Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Other Imperial Palaces => Tsarskoe Selo Palaces => Topic started by: BobG on January 25, 2004, 01:29:43 PM

Title: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on January 25, 2004, 01:29:43 PM
Does anyone have any pictures of the "New" or "Lower" Palace at Peterhof?  It was the palace Nicholas and Alexander used when at Peterhof and was destroyed by the Soviets in the 50's.  I have been unable to find anything about the palace in any books or on the internet.  Any help would be appreciated. :D
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on January 25, 2004, 02:57:25 PM
As far as I know there has been only one book on the palace that was published in Russia before WWII and it was reprinted by the Peterhof Museum people about 8 years ago.  The original book was really only a pamphlet.  The picture quality isn't great either, and there are just a few.

Many pictures that previous authors have described as being of the Alexander Palace are actually of the Lower Palace at Peterhof.

There is also a good section on the Lower Palace in a Soviet book on architectural monuments in the environs of Leningrad.  I found a copy in Russia 10 years ago.

So - about the palace... it was originally a telegraph tower near the seashore.  In 1883-85 the architect Tomishko built a small datcha or pavillion  there.  In 1896 Nicholas II had it extensively expanded. After the revolution the palace became a museum. Here was kept the Imperial train that Nicholas abdicated in. before the war the palace was taken over by Soviet officials who used it as a residence.  During the war the palace was damaged.  In 1946-47 Stalin ordered the palace blown up.  The palace vanished from all maps and curators at Peterhof were forbidden to tell people where it was.  One curator was jailed for pointing out the location of the palace in the 50's to some tourists.

I climbed all through the ruins of the palace in the 80's and 90's.  It was an amazing place, full of the remains of blasted remains of china and furniture.  I remember once seeing an ikon of Aleksey and a bunch of burnt candles on top of one of the mounds that covered the palace site.  It was a wild place, overgrown with trees and vegetation.  The mosquitoes were awful there.  It was a dangerous place.

I heard a few years ago that there were plans to build a new datch there for the government, and I don't know what happened to that idea.

Things from the Lower Palace were sold after the museum closed.  You can find things from there in the antique stores of Petersburg today.  The Peterhof curators buy back what they can.  They have the grand piano from the palace in the Cottage now.

Bob

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lanie on January 25, 2004, 03:47:51 PM
I purchased a book called Nicholas II: The Imperial Family a year or so ago, published in 1998, and it talks about Peterhof and has old photographs from the rooms in the Lower Palace (I believe, I don't remember, I should go get it!) and even a reproduced fabric made to match this rose fabric that covered one of Alexandra's rooms.  If anyone's interested I wouldn't mind scanning them in! :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: David Newell on January 29, 2004, 11:16:41 AM
I have abook published by the Peterhof State Preserve in 1998 called Nicholas II, The Imperial Family. I bought this in hatchard's London. It has very good pictures of most of the rooms oft . The ISBN is 5-88810-013-7. Hope this helps. David he Dacha and original architects colur drawings of the Dacha
Quote
As far as I know there has been only one book on the palace that was published in Russia before WWII and it was reprinted by the Peterhof Museum people about 8 years ago.  The original book was really only a pamphlet.  The picture quality isn't great either, and there are just a few.

Many pictures that previous authors have described as being of the Alexander Palace are actually of the Lower Palace at Peterhof.

There is also a good section on the Lower Palace in a Soviet book on architectural monuments in the environs of Leningrad.  I found a copy in Russia 10 years ago.

So - about the palace... it was originally a telegraph tower near the seashore.  In 1883-85 the architect Tomishko built a small datcha or pavillion  there.  In 1896 Nicholas II had it extensively expanded. After the revolution the palace became a museum. Here was kept the Imperial train that Nicholas abdicated in. before the war the palace was taken over by Soviet officials who used it as a residence.  During the war the palace was damaged.  In 1946-47 Stalin ordered the palace blown up.  The palace vanished from all maps and curators at Peterhof were forbidden to tell people where it was.  One curator was jailed for pointing out the location of the palace in the 50's to some tourists.

I climbed all through the ruins of the palace in the 80's and 90's.  It was an amazing place, full of the remains of blasted remains of china and furniture.  I remember once seeing an ikon of Aleksey and a bunch of burnt candles on top of one of the mounds that covered the palace site.  It was a wild place, overgrown with trees and vegetation.  The mosquitoes were awful there.  It was a dangerous place.

I heard a few years ago that there were plans to build a new datch there for the government, and I don't know what happened to that idea.

Things from the Lower Palace were sold after the museum closed.  You can find things from there in the antique stores of Petersburg today.  The Peterhof curators buy back what they can.  They have the grand piano from the palace in the Cottage now.

Bob


Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on January 30, 2004, 09:12:44 PM
Hatchard's has such great books - when I used to go to London I'd always go by that small but wonderful royalty section... I am going to get that book... Thanks for telling us about it.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lanie on January 30, 2004, 11:00:19 PM
That's the book I was talking about, Bob--I got it off of a website called motka.com, and it is very popular on Ebay now-a-days. :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on January 31, 2004, 08:37:22 AM
After your post, I ordered the book on the web, and as you said it had a great discription and pictures of the Lower Dacha.  Thanks so much.
Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Katharina on February 06, 2004, 02:45:33 AM
Does anyone know what happened to the italian pavilion where Nicky and Alix scratched their names into a window pane in 1884? (See his diary)
What did this pavilion (or house as it is sometimes translated) look like?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: jda on February 06, 2004, 02:30:04 PM
The Italian Pavilion  was actually the Lower Palace  or Dacha.   It was built on orders of Alexander III  for Nicholas in1883-85 by architect Tomishko in the Italian Renaissance style.  Look in Peter Kurth"s book Tsar page 28 and the book Nicholas II by Abris Publishers page 38.        
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Katharina on February 16, 2004, 05:00:39 AM
Dear jda,
at first I didn't want to accept your answer: To me a pavilion is small building at street level or at most one-storeyed. Then I re-read the pages you mentioned and now everything makes sense. It's rather simple ...
Thanks so much

Katharina
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on February 16, 2004, 08:23:14 AM
The reason for the confusion is probably that the Lower Palace was greatly expanded by Nicholas II from the original structure.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on March 14, 2004, 09:02:30 PM
Hello all!

 That book is really wonderful!!
 Now, have anyone some floor plan of the palace??
I would like  to see if possible some photograph of the vestibule, Nicholas and Alexandra´s bedroom or any other that cannot be found on this book...
 By the way, i have a good photograph of the palace right after WWII and even if badly damaged was not in worse condition than the Grand Palace....

Thanks!!!!!
 
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on March 14, 2004, 09:24:57 PM
That is very interesting, Antonio - I have never seen pictures of the Lower Palace after the war - perhaps you can share it with us!

I am sure they have many great pictures at Peterhof.  The director there told me they had extensive documentation on the Lower Palace including photographs of all of the rooms.  That was 9 years ago.  From what I have seen Peterhof has been publishing some of what they have - they have really been making an effort to educate people on the Lower Palace and its history.

Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on March 14, 2004, 10:36:42 PM
 I´m very happy to share any photograph i could have, the only problem is that i´m not very good with computers...i could do a good digital copy on glossy paper and send it to some direction you tell me. That´s for me the easiest way, but if it is not possible i will tray to call for the help of some friend. Just tell me how should i do it.
The photograph comes from a very interesting book published for the tercentenary of Peterhof (1705-2005) full of photographs of the postwar period.
By the way, i found in a catalogue from the exhibiton "The Hermitage during the war of 1941-1945" a war-time photograph of aone of the showrooms of the museum full of non-evacuated furniture. You can see in the foreground to the right of the door on top of a crate on of the distinctive chairs from the grand duchesses´drawing room at the Lower Dacha (page 200, picture 229). í found it interesting since i like this palace and its interiors very much.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: M. Breheny on March 16, 2004, 07:55:32 PM
I have come across several photographs taken at the New Palace at Peterhof in Hugh Brewster's "Anastasia's Album."  There are pictures of the grand duchesses, Alexei, Anna V (on crutches). and Rita K. taken on the sandy beach behind the palace.  There also is a picture taken from one of the windows of the "tower" looking out over the beach area.  Some of these are poignant photos of young people having fun: chasing each other, laughing (Olga and Rita), playing with a goat (?) (Alexei), and wading in the water.  
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on March 30, 2004, 08:58:07 AM
Antonio:

It's intereresting you mention the Winter Palace since they have some furniture from the Lower Palace.  They have the corner cozy-corner from Olga's room that is seen in pictures of the family and a number of other things.  When they closed the Lower Palace down and dispersed everything the Winter Palace received a few things...  Why I don't know since the historical rooms of the family were closed down there in the 20's and most everything sold off.

Kuchumov told me some things from the AP could be found there that were in Art Nouveau style that one would have expected to have gone to Pavlovsk after the AP was shut down.

Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on March 30, 2004, 08:59:44 AM
BTW, Victoria of Milford haven had a lot of pictures of her family at the Lower Palace, including some pictures of Lord Mountbatton as a boy in front of it.

Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 09, 2004, 01:43:27 PM
Well, here is at last the photo. It´s very sad but still not as destroyed as have been reported to be...

(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/images/2004dacha.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 09, 2004, 02:06:59 PM
Quote
Antonio:

It's intereresting you mention the Winter Palace since they have some furniture from the Lower Palace.  They have the corner cozy-corner from Olga's room that is seen in pictures of the family and a number of other things.  


The three times i was in the Winter palace apartaments i saw some things from the Lower dacha baut not that cozy corner. I think it was in some exhibition in the EEUU. I saw that cozy-corner for the first time this last summer in Pavlovsk, it was at an exibition there in the second floor gallery that surrounds the Italian Hall.
Antonio.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on April 09, 2004, 02:32:06 PM
I just checked for some details on the cosy corner.

It was made for Olga's room and came from the furniture workshops of F.Meltzer.  It was designed by Roman Meltzer.  In 1933 it was transferred from the Lower Palace to the Hermitage.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 09, 2004, 10:52:34 PM
I wonder why this essential piece of that room´s furniture was taken from the Lower dacha before wwii. Was the Lower dacha closed as a museum in that year?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on April 10, 2004, 10:47:37 PM
Antonio your photo is fascinating !!!! The distinction of the walls is just like the original photos with that !  Did you get closer to it or walk around inside?

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 10, 2004, 11:17:03 PM
Hello Joanna,
I would wish this palace were in the state shown in the photograph...Sadly it´s not. The palace was in fact finally destroyed in soviet times and just imagine why...I have a lot of photographs from the last summer and yes, i got very close, even doing what my friend calls "stupid photographs" (close up images of stones and so on). There were flowers left in memory of the family from Alexey´s birthday, and (this i try as far as i can to hid from the camera) worse things like debris, bottles,etc,etc...
What amazed me of this place was the following: surely you´ve seen some photographs showing the family in the seashore and have noticed the big stones that used to be bordering this seashore. There´s particularly one in which Nicholas is seated in one of them(Romanovs:love, power and tragedy;page 314).
Well, these stones are still right there, hidden behind vegetation(?).
An insignificant detail, i know, but i love this kind of details...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 12, 2004, 07:59:09 AM
Is it true that at the Peterhof Museum Complex are now several artifacts that were once on Nicky's train? I'd be so grateful for any information!!!:)

Antonio - thanks so much for posting the photo!

