Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => People v. Nicholas II Alexandrovich => Topic started by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2004, 10:41:25 AM

Title: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2004, 10:41:25 AM
It has been suggested on another thread that Nicholas II (and by extension, his family) was guilty of Crimes Against Russia and therefore deserved the murders at Ekaterinburg. I think we should exclude from the discussion whether or not one believes in capital punishment or not. We should also exclude the criminality of the Ekaterinburg murders - it is a separate issue.

What I would like to hear from anyone who cares to participate is this: just what crimes do you think Nicholas committed?

I am willing to defend Nicholas and his family, and I would imagine one or two others would consider helping with this. However, before we can mount a defense, we need to know exactly what those who think "they deserved it" did to merit this treatment.

Responses are most welcome.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 28, 2004, 11:09:11 AM
This will be a tough one to quantify. "Crimes" are usually defined within the context of law. In an autocracy, the law is majorly in the hands of the autocrat, therefore, it would be difficult to suggest he/she would be breaking their own laws, from a legal standpoint.
Morally, however, international laws and standards can be put into place to judge any ruler, regardless of whether or not the ruler was within his/her rights in their own country. Given the extreme supression of human rights on a global scale during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it seems difficult to imagine Nickolas being singled out as more worthy of being put to death than the robber barons of America, the empire builders of Britain, etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2004, 11:46:11 AM
Well, we are told by many people that the Ekaterinburg murders really are not so horrible because the IF "deserved it". And so, I am asking those who believe this to be specific about what the IF did that could be considered a crime.

I am also asking those who don't feel the IF "deserved it" if they would be willing to defend the family or a specific family member against these charges, once they are brought forward.

I agree that fallen heads of state can be held responsible at an international level for "crimes against humanity". However, for purposes of discussion, we are interested in "Crimes Against Russia".
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: rskkiya on November 28, 2004, 11:50:32 AM
Who are the "many people" that your were refering to?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2004, 11:57:32 AM
Well, there are mentions of this throught this Forum. On the Topic "Anastasia's Tragedy", there are a couple of people talking this way. I suggested that they move the discussion here and to be specific about what they think Nicholas did to merit serious charges.

In previous discussions, I have heard the phrase "they deserved it" used. So, I am asking.

What's your view on this?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Sergio on November 28, 2004, 12:18:37 PM

This is not my personal opinion, but I will be the devil`s advocate.

Some people think that the Imperial Family "deserved" to be killed because they lived in such luxury and millions of people lived in great misery.

So, Nicholas`s crime was: as a Tsar he didn`t worried neither improved the people`s life quality.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: rlbumich on November 28, 2004, 12:21:29 PM
I believe that this is for the people of Russia to decide what "crimes" did Nicholas II commit. Afterall, we as (most) Westerns are on the outside looking in. I have the same feeling about Josef Stalin. He was a butcher and mass murderer but nervertheless some Russians still view him as a hero! Led the Soviet Union to victory during the "Great Patriotic War". Not trying to compare Nicholas to Stalin but there are so many viewpoints on "crimes against the Russian people from within their country committed by their leaders thoughout their history"

We all have our opinions.  :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 28, 2004, 12:35:32 PM
I for one am in no way trying to interfere with any rights the people of Russia have to evaluate their own history. This subject was raised under a different topic - Anastasia Tragedy - and was moved here. It will take a person less than a minute to read the posts of those who feel this way.

We do, however, have the right to discuss this if anyone else is interested in doing so. As of now, there is one charge:

Failure to improve the quality of life for his people. Secondarily, living in luxury when others had so little.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 28, 2004, 01:00:39 PM
Incompetance doesn't cut it eh?
OK, as Emperor, he was responsible for the actions of his ministers, he appointed them. So, corruption, abuse of powers, theft, murder, [this is tricky, I amit], illegal exile [internal as well as external], undue influence- that alone is a bag of worms. violation of whatever justice there was, arbitrary  punishment, illegal servitude.
That should do for starters?
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Elisabeth on November 28, 2004, 01:55:44 PM
Robert, these are very general charges, you need to be more specific. Are you referring to the suppression of the 1905 Revolution as an abuse of power? "Stolypin's Neckties" as murder? I'm curious: why is it that when we discuss the crimes of the Soviet regime, we can cite statistics to back up every specific charge, but when it comes to accusing the Romanovs of crimes, none of the accusers seems able to come up with any numbers? Or anything but the most blanket of accusations?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 28, 2004, 02:07:23 PM
Hey, Lisa just asked for accusations, those were some of them, I'm not presecuting !
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 28, 2004, 02:12:06 PM
However, there are probably some details with illegal manipulation of the Duma, the abdication itself has questions and f course, the destruction of Russia.
But all that is for the lawyers to find evidence & defense.
Is it not?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: rskkiya on November 28, 2004, 05:04:47 PM
Many who die deserve life - can you give it to them?
(my dreadful paraphracing of one of the greatest English authors of the 20th century...JRR Tolkien) ::)

   Well as a good socialist I would have to say that IF the Autocratic Tzar indeed had complete and supreme power over Russia - then he was responsible for both the successes and failures of his reign. Those failures would be his "Crimes."
    I am no fan of NAOTMAA and I see the executions as an act of Revolutionary Justice. Was it nice to kill the 'cute little kids'? NO! But then again many 'cute little kids' died on Bloody Sunday, in numerous pogroms and in various military reactions to strikes and protests -- and few people are terribly keen to discuss them.

   I am sorry if my beliefs are too strident, but revolution is a bloody business.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on November 28, 2004, 06:47:43 PM
Bloody Sunday is a big event and should be  discuss as being or not being one of   Nicholas II's "crime" toward the people of Russia.

This topic will prove to be  deep, dark and controversial.  So, please, no name calling and if some words anger you, wait for a day before writing a calm polite post, PLEASE.

First,  we have to find what historical facts we can all agree upon on the events of that day.

Let's start with who was present,  such as, the people who arranged the march, the leaders, the reason for the march, and the various groups who were part of the march.

Let's also mention the military guards and their duties.

Also, it is a given fact that Nicholas II was not present in the city on this day.

I'm going to have to dig out some books from boxes that have been moved back to my studio which is, now,  useable but stacked high with boxes that were in my garage.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on November 28, 2004, 07:04:56 PM
Quote
I am no fan of NAOTMAA and I see the executions as an act of Revolutionary Justice. Was it nice to kill the 'cute little kids'? NO! But then again many 'cute little kids' died on Bloody Sunday, in numerous pogroms and in various military reactions to strikes and protests -- and few people are terribly keen to discuss them.


I second Rskkiya's comments.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: JM on November 28, 2004, 07:15:52 PM
Quote
I am no fan of NAOTMAA and I see the executions as an act of Revolutionary Justice. Was it nice to kill the 'cute little kids'? NO! But then again many 'cute little kids' died on Bloody Sunday, in numerous pogroms and in various military reactions to strikes and protests -- and few people are terribly keen to discuss them.

What exactly is the purpose of this "Revolutionary Justice" you speak of? Were the murders of OTMAA an appeasement to all of those who may have died under the reign of their Father? Did their deaths give credence to the new regime and did it make all those who suffered under their Father feel better? And did this "Revolutionary Justice" absolve their murderers of -- murder?

BTW, I'm not insinuating that you conform to the beliefs that my questions seem to assume; they're just questions.  :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on November 28, 2004, 09:35:11 PM
The only questionable act which Nikolai committed was a constitutional one. It was his act of abdication which fell outside the ambit of the Laws of Succession.

All societies have rich and poor, and this divide cannot be held against the Emperor. No such society will ever exist.  

Regicide is not "revolutionary justice" these words only color the excuse for an act of unprecedented act of barbarism against the Imperial family conducted by a bunch of drunken thugs who happened to be revolutionaries caring little about life. Look at the rewards they all reaped by their actions ... Certainly not revolutionary paradise that was promised ...
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on November 29, 2004, 03:45:49 AM
Nikolai II, diary entry on the issue of the October Manifesto, 19th October, 1905.

