Alexander Palace Forum
Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Rulers Prior to Nicholas II => Topic started by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 05, 2004, 07:48:17 PM
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Hi Thomas,
I wonder why there´s still no proper biography of Empress Maria Alexandrovna...
My all time favourite recollection-legend linking the two empresses is (surely you all know it) when Maria and Alexander were visiting Darmstadt and Alix and her brother and sisters were presented to them. When the turn came for the young Alix the empress told her lady in waiting, Baroness Anna Pilar von Pilhau:
" Kiss her hand, that´s your Tsarina-to-be"
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Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna (vs Empress, spouse of Alexander II)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/ma.jpg)
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Some information about Maria:
- born 8th August 1824 in Darmstadt as Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine
- daughter of Grand Duchess Wilhelmine of Hesse, née Princess of Baden and her lover Baron Auguste von Senarclens-Grancy
- her brother was Alexander of Hesse, the father of the Battenberg Princes
- married Alexander on April 16th 1841 (aged 16) in St. Petersburg
- the pair had 8 children (6 boys and 2 girls)
- died 8th June 1880 in St. Petersburg (Alexander remarried only one month later! The bride was his mistress, who already had 3 children by him)
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Thank you! How cool, my real name is in fact Linnea.
Is it really confirmed that her father was Baron Auguste?
Does anyone have any photos/paintings to share?
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Thank you! How cool, my real name is in fact Linnea.
Is it really confirmed that her father was Baron Auguste?
Does anyone have any photos/paintings to share?
Mine too! Are you Swedish?
Well, the fact that her father was a Baron made the parents of Alexander to dissaprove with the marriage at first. A beautiful portrait of Marie:
(http://www.artunframed.com/images/winterhalter/mar851.jpg)
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I also read that she was a great aunt of Tsarina Alexandra, can anyone confirm that?
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Mine too! Are you Swedish?
Yep, I´m swedish.
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I also read that she was a great aunt of Tsarina Alexandra, can anyone confirm that?
Wilhelmine of Hesse, née of Baden
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Prince Karl of Hesse Princess Marie of Hesse
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Grand Duke Louis of Hesse Alexander III. of Russia
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Princess Alix of Hesse Nicholas II. of Russia
As you can see, Marie was the great aunt of Alix
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i read it was a sort of love at first sight for alexander. and that he said he'd marry her or no-one else. and then...
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My understanding from Romanov Autumn, is that Alexander II liked to help women in "need". And by need I mean, women who seemed unhappy, in "need" of a rescue. Once he rescued Maria from her unhappy home, I believe after awhile he sought to "rescue" again. And well... along came Ekaterina.
Here is a quote from the chapter "The Tale of Two Women" - The wives of AII:
It was history repeating itself. In Darmstadt in 1839, Alexander has been captivated by a pretty fourteen-year-old who was obviosly unhappy and out of place. Now he felt the same awakening interest in another unhappy teenager.
As well, as the book notes, that Ekaterina looked much like the young Maria (to which I agree). Also, at this time, any physical relationship between AII and Maria was slim to none. Maybe more reason to find "love" again.
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My understanding from Romanov Autumn, is that Alexander II liked to help women in "need". And by need I mean, women who seemed unhappy, in "need" of a rescue. Once he rescued Maria from her unhappy home, I believe after awhile he sought to "rescue" again. And well... along came Ekaterina.
Here is a quote from the chapter "The Tale of Two Women" - The wives of AII:
As well, as the book notes, that Ekaterina looked much like the young Maria (to which I agree). Also, at this time, any physical relationship between AII and Maria was slim to none. Maybe more reason to find "love" again.
True, that was one of the reason to find a new woman. Also, he felt he was growing old and weak. He sought a teenager to "revive" him and to give him young children to play with.
I think in the Cameras of the Tsar, Zeepvat said when Alexander II met Marie, she was eating cherry and had to spit out the stones before she could talk to him!
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Does anyone have any photos of Maria Aleksandrovna?? The Winterhalter portrait is certainly beautiful......
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I think in the Cameras of the Tsar, Zeepvat said when Alexander II met Marie, she was eating cherry and had to spit out the stones before she could talk to him!
;D
That's funny! I like that! I really enjoy Zeepvat's book.
Does anyone have any photos of Maria Aleksandrovna?? The Winterhalter portrait is certainly beautiful......
I'm sure there are some around these boards somewhere. But here are some I have:
Pic 1 (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariehesse18244nf.jpg)
and
Pic 2 (http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=r366balexanderii8dn.jpg)
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Marie always has her fingers on her chin or is working on crafts in her photographs!
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Marie always has her fingers on her chin or is working on crafts in her photographs!
In most of her photos I'd say but not always :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/alexmalexmariepavelserge.jpg)
Here with her spouse, daughter and youngest sons
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/empmalex.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/empmalex1.jpg)
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Also, he felt he was growing old and weak. He sought a teenager to "revive" him and to give him young children to play with.
He could also have played with his grandchildren or go in the kindergarten! ;D
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(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/hessen/hessendarmstadt2/1824%20Marie-02.JPG)
(fingers on the chin as always :))
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He could also have played with his grandchildren or go in the kindergarten! ;D
He sought a woman who would love him. And love as if he is not THE EMPEROR but just an ordinary man.
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Maria Alexandrovna was a nice and intelligent woman, devoted to her family and duties, undoubtedly a great woman...but she was more a saint and heavenly creature than an ordinary flesh-and-blood woman (like Ekaterina Dolgorukaya with her unceremoniousness and simple ways).
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.....but she was more a saint and heavenly creature than an ordinary flesh-and-blood woman (like Ekaterina Dolgorukaya with her unceremoniousness and simple ways)
That sounds to me exactly the sort of thing Alexander II was saying to himself when he broke his marriage vows and dumped her in favour of a younger woman. There is no indication Maria Alexandrovna was unduly pretentious, just that she was older and presumably less 'fresh'. She might have been saintly but only in putting up with Alexander's selfish behaviour.
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Such wonderful pictures! She has such a cold gaze - tired, worn... And she looks so petite, especially in the photographs...
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She does look so petite in those photo's. She also was trying to help in the dispute about G.D. Marie marrying the Duke of Edinburugh. She actually in a way reminds me of Princess Alice.
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She does look so petite in those photo's. She also was trying to help in the dispute about G.D. Marie marrying the Duke of Edinburugh. She actually in a way reminds me of Princess Alice.
In what way? Why Princess Alice?
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I do not think that she did not love her husband. The affair he had on the side with Dolgorukaya hurt her very much and his children were all very upset at him. I personally think as life goes, in so many marriages especially today, when husbands reach a "certain" age, many (not all) get this wanderlust... How the heck can Maria Alexandrovna compete with a young girl, bearing in mind the health problems she had. I personally think her husband is also to blame for her failing health in a psychosomatic sort of way. She is one of my favourite members of the Imperial Family, on whose sarcophagus I have twice went and laid peonies. This is a woman of great depth, wisdom and character.
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Poor Marie! :-[ I feel so sorry for her.
If i ever die and go to heaven, first thing i'll do is give Marie a hug. Well if i go the other place, i'll make that a pit stop! ;) :P
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Poor Marie! :-[ I feel so sorry for her.
If i ever die and go to heaven, first thing i'll do is give Marie a hug. Well if i go the other place, i'll make that a pit stop! ;) :P
LOL--I'll go to the other place straight away, so there won't be any chance of ME hugging her...I really do admire her.
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Alexander II. with his Children: Maria,Sergej, Pavel, Alexander, Alexej and Nikolaj (left to write), 1861
(http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/6066/oaf00495qn.th.jpg) (http://img498.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf00495qn.jpg)
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(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2172/oaf00640kd.th.jpg) (http://img32.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf00640kd.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna as an ill woman
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7466/oaf00657wt.th.jpg) (http://img32.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf00657wt.jpg)
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Dolgurukaya was not the first women Alexander II took to his bed. Like most of the Romanovs, their sling of mistresses were endless.
Alexander III was the 1st Romanov Tsar to actually stay faithful to his wife.
Furthermore, the doctors had told the Tsar early on that the Empress could not engage in her marital duties, so the Tsar was, in some ways, "allowed" by both the doctors and the Empress, to officially let his eye wander off....
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she could not?! but they had so many children! and the distance between the oldest and the youngest was pretty big....
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As far as my knowledge goes, it was Nicholas I's wife, Empress Alexandra Feodorovna, that had a heart condition in which the doctors forbade her to fullfill her marital duties as a spouse, and thus Nicholas I took mistresses for sexual purposes, although husband and wife loved each other dearly despite the goings on on the sideline... :(
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she could not?! but they had so many children! and the distance between the oldest and the youngest was pretty big....
All those births, coupled with Russia's damp weather, brought on her sickness. By 1860, the year of their last child's birth, the Drs. told the Empress that future marital relations was impossible.
Their last child was born in 1860, AII started his affair with Princess Catherine around 1867.
Regards
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As far as my knowledge goes, it was Nicholas I's wife, Empress Alexandra Feodorovna, that had a heart condition in which the doctors forbade her to fullfill her marital duties as a spouse, and thus Nicholas I took mistresses for sexual purposes, although husband and wife loved each other dearly despite the goings on on the sideline... :(
this is also true for Maria Feodorovna, Paul's wife. After the birth of her 10th child (mikhail), the doctors forbade her from having more children. then paul took a mistress!
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I'm sure it hurt Marie Alexandrovna, not only because her husband was being involved in, as one of my teachers put it, "extra-cirricular activities", but also because she couldn't fulfill Tsar Alexander's probable wish to have more children.
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I'm sure it hurt Marie Alexandrovna, not only because her husband was being involved in, as one of my teachers put it, "extra-cirricular activities", but also because she couldn't fulfill Tsar Alexander's probable wish to have more children.
Oh, he wanted even more children?! Not bad! ;)
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Alexander II enjoyed playing with little children. But they had 8 children together! I mean even if her health wasn't weak, that would've caused a lot of harm to her body.
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how many children did he want?! ???
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this is also true for Maria Feodorovna, Paul's wife. After the birth of her 10th child (mikhail), the doctors forbade her from having more children. then paul took a mistress!
In fact Pavel took a mistress a decade earlier! Her name was Ekaterina Nelidova.
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In fact Pavel took a mistress a decade earlier! Her name was Ekaterina Nelidova.
You are right. He had a mistress before the birth of Mikhail. But after his birth and the doctors forbade the Empress of having any more sexual relations, Paul took a teenager called Anna Lopukhina.
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You are right. He had a mistress before the birth of Mikhail. But after his birth and the doctors forbade the Empress of having any more sexual relations, Paul took a teenager called Anna Lopukhina.
She was not a teenager at all. :) They said that Pavel loved her more platonically...somewhat of a late love for a man in his fifties.
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Maria Alexandrowna
(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6005/oafgallery256ca.th.jpg) (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oafgallery256ca.jpg)
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how many children did he want?! ???
From the many books I've read about the Romanovs, I haven't seen an exact number given for how many children Alexander II wanted. But even so, he did have quite a few if you count the four with Ekaterina:
with Marie of Hesse-Darmstadt:
1. Nikolai b. 1843
2. Aleksandr III b. 1845
3. Vladimir b. 1847 (He married Miechen)
4. Aleksei b. 1850
5. Maria b. 1853 (She married Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh)
6. Sergei b. 1857 (He married Alix's sister Ella of Hesse)
7. Pavel b. 1860 (He was father to Maria and Dimitri)
With Ekaterina Dolgorukaya:
1. George b. 1872
2. Olga b. 1873
3. Boris b. 1876 (He died the same year)
4. Ekaterina b. 1878
So in total, Aleksandr II had eleven children. Not as many as George III of England (He and his wife Charlotte had FIFTEEN!) but that's still alot...
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It's never been proven that Czarina Marie Feodorovna (consort of AII) was an illegitimate child of the Grand duke of Hesse. There have always been rumors but nothing substantative proven. The empress Alexandra (Mouffy) didn't want Sasha (AII) to marry marie b/c she being a hohenzollern (high and mighty) believed that the Hesse's were too far below the Romanovs and the Hohenzollerns. I am sorry but I believe it tacky to slander the late empress's life by repeating slander about her parternity. No proof = keep it to yourself
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no-one said she was actually illegitimate. but i have read in several books that THERE WERE RUMOURS that she was illegitimate. the simple existence of those rumours was enough to taint her image, i'm not sure anyone cared whether they were true or not. and, yes, i'm sure the hesse 'low' origin was also part of the reason alexander's parents didn't agree to the marriage. but i'm also sure the rumours (that no-one ever proved or ever will) didn't help
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From the many books I've read about the Romanovs, I haven't seen an exact number given for how many children Alexander II wanted. But even so, he did have quite a few if you count the four with Ekaterina:
with Marie of Hesse-Darmstadt:
1. Nikolai b. 1843
2. Aleksandr III b. 1845
3. Vladimir b. 1847 (He married Miechen)
4. Aleksei b. 1850
5. Maria b. 1853 (She married Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh)
6. Sergei b. 1857 (He married Alix's sister Ella of Hesse)
7. Pavel b. 1860 (He was father to Maria and Dimitri)
With Ekaterina Dolgorukaya:
1. George b. 1872
2. Olga b. 1873
3. Boris b. 1876 (He died the same year)
4. Ekaterina b. 1878
So in total, Aleksandr II had eleven children. Not as many as George III of England (He and his wife Charlotte had FIFTEEN!) but that's still alot...
what about Alexandra?
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poor little Alexandra is always forgotten... :'(
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I've read that Pavel died when Dmitri was a child, but I thought that Pavel was killed by the Bolsheviks in 1919.
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Grand Duke paul was murdered by the Bolshevicks. NOw Dimitri's mother Alexandra died like 6 days after his birth but his father was a casualty of the Revolution
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I've read that Pavel died when Dmitri was a child, but I thought that Pavel was killed by the Bolsheviks in 1919.
The Pavel referred to in the thread was the Tsar Pavel (son of Catherine the Great) not the Grand Duke.
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The Pavel referred to in the thread was the Tsar Pavel (son of Catherine the Great) not the Grand Duke.
uhm, that pavel died about 100 years before what we're talking about here... which dmitri are we referring to?
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poor little Alexandra is always forgotten... :'(
What happened with Alexandra? I've only seen her listed in genealogical charts a very few times and I've never heard her discussed. She was the oldest, wasn't she? I think she lived several years, what did she die of?
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Here's what doesn't make sense to me: the tsar was taking a mistress in order insure more heirs, right? If that's true, it doesn't make sense.
1. Wouldn't any children of the tsar with a mistress be considered illegitamate, thus out of the succession?
2. Since most tsars (particularly A II and N I) had more than six children, even if the mistress' children were legitamate, wouldn't they be further down in the line since they were the product of a second marriage?
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what i understand from what people said here is not that he wanted heirs, but children... but that doesn't make much sense to me either. he had many children, and their ages were so different (the difference between nicholas or alexander and paul was very big) that it doesn't make any sense. maybe he loved children, but for god's sake does that mean he has to have one every year till he dies? no, i think he simply had strong feelings for katia and that's most of the explanation...
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Well, I think that he wa simply very fond of Princess Ekaterina, and did not neccessarily want more children. Nou doubt he enjoyed them though. Contraception was rather prinimitive at that point in time, so no doubt he accepted that he would have more children, if he wanted them or not. He did want them however, quite well. He did not take Princess Ekaterina as his mistress so he could have more kids though.
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When royal/aristocratic/high status men took mistresses, there were always people running around justifying them - their wives were in poor health/were unattractive/were too virtuous/were unable to have more children, and on and on and on - any and every excuse was put forward, frequently contradictory. There was no real good reason for Alexander II behaving as he did, just that he wanted to - and there was no one to tell him to his face that he was behaving shabbily.
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There were always reasons why for these men, and of course no one told them they were behaving badly. Although, often they were. It was accepted, and part of the tradition for upperclass males. The women just had many children, and put up with it. It is great though that the last two Czarinas of Russia didn't have to deal with this. As for Marie Alexandrovna, she was rather sad woman, in that she was more of another world than this. She wasn't spectectalcular in looks, or social life, or in personality. She wasn't really what people expected of Czarina, although she was a good woman who lived a decent life, and did her best.
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i think that she was a good czarina in the sense that she was decent and dignified and i think she did her duty pretty well, unlike alix (for example). i don't think she was very sad to start with, i think she became sad after everything life dealt on her
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What happened with Alexandra? I've only seen her listed in genealogical charts a very few times and I've never heard her discussed. She was the oldest, wasn't she? I think she lived several years, what did she die of?
Alexandra was born on August 30 1842, thus she was the eldest of Alexander II.´s children. Her father was actually very fond of her and would remember later how his little daughter sat next to him in his study while he worked and how very nice this used to be. Alexandra or "Lina" as she was called in the family died on June 28 1849 due to tubercular meninigitis. Her mother Maria Alexandrovna never really overcame the grief for her eldest child and even decades later she couldn´t talk about her "Lina" without tears in her eyes.
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There was no real good reason for Alexander II behaving as he did, just that he wanted to - and there was no one to tell him to his face that he was behaving shabbily.
I think from time to time he understood that his behavior was far from perfect. But he was over head in love with Ekaterina...
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Alexandra was born on August 30 1842, thus she was the eldest of Alexander II.´s children. Her father was actually very fond of her and would remember later how his little daughter sat next to him in his study while he worked and how very nice this used to be. Alexandra or "Lina" as she was called in the family died on June 28 1849 due to tubercular meninigitis. Her mother Maria Alexandrovna never really overcame the grief for her eldest child and even decades later she couldn´t talk about her "Lina" without tears in her eyes.
Thanks, Linnea. Now I understand her mother much better....Sad for little Lina, though. Another tragic little princess story... :'(
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I actually never knew he had an older daughter named Alexandra. It is rather a surprise to me. It is another tragic story, certainly. :(
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Portrait of Empress Maria Alexandrovna (when she was Tsesarevna) by Makarov.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Alex3/maral.jpg)
Sad and STUNNING...
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what i understand from what people said here is not that he wanted heirs, but children... but that doesn't make much sense to me either. he had many children, and their ages were so different (the difference between nicholas or alexander and paul was very big) that it doesn't make any sense. maybe he loved children, but for god's sake does that mean he has to have one every year till he dies? no, i think he simply had strong feelings for katia and that's most of the explanation...
I agree. I think he fell hard for the young woman and as Tsar there was nobody there to put their foot down so to speak. Certainly not like later when his son AIII cleaned house as far as his wayward extended family was concerned. But Empress Marie did exemplefy everything an Empress could possibly be especially in her time and of her circumstance. She was dignified and a good mother and by some accounts I have read, still maintained a good relationship with her husband even though he had his whole other family. Supposedly it was Marie Alexandrovna that insisted that he have his new family installed in the Winter Palace for their and AII's own protection during all the assassination attempts. If this is true, she was truly a woman capable of incomparable forgiveness and unconditional love. And certainly worthy of a martyr's crown, imo. :)
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She was all that. She kind of became a pawn of the dynasty. She had all the neccesary children, put up with what she had to, and wasn't at all controversial in her role. She wasn't spectucular either though. I always think of her as a victim of the dynasty, and of the roles of dynastic marriage.