Best wishes,
Elisa
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on April 12, 2004, 09:36:32 AM
Yes, they saved many things from the train - a Faberge ashtray from the train frequently travels about.

Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: David_Newell on April 12, 2004, 09:40:16 AM
Antonio these details make it all worth while

David Newell, london
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 12, 2004, 09:41:48 AM
Hello Elisa!
It´s true, Peherhof museum has as far as i know a lot of things that were saved from the lower palace and the imperial train. They have the photographs and designs for the lower palace,furniture, fabrics from the rooms, Alix´s dresses...Other thins like the furniture from Olga´s drawing room are in the Hermitage.
Antonio.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobAtchison on April 12, 2004, 09:49:30 AM
Antonio - just to add to what you said - a few years ago when I was there at Peterhof they showed me the Grand Piano of the Lower Palace that they had just recently found in Petersburg and purchased - it still had its palace tags on it.  They had also just found and purchased a marble carving from the Maple Room at the AP of Tatiana as a baby.

Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 12, 2004, 10:06:00 AM
Quote
Antonio these details make it all worth while

David Newell, london


David,
When i first went to the lower palace i followed the footpath bordering the sea. From this place the ruins are hidden behind some trees and bushes. I only had seen the old photographs and had no idea of how would i found it. Then,jumping over some little irrigation channel(?) i saw a fragment of glimmering red and yellow bricks amidst the greenery...I realized i was there. No matter what remains because i could close the eyes and see it all as it was, or climb up the place were formerly the tower was and watch to the sea. This sea,as well as the grey-blue sky, is the same it was 90 years ago, some things will never change.
It´s definitely worth while...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 12, 2004, 10:13:36 AM
Quote
Antonio - just to add to what you said - a few years ago when I was there at Peterhof they showed me the Grand Piano of the Lower Palace that they had just recently found in Petersburg and purchased - it still had its palace tags on it.  They had also just found and purchased a marble carving from the Maple Room at the AP of Tatiana as a baby.

Bob


This is just great!!!!
Cannot believe that all thse things were simply put on sale in Petersburg...it cannot be only money what they looked for selling these things, i think it was also done to erase the imperial family from the people mind.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 12, 2004, 02:42:23 PM
I am thrilled to hear about what has been found, the Grand Piano, the marble sculpture, this is so great!!!!
How touching that parts of the palace are coming back...+

Thanks for the information!

Elisa :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on April 12, 2004, 08:59:04 PM
Hello Antonio !

I am in awe of your comment "...I saw a fragment of glimmering red and yellow bricks admist the greenery..." !!!!  Was this the color of the palace? I have only seen black and white photographs and now I am intrigued especially as the walls have a very distinctive pattern.

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 21, 2004, 08:30:34 PM
Quote
Hello Antonio !

I am in awe of your comment "...I saw a fragment of glimmering red and yellow bricks admist the greenery..." !!!!  Was this the color of the palace? I have only seen black and white photographs and now I am intrigued especially as the walls have a very distinctive pattern.

Joanna


Hello Joanna,

Yes, the palace was made of several materials of different colors. The basement level was made of pink granite blocks very similars to those bordering Petersburg´s enbarkments. The ground floor had grey Putilovo slabs and the rest of the palace was made of red terra cotta and high quality and glimmering yellow bricks. These two colors alternated as horizontal strips. The facade details such as columns, balaustrades and so on were of grey sandstone.
In a sunny summer day the palace must have been quite impressive in spite of its reduced size, the tower being an essential feature of Alexandria Park right up to the WWII.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Sarai on April 22, 2004, 08:02:57 AM
I find that photograph of the ruined palace so moving and sad, as I remember that this was the place where all of the children after Olga were born (although I read that Tatiana was born at the "Farm Palace"). I look at this picture and in my mind imagine the flurry of activity occuring in this place on those days when the children were born, and the sheer exhiliration of the family on that magical summer day when the heir was born right in that old, crumbled building...

To think that a place where such joyous and important events in the life of this family occured was reduced to such a state and now no longer even exists and has been reduced to a pile of rubble! Bits and pieces of objects connected with the family's life lay hidden in the tall grass. How sad indeed that so many of these special places connected with the family were destroyed.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Forum Admin on May 05, 2004, 05:33:27 PM
Elisa, and everyone,
We want to keep this site "commercial" free, so please refrain from posting items for sale on ebay or elsewhere on the web. Once we "open the door" there is not stopping it. So, please understand why your post was removed. THANKS
FA
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: elisa_1872 on May 06, 2004, 05:20:29 AM
Forum A!

I had no idea! Please accept my apologies!!!!

Elisa
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on May 16, 2004, 07:41:31 PM
In Nicholas & Alexandra The Family Albums by Prince Michael of Greece there is a photo on page 69 with a caption "1908 Tsarskoye Selo - Rasputin with the Empress ..."

This photo is next to one of Alexandra that I have identified as her boudoir in the Peterhof palace. Then follows photos in the AP. I was curious what room this was in the Yale Album. Comparing it with the book's photo, the wallpaper is similar and the light style of white furniture. I have read and cannot now remember the source that the Rasputin photo was taken at Peterhof. Can anyone confirm? And was this the dressing room of the Grand Duchess' in Peterhof as the towel drying stand is maybe a clue?

Joanna

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 16, 2004, 07:58:21 PM
Hello Joanna,
The first photograph in Album 5, page 38, was taken in Alexey´s reception room in the Lower Palace. The second photograph was taken in the Empress´ drawing room in this same palace(not the pink drawing room but a different study).
The photograph of Rasputin in page 69 of Michael of Greece´s book i think could have been taken in one of the lady in waiting´s rooms,( may be that of maria Vishniakova?)
Of course i haven´t seen all the rooms of the Lower palace but what i´ve seen has a different style. It´s definitely not one of the grand duchesses´private rooms in that palace. In my humble opinion the room is similar to those used by the ladies in waiting in the Alexander Palace, but Bob have the last word on that.
I hope he can help you.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 16, 2004, 08:25:51 PM
Just to add that photograph of Rasputin with the family in page 68 of Michael of Greece´s book was taken in Alexey´s classroom of the Lower palace. The wall fabric is the same, as well as the two kind of chairs that were in this room (in the right side of the photograph you can see one of the chairs and a fragment of the other´s back)

By the way, as a detail, the fabric of Alexey´s reception room in the Lower palace had blue flowers. The effect was quite lovelier than can be seen in the old black and white photographs.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on May 16, 2004, 09:06:02 PM
Many many thanks Antonio! You are fantastic !!!!

Was the photo on page 75 in Prince Michael's book with Maria and Anastastia under the table also taken in Aleksei's classroom? It is lovely to know the color of the blue flowers of the wallpaper!

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 16, 2004, 09:12:12 PM
You have read my mind Joanna!
I was to tell you right now. Yes, that photograph was taken in that same room.
You will find many mistakes like this one in almost every book. For example, in Michael of Greece´s book, page 28, there´s a photograph of Nicholas that is supposed to be taken in Peterhof. In fact that photograph was taken in the corner drawing room of the Empress, in the Winter palace. Another detail, Serov´s famous portrait of the Emperor was in that room, to the left of the fireplace.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: elisa_1872 on May 17, 2004, 03:54:47 PM
I wonder, does anyone know exactly where abouts were located the panes that young Alix and Nicky signed at Peterhof, as detailed in the Kurth book, what room they were in, whereabouts at Peterhof?

Elisa
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 17, 2004, 04:55:52 PM
Hello Elisa,
The panes should be in the old building of the Lower Palace(then named the Italian House or Villa Baboon). They wrote their names in May 31th of 1884, well before the house was enlarged. Nicholas wrote it was in a "rear window"...but do not know the room.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Daniel Briere on June 14, 2004, 12:01:39 AM
Hi Johanna and others,

The photo on the MSN site is of the WEST side, not the east. Seaside is on the left, where the tower is. I’m not sure to which Anna V. album you are refering to, but I have seen some photos wrongly identified as taken at Alexandria: This is the case in “Anastasia’s Album” which M. Breheney mentioned here. Those beach front photos were not taken in Peterhof but on the Black Sea Coast in Eupatoria dring the trip the I.F. made to Crimea in May 1916 with Anna V. (not in 1915 as this book says)...

If you want some fabulous never before published colour drawings (by architect Tomishko)  :o  and black and white photos of the Alexandria Palace, try to find the companion book to the exhibition held in Peterhof about the I.F. The English edition, printed in 1998 under the title of “Nicholas II, the Imperial Family” (it can sometimes be found on a site we can’t mention here… :-X ). Lanie and David have already told this nice book. There are some detailed information about the Palace, 8 B&W photos of the interior taken in the 1920-30s (most of which I had never seen before  :o), and a colour photo of the lovely upholstery fabric from the Drawing Room of the Empress (pink and red roses)  :).

Lanie has offered to scan the photos. I will try to post more information about the Alexandria Palace from this book an other sources soon!.

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: NAAOTMA on June 28, 2004, 11:43:53 PM
When one looks at the map of the Peterhof grounds, on the sea, just left of The Cottage is a spit of land-that is the site of the New Palace, is it not? Thanks in advance, Melissa K.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Greg_King on June 29, 2004, 02:38:16 AM
Quote
When one looks at the map of the Peterhof grounds, on the sea, just left of The Cottage is a spit of land-that is the site of the New Palace, is it not? Thanks in advance, Melissa K.


Yes-there's a slight curve to the shoreline below the Cottage Palace, and where the spit of land curves up to the point at the right is where the Lower Palace stood.

Greg King
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: NAAOTMA on June 30, 2004, 11:44:27 AM
Thank you for the confirmation! I really appreciate it. It is something I am so interested in seeing this summer. Melissa
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 07, 2004, 12:13:13 PM
Hello All,

I keep meaning to scan these photos in to share, but time seems to have slipped by ever so fast!

New Palace at Peterhof
Reception Room/Drawing Room of Alexandra Feodorovna
(http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/LP_AF_Reception.jpg)

Fabric from said room:
(http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/Fabric_LPAF_Reception.jpg)

Source: Nicholas II The Imperial Family. St. Petersburg: Abris, 2004.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 07, 2004, 12:48:26 PM
New Palace at Peterhof
Reception/Drawing Room of the Grand Duchesses, along with color prints of some of the furniture that was located in the room!

(http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/LP_GDReception_Final.jpg)



Source: Nicholas II The Imperial Family. St. Petersburg: Abris, 2004.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lisa on August 07, 2004, 04:41:55 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/pterhof.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 07, 2004, 08:36:35 PM
Seeing Amy's photo of the corner sofa reminded me that I have it in my book also and I now understand what it was when Bob and Antonio wrote of "cozy corner". I had seen this corner sofa at the Winter Palace and had thought that it was part of Alexandra's rooms there. How I do adore this forum and all here who share incredible information that I never knew of before!

And many many thanks Lisa for this amazing enlargement of the desk with your identifying photos! I am in awe how you do this!

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 07, 2004, 10:46:14 PM
Some new photos of the Lower Palace:

The first is taken to show the rarely seen view towards the Cottage, which is at some distance behind the trees.

The second shows some of the service buildings of the palace that survived, it seems, the WWII. Anyway, there´s a fence and entrance is forbidden...