Through all these horrible days, I constantly met Witte. We very often met in the early morning to part only in the evening when night fell. There were only two ways open; to find an energetic soldier and crush the rebellion by sheer force. That would mean rivers of blood, and in the end we would be where had started. The other way out would be to give to the people their civil rights, freedom of speech and press, also to have laws conformed by a State Duma - that of course would be a constitution. Witte defends this very energetically.

Almost everybody I had an opportunity of consulting, is of the same opinion. Witte put it quite clearly to me that he would accept the Presidency of the Council of Ministers only on the condition that his programme was agreed to, and his actions not interfered with. We discussed it for two days and in the end, invoking God's help I signed. This terrible decision which nevertheless I took quite consciously. I had no one to rely on except honest Trepov. There was no other way out but to cross oneself and give what everyone was asking for.


Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on November 29, 2004, 07:35:10 AM
Great idea Lisa for this thread.

I would love to hear what specific crimes against the Russian people that Nicholas would be accussed of.

What specific crimes? What crimes if any would you have Alexandra charged with?

What would you do with the children? Let them go, or also charge them with crimes against the Russian people?

Louise
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Val289 on November 29, 2004, 09:24:46 AM
Quote
What exactly is the purpose of this "Revolutionary Justice" you speak of? Were the murders of OTMAA an appeasement to all of those who may have died under the reign of their Father? Did their deaths give credence to the new regime and did it make all those who suffered under their Father feel better? And did this "Revolutionary Justice" absolve their murderers of -- murder?


BTW, I'm not insinuating that you conform to the beliefs that my questions seem to assume; they're just questions.  :)



And very good questions to ask -  JM ;)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on November 29, 2004, 09:30:09 AM
Quote
What would you do with the children? Let them go, or also charge them with crimes against the Russian people?


Why would you charge the children? They had done nothing.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 29, 2004, 09:49:42 AM
Hypothetically, as this presumably would have been a political rather than real criminal trial, simply "being who they were" would be crime enough. Particularly the heir.  Cruel & inhuman of course, but expedient none the less.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 29, 2004, 11:04:13 AM
Good topic. I was in this topic when it was on the other thread.

I'm going to try and come in this thread open minded and not have fixed thoughts. However I am leaning towards the defence of teh family. NII was quite the push-over, so many of the things that happend through his rule were ideas of pushy uncles or his wife. I'm not anti-Alix at all.. Just trying to give ideas  :P
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2004, 11:28:04 AM
Quote
...in part...

Nikolai II, diary entry on the issue of the October Manifesto, 19th October, 1905.

Through all these horrible days, I constantly met Witte. We very often met in the early morning to part only in the evening when night fell. There were only two ways open; to find an energetic soldier and crush the rebellion by sheer force. That would mean rivers of blood, and in the end we would be where had started. The other way out would be to give to the people their civil rights, freedom of speech and press, also to have laws conformed by a State Duma - that of course would be a constitution. Witte defends this very energetically. ...

...There was no other way out but to cross oneself and give what everyone was asking for....


Sounds like Nicholas II was against the shedding of blood and, in my eyes,  these words alone seem  to  show  Nicholas II was a wiser and better man than Lenin or Stalin were at any time of their dictatorships.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 29, 2004, 11:51:48 AM
Since the person supposedly most keen on a trial was Trotsky (I believe he even wanted to broadcast it) did he, in his voluminous writings, give details of what the charges were to be?  
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on November 29, 2004, 12:19:17 PM
I put this on another thread, but it helps illustrate the point:

Goloshchyokin went to see Sverdlov in Moscow about allowing the Ural Soviet to execute the IF in early July 1918. Sverdlov consulted Lenin about what to do with the IF. Lenin spoke of bringing the tsar's family to Moscow for an open trial of Nicholas and Alexandra. "It must be an All-Russian trial only! With publications in the press.  It is necessary to count what human and material losses to the country were caused by the autocrat during his reign.  How many revolutionaries were hung? How many people died in penal servitude and in a war nobody needed? He must answer for that, facing all the people!...It is the incomprehensible Russian credulity [of the Russian peasants] that must be discredited at the open trial of Nicholas the Bloody..." as reported being said by Lenin by Goloshchyokin.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on November 29, 2004, 01:34:24 PM
Olga, what would you do with the children then? Would you take them away from their parents? What would you do with Alexei? Alive he is a banner to rally behind. Dead he is a martyr.

What would you do with the girls. Would you put them on trial, because their father and his government instituted pogroms and innocent Jewish children died. Innocent children died in Bloody Sunday. Would this be the eye for an eye situation?

What would you do with Alix? Trial? Freedom? Exile?

If Nicholas was on trail, what would be the specific charges? Can we apply late 20th and 21st century to that period of time? Can we apply our rules and laws of a democracy to a autocracy? Would the charges then be leveled in the early 20th century morals and laws?

If some on the board are going to defend Nicholas and his family then we need to know what is meant by "Crimes against the Russian People"

Louise
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Elisabeth on November 29, 2004, 02:57:00 PM
Yes, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Provisional Government initially toy with the idea of putting Nicholas and Alexandra on trial? And didn't they conduct their own intensive investigation, finally deciding that there were insufficient grounds on which to indict either the tsar or tsarina?

As for the question of OTMAA's tragic fates - don't worry, Louise, 99.9% of us do not hold children responsible for the crimes of their parents - under any circumstances. Otherwise we would all be pursuing blood feuds into infinity and civilization as we know it would collapse.  
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: rskkiya on November 29, 2004, 03:36:41 PM
Elizabeth,

I agree, there were plans for a "trial" so to speak ...but due to the chaotic situation at the time (Bolshevics vs S.R.s vs. Anarchists) in the capital, the Case of "the People vs Nicholas Romanov" never took place ...There were supposedly also plans to execute Nicholas and sent the family into exile in Germany - once again this did not happen either.

I am not saying- nor have I ever said- that it was good to kill the children. Sadly life is full of good intentions and failed promises, as was Nicholas'  II  reign.


Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on November 29, 2004, 07:48:21 PM
Quote
Yes, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Provisional Government initially toy with the idea of putting Nicholas and Alexandra on trial? And didn't they conduct their own intensive investigation, finally deciding that there were insufficient grounds on which to indict either the tsar or tsarina?
 


Elizabeth you are perfectly correct.

Why not look at how Nikolai's Generals, many of the Duma ministers and most of his own family acted against the Crown? It was they who plotted and turned their backs on all the Russian people. Nikolai lost the confidence of the military, and it was because of their unanimous vote against him, that he decided that his position became untenable. Winning the war was his primary concern.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on November 29, 2004, 09:34:25 PM
Quote
Olga, what would you do with the children then? Would you take them away from their parents? What would you do with Alexei? Alive he is a banner to rally behind. Dead he is a martyr.


I cannot see him surviving because of his position as the Heir.

Quote
What would you do with the girls. Would you put them on trial, because their father and his government instituted pogroms and innocent Jewish children died. Innocent children died in Bloody Sunday. Would this be the eye for an eye situation?


Send them into exile.

Quote
As for the question of OTMAA's tragic fates - don't worry, Louise, 99.9% of us do not hold children responsible for the crimes of their parents - under any circumstances.


I’m included in this 99.9%.

Alexandra Fyodorovna wasn't totally blameless. She was a severe reactionary and fought against any sort of reform for the Russian people.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on November 29, 2004, 09:50:25 PM
Ok so  the girls are sent into exile.

Now what are the specific crimes against the Russian people would you have Nicholas charged with? Would you follow the example of the court (Parliament) that tried Charles I? Would you use the trials at Nurmburg as an example, along with the set of laws that was established by the winning powers after the war.
I don't have my Nuremburg book with me so I can't quite remember all four/five articles and their subarticles.

Would you have a separate trial for Alix? Would N and A be tried together and how would you try Alexei and on what charges?

