Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Imperial Russian Antiques => Topic started by: PeterBB on April 05, 2010, 01:16:11 PM

Title: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 05, 2010, 01:16:11 PM
Following was advised by one here on AF I refer readers to:

I realized that it is a princely crown. But where can I find the princerly family name that belonged to these creast? I can not make more clear in these pictures than I have!

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/bestickar1.jpg)
Title: Re: Who owned the princely crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 05, 2010, 01:55:41 PM
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Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 06, 2010, 06:32:17 PM
The odd number of quarterings make me suspect the arms could be Russian. In that case you migh try browsing the online version of Общего гербовника дворянских родов Всероссийской империи, the General Armorial of Noble Families of the All-Russian Empire (http://gerbovnik.ru/)
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 07, 2010, 10:37:29 AM
Thank you and I´ll making a trying to find the coat of arms of some Russian family at the homepage you speak about!
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 09, 2010, 09:44:07 AM
the coat of arms looks quite intricate.  My guess from the crown is that it isnt Russian.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 09, 2010, 12:06:09 PM
I have making a new picture of the coat of arms and hope some can see which family was that!

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/DD-coatofarms.jpg)
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 09, 2010, 01:20:03 PM
Commenting especially on Reply #5, but earlier ones as well on this piece of silver:  I haven't given it much thought, but I do feel that the coat of arms probably IS NOT Russian.  The crown is troubling in that it's not the Russian Imperial Crown, and I don't think that it was MEANT to be.  Closed arches in a crown generally indicate the holder of the arms is some sort of ruling entity, I believe. The quarterings are a bit troublesome to me, in that they ALMOST seem to be mirror images of each other, looking at the rampart lion/leopard repeats. I may be incorrect, but I am seeing this shield as bearing the quaterings/charges of TWO people.  Thus for a union of two people to have such similiar quarterings is interesting, to say the least, IMO.
 We have yet to address the crowned script initials, which are in Latin letters, apparently. THAT crown is more finely detailed, and I seemingly see fleurs-de-lis (?) in a band below the arches.  Of course, the crowned monogram was undoubtedly later added than the arms (or, vice-versa !).  Heraldry is an exceedingly complex "science," and I am certainly no authority.  At the far end of the spectrum of thought:  Are we dealing with a piece/s of silver, that somewhere along its life-span has had spurious arms/adornments added to increase its value?  Just a thought.  IF I had to venture a guess that the arms ARE authentic, then I would go in the "German arena" of heraldry. What is known of this piece's history and are there more similiarly-adorned ones?  To be sure, there should be hallmarks, etc. present to attest to the date of manufacture, quality of the silver, etc.  of the item/s. There appears to be relatively little wear on the engravings, but of course they are protected to some extent by the raised surrounding patten.  Just some points of thought, with no pretense of being definitive.    AP
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 09, 2010, 02:54:25 PM
Commenting especially on Reply #5, but earlier ones as well on this piece of silver:  I haven't given it much thought, but I do feel that the coat of arms probably IS NOT Russian.  The crown is troubling in that it's not the Russian Imperial Crown, and I don't think that it was MEANT to be.  Closed arches in a crown generally indicate the holder of the arms is some sort of ruling entity, I believe.

The heraldic crown above the arms, a cap lined with fur and with four (three visible) pearl-studded arches surmounted by a globe with cross quite clearly most resembles the generic Russian and German princely crown or cap (Fürstenhut / Княжеская шапка), which also were used by ancient princely families in the Low Countries. As can be seen from the overviews in heraldic handbooks and elder encyclopædias, there were minor differences between the crowns or caps of serene vs. illustrious princes and sovereign / mediatized / newly created princes in Germany and Austria. But as the images are not very clear, I will not speculate in such detail.
The crown above the monogramm, though, looks like a generic royal crown, which also was used by reigning grand dukes and dukes in Western Europe.

The upper half of the first quartering looks intriguingly similar to the red-golden Bars of Aragon which appear in so many arms in the Western Meditterranean, but could of course very well be from somewhere else. I do agree that the "medieval charges" and absence of typical modern military charges like cannons and such make it less likely Russian.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 09, 2010, 03:13:36 PM
Re Reply # 7: Thank you for your observations !  I see that we are close in thought. (Heraldry is such an arcane subject!)  I am STILL interested in the presence of hallmarks that might "herald" (pun intended) the origin of this piece.  Though hallmarks, like engravings, can and are, falsely applied on pieces, I think the markings on this piece would be instructive.  How about it, "PeterBB"?  Kind regards,  AP  
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 10, 2010, 07:09:04 AM
Yes it is an interesting read accepted by the loading of the APF and I also wonder a lot of them - my problem is that the family married to a noble family lots from all over Europe and I have no overview of these coat of arms. But it is very true to the princely and Grand Dukes / Dukes crown - note the Russian Imperial Crown!
Question is whether it is French or German or Aragon is an open question! That is why I turn to you here at the APF and I do not know right where I would turn to receive further information about this coat of arms! But I can say that silver is from between 1830-1860 and there are two masterpieces, and Veyrier Demessieur - both were the Royal Court Jewellers. Veyrier's shop was taken over by Odiot.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 10, 2010, 12:07:18 PM
It definitely isnt Russian as the cross at that top of the crown is Latin and not Orthodox.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 10, 2010, 12:17:03 PM
It definitely isnt Russian as the cross at that top of the crown is Latin and not Orthodox.
Try googling Княжеская шапка, princely cap, and you'll see that you're wrong. BTW the cross is not a Latin cross, but a cross pattée, which is a variety of the Greek cross.
BTW not even the Imperial Crown has an Orthodox Cross on top.
I think a few Russian princely caps were without crosses, but they were in the arms of Muslim princes in the Empire.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 10, 2010, 12:33:50 PM
The cross is not that clear in the picture but it definitely looks latin to me.  The cross pattée or maltese cross is what appears on the Russian imperial crown and this crown is not close to that.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 10, 2010, 12:50:16 PM
The cross is not that clear in the picture but it definitely looks latin to me.  The cross pattée or maltese cross is what appears on the Russian imperial crown and this crown is not close to that.
It looks like a badly drawn Greek cross to me. Unless it actually is a crescent on a pin and thus belongs to a Muslim prince.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 10, 2010, 01:13:54 PM
well we will have to disagree then
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 10, 2010, 02:29:23 PM
well we will have to disagree then
So how would you describe the crosses on the generic German and Russian princely caps then?