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That's a really good way to put it. Because whe WAS victimized in SO many ways by the Romanovs. And Especially by virtue of her position and the time she lived in.
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Yes, not only in her life, but also her death. She wasn't remembered all that well, and her husband didn't waste much time forgetting about her, although perhaps he had in her life. She wasn't sparkling like MA, nor a controversial beauty like Alexandra. She wasn't a bad person, she just didn't have the qualities that capture the eye of history. Yet, she did have all the qualities of a dynastic wife, and played her role well.But, those are too dull to get much attention perhaps. :-\
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For the posters who say Marie Alexandrovna was "victimized" by the Romanovs and "a pawn of the dynasty" please be specific with examples of how she was victimized and examples of how she was a pawn. I don't think you can, so I challenge you to support this claim.
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i don't think she was a pawn. alexander's parents opposed the marriage but he insisted upon it until they agreed. theirs was not a dynastic marriage.
the reason for all those kids was not the need for heirs (i think that would have stopped at the heir and a couple of spares - maria more than did her duty in that department), but alexander's desire for more children and maybe his strong desire to fulfil his dynastic duties?
however, she was a victim of her husband's infidelities and a somewhat lack of respect. i mean, i read somewhere that he treated her respectfully till she died (face to face) but there's nothing respectful about installing your mistress in your wife's house. and i'm sure, no matter what she said, even if she suggested it, she didn't like it. and he shouldn't have accepted her suggestion.
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I absolutely agree regarding the dynastic marriage element. There's was definitely a love match, on both sides, and they were very happy together for a long time. There wasn't really anything that significant about Marie's status and, in fact, there were rumors that she and her brother Alexander (founder of the Battenberg line) weren't the children of their father. Despite this, AII was determined to have her and no one else. The letters and diary entries that exist and which are quoted in books such as Romanov Autumn are very touching.
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i don't think she was a pawn. alexander's parents opposed the marriage but he insisted upon it until they agreed. theirs was not a dynastic marriage.
the reason for all those kids was not the need for heirs (i think that would have stopped at the heir and a couple of spares - maria more than did her duty in that department), but alexander's desire for more children and maybe his strong desire to fulfil his dynastic duties?
however, she was a victim of her husband's infidelities and a somewhat lack of respect. i mean, i read somewhere that he treated her respectfully till she died (face to face) but there's nothing respectful about installing your mistress in your wife's house. and i'm sure, no matter what she said, even if she suggested it, she didn't like it. and he shouldn't have accepted her suggestion.
I don't think she was a pawn either. My statement that she was victimized is in keeping with the statement above. I totally agree with this though it is still strictly my opinion. As a woman living in her day and age, she was also a victim of her circumstance, IMO As an Empress of Russia, she certainly couldn't just get up and walk out of her marriage because her husband was unfaithful. Even though he was practically a bigamist by the end of his life.
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For the posters who say Marie Alexandrovna was "victimized" by the Romanovs and "a pawn of the dynasty" please be specific with examples of how she was victimized and examples of how she was a pawn. I don't think you can, so I challenge you to support this claim.
Well, I think the facts speak for themselves. Many tsars had mistresses, and certainly she would have been naive not to expect that. But, it is clear that the devotion of Alexander II to his mistress extended beyond the norm, and that he really ignored her at the end of her life, when she was moreover, not well. I didn't say she was so much a victim of the Romanovs, or even of her husband ( in later years to be sure, the early years of their marriage were very happy), but of dynastic marriage. Of course, her marriage started out as a love match, but it became dynastic, especially towards the end. That's an interesting contrast with the facts of dynastic marriages ( that started out dynastically) that ended up personally happy, such as Alexander III and MF and George V and Queen Mary.
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Many Tsars did have mistresses but none had so boldly acted the way AII did. IMO, any woman would feel victimized by the lack of consideration AII had for his wife, knowing how ill she was and the respect accorded to her at least for bearing him so many children in addition to her ailing health. To me, this in and of itself made MA a victim. She certainly couldn't have changed it. :)
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What would you have a virile man like Alexander II do? Remain celibate until Marie A. died in an unknown number of years. The marriages that have been cited, Alex III and Mf, Nicholas II and AF, George and Mary were all still physically strong. It makes quite a difference.
Alexander II was sovereign emperor and autocrat. He could have easily divorced Marie when the marriage became one in name only, and married anyone. There might have been a scandal, but that would have blown over. Marie would have been seen back to Hesse, or off the the Crimea, no doubt financially cared for and maybe even with an imperial title, but she would have no longer been empress. That Alexander didn't divorce her but treated her with respect and honors right up until the end is significant as to how he felt about her. Catherine was moved into the Winter Palace only for a very short time before the empress died, and, contrary to the myth, she and her children weren't installed over the empress' rooms.
In a marriage, there are two people involved. One must also take into account Alexander's feelings as well as Marie's. I am sure neither wanted the situtation, but it existed and both made an attempt to accomodate each other under the circumstances. If Marie was a victim, she was a victim of her disease and Alexander was not responsible for that. I think Alexander deserves some sympathy also.
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Certainly they both deserve sympathy. And you did raise an interesting point, that MA could very well have been divorced by her husband but he did not. But certainly you didn't take into account that this act on AII part may have been for more than just respect for his wife. (i.e. political, image, his children). He was already open to much criticism and assassination.
And as far as AII being virile and not waiting for his wife to die makes him sound awfully callous toward a woman who stood loyally behind her husband and at one time shared a deep love with him. And IMO, AII was not a callous man. :)
I chose to view this from what I think MA's perspective essentially may have been, being a woman myself, and as to how she might have felt during this time as Empress. Certainly had it been the other way around, MA would have been expected to be celibate.
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Then we have a difference of opinion. I think the fact that he didn't put her aside or force himself on her shows he was anything but callous. He had enough respect for her to find his physical needs elsewhere while at the same time maintain his friendship and respect for her. And do we really have enough information to know what Marie was feeling. Maybe it did hurt her, or maybe she accomodated herself to the situtation. In any case both chose to go on with their lives without the rancor, hatred, namecalling, and scene making that recent royals have demonstrated in similair circumstances. I give them both great credit.
People do fall out of love. Today they divorce. Alexander chose not to take that course. Does this mean he was a bad man because he found love with another woman?
And while Marie might have been expected to remain celibate if it had been Alexander who was ill most of the time and unable to fulfill his duties as a husband, it doesn't mean she would have. In her case I suspect she would have, but there were plenty of other royal women who found "love" in other places than their husband's arms.
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Well, I have already conceded to your point that AII was NOT a bad man. IMO by any stretch of the imagination. And you do make a good point that they went about their business with dignity without the hatred normal couples breaking up would have.
You are right that certainly many women found love in other places if their husbands weren't interested (or even if they were! ;))
It's just my opintion that it must have been very difficult for MA and she may not have taken it as well as everybody was led to believe. It certainly didn't help her health.
And while we agree to disagree, i find your thoughts in the last post very thought provoking.
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What we're talking here is biology, sexual politics, and the simple fact that mating for life is not always going to work.
To begin with, if a couple--married or otherwise--that has been previously sexually compatible, or at least sexually active, at some point becomes sexually inactive when one of the partners is no longer sexually active, why should the other partner be expected to become celibate as well?
Second, it is a sad fact that women from that period often became worn out from frequent childbearing and were no longer sexually attractive to their husbands. Fortunately--in my opinion--divorce has become much less stigmatized and today's laws are far more geared toward dealing with such situations so that each party, quite literally, has their "day in court."
Finally, the concept of successfully mating for life is in all too many situations a romanticized myth. While many people do take their marriage vows seriously and are in it "for the long haul," a great many more simply don't have what it takes in terms of psychological and/or spiritual foundation to remain happily committed--and faithful--to one person for the rest of their lives.
I wouldn't be too harsh on Alexander II. He was behaving within the standard that was typical of that time for all men, be they tsars or private citizens. In addition, our information about his first marriage is limited; who can say with complete certainty what goes on within a relationship and when and why the erosion begins?
That being said, I want to also express empathy for Maria Alexandrovna. To be rejected at any level is heartbreaking; to be rejected publicly, for all the world to gossip about, is a humiliation beyond description.
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And lor_c, if I didn't find your posts interesting and thought provoking I wouldn't bother to try and debate with you. It is fun, isn't it. Thanks for making it interesting.
And for Janet_W: Yes, it is sad. It is too bad she was trapped in her situtation by custom and was unable to make a life for herself on her own terms. She had to keep up the facade, but I admire her for her good sense and dignity of character.
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Some bits about MA from Romanov Autumn:
"'His son [AII], despite only spending one day at Darmstadt, found his attention drawn to the Princess because she was not very well treated, and the Emperor [NI] quite understands how this would heighten the interest his son already felt for her..." (this from the Austrian Ambassador to St Petersburg)
'The first months were an ordeal. Marie was homesick and bewildered and in later years she told one of her ladies-in-waiting that she had often been forced to hide her tears, opening ventilation slats in the window so that the cold air...would take the redness from her eyes. As shy as her father, she was too withdrawn to make a good impression at a Court where social skills were all-important....The Tsarevich was everything she could have wanted in a husband, and after the wedding she and Alexander were partners as well as lovers...she shared her husband's dream of enacting real reform...Alexander trusted her judgement. They build up their own circle of friends, and as Alexander relied on Marie...to support him in his work, so she reliedon him to guide her into society, and give her confidence. The Russian historian Tatichev described these as 'years of untroubled family happiness..' "
"As the 1850s drew to an end, Maria's health began to deteriorate. Like her mother, she suffered from tuberculosis; when she was twelve the disease had almost killed her, and the combined effects of the damp and cold climate...and her rapid succession of pregnancies were more than her body could bear...Alexander worried and consulted various doctors; nine months after the coronation, in May 1857, Maria gave birth to her seventh child, Sergei."
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Well, I think the facts speak for themselves. Many tsars had mistresses, and certainly she would have been naive not to expect that. But, it is clear that the devotion of Alexander II to his mistress extended beyond the norm, and that he really ignored her at the end of her life, when she was moreover, not well. I didn't say she was so much a victim of the Romanovs, or even of her husband ( in later years to be sure, the early years of their marriage were very happy), but of dynastic marriage. Of course, her marriage started out as a love match, but it became dynastic, especially towards the end. That's an interesting contrast with the facts of dynastic marriages ( that started out dynastically) that ended up personally happy, such as Alexander III and MF and George V and Queen Mary.
i don't think there is such thing as a marriage that starts as a lovematch and ends up dynastic.
alexander 2nd stayed with his wife at the end because in those times divorce was unheard of. and because he wasn't really a monster and could see how much harm that would do to her, who was already ill.
in short he didn't stay with her because of the dynastic factor rather the marriage factor.
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Understandably anybody would have craved more than just companionship at that point. Especially AII. It just seems on the surface that he threw her away for someone else when she wasn't useful to him in bed anymore. But it was oh so much more than that between them. Certainly until she died, they loved one another but he wasn't in love anymore.
But it really couldn't have been any sort of picnic for MA. As pointed out by Janet W. public humiliation really is the worst. However, MA always handled herself with dignity and grace, imo and I so admire her for this.
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Hello Everyone,
I would like to ask the questions:
"Do you think it's possible that Alexander and Maria came to a mutual concensis that they would continue a non-sexual marriage since Maria was ill and probably 'worn-out' physically?"........
She had tuberculosis, a dibilitating disease, and lived mostly away from St. Petersburg, so I've heard. She was often in the Crimea and the French and Italian Rivieras for her health.
She had provided the dynasty with more than enough heirs and now she just wanted to relax.
Did she involve herself in Empress activities (balls & banquets & chartiable events) or just retire from public life altogether?
Another thought occurs: All her pictures and paintings show her unsmiling an depressed looking. Was she ill at the time of these pictures?
Also: How did she get along with Maria Feodorovna, Maria Pavlovna and Alexandra Iosefovna??
Just some thoughts that occurred to me while reading all your interesting and informative posts.....
Larry
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They might have had a tacit arrangement to end the physical side of the marriage. The problem was, Alexander fell deeply in love with 'Katia' and this was the source of the heartbreak.
She seems to have pretty much removed herself from public life--it was never something she enjoyed being temperamentally ill-suited to it and in ill health much of her life.
She always had an air of fragility about her and since her ill-health seems to have dogged her from childhood, it wouldn't be surprising if at the actual times of the photos and portraits she was ill at those particular periods. She was never a robust person at any time.
Apparently she wasn't too keen on MP--that's the impression given--and didn't think the marriage between her and Vladimir would come off due to Marie's refusal to convert. Alexander seems to have been the one who encouraged his son in that matter.
I would think that her relationship with MF was a good one. Her firstborn, 'Nixa', was very much in love with her and enthused over his fiancee to his mother. That had to warm the heart of any devoted parent. Dagmar also rushed to his side when she was ill and remained devotedly by his side. In addition, MA wanted the engagement between Dagmar and Alexander, encouraged it, in fact, so she wouldn't have held the switching of fiancees against her. MF brought lightness and joy into the house--as well as grandchildren--and was one of those angriest over AII's flaunting of his mistress and 2nd family-as well as his haste in remarrying after MA died.
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Hello Larry and welcome!
Her pictures do show a woman who was very ill and "worn out". Both from having so many children and also from the TB.
I believe, though I am not positive ??? she carried out her duties as Empress in the beginning (balls, charities, etc.) but by the time of the birth of GD Sergei, I think she was very ill and had basically retired from public life in that capacity. :)
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Hello Ella and Lori,
Thank you for your very quick and informative replies.
I, too, have always admired Maria Alexandrovna. And, Maria Feodorovna is my favourite royal in history.
Also, I have thrilled to the stories of Alexandra Iosifovna and Maria Pavlovna, both of whom have been discribed in various books I read as - "The Grandest of the Grand Duchesses". Ya gotta love their style!!
Larry
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She seems to have pretty much removed herself from public life--it was never something she enjoyed being temperamentally ill-suited to it and in ill health much of her life.
MA reminds me very much of Alix in this point. I wonder if it was a Hessian thing? ???
As far as her health, didn't her own mother contract TB as well?
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Certainly, it is easy to judge Alexander II, without considering his side of the story. I think the way he acted with Katia did, even at the time not look like just another ruler who had a mistress ( which made it worse). If he had gone out and had mistresses, after his wife was ill, and their marriage was no longer the love match it had once been, that would not have been surprising. Most rulers did, and MA would no doubt have just accepted it ( although she accepted it anyway), although it might have hurt her more than some wives, who didn't have that love at first. Surely it was easier for royal wives to be bothered about infidelity when the marriage had started out a love match, then it was if both of them were indifferent and just knew the marriage was dynastic.
Alexander II, though was clearly more committed to Katia than most rulers would have been a mistress, in fact he even married her not so long after his wife's death, which created some scandal. He found the love of his life with her, so that makes his actions toward MA more understandable, because of the love he found, but also perhaps more hurtful, because he very much loved Katia and it wasn't a casual thing. MA did the best she could. I think he stuck with her because divorce was such a disgrace, and it would have made his actions look worse, because divorce wasn't the norm, while infidelity was. A divorce would have hurt both of them, although the situation otherwise did as well. In the end, there are never easy answers to this sort of thing, and I am sure that both MA and Alexander II would have thought that. They found the answer that best suited their day and age, and their status. I would think though, that MA was more the victim of it than her husband. But, I think she would never have thought of herself that way. I
t reminds me of ( if anyone is familiar with Emily Dickinson), of Austin Dickinson, her brother and his mistress Mabel Loomis Todd, who he also found later in life, and she was younger. Their affair caused great hurt to Susan Dickinson his wife, but she was older and made herself an unattractive wife in some ways. She was bitter, though whereas MA was not. At any rate, it also caused great scandal and left lots of hard questions, which reminds me of this. In their case as well, divorce was not really an option, although no remarriage happened in that case, because his wife outlived him. Sorry, if that is way off topic, but I think in that era, before divorce was socially acceptable for the most part, these kinds of circumstances arose frequently, and raised hard to answer questions.
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Hello Everyone,
I would like to ask the questions:
"Do you think it's possible that Alexander and Maria came to a mutual concensis that they would continue a non-sexual marriage since Maria was ill and probably 'worn-out' physically?"........
She had tuberculosis, a dibilitating disease, and lived mostly away from St. Petersburg, so I've heard. She was often in the Crimea and the French and Italian Rivieras for her health.
She had provided the dynasty with more than enough heirs and now she just wanted to relax.
Did she involve herself in Empress activities (balls & banquets & chartiable events) or just retire from public life altogether?
Another thought occurs: All her pictures and paintings show her unsmiling an depressed looking. Was she ill at the time of these pictures?
Also: How did she get along with Maria Feodorovna, Maria Pavlovna and Alexandra Iosefovna??
Just some thoughts that occurred to me while reading all your interesting and informative posts.....
Larry
i believe the doctors pretty much told maria alexandrovna to withdraw from dynastic duties so yes it was a medical thing.
maybe she agreed with the opinion that seems to be common even today among older people. my grandmother still bugs me today with a convinced voice that if 'my boyfriend won't get his needs fulfilled with me he will find somewhere else to do so'. that general opinion that a man is a man and he has to have sex, as a biological need and that that excuses any infidelity.
maybe maria agreed with this and maybe she didn't mind having him sleep around since even today there are women who excuse this kind of behaviour with the common 'he's a man, after all and it's just sex' argument.
however, alexander did more than just have sex, imo. and even a tolerant wife would have been hurt and humiliated.
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i believe the doctors pretty much told maria alexandrovna to withdraw from dynastic duties so yes it was a medical thing.
maybe she agreed with the opinion that seems to be common even today among older people. my grandmother still bugs me today with a convinced voice that if 'my boyfriend won't get his needs fulfilled with me he will find somewhere else to do so'. that general opinion that a man is a man and he has to have sex, as a biological need and that that excuses any infidelity.
maybe maria agreed with this and maybe she didn't mind having him sleep around since even today there are women who excuse this kind of behaviour with the common 'he's a man, after all and it's just sex' argument.
however, alexander did more than just have sex, imo. and even a tolerant wife would have been hurt and humiliated.
Ilyala, you have a pretty progressive grandmother. ;)
I agree that the hurt and humiliation MA experienced went beyond mere sexual infidelity. A man can't have two masters, so it's been said. And IMO, MA felt this was infidelity of his heart as well. Even if their relationship took a direction that some might view as: well, he treated her well even after...", it still would have been a no-win situation.
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Ilyala, you have a pretty progressive grandmother. ;)
i don't think it's progressive i think it's chauvinist. the woman is supposed to sit home and cook and raise the kids while her husband 'fulfils his needs'. the excuse works only for men (cause women do not have this need) and it's basically a way for the man to say 'you were having a headache and i didn't want to impose on you with my biological needs so i went and slept with someone else'. makes it sound normal and completely no wrong. the man was actually thinking of his wife when he cheated on her!
actually i think it's a medieval way of thinking. it's the excuse men used to cheat on their wives for ages.