So, Alix was a severe reactionary who didn't want change for her country. How would you try her for this?

Louise
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 30, 2004, 12:28:26 AM
So, other than the specific charges (and I agree, any charges brought against Nicholas would have to be specific and not general), those who think that Nicholas committed crimes against Russia also believe:

- The Grand Duchesses should go free regardless and sent into exile. Would that be with or without their personal property?

- Alexei would be punished identically to his parents (assuming they would be found guilty) even though he was a minor, primarily because of his political position.

- Therefore, the charges to be brought would be brought against Nicholas and Alexandra. Would that be together or separately?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on November 30, 2004, 12:47:10 AM
Lisa,

Perhaps those who believe that Nikolai is guilty of crimes against the State should specify which Court would have the jurisdiction?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on November 30, 2004, 01:07:03 AM
What I would like to understand is why some posters here are so quick to condemn Nikolai, yet prefer to ignore the deeds of all those upon whom he relied.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on November 30, 2004, 03:08:07 AM
He surrounded himself with yes men.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on November 30, 2004, 07:04:01 AM
let me make a stab at beginning the process.(and this is NOT about NII's persoanl anti-semitism)

when one is beginning to try to construct a case against a leader or a system, there are guidelines as to how to do it.

one can begin with evidence that the leader, his underlings or agencies within his direct control broke specific laws on their own books, laws such as murder, rape, theft, corruption, financial crimes, intimidation (if there are such laws available). that means interviewing eyewitnesses to these events.

usually there are episodes throughout a reign that are identified as incidents appropriate for such further study.  in the case of NII, i would begin with the pogroms in the pale.  as emperor, he had a duty of care for all members of his empire. he was the ultimate guarantor of the law. yet, in the case of the ejws, he failed utterly to keep them safe, from members of his own regime and agencies.

beginning in 1881, more than 30 pogroms were instigated in ukraine, escalating and leading up to the kiev pogrom, the warsaw xmas pogrom, the 1891-92 expulsion of jews from moscow and peaked by the spectacularly murderous events in kishinev in 1903 (+45 dead, hundreds wounded) and odessa in 1905 (+300 dead/thousands injured). in a state with such tight police control as the czarist state, i would examine the okhrana as an agency directly reportable to NII.

there were many testimonies compiled on behalf of a variety of international agencies of the time, so there is firsthand testimony of the particulars.  and there was a large memoir literature written by folks who fled. and of course the best evidence: the millions of jews residing in the pale who emigrated rather than live in such an insecure place.

the state sponsored pogroms were more than just riots: they could be called what we today call "state sponsored terrorism" they were part of the policy created by Pobedenostsev; one third to convert, one third to emigrate, one third to disappear.

NII knew that the kishinev progroms were planned; his minsitry of internal affairs was involved, he personally helped to pay for the leaflets to incite the ugly affair.

between oct 11-29, 1905 there were at least 690 pogroms which murdered thousands, wounded thousands more.  these pogroms were partially incited by two texts the okhrana (and the court of NII) was instrumental in publishing and disseminating: the protocols of the elders of zion and the great in the small.

since WWII, there is a body of international law dealing with genocide, war crimes, the mismanagement of prisoners of war, making war on civilians.  these laws are not retrospective so could not be applied against NII.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on November 30, 2004, 07:41:03 AM
Olga, surrounding yourself with YES men is not a crime against anyone, except perhaps to show how incompetent are as a leader. The sad truth is that our leaders past and present have for the most part surrounded themselves with YES men. Dumb, but not a crime and it would not stand up  in any court of law. Then or now.

Pushkina, thank you for your input regarding the Jewish pale and the pogroms that happened under Nicholas's reign.

Louise
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on November 30, 2004, 09:33:42 AM
Being a (reformed) attorney, let me give you some assistance here.
FIRST, you have to have a specific crime: "murder" "theft" "abuse" etc etc.
then you must demonstrate the crime by specific actions of the person. Basic elements of a criminal prosecution:
a) a crime occurred by showing direct evidence of the crime.
b) the accused  intended the crime occur in advance of the criminal act taking place.
c) the accused directly himself engaged in the criminal activity
d) if he did NOT directly engage in the action, he had knowledge and intent PRIOR to the action occuring and took some direct action (or intentionally FIALED to act to prevent the crime in order that it occur) to aid and abet the commission of that criminal act.

So, for example:
Charge 1 against Nicholas II: "Murder"
Evidence: beginning in 1881, more than 30 pogroms were instigated in ukraine, escalating and leading up to the kiev pogrom, the warsaw xmas pogrom, the 1891-92 expulsion of jews from moscow and peaked by the spectacularly murderous events in kishinev in 1903 (+45 dead, hundreds wounded) and odessa in 1905 (+300 dead/thousands injured).
Now, it must be demonstrated that Nicholas a)KNEW in advance about the pogroms. b) consented, approved or by LACK of action otherwise abetted the pogroms, and c)actually intended the harm and murder of the Jews so affected.

Carry on...
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: rskkiya on November 30, 2004, 10:37:34 AM
Thanks FA...

  I will not be participating in this trial discussion
because any trial presupposes the possible innocence of the accused...and it also suggests that one could possibly rule as an Autocrat innocently. We all realize that the idea of this trial was partially an attempt to point out to "any peasants" who "might still have some shreds of loyalty to the Tsar" just what he had done...(Lenin said this, not me) and to try to legitimize the rights of the Bolshevics in the west.
  Had I been there at that time I would have enjoyed such a trial --- but then again I'm just [glb]pure evil![/glb] ;D ;D ;D

LOL
red rskkiya

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on November 30, 2004, 12:11:57 PM
Since the Jewish people, or so I've been lead to believe,  were not protected against progroms during the reign of Nicholas II and because the Jewish people have collected a huge amount of data to prove to the world that they have suffered under most monarchs, dictators, and other govt.,  I suspect all the mentioned  proof -- voiced above by Admin. Forum -- against Nicholas II has been discovered and a great wealth of written material is available for all of us to see.


That said,  I can not assume Nicholas II gave any direct orders for one or all progroms.  Can anyone show us  one example that Nicholas II did in fact give such an order, AND,  if Nicholas II did give such an order, please, explain why that order was given?

AGRBear

PS  This is a subject which emotions can run very  very high, so, I'm not sure what is going to follow my question, however, I hope we can just deal with the facts and please give your sources.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on November 30, 2004, 12:15:23 PM
For the record
I was NOT actually offering up the Pogroms as specific charges. I was just using them, since already mentioned, just as an EXAMPLE of how this discussion should proceed, and using them to demonstrate the criminal law process.
FA
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on November 30, 2004, 12:22:19 PM
Another question to ask is, can Nicholas be held accountable for any of the action taken by Alexander III in the pograms against the Jewish people. If not, then would his alleged crimes against the Russian people start in 1894? If he is not accountable for his father's actions, then can Alexei be held accountable for Nicholas's.

If Alexei isn't accountable, why wouldn't he survive? Again, what do you do with the heir to the throne? Kill him? Exile him?

What do you do with Alix?

Louise

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on November 30, 2004, 12:29:41 PM
Quote
For the record
I was NOT actually offering up the Pogroms as specific charges. I was just using them, since already mentioned, just as an EXAMPLE of how this discussion should proceed, and using them to demonstrate the criminal law process.
FA


This is a charge, the progroms,  often given against Nicholas II so let's talk about it.  

And, let's talk about:  Is a person can be guilty of the "crimes of his father's"?

Is Nicholas II guilty of "murder" because of the events of Bloody Sundy?

A lot is on our plate.

So,  let's see what everyone thinks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on November 30, 2004, 02:29:58 PM
Legally speaking, one can not be held accountable for the actions of any other person unless it can be demonstrated that the accused had prior knowlege of the criminal act before it occured, intended the criminal act by the other person should occur, and took some step to aid and abet the crime (or intentional failure to act to prevent the crime).