The third is for those interested in what would be the view like from Nicholas´study.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/tsarskoyeselo/peterhof1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: standart on August 07, 2004, 11:01:45 PM
Antonio,
Thank you for posting these. It is both sad and wonderful to see what remains of such an historic place.
What a beautiful view from Nicholas' study. It must have been hard to get any work done with a distraction like that. :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lisa on August 08, 2004, 04:11:03 AM
Antonio, thank you for posting these incredible and beautifull photos! I alredy was at Peterhof, but I wasn't enought time to see this place...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Louise on August 08, 2004, 09:16:27 AM
Super pictures!. I can't remember if it was posted on this thread, but why would the Soviets destroy that palace, and forbid anyone from knowing about it?

Louise
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 08, 2004, 10:27:55 AM
Quote
Super pictures!. I can't remember if it was posted on this thread, but why would the Soviets destroy that palace, and forbid anyone from knowing about it?

Louise


Hello Louise,

The palace was damaged during the WWII. However, as you can see in the photo taken right after the war, its condition was far better than we see today. In fact the Great palace was almost in worst condition. I understand the were priorities about which palace should be restored first but, they should have taken the proper measures to prevent any further destruction and preserve what was left of the building (and that was really a lot).

I think they(the soviet authorities) were happy to see it destroyed. The communist did not restore anything related to Nicholas and Alexandra simply to try and erase their memory from the russian people minds. What was left of the Lower palace was actually destroyed in the 1950s or 60s. On the contrary they preserved the Farm palace´s main surviving structure for the future restoration. Nowadays the Farm palace is being restored and we´ll see it restored soon, i hope.

Many people say the Lower palace is beyond restoration. I understand this point of view from the perspective of the european laws of restoration. However, in Russia nothing is beyond restoration, and this palace could be perfectly restored following the preserved plans, original designs, numerous photographs, sample fabrics, etc... Also there is a lot of furniture from this palace in Peterhof, not only those oftenly pieces from the Hermitage museum, like the cozy corner and so on.

The only problem( and quite a big problem it is) i find is the lack of funds. Notwithsatnding, in the last few years i´ve seen so many things restored or under restoration in Peterhof...the parks, the bath pavillion, the station, the Tsaritsin and Olguin pavillions... and the always controversial restoration of the nearby Strelna Palace...

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Louise on August 08, 2004, 10:36:52 AM
Great and thank you for the explanation!!

Louise
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 08, 2004, 01:20:55 PM
Wow! We're really filling out this thread! Thanks for the close-up picture, lisa.  And Antonio, muchas gracias for the photos of the ruins. I spent two days at Peterhof, but wasn't able to figure out how to get over to that location. Drat!  

FYI- For anyone who is going to visit Peterhof and wants to see the ruins of the LP (#62):  
Alexandria Park is a different park from Peterhof.  I think, but I'm convinced, that there is an entrance from the Peterhof complex, but to access this you have to leave Peterhof and walk through the town and hope this gate is open!   Another way to access Alexandria is to get there through the town of Strelna, the main entrance is along the main "highway".  There's also one other super secret entrance that involves wading in the water to get around the park enclosure...but use this entrance at your own risk! From the map it looks like there's an entrance to the Alexandria Park from inside Peterhop, but this is a lie. When I was there it was very closed, weeds-growing-eveywhere-closed!

The link I'm providing below is for a map and a key for Peterhof and Alexandria Park.  Sorry for the wacky page, but I couldn't figure out how to override the stupid wizard.  The key is at the top of the page and the map is at the bottom!

Let me know if the map seems too small. I'm working on a 17 inch monitor and it looks fine to me, but I'd like to know if it's a problem for people with smallers screens b/c I can adjust it to a larger size.

Here's the link:Please note: Updated Map and slight URL change!
http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/peterhof.html

Amy
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on August 08, 2004, 03:15:44 PM
Great map, but some of the numbers are difficult to make out.  Can you make it a bit larger?

Scott
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 08, 2004, 05:38:38 PM
My many many thanks Antonio! Your photos of the ruins and view is to many of us something we thought we would never see. It is special to me to know that you and others stood in that spot in remembrance.

Do you think of the view from Nicholas' study that the Gulf of Finland has receded and c1900's the water was closer to the palace? Also do you know what the service buildings were used for?

Joanna

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 08, 2004, 05:54:38 PM
OH MY many thanks Amy for this fabulous detailed map and legend! Was the road just south of the Gothic Chapel the one that was closed and weed covered? Do you know how the rescue station is reached? Is the entrance to visit the Cottage through #57? Can you not follow the road path from the Cottage?

Also I am lost on #61 House of Konstantin. It looks small to be for a member of the family so I am wondering if it is named after a faithful courtier or servant.

I adore your map! Amy do you have similar map for Tsarskoye Selo  :)

Joanna

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 08, 2004, 07:06:24 PM
Hey, Amy!

It´s the very same map i bought in Peterhof right after reaching the seashore. There was a little shop close to the quay(?).

And Joanna, the sea is quite close to the palace, what happens is that it seems to be far because of the vegetation(another strange word i use for not knowing the proper one! :-[ ) growing in the seashore...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 08, 2004, 08:10:26 PM
Hi Antonio,

Then the Gulf of Finland has tides similar to what I know in Brittany no? The tide was out when you took the photo? Were the large stones that you wrote of part of this photo but hidden with vegetation? In one photo I have seen there is a circular garden path and then what appear as two parallel silons that jut out to the Gulf. Could you see these silons?

Many thanks for all these lovely details that I adore! Oh and do you Antonio have any maps similar like Amy's of Tsarskoye Selo  :)

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 09, 2004, 09:00:14 AM
Quote
Hi Antonio,

Then the Gulf of Finland has tides similar to what I know in Brittany no? The tide was out when you took the photo? Were the large stones that you wrote of part of this photo but hidden with vegetation? In one photo I have seen there is a circular garden path and then what appear as two parallel silons that jut out to the Gulf. Could you see these silons?

Many thanks for all these lovely details that I adore! Oh and do you Antonio have any maps similar like Amy's of Tsarskoye Selo  :)

Joanna


Hello Joanna,

Yes, the stones were hidden with vegetation. Here you have a plan of Tsarskoe. Sorry for the delay but yesterday i was unable to access photobuck. I had to decide which part of the plan would you like the best and thought that the park was already enough reproduced and tried to show more of the city. Hope this helps you...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/tsarskoyeselo/tsarskoemap.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Greg_King on August 09, 2004, 09:44:58 AM
Very interesting photos, Antonio, and very different than the last time I was there-all of my pictures of the Lower Palace then show it completely concealed in a grove of trees, overgrown with weeds and vines, to the point where it was impossible to follow the foundations.  I'm glad to see that the clump of trees that fringed its southern side, separating it from the lower road and open meadow to the Cottage Palace, have been removed and that the area has been cleaned up.

Thanks for posting them.

Greg King
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 09, 2004, 10:58:55 AM
Quote
Was the road just south of the Gothic Chapel the one that was closed and weed covered?


South being a relative term, yes.  ;) Here's a picture of what this gate looked like in July:

(http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/Gate.jpg)


And below this text is a photo of a sign that was near this gate. I can't read it, but maybe someone here who reads cyrillic can translate it? It *might* reveal why this gate is closed or it might be as simple as a message that reads, "stupid tourists, go home!"  ;)  

(http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/WackySign.jpg)

Quote
Do you know how the rescue station is reached?


I don't know! I've never heard of this location.

Quote
Is the entrance to visit the Cottage through #57?Can you not follow the road path from the Cottage?


Yes, the main entrance to the Alexandria Park is #57 and if you enter through this gate you should be able to follow the pathways to the LP.  My problem was we were in the Peterhof complex... There's also one other gate, but I can't verify that this gate is open. It's located just "North-West" from the Gothic Cathedral.


Quote
Also I am lost on #61 House of Konstantin. It looks small to be for a member of the family so I am wondering if it is named after a faithful courtier or servant.


I don't know the answer to this question either! Sorry!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Mike on August 09, 2004, 11:25:12 AM
The board reads:
The Lower Park's Maintenance Area
... and then a detailed explanation how the mowed grass, dropped-down leaves and cut-off branches eventually produced a fine natural fertilizer for Peterhof plants - which lacked them on a coastal unfertile soil.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 09, 2004, 12:06:56 PM
Quote
The board reads:
The Lower Park's Maintenance Area ...


Cool! Thank you! I really appreciate you translating it because not knowing what is said was driving me a little batty!

I'm off to resize, and possibly enhance, the park map
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Janet_Ashton on August 09, 2004, 01:35:44 PM
Quote
OH
Also I am lost on #61 House of Konstantin. It looks small to be for a member of the family so I am wondering if it is named after a faithful courtier or servant.


The house is certainly small, but it IS actually named for a member of the family. This was the former guardhouse, refurbished by Stakenschneider circa 1841 for the second son of Nicholas I, Konstantin Nikolaievich, then aged 14. It is also known as the Admiral's house in his honour (he being destined for a career in the Navy). Other service buildings were also redesigned at the same time for his brothers Nikolai and Mikhail, as schoolrooms.

Janet
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 09, 2004, 07:33:30 PM
My many many thanks Antonio for the map of Tsarskoye Selo! Although this thread is of Peterhof, I am thrilled to see this map! Do you see that Anna Vyrubova's house is made same color as the palaces? From research I understood that the house was part of the Imperial property and I believe this is another confirmation. I must still find who was her rent payable to.

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 09, 2004, 07:36:12 PM
Many many thanks Amy for the details to my questions and Janet for the clarification of House of Konstantin! Did anyone ever visit this house and has photos?

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 09, 2004, 07:44:33 PM
Quote
My many many thanks Antonio for the map of Tsarskoye Selo! Although this thread is of Peterhof, I am thrilled to see this map! Do you see that Anna Vyrubova's house is made same color as the palaces? From research I understood that the house was part of the Imperial property and I believe this is another confirmation. I must still find who was her rent payable to.

Joanna


Hello Joanna!

The house is in the same color because this color designates the architectural monuments in the plan. I think the house was not an imperial property. I think Anna spoke about that in her memoirs....

Also, we´re going off the topic, so i promise to post any other non-lower palace information in its right place :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 09, 2004, 08:14:14 PM
Antonio, I don't know if anyone else noticed it, but the map you posted is upside down  :)  

baller link=board=other_Palaces;num=1075070804;start=50#63 date=08/09/04 at 09:00:14]

Hello Joanna,

Yes, the stones were hidden with vegetation. Here you have a plan of Tsarskoe. Sorry for the delay but yesterday i was unable to access photobuck. I had to decide which part of the plan would you like the best and thought that the park was already enough reproduced and tried to show more of the city. Hope this helps you...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/tsarskoyeselo/tsarskoemap.jpg)
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 09, 2004, 08:55:50 PM
Hey Helen! You´re true :)

I didn´t notice it...i scanned the plan as i´m used to see Tsarskoe, as if you were reaching the city by car or train from Petersburg...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 10, 2004, 03:46:37 PM
Quote
Great map, but some of the numbers are difficult to make out.  Can you make it a bit larger?
Scott


I didn't make the map larger, but I *did* change the size and color of numbers.  I hope this helps!