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I agree totally. I just meant my grandmother would have told me the opposite! (But then again, my grandmother came from a very strict upbringing where sex was considered dirty - even in marriage.) ;)
But truly, I think chauvinistic was applicable to all royal males (males in general) in that day and age. Just my opinion. I'm sure there were some exceptions (i.e. AIII, NII). But every Tsar (and Tsarina if you include Peter the Great's wife and Catherine II) before them was unfaithful.
In my opinion, AII took it to a new degree.
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That is why today in most western countries divorce is a common, everyday occurrence. Are you really suggesting that when two people no longer find fulfillment with one another and the marriage has become just a word that they should stick together in the name of something as nebulous as fidelity. In eastern cultures men could take multiple wives which pretty much took care of the situtation. At least MA remained empress with all the honors, priviledges, and respect that went along with it. Her every physical need was catered to. If she felt her emotional needs were not then she should have taken steps to end the marriage or find a lover on her own. She was treated much better than most women in that situation would have been. Alexander could have had the marriage annulled, gotten a divorce, even treated her with contempt and disdain, or, abused her. Marriage among the nobility in the 19th and 20th century never meant fidlelity. Bed-hopping, mistresses, lovers, etc. was the norm, just as it was with the lower classes. It was only the middle class that attempted to make people adhere to a strict moral code that never really worked, excpet to bring misery to people because they were stuck in it. And marriage is a contract in which both sides agree to fulfill certain obligations to the other. When one side can no longer fulfill those obligations or no longer does so, then the other partner has the right to ignore his/her obligations. It may not be romantic or sentimental but very little in the human condition is. Only in romance novels.
MA was a true Christian. She forgave those who transgressed against her. It is too bad her children were not so religious.
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It all comes down to what you believe I guess. I know MA would not have found fault with her husband, personally. She actually thought it was fine, or at least seemed to say so publicly, although what else could she say? She wasn't the type of person to identify herself as any sort of victim, and maybe since she was ill, so she didn't care as much as otherwise. Her own perspective on everything remains a bit of an enigma, even she certainly seemed to forgive him, like any dutiful 19th century wife. But, people at the time seemed to find fault with Alexander's actions, and that was at the time, when standards were different from today. To me, that has always raised questions, that it is not only from a modern perspective that he might stand out in his devotion to his mistress, which was more than a casual affair.
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I would have to do some research on the subject. The children, of course, for the most part took offense out of love for their mother. The court and the public who knew about it, I think, didn't disapprove the affairs so much because it was an affair, but because it was permanent. If Alexander had treated his affair with Catherine as a casual liaison I don't think it would have bothered people too much. His devotion to her however made her a player in the court game and thus she had enemies and supporters. She might have ended up empress, with all the power and position that implied.
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That is why today in most western countries divorce is a common, everyday occurrence. Are you really suggesting that when two people no longer find fulfillment with one another and the marriage has become just a word that they should stick together in the name of something as nebulous as fidelity. In eastern cultures men could take multiple wives which pretty much took care of the situtation. At least MA remained empress with all the honors, priviledges, and respect that went along with it. Her every physical need was catered to. If she felt her emotional needs were not then she should have taken steps to end the marriage or find a lover on her own. She was treated much better than most women in that situation would have been. Alexander could have had the marriage annulled, gotten a divorce, even treated her with contempt and disdain, or, abused her. Marriage among the nobility in the 19th and 20th century never meant fidlelity. Bed-hopping, mistresses, lovers, etc. was the norm, just as it was with the lower classes. It was only the middle class that attempted to make people adhere to a strict moral code that never really worked, excpet to bring misery to people because they were stuck in it. And marriage is a contract in which both sides agree to fulfill certain obligations to the other. When one side can no longer fulfill those obligations or no longer does so, then the other partner has the right to ignore his/her obligations. It may not be romantic or sentimental but very little in the human condition is. Only in romance novels.
MA was a true Christian. She forgave those who transgressed against her. It is too bad her children were not so religious.
What a way to view the sanctity of marrige. when one wears out, get a new one. Certainly marriage is based on more than just physical. I agree that royal and aristocratic marriage justified their infidelities in this way, but it makes it no less demeaning or wrong IMO. MA was terminally ill. whether it was amicable or not, she was truly heartbroken about his second marriage and the embarrassment it caused her and the family. Certainly it isn't only romance novels that suggest that couples stay together in sickness and in health. The marriage ceremony doesn't say stay together as long as each are useful. ;)
Nevertheless, AII could have been by his wife's side and been supportive instead finding a new family to start. Or at least waited a respectable amount of time, knowing her time was limited, to mourn and grieve as the protocol of his day CALLED FOR especially somebody of his high rank.
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Evidently God approves. I can't recall all the details without consulting my Bible but I believe Abraham took another woman (her name escapes me) when his wife Sarah got old, and she gave her consent if I remember correctly. The Chinese, and other Asian cultures, allowed a man to take a wife, then have concubines. Very smart those Chinese. Muslim culture allows a man four wives, as long as he treats them equally, and easy divorce. Smart people those Arabs. I believe African rulers had multiple wives. Smart people those Zulus and Matebeles. How many wives does the King of Lesotho have now? Native American culture in the New World allowed a man to take multiple wives. Smart people those Sioux and Aztecs. These cultures just had a sensible view of marriage. It was necessary but why make it such a pain. Modern society is just returning to a sensible view of the institution. The Church made marriage a sacrement just so it could control people's lives, just like they tried to control all other aspects. Priest Power!!! Very rarely did it take into account the human factor.
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That is why today in most western countries divorce is a common, everyday occurrence. Are you really suggesting that when two people no longer find fulfillment with one another and the marriage has become just a word that they should stick together in the name of something as nebulous as fidelity. In eastern cultures men could take multiple wives which pretty much took care of the situtation. At least MA remained empress with all the honors, priviledges, and respect that went along with it. Her every physical need was catered to. If she felt her emotional needs were not then she should have taken steps to end the marriage or find a lover on her own. She was treated much better than most women in that situation would have been. Alexander could have had the marriage annulled, gotten a divorce, even treated her with contempt and disdain, or, abused her. Marriage among the nobility in the 19th and 20th century never meant fidlelity. Bed-hopping, mistresses, lovers, etc. was the norm, just as it was with the lower classes. It was only the middle class that attempted to make people adhere to a strict moral code that never really worked, excpet to bring misery to people because they were stuck in it. And marriage is a contract in which both sides agree to fulfill certain obligations to the other. When one side can no longer fulfill those obligations or no longer does so, then the other partner has the right to ignore his/her obligations. It may not be romantic or sentimental but very little in the human condition is. Only in romance novels.
MA was a true Christian. She forgave those who transgressed against her. It is too bad her children were not so religious.
i do not believe that you should stay with someone no matter what. however, i believe that when someone does not please you anymore and you don't want to stick around, they should find out from you not from the naked woman in your bed. i believe in leaving, not in cheating. thank god nowadays divorce and break-ups are no longer a stigma on the person who does them and this kind of belief is applicable.
i agree that in those days it was much more difficult to apply such a belief. but i also believe that alexander 2nd at least owed it to his wife to be more discreet. the public humiliation was huge and i'm sure it contributed to her illness. publicly flaunting a mistress is not a way to show respect to your wife. in any book.
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Evidently God approves. I can't recall all the details without consulting my Bible but I believe Abraham took another woman (her name escapes me) when his wife Sarah got old, and she gave her consent if I remember correctly. The Chinese, and other Asian cultures, allowed a man to take a wife, then have concubines. Very smart those Chinese. Muslim culture allows a man four wives, as long as he treats them equally, and easy divorce. Smart people those Arabs. I believe African rulers had multiple wives. Smart people those Zulus and Matebeles. How many wives does the King of Lesotho have now? Native American culture in the New World allowed a man to take multiple wives. Smart people those Sioux and Aztecs. These cultures just had a sensible view of marriage. It was necessary but why make it such a pain. Modern society is just returning to a sensible view of the institution. The Church made marriage a sacrement just so it could control people's lives, just like they tried to control all other aspects. Priest Power!!! Very rarely did it take into account the human factor.
please name me one culture that allows a woman to have multiple husbands at the same time they have these dozens of wives and i'll agree with them.
i will never agree to a religion where the man can sleep around while the woman stays home and cooks. and if you do, i'm afraid i can only see you as a chauvinist. no offense. please feel free to prove me wrong.
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It's also rather hard to compare the Old Testament dynamics as well as the cultures mentioned w/19th century Imperial Russia. The Tsar was hard on other members of the Romanov family who cheated and had mistresses that he didn't approve of (i.e. GD Nicholas Constantinovich) but failed to see the hypocrisy of it. The Tsar was the equivalent of God, not just God's representative, in the eyes of his people. Certainly he should have set a better example if not only for his people for his own family and their reputation.
True, it's easier nowadays to walk away from an unworkable marriage. But by most accounts AII & MA still cared for each other. IMO, he had already made vows w/his wife and should have resisted the temptation of the much younger Katia. At least until he was a widower. Many men (and women) have temptaion in marriage. Does it justify starting a whole new family under the nose of the spouse you already have?
And as ilyala said, it really IS an extreme double standard in cultures where polygamy is possible.
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Yes, it was an unusual twist that his original marriage had been a love match, and that he did still care for his wife. It was also unusual that he fell so much in love with his mistress, although I certainly think no one would have commented had he just taken a mistress, or a few. It was indeed his very public devotion that was the issue at least to me, which is strange when you contrast that with the fact I do believe he wasn't bitter towards MA at all. In most cases, there was more bitterness. He did as he pleased because he was tsar, correct, and also because he might have viewed it as the not such a bad solution if his wife didn't seem to be bothered, although I'd be surprised if she wasn't privately. I believe he would have made Katia empress if he could have, and who knows what might have happened had he lived longer.
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I think it was the consensus among the family after MA died, when AII elevated Katia to Princess that the next step would surely be Empress. This caused a complete uproar to say the very least. But AII supposedly promised the Princess title and married to legitimize her and the children. It wouldn't surprise me if had promised much more.
I agree that he thought he was above etiquette and even his own policies because he was Tsar and that was the end of it. IMO he was well aware of the effect the new "family" was having on his dying wife but seemed unable to stem the tide of emotions and what he had already unleashed for Katia. IMO, as I said earlier, it has all the earmarks of some sort of mid-life crisis for him. And what he perceived to be the "love" of his life was probably somebody who was able to stir emotions in him that he hadn't felt in a long time and as a result he thought himself completely hooked. Although people do fall out of love everyday, a genuine marital love transcends illness and absence of sex. Sex and intimacy aren't always the same thing. So it's just hard for me to understand his mindset. The absolute head over heels feeling he had for MA simply left him because she couldn't perform? I have a hard time with this.
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Challenge accepted. Polandry (the custom of a woman having more than one husband) was common in Tibet, Zanskar, Nepal, Sri Lanka, India, Mongolia, China, subsahara Africa, Brazil, Hawaii, and in many indigenous Amerindian communities. While not as common as polygamy, it was accepted practice in many places. I believe there is a myth in the classical world about the Amazons.
Only the so-called revealed religions--Judaism, Christianity and Islam--prohibit polandry. Islam prohibits it but allows polygamy. The other two insist on monogamy.
Women stayed home and cooked and cared for the children (and did even more) in all societies--Kinder, Kuche, Kirche. Polygamy had its advantages. For example: in the Dakota tribe of North America, also called the Sioux, men had two functions--to put food on the table and fight off enemies. All else was the province of the woman. And there was a lot of work to do in and outside the teepee. So, a smart Sioux wife would sugget to her husband he take a second wife and sometimes a third wife. Since she had to live and work with that wife, then usually she suggested he take a look at a sister or a cousin. The first wife was always the boss wife and had rights but this arrangement meant companionship, shared labor and child rearing. And it had advantages for the husband. A very civilized arrangement.
Alexander II and Marie A were practicing what is known as polyamory. This is the desire, practice, or acceptance of having more than one loving, intimate relationship at a time, with the full knowledge and consent by everyone involved. This means the partners respect one partners wish to have a second, or further meaningful relationship and accomodate these wishes alongside their existing relationship. They were being very civilized with one another. Considering how else it might have turned out, I admire them. And, since it was none of my business, I don't think my opinion matters one way or the other. Making her empress is a political matter and thus people could express views and opinions. On the private matter it was none of their business either.
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It's also rather hard to compare the Old Testament dynamics as well as the cultures mentioned w/19th century Imperial Russia. The Tsar was hard on other members of the Romanov family who cheated and had mistresses that he didn't approve of (i.e. GD Nicholas Constantinovich) but failed to see the hypocrisy of it. The Tsar was the equivalent of God, not just God's representative, in the eyes of his people. Certainly he should have set a better example if not only for his people for his own family and their reputation.
True, it's easier nowadays to walk away from an unworkable marriage. But by most accounts AII & MA still cared for each other. IMO, he had already made vows w/his wife and should have resisted the temptation of the much younger Katia. At least until he was a widower. Many men (and women) have temptaion in marriage. Does it justify starting a whole new family under the nose of the spouse you already have?
And as ilyala said, it really IS an extreme double standard in cultures where polygamy is possible.
what i was trying to say actually is this: if alexander couldn't stand not having all his needs fulfilled by his wife and just had to get a mistress, he should have done it in a more delicate way. i understand that in those days divorcing her would have hurt her probably at least just as much. however, flaunting a mistress is a public humiliation, no matter if the wife understands or not your need for a mistress. he should have had the respect of creating a safe house for them, some place where only he and his closest friends knew about, and go there to be with her.
i cannot imagine a devoted wife, a wife that actually cares what her husband does (i agree there are wives who don't) not being hurt by this woman living in her house. i cannot imagine her not hurting seeing the hidden smiles of the people around her. the whispered conversations about the 'poor sick woman lying in bed' and 'that hottie next door'. a wife that might tolerate her husband coming home late at night is still hurt by that, if for no other reason than the society's bad mouth. no-one likes to be publicly humiliated just like i'm sure that james wouldn't like hearing rumours about his wife/girlfriend cheating on him (whether the rumours are true or not). because while cheating is bad in itself, public cheating is a humiliation that i don't think anyone wants.
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Challenge accepted. Polandry (the custom of a woman having more than one husband) was common in Tibet, Zanskar, Nepal, Sri Lanka, India, Mongolia, China, subsahara Africa, Brazil, Hawaii, and in many indigenous Amerindian communities. While not as common as polygamy, it was accepted practice in many places. I believe there is a myth in the classical world about the Amazons.
Only the so-called revealed religions--Judaism, Christianity and Islam--prohibit polandry. Islam prohibits it but allows polygamy. The other two insist on monogamy.
Women stayed home and cooked and cared for the children (and did even more) in all societies--Kinder, Kuche, Kirche. Polygamy had its advantages. For example: in the Dakota tribe of North America, also called the Sioux, men had two functions--to put food on the table and fight off enemies. All else was the province of the woman. And there was a lot of work to do in and outside the teepee. So, a smart Sioux wife would sugget to her husband he take a second wife and sometimes a third wife. Since she had to live and work with that wife, then usually she suggested he take a look at a sister or a cousin. The first wife was always the boss wife and had rights but this arrangement meant companionship, shared labor and child rearing. And it had advantages for the husband. A very civilized arrangement.
Alexander II and Marie A were practicing what is known as polyamory. This is the desire, practice, or acceptance of having more than one loving, intimate relationship at a time, with the full knowledge and consent by everyone involved. This means the partners respect one partners wish to have a second, or further meaningful relationship and accomodate these wishes alongside their existing relationship. They were being very civilized with one another. Considering how else it might have turned out, I admire them. And, since it was none of my business, I don't think my opinion matters one way or the other. Making her empress is a political matter and thus people could express views and opinions. On the private matter it was none of their business either.
you might be surprised but i don't believe a woman should dominate her husband just as i don't believe a husband should dominate his wife. i believe in equal rights - equal partnerships. i believe in a relationship where they both agree that if one of them cheat they have just opened the door for the other one cheating. if the man is to have more wives, the woman should be entitled to more husbands. and the other way around too. that's the kind of society i would agree with.
congratulations on your extensive knowledge and i'm sorry if i came off too rough earlier.
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Whatever you or I or anyone thinks about a man and a woman livng together in marriage is totally irelevant to anything. It is just our opinion. Why is it so difficult for us to accept that Alexander no longer loved Marie A. He still repected her and had no desire to hurt her, but he wanted his life with Catherine. Today, the two (Alex and MA) would have simply agreed to a divorce and gone on with their seperate lives. Why the two did not do so in this case is debatable, but they chose not to. To condemn one or the other is futile. It was the life they chose. Pointing fingers is unfair, and unkind.
Catherine did not live in MA house. She had her own. The tsar visited her there often, and in the last year when he became a target for the terrorist this became too much of a securtiy risk. So Catherine and the children were brought into the vast Winter Palace. For safety reasons, not because Alexader wanted to hurt MA. They were NOT installed over the empresses rooms so she could hear them. That is a MYTH told by spiteful tongues.
I don't have any idea why MA didn't take lovers of her own. Maybe she didn't want any, maybe she couldn't find any that suited her. However, she was as free to do so as was Alexander, and had she done so no one could have stopped her.
And again, I will repeat, that if Alexander had really wanted to be hard, hurtful, and unkind to MA he could have annulled the marriage, sent her back to little, dull Hesse-Darmstadt, given her very little but a pittance to live on, and treated her in any number of cruel and spiteful ways. (In Germany, one Hannoverian locked his wife up in a castle for thirty some odd years). That he didn't do so speaks volumes for his character.
This was not a Barbara Cartland romance novel in which undying love wins out and they all live happily everafter with swelling violins in the background. It is real life and how two people in a very human position dealt with it.
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Whatever you or I or anyone thinks about a man and a woman livng together in marriage is totally irelevant to anything. It is just our opinion. Why is it so difficult for us to accept that Alexander no longer loved Marie A. He still repected her and had no desire to hurt her, but he wanted his life with Catherine. Today, the two (Alex and MA) would have simply agreed to a divorce and gone on with their seperate lives. Why the two did not do so in this case is debatable, but they chose not to. To condemn one or the other is futile. It was the life they chose. Pointing fingers is unfair, and unkind.
Catherine did not live in MA house. She had her own. The tsar visited her there often, and in the last year when he became a target for the terrorist this became too much of a securtiy risk. So Catherine and the children were brought into the vast Winter Palace. For safety reasons, not because Alexader wanted to hurt MA. They were NOT installed over the empresses rooms so she could hear them. That is a MYTH told by spiteful tongues.
I don't have any idea why MA didn't take lovers of her own. Maybe she didn't want any, maybe she couldn't find any that suited her. However, she was as free to do so as was Alexander, and had she done so no one could have stopped her.