So, legally speaking, Nicholas II can't be found guilty of any act of Alexander III, unless he knew about the criminal act, intended the criminal result occur and aided and abetted the crime.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 30, 2004, 02:39:14 PM
Factually speaking, I don't believe he knew prior of the pogroms, but he did approve of it according to FOTR.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on November 30, 2004, 02:54:02 PM
So legally speaking, Alexei can't be help accountable for his father's reign.

Louise



Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on November 30, 2004, 03:13:41 PM
Not under the principles of US law.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Silja on November 30, 2004, 04:44:48 PM
Not under the principles of EU law either  8).

By the way, in a German review article about Solshenitzyn's book about Russians and Jews "Two Hundred Years Together" (don't know the correct English title) the reviewer actually writes that for decades it has been known that it was NOT the Russian Government that ordered, organized or carried out the pogroms of 1881-1884, 1903-1906, 1919-1921 (note the last date!).

The reviewer however does NOT exonerate the Russian Government AT ALL  from its guild regarding the antisemitic legislation in Russia, and he actually criticizes Solshenitzyn's book as antisemitic because it sets out to blame the Jews for Russia's suffering.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on November 30, 2004, 06:17:31 PM
i've got an idea:

let's "mock trial" this. let's choose a crime or a series of events which could be crimes, under russian law of the time (or moral/ethical law)--- the idea is to choose a code and stick to it and NOT use post-1945 law, (either international, US, EU or other; law of the time with timely social context considered) to examine this:  a prosecution team, a defense team. do our homework, write up a proper brief or two with cogent arguments and slug it out with everyone having the annotated briefs to refer to, instead of relying on what we might remember or feel.

possible events/crimes the lena goldfields massacres, alleged mismanagement of the economy, alleged corruption in government issues (financial), alleged corruption in gov't (social), alleged mismanagement of economic development (abandoning workers to the hands of unprincipled 'capitalists') alleged social abuses (i.e. abuse of workers in slums, alleged abuses invovling the violent suppression of the labor movement, alleged abuse of miltiary authority in the army/navy toward the troops, the sending of ill-equiped troops to WWI, alleged abuses involved with the creation of the trans-siberian railway.

let's choose a couple, make real teams, write real briefs and then slug it out for what it is worth.  

now that term is over, the academics of us might have more time to do this, (i.e. research, writing) and as the holidays approach, we'll all really need an outlet away from the happy, gathering families. ::)

how about it?  

i brought the pogroms up because it was the first thing, top of my head, so to speak.  if it hadn't been so late when i wrote and my books weren't in storage, i might have pulled another. the lena goldfields is another one that i remembered as i was falling asleep, as it was the event that brought kerensky to the national limelight. also it isn't as emotional as the pogroms, altho' as i said there are reams of testimonies and research on them.

[for sentimental reasons, i hesitate to apply current international human rights standards to NII, because he was the first (that i can remember) to avail himself of modern international law: he went to the hague for mediation in the dogger bank incident. seems mean to then go back and use the hague process to posthumously proceed against him. :P ]
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on November 30, 2004, 07:15:42 PM
I believe that you should only use the Laws which prevailed as at 1917. Which is why I asked originally, which jurisdictiion needs to be applied to investigate any 'criminal activity' for a Russian Head of State?

The US has no standing, the Permanent Court of International Justice (World Court), nor the League of Nations under which that judicial body was formed, did not come onto the world stage until after WWI.

Hypothetically, it is not correct to use Laws which prevailed after 1945 because Nikolai was not in any position to defend himself should the need arise.

Perhaps a better starting point would be to bring back Kerensky as the chief prosecutor. After all Kerensky did arrest and detain Nikolai and his consort in the Alexander Palace. Due to lack of evidence, they were never brought before the Enquiry Commission (unlike the high ranking members of Nikolai's administration).

The first charge for the Defense would have to be unlawful detention of the entire I.F.

It must be remembered that they were detained without any specific charges held against each member.

One must try to first examine which laws could Kerensky apply to enforce detention of the whole family?  

The Imperial Government was no more, and therefore those Laws became defunct. While the newly formed Provisional Government had no time to legislate suitable laws to cover this situation at the time of arrest.



Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on November 30, 2004, 09:36:23 PM
did kerensky leave behind any of his ideas for this process/trial?

as minister of justice he would have had to create the code for the PG; any clues left behind?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on November 30, 2004, 10:38:10 PM
There is a seven volume compilation called Padeniye Tsarskogo Rejima which contains all the extracts of the investigation before the Commission before it was disbanded for want of jurisdiction.

This collection is available at the Hoover Institute.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 01, 2004, 03:31:07 AM
well, that makes sense as hoover / stanford is where kerensky ended up in the end. however, stanford, while dear to my heart becasue of its californian-ness, is very far from where i have ended up now, sydney.  and even if i was back in the land of my birth, seven volumes is a bit much to go through for this list. do we have any clues as to which law code kerensky was going to use, why he chose that code and perhaps some short versions of guides as to on which crimes he was concentrating?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 01, 2004, 03:34:04 AM
oh, and one other thing:

no matter how guilty NII and AF could be proven, neither alexei n. nor any of the girls could be guilty, hence they should not even have been held.  in my mind,their only guilt was association with their parents.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Sergio on December 01, 2004, 03:43:05 PM
In the "Dictator of the month" website, we can see this score card used for each dictator:
Quote
Score Card Explanations

Charisma/ Popularity with the Population
1. Very unpopular- widely hated
2. Unpopular
3. Population ambivalent/ indifferent
4. Popular
5. Zealous following- demagogue status

Danger Rating (Foreign policy)
1. Started no wars- not overtly hostile to other nations and posing little risk of expansion
2. Participated in small wars- hostile to other countries but no risk of starting major world war
3. Participated in numerous small wars- but little potential to start world war
4. Caused numerous wars with tens of thousands of casualties- potential to start major war
5. Caused major war with millions of casualties

Oppression Rating (Internal policy)
1. Relatively benevolent
2. Oppressive
3. Extremely oppressive, but causing limited exterminations to own population
4. Totalitarian- caused extermination of parts of population
5. Absolute Totalitarian causing major holocaust to own population

Number of Domestic victims
1. Less than 1000
2. More that 1000
3. More than 10000
4. More than 100000
5. More than 1000000

Longevity
1. Died/ killed in first 2 years of power
2. 2-5 years in power
3. 5-10 years in power
4. 10-15 years in power
5. More than 15 years in power

Economics
1. Caused major depression or irreparable damage to economy
2. Known for poor and destructive economic policies
3. Stable economic policies
4. Positive economic impact
5. Caused economic miracle or huge turn-around to own economy

Notariety/ Infamy
1. Unknown outside of own country
2. Little known outside of own country
3. Well-known outside of own country
4. Widely known world-wide
5. Household name

Statesman Factor
1. Terrible statesman
2. Poor statesman
3. Average statesman
4. Good statesman
5. World class statesman

Extremism
1. Very mild political dispensations
2. Not strongly tending towards extremism but not mild
3. Solidly entrenched policy
4. Strongly leaning towards radicalism
5. Absolute extremist/ radical

Progressiveness
1. Destructive and regressive policies
2. Typically regressive but not destructive
3. Somewhat progressive
4. Very progressive, instituted many positive changes
5. Extremely progressive ideas, extended widespread reforms


Nicholas II has the following evaluation:

Charisma/ Popularity: 1.5
Danger Rating (Foreign Policy): 2.5
Oppression Rating: 3.5
Number of Domestic Victims: 1.88
Longevity: 5
Economics: 2.5
Notoriety/ Infamy: 3.25
Statesman Factor: 2.5
Extremism: 1.5
Progressiveness: 2.38

Total Score (50 max): 26.5


I think this will help the discussion! Each one can also made the evaluation of Nicholas using the same score card!