Here's the new URL:
http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/peterhof.html
Amy
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on August 10, 2004, 05:29:21 PM
Amy,

Thanks.  I can see the numbers much better now.  By the way, what is the building, without a number, on the shore and about three inches (on the map) to the right of the Lower Palace ruins?

Scott
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Amy on August 10, 2004, 06:01:53 PM
Quote
Amy,

By the way, what is the building, without a number, on the shore and about three inches (on the map) to the right of the Lower Palace ruins?

Scott


I'm sorry. I don't know for sure. I think, but I'm not positive, that it's the second photo in post#51 from Antonio_P.Caballer. If I understood correctly this building was a service building during N&A's time, but Antonio will have to confirm this.

Amy
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on August 10, 2004, 06:28:57 PM
Scott,
On the Tickets to Russia Web site, which has great maps, I believe the building is shown as a rescue station.  Probably used today for those on the Gulf of Finland.
http://www.ticketsofrussia.ru/maps/peter2640.html
Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 11, 2004, 06:43:34 PM
Quote

I'm sorry. I don't know for sure. I think, but I'm not positive, that it's the second photo in post#51 from Antonio_P.Caballer. If I understood correctly this building was a service building during N&A's time, but Antonio will have to confirm this.

Amy


Hello Scott and Amy,

The house to the right of the Lower Palace ruins is not the service building of my photograph. The service buildings were to the left of the palace, quite close, and do not appear in this plan.

The house to the left i saw, but it was surounded by a fence. It was similar to a victorian cottage. I tried to get closer and take photographs, but then i found one of those wonderfully kind russian "cujo-type" dogs that kept barking loudly till we were some miles off the house :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on August 11, 2004, 08:36:39 PM
Hi Antonio,

If the Rescue Station is of the victorian cottage style then it must have been there c1900's rather than later built as that would have a more utilitarian style. I wonder what the use of this building was during Nicholas' reign or prior. Does anyone have any information?

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on September 21, 2004, 02:03:59 PM
Quote
Here's the link:Please note: Updated Map and slight URL change!
http://home.comcast.net/~kidwells/peterhof.html


In an interview to Sankt-Peterburgskiye Vedomosti by Mikhail Borisovich of the Hermitage on May 27, 2004, one of the architectural monuments proposed for sale by the St. Petersburg administration is "The Private Dacha palace and park ensemble (Petrodvorets)". Can anyone identify on Amy's map which palace it may be? Is it possibly the Farm Palace?

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 04, 2004, 06:42:28 AM
Joanna

The Private Dacha is the palace of emperor Alexander II. But it is not the Farm Palace. You can`t see it on Amy's map because there is big distance between this palace and the Alexandria park(some km from the right side of Amy's map). During WWII the palace was destroyed, but in 1950s-1960s was reconstructed (with new interiors) and used as a rest house.
There are only two small books about the Private Dacha:
1. Bolsheva K. Peterhof. The palace-museum "The Private Dacha".- M.-L., 1931.
2. Gushchin V.A. The Private Dacha.- SPb., 1997.
There are also some papers.
You can see the Private Dacha and the park here (first 9 pics): http://www.enlight.ru/camera/114/index.html

Vladimir, St. Petersburg.

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on October 04, 2004, 07:56:27 AM
Many many thanks Vladimir for the clarification of the Private Dacha. Seeing Peter's photos from your link, I now understand it is Sergievka. I have other documents on Sergievka and Znamenka which I still must to read of my translations but never associated this as the Private Dacha!

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on October 04, 2004, 08:41:26 AM
Joanna,
From Coryne Hall's Little Mother of Russia:
   "Although most sources state that Dagmar and Sasha spent the (wedding) night at the Anitchkov Palace in St. Petersburg, local historians say that in fact they went to a rococo villa two miles from Peterhof.  Known locally as 'My Property', it was the privately owned dacha of the Tsar and had been built by Stakenschneider in the reign of Nicholas I."
I think it is about two miles closer to St. Petersburg.
Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 04, 2004, 09:19:29 AM
Joanna,
I don`t agree with the author of this link. He took many good pics (big job!), but sometimes he did mistakes in the history. Private Dacha and Sergievka - two different palace-and-park complexes. I think it will be better if I try to draw a schematic of St. Petersburg suburbs.
Bob - two miles far from St. Petersburg.

Vladimir.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on October 04, 2004, 11:44:30 AM
Black Cat

In one of the photos taken at the Private Palace you can see a black cat.  This appears to be what is known as a "Russian Black".  They are the sweetest and most intelligent cats.... we have one and he's a real tiger.

Douglas :D

His name is 'Coal'....and also"Dar-Ling"...he has two names.  I'll post his picture later.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Mike on October 04, 2004, 12:18:32 PM
Quote
This appears to be what is known as a "Russian Black".  They are the sweetest and most intelligent cats...

In Russia, where all cats - even Siamese - are Russian by definition, this kind is known as "Siberian cat". Intelligent they are, and can be very nice and playful - when not in their claws-practicing mood.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on October 04, 2004, 08:53:06 PM
Quote
Private Dacha and Sergievka - two different palace-and-park complexes.


Many thanks Vladimir for your help on my confusion! I need to review my translation of Sergievka but now I understand it is a separate estate.

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 05, 2004, 06:48:59 AM
Rescue Station is the Forteguard. This was built in 1895 by architect A.I. Semenov. Full name of this building - the Forteguard near the mole (embankment) of sea arbour. (Because on the end of the mole small arbour was bult in 1839 by arcitect A.I. Stakenshneider.)  
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 05, 2004, 07:10:43 AM
The former Forteguard and today the Rescue Station:

http://crazy-2.narod.ru/petrodvor/P-APark/Kzdanie.htm
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 05, 2004, 07:51:37 AM
House of Konstantin today:
http://crazy-2.narod.ru/petrodvor/P-APark/DKonstan.htm

It looks small really and Konstantin said about it in his memoirs.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on October 05, 2004, 09:09:14 AM
Quote
Joanna,
I don`t agree with the author of this link. He took many good pics (big job!), but sometimes he did mistakes in the history. Private Dacha and Sergievka - two different palace-and-park complexes. I think it will be better if I try to draw a schematic of St. Petersburg suburbs.
Bob - two miles far from St. Petersburg.

Vladimir.


Vladimir,
Thanks for helping me with the direction. I guess the Private Dacha and Sergievka are closer to Oranienbaum/Lomonosov.  I agree that the Private Dacha (belonging to Alexander II) is a different estate than Sergievka (belonging to the Leuchtenberg side of the family).  My understanding from the attached link (in Russian) is that they are adjacent to one another, so it is possible for the Wandering Camera to be confused about it.  It would still be great if you could draw the map showing these palaces in relation to one another.
Thanks,
Bob

http://al-spbphoto.narod.ru/prig/sergievka.html
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 05, 2004, 10:37:59 AM
1. Strelna. Konstantinovskij Palace and Park. Now - the museum and The "Palace of Congresses" state complex.
http://www.strelna.ru/en/
http://www.konstantinpalace.com/

2. The Strelna Travel Palace. Now - the museum - the part of Pererhof palace-and-park complex.
http://www.peterhof.org/museums/strelny/

3. Mihajlovka. Now - the rest house.  It was closed on the reconstruction in this year.

4. Znamenka. Now - the rest house.
http://znamenka.narod.ru/Rooms.htm

5. Alexandria. Now - the part of Pererhof palace-and-park complex.
http://www.peterhof.org/parks/ind10.html

6. The Alexandrijskij Park. Don`t  jumble it with Alexandria.

7. The Lower Park. Now - the part of Pererhof palace-and-park complex.
http://www.peterhof.org/parks/ind2.html

8. The Upper Gardens. Now - the part of Pererhof palace-and-park complex.
http://www.peterhof.org/parks/ind1.html

9. The Kolonistskij Park with Tzaritzyn and Olgin pavillions. Now - under the restoration for Pererhof palace-and-park complex.

10. The Lugovoj Park with Belveder Palace. Now - private golf club.
http://www.belveder.ru/index.php?lang=english

11. The English Park. Now - the park with ruins of English Palace.

12. The Park of Oldenburgskij`s Farm. Now - the summer camp.

13. The Private Dacha. Now - for sale.

14. Sergievka. Now - Biological scientific institute.

(http://fountains.narod.ru/draw1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on October 05, 2004, 07:30:25 PM
This is fantastic Vladimir! To see the estates in relation to their location to each other and with the highway and railway gives a clearer understanding to me.

The Lugovoj Park with Belveder Palace is new to me and is another that I have passed by without knowing what it was. Do you know which of the Imperial family lived there?

Many many thanks
Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vladimir_V. on October 07, 2004, 02:10:34 AM
Joanna

Belveder isn`t a palace exactly. It`s a big pavilion. Belveder was built in 1853-1856 by A.I. Stakenshneider for Nicholas I (died 1855). Alexander II used Belveder for the assignations with his young love-mate (then second wife) Ekaterina Dolgorukaya (Yur`evskaya). Here she first gave herself to Alexander II on July 1, 1866.  
Belveder was restored after WWII and used as a rest house. New restoration was made in 2000-2003.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on February 08, 2005, 08:21:24 PM
To add to Antonio's incredible photographs of the Lower Palace, here also are amazing recent close-up views of the ruins:

http://zarazza.dyndns.org/viewalbum.php?a=album13 (http://zarazza.dyndns.org/viewalbum.php?a=album13)

And a transliteral translation of an article by Tatyana Kolesnikov on what parts survived to aid in the restoration:

"...All fragments were not taken away. And that is good experts say. Clearing of blockages began at the end of July and already now it is visible, that scientists are seeing the big opening. Forty years on a place of the Lower Palace, the heap of bricks and fragments of old walls was visible only. But after two weeks of work - also appeared, that the base and even a ground floor below survived. Ahead for restorers still it is a lot of work and what also can be found inside ruins of the blown up building nobody knows. They do not represent the rests of a spiral staircase, door handles and loops of material value, but will help experts to recreate shape of a palace. The most part of a building should be built anew, but many elements were not badly damaged..."

http://www.spbtv.ru/?cat=news&key=2179&action=show_print

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Sarai on February 21, 2005, 01:50:01 PM
Joanna,
Thank you very much for the links to the pictures of the ruins. They are indeed amazing, and so haunting. It is remarkable that these ruins have been just lying there in such disarray for so many years and that they haven't been cleaned up by now. Although it makes it all the more poignant and interesting to see the actual ruins rather than an empty field.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 04, 2005, 11:36:06 AM
Can anyone tell me what became of the "Peterhof Mill" that Nicholas mentions in his diary several times? Did it survive, or what became of it, or is it now known by another name? I was so curious because he writes that in its visitors book Alix had signed her name during her visit in 1884.

Thank you in advance ::)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Mike on April 04, 2005, 02:48:11 PM
Quote
Can anyone tell me what became of the "Peterhof Mill"

Sorry to upset you - the Mill, built in 1848 by A. Stackenschneider, was destroyed during WW2.  :(
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 04, 2005, 03:47:11 PM
Mike, do you know if the visitor's book, that Elisa mentioned, survived or was it destroyed too?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: amedeo on April 27, 2005, 02:27:06 AM
Someone told me it was destroyed but I'm not sure at all

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 06, 2005, 02:48:45 PM
Does anybody here know if the restoration work on the Lower Palace is being continued??