And again, I will repeat, that if Alexander had really wanted to be hard, hurtful, and unkind to MA he could have annulled the marriage, sent her back to little, dull Hesse-Darmstadt, given her very little but a pittance to live on, and treated her in any number of cruel and spiteful ways. (In Germany, one Hannoverian locked his wife up in a castle for thirty some odd years). That he didn't do so speaks volumes for his character.
This was not a Barbara Cartland romance novel in which undying love wins out and they all live happily everafter with swelling violins in the background. It is real life and how two people in a very human position dealt with it.
i'm afraid this answer is not as good as the ones you have given before.
1. to get this over with: "(In Germany, one Hannoverian locked his wife up in a castle for thirty some odd years)." - that was george of hannover, best known to the world as king george 1st of england. he neglected his wife in such a manner that she took a lover. when he caught her he imprisoned her and divorced her and then went on to his mistresses. to me that is just another proof of how double standards worked in those days for both women and for men.
2. "It was the life they chose." No
maria alexandrovna was recommended by her doctors to stop having children. because of her frail health and her numerous births, the doctors pretty much told her that another pregnancy was a death sentence. in those days that meant that maria alexandrovna had to stop having sex altogether in order to avoid a pregnancy. she did not choose that, although i'm sure a part of her felt relieved not about the lack of sex but about no more pregnancies. she could not have taken a lover because that from her point of view was the same thing as sleeping with her husband -> risk of pregnancy -> death.
i don't think they stopped loving each other, i think they stopped being in love with each other, which is a different matter. but what i was talking about was not the hurt of the woman that sees the man she loves cheating on her. i am talking about the humiliation of having everyone know that your husband is doing someone else. and he's doing it in the same house you live in. i didn't mention the rumour about ekaterina living in the rooms above maria's cause i don't know whether that's true or not and i tend to think it's not. but she was in the same house. and no matter how tolerant maria alexandrovna was about her husband's extra-marital affairs, i'm sure she hated it when:
- her children, angry about the situation, i'm sure mentioned something to her: 'the bastard, i can't believe he's doing this to you'
- some friend came and said with a compassionate voice: 'oh poor you, i can't believe this is happening'
- she heard whispered rumours about ekaterina and her children
- that embarrassing situation when you walk into a room and everyone suddenly stops talking
etc
that is humiliation and no-one, i'm sure, would like that. that is what i'm talking about. not the fact that she couldn't have sex anymore so her husband went on to have sex with another woman. but just so you know, i repeat: she was not free to take a lover. i am quite sure she was not willing to take a lover (especially in light of her tainted past - her mother's infidelities - i'm sure like many other children of philanderers, she had developed into a very moral person). this was not an open relationship. this was she being ill and he sleeping around and not even discreet enough to do it behind her back.
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This is all mere speculation on your part. If you can quote specific evidence from her letters, diaries, second person quotes, etc. that Marie A was humiliated or hurt, then I can accept this reasoning. Until then this seems just to be your estimation of how she MUST have felt.
That her sons felt their father had betrayed their mother is a laugh, coming from some of the most promiscuous men to ever inhabit a royal family---the kettle calling the pot black is rich. Marie Feodorvona disliked the situtatuon because she feared Catherine would supplant her (Alexander II threatened to disinherit Alexander III if he and Marie continued with their outspoken criticism) not for any moral reasons. A woman who could marry her youngest daughter off to a well-known homosexual has no business judging anyone.
As for MA taking a lover herself, there are plenty of ways to have sex without risk of pregnancy. Besides, my point was not about sex, but about emotional support. She could have taken a "lover" who would have given her the same emotional support that Alexander was getting from Catherine. Plenty of women in those days did just that. She need not have "suffered" alone and in silence. I have no idea why she didn't nor will I speculate absent any proof. All I know is she and Alexander came to an arrangement and they both lived with it.
As I take it in your opinion both partners should have been unhappy and miserable in their marriage, for twenty or thirty years or more, just in the name of some notion like "fidelity."
And your main complaint seems to be that Alexander got away with the double standard. There has always been a double standard in the world. Alexander is not a fault for that. Anymore than he is at fault because the women he loved and married against opposition fell ill with a degenerative disease. It was the way it was and they both coped with it.
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Here's some showing some outside viewpoints---though QV was mother-in-law to Alexander & Marie's daughter Marie and thus Marie (Jr) was sister-in-law to the Crown Princess (Vicky):
CPss to QV 21 June 1880: 'You know how difficult it is to know the truth in family matters--and how many stories and lies are afloat always. The impression in St Ptersburg--and of most Russians abroad also diplomatists and foreigners who have visited the Court, is that the Empress suffered cruelly from her husband's infidelity and that she never uttered a murmur, complaint or reproach--nor ever mentioned the subject to a living soul, but died of a broken heart. Affie and Marie are convinced that she never knew the existence of this lady or of the children but that the Emperor was most tender and kind to her to the last. Russians have told me...that the children live at the Winter Palace etc. But one hears such very contradictory accounts that they leave one the option of believing the best and mildest versions which one had so much rather believe out of affection for the Emperor, who is so kind and amiable a man, and for the dignity and peace of the family.'
QV to CP 3 July 1880: 'With regard to what you say about the Emperor of Russia (which letter I have burned) [this would seem another letter during the almost 2 wk gap]. I have told you already what I know but since then I have heard more from a perfectly reliable source for it comes from Darmstadt (which please don't mention). It is that (which you also told me) the immorality in the highest circles is 'unfathomable' that the feeling towards the Emperor is disloyal and that his conduct leads to this. That it is so open and that that woman and her children lived in the Winter Palace and in the Palace at Zarsko! That the Emperor took every spare moment to go to her--even during the funeral ceremonies. Is it not too horrible? How can his children endure this? ....You say the youngest child was born at Livadia--that was last winter. But one was born there before! And one the very night the poor Grand Duchess Marie died. Is it not too disgusting? If I had been the Empress I would have refused to comply with such a request which is an insult--and would have left Russia. If such terrible things have to be done they ought to be hidden away out of sight--and the object be a person who could not pretend to appear. I own cela me revolte and I think no wife should submit to such an insult.'
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From The Romanovs by John van der Kiste:
"Never popular in Russia, she [MA] became less so over the years. Her failing health, her inability to bear the rigours of a northern winter and subsequent visits to...Darmstadt, a rather schoolmistress-like insistence that the obstacles which her husband met in his moods of black depression were there to be overcome, and above all a vaguely perceptible air of martyrdom, drove a wedge between them. Despite her Protestant birth she had become more ardently Orthodox, ready to fall under the influence of her father-confessor, Bashanov, bearing her humiliation with fortitude, finding compensation in her devotion to the Russian Church. She still worshipped her hsuband, but without understanding him. The once attractive, lively princess had become a sickly, pious, sentimental, querulous woman, often confined to her apartments for weeks. While there was no question of a public split, it left the Tsar open to temptation from a mistress, especially one intelligent and sympathetic enough to be something of a soulmate as well as one who could satisfy the desires of the flesh....Some saw a connection between the death of the son on whom the Tsar had pinned his hopes and the beginning of his extra-marital relations....'
'Soon after his return to Russia [from Paris, 1867] the Tsar established her in her own residence in St Petersburg, where neither his family nor the public could ignore the liaison any longer. The Tsarina knew that she no longer had his undivided attention, but she attached no importance to what she thought (or hoped) was mere infatuation. '
'The family was fiercely divided. His brothers...would not permit the least criticism of their sovereign, even in the msot intimate family circle, but their wives considered themselves unbound by any such restraint. AS for his sons, they were devoted to their mother and deeply resented the wound that the affair caused her. Apart from Alexis, who...evidently shared the same relaxed moral code [as his uncle Constantine whom he was extremely close to] saying he did not see why a mistress should create a gulf between father and son, and Paul, too young to understand but young enough to be shielded by the others from the unhappy state of their parents' marriage, they did not accept the situation. If the Tsarina had to recognize that this was no ordinary liaison, her sons were furious with this callous violation of their father's marriage vows, and the intense misery he was causing her. They refused to conceal their disapproval, and became increasingly aloof to him. Only their sister, Marie, who had always been especially close to her father, avoided taking sides...she could not find it in her heart to blame him for anything, believing that as their father and Sovereign he should be beyond criticism. '
Upon visiting Russia, Marie 'was aghast at finding Catherne...and her children installed in apartments directly above her mother, and the discovery precipitated a violent row with her father. Shaken by the loss of his last ally in the family, he hurriedly lleft for Gatchina...His daughter had evidently jolted his conscience, for he returned to St Petersburg every morning to enquire after his wife's health. '
After his remarriage there 'was nothing the Grand Dukes could do about the Tsar's order that they and their wives should dine with himself and the Princess...but the Grand Duchesses maintained their glacial reserve towards the woman whom they dubbed 'that scheming adventuress'. As the last Tsarina's eldest surviving child, and the one who had felt msot bitterly towards their father, the Tsarevich was particulary incensed. For the sake of good manners, like his brothers he was prepared to be civil if not courteous to her in person, but when she was not around he did not hesitate to denounce 'the outsider', whom he found both 'designing and immature'...He even talked of moving with his wife and children to her home country of Denmark though...it must have been no more than an idle threat.'
Grand Duchess Michael angrily told her husband "that she would 'never recognize that scheming adventuress' who had broken up the family and 'was plotting to ruin the empire'. "
At a magnificent State ball in early 1881, Madame de Rynkiewicz, wife of the Govenor of Warsaw found 'that she looked as though, apart from the Emperor, she found herself in an enemy camp. '
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Alexander II was the best tsar Russia had between Catherine II and the Revolution. If you all want to denigrate him just because he fell in love with another woman, fine, have at it. What a difference it might have made if he had lived out his Biblical span of life.
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Alexander II was the best tsar Russia had between Catherine II and the Revolution. If you all want to denigrate him just because he fell in love with another woman, fine, have at it. What a difference it might have made if he had lived out his Biblical span of life.
no-one denigrates alexander 2nd. we're just saying it as it is.
you think he had the right to be happy at whatever cost. i think he could have been happy in a more discreet manner without hurting his wife and alienating his hole family. let's just agree to disagree on this subject.
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Well, from those quotes, they seem to say that the family thought his behavior somewhat disgraceful at the least. If he had just had a mistress, that would most likely have not even been commented on, although his wife's illness might have made it stand out more. But, it would not have occasioned the kind of stuff that his affair with Katia did, all the divisiveness and scandal in the family. That's what I meant when I said the affair was not popular, and that it was not just any affair. Of course, those quotes also show that he was a man that was hard to criticize perhaps, and that people attempted to understand everything.
For MA, there was little to do but put up with it. She certainly didn't want a divorce, and I am sure never considered it. She didn't want a lover, and she was too worn anyway for that in terms of health, and I doubt she ever considered that. She certainly understood the rules of royal marriage, and perhaps with the way she was, would have understood her husband's need for something she could no longer give him, not so much physically, but even companionship, because she was quite ill and past her prime. Still, no matter what you say, she was at an unequal advantage in this situiation. She didn't have the choice or advantages her husband had. Given that there was no great estrangement between MA and Alexander, I can believe some of his original feeling was there, because I think the end of their love match in terms of feeling was growing apart because of MA no longer being what she once was, and then he fell so hard for Katia. Still, Alexander II was in way too deep, and no amount if examples from whatever culture can really excuse his choices.
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Alexander II was a giant among the pygamies of the last Romanovs. He was worth ten of any of his worthless sons and grandsons--the bigoted, neanderthal Alexander III with his bigoted, obtuse son, the immoral Vladimir and his womanizing sons, the corrupt Alexis with his fast women and slow ships, Sergei the closet homosexual and anti-semite, and Pavel who was a general who couldn't lead his men out of a wet paper bag, and there was Marie, herself married to an alcoholic womanizer, who let her own son be abused and then die a lonely death, and her daughters were no paragons of virture either. That they could have the unmitigated gall to point the finger at their father is laughable if not obscene. These corrupt, degenerate sons were nothing but millstones around the neck of the dynasty.
It is too bad that Alexander II didn't disinherit them all and send them packing, to spend their useless lives gambling and carrousing in Monte Carlo. Russia would have been far better off to see the backs of their heads.
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Alexander II was a giant among the pygamies of the last Romanovs. He was worth ten of any of his worthless sons and grandsons--the bigoted, neanderthal Alexander III with his bigoted, obtuse son, the immoral Vladimir and his womanizing sons, the corrupt Alexis with his fast women and slow ships, Sergei the closet homosexual and anti-semite, and Pavel who was a general who couldn't lead his men out of a wet paper bag, and there was Marie, herself married to an alcoholic womanizer, who let her own son be abused and then die a lonely death, and her daughters were no paragons of virture either. That they could have the unmitigated gall to point the finger at their father is laughable if not obscene. These corrupt, degenerate sons were nothing but millstones around the neck of the dynasty.
It is too bad that Alexander II didn't disinherit them all and send them packing, to spend their useless lives gambling and carrousing in Monte Carlo. Russia would have been far better off to see the backs of their heads.
This sounds as if you accept only black and white tones and don't accept semi-tones.
And how can you know for sure that "Russia would have been far better off to see the backs of their heads"?Did you live then and there? Did you know all those people privately? Were they your close friends?
Of course if we judge all of them as POLITICIANS then they had some great faults but before labelling them "closet homosexual" and "neanderthal" we should think twice as we NEVER KNEW him as they were actually.
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No, I didn't know them personally, but then also, I have never been to Mars either but I think I can discuss its environment intelligently. The GD Olga Alexandrovna knew them and in her recollections to her biographer she had some unkind words about the last Romanovs. She charged them with self serving their own wants and needs and forgetting about serving Russia.
Alexis was appointed Grand Admiral of the Russian Navy and put in charge of its fleets. The result was a navy of mis-matched ships that were slow and obsolete even before their time. He also presided over a corrupt system that allowed officers to buy spoiled food for their men and pocket the difference and a navy that was untrained and low in morale. The result was the annihilation of Russia as a naval power in the Russo-Japanese War. All the time he was presiding over this he was spending on his women, his gambling and his 'artistic' pursuits. In any other country he would never have been allowed to reach that level of irresponsibility.
Paul was made commander of the elite Guards Regiments Corps in World War I, one of the best units in the Russian army, although he had not commanded anything for decades, while he was off in Paris with his second wife and second family. Yet, he was expected to lead this important unit against one of the most professional armies in the world. The result was the decimation of the Guards Corps in a battle in which they were ordered to charge German machine guns and artillery across a swamp. After the debacle Paul decided to relinquish his command because of his "illness."
Sergei's homosexuality is pretty much a given today. Whether he was active or passive, it is not really questioned. What kind of marriage he had is debatable. His term as Governor-General of Moscow made him many enemies and got him blown to pieces. He drove out all the Jewish subjects, something even Ella questioned. He was responsible for the disasters at Khodynka Field, and even his brother Alexander thought he got just a little above himself. His reactionary ideas were excessive even for a time of reactionary politics.
Marie married Alfred because she wasn't getting many offers from other royals and was getting involved with men at court. He married her for her money. He became an alcoholic and a womanizer while she turned her head and looked away. Her son died unhappy and lonely because his father and mother had turned him over to an abusive tutor and then to the Prussian military system. Her daughter Ducky married a man she didn't love, divorced him in scandal, called him a pervert, abandoned their child, and then caused all kinds of trouble with her involvement with Kiril. Marie married a man she didn't love, had a succession of lovers, her oldest son was probably sexually abused by his tutor, and he turned out to be a cad and womanizer, and so on and so on.
Vladimir married an woman who turned out to be the best of the Romanov wives. But he had affairs, had three sons who didn't adorn much of anything, one who betrayed his emperor and went over to the revolution, and later became a fascist, was himself a reactionary who had a bad influence over his nephew in the next reign, and much more.
Yes, Russia would have been better off without the whole lot of them. And these worthless sons condemned their father for his love affair. What hypocrisy. These sons of Alexander III were a rum lot.
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No, I didn't know them personally, but then also, I have never been to Mars either but I think I can discuss its environment intelligentl
Yes, Russia would have been better off without the whole lot of them. And these worthless sons condemned their father for his love affair. What hypocrisy. These sons of Alexander III were a rum lot.
Well, you can discuss of course but discussing and labelling are different things. Seems the main subject of your tirade is that worthless sons dared to condemn their father who was so great the Emperor. Don't you think that their worthlessness was partially a result of their education and upbringing? Of their relations with their parents? Great Emperor Alexander II was not so great a parent and model father. Probably if Alexander III made his sons weak becouse of his own strength then Alexander II made his sons worthless becouse of his democrative ways.
One more time about "Russia would have been better off without the whole lot of them"...I can't agree here as we never knew the situation in Russia those times, we never knew those people, we never live with TSAR on the throne...
And probably you can find my last remark funny but I should say that Russia is such a strange country that you never can learn what is better for her people. As I am Russian and live in Russia I insist on this.
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Alexander II was the best tsar Russia had between Catherine II and the Revolution. If you all want to denigrate him just because he fell in love with another woman, fine, have at it. What a difference it might have made if he had lived out his Biblical span of life.
Amen. If only Alexander II hadn't been chased down by a bunch of murderous fanatics, Russian history might have been very different.
And I agree with you that the sons of Alexander II were a "rum lot." But it's not the first time and it won't be the last that great fathers have had mediocre sons. Leo Tolstoy's many sons all turned out to be very ordinary men of modest intelligence, not one of whom ever made a name for himself in any field of endeavor. All of them died in relative obscurity. It's no wonder that in his old age Tolstoy developed such an affection for Anton Chekhov, who was obviously the son he had always wanted but never had.
Of course, Svetabel, the sons of Alexander II were affected by their upbringing and education as Romanov grand dukes. And no doubt it's a very difficult thing to grow up under the shadow of a larger-than-life father who is not only tsar but a great and important tsar at that. I don't think anyone's questioning those points. But none of Alexander's sons turned out to be men worthy of such a father, at least none of them were able to rise above the circumstances of their birth and upbringing to achieve anything good or worthwhile for their country. On the contrary, they were either oppressive, irresponsible and/or incompetent in the positions of high authority in which they were placed - places, remember, they had not earned by merit but which had essentially been handed to them on a silver platter, solely because of their station in life.
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Thank you, Elizabeth, your support is appreciated.
And for Svetabel, my tirade was against the hypocrisy of his sons and daughter condemning their father's life with Catherine Dolgoruky. Some posters attacked Alexander II by saying that his family disapproved of their father's actions and thus Alexander II should have been more "discreet." I just wanted to even the score some.
The tragedy of Russia in the late 19th century was that the good men died before their time. Alexander II was trying to give his people some progress into the modern world (whereas his son and grandson tried to force it back into the past), and his eldest son, Nicholas, was well educated, liberal, and charismatic, and might have been the dynasty's hope. He died at a young age of an accident and bad doctors, leaving behind his brother Sasha who had neither the intelligence or acuity his brother had, and who he adored, by the way.