From: http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Romanov/Feb2003RomanovEN.htm
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 01, 2004, 07:46:21 PM
Thanks Sergio,

According to this assessment Nikolai was a moderate compared to Stalin who rated the highest score so far.

This probably a good starting point. Let the votes begin!
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on December 01, 2004, 09:33:00 PM
Thanks Sergio for that neat site and the check list. I love lists BTW so that is cool.

Unfortunately for me and maybe fortunate for some, I have my finals coming and a week of prep time in class for the exam, so my time will be limited on this fine thread.

That said, and after reading the terrific contribution by both Belochka and Pushkina, I can't wait to see how this thread unravels. With the comments from Pushkina I think we can or at least I can say with certainity that Alexei would be allowed to survive no matter if he was heir or not. He still belongs to the "cute kids" category that 99.9% of people agree should not be killed.

So that still lives the question of what to do with Alexandra.

Is she tried along with her husband for being a severe reactionary who didn't want change for her country. Should she be tried for being a pain in the butt nagging wife, who hounded her husband, and then, trying to assist him, made more than a couple of bad administration foul-ups?

Oh and BTW, I would be one of the people that would love to defend Nicholas and if she is brought to court, Alexandra.

Louise

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Dasha on December 01, 2004, 10:46:47 PM
I would have to say that defending them would be a noble thing to have done.  Nikolai believed wholeheartedly that his way of ruling is correct, because that's what wsa taught to him in his childhood, and that's all he saw as an example from his father.  One cannot be punished for his/her beliefs, or convictions.  I admire him for sticking to what he believed, because it takes real courage to do so.

As for Alexandra, she was being a supportive wife, and though not a good co-regent, she tried her best with the information she had.  She couldn't go and alter the government, and she knew that no matter what, her husband wouldn't do it either.  She did what any person who supports his/her spouse would do, and that is just that...support him.  Does she deserve to die for that?  No.  Once again, she deserves respect.

The children, in my opinion, did not at all deserve to be slaughtered.  They had no participation in the government, and if being children of a ruler all of a sudden became a crime, then the world has a long way to go.  No child should be punished for what his/her parents did.  It's not humane or just for that matter.

What should have been done?  An exile with no possibility to return.  Not even for future generations, if the Communists were so paranoid.  It would have spared lives and given the rebels what they wanted.  

Of course I'm speaking in terms of an ideal situation.  I understand that the world is and never has been kind to ex-Emperors.  A good ex-Empeor is a dead one, and that is what the revolutionaries believed.  They applied that to the whole family, and that's what is not right.  This is what I think is the real crime here.

Dasha

P.S.  I hope I made some sort of sense here.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 02, 2004, 12:19:19 AM
Yes Dasha,

It should be the murderers of the Imperial Family who should be put on trial and not the Emperor of Russia. The Emperor does not have the blood of Russia on his hands.  
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 02, 2004, 04:26:06 AM
ah, but belochka, we haven't tried him so we don't know exactly which or whose blood is/was on his hands!

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 02, 2004, 09:13:55 AM
I have only just caught up with this theme.  I would be quite happy to prosecute Nicholas and probably Alexandra, although I would need to research the evidence in her case.

I am going to speak to a professor at London University who is an expert in Russian law and see how we might, under the laws that existed at the time progress this - of course he might not want to participate.

Although I wouldn't charge the Tsar with 'war crimes', I think it would be a general charge of 'crimes against humanity'.  Of course he didn't personally kill anyone as far as I know, but as the leader he knew of the Jewish pogroms etc.  He sanctioned the drastic and ruthless punishment meted out after the 1905 revolution.

Whether he believed what he was doing was 'right' is immaterial.  If what he was doing was illegal then he should stand trial.  I suppose someone could put some individual names to the deaths, but it is the totality that counts not individual cases.

Any case that is my view

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on December 02, 2004, 09:20:22 AM
Quote
Although I wouldn't charge the Tsar with 'war crimes', I think it would be a general charge of 'crimes against humanity'.  Of course he didn't personally kill anyone as far as I know, but as the leader he knew of the Jewish pogroms etc.  He sanctioned the drastic and ruthless punishment meted out after the 1905 revolution.

Whether he believed what he was doing was 'right' is immaterial.  If what he was doing was illegal then he should stand trial.  I suppose someone could put some individual names to the deaths, but it is the totality that counts not individual cases.


I haven't been posting much here because I and Richard's case is hard to defend. But I still think he should have been trialed and possibly executed.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Nathan_Davis on December 02, 2004, 02:04:31 PM
An exercise in futility, it seems to me, since the Tsar was executed eighty-six years ago last July. Along with his wife, family, doctor, and retainers. So lets have a trial anyway. Suppose we find him innocent? I'm sure he and all his unborn descendants will be positively thrilled with the verdict. And if he is guilty, do we dig him up and shoot him again? Are there plans afoot for reparations to be paid to the descendants of his "victims"? Who pays? What about trying the Bolsheviks in absentia for murdering the children? And the alleged crimes of Lenin, Stalin, and others?

"Come on, boys, let's hang 'em all" - from an episode of Gunsmoke

Cordially,

Nathan
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 02, 2004, 02:11:27 PM
Nathan,
Nobody said the discussion was for real or of genuine historical importance. Lighten up, please, some people think the topic is of intellectual interest.  While I personally don't care to engage in the debate beyond keeping it "legally honest", I think it IS of sufficient interest to many readers, as evidenced by the amount of discussion already.

Like I've always said about TV shows (since you started the analogy): If you don't like the program, change the channel.
(I preferred Bonanza to Gunsmoke myself... :D
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Nathan_Davis on December 02, 2004, 03:05:55 PM
My apologies to all. You're right of course, my sarcasm was too heavy handed.  

"Couple of you men carry him up to Doc's!" - also from Gunsmoke

Regards,

Nathan
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on December 02, 2004, 03:19:34 PM
At the risk of causing grave offence, for which I apologise in advance, aren't certain people planning to indict Saddam Hussein for assorted crimes against humanity, including "his own" people, in "his own" country?

If an absolute ruler such as Saddam can be charged surely Nicholas could have been too, whatever the laws of his country said.

In fact we are talking here about "Revolutionary Justice" and didn't Lenin say he'd kill "the whole prayer book" ie the entire Romanov dynasty.  Whatever else you say about Lenin it has to be admitted that he took personal revenge (for the execution of his brother) into a whole new plane.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 02, 2004, 03:22:51 PM
Quote
I have only just caught up with this theme.  I would be quite happy to prosecute Nicholas and probably Alexandra, although I would need to research the evidence in her case.

I am going to speak to a professor at London University who is an expert in Russian law and see how we might, under the laws that existed at the time progress this - of course he might not want to participate.


that's great.  maybe then we could at least fix on a code...or list of possible crimes.

Quote
Although I wouldn't charge the Tsar with 'war crimes', I think it would be a general charge of 'crimes against humanity'.  Of course he didn't personally kill anyone as far as I know, but as the leader he knew of the Jewish pogroms etc.  He sanctioned the drastic and ruthless punishment meted out after the 1905 revolution.

Whether he believed what he was doing was 'right' is immaterial.  If what he was doing was illegal then he should stand trial.  I suppose someone could put some individual names to the deaths, but it is the totality that counts not individual cases.

Richard


'war crimes'  and 'crimes against humanity" are modern charges based on modern concepts, at least post-1945.  otherwise, i'd lead the charge with both of them.  as there is no retrospecificity (?sp) here, i don't think we can use them.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: BobAtchison on December 02, 2004, 06:20:38 PM
When the Bolsheviks were planning for the trial of Nicholas II they said that the Tsar could not be legally held accountable for anything prior to 1905 when he was an autocrat.  They planned to try him for illegally suspending the Duma and changing the election rules in order to pack a new one with members more favorable to the Tsar's Government.

The investigators could not come up with enough to 'get' Nicholas.  They wanted and expected to find spectacular crimes that would sway world opinion during a public trial.  Lenin was mad about it.  This was one reason they didn't do a trial.