A thought:
Since one of the few parallells to other arms that I could were the Cantacuzene arms, which also features bars, which are quite rare in Eastern European heraldry, it struck me that we might be dealing with one of the several Wallachian or Romanian princely families, whose arms unfortunately are poorly documented, I guess, compared to German and Russian princely families.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 10, 2010, 03:49:03 PM
Re Reply # 9:  Thank you, "PeterBB," for your reply.  I am curious, since you have presented several diverse items recently.  Are you an antiques dealer, a collector, or both?  Best regards,  AP
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 11, 2010, 06:10:22 AM
the german crosses are mainly maltese and the Russian one of the imperial crown is a maltese one but the religious cross is typically orthodox
this cross looks latin to me.  Straight cross bars.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 11, 2010, 07:14:09 AM
I want a serious discussion about this coat of arms, not a guess playing and I am almost one hundred percent certain that you are wrong that it was a Muslim prince and you can now take a look at two copies in Russian prince coat of arm. I am sure-fire that you know the Princes Yusupov family and which you can very well see that they have a cross at the crown, not a Russian cross is! So where have you been mistaken to believe that there is no Latin or Malt Cross Ash in Russian coat of arms!

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/coatofarmsofthePrincesYusupov_mini.jpg)
Coat of arms of the Princes Yusupov

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/CoatofarmsoftheprincesKoltsov-Mosal.jpg)
Coat of arms of the Princes Koltsov-Mosal
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 11, 2010, 07:58:15 AM
the german crosses are mainly maltese and the Russian one of the imperial crown is a maltese one
It's not the Imperial Crown that is the issue, but princely caps.

Quote
this cross looks latin to me.  Straight cross bars.
A Greek cross also has straight arms (though of equal length).

I am almost one hundred percent certain that you are wrong that it was a Muslim prince and you can now take a look at two copies in Russian prince coat of arm. I am sure-fire that you know the Princes Yusupov family
I am also quite sure it's a normal cross on a normal prince's crown, but just to clear things up:
The Yussupovs were once Muslims (hence the crescent in their arms), but had converted to Orthodox Christianity a long time ago. Thus it's natural that their arms feature a cap with a cross. The princely cap without cross I mentioned belonged to some Russian subjected princes (on the Crimea or Central Asia) who still were Muslims, as far as I recall.

he quarterings are a bit troublesome to me, in that they ALMOST seem to be mirror images of each other, looking at the rampart lion/leopard repeats. I may be incorrect, but I am seeing this shield as bearing the quaterings/charges of TWO people.  Thus for a union of two people to have such similiar quarterings is interesting, to say the least, IMO.
Agreed. You would expect the quarterings to be:
1, 2
2, 1
and not
1, 2
1, 2 like here.
And the mirroring issue is very odd too.
I would say that points to Eastern Europe, i.e. a complicated coat of arms that was designed from scratch.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 11, 2010, 10:52:25 AM
if  you want educated evaluations take it to Sothebys or Christies.  This is an amateur forum so we enjoy our amateur guesses.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 11, 2010, 01:30:39 PM
Re Reply # 9:  Thank you, "PeterBB," for your reply.  I am curious, since you have presented several diverse items recently.  Are you an antiques dealer, a collector, or both?  Best regards,  AP

I´m not antiques dealer, but I´m owned to a lot of Antiques pieces by inheritanced, some I have received from friends and some I bought at auction.
Now I just cataloging these objects in a correct way, because I called for information and miscellaneous information.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 11, 2010, 01:39:12 PM
if  you want educated evaluations take it to Sothebys or Christies.  This is an amateur forum so we enjoy our amateur guesses.

Do you think that at Christie's or Sotheby aware of the different family coat of arms that were / are found throughout Europe and Russia - so that they can give me an answer?
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 11, 2010, 01:51:48 PM
I've looked at several steel princely Russian Grand Dukes and the coat of arms - all of them have the same type of crown that I have shown. So I wondered if there really are talking about a Muslim type of crown. It is my strong doubts about! Lions are also a lot of western europe royal / princely / Duke's coat of arms!

With regard to Yusupov's coat of arms - There Is also a Star of David, a Jewish symbol, and in combining production with Muslim´s crescent? It is perhaps a bit far away?
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Constantinople on April 11, 2010, 02:18:40 PM
both sothebys and christies have a lot of academic strength,  I dealt with them a lot when i lived in London.  They hae a huge cross ability to analyse most forms of art and antigues and a huge reference library,
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: Tony de Gandarillas on April 11, 2010, 11:56:39 PM
Hello Peter,

I'm not sure this will help or not.  According to Carl-Alexander von Volborth's Heraldry-Customs, Rules and Styles, the shield shape itself is an important clue as to the origin.  It shape of the shield is Hungarian.  In regards to the Furstenhut, it was used by the Princes and Dukes of the Holy Roman Empire.  Best Regards.
Title: Re: Who owned the family crest?
Post by: PeterBB on April 12, 2010, 05:33:57 AM
To Tony de Gandarillas, thanks for the information and know what you might Familien for this? Best regards, Peter