A bomb and an abcess, what a pity.
If they hadn't been Romanovs none of his chidlren who survived would have ever achieved the heights or position they acquired on their own merits. And Alexander III's children, pleasant as they may have been, would never gotten to such august positions on their achievements or abilities alone.
The monarchy in Russia was not bad per se, just the way the last two tsars held it in the rigor mortis of a mythic idea of a past that never existed. And I ask you, Svetabel, would you want to live in a nation in which your fate and that of all your countrymen depended on the word of just one man? I thought communism had cured Russians of that idea.
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And I ask you, Svetabel, would you want to live in a nation in which your fate and that of all your countrymen depended on the word of just one man? I thought communism had cured Russians of that idea.
Your question is of a rhetorical nature and out off topic. Besides I did not speak about benefits and defects of the autocracy and absolutism. It's just painful to me to listen to such revelations as "Russia would have been better off without this/that/those/ " and so on...knowing the history of my country and after the mad post-Soviet period in the 1990s when Russia was in a sort of chaos. Seems everybody especially in the West knows better what Russia needs. Don't take my remark personally and let's stop here.
As for Alexander II and his sons frankly speaking it's somewhat simplified point of view that Nicholas,eldest son, might have been the dynasty's hope. All these "what if" are very interesting but useless. And this well-educated boy might have been blown to pieces as well as his father...Oh, well, it's another discussion.
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It's just painful to me to listen to such revelations as "Russia would have been better off without this/that/those/ " and so on...knowing the history of my country and after the mad post-Soviet period in the 1990s when Russia was in a sort of chaos. Seems everybody especially in the West knows better what Russia needs. Don't take my remark personally and let's stop here.
I think Sveta is totallly right. If one doesn't live in a particular country one CANNOT know what it is better or worse for it. Reading books is not enough, to me.
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....and there was Marie, herself married to an alcoholic womanizer, who let her own son be abused and then die a lonely death, and her daughters were no paragons of virture either. That they could have the unmitigated gall to point the finger at their father is laughable if not obscene. These corrupt, degenerate sons were nothing but millstones around the neck of the dynasty.
I think this a bit excessive!
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Gleb: Be specific, and deliniate which points you find to be excessive, and let's debate the point.
Gleb and Svetabel: As to not knowing what is right or wrong for a country just because one doesn't live in it hasn't stopped anyone. In fact, living in a country tends to limit one's viewpoint because you are too close to the issues and have biases which tend to color and influence your opinions. Someone from the outside can see problems or issues from an unbiased angle. It is why physicians don't treat their close relations, not because they would not give them the best treatment but because their professional judgement might be hindered by emotional conflicts. It just makes good sense. That is why business firms hire outside auditors and inspectors to examine their books and products, to get an outside view.
If you think I am not doing your country justice, then debate me on the issues and try to convince me that I am wrong or misguided. Please don't insult me by telling me I don't know anything and my intelligence just because I don't live there and thus cannot possibly make a judgement on a fact of history. Since what happens in Russia had impact on the development of history in the rest of the world I think I and anyone else interested can have a right to our say, just as you have the right to a say about what has or is happening in my country. I will respect your opinions and views even if I don't agree with them. I will never insult you by telling you that you don't know anything about the U.S. just because you don't live here.
And you are right that speculating on what could have happened if Alexander II had lived longer, or if his oldest son had succeeded is a "what if." All we can know is that what did happen was a not a very happy time for a lot of Russians, and because of what happened in Russia, for a lot of people in the rest of the world.
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And I ask you, Svetabel, would you want to live in a nation in which your fate and that of all your countrymen depended on the word of just one man? I thought communism had cured Russians of that idea.
It's just painful to me to listen to such revelations as "Russia would have been better off without this/that/those/ " and so on...knowing the history of my country and after the mad post-Soviet period in the 1990s when Russia was in a sort of chaos. Seems everybody especially in the West knows better what Russia needs. Don't take my remark personally and let's stop here.
I think Sveta is totallly right. If one doesn't live in a particular country one CANNOT know what it is better or worse for it. Reading books is not enough, to me.
Gleb and Svetabel: As to not knowing what is right or wrong for a country just because one doesn't live in it hasn't stopped anyone. In fact, living in a country tends to limit one's viewpoint because you are too close to the issues and have biases which tend to color and influence your opinions. Someone from the outside can see problems or issues from an unbiased angle.
James surely we all have biases? Observers from the west are not immune and that is precisely why they offer their "view" based on their own principles.
Svetabel is correct in stating that the west believes they know what is best for Russia but it is important to listen to Russia and ask what she believes today is right for her ... don't you think?
Alexander II's assasination was a tragedy, and the two rulers who followed him while not so enlightened, were deeply affected by the brutallity of his death. The act of terrorism reflected their own decisions ensuring an observance of stringent law and order. AIII had subdued the temper of the people but the demands for reform had overwhelmed Nikolai II to the point that he himself opened the gates for their stampede towards the path of so called democracy offered by the Provisional Government. Surrounded by chaos and lack of firm decision making, terrorism and anarchy had prevailed, and Kerensky fled from the mayhem he had caused. This time there was no need to abdicate or resign. Instead the bloodied path was readily taken up by a series of pathological egotists, and it was the people who were forced to endure very different kinds of " social reforms" for several more decades.
Margarita
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I would be the last person on this forum to try and offer advice to the Russian people on what they should do about the politics of their country in the present. That is a decision for them to make, for good or bad. I can offer opinions if asked but I would not ever dogmatically state that they should do this or that about their country today.
What we are arguing here is history and it belongs to all of us. What happened in Russia, just as what happened in Germany, or the United States affected all of us. Thus everyone has a right to comment on what happened. Our comments may be informed, intelligent, biased, stupid, or totally uninformed but we have a right to comment.
I am patently willing to listen until the cows come home to Svetabel's views and ideas on what was right or wrong for Russia of that time. I may even support them and concur in them. Let her state those views but don't tell me I don't have a right to discuss them just because I don't live there. She can discuss her views on the history of the United States and what happened in the same time period and I will listen as long as necessary. I won't tell her she doesn't know what she is talking about.
I have strong opinion about the uselessness of the last generation of Romanov grand dukes and what they did to Russia. I won't desist from stating them. Like in all cases there are exceptions but generally the good any of them did is far outweighed by the bad they did. Democracy is a messy, noisy, disorganized, untidy business but it works. It doesn't come from fiat from above or it doesn't happen overnight. But it must come as inevitably as day follows the night. It may have a different look and a diferent tone as it accomodates to the different looks and different tones of each particular people but essentially it is the same--the right of all the people to have a say in the governance of their affairs.
Communism was wrong for Russia but so was the Autocracy of Tsardom. Both have been swept away because they proved themselves to be corrupt, inefficient and unresponsive to the needs of the people. No one knows what might have happened if Alexander II had lived to carry his first tentative steps towards representative government. All we can know is that it would have most probably led to better things for ALL the Russian people than what happened under the heavy hand of tsardom under Alexander III and Nicholas II, and then Lennism-Stalinism.
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... No one knows what might have happened if Alexander II had lived to carry his first tentative steps towards representative government. All we can know is that it would have most probably led to better things for ALL the Russian people than what happened under the heavy hand of tsardom under Alexander III and Nicholas II, and then Lennism-Stalinism.
Let us not forget that Petr Stolypin did try to achieve social and agrarian reforms under Nikolai II but he too was assassinated for his efforts.
Margarita
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Probably the assassin knew or was close to someone who had worn one of Stolypin's neckties. The man was a double agent and the whole affair is as fishy as a Gloucester cod boat. Proves nothing about the corruption of the Romanov's.
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Alexander II was certainly a great Czar. He did much for Russia. I tend to believe that the fact the nature of his relationship with Katia became so public was unfortunate, and must have hurt MA in many ways. He could have been more discreet about it, even if he was not the first Russian czar to have a mistress, for sure. It's not so much the fact of it as how obvious it was that is the problem to me ( especially in light of MA's illness, etc). I think there should be separated his public and personal life though, and I imply no judgment on him as a ruler when I say something about his personal life.
As for his children, it's only natural they felt the way they did about everything with Katia. They were MA's children, she had been a good mother to them, and they didn't want to see any bad effects on her I believe. That's only natural. No matter what the reality of their own private lives, it was only natural for them to feel this way when they saw and observed what was going on, as for example with Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna. I think they didn't always serve the nation, well agreed. That was actually true of many members the last part of the dynasty. I think Sergei tried to serve the nation in his own way ( he did try to be a dutiful member of the dynasty), Alexei was inept, I don't know much about Paul, but he seemed to put his personal life over the dynasty. Vladimir stayed in Russia, and did what he was supposed to do dynastically, but he might not have been of the greatest service to the dynasty. MA really can't be judged, because she wasn't supposed to stay in Russia and do anything for the dynasty. Against their father's record of service, their examples aren't great. But, that doesn't have much to do with their personal lives, although Alexei was a playboy more concerned with pleasure than anything else, and Paul got tied up with his morgantic marriage and pleasure elsewhere. I think MA was fine in her personal life, Sergei an enigma who is hard to say, and Vladimir wasn't half bad by the standards of Romanov grand dukes.
That does make the last Romanovs ( Nicholas and Alexandra, etc) stand out for their devotion to their country and good personal lives. As for what their offspring did, well, good parents have been noted to produce bad children, and it is always easy to be judgmental. In Alexander II's and his children's defense, it was hard to be a royal parent in those days. After all of this, it may not make sense why some of his children criticized the Katia business, but yet it does; perhaps they shouldn't have criticized, but it was only natural they were going to. I really can't judge anyone for criticizing that if it was their mother involved. They were merely criticizing the sitiuation, as well, and not their father in general, in my opinion.
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Well put. I can accept this. As with all human stories it is neither black nor white but all shades of gray.
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Well, I think Alexander II tends to get remember for two things: one, his death with all that entailed and two, his affair with Katia and all that happened there. People tend to overlook the rest, perhaps because that was such dramatic stuff. Indeed, in his affair with Katia and all that, there were many shades of gray.
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This one is of her as Empress:
(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/4860/2444131970094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2444131970094285158qTmszV)
More pics from this source will follow soon. Its time to go to sleep! :) :) ;D
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Have you ever read Romanov Autumn by Charlotte Zeepvat? MA and Alexander II were very happy together during their early married life. She enjoyed her children and shared her husband's zeal for reform. I think during the years that these portraits were painted, she was a happy woman.
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(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/28.jpg)
Not sure when this picture was taken but I've always been struck by her sad expression.
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Remember she was not a well woman in her last few years. She had also survived a great many childbirths. Medical treatment in those days was quite primitive compared to now as well.
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(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/OtherRoyals/7.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/OtherRoyals/0182.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/OtherRoyals/0183.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/OtherRoyals/modoc1873_1969_55588567.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/OtherRoyals/3-2.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/OtherRoyals/2-1.jpg)
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Hi,
Thank you Gogm, Ashanti and Synnadene so much for these wonderful pictures of Maria Alexandrovna.
She strikes me as very sad but intelligent; she always seems to posed with books, a mark of intelligence.....
Larry
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Portrait by Heyn, 1857 year.
(http://www.picatom.com/a/1857byGein-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/a/1857byGein-1.html)
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That's a gorgeous portrait. Everybody knows and has seen the Winterhalter portrait, but there are many more that should be where people can see them. :)
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Portrait by Heyn, 1857 year.
(http://www.picatom.com/a/1857byGein-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/a/1857byGein-1.html)
so BEAUTIFUL! thanks svetabel! :)
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lovely pictures....i always felt so sorry for Maria Alexandrovna....
here are two i had in my photobucket
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/MariaAlexandrovna2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg)
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The last one I posted at the thread on Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna. :)
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i love that one!
she looked like such a happy mother in that picture... :)
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she looked like such a happy mother in that picture... :)
Really? For me she looks sad and tired.
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she was always sick correct?
i mean i heard that she was a frail and sickly woman....
was it because of stress or heartbreak? or was something actually wrong with her?
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Hi,
Maria Alexandrovna suffered from tuberculosis and was prone to influenza and pneumonia; all of which doomed her to live in Russia.
At the beginning of her time there in the 1840's and 50's, she seemed healthy and active. She headed the Russian Red Cross and encouraged her husband in liberal thinking and freeing the Serfs.
She did found and operate schools and hospitals and orphanages in Russia; so she did accomplish much during her healthy years. These works were continued by her daughter and daughters-in-law......
But after 1860 and the last of her many pregnancies, she slowly went downhill and lived mostly in Southern Italy and the French Riviera.
She was pretty much a recluse during her later times in Russia and was seldom seen in public.
Her eldest son, Nicholas, also had TB and died in Nice in 1865.
Maria died in 1880.
Larry
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awww...thats so sad :(
thanks for the info on Maria Vecchiolarry.
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Does anyone know who the ladies are depicted here during Empress Maria's Lying-in-State ?
(http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8300/1880petersburgns1.jpg)
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I was reading this thread and since nobody has posted in it for a while (more than a year) if anyone feels this post should be deleted/moved please do so.
I don't think anyone was scandalized that Alexander II had a mistress, this was something that most/all royals had I believe that the problem was the way he treated Ekaterina, he almost treated her as his wife.
And for those who say that Maria Alexandrovna should be happy because Alexander II didn't divorce her that is not a remotely fair argument. Divorce among lesser royals (younger line princes/princesses) was not common but happened none the less. Divorce between the reigning Tsar and Tsarina would have been a scandal of unknown proportions.
-Duke of NJ
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I agree with you that divorce between the reigning Tsar and Tsarina was unthinkable. But as far a scandalous, IMO the relationship was more of a slap in the face to the dying Empress. And certainly a perceived threat to the rest of the Romanov family.
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I don't think anyone was scandalized that Alexander II had a mistress,
It's certainly true that the three Tsars before Alexander II had mistresses, but greater discretion prevailed and the relationships weren't flaunted as Alexander II and Catherine Dolgoruky's was. The times were not sympathetic to public display of 'immorality' - as Mrs Patrick Campbell said, that sort of thing was all right as long as you didn't do it in the street and frighten the horses. Sophisticated courtiers may have felt no particular surprise or disapproval, but they could not be publicly seen to endorse open adultery - discretion was always the watchword. For example, the Prince of Wales had many mistresses, but discretion was the watchword and none of his favorites had the impudence to flaunt the relationship in public or to the detriment of his wife. The respectable middle classes certainly were unimpressed by the affront to the values of family, Christianity and decency. While Alexander II could of course suppress any reference to the affair in the Russian press, he could not do so overseas and his own lack of discretion meant that it was pretty widely known about in Russia as well. Whatever the actual feelings of individuals about the situation, it certainly counted as a major scandal - all revelations of sexual irregularities were at that time.
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I never really thought Alexander II and Maria actually cared for each other. I belived they got married for polticial reasons and money. The story of Alexander brother begging for him to marry Maria after he died on his deathbed I belive is a complete fairy tale. I belive there marriange was the same as Princess Irina and Felix Yusupov. Marriange of money and power.
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I never really thought Alexander II and Maria actually cared for each other. I belived they got married for polticial reasons and money. The story of Alexander brother begging for him to marry Maria after he died on his deathbed I belive is a complete fairy tale. I belive there marriange was the same as Princess Irina and Felix Yusupov. Marriange of money and power.
I think they did care for each other defintely, but like all royal marriages, money and politics had something to with it- it rarely never did. It wasn't the kind of love match Nicholas and Alexandra was, in my opinion, thinking over what you have said.But it wasn't soley an arranged marriage either.As for the Yusupovs marriage- it is a bit of a mystery if thats's all it was, although money and power came in there as well, no doubt at all- no one ever said that was a love match, completely. But the marriage of Alexander II and Marie Alexandrovna was profoundly different than that of the Yusupovs in several ways.
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I never really thought Alexander II and Maria actually cared for each other. I belived they got married for polticial reasons and money.
There was no political reason other than the Hesse Darmstadts were a German ruling family who were considered of an appropriate level to marry into royalty and had already provided a bride to a future russian ruler. There were many more politically useful brides if Alexander or his parents wanted to go that way - Prussians or Dutch, for example. No one expected Alexander to pick a very young, not especially beautiful, rather obscure daughter from Ludwig of Hesse's failed marriage, who was suspected of not being of royal blood at all, and his mother in particular (Prussians were very hot on bloodlines) objected. If Alexander had not been genuinely in love, he would not have persisted in his courtship, or won through. Marie's motives for marrying may very well have included the wealth of the Tsars, but why shouldn't a 14 year old girl with little love in her life fall in love with a handsome young royal prince who showed he loved her and fought against his family's disapproval to marry her? Some interesting parallels have been drawn between Alexander's love for the very young Marie, who was a sort of Cinderella, and his later love for the very young Catherine, who was in another sort of Cinderella situation. Extreme youth and distress seemed to be Alexander's emotional triggers - and certainly Marie fulfilled those criteria at first just as Catherine did later. Alexander and Marie did not have an arranged marriage and appeared to be genuinely in love, whatever might have happened later.
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I don't think that a 14 year old Teenager has any "motives" considering a proper marriage. It was her father who had those. And there was another significant reason for Nicolas I. wishing that marriage to come true: his sister-in-law the Empress Elizaveta Alexeievna nee Princess of Baden was Marie's aunt!
And Nicolas really adored his new daughter-in-law. Due to the report of Marie's future lady in waiting he treated her as if she was a Saint. And if one reads the letters of the young Alexander's tutor there is no doubt whatsoever that he fell in love with the young princess....
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Like others said, the marriage between Alexander II and Marie of Hesse had no real political motives, it was purely a love match. There were no diplomatic treaties or such involved in the marriage. Hesse and by the Rhine was just a small German state that Nicholas I didn't need to make an alliance with. Alexander's marriage was different from Nicholas I's own marriage to Charlotte of Prussia (Alexandra Feodorovna) which was supposed to increase Russian ties to Prussia, which it did. Alexander just fell in love with Maria Alexandrovna and they were married. I'm sure it was nice for Marie to be married to a future Tsar of Russia but I don't think she actively courted him like other princesses did.
In the Romanovs 1818-1959 John Van der Kriste says:
In March General Kavelin suggested to the heir [Alexander II] that they should make an unplanned stop in Darmstadt. Maybe it was because the entourage was suffering subsquent exhaustion from too much travel in too little time and needed a rest, as Zhukovsky suggested; maybe he had other motives.
So it seems it was an unplanned stop. Actually John Van der Kriste says that Nicholas I wanted Alexander II to meet Princess Alexandrine of Baden but Alexander II and Alexandrine didn't hit it off.
-Duke of NJ
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Alexandrine of Baden was considered exceptionally plain and not very bright. Queen Victoria and her daughter Vicky were both exasperated by her slavish devotion to Wicked Uncle Ernest and sorry because of his total lack of consideration for her.