Bob
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 02, 2004, 06:45:28 PM
Quote
When the Bolsheviks were planning for the trial of Nicholas II they said that the Tsar could not be legally held accountable for anything prior to 1905 when he was an autocrat.  They planned to try him for illegally suspending the Duma and changing the election rules in order to pack a new one with members more favorable to the Tsar's Government.

The investigators could not come up with enough to 'get' Nicholas.  They wanted and expected to find spectacular crimes that would sway world opinion during a public trial.  Lenin was mad about it.  This was one reason they didn't do a trial.

Bob



finally!  a concrete path to follow...

interesting that the bolshies "accepted" the legality of autocracy enough not to try him publically with it.

so, to follow the bolshies legal logic, events/alleged crimes after the granting of the Duma, august 1905, should be examined at least for aspects of murder, rape, theft, and i would think conspiracy, because of course NII would not have committed any such acts himself but only as the head of a conspiracy or, NII, having knowledge that the act would defintiely occur, did nothing to stop it.

the lena goldfields massacre (4 april 1912) then should definitely be one of our events considered for an alleged crime.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 02, 2004, 07:07:51 PM
Quote
An exercise in futility, it seems to me, since the Tsar was executed eighty-six years ago last July. Nathan


one version of a translation of ecclesiastes 1:2 is "utter futility!---said koheleth--- utter futility! all is futility!"  so ultimately everything in life, from breakfast and making your bed, washing the dishes, marriage, babies, (my favorite) taxes, it is all to nought.

with that out of the way, it remains to choose your futility. to me, re-examining historical records is always appropriate; you never know what you might learn.

can/will it benefit NII and the IF?  no.  
can/will it benefit us? yes.

Quote
What about trying the Bolsheviks in absentia for murdering the children? And the alleged crimes of Lenin, Stalin, and others?


if this were a board devoted to all russian XX century history, i'd be right there for that mock trial too.  and, if i remember correctly, there are threads here on which some have tried to do exactly that.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on December 02, 2004, 09:57:49 PM
Quote
'war crimes'  and 'crimes against humanity" are modern charges based on modern concepts, at least post-1945.


They may be modern concepts but it doesn't mean they haven't happened throughout history.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 02, 2004, 11:11:14 PM
Here are a few definitions extracted from:

Control Council Law No. 10, Punishment of Persons Guilty of War Crimes, Crimes Against Peace and Against Humanity, December 20, 1945, 3 Official Gazette Control Council for Germany 50-55 (1946).


a) Crimes against Peace. Initiation of invasions of other countries and wars of aggression in violation of international laws and treaties, including but not limited to planning, preparation, initiation or waging a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing.

b) War Crimes. Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war, including but not limited to, murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of civilian population from occupied territory, murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

c) Crimes against Humanity. Atrocities and offences, including but not limited to murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, rape, or other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds whether or not in violation of the domestic laws of the country where perpetrated.

All three sections (a) (b) and (c) are recognized as a crime. These were formulated in London, in August 1945, to establish a uniform legal basis in Germany for the prosecution of offenders, not dealt with by the International Military Tribunal.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 03, 2004, 03:06:36 AM
I thought we were concerned with whether Nicholas committed any crime not whether the revoltionaries murdered the Imperial Family - of that there is no doubt.  It was regicide as there was no judicial process.

The last post is excellent and it clearly sets out what is a crime against humanity.

'Crimes against Humanity. Atrocities and offences, including but not limited to murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, rape, or other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds whether or not in violation of the domestic laws of the country where perpetrated. '

Who would wish to suggest that in Nicholas' name the following were not committed -

Murder - repression after the 1905 Revolution, that Nicholas troops provoked by the 'murders' they committed on Bloody Sunday.

Extermination - the pogroms against the Jews

Deportation - or didn't Siberian exile exist and others sent further afield

Imprisonment - the prisons were over flowing with people who stood up for their rights and had committed no crime

Torture - or didn't the Okhrana do this?

Rape - I'll let him off that one.

And some wish to justify it on his belief in 'the divine right of kings' autocracy.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Olga on December 03, 2004, 03:25:26 AM
Quote
Who would wish to suggest that in Nicholas' name the following were not committed -

Murder - repression after the 1905 Revolution, that Nicholas troops provoked by the 'murders' they committed on Bloody Sunday.

Extermination - the pogroms against the Jews

Deportation - or didn't Siberian exile exist and others sent further afield

Imprisonment - the prisons were over flowing with people who stood up for their rights and had committed no crime

Torture - or didn't the Okhrana do this?

Rape - I'll let him off that one.

And some wish to justify it on his belief in 'the divine right of kings' autocracy.


Richard has succeeded in saying what I've been trying to say.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on December 03, 2004, 06:50:02 AM
Thank you Richard, for the specific charges against Nicholas. That was the point I was trying to make all along. Not just a trial because Nicholas commited crimes against the Russian people; so therefore he should have had a trial, so therefore  he should be shot, just because some think he deserved it. Comments like that leave me thinking of the "trial" the Ceauescu's had in 1989. (Yes he and his wife commited crimes against the Romania people, and yes they should have had a proper trail, not a bullet in the head at the end of the day)

I am in no way justifing his actions during his reign because of the "Divine Right of Kings".  Whether the Divine Right of Kings can be used in a trial, remains to be seen ;)

Belchoka, thank you for posting the articles regarding war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Louise
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 03, 2004, 09:07:55 AM
Louise,

I quite agree Nicholas should have been put on trial and allowed the opportunity to defend themselves, not as a show trial, but as a trial that viewed the evidence in detail and made its decisions accroding to the evidence alone and not some political imperative.

The murder of the Imperial Family cannot be justified whether Lenin and Co. authorised it, tacitly or otherwise.  It was murder or rather regicide.

It is easy to judge the outcome of a trial given the precise benefit of hindsight.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: BobAtchison on December 03, 2004, 10:03:52 AM
Richard Pipes has written an excellent chapter on the murder of the Imperial Family in his book on the Russian Revolution in which he discusses the reasons for it.  This might make an excellent new addition to the palace site.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on December 03, 2004, 10:26:23 AM
Bob, that would be excellent to add to the information we already have on the Alexander Palace and all that it pertains to the Romanovs.

I'm about to study European history from 1500 till now, and the prof loves to discuss Imperial Europe. This would be of great benefit to my studies and I am sure to everyone here.

Richard, I agree it was regicide

Louise
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on December 03, 2004, 11:31:05 AM
Quote
When the Bolsheviks were planning for the trial of Nicholas II they said that the Tsar could not be legally held accountable for anything prior to 1905 when he was an autocrat.  They planned to try him for illegally suspending the Duma and changing the election rules in order to pack a new one with members more favorable to the Tsar's Government.

The investigators could not come up with enough to 'get' Nicholas.  They wanted and expected to find spectacular crimes that would sway world opinion during a public trial.  Lenin was mad about it.  This was one reason they didn't do a trial.

Bob



Does the mean the events of Bloody Sunday in 1905 were not suggested and falls outside of the time line?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 03, 2004, 04:53:21 PM
i don't think we can use the crimes against humanity statutes---as much as i love them and have worked with them---as they are post-1945/UN concepts and statutes and as such, one cannot fairly apply them retrospectively to the 1894-1917 period. (one has to have notice that one is committing an actionable offense.)

yes, there may have been such crimes committed throughout history but it was only recently that one could be prosecuted for them.

we can agree that they might be crimes against humanity because our sensibilities have been shaped in the postwar period, but it wouldn't be fair to NII, not that what happened to him was fair.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Aliard on December 03, 2004, 09:03:24 PM
Regardless of Nicholas' guilt as a ruler, his entire family did not deserve to die with him. Anyone who thinks the children got what they deserved because of their fathers actions isn't thinking straight to say the least.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 04, 2004, 12:21:32 AM
In this cyber Court, we must first establish who is to be brought before the panel, and investigate whether there is cause to bring the person(s) to face any charges. What form will the judgement take - it should only be guilty or not guilty.