I know last summer they cleared and excavated the ruins, but have no information as far as its present state is concerned...

Thanks so much in advance!

Antonio.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on May 07, 2005, 08:33:14 AM
This may sound awful, but I would much rather see the Alexander Palace restored and returned to its full museum state, BEFORE the New Palace gets rebuilt.  In an ideal world, both could be accomplished at the same time, but in the real world, the AP is just not getting the attention and money it deserves.  I really hope that a concerted effort that started long ago with Bob beginning this site and alerting the world of the condition of the AP can continue to bring the AP back to its former glory.
Bob G
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 07, 2005, 12:28:22 PM
Hello Bob,

I certainly agree with all and each of your words on this subject. I don´t like to say this, but i can imagine the Lower Palace restored much sooner than the A.P. May be, in part, because to see the A.P. restored would be (for me, at least) more than a dream. Also, during my last visits i´ve seing a lot of restoration work being done in Peterhof(both town and palaces), not to say in Strelna(!!).

Anyway, i would love to see the Lower Palace restored as soon as possible...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: londo954 on May 07, 2005, 08:06:46 PM
The unfortunate thing about the Alexander Palace is its last occupants. There has been only recently a resurgence of interest in the world of Nicholas and Alexandra. And THEY are the Palaces maqin claim to fame as one might say. Peterhof generates money and tourists. A way must be found for the AP to make money.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lanie on June 18, 2005, 05:10:06 PM
Hi folks.  So, I was asked to upload some pictures from the Nicholas II: The Imperial Family book--watercolors, etc of the Lower Dacha at Peterhof.  Since they're large scans I just made a little website for them:

http://www.livadia.org/trw/peterhof

Have fun!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: NAAOTMA on June 19, 2005, 10:58:09 AM
Thank you so much for this peek into the Lower Dacha at Peterhof! It is a lovely treat and very good of you to do for all of us.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: oleg on June 19, 2005, 11:41:09 AM
Thanks so much Lanie, a very good idea.

I cannot enlarge the pics, can you? Or they are just small.

Bye
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lanie on June 19, 2005, 07:59:49 PM
Click on the small images. :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on June 19, 2005, 08:02:49 PM
Nothing happens when I click on the small images.
Am I doing something wrong?
Bob
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lanie on June 19, 2005, 09:16:10 PM
Oh, wow, no, I was an idiot and forgot to link them!  Go check the website now. :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: amedeo on June 20, 2005, 05:34:42 AM

Wonderful pics, thanks a lot, I've never seen pics like those, they are very large!

Thank you for your precious contribute.

bye
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on June 20, 2005, 06:26:14 AM
Lanie,
Now I can see them larger.
They are wonderful!
Thanks for fixing the links.
Bob G
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gleb on June 20, 2005, 06:29:17 AM
THANKS A LOT! :)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: David_Newell on July 12, 2005, 10:49:14 AM
Does anyone have any plans of the Lower Dacha at Peterhof


David Newell, London
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on July 23, 2005, 03:16:06 PM
A view of the dining room of the Lower Palace:
http://www.peterhof.ru/?m=18&p=166&photo=255

A view of Nicholas' Study:
http://www.peterhof.ru/?m=18&p=166&photo=256

A view of the Lower Palace:
http://www.peterhof.ru/?m=18&p=166&photo=254

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on July 23, 2005, 03:30:44 PM
Quote
Does anybody here know if the restoration work on the Lower Palace is being continued??I know last summer they cleared and excavated the ruins, but have no information as far as its present state is concerned...


Hi Antonio

From a press release last August 2004, the timeline for the restoration is 2014 due to financing:

"...Cost of construction of the bottom summer residence of Peterhof, Romanov's last palace will be 600 million roubles, director of the state park museum of reserve "Peterhof" Vadim Znamenov has informed at press conference on Friday. According to V.Znamenova, the customer of construction is Gosstroy of Northwest. Designing works are conducted by the company of Joint-Stock Company " Cathedral ". As the general director of Joint-Stock Company " Cathedral " Vladimir Leontev has informed, on disassembly of blockages with architectural research 7,5-8 million roubles, on restoration of the base - 7,3 million roubles and on an establishment of external networks - 3-5 million roubles is required. At given moment, according to V.Znamenova, it is executed more than 60 % of designing works. It has noted, that the main problem at present is the problem of financing. In a year restoration of reserve the state allocates 60 million roubles that will allow to restore a museum only by 2014..."

http://www.web-invest.ru/?p=13&ID=66600

Joanna

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on July 24, 2005, 04:52:13 PM
In a video "A Russian Journey" 1987 with footage by photographer Clay Francisco, there is a scene of Nicholas and two daughters leaving the Lower Palace. It is a side view of the palace that is very narrow and following coming from a large archway that is part of the palace is a regiment walking six abreast. Does anyone know where this archway leads to within the palace? Or has a photo of this side view of the palace?

Another scene is with Nicholas, Alexandra and family amongst a group in the garden area. It was fascinating in that Alexandra coughed and her hand rose to cover her mouth. It was such a natural reaction compared to the formal footage that is normally associated with Alexandra.

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on October 06, 2005, 12:19:56 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/1-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/2-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/3-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/4-comp.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on October 06, 2005, 12:33:14 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/5-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/6-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/7-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/8-comp.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on October 06, 2005, 12:35:31 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/9-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/10-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/11-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/12-comp.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on October 06, 2005, 12:38:32 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/13-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/14-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/15-comp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/16-comp.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Greg D on October 06, 2005, 02:22:36 AM
Thanks for the amazing Photos Scott , you have a real eye for the architectural details !

I am interested in the Farm Palace at Peterhof .... while you were there, did you notice how far the restoration was proceeding, as did you by chance take any photos  :)

All the Best

Greg
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on October 06, 2005, 01:57:18 PM
Yes, I have some photos of the Farm Palace.  I'll try to post them later today under the proper thread.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Arleen on October 06, 2005, 03:31:49 PM
Scott, every time I log into the forum I always check to see if you have posted any new photographs.  Your photography is perfection and I appreciate it so much!  

I did not realize that the lower Palace is so near the sea....or has the sea encroached on the land after all of these years since it was built.

It is true that each picture tells a story, some heartbreaking.  The close up of the yellow and red stripe bricks wrung mine.   Thank you for sharing with us Scott.

Best wishes,
..Arleen
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Scott on October 16, 2005, 01:43:50 AM
I have tried to match up some of the architectural details that remain in the ruins with the same details shown in pre-revolutionary photos of the palace.

Here are a couple of old photos.  I have marked several locations on the building with red numbers:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/Untitled-Scanned-03.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/058021bd.jpg)

And here are smaller versions of some of my recent photos posted above.  I have placed the matching number on the same location as shown in the old photos:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/7-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/13-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/11-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/12-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/14-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/9-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/5-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/6-com.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/8-com.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lucien on October 16, 2005, 04:25:49 AM
Good lord!What breathtaking,heartbreaking,detailed and stupendously beautifull images Scott.
Lucien.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: NAAOTMA on October 16, 2005, 10:10:05 PM
Scott, please let me add my words of praise and thanks for your amazing effort regarding the New Palace. What you have done with the "past" and "present" photos is wonderful!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Elocin on October 23, 2005, 11:04:51 PM
Scott,

Thank you for the breath taking photos!  They are wonderful.

The part that tugs my strings is seeing the graffiti on the wall.

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on October 24, 2005, 06:42:47 AM
Scott's "old photos" of the New Palace makes me desperate to see floorplans to understand the rooms and pictures posted in this thread.

Does ANYONE have floorplans of the new palace?  I'm sure they must exist somewhere.  Please, Please post them so we can see how the Imperial Family lived here.  Just seeing these old views of the palace was exciting: I had never seen them before.

Thanks so much.

BobG
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 07, 2005, 01:11:43 PM
Although no reconctruction is actually underway, this is a water colour of the 'LowerPalce" from a new book  from Peterhof I purchased in October. It is quite large and I have tried to compress it.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/Markhall/peterhof002.jpg)

The credited artist ins Tomishko 1895-97
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on January 28, 2006, 02:32:19 PM
I just found this picture of the New Palace in 1890 before the renovations and thought it was interesting to compare it to the renovated palace.
In 1890:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/BobG_AP/AP%20Discussion%20Board/LowerPalacein1890.jpg)

After Renovations:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/BobG_AP/AP%20Discussion%20Board/aleksandria20datcha.jpg)

BobG
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Reco on March 09, 2006, 12:13:10 PM
(http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/6066/imagesnypltsesarevichpalace9gc.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)(http://)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: frimousse on March 09, 2006, 10:23:29 PM
THANK YOU so much !!! thrilling !
Title: Lower Palace. A guide. 1932.
Post by: Vladimir_V. on June 02, 2006, 11:40:43 AM
In 1932 Peterhof museum published a small guide “Peterhof and its palaces” in English.
Title: Re: Lower Palace. A guide. 1932.
Post by: Janet_W. on June 02, 2006, 12:32:26 PM
Thank you, Vladimir!  It is VERY interesting, not only because it provides information about the palace, but also information via a 1932 point-of-view. If you have the time and opportunity to post more, I'm sure we'd all enjoy reading additional pages.
Title: Re: Lower Palace. A guide. 1932.
Post by: BobG on June 03, 2006, 05:45:37 AM
Vladimir,
I agree with Janet W and hope you'll be able to post additional pages.  Since it seems impossible to get floorplans of the lower palace, this description of it might help us to understand its layout.
Thank you for providing us with such a generous opportunity.
BobG
Title: Re: Lower Palace. A guide. 1932.
Post by: Belochka on June 03, 2006, 07:47:31 AM
[size=10]Spasibo Vladimir,

The soviet propaganda is so obvious and quite comical to read.  :D

Privet,

Margarita[/size]
[/color]
Title: Re: Lower Palace. A guide. 1932.
Post by: Arleen on June 07, 2006, 02:42:00 AM
Does anyone know why here in the Lower Palace Nicholas and Alexandra have what looks like a "double bed"?  I've always wondered why they had those brass twin beds everywhere else....looks like they would have been uncomfortable, and of course there is that crack down the middle even tho they are pushed together.  

Why didn't they have a big bed custom made for the two of them?

Arleen
Title: Re: Lower Palace. A guide. 1932.
Post by: Dmitry2 on June 07, 2006, 08:50:54 AM
The reason for the twin beds is quite simple.  It allows for each side to be individual in terms of the hardness of the mattress.  Further, there is less motion transferrance.  By having the two sides of the bed separate, the Imperial couple could sleep in respective comforts, but still together.  Nicholas was up earlier than the Empress and he could do so without disturbing her, which would not be as easy to accomplish if they had one mattress.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: GDNastya on October 11, 2006, 08:55:25 AM
Exist any watercolours or photos of the LOWER PALACE interiors?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gleb on October 17, 2006, 12:11:40 PM
Exist any watercolours or photos of the LOWER PALACE interiors?


As regards photos there was a thread with many interiors, if you are able to dig it up, you should be very satisfied.

As regards watercolours I don't think they exist, but I may be wrong.