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Ernst Ludwig of Hesse wrote down a gorgeous little story in addition to Uncle Ernst of Coburg. His wife Alexandrine used to call her husband "Ernst mein Schatz" (Ernst my treasure/Darling). Grand Duke Serge simply loved that petname and christened Ernst of Hesse - as a joke - with that very name.
Once when staying in Windsor - in the great corridor - Serge saw Ernie of Hesse at the other end of the corridor shouting "Ernst my Darling!" - not seeing the Duke of Coburg walking in from the other direction........ :D
As for the topic: the Tsarevitch's stay in Darmstadt was indeed an unexpected one - his entourage had just arrived in Frankfurt/Main - obviously completly exhausted. His tutor insisted - nonetheless- on paying a polite visit to Alexander's uncle, Marie's father the Grand Duke of Hesse.
It is said that after three days he proposed to her. In one of his rooms in the Residential Palace he found a large heart made of pure silver. He took it and pressed it to his own heart when asking for Marie's hand.....it is still to be seen in the palace's Museum.
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I never really thought Alexander II and Maria actually cared for each other. I belived they got married for polticial reasons and money. The story of Alexander brother begging for him to marry Maria after he died on his deathbed I belive is a complete fairy tale.
Halinka, I believe you have Alexander II & Maria A. confused with their son and daughter-in-law. It was Alexander III – not Alexander II – whose brother, Tsarevich Nicholas, asked him on his deathbed to marry his fiancée Dagmar (Maria Feodorovna).
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The deathbead-story is - nonetheless - a fairytale. In his memoirs the tutor of the children of Prince Alexander of Hesse and Princess Julie Battenberg, Dr. Heinrich Hager, writes that nobody at Heiligenberg ever talked about it - which would definitely have been the case if that story was true.
He also reports the visit of the Russian Imperial family at Heiligenberg shortly after the death of Tsarevitch Nicolas in 1864. Dagmar of Denmark, the future Maria Feodorovna was with them and seems not to have behaved like a mouring bride but obviously wanted to attract the new Heir Alexander...
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Maria Alexandrovna of Russia (nee Prinzessin Marie von Hessen), Empress-consort of Alexander II:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/Russia/Imperial%20Family%20of%20Alexander%20II/0096-049.jpg)
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Maria Alexandrovna was born at Germany 1824 at town Darmshtat.Her mother are Louis og Hesse and Wilhemina of Baden.More people thik Maria is douther oh Swess Baron August von Senarclens de Grancy.To avoid a scandal, Ludwig II, Grand Duke of Hesse acknowledged Alexander and Marie as his own children; the other two had died young.Maria and her brother Alexander life on Heiligenberg.Grad Duke life on Darmshtat.Maria s mother life with lover on Franch.In family Maria calling Linny.And Maria write mother everyday and she crying when write mother.Wilhelmine of Baden dead 1836.When russian tsarevich Alexander Nikolaevich,futur Alexander II,traveled to Europe he made a beutiful and intalligent hessen princess Mary.Maria as 15,Alexander was a 21.He married her on April 16, 1841, even though he was well aware of the "irregularity" of her birth. His mother Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna objected, but Alexander insisted.Maria and Alexander have eight children,two doughters Alexandra and Maria,and six sons Nikolay,Alexander,Vladimir,Aleksey and Pavel.Alexander love Maria but he shame because his women every be a impergnate.Maria too be a sick.Alexander have a much lovers Makarova,Dologorukaya,Koraci,Kalinovskaya...but his the great love was be a princess Dolgorukaja Ekaterina Mihailovna.He have with she three children Georgi,Olga,Ekaterina and Boris who died in childhood.Maria so much life in Franch,Italia and at Krimea.She was dide on 1880 at Zimskij Dvor in her apartmans.Into her partmans be apartmans of Alexander lover Dolgorukaja and her child.
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i find Maria Alexandroevna very interesting. I wonder are there any books about her in English or a Scandinavian language ?
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Poor Marie!
There's not much known about her. She was really saint!
And her marriage on Alexander was not a question of politics, just a sign of fate (let me be fatalistic).
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Poor Marie!
There's not much known about her. She was really saint!
And her marriage on Alexander was not a question of politics, just a sign of fate (let me be fatalistic).
Are we speaking of the same Marie? The mother to Nicholas? That Marie?
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Maria Alexandrovna.
Well, whom do you mean?
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Poor Marie!
There's not much known about her. She was really saint!
And her marriage on Alexander was not a question of politics, just a sign of fate (let me be fatalistic).
Are we speaking of the same Marie? The mother to Nicholas? That Marie?
It is Nicholas Grandmother his mother was Maria Fedroevna ( not sure how to spell it )
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I know. But I'm speaking excactly of his grandmother, Marie Alexandrovna/
In spelling - I think the Nicholas mother's name is spelt like Maria Feodorovna
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I know. But I'm speaking excactly of his grandmother, Marie Alexandrovna/
In spelling - I think the Nicholas mother's name is spelt like Maria Feodorovna
It's right, I never trust my spelling. But the women your speaking of the one who was a "saint" was that Nicholas mother?
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Of which Nicholas?
Maria Alexandrovna had son Nicholas, but he died at the age of 22. And, in the opinion of lady-in-wating Tutcheva she was like a "saint" (I can't write the whole quote because it seems untranslatable)
And Maria Feodorovna had son Nicholas too,(both of them had). First was Nicholas I, Second was second.
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Of which Nicholas?
And, in the opinion of lady-in-wating Tutcheva she was like a "saint" (I can't write the whole quote because it seems untranslatable)
I guess you read the Tutcheva recollections. Actually relations between Anna Fedorovna and her mistress Maria Alexandrovna were much complicated and controversial, though in the 1st years of their companionship Anna really only praised the Empress.
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I've read only several parts, because I couldn't find the whole thing. That's terrible, I think.
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Does anybody have any more information on the anecdote from the first reply in this thread. I find the whole "she will be your Empress" prophecy very interesting, any extra info would be appreciated.
-Duke fo NJ
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Empress Maria Alexandrovna
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9859/mariaalejandrovna.jpg)
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Empress Maria Alexandrovna
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Family%20life/maria3.jpg)
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More Maria Alexandrovna
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/th_YIE58CAW45COWCAJVZBTECA434IG0CA8Y34.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/YIE58CAW45COWCAJVZBTECA434IG0CA8Y34.jpg)
Coronation portrait
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/th_attach.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/attach.jpg)
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Maria Alexandrovna
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/th_37SDDCALHFSGLCAEBDQ2HCA5X5X05CAV12Z.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/37SDDCALHFSGLCAEBDQ2HCA5X5X05CAV12Z.jpg)
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Empress Maria Alexandrovna
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1899/1824marie02.jpg)
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I think it was written down by Princess Alix's mother Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse - in a letter to Queen Victoria. So it might be true. I don't recall where I read it but actually I was quite astounded
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lovely pictures....i always felt so sorry for Maria Alexandrovna....
here are two i had in my photobucket
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg)
Who are the woman at the left and the children with Maria Alexandrovna ?
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lovely pictures....i always felt so sorry for Maria Alexandrovna....
here are two i had in my photobucket
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg)
Who are the woman at the left and the children with Maria Alexandrovna ?
I think it's Kitty Strutton - a nanny of Alexander II's kids. And the children: the boy at the left - that's little Sergei Alexandrovich, the girl - Maria Alexandrovna.
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A little doubt! Is there any portrait of her as a child and/or young woman? I don't think I've ever seen one...
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Some new portraits of Marie of Hesse "http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/bednayaliza/mariaalexandrovna1.jpg" - mu favourite by christina robertson
and portrait of her late ages "http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/bednayaliza/mariealexandrovna1.jpg"
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Excuse me, I don't remember if this has been posted before
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Kissingen-Kurg%C3%A4ste-1864.jpg/400px-Kissingen-Kurg%C3%A4ste-1864.jpg)
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I hope it has not been posted before "http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/bednayaliza/marihesse.jpg"
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There s another of that session with Maria Smiling..i love it!
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a picture of maria alexandrovna,not sure about the year.the photo comes from lodz state achives,poland
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/PL_39_606_O-IM-30_111.jpg)
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She looks very good in the last one, I like her style. As an older lady, she changed very much,
I like that hairdos of 1850's ;-)
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She looks very pretty if she smiles. Yes, she changed very much when she grew older. It's because of the many sadness she had gone through.
(http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/olga_maria1993/th_zoomphpe.jpg) (http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/olga_maria1993/zoomphpe.jpg)
There's a bit of smile on her face here.
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Are there some images of Marie Alexandrovna as a girl???
I'm sure that she looked a lot like GD Tatiana Nicholaievna
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the youngest and only portrait I have seen is of Marie was when she was 14. Possibly there are unpublished ones.
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I would like to see one to compare her with Tatiana ;-)
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From ‘Grand Duches Alice of Hesse-Darmstadt, Biographical Sketch and Letters’:
Seeheim, June 27th.
Aunt Marie (Empress Maria Alexandrovna) arrived at two on Monday, and a few hours later came to see me, and was so sympathizing, motherly, and loving ; it touched me much. At such moments she is peculiarly soft and womanly, and she loves her own children so tenderly. She cried much, and told me of the sad death of her eldest girl, who was seven, and of the terrible, irreparable loss her
eldest son was to her. She has such a religious, truly resigned way of looking at great sorrows such as these…She is coming to " Sunshine's" toilet this evening; it always amuses her, and she is very fond of the children.
From “The Royal Romances of Today”
Now, this incident by itself would have no significance, but Miss Eager relates in connection with it other incidents which give it interesting if fantastic value. Miss Eager, during her long stay in the Royal Household, always slept with the nursery. One night, she maintains, she distinctly heard a voice coming from directly beneath her bed. The voice was far off and weird and was as of one weeping bitterly and making terrible com- plaints and the language used was French. The story she was relating was one of extreme intimacy. Miss Eager says that she sat up in bed to try to locate from whence the sounds were coming, but no sooner had she raised herself upright than the voice ceased. Upon laying her head on the pillow again, the voice resumed and the complaints were
of her husband's unfaithfulness. While Miss Eager was still meditating the extraordinary experience, the Empress as was her wont, entered the room and Miss Eager asked her what room was directly beneath the room they were then in. The Empress replied, "Merely storerooms." Miss Eager then said to the Empress, "But there is some poor woman there and suffering from the most terrible affliction." The Empress replied, "What are you saying?" Whereupon, Miss Eager related what she had just experienced. The Empress then asked if the words were spoken in English. "No," replied Miss Eager, "It is French; at first I thought it might be the cook, but that is impossible because the French spoken was very pure and elegant." The Empress then said that if Miss Eager thought there was any one below, she had better get out of bed and listen at the floor, which she did, but could hear nothing. The Empress then told her to get back into bed and go to sleep. Immediately her head touched the pillow, the voice was again audible to her. Suddenly the Empress said, "Tell me, does it remind you of anything you have ever heard before? Do you know anything of the story of this room before it was done up for my little ones?"
Miss Eager replied that she knew that the wife of Alexander II slept in this room and then she recalled having heard that this woman was very unhappy because of her husband's numerous peccadilloes with other women. She recalled, also, that the Princess Dolgoruki was Alexander II's mistress. His wife, who used this room over a long period of time, used nightly to bury her face in her pillow and cry aloud. After she recalled these things, the Empress said, "Yes, but before she died, she went to the Dolgoruki and told her of her unhappiness, using the very selfsame words that you have just repeated to me as having heard while on your pillow." The Empress thereupon told Miss Eager that she was sleeping on the very bed which Alexander II's wife had used and upon which she died. The next day, the Empress herself, insisted that the entire furnishings of the room be changed and that a new bed be installed. It is said that Alexander II, after the death of his wife, wanted to marry the Princess Dolgoruki, which indeed, he may have done morganatically. Miss Eager was deeply impressed by this experience and in the mind of the Empress there was no question or shadow of doubt whatever.
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(http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/olga_maria1993/th_mariealexandrovna.jpg) (http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq126/olga_maria1993/mariealexandrovna.jpg)
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Please, do a description every time posting a photo/image/picture.
Not everyone here, especially starters in the Romanovs family history, can at once recognize who is who in the picture.
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I'm not very sure of who is who there. I just wanted to share the picture.
Hmm, I guess the one on the left is Alexander (future Alexander III) while the one on the left is Nicholas (then Tsarevich).
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I'm not very sure of who is who there. I just wanted to share the picture.
Hmm, I guess the one on the left is Alexander (future Alexander III) while the one on the left is Nicholas (then Tsarevich).
But you could ask a question - who is who? : )
That's Empress Maria Alexandrovna with her youngest sons - Sergei and Pavel
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Good day.
I really need a portrait of Maria Alexandrovna before marriage, when she was a princess of Hesse-Darmstadt.
Thanks in advance.
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Slightly bigger:
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAIY239ZbMFygeo-KcJVc3NnBeB_edNXi4Fuz-cD5gj0abQyFP248u3gJqg8Lqjh-Uu3o4zUG_Ws24znZIvCGIwMAm1T1UCNbz_h96NSnSlh2wquZdcWk3y78.jpg)
And Marie in detail:
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAItD-s1HIKJ6xaKqrflHpEhfXzmscxHPgIierRCmf5pfg-StZPDKhgIi_Fn6psg5F9m0gbt7PXPvMDFSKmVzpjYAm1T1UHBgAJXiEEZvAQxFT_DngtldHD1Z.jpg)
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It actually didn't get any bigger here! :D
Better try the linK:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3825/coronationportraits.jpg :)
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Great job!, thank you very much! :), finally I can see a real bigger version.
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Fantastic images!!! Her corornation gown was very beautiful.... Still exists??
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I think it still exists. I wonder if the coronation gown she used was the one that Alexandra used in her coronation, too.
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I don't think so, or if it is the same it suffered a great modification, Maria's was a crinoline one and
Alexandra's no (it would be so old fashioned for Alix)
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I think it would have been considered extremely bad form to re-use coronation robes and dress at the time - it would have demonstrated that you and your country were either mean or poor, or both - and the Romanovs seemed to want everything to be of the grandest - no recycling for them. Possibly some of the aristocracy who were not as well off might have re-used previous coronation robes/dresses, but I can't see the imperial family doing anything of that sort.
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Not only for romanovs, i haven't heard or read about other memebers of the royalty re using the same
clothes...
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2686/4270326641_316e9705d9_o.jpg)
Lithograph of Alexander II and Maria Alexandrovna, by Carl Lanzedelly.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4271092286_b67f125d4a.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna.
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Very fine and new for me !!!! :)
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So idealized verssion of their coronation, anyways I liked it and is very beautiful. She looks
pretty on her second portrait ;-)
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An illustration, probably from a newspaper
(http://i45.tinypic.com/zl3gk1.jpg)
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Older Maria.
can you read the things that are written below the portrait?
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I just can read "her majesty, the empress of Russia"
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2740/4272507253_68ffde93e3_o.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna.
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Thanks for the fact Katenka!!! This portrait of Maria is new for me.
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Very pretty so young and stylish dog
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The dog looks a bit funny, I don't know, so thin!!! But Marie looks pretty
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The dog looks a bit funny, I don't know, so thin!!! But Marie looks pretty
Both Tsarina Maria Alexandrovna and Tsar Alexander II seem to had a great passion for pets, it's common to find photos of Alexander II with his dog.
About the portrait of Maria Alexandrovna, judging by the thin aspect, the dog could be a kind of greyhound.
Sorry for the Off-Topic.
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Do you know how many dogs they had or something like this? Did they liked hunting?
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I don't know how many dogs they had, and as far as I know, Tsar Alexander II practiced hunting (as the other Tsars did).
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Thanks for the fact and I'm sorry for ask something that isn't directly related :-(
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2606/4280146193_de3d8521c7_o.jpg)
I don't think this one has been posted yet.
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Many photos had been posted before, and that one as well. But most of them has been gone due to the broken links as the Forums had been created about 5 years ago and many posters lost their accounts on photo-servers.
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Was Maria's hair curly??
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It's OK for all new members' forum,like me, That don't know a lot of photos :)
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Was Maria's hair curly??
That's her fashion-style from the end of the 1860s.
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Her hair seemed to have a definite wave in it, as in the earlier portraits (e.g the one with the dog) the fashion was for smooth hair and I think the waves would not have been shown had they not existed. But whether her hair was so curly it would create those corkscrews in the later photos/portraits naturally over her head, it's hard to tell.
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Thanks so much for the answer about her hair ;-D
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(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAId0s3kTkDyMMPcIEkLWRRaMVouWKJkR9CBIUkdwiPQD2cYfn90w_t0Pz3Ew9iqNFc_0-RjFybRDYbiM565YvzkAm1T1UAvuHI-9r3kGUJn9JRbVGZ2JkFh8.jpg)
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What beautiful thing you posted Sara!!! I'd like see bigger the portraits, but anyways is beautiful
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I think that's the youngest I've seen Maria in portraits... I wish I had them without the box too... :(
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yes, i think that she didn't have too much time with Alexander
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Young Maria
(http://s686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Royals/Marie_of_Hesse.jpg)
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Young Maria
(http://s686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Royals/Maria_Alexandrovna_1.jpg)
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And this lovely that i found with Alexander
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2621175158_a704ca072b.jpg?v=0)
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Maria Alexandrovna in 1860s
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/520010-08-21894.jpg)
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With her husband, Alexander II:
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAG9HOFMzoeTbFlWFOlNKKl-dSzeaCpYMhY5i5eZ730mPibsqLDnv24jUhCzii79zzLii5gsnxw5v_JcLPdtIUB0Am1T1UMxJEkWyjbWbbNGkQ3ndEFa0zQQ_.jpg)
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It looks like she had a very sad life. Even though Grand Duke Ludwig II acknowledged Marie as his own daughter she lived in a separate establishment in Heiligenberg while the Grand Duke lived in Darmstadt. It was common knowledge that her real father was her mothers lover Baron August von Senarclens de Grancy. Her mother-in-law Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna objected to the marriage of her son to Maria but Alexander insisted. Her life in Russia was quiet difficult as Russian high society regarded Maria as stiff, austere, and with no taste in dress, no conversation, no charm. The damp climate of Saint Petersburg did not agree with the delicate chest Marie had inherited from her mother, so that she had a racking cough and recurring fever. Nevertheless, she became the mother of eight children. These pregnancies together with ill health kept her away from many Court festivities, which brought temptations to her husband. Although he always treated her well, Marie knew Alexander was unfaithful and had many lovers. But the most important thing is she loved her children and they adored her. What do you all think of her? send pics and any facts about her life.
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I very much like the lady,however mostly out of pity. Everyone expects Princesses to live happily ever after like in fairy tales, Maria Alexandrovna and many other Princesses surely didn't. :(
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Indeed, Alexandra was against his son's marriage to Mary, but she persuaded the emperor. In the case of the bride's son, Nikolai Pavlovich was where democratic its soft, kind-hearted wife. In addition, experience has convinced him: marry only need to love. Well, if he could not prevent the marriage of his son with his first love - Pole Olga Kalinovskaya, here he felt obliged to help. As for the views of European courts ...