My earlier points were that under Imperial Russian Laws, there was no jurisdiction to deal with any perceived criminal activity of autocratic rulers. The simplest option for a member of the public was regicide in the form of assassination.

Pushkina brings up an excellent point: there may have been such crimes committed throughout history but it was only recently that one could be prosecuted for them Something worth consideration, after all we are looking at a twenty nine year gap here. However the Statute of Limitations would not apply in this case, regardless if the person was a Head of State.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 04, 2004, 07:49:25 AM
Quote
In this cyber Court, we must first establish who is to be brought before the panel, and investigate whether there is cause to bring the person(s) to face any charges. What form will the judgement take - it should only be guilty or not guilty.


to my mind, there has never been any question of who would be brought to the bar: NII and AF only. the children were innocent bystanders.  NII obviously because of his position as tsar and head of government; AF because of her position as NII's agent.  a finding re: this agency would/could also establish precedent to use in the case of examing/trying other members of the IF (or ministers), who had also acted as NII's agents.

Quote
My earlier points were that under Imperial Russian Laws, there was no jurisdiction to deal with any perceived criminal activity of autocratic rulers. The simplest option for a member of the public was regicide in the form of assassination.


which, again to my mind, it would  be helpful to see what legal code kerensky had prepared to use. i'd like to see how he intended to get around autocratic non-culpability: he had to use some sort of law in force at the time of events committed, even as he had to negotiate non-culpability.

the fast way, the 'cheap and nasty' way to do this is to declare 'revolutionary justice' then one could do what one liked, as did the bolshies, and the french national assembly, in the case of LXVI.  but look what happened to them!

Quote
Pushkina brings up an excellent point: there may have been such crimes committed throughout history but it was only recently that one could be prosecuted for them Something worth consideration, after all we are looking at a twenty nine year gap here. However the Statute of Limitations would not apply in this case, regardless if the person was a Head of State.


i think that in cases of loss of life, limitations don't run out.  but what was the 29 year gap?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 04, 2004, 09:53:42 AM
Hi,
Just a few legal points here. First, It is pointless to apply any pre-1918 law in this case. The Imperial Family was, under existing law, fully immune from criminal prosecution for any act unless so ordered by the Tsar, and that continued after 1905. The Kerensky government never enacted any legislation to actually countermand that. I suggest, for an even playing field, and since this is a "modern" intellectual exercise, we use the Canadian "Crimes Against Humanity Act", which is the current standard in International Law.
Second. There is NO statute of Limitations for Murder or Crimes Against Humanity, and for the sake of the discussion here, I suggest we waive the defense of Statute of Limitations for any other criminal offenses you might consider. (it just makes the discussion more interesting)
to get you started:
"crrime against humanity" means murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution or any other inhumane act or omission that is committed against any civilian population or any identifiable group and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, constitutes a crime against humanity according to customary international law or conventional international law or by virtue of its being criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations, whether or not it constitutes a contravention of the law in force at the time and in the place of its commission.

more here: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-45.9/41179.html#rid-41233
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 04, 2004, 06:36:39 PM
Quote
Richard Pipes has written an excellent chapter on the murder of the Imperial Family in his book on the Russian Revolution in which he discusses the reasons for it.  This might make an excellent new addition to the palace site.


which of the pipes books?  i've got "a concise history of the r. rev." but not the larger "the r. rev." or "russia under the bolshie regime." in the concise history, there isn't much on NII. so is it in the russian revolution?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 04, 2004, 09:45:31 PM
Quote
Hi,
Just a few legal points here. First, It is pointless to apply any pre-1918 law in this case. The Imperial Family was, under existing law, fully immune from criminal prosecution for any act unless so ordered by the Tsar, and that continued after 1905. The Kerensky government never enacted any legislation to actually countermand that. I suggest, for an even playing field, and since this is a "modern" intellectual exercise, we use the Canadian "Crimes Against Humanity Act", which is the current standard in International Law.
Second. There is NO statute of Limitations for Murder or Crimes Against Humanity,


Thanks FA for confirming what I stated previously.

I will be happy to use the Canadian Legislation.

So what is the next step?


Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 04, 2004, 10:29:04 PM
we have to identify events which have elements which could fall under the code.

we need teams: at least a prosecution and defense. but should a seperate team prepare the indictment(s)?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 04, 2004, 10:38:31 PM
Perhaps Rob would be kind enough to draw up the appropriate document? ::)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 04, 2004, 10:45:32 PM
I will draw up a prosecution document, however, YOU (meaning whoever wants to participate) must first decide on the exact charges and identify the evidence to support the charges you wish to prosecute.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 04, 2004, 10:58:12 PM
Thanks Rob.

I could only be part of the defense team. Who wishes to join this side?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 05, 2004, 02:43:18 AM
I would be quite happy to prosecute, if I have the time.  Which of you has all the evidence or parts of it?

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 05, 2004, 03:33:13 AM
i ask that as events to be considered against nicholas,two that we don't normally discuss: the 1907 russian agreement with britain which effectively caused the north of iran to be dominated by russian and  the russian government's direct miitary interference in the iranina constitution revolution in 1911, which lead to the final crushing of the revolution.

both of these events lead to many, many dead, injured, famine and the looting of persia (under the russian cossacks snet there by the tsar) and more that i will be happy to submit if i have a little time to get it together.

looting, pillaging, oppressing foreign populations should all be able to be considered.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 05, 2004, 11:20:45 AM
Pushkina
You are putting the cart before the horse.
The specific charges must first be laid. What crimes SPECIFICALLY do you believe are supported by the evidence you put out.
As I said before, those wishing to prosecute must first lay out the "indictment", that is the bill of charges, with the evidence to support them.
So please, no more evidence until you (plural meaning those wanting to prosecute) lay out the charges, then bring on the evidence. I will then create the bill of indictment, so the Defense team can respond directly.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 05, 2004, 02:43:54 PM
I need to free up some time to research dates etc from books.

This would make a good Tv programme, the trial of the Tsar - or maybe we could try his murderers first and then as part of their defence hear details of the Tsar's crime against humanity.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 05, 2004, 06:55:28 PM
Quote
Pushkina
You are putting the cart before the horse.
The specific charges must first be laid. What crimes SPECIFICALLY do you believe are supported by the evidence you put out.
As I said before, those wishing to prosecute must first lay out the "indictment", that is the bill of charges, with the evidence to support them.
So please, no more evidence until you (plural meaning those wanting to prosecute) lay out the charges, then bring on the evidence. I will then create the bill of indictment, so the Defense team can respond directly.


i have worked as a human rights and war crimes researcher since 1980, for a variety of NGOs, the wiesenthal center, in conjunction with the helsinki commission (OSCE). through the 80-90s, i worked with other NGOs gathering war crimes evidence to proferred against saddam hussein and drafting the documentation (briefs and draft indictments) to be submitted with the evidence.  i've worked collecting and detailing evidence of the rape camps and torture in bosnia. i was part of a team at the wiesenthal center to go back into german and rumanian archival documents to try and identify crimes and perpetrators at the trans-nistrian camps and draft the docs to be submitted to the rumanian prosecutors.  most recently, i was invited back by NGOs concerned with making sure that saddam's crimes committed during the iraq-iran war against iranian civilians are detailed and included in the indictment being prepared against him.

all this to explain that i was trained to go about this process differently: first discover and identify the events to question, break them down (take verbal evidence; research /locate archival evidence) develop all lines and ONLY THEN can one decide specific charges to level and persons to accuse.

therefore, that is why i suggested events; not as an obstructionist means ("cart before the horse"). the head of the prosecution team would/should make note and collect them to include as part of their research.  

however, as you are the FA, i suppose you are entitled to organise this adventure as you see fit. the way you propose makes this a much shorter and less profound exercise.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 05, 2004, 09:43:54 PM
Pushkina would you like to join the Defense team or do you prefer the opposing side?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 05, 2004, 10:12:59 PM
Well,
Clearly someone with obviously far more experience in this matter has put me in my place. SO, I will no longer participate nor offer my assistance.

