NO attribution is given, thus "Tarabar," cannot IMO, be attributed in a historical, authoritative fashion. To sum it up, I'll "pass" on this one.

  The second article, though also interesting in mentioning the word "Tarabar," again gives no stated researchable attribution.  I do not know the "author."  

  I throughly understand that you are not vouching for the validity of either of these articles, but I DO appreciate your kindness in bringing them to my attention.  
                                                                                                 Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 08, 2011, 09:00:54 PM
Quote
...and I personally think is copied, which is not in itself a problem, but NO attribution is given, thus "Tarabar," cannot IMO, be attributed in a historical, authoritative fashion. To sum it up, I'll "pass" on this one.

The second article, though also interesting in mentioning the word "Tarabar," again gives no stated researchable attribution.  I do not know the "author." 

That is why I made a distinction between the two. A blog is only reliable to the extent that its claims are sourced. The other website seems to be a "real" website, meaning it is not a blog and appears professional, but since the author is unknown, no sources are listed, and we have absolutely no idea why a site about Paris even lists this information, I am inclined to think nether are necessarily reliable.

Quote
  I throughly understand that you are not vouching for the validity of either of these articles, but I DO appreciate your kindness in bringing them to my attention.

You're welcome! I searched on Blackle: "Tarabar" "Romanov" and "Tarabar" "Anastasia" (quotes are for exact searches) and only found those two.

Until somebody knows information they are certain about, let's end the Tarabar conversation, because it is unrelated to the thread title, takes up space on the board, and the same information is given over and over.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 08, 2011, 09:11:37 PM
It certainly appears that we have "plumbed the depths" of "Tarabar" in terms of the Forum and other presently available resources. I've no objection to closure, unless someone comes forward with provable source/s.  I have appreciated the opportunity to contribute.  Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: TsarAlexeiII on August 08, 2011, 11:00:13 PM
It certainly appears that we have "plumbed the depths" of "Tarabar" in terms of the Forum and other presently available resources. I've no objection to closure, unless someone comes forward with provable source/s.  I have appreciated the opportunity to contribute.  Regards,  AP.

Same here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Dust_of_History on August 09, 2011, 07:19:37 AM
      To my knowledge, "Tarabar" is next mentioned by name in Post # 718 of the thread, "Re: Just to put this out there.....Romanov Style"  by poster "Holly": "It was called Tarabar."  In response to another poster's comments, the poster,"Holly," on Jan. 17, 2011, replies in Post # 720: " I've only seen it in one book that I can remember."  The only extant written example (able to be quoted from the source) followed in the same posting, #720. (Unfortunately, a follow-up on the book's name was apparently never remembered and posted.) 

I think I can confirm this. I can't remember exactly but in one of the threads someone mentioned that Alexei and Anastasia used a secret language. Then I asked if someone knows the name of the language and I believe it was Holly who said it was "Tarabar". I have to say that I have my doubts. As there is so little information on Tarabar, I could imagine that they used it mostly verbally and rarely in writing with a very restricted vocabulary.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Talya on August 09, 2011, 01:02:24 PM
Who else would know about Tarabar? MAA, maybe Tatiana? I found a very odd letter from Alexei to Tatiana, I think it might be a code. (this is actually how it was written!)
For Tatiana! From Alexei (my addition 27 May 1917 in English)
Old Mother Hubbard
Went to the cupboard
To seek her poor doggie a bone
When she got there
The Cupboard was bare,
And so the poor doggie got none.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 09, 2011, 01:49:54 PM
Who else would know about Tarabar? MAA, maybe Tatiana? I found a very odd letter from Alexei to Tatiana, I think it might be a code. (this is actually how it was written!)
For Tatiana! From Alexei (my addition 27 May 1917 in English)
Old Mother Hubbard
Went to the cupboard
To seek her poor doggie a bone
When she got there
The Cupboard was bare,
And so the poor doggie got none.
 As to the speculation that it "might be a code": IMO, I would not allow too much to be read into this, a well-known child's nursery rhyme, dating from the very early 19th century. There are a number of other verses.
 IMO, this was undoubtedly written as an example of the Heir's attempt in English, probably copied from a book in English (as opposed to a translation since it "rhymes"). The use of the verb "seek" in the rhyme would to my mind, betray a British English-influenced origin, which given the circumstances of the Heir's origin/s of exposure to the English language, would be appropriate. (Parenthetically, most American children, I think, use "get" in relation to reciting this nursery rhyme.)      
 But now, even I (as interested in languages as I am) will admit that we are FAR off-topic of the subject heading.        AP.
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Talya on August 09, 2011, 11:36:58 PM
I came to the discussion late, but yeah it is. Can someone split the thread?
Title: Re: Dr Wladimir Derevenko and his son Kolya (Nikolai)
Post by: Inok Nikolai on February 17, 2012, 01:29:39 PM
There are two old threads in which parts of the interview were posted, on websites that are now inactive, so I have decided to post it here. The audio and video quality is mediocre, but it will do. Kolya died in 1999, and this interview was taken sometime in the 1990s, and was apparently featured as a promotional interview for the Romanovy: Ventsenosnaya Sem'ya, which was released in 2003.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DsS5EVu0-c

Nena generously translated a part of the interview:

I was a little boy, just 12 years old. I didn't know anything about people's evil. We lived in Popov house, very close to Ipatiev house. In the middle of summer 1918, I was afraid, and I was preoccupied about Alexei. I wanted to see him. And, I am sure, he wanted to see me. Until that sad day July 17, 1918. My father, Gilliard, Gibbes and others knew everything, but I knew nothing. Something terrible was going to happen, but I didn't know what....In the last week of July 1918, I , my father, Gilliard, Gibbes, etc. entered Ipatiev house. Terrible scene....House was in complete chaos; diaries, letters, albums, and other items were all around in house. 'But where is Leskela?' I asked my father, but I he didn't answer me. Leskela's diary was found by a White guard, I think his name was Nemetkin, I don't know. But Leonid Sednev....I saw him. He cried. His cried so aloud, so aloud!!!!!
I was confused. 'Papa, where is my Leskela?'-I asked.
'They killed him'. I then start to cry.
'But how?'
'They killed Tsar, Tsaritsa, and GDs also. All are dead."-said my father.
"I don't understand','where...where are bones'
'We don't know, maybe we'll never discover them'
I then perceive, life is brutal....I found Leskela's last letter written to me.Especially one sentence in that letter-'I hug you warmly'-made me so cry..I thought 'And I hug you warmly,too, my dear friend, my tsar...'
I was in shock. In latter years, I think just about him. 'Why did they killed you? In USSR, there is no space for my Leskela..We'l be forever friends, my  dear tsesarevich....I want to see you just ONE more time, and I can die in peace...


In letters, Alexei and Kolya would sign their names backwards, hence Ieskela.


I have been trying to track down and authenticate this interview for a few years now. Soon I hope to post here what I have found out so far.

Please be aware that the translated excerpt given above does *not* reflect the contents of the clip furnished here. That passage must have occurred elsewhere in the interview. Nena says that he cannot find that link now. I have prowled the Internet for more segments of the interview, but have only found this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQARa-o20UY&feature=plcp&context=C3cd8d8dUDOEgsToPDskIXGNGEVhJVP0OZdcKwjlNv

REQUEST: If any of you know of any other segments of this interview, or where it appears in its entirety, PLEASE let me know. Thank you!

Inok Nikolai

PS: I already have the six-part account of *how* it was made; but not the actual film footage. (More on that later.)