Just let them try to say something insulting about his daughter in law! Alexandra continued to resist. The last argument that persuaded her to surrender, was the story about the origin of the wife of Peter the Great, Empress Catherine I. In comparison, the origin of the Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt could be considered flawless.
In addition, Nicholas, perhaps, he was illegitimate.
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Indeed, Alexandra was against his son's marriage to Mary, but she persuaded the emperor. In the case of the bride's son, Nikolai Pavlovich was where democratic its soft, kind-hearted wife. In addition, experience has convinced him: marry only need to love. Well, if he could not prevent the marriage of his son with his first love - Pole Olga Kalinovskaya, here he felt obliged to help. As for the views of European courts ...
Just let them try to say something insulting about his daughter in law! Alexandra continued to resist. The last argument that persuaded her to surrender, was the story about the origin of the wife of Peter the Great, Empress Catherine I. In comparison, the origin of the Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt could be considered flawless.
In addition, Nicholas, perhaps, he was illegitimate.
nicholas illegitimate? that's a new one!
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Indeed, Alexandra was against his son's marriage to Mary, but she persuaded the emperor. In the case of the bride's son, Nikolai Pavlovich was where democratic its soft, kind-hearted wife. In addition, experience has convinced him: marry only need to love. Well, if he could not prevent the marriage of his son with his first love - Pole Olga Kalinovskaya, here he felt obliged to help. As for the views of European courts ...
Just let them try to say something insulting about his daughter in law! Alexandra continued to resist. The last argument that persuaded her to surrender, was the story about the origin of the wife of Peter the Great, Empress Catherine I. In comparison, the origin of the Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt could be considered flawless.
In addition, Nicholas, perhaps, he was illegitimate.
nicholas illegitimate? that's a new one!
Yes, some Russian historians think he wasn't a son of Emperor Pavel. Brand new nonsense.
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nicholas illegitimate? that's a new one!
Letter of Emperor Paul I Fyodor Rostopchin:
"... For me the holy Day of Remembrance for deceased Tsesarevna Natalia Alexeevna, whose bright image will never fade from my memory until my dying day. You, as one of the few people whom I trust completely, bitterly acknowledged that the official attitude towards me Tsesarevich Alexander oppresses. Did not inspire him whether trite fable about the origin of his father, my numerous enemies? The more sad that Alexander, Constantine and Alexandra - my good children. But the rest? .. God knows! ".. It is very hard, ending with a woman all the general in life, to have children by her. In my fervor, I drew a manifesto on the recognition of a son, Nicholas my illegal. But Bezborodko begged me not to disclose it. But still, I think Nicholas sent in Wurttemberg, the "uncles", from my eyes: “Gough furersky bastard should not be in the role of the Russian Grand Duke - an enviable fate!”"
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I really doubt that Maria Feodorovna had affairs, I really think since he (Paul) had a bad relationship with his sons, exp Alexander. I also guess he had a hard time trusting people.
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...and with good reason when he ended up murdered...
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...and with good reason when he ended up murdered...
He may have had good reasons to be suspicious, but if his concerns centred around his wife being unfaithful and Nicholas not being his son, no wonder he was murdered - he was focusing on quite the wrong people and it was his 'good' son Alexander who was the danger to him (not necessarily in that he plotted against his father, which has never been decisively proved, but more that he was willing to see his father removed from the throne and thus gave the impetus for the conspirators to move against Paul). Paranoid delusions are not normally considered as evidence and there's never been any other suggestions that Maria Feodorovna had affairs.
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The Empress walking in the garden:
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAACegooc7NOqwoJf3orfb_3rJYE1xkYVUZcgT4Sp0xg54NdiRCSJqRK2hnxVdICfHHTCfUJDNpwnKDZfBF_c738YAm1T1UIifMcyzt4kEeXAH2iypGoQ7XBen.jpg)
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are you sure? because the little girl in the carriage is Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna (later Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha), possibly yes with her mother the Empress, but doubt it since if it was the Empress her face would have been showed not her back.
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An illustration, probably from a newspaper
http://i45.tinypic.com/zl3gk1.jpg
The picture who inspired this portrait
(http://i42.tinypic.com/kcmpzs.jpg)
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A bit different verssion of her famous portrait (by Winterhalter)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/PicMarie.jpg)
With Alexander
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaAndAlexander.jpg)
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In black
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/BWMaria.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariyaA.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaAlex.jpg)
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Finally I wonder if the first lady from left to right is Marie, she looks like her
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaLadies.jpg)
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(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaAlexandrovna2.jpg)
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Finally I wonder if the first lady from left to right is Marie, she looks like her
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaLadies.jpg)
Left: Empress Maria Alexandrovna
Center: Dowager Empress Alexandra Feodorovna
Right: GDss Alexandra Iosifovna
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Thank you very much for the info...
Marie and other Empresses of her time
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/Empresses19.jpg)
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Charlotte of Mexico?, Elisabeth of Austria and Eugenie of France.
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i d say its not Charlotte of Mexico. Maybe Carola of Vasa?
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but she wasn't Empress but a Queen.
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I think it's Theresa Christina of the Two Sicilies, Empress of Brazil.
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your right, it is.
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I've read that she was the Empress of Brazil....
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According to the ÖNB, that's queen Victoria among the empresses.
http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=9305835
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It could be but honestly, i dont trust 100% in what the ONB says. I ve found too many mislabeled images there.
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handtinted picture. Not so pretty work tho
(http://i42.tinypic.com/oa63p0.jpg)
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Really beautiful! Was the other part behind it?
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Maria and Alexander in Saint Petersburg
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/Mariaa.jpg)
With Alexander
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/MariaFormal.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/WithAlexander.jpg)
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With her son, the Tsarevich Nicholas
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/MariaNicholas.jpg)
The Coronation
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/MariaCoronation.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/MariaCrown.jpg)
Older Marie
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Queens/MariaOld.jpg)
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Bigger?
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/MariaAlex.jpg)
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Does anyone have any photos of Maria Aleksandrovna?? The Winterhalter portrait is certainly beautiful......
She was lovely, but sorry I do not have any to display at the moment.
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The coffin of the Empress at the cathedral of Saint Peter and Paul
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/MarieBurial.jpg)
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a beautiful portrait of Maria
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2j31soz.jpg)
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Alexander II and his family hunting
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/ALII.jpg)
is the lady Maria Alexandrovna? I can't see well her face
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Since the picture is gone...
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/37SDDCALHFSGLCAEBDQ2HCA5X5X05CAV12Z.jpg)
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Maria and Alexander II
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/MariaAleksandr.jpg)
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Another version of the famous portrait
(http://i45.tinypic.com/k3m4c0.jpg)
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Fragment of a family portrait
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/MariaAlexandrovna-1.jpg)
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i havent seen this one here
(http://i45.tinypic.com/24qvo8i.jpg)
Its the cropped version of a bigger one?
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No,that's the whole version.
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Based on a photo?
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/MarijaAlexandrovna.jpg)
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It looks like a retouched photograph to me.
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Her face looks for me like a drawing and her body like photo, so I thought it was a drawing but perhaps it is a photo as you said...
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Bigger?
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/maria_alexandrowna.jpg)
thanks in advanced :-)
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Nope, i dont have it
Illustration
(http://i46.tinypic.com/34ywiet.jpg)
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I found both on a same site as "Maria Alexandrovna, wife of Alexander II" but I'm not sure about the second one...
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/0040-026.jpg)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/0007-009.jpg)
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I think that's indeed Maria Alexandrovna in her death bed.
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I found this statue...about her? Hadn't caption
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/Statue.jpg)
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4788882816_eddd84db21_b.jpg)
I found this labeled as Marie of Hesse, future empress of Russia; is it really her?
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it doesnt look like her but its a beautiful portrait!
Maria Alexandrovna with Alexander and other people, among them Alexander II and Maria Fyodorovna (just behind them).1877
(http://i26.tinypic.com/16a4f82.jpg)
Bigger
http://i26.tinypic.com/16a4f82.jpg
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About the first posted I don't think that the lady portrayed is the Empress... or perhaps very young...
I wonder which event was in the second one? Really lovely
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I didn't think it looked much like her either, but I was curious to see what other people thought.
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Of her coronation
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/MAlex.jpg)
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Here are some close-ups of Maria in the coronation:
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAE2Vy8isRw-klcZgqFj7H7D6zZ_DAMKPLG4YmhORsokxm63FOX_oR_-RwWRAT2AfAHK0FE2Cs7VKMvJfZwr4MlkAm1T1UOefsu3EvHCulf4ORQzdMjp8qZIM.jpg)
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAJ1DzRvyAy4tjjFwVu0YVXEJytxXHXKDBRBZqaAhB7RvYlUw7YvpNUKMhvBsaOMmyIwidNSUabb_tR-vqxecq7AAm1T1UM64hmE_3yV42evLNOImf9POrJol.jpg)
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAABHrQkZIw32jWNMqro0bLLFic5TLUpf4m-AVSVigdVq9hhbSjrzh8fG1zR_0k3uM16_OFWUGPkqqUB3QTJZGFMsAm1T1UNub0zKMaO6j2IGqKHRSzKmGVmba.jpg)
With her mother-in-law Alexandra:
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAF5FSuxryPCXijR8qMA2eAhFCK7tK8WiMNkKvPUCAb4ujqS4wMy1N1YX-znAwKnIPDL9esePZ5SmQ7ME4TDxZxQAm1T1UNK8yjMQHA3HObiP_DbtIVkfqcKJ.jpg)
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAADabjVAkwVST1Cs9FI_4goHIXEvXWLOzKzQJuYND17wX8CeU6Yah40YmwFw0mQI3vQIGxxnlvk4zK-RvlCa-acsAm1T1UAEJp4xHdzNCnSTHPVzwhFmxm5hB.jpg)
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAFDu5qgkg5GQqxsIWd1MUums_67O3zWby0LxQLSu3IqfzMVGWg_RpWuEnG52qA8roqAbW8OIdB80ddypzxufWqkAm1T1UFe67S8u1B6iwBtY2N1Ye_ITsFN_.jpg)
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAKpxaF-83XM_oR17QHinTPmdu7TQMNUFq2OH29WJ8RN9XWOTIymTUWfmcOnngLBBJj0W4oFkkRSvxM-FL-4DBGMAm1T1UFHrx97dZZa6ytIZWjqMyFHjmGAf.jpg)
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Another, now Alexandra Feodorovna embracing her son
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/Crown.jpg)
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Found as Tsarevich Alexander and his wife Maria A.
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/1845.jpg)
From a newspaper
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/MA-1.jpg)
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Thanks for the close up, Sara!!.
Here another from the Crowning
(http://i29.tinypic.com/2w39lbq.jpg)
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Posted it before, now a bit bigger
With Alexander II, Empress Sissi and King Ludwig of Bavaria
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/Kaisers.jpg)
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With AII
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/AII.jpg)
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Hi everyone. Can anyone post some info about Marie of Hesse and by Rhine, who was Marie Alexandrovna when she married Alexander II? I really want to know about her personality. Thanks!
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Hi everyone. Can anyone post some info about Marie of Hesse and by Rhine, who was Marie Alexandrovna when she married Alexander II? I really want to know about her personality. Thanks!
I wonder - do you create a new topic to focus attention on your question or just don't see the proper topic near at hand? I merged the threads, please do a search before starting ANY topic.
Thanks for understanding.
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I'm sorry, I think I'm searching wrong then, because nothing comes up when I do. Sorry again to make a fuss.
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Maria Alexandrovna standing
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Royals/220.jpg)
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With AII
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/Tsars.jpg)
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Young Maria and Alexander
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5393/af15l.jpg) (http://img834.imageshack.us/i/af15l.jpg/)
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Very nice and lovely drawing
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They look very young! Is it of their engagement? Totally new for me, thank you very very much! XD
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(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/am.jpg)
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/mf.jpg)
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Maria and her daughter Maria
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1897/arieltyco.jpg) (http://img100.imageshack.us/i/arieltyco.jpg/)
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3923/se57.jpg) (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/se57.jpg/)[/url]
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lovely pictures....i always felt so sorry for Maria Alexandrovna....
here are two i had in my photobucket
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Czar%20Aleksanders%20family/Untitled-2mariaalexandrovna.jpg)
Who are the woman at the left and the children with Maria Alexandrovna ?
I think it's Kitty Strutton - a nanny of Alexander II's kids. And the children: the boy at the left - that's little Sergei Alexandrovich, the girl - Maria Alexandrovna.
And I was right.
Description across the bottom says it is English nanny Kitty Strutton with Sergei and little Maria.
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/8430/swedwa.jpg)
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5095731264_e37cbfc143_z.jpg)
Maria with Alexander II.
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Thank You Dru for the Pic. I like to see the handpainted pictures
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Maria and Alexander
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/435/big511856123979758.jpg) (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/big511856123979758.jpg/)
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Composited picture of the family
(courtesy: luminous-lint)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/compositedagamr.jpg)
Alexander II and Marie (sorry for the size) :-(
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/pairruss.jpg)
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4051/5121857350_fb11e94d15_b.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna with her husband and eldest son.
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I like this miniature
(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8807/sfsdfi.jpg) (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/sfsdfi.jpg/)
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It's really beautiful... Was it made for her coronation?
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(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/800px-Coronation-Portraits.jpg)
coronation pictures
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(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4166/82884813.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/82884813.jpg/)
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Maria Alexandrovna revered memory of her aunt, Empress Elizaveta Alexeevna, nee Princess of Baden. Se didin`t know her personally as she was only 2 when the Empress died. BUt her mother was the Empress`s sister and she often told her daugter about her late aunt. Maria Alexandrovna, on her coming to Russia, collected materials on her aunt,read her letters and tried to keep her memory intact. Before her death she gave all the papers to her son Sergey who later married Elizabeth of Hesse. Sergey Alexandrovich loved his mother so dearly that he continued gathering materials on Elizaveta Alexeevna e.g. he personally copied ab. 1000 letters of Elizaveta Alexeevna to her German relatives. Geran royals made them available to Sergey Aleksandrovich. GD Sergey was neither historian nor writer so he gave all the materials to his cousin, GD Nikolay Mikhailovich, a priminent historian. A few years later nikolay mikhailovichh published the first russian (or may be the first ever?) biography of empress elizaveta alexeevna
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Found in this site a portrait that was perhaps a very young Maria Alexandrovna, What do you think?
Miniature of M.A. (http://www.portraitminiatures.com/details/contin/cp-WinbergPrincess1845.htm)
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From the site RomanovRussia, medal with Maria's profile
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/mariaderusia.jpg)
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(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5392135144_5c54a8bd66_b.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna
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(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6185/cdvrussia12996998073794.jpg) (http://img402.imageshack.us/i/cdvrussia12996998073794.jpg/)
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A really new and beautiful photo ::) ::)
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(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5214/5535556011_77654b0d2b.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5173/5535579717_e9f5b629d3.jpg)
Alexander Nikolaevich and Maria Alexandrovna by Schmidt.
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(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5147/5625463864_ff2b8631c4_b.jpg)
Alexander II and Maria Alexandrovna.
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The one on horseback is new to me!! Amazing!! ;)
Found this as King Ludwig II of Bavaria and the Empress Maria Alexandrovna, 1868
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/ccf14022010_000061.jpg)
Click for bigger (http://frankzumbach.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/ccf14022010_000061.jpg)
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AII and his family on a service
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/8b27caa37c7e.jpg)
Bigger (http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/8b27caa37c7e.jpg)
AII and Empress Maria A
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/ddc467c7f1df.jpg)
Bigger (http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/ddc467c7f1df.jpg)
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Russian old print showing Empress Maria Alexandrovna in coronation robes
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Vintage%20Dreams/image001.jpg)
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(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6149/5924761510_15f21381cc_z.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna sleighing with her husband.
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(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7147/6464367499_381a1d821d_z.jpg)
Alexander Nikolaevich and Maria Alexandrovna.
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Amazing ones Dru!! :D
AII and MA, based on the famous portrait of her by Winterhalter (only that not as good as the original)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/kaiserpaarRussland.jpg)
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(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7055/6873022555_e9cfe0731f_b.jpg)
Print of Alexander II and Maria Alexandrovna.
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The well known Winterhalter portrait with some different details like the background, the dress of the Empress looks a bit different too, like made with tulle
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingSissi/mariaalexandrovna.jpg)
Source: ansichtskarten-center
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(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8003/7136768897_9d788084a3_z.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna.
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This is remarkable portrait, I had never seen before
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(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7233/7289915442_c66ffc8bec.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna by Hau.
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(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8451/7966403704_53e3385600_z.jpg)
Maria and Alexander reading together.
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This is remarkable portrait, I had never seen before
This portrait really inspires my sympathy. She looks sickly and morose.
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Empress Maria knitting:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img39/81/p003b.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/p003b.jpg/)
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Empress Maria knitting
Is she actually knitting? It looks to me as if she's doing some tapestry or heavy embroidery - even carpet work.
The portraits on the wall are very interesting - I recognise the Winterhalter portrait of her daughter Maria, her son Nicholas, her father-in-law Nicholas I, and a very large photo which looks to be one of the family (where they all look rather uncomfortable). I'm not sure about the central portrait though - is that Alexander II? His hair looks wrong somehow - though this could be the effect of some sort of military headgear. Anyway, a fascinating photograph!
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From a Russian site, The grief of a mother
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingSissi/Nixasdeath.jpg)
Click here for bigger! (http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingSissi/Nixasdeath.jpg)
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I really like Empress Maria Alexandrovna, as I like Alexander II. When I see pictures of her, you just have to respect her. Is there any really good pictures of her mother?
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I really like Empress Maria Alexandrovna, as I like Alexander II. When I see pictures of her, you just have to respect her. Is there any really good pictures of her mother?
Here is the best picture I have. Maybe someone else has it bigger and in color:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8213/8327020011_f2d9d53624.jpg)
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Also not in colour, alas, but another undated portrait of Wilhelmine of Baden by Johann Grund, c. late 1820s or early 1830s by the costume:
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/German%20and%20Austrian%20courts/WilhelmineH-D-1_zpsd71b847f.jpg)
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Thank you Dru and CountessKate! Yes it would be great to see the pictures in color. I wonder if Empress Maria ever commented on the rumors that she may be illegittimate or was she quiet about it?
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the first portrait shows in fact Maria A's grandmother Luise of Hesse Darmstadt (1761-1829)
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the first portrait shows in fact Maria A's grandmother Luise of Hesse Darmstadt (1761-1829)
I do remember the picture of Grandduchess Louise of Hesse, I think I have seen it somewhere. Is it part of the collection of the Schlossmuseum in Darmstadt?
Or was it published in a book?
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That's interesting that the first portrait is really Empress Maria's grandmother, when I looked up her mother on wikipedia that is the portait that they say is her.
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I think that Empress Maria was very pretty when she was young, it def seemed that she and Alexander II were very much in love.
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That's interesting that the first portrait is really Empress Maria's grandmother, when I looked up her mother on wikipedia that is the portait that they say is her.