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on October 21, 2006, 11:28:06 PM
Exterior views of the Lower Palace c1890-1900:

http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2008061105
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2008062032
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2008072980
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2008073292

Panorama views from the palace to the water:
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2008061626
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2008061827

Damage from WWII c1946:
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2001759394
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2001759421
http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2100755541

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Arleen on October 24, 2006, 10:56:09 AM
Many thanks to Reco, Bob G and Joanna for the splendid pictures of the lower palace. 

I admit it, I was thrilled by one of the pictures that showed the way it must have looked when N & A were in residence.....the drapery on the balconys and the grounds so perfectly groomed.  I especially loved the way the trees are clipped....sort of like disneyworld of the 1910's. 

Joanna, this website you have found through your research....sure do wish I could read Russian!!  The pictures they present are priceless!  Thanks for posting them for us.

A
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on July 02, 2008, 07:34:19 PM
My apologies if this has been posted previously or if even by me! A view of the Lower Dacha c1930-1940. It is from a postcard and although small pic, the view of the retaining wall seems to have been reinforced since the revolution. Any comments if you think also in comparing with other photos?

http://www.antiq.info/images/pictures/084926.JPG

This photo seems the same but with a sepia older feel to it:
http://www.ozon.ru/multimedia/soft_other/1000528106.jpg

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on July 30, 2008, 04:46:53 PM
July 22, 2008 - Lower Palace will be restored in 3 - 4 years:
http://saint-petersburg.ru/m/219583/nizhniy_dworets_petergofa_budet_wosstanowlen_cherez_3-4_go.html

Vadim Znamenov, Director of Peterhof Museum, announced that they received the money to complete the design estimates by end of year and that restoration will begin in 2009. The museum collection has over a thousand photographs of the Lower Palace. The Director stated that the remaining wall fragments will be incorporated in the reconstruction and that along with photographs, there are large numbers of furniture, porcelain and other items belonging to the Imperial family.

Photograph of ruins 2007:
http://sesese.narod.ru/foto3/2007_velo_alex3.jpg

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Marie-Catherine on July 31, 2008, 02:27:53 PM
Ohh ! That's so great news ! Thank you !
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on September 08, 2008, 06:52:54 PM
Great news: after the Alexander palace; it is the turn of Petergof to be restored!!!

Last Castle of Emperor Nicholas II in Petergof to be Restored 24.07.2008


(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r248/vassiliv/Russia/news_6767_n.jpg)

The restoration of Nizhniaya Dacha, the last castle of Emperor Nicholas the Second will start in 2009.
     

  The building of Nizhniaya Dacha was started in the late 19th century for Alexander the Third, yet when the castle was ready, it was Nicholas the Second who moved to it. So traditionally it is called the last Castle of Nicholas the Second. It was here also where Tsesarevich Alexei, heir to the throne, was born. The castle was burned down during the Great Patriotic War, then it was exploded in the 1950s and is in ruins till date.
     
     
      Altogether 20 museums have been open on the territory of Petrodvorets this year. Restoration of the last museum object, the Hermitage in Nizhni Park will start by the beginning of the next year.
     
http://www.russia-ic.com/news/show/6767/
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on September 08, 2008, 09:11:16 PM
Vassili:

Nizhniaya Dacha

Are you saying that this ruin is going to be rebuilt??    I really do not understand.  There is nothing at ruin now.   There is just a jumble of steps, old foundations and nothing else.

Can you imagine the money this will cost, when the Alexander Palace is in need of restoration right now...immediately?  This is so very weird that I am at a loss to understand this. 

The Nizhniaya Dacha was a huge building and will cost millions of rubles to reconstruct.   Any comments from the Forum?  Have they lost their minds?

They are not rebuilding, they are actually planning on building a replica?   Correct?

Douglas
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Svetabel on September 09, 2008, 07:33:03 AM
Vassili:

Nizhniaya Dacha

Are you saying that this ruin is going to be rebuilt??    I really do not understand.  There is nothing at ruin now.   There is just a jumble of steps, old foundations and nothing else.

Can you imagine the money this will cost, when the Alexander Palace is in need of restoration right now...immediately?  This is so very weird that I am at a loss to understand this. 

The Nizhniaya Dacha was a huge building and will cost millions of rubles to reconstruct.   Any comments from the Forum?  Have they lost their minds?

They are not rebuilding, they are actually planning on building a replica?   Correct?

Douglas

Douglas,

In July this year at a press-conference Vadim Znamenov, Chief Exectuve of the State Museum "Peterhof", said that Nizhnaya Dacha will be restored to 2013 year, the beginning of the works are planned in the 1st months of 2009. Znamenov made a point that money is not a problem there as the Administration of our Russian President promised to give all the sum.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on September 10, 2008, 06:28:23 AM
After the restoration project of the palace Alexandre, I think we can do with it as a real rehabilitation of the last tsar in Russian history: reviving these two palaces in my view is a real tribute to the Tsar Nicolas and family...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on October 19, 2008, 06:19:40 PM
Interesting file on the research of the original colors of palaces and pavilions in Peterhof, some pics has never been edited here...

http://crcv.revues.org/document1572.html
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on December 01, 2008, 07:34:38 PM
Has anyone seen this photograph before? Although labelled as Tsarskoe Selo, it is obviously the Lower Dacha with interesting close-up details of the awnings:

http://visualrian.ru/storage/PreviewWM/0877/26/087726.jpg

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Condecontessa on December 02, 2008, 03:24:08 PM
Thank you Joanna for posting the above pic. It's rare for me and yes it is the Lower Dacha. I'm glad to see the details too, especially the curtains in that particular side of the building. This must be taken at the same time as another picture of the Imperial Family walking in the gardens of Peterhof (the one with the Empress holding a parasol).
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gd Bailey on May 31, 2009, 02:15:02 PM
does anybody know the measurments of the lower dacha. for example how many square feet there were?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on June 01, 2009, 05:09:08 PM
the Lower Palace

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Douglas606/1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Douglas606/img-17.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on December 13, 2009, 06:31:02 PM
Are these 3 photographs new to others here? I am stunned. The detail of the balcony in the first photo is extraordinary as the iron overhang was still there after the war:


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_3.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_2.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Petergof._Alexandria.jpg

Joanna


Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on December 13, 2009, 08:24:17 PM
Are these 3 photographs new to others here? I am stunned. The detail of the balcony in the first photo is extraordinary as the iron overhang was still there after the war:

These photos are new to me.  The WW II shelling certainly did a lot of damage. 
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: ArchitectCS on December 17, 2009, 07:20:07 AM
I was under the opinion that there is practically nothing left of the lower dacha.  Aren't the ruins shown here substantially more complete than exists today?  What happened?  Did the Soviets demolish the remains?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexander1917 on December 17, 2009, 11:19:14 AM
It was demolished after WWII and now you have not much more than parts of the basemant, and some doorway, and much brickstones and steel parts.
 it is also coverd with plants, the whole thing is surrounded by an iron raillings
here some inages from July 09

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2751.jpg)

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2752.jpg)

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2753.jpg)

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2749.jpg)

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2748.jpg)

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2750.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on December 22, 2009, 06:33:29 PM
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_3.jpg

I have no idea of architecture, interior building materials - was there drywall c1900s?!! In the above photo, the third floor shows the doorway leading from the tower to the room. You can also see windows that faced the interior room, similar style to the exterior windows. The tower was the original building and then c1896 it was extended for NII's family. Would the interior windows have been covered by drywall or something or do you think that is how it was, stark as the photo shows?

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on December 22, 2009, 10:21:48 PM
Back in those days they used wood lath strips and plastered over that.  It was a three stage wet process.

 Drywall was invented in 1916 but it was not really used much until WW II and after.

My father had a house built in 1948 and they were still using the old  lath & wet  plaster process.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on December 23, 2009, 06:12:32 PM
Thanks Douglas. It would be interesting to know if that was the anteroom to NII's study that faced the sea.

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on December 24, 2009, 11:33:26 AM
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could somehow discover floorplans of the lower dacha.  I know there had been plans to rebuild it (I'm not sure if that is still going to happen) and hoped that as part of that process, the floorplans would be published and we would know exactly what the layout of the lower dacha was.  I still hold out a lot of hope that one of our Russian friends will be able to provide us with the plans from archives or books or other publications.
Happy Holidays to all!
BobG
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on December 25, 2009, 10:33:53 AM
Bob,

According to what I read along the last months the project of reconstruction is abandonned because of the economical crisis, sad to hear...

Anyway, happy christmas to everyone!
Title: The Italian House at Peterhof
Post by: Cody on January 24, 2010, 03:55:34 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew what was/is the Italian House at Peterhof where the then-Tsarevich Nicholas wrote in his diary how he and Alix carved their names in the rear window of the Italian House?
Title: Re: The Italian House at Peterhof
Post by: Tasia on January 24, 2010, 05:18:46 PM
Wow, I haven't known that!! How Interesting!!
^^
Does anyone know it better?
Title: Re: The Italian House at Peterhof
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 25, 2010, 03:46:25 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew what was/is the Italian House at Peterhof where the then-Tsarevich Nicholas wrote in his diary how he and Alix carved their names in the rear window of the Italian House?

I have always taken "the Italian House" to be the one which became the Lower Dacha (after remodelling). It was originally Italian in style; rather less so when they had finished with it. Even in 1884 it was earmarked as Nicholas's future home, as far as I recall, and the remodeling may even have started. But there is a long thread here about it in the palace section.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on February 25, 2010, 10:03:58 AM
That's incredibly sad to see : (
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Constantinople on April 02, 2010, 09:42:43 AM
I think that with all the natural resources money flowing into russia now, a certain protion of this should be used for reconstructing alll Imperial Buildings and Palaces that were destroyed.  By this i don't mean sheds or ones that were not well known and documented.  I think the more that Russia does this, the greater the flow of tourists into Russia and more currency.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: richard_1990 on April 03, 2010, 03:11:38 AM
They've done that significantly already. Over the last 20 years they've restored the entire Moscow Kremlin, Peterhof, Catherine Palace, Winter Palace (where needed), Kolomenskoye Palace, Pavlosk Palace, Mikhailovich Palace, the Engineers palace, Constantine Palace and others that I can't think of. There's been billions of dollars spent of palace restoration.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Margot on April 03, 2010, 03:45:37 AM
Ropsha is another being 'restored' and will apparently be an hotel! The Russian government does seem to be trying to save the Imperial heritage it has left which is fantastic IMHO!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: PAVLOV on May 03, 2010, 06:47:41 AM
I really hope they save Ropsha. But when renovated as hotels, these old buildings lose their character completely. But rather something than nothing. There is not very much to lose at Ropsha anyway I suppose. They have left it so late, there is almost nothing left.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: lilianna on July 14, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
A book about the Lower Palace, and photos of the bedrooms of the book.