They are correct, though--just look at the clothing style. I must have mislabeled them in my collection :-[
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Louise, Grand Duchess of Hesse was a very striking looking woman and was part of the party traveling with Marie Antoinette heading to France in 1770. Her mother's Baden family is pretty famous, one of her mother's sisters was a Queen of Bavaria, another was Empress Elizabeth Alexeyevna of Russia (Luise of Baden) and another one was a Queen of Sweden. Talk about connections.
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you can def picture what Empress Maria's mother looked like when she was young by looking at her mother's sisters
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I just read in a book that Empress Maria took more of an interest in her children then in her imperial role and that because of that her children were very protective of that, I definitely like that :)
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Sadly a reason why her husband cheated on her, he wanted besides a mother to his children - a lover playmate and a regal Empress, which to him his favorite long time mistress and later morganatic wife Ekaterina Mikhailovna had.
Maria Alexandrovna had poor health all her life which worsen with age and to the Russian Court, they saw her much how the they would see her great-niece Alexandra Fydorovna in the 20th century - a German, from a poor court (same court Darmstadt), weak & mental heath, bad taste in fashion, way to shy, heartless saying she didn't care for Russia and it people etc...(however AF would have a happy marriage with a faithful husband).
As being protective of her children, she was especially protective of her eldest son and heir Tsarevich Nikolai Alexandrovich and after his death and the memory of losing her eldest daughter and child Alexandra many years before- haunted her for the rest of her life and she cling to her three youngest children (Maria, Sergey and Paul) and spend long periods away from Russia in her birth county Hesse with those children.
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Two more portraits of Maria Alexandrovna's mother, Wilhelmine:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img546/7756/princesswilhelmineofbad.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img203/1526/wilhelmineofhesseneeb2.jpg)
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Sadly a reason why her husband cheated on her, he wanted besides a mother to his children - a lover playmate and a regal Empress, which to him his favorite long time mistress and later morganatic wife Ekaterina Mikhailovna had.
Given that Alexander II was in an adulterous relationship with Ekaterina Dolgorukova for most of their relationship, and their marriage was deemed morganatic, it is difficult to accept that he realistically was looking for a 'regal Empress' given that she had no public position as his mistress and not a very clear public position as his wife (and as the latter was deeply resented by the Tsarevna Maria Feodorovna).
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It is interesting to look at Empress Maria's predecessor, the Empress Alexandra, Nicholas I's wife. She was also German, born Charlotte of Prussia but inherited her famous mother's grace and charm (Queen Louise of Prussia), ease in social situations and it looks like she was able to adapt well to her new country overtime and her husband adored her and I heard that Nicholas didn't have his infidelities until after Alexandra got ill.
It is very sad about the situation that Empress Maria was in sometimes, I've read some place that Alexander II moved his mistress and his children by her to the third floor of the Winter Palace, right above the Empress's rooms??
Great pictures Sara Araujo!
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According to Alexander II: The Last Great Tsar, Ekaterina Dolgorukaya and her children were moved to the third floor of the Winter Palace for safety purposes (there was concern about assassination attempts). However, their rooms were not directly above those of Maria Alexandrovna--that was just a rumor spread by courtiers who disapproved of the tsar's infidelities.
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Sadly a reason why her husband cheated on her, he wanted besides a mother to his children - a lover playmate and a regal Empress, which to him his favorite long time mistress and later morganatic wife Ekaterina Mikhailovna had.
Given that Alexander II was in an adulterous relationship with Ekaterina Dolgorukova for most of their relationship, and their marriage was deemed morganatic, it is difficult to accept that he realistically was looking for a 'regal Empress' given that she had no public position as his mistress and not a very clear public position as his wife (and as the latter was deeply resented by the Tsarevna Maria Feodorovna).
i guess I didn't explain well, lol that's why I'm not a professional writer *wink*. well anyways, what I mean by "Regal Empress" is that what was expected of Maria Alexandrovna - in looks, fashion, leading the highest and best of the Russian Society and perfection in doing her imperial duty. "regal" i suppose isn't the right word for it.
I bid it did bother Alexander II when his wife couldnt do her duties and was ill all the time. poor thing (Maria Alexandrovna), really not her fault.
As for Ekaterina Dolgorukova, if Alexander II lived for a few more years it would have been possible that Ekaterina would have become "Empress" and whould have imperial duties, by being still young and healthy would have performed her duties well.
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There is a book in French LE DEMON BLUE DU TSAR, by Laurence Catinot-Crost, with the letters that Katia exchanged with the Emperor. She is always nagging or demanding something, and one can see how much power she had on him. Some of the letters are very intimate. This book was published in 2003 and I believe it is authentic. I can not remember where I bought this book, but it is very interesting.
Amelia
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i guess I didn't explain well, lol that's why I'm not a professional writer *wink*. well anyways, what I mean by "Regal Empress" is that what was expected of Maria Alexandrovna - in looks, fashion, leading the highest and best of the Russian Society and perfection in doing her imperial duty. "regal" i suppose isn't the right word for it.
I bid it did bother Alexander II when his wife couldnt do her duties and was ill all the time. poor thing (Maria Alexandrovna), really not her fault.
As for Ekaterina Dolgorukova, if Alexander II lived for a few more years it would have been possible that Ekaterina would have become "Empress" and whould have imperial duties, by being still young and healthy would have performed her duties well.
I don't have a problem understanding what you meant, I am just not sure on what evidence you postulate that Maria Alexandrovna wasn't "doing her imperial duty", or that Alexander II expected his wife and empress to be a beauty and fashion leader. It was not his expectation when he married her and I am not aware of any evidence that their early married life was in any way impaired by a disappointment on his part that she was not such a person. Nor am I aware of any reproaches he expressed to her that she "couldn't do her duties and was ill all the time" which in any case there seems little evidence of until her terminal illness of later years (and her predecessor, Alexandra Feodorovna, had ill-health issues which did not affect her basic imperial role). While it is understandable that Alexander II should look outside his marriage particularly for sex when his wife's health made this difficult if not impossible for her [leaving all questions of morality aside], I am not convinced that there is any evidence that Maria Alexandrovna was such a poor empress in her imperial role that Alexander wished to replace her on that basis. Of course he did want to replace her, but that was on the basis, frankly, of falling in love with a much younger woman to whom he was in sexual thrall. With regard to any future imperial role for Ekaterina Dolgorukova, she had major handicaps foremost of which was the resentment of her husband's family. As for the social duties, the morality of the times was that marriage did not remove the taint of former adultery and it was frankly shocking to the general public for the emperor to flaunt the relationship or for Ekaterina to take a high-profile role. Whether she was young and healthy and performed the duties well was not, in itself, the major point.
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I see, gotcha ya. :) Base on what I have read about them (Alexander II and his wives) over the years - that is my expression of them. Opinion wise I suppose. True will we never know if Ekaterina would be if she was crowned Empress. as for Maria Alexandrovna, she was unpopular and was hardly at court due to her health, which isnt an opinion but a fact.
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Hmmm, it is interesting to think that on one side, court, society and the general public were shocked at the Alexander II flaunting his mistress so openly in front of everyone including the Empress but on the other side the Empress herself wasn't very popular at court.
I kind of think that Alexander II was going through a mid life crisis
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True! Because of that Empress Maria Alexandrovna was greatly pitied and many courtiers took her side and despised the Mistress Ekaterina! However Maria Alexandrovna’s unpopularity didn’t change much.
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Poor woman, glad that many of the court did that. I remember reading in Alexander II: The Last Great Tsar about how the whole court knew when Ekaterina became Alexander's mistress. You can just imagine what the Empress thought or who was the one who told the Empress.
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Portrait of Empress Maria Alexandrovna, new to me: Click here!! (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/thelostgallery/6949584525/)
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Portrait of Empress Maria Alexandrovna, new to me: Click here!! (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/thelostgallery/6949584525/)
A bad copy of Winterhalter I would say.
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I agree. She looks dreadful!
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A major reason why the court were shocked at Alexander's flaunting of his mistress was that she was a young unmarried girl from one of the greatest families in Russia.
Ann
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Hmmm... it's not really a copy but the painter definitively used the Winterhalter one as a model -he ruined it, I accept-. She looks terribly languid besides the bad work that the painter did. :-/
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Winterhalter was a genious. Look at this studio portrait of Maria, It was inspired in the famous portrait, but somehow, she looks a bit older than in the other one
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5161/winterhalterfranzxavers.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/winterhalterfranzxavers.jpg/)
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Portrait of Empress Maria Alexandrovna, new to me: Click here!! (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/thelostgallery/6949584525/)
Not Maria Alexandrovna , but another lady
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:E.S._Kaznakova_(Neklyudova)_by_I.Makarov_(1861).jpg
Dont trust so much in inet tags. In that flickr gallery i found TONS of mislabeled images, so watch out! ;-)
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Wow! We were blaming the painter for doing a bad job with the portrait and it wasn't true, the lady portrayed was a Russian indeed but not the Empress Maria Alexandrovna! Yes, frequently the pictures are mislabeled, for the next time I'll consider more seriously about the reliability of certain captions. Thanks for pointing this out! (x_x)
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The Empress...
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingSissi/empressmaria_zps9a8e267f.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingSissi/empressmaria_zps9a8e267f.jpg.html)
*****Source:humus' livejournal*****
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(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3745/8941718933_ed0031b387_o.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna by Jacotin.
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(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/GDNastya/mariaalexandrovna.jpg) (http://s144.photobucket.com/user/GDNastya/media/mariaalexandrovna.jpg.html)
Maria Alexandrovna by Hau
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(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3811/8847183827_709a32a42f_o.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna.
Thank you for posting a larger version of that Hau portrait, GDNastya :)
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From livejournal, 1855, AII and his wife
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/DarlingCharlotte/AII_MA_zps0167b3e3.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/DarlingCharlotte/AII_MA_zps0167b3e3.jpg.html)
A bit bigger here! (http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/DarlingCharlotte/AII_MA_zps0167b3e3.jpg)
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I have to say in the actual photos of the Empress, she looks very forbidding. I know that they told people not to smile due to exposure time or something like that, I have a picture of my great, great, great grandparents and they are not smiling either. But wow what a difference between a painting and a actual picture.
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[(http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s477/chrishiggins1980/Picture660_zps614fd165.jpg) (http://s1053.photobucket.com/user/chrishiggins1980/media/Picture660_zps614fd165.jpg.html)]
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Found these two in a pair of Russian sites:
Empress MA
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/MA_Russia_zps3f2f1640.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/MA_Russia_zps3f2f1640.jpg.html)
In reply #305, Carolath posted another photo of the same photosession.
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/empressMA1_zps9d9671dc.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/empressMA1_zps9d9671dc.jpg.html)
****Click on the Images for Bigger****
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Found that gown at this site (http://direct-beauty.ru/fashion/outfit/556-royal-fashion-maria-alexandrovna-loved-shoes) labeled as Empress Maria Alexandrovna's. Seems like some kind of night gown.
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/GownEmpressMA_zps7edc1874.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/GownEmpressMA_zps7edc1874.jpg.html)
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Found that gown at this site labeled as Empress Maria Alexandrovna's. Seems like some kind of night gown.
White muslin day dresses were very common and were worn over petticoats/crinolines which created a bell shape for the skirt. They were usually worn over plain white or pastel-shaded under-dresses which could be more easily cleaned or exchanged. This could be a peignoir (too fancy for a night gown) or it could be a rather poorly-displayed day dress. The mantle looks like summer-weight which would go with the dress.
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Just found this photo (on the website marked on the top)
(http://www.etoretro.ru/data/media/19/1381337710869.jpg)
It has Maria ALexandrovna, Alexander II., the lady in white is labeled as Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna. The little kid description lists him as Nixa. Any idea who are the other people?
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Those are Alexander II and his family with the members of their and children's suite. In front row MA and A II with son Sergei and daughter Maria, the young woman at the very right is Prss Alexandra Dolgorukaya (one of the A II's mistresses) (a distant relative of future AII's second wife). Behind A II is his friend Count Alexander Adlerberg.
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From the Royal Collection >>credits for it<<
Empress Maria Alexandrovna in coronation robes:
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/th_marilexandrovna_zps6b11a1ca.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/marilexandrovna_zps6b11a1ca.jpg.html)
Reading:
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/th_marialexandrovna_zps265a60a6.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/marialexandrovna_zps265a60a6.jpg.html)
Portrait:
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/th_lexandrovbna_zpse482d843.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/lexandrovbna_zpse482d843.jpg.html)
Click on the images for bigger!!
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This is listed as Empress Maria Alexandrovna but I'm not sure if it really is
(http://33.media.tumblr.com/00d420f8741817cffd6b4cd28cc93bc2/tumblr_mifi2rjq4o1rqdmblo1_500.png)
teatimeatwinterpalace tumblr
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At Heligenberg in 1864:
(from the left) Julie, Princess of Battenberg; Elisabeth of Prussia, Princess Carl of Hesse; Prince Carl of Hesse; Prince Wilhelm of Hesse; Empress Marie Alexandrovna of Russia, Prince Louis of Hesse, Prince Gustav Vasa (Sweden), Princess Alice of Hesse and Prince Alexander of Hesse.
(http://www.royalbooks.se/static/webimages/original/alb32.jpg)
[from HESSE-DARMSTADT - A Family Album]
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A monument of the Empress at Mariehamn, Finland
(http://cs613427.vk.me/v613427079/1cda3/zbBu-XmUDSQ.jpg)
(http://cs613427.vk.me/v613427079/1cd8f/47GrgJ8fAmU.jpg)
(http://cs613427.vk.me/v613427079/1cd85/W7tT_PFIFtY.jpg)
(http://cs613427.vk.me/v613427079/1cdb7/C4aB64SI2gM.jpg)
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/t1.0-9/p403x403/1458520_10152054784923987_242944931_n.jpg?oh=0d13d2b343a84208a508950862e7a6e8&oe=545BB7D5&__gda__=1417493807_249d1ee76f08024b8364227b5a4e5058)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/q84/p480x480/1471240_10152054784283987_1487888148_n.jpg)
https://www.facebook.com/pages/HIM-Tsarina-Maria-Feodorovna/261864943986?ref=stream
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(http://cs622822.vk.me/v622822079/d906/p2F0TCJZZWw.jpg)
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I feel sorry for Maria...
She lost her two eldest children, lost the love of her husband and had to see his Mistress and their children in her home...
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Taken from a Russian site of liveinternet:
Empress Maria Alexandrovna blessing the sisters of mercy that were going to war, 1877
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/MariaAlexandrovna_zpsfbb619fa.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/MariaAlexandrovna_zpsfbb619fa.jpg.html)
The Empress in deathbed and her husband at her side.
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/postmortem_zps7be032d0.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/postmortem_zps7be032d0.jpg.html)
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These portraits are kinda unflattering
(http://cs314616.vk.me/v314616214/6c74/DTPtmfRxW-I.jpg)
Detail
(http://cs314616.vk.me/v314616214/6c86/IVMNo8eL1zs.jpg)
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I was recently looking for pics and I found this with the name of the Empress below. I don't understand Greek and can't read what it's written in the upper part, so I want to ask if this is actually she.
From a 1850's magazine.
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/MAAlexandrovna_zps6bij7xhm.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/MAAlexandrovna_zps6bij7xhm.jpg.html)
****The image was taken from the next Russian site: http://lavande-la.livejournal.com/, credits to it.****
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It doesn't look much like her, but I believe that is supposed to be Maria Alexandrovna.
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The next come from the Royal Collection, credits to it.
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/z_MAR2_zpswnewmx6y.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/z_MAR2_zpswnewmx6y.jpg.html)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/z_MAR_zpsubowi9ut.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/z_MAR_zpsubowi9ut.jpg.html)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/z_ER2_zpsm9luk2wz.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/z_ER2_zpsm9luk2wz.jpg.html)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/z_ER_zpsevnrkh8b.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/z_ER_zpsevnrkh8b.jpg.html)
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The Empress and her grandson Alfred
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/grandmotherMA_zps0iznrfoc.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/grandmotherMA_zps0iznrfoc.jpg.html)
Younger MA, from liveinternet
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/youngMAliveinternet_zpsnto9brkd.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/youngMAliveinternet_zpsnto9brkd.jpg.html)
In court dress. Credits for www.nlr.ru
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingCharlotte/courtgown_zpssakmp935.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/DarlingCharlotte/courtgown_zpssakmp935.jpg.html)
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Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine in Darmstad (august 9th, 1840) saying goodbye. She was leaving her homeland for marrying Tsarevich Alexander.
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/MA_zpsqhnem0bg.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/MA_zpsqhnem0bg.jpg.html)
Maria Alexandrovna in 1842.
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/maria%20alexandrovna%201842_zpsjpyge3kz.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/maria%20alexandrovna%201842_zpsjpyge3kz.jpg.html)
>>Credits on the images<<
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Finally a nice colour version of this one
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/331a8821e1f4837abef3fc7941d56083/tumblr_o0uv9zCau01rh07xwo1_r1_1280.jpg)
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(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1452/26490029985_de32a849a3_b.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna by Winberg.
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(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7310/28343782146_2889a1e50f_h.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna by Briullov.
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Young Empress Maria Alexandrovna
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/ErzsiMarie/MaAl_zpsdj6r1ulz.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/ErzsiMarie/MaAl_zpsdj6r1ulz.jpg.html)
By Zichy with her husband and three of her eldest surviving sons
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/ErzsiMarie/Alexandrovna_zpsrox4h1eh.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/ErzsiMarie/Alexandrovna_zpsrox4h1eh.jpg.html)
Taken from pinterest.
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I don't remeber seeing this portrait before in this thread...
The Empress, credits on the image
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/ErzsiMarie/marieAlexandrovna_zps9fby1kzx.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/ErzsiMarie/marieAlexandrovna_zps9fby1kzx.jpg.html)
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HEre it is unmarked
(http://nd06.jxs.cz/671/474/da754a86b4_97849609_o2.jpg)
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(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7310/28343782146_2889a1e50f_h.jpg)
Maria Alexandrovna by Briullov.
Sorry--this is actually Ekaterina Mikhailovna.
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(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8714/28836451295_8b5185909b_z.jpg)
This one is Maria Alexandrovna by Briullov.
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Raphael’s Madonna in Empress Marie’s Cabinet in the Winter Palace – Part 2
https://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.ca/2016/08/raphaels-madonna-in-empress-maries.html
Joanna
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Thanks for the unmarked one Ally!
From The Royal Collection
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Darling%20Sissi/mariahesse_zps2cktmjyq.jpg) (http://s686.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinAlzbeta/media/Darling%20Sissi/mariahesse_zps2cktmjyq.jpg.html)
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Empress Marie’s Boudoir in the Winter Palace
https://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.ca/2016/09/empress-maries-boudoir-in-winter-palace.html
Joanna
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(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/GDNastya/MA.jpg) (http://s144.photobucket.com/user/GDNastya/media/MA.jpg.html)
Maria Alexandrovna