http://img805.imageshack.us/i/bookofpeterhof1932.png/

http://img62.imageshack.us/i/imperialbedroom.png/
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: lilianna on July 14, 2010, 02:01:22 AM
Photos of Lower Palace in 1944:

http://img215.imageshack.us/i/39304656.jpg/

http://img24.imageshack.us/i/97177855.png/
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: PAVLOV on July 14, 2010, 08:16:34 AM
Actually if one compares what remained after the Germans had their little temper tantrum by destoying everything, to Pavlovsk, it could probably have been restored. I think they destoyed what was left because the building had such personal links with the last imperial family, and was not a Baroque extravaganza like the  others. A style to which the Soviets identified with more easily. Also I dont think they wanted to restore what was essentially an "Arts and Crafts" / "Style moderne"  building.
I dont think they understood the architecture sufficiently to make the effort. So it was just easier to flatten it.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: lilianna on July 14, 2010, 02:14:32 PM
At that time, nobody did not think about the Emperor and no one thought that will restore the imperial palaces. But now President of the Peterhof Palace Museum Znamenov wants to restore the Lower Palace.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 14, 2010, 02:37:40 PM
Strickly  my opinion,  I think it a waste of resources and effort to restore a talentless  creation of no real historical value. It would not even be a a restoration, but moire a reconstruction.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Carisbrooke on July 15, 2010, 07:00:42 AM
   The footprint of the building is still there & by the look of that great mound of earth in recent pictures most of the rubble too. It's just a matter of putting it all back together again. I think the building is of great historical importance considering the events that took place there. Also I would put it in my top 10 of Romanov buildings along with Ropsha. Any rebuild would take time and money I know but I feel a future restoration would be possible. Anyway all this can be put on hold until the current economic crisis is over, as the ruins are not particularly going anywhere.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: I-TsarevichAlexei13 on July 15, 2010, 12:09:47 PM
Very much so Carisbrooke, I agree. The New Palace, or Lower Dacha was of historical and great importance during Nicholas II, and Alexandra's reign in Imperial Russia. When one looks at the fotographs of the Villa before the 1940s, Its a beautiful structure, and the furniture "cozy corners" and the pieces were so delicate, it takes real arts and skills to recreate a mansion/palace like that :)

I believe that The curators saved tons of things from the Lower Dacha, yes? It would be a great thing to restore it to its former potential and glory, plus its what the tourists want to see, the recreated, paradise of Nicholas & Alexandra. I do not think it is a talentless or arts-and-crafts building, It shows the personal ways and styles of the Last Emperor and Empress, and plus

Most of the children were born there, Alexei especially in August of 1904. So why would they not restore it? If They are going to fully restore the Alexander Palace, completely, then why stop there? Restore The Lower Dacha, and I also agree Ropsha should be too, It is a beautiful building as well :)

So that's my thoughts!

God Bless! Slava Bogu!

~I-TsarevichAlexei13
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 15, 2010, 12:30:21 PM
Obviously I see it differently.  It has no actual  historical importance.  Used mainly as a summer retreat and was only finished in 1897, so used less than 20 years. The exterior was mock Victorian Gothic and the interiors were art nouveau ['which I have bee led to beieve were actually salvaged]
 There are  plans for a reconstruction, but nothing definite has been agreed upon. Other palaces of far more importance [as well as age] take priority. This all takes a great deal of money. The lower dacha simply is not worth it, unless you want to write the check.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: I-TsarevichAlexei13 on July 15, 2010, 12:55:28 PM
Robert, no offense. But do you not particularly like Nicholas & ALexandra, and their style and tastes? I really think people make this thread WAY TOO public, like medical conditions, and things like private things.. people do not need to have knowing these things, not that this is part of the topic at hand, but people generally make Nicholas and ALexandra out to be idiots ruling the biggest country in the world.

and again I argue that it would not be worthless to restore it. Its a geuinely beautiful nad characteristic architecture. It did most certainly have great importance other then being the family's summer residence, (one of them)

but what do I know? so yeah....

God Bless!

Slava Bogu!

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 15, 2010, 03:07:50 PM
I-T... you miss the point entirely. Why do you think everything is a personal attack on N&A ? Thishas absolutely NOTHING to do with  N&A, whether I like them or not.
  I told you before, I will post those thoughts on the appropriate threads, if  asked and I feel like it.
 This is about the  artistic and historical value of a recontrustion of a useless and valueless dacha,  finished  in 1897, rarely used and of no real importance.
 This sort of folly [mock Gothic/Victorian] is NOT Russian style and not even of much other than a sop between   St.P and trotting off to the yacht.
 The interior, which I have been led to believe, had been salvaged as it was art nouveau style and  medium quality. Not very popular, but good examples. Some of which may well be in Hermitage furniture galleries.
 I still maintain that the the funds, resources and talents  would be  better used at  older, more important palaces. Not some romanticised  sea shore  middle class, bourgeoisie  villa.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: I-TsarevichAlexei13 on July 15, 2010, 03:31:44 PM
Excuse me but no offense, How can you say The Lower Dacha was "useless, and valueless" !? You didn't live there, and you shouldn't say such things. I realise this is a forum built on academic understandings, but The Lower Dacha was more then a useless building, It had great value, and was very useful, did not Nicholas II, and his family vacation there, go to the beach, drink tea??? How can you say it was useless? I am sorry, but I do not agree with you. It's rather harsh saying that, I wonder what Nicholas and Alexandra would think... today's world we live in..... so different...]

God Bless!

Slava Bogu!

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 15, 2010, 04:19:01 PM
Again, I-T,  no offence taken nor meant.
 However you are again romanticising an innate object
 The dacha had no  state function and was merely a holiday stop.
 IMO , Livadia is a far superior example  for display and function.
 You also force me  to  say that my  opinions on the  IF  do not match yours, which I can tell are rather devotional and, beg your pardon, immature. That is fine, for you, but confine those thoughts to the appropriate threads, please.
 This thread is about a defunct  "palace" and it's worth as a reconstruction project. Not another shrine to  the N&A cult.
 Cheers,
 Robert
 BTW, have you even been there ? I have.   Just not worth the effort.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: RomanovMartyrs on July 15, 2010, 07:13:35 PM
To the question, "Should Lower Dacha be restored?" I tend to agree with Robert_Hall.

This is because, having been in Russia myself, and told quite a lot about the restorations of things while I was there, I see how much funding and time go into the care and maintenance of the most historical buildings (i.e. painting Catherine Palace over every year with paint derived from real gold). This is the Russian people's tax dollars at work, and while I too, believe in the importance of restoring the most important of the palaces to their full potential, I disagree that ALL should be.

As has been said, we already have the following restored with complete or partial dedication to the last imperial family:

1. Winter Palace
2. Alexander Palace
3. Catherine Palace
4. Livadia Palace

(And a few others I haven't listed, such as Pavlovsk, Kremlin, etc.; Not to mention the countless cathedrals which dedicate at least some of their funding to the upkeep of Romanov icons, artifacts, and so on and so forth.) While it is important that we remember Russia's colorful history, it is not necessary to reconstruct all things that were once theirs, simply for the sake of those who hold sentimental attachment to it. There are a good deal more people within Russia who would rather see government funding help improve education, medicine, and standard of living in general. The palaces mentioned above adequately preserve Russia's history. Reconstructing costly little vacation homes of the past denies Russian people of the present their right to monetary aide.

That said, however, something I do NOT agree with you about, Robert_Hall, is the treatment of other members here. This is a scholarly forum to discuss facts concerning history. The academics I know personally do not behave in the manner with which you have been replying to I-TsarevichAlexei13. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees on a point is one thing. But to name-call (And I use your words, "immature" and the idea of making a "shrine to the N&A cult") is another thing entirely. Yes, explain your point of view. Yes, you have a right to voice the knowledge you have obtained. But to throw in a "Have you even been there? I have." is quite unnecessary. Might it not have been better to state that you have been there and you are basing your opinions on your experience? I think so. No one needs to demean another person to make their argument more sound.

And, to play devil's advocate here, you previously mentioned that the Lower Dacha should not be restored, using it's age (finished in 1897) as a basis for your argument. It should be noted, in that case, that Cathedral on the Spilled Blood was not completed until 1907, and today still undergoes restoration (in fact when I last visited there it was having work on the domes). The Dacha was a place of birth of a boy who was once Tsarevich of all the Russias. The Cathedral was the place of death of another. If we are only basing the argument that the Lower Dacha should not be restored on its age, and historical significance, then you must also assert that there is no reason to restore the above mentioned Cathedral again.

-RomanovMartyrs

ETA: I am probably a member of the so-called "N&A cult" of which you speak, and I still do not believe in restoring this building. Just thought I would add that. Just because I revere them does not mean my opinion of them can be lumped into something that you deem "cult"-like.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 15, 2010, 07:44:24 PM
I have duly noted your  comments, RM... and yes, I am  a bit opinionated about  some of these things.  Some items I would retract and apologise for.
 However, my opinions remain steadfast.
 As for  monuments,   the Spilled blood is a monument to an historical event.
 The dacha, well so what if Alexei was born there ? Heirs were born all over the country. Should all of them  be restored?
 There is much value in Russian patrimony.  This place is simply not worth the bother and COST, in  my opinion.
 As I said,  no matter what my feelings of the Romanovs are.
 I also apologise to IT if he took offence at my "been there" comment. I certainly meant none.  However I have and it is a trek. make it accessible to the few that would actually visit it  would be a major effort and expense.
 The lake villas were recently completely restored, at major cost and effort and are  now  drawing summer  audiences, but not enough to pay for the  work.
 Also, rtemember, the dacha is a summer  place.  useless  3/4th of the year. Not likely  to draw enough attention to pay for itself.
 Many practicalities must be taken into account  in these matters. And,  in my OPINION, the dacha is low on the list of "things to do"
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: lilianna on July 16, 2010, 03:45:53 PM


According to Vadim Znamenov in July 2008 - The first stage of works will remove the rubble of destroyed buildings. It will build on the remaining historical foundation. Save as whole fragments of walls, which then can be built into new construction ", - said Banner.

From museumification palace, in his opinion, the problems will not: Peterhof retained a large number of furniture, china, original photographs and other items of the Romanov family.
 

http://aquaviva.ru/news/2008-07-22/862.html


Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on July 16, 2010, 08:40:36 PM
I do understand Robert's impressions of the location but here is what I discovered.

I read the recent article in Russian about the rebuilding of the Lower Dacha.  From what the Director said he appears to echo the feelings of the Russian people about the events of WW II.  Apparently the Russians are still  rather upset, I could use the P word, that the Germans destroyed this structure as they retreated from Russian at the end of the War.   That may be their main but quietly spoken motive.  They still want to get-even with the Germans and a rebuilding is the way to do that.

Historically speaking, the 'palace' was used as the signing place for the Duma Documents in 1905, besides the other events already discussed in this thread.  Also, the Director emphatically states that there is plenty of money to rebuild the Lower Dacha.  The feeling I get from him is  that without this palace in place, a jewel of the crown is missing.  This Director also may want this as his lasting contribution.

Evidently the grounds will be prepared for reconstruction without further ado, baring some unforeseen development.  

  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Douglas606/lowerdachadrawing.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Douglas606/lowerdachaboys.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Douglas606/lowerdachagirls.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Douglas on July 18, 2010, 08:11:09 PM
View from the sea.  Lower Dacha.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Douglas606/lowerdashawatercolor.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 18, 2010, 08:59:23 PM
I am well aware that I am in the minority opinion,  however, I still  see this pile as a sentimental heap of rubbish Be that as it may, I am not paying  for the reconstruction, the Russian taxpayers are.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: londo954 on July 18, 2010, 11:41:19 PM
It does fit into the neogothic revival of Nicholas's reign (the Pan Slavic movement)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: PAVLOV on August 10, 2010, 08:19:51 AM
Actually the more I look at the drawings and old photos of this building, the uglier it becomes. It reminds me of one of those haunted houses on the Hudson River one reads about in an Edgar Allan Poe murder novel.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Condecontessa on May 17, 2011, 08:04:31 PM
I just noticed that you can see the lower dacha at the right of the pic.

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_crosscollex/romanov/oneITEM.asp?pid=1002173&iid=1002173&srchtype=
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexander1917 on May 18, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
I just noticed that you can see the lower dacha at the right of the pic.

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_crosscollex/romanov/oneITEM.asp?pid=1002173&iid=1002173&srchtype=

sure? looks for me more like the view from the mon plesir over the small bay to the piont where now-a-days the high speed boats arrive... the is alaso a smal buliding - I thourght museum of maritime thinks - just forgotten...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexander1917 on May 18, 2011, 07:29:00 PM
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/alexander1917/IMG_2737-1.jpg)
I think this is the view from the link above...

the seasite of the lower dache is in the back of the camera and I suppose a much more in the distance , as I remember it was a long walk through the peterhof park and cottage park to the seaside were the ruins are located.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Condecontessa on May 18, 2011, 08:41:36 PM
I think it is the lower dacha. The structure of the building seems to resemble it. The curved part of the building is visible on the left side of the dacha. Plus, it came from Anna Vyrubova's album which might indicate as to why she took that particular shot. Just a thought.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexander1917 on May 19, 2011, 02:02:18 PM
it could but be, but I really think it's not. Of course I don't have a pic of the other view (over Alexandria Park) from the Mon Plesir palce.. and I think there was only on such terrrase. I knew we sat on this spot. - I think the landscape was not so wide into the Baltic Sea.
I will look at this, next year.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: BobG on June 08, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
I think the photo only makes sense if it is rotated:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/BobG_AP/1002173rotated.jpg)

This would be the view from Monplaisir looking towards the Lower Dacha. 
Here is a current photo of the terrace of Monplaisir from the Tickets to Russia web site.

(http://www.ticketsofrussia.ru/peterhof/monplimg/w6.jpg)

I can't really see the details of the palace in the distance, but clearly many pictures have been incorrectly posted in the past.
BobG
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexander1917 on June 13, 2011, 06:11:48 PM
that the pic was roted was also my first thought - but a bit of research at google earth - the bay is a other shape on this side. and when the ruins which I saw and entered last time was the lower datcha - which I think (location, stones etc) it's not seen from that spot. as I said I will see it in some weeks.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: LondonGirl on September 11, 2011, 02:24:02 PM
I-T... you miss the point entirely. Why do you think everything is a personal attack on N&A ? Thishas absolutely NOTHING to do with  N&A, whether I like them or not.
  I told you before, I will post those thoughts on the appropriate threads, if  asked and I feel like it.
 This is about the  artistic and historical value of a recontrustion of a useless and valueless dacha,  finished  in 1897, rarely used and of no real importance.
 This sort of folly [mock Gothic/Victorian] is NOT Russian style and not even of much other than a sop between   St.P and trotting off to the yacht.
 The interior, which I have been led to believe, had been salvaged as it was art nouveau style and  medium quality. Not very popular, but good examples. Some of which may well be in Hermitage furniture galleries.
 I still maintain that the the funds, resources and talents  would be  better used at  older, more important palaces. Not some romanticised  sea shore  middle class, bourgeoisie  villa.

That's because you aren't royal, lol - palaces are no more than a showpiece, like a glorified company HQ. Interesting obviously from an artistic merit viewpoint, but not very informative as to more private tastes. Attempting to intellectualise a family's choice of residence is frankly pompous. It is important to people interested in the people more than the bricks.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: LondonGirl on November 14, 2011, 03:35:11 PM
Do any floor plans exist of this place? It would be interesting to see them. It seems to be not only a part of the Peterhof landscape, but also a favourite place of the family.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: RomanovMartyrs on October 05, 2012, 09:36:44 PM
Hi, I need a bit of advice, can someone help me?

I'm trying to find the lower dacha when I go to Peterhof and it's confusing as to where it is.

For those who've been and actually found it since it's obviously not listed on the tour map, say I'm facing Peterhof having just gotten off the boat. The palace and fountains are in front of me, Marli Palace is to my right. Where should I go from here to find it?

Before, I headed left, and after I got so far into Alexandrovsky park, was stopped by a fence along the beach. There is a good deal of yellow and red brick washing up there, so I wondered if the dacha is on the other side of that fence (so tourists won't go play "climb the ruins" or whatever). But I've just used Google maps satellite image and now wonder if the dacha isn't kind of off to the side of Marli palace instead; there's a seemingly local or private marina over that way that perhaps would've been in front of where lower dacha once was.

Anyway someone could let me know? That'd be super! I promise to take photos and share them if someone can just point me in the right direction. : )
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gleb on February 09, 2013, 04:09:15 PM
http://oldsp.ru/photo/view/17113 (http://oldsp.ru/photo/view/17113)

To me, despite the caption, this seems to be the imperial bedroom in the Lower Dacha.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexandre Mikhaelovitch on February 26, 2013, 02:24:16 PM
Peterhof Plans Discusses Future of Lower Palace of Nicholas II !!!

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1444659/peterhof-plans-discusses-future-of-lower-palace-of-nicholas-ii/

Reconstructing or conservation of the ruins ?...
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Lady Macduff on September 17, 2013, 08:55:55 PM
I'm trying to get all the Peterhof palaces straight. I know the Great Palace looks like Versailles and the Farm is more of a mansion, where Nicholas and Alexandra stayed while the Lower Dacha was being built. So is it fair to say that after the Lower Dacha was completed, when the family referred to staying at Peterhof in letters/diaries they meant the Lower Dacha? I know Alexandra and the girls took a trip to Peterhof in 1915, so the Lower Dacha would have been where they stayed. Did anyone use the Farm after the Lower Dacha was completed? If not, it's a shame. The Farm is my very favorite "palace."

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Svetabel on September 18, 2013, 02:39:08 AM
I'm trying to get all the Peterhof palaces straight. I know the Great Palace looks like Versailles and the Farm is more of a mansion, where Nicholas and Alexandra stayed while the Lower Dacha was being built. So is it fair to say that after the Lower Dacha was completed, when the family referred to staying at Peterhof in letters/diaries they meant the Lower Dacha? I know Alexandra and the girls took a trip to Peterhof in 1915, so the Lower Dacha would have been where they stayed. Did anyone use the Farm after the Lower Dacha was completed? If not, it's a shame. The Farm is my very favorite "palace."



The Farm was used by other Romanovs or some guests. F.e. GD Sergei and his wife Elizaveta when visiting the Imperial Couple in summer often lived in the Farm Palace.
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexandre Mikhaelovitch on December 22, 2013, 11:04:30 AM
THE NEWS OF THE WEEK END !!!

Peterhof Museum Announces Reconstruction of Lower Palace of Nicholas II !!!

After nearly a year of planning and discussions, a decision has been made to reconstruct the former palace/dacha of emperor Nicholas II at Peterhof.

Click on the link below to read the Paul Gilbert's article on the site Royal Russia  :

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1452274/peterhof-museum-announces-reconstruction-of-lower-palace-of-nicholas-ii/

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2013/12/22//1312220610235012511836982.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1312220610235012511836982.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on February 20, 2015, 06:25:24 PM
A rare painting - draft by the Architect A. Tomishko in 1882:
http://www.rescuearcheo.ru/progekts_2013_img/Nizhnaya_Dacha/6_big.jpg
View showing original colors:
http://p2.citywalls.ru/photo_120-123038.jpg?mt=1335125624

Another view that is new to me:
http://www.rescuearcheo.ru/progekts_2013_img/Nizhnaya_Dacha/8_big.jpg

Joanna

Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on March 02, 2015, 05:43:28 PM
OH WOW after years we finally see the plans of the Lower Dacha!!

Last month there was a meeting in Peterhof on the reconstruction of the Lower Dacha. A pdf with plans and drawings - enjoy!!!

http://www.peterhofmuseum.ru/files/files/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%20%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8E%20%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%20%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B8.pdf

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Превед on March 03, 2015, 11:05:38 AM
OH WOW after years we finally see the plans of the Lower Dacha!!

Last month there was a meeting in Peterhof on the reconstruction of the Lower Dacha. A pdf with plans and drawings - enjoy!!!

http://www.peterhofmuseum.ru/files/files/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%20%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8E%20%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%20%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B8.pdf

Joanna

Lol, with Шлюпочная гавань - shloopochnaya gavan' - sloop haven = marina!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Ortino on March 03, 2015, 04:39:15 PM
OH WOW after years we finally see the plans of the Lower Dacha!!

Last month there was a meeting in Peterhof on the reconstruction of the Lower Dacha. A pdf with plans and drawings - enjoy!!!

http://www.peterhofmuseum.ru/files/files/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%20%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8E%20%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%20%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B8.pdf

Joanna

Lol, with Шлюпочная гавань - shloopochnaya gavan' - sloop haven = marina!

I thought гавань meant harbor? Wouldn't marina simply be марина? I know that this is not exactly the place to explore the subtleties of the Russian language, but I am curious as to what it is....
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Превед on March 04, 2015, 03:48:56 AM
I thought гавань meant harbor? Wouldn't marina simply be марина? I know that this is not exactly the place to explore the subtleties of the Russian language, but I am curious as to what it is....

You are right. Marina is марина, but when I entered Шлюпочная гавань into Google Translate, I also got marina. Гавань is harbour, but obviously cognate with English and Dutch haven.

Does anyone know if this little harbour is intended for just VIP visitors or for the general public?
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gleb on March 04, 2015, 01:46:22 PM
Thank you so much!! I've been looking forward to seeing a plan of the Lower Dacha!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gleb on March 04, 2015, 01:46:59 PM
forgot to say for years
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexandre Mikhaelovitch on July 14, 2015, 03:44:26 PM
From my personnal collection :

Emperor's bedroom , Peterhof ( Probably Lower Datcha) : ( in french behind the postcard :" chambre de l'empereur à Peterhof")

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/07/14//1507140331535012513442793.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1507140331535012513442793.jpg)
©alexandre mikhaelovitch
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Alexandre Mikhaelovitch on September 02, 2015, 07:40:17 PM
Empress Alexandra reception room , Lower Datcha Peterhof :

(http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2015/09/03//1509030239255012513552627.jpg) (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=1509030239255012513552627.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on December 05, 2016, 12:46:20 PM
“My Wonderful House on the Seashore” – Tsarevich Nicholas Alexandrovich

https://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.ca/2016/12/my-wonderful-house-on-seashore.html

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: gleb on December 08, 2016, 05:21:01 AM
Thank you very much for posting these floorplans!
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on December 16, 2016, 09:55:15 AM
Larger plans of the Lower Dacha:

https://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.ca/2016/12/floor-plans-of-lower-dacha-in-peterhof.html

Joanna
Title: Re: The Lower Dacha (New Palace), at Peterhof
Post by: Joanna on October 14, 2020, 05:48:17 PM
Photographs of the imperial family's luggage arrives at the Lower Dacha from Tsarskoe Selo:

http://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.com/2020/10/nicholas-ii-empress-alexandras-luggage.html

Joanna