Since Pushkina has demonstrated that SHE is obviously far more competant than I to keep some order to this, SHE is now in charge. Im out of this thread.
Bye.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 05, 2004, 10:14:06 PM
prosecution.  altho' it would be great to work with you B.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 05, 2004, 10:16:54 PM
Quote
Well,
Clearly someone with obviously far more experience in this matter has put me in my place. SO, I will no longer participate nor offer my assistance.

Since Pushkina has demonstrated that SHE is obviously far more competant than I to keep some order to this, SHE is now in charge. Im out of this thread.
Bye.



sorry if i was misunderstood.

i wasn't arguing competency, just style; i've/i'd never seen it done crime before events.  and when i was told that i was putting cart before horse, i was a bit taken aback, to say the least.

this is an intellectual exercise; no one's lives are at stake anymore.  sorry if i overstated.  i have been known to be pushy, hence the english part of pushkina.

again apologies.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 05, 2004, 10:22:15 PM
My problem is that my specialty was medical negligence law, not criminal law.

Thanks Pushkina for your kind offer to help me, but you must choose one side.

Rob please don't disappear we need your learned opinions. I will certainly require help in criminal matters.  ;)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 05, 2004, 10:29:53 PM
Belochka - I will join you on the defense. I am not an attorney, but I believe nonetheless that I may be able to help in defending Nicholas and Alexandra in this "cyber trial".
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 05, 2004, 10:42:55 PM
Thanks Lisa I accept your offer with pleasure.  ;D
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 06, 2004, 03:05:47 AM
as a contrarian, i'm definitely prosecution, B. i was just being wistful.  

or maybe since i seem to be overenthusiastic, maybe i should refrain.  
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 06, 2004, 03:28:29 AM
Pushkina please don't otherwise the case will not be able to proceed.

Would you like to start gathering the evidence? Perhaps others would like to participate in this task as well?

We also require nominations for a judge ... anyone interested in this position?

The person must be impartial and fair. Revolutionaries need not apply, your applications will be rejected. ;D
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 06, 2004, 09:39:27 AM
Hi,
Ok, I apologise too, it just hit me the wrong way. What I really meant was this:
Those who wish to prosecute should gather their evidence to decide what crime YOU personally want to pursue. Identify the crime and then the evidence. The reason I ask this is that otherwise, this thread will be bogged down with lots of events/evidence without any organization to it. IF I can have a list of crimes first, I can put the evidence into the proper catagory, does that make sense?
I certainly don't want anyone to be restricted in whatever you want to pursue. Also, both sides are free to ask for and receive assistance from me, I'm not going to be partial to either side (the lawyer in me can separate the two).
FA
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2004, 11:00:01 AM
All I have is 2 kopecks so I'll sit back and watch this unfold.  Should be interesting.

I still think Blood Sunday is a good choice and evidence for both sides is easily found.  And,  because, this is the event which the revolutionists use as their prime example against Nicholas II.

If you want to prove a case against both Nicholas II and Alexandra,  it'll have to be some event while Nicholas II was Commander- in- Chief.... on the front with his troops... At that time Alexandra held some power and made some poor decisions...

I agree with Admin. Forum.'s last remarks.  Can't open Case #One:  People Against ex-Emp. Nicholas II /Alexandra until you have the crime chosen, so,  suggestions are in order, or so I view it from here,  while sides are being taken.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 06, 2004, 08:57:13 PM
Thanks Rob!! ;D Can we promote you in some way?

The Defense team now waits to see whether there will be any charges to answer, what evidence there might be, and who is to be brought before the Court to face prosecution.

Lisa and I can draw up our list of witnesses and initiate our own investigations based on what the Prosecution presents us.

Hopefully everyone will feel free to present any material which they believe may help either the Defense or Prosecution sides as they see fit.

We await further instructions.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 07, 2004, 05:38:01 AM
Rob, glad you are staying with the theme.

Right strater for ten, needs a number of messages:

1. defendant:   Nicholas Romanov Tsar
2. date:            9 January 1905
3. venue:         The environs of the Winter Palace St       Petersburg
4. charge:        Murder and unlawful killing, grievous bodily harm (mulitple charges)

Dissatisfied with the constitution’s results, the working class of Russia followed the leadership of Father Georgii Gapon, an Orthodox priest and policeman, and marched to St. Petersburg to petition the tsar. Upon arrival in St. Petersburg on January 9, 1905, nervous troops saw the approaching crowd and fired upon them, killing at least 200 people. “Bloody Sunday” marked the start of the 1905 Revolution.
After “Bloody Sunday,” Russia was in turmoil. The massacre caused revolt throughout the nation. Worker strikes, agricultural struggles, terrorism, and army mutiny were among the problems now facing the tsar.

The feeling of horror with which eye-witnesses, Russian and English, speak of this massacre surpasses description. Even time will not erase these horrible scenes from the memories of those who saw them, just as the horrors of a shipwreck remain engraved forever in the memory of a rescued passenger.What Gapon said immediately after the massacre about "the viper's brood" of the whole dynasty was echoed all over Russia, and went as far as the valleys of Manchuria. The whole character of the movement was changed at once by this massacre. All illusions were dissipated. As the autocrat and his supporters had not shrunk from that wanton, fiendish, and cowardly slaughtering, it was evident that they would stop at no violence and no treachery. From that day the name of the Romanoff dynasty began to become odious among the working men in Russia. The illusion of a benevolent autocrat who was going to listen paternally to the demands of his subjects was gone forever.

We wished to convey to you the effects of your autocratic rule and to highlight inequalities in the country, our intention was peaceful protest.

That you as the Tsar and autocrat - with absolute and unrestricted powers and thus Commander of Chief of the Russian Army in whose names all things are done.  permitted such murder and injury to take place.

Our petition follows:




Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 07, 2004, 05:38:48 AM
Petition Prepared for Presentation to Nicholas II
on "Bloody Sunday" (January 9, 1905)
Sovereign!
We, workers and inhabitants of the city of St. Petersburg, members of various sosloviia (estates of the realm), our wives, children, and helpless old parents, have come to you, Sovereign, to seek justice and protection. We are impoverished and oppressed, we are burdened with work, and insulted. We are treated not like humans [but] like slaves who must suffer a bitter fate and keep silent. And we have suffered, but we only get pushed deeper and deeper into a gulf of misery, ignorance, and lack of rights. Despotism and arbitrariness are suffocating us, we are gasping for breath. Sovereign, we have no strength left. We have reached the limit of our patience. We have come to that terrible moment when it is better to die than to continue unbearable sufferings.
And so we left our work and declared to our employers that we will not return to work until they meet our demands. We do not ask much; we only want that without which life is hard labor and eternal suffering. Our first request was that our employers discuss our needs together with us. But they refused to do this; they denied us the right to speak about our needs, on the grounds that the law does not provide us with such a right. Also unlawful were our other requests: to reduce the working day to eight hours; for them to set wages together with us and by agreement with us; to examine our disputes with lower-level factory administrators; to increase the wages of unskilled workers and women to one ruble per day; to abolish overtime work; to provide medical care attentively and without insult; to build shops so that it is possible to work there and not face death from the awful drafts, rain and snow.
Our employers and the factory administrators considered all this to be illegal: every one of our requests was a crime, and our desire to improve our condition was slanderous insolence.
Sovereign, there are thousands of us here; outwardly we are human beings, but in reality neither we nor the Russian people as a whole are provided with any human rights, even the right to speak, to think, to assemble, to discuss our needs, or to take measure to improve our conditions. They have enslaved us and they did so under the protection of your officials, with their aid and with their cooperation. They imprison and send into exile any one of us who has the courage to speak on behalf of the interests of the working class and of the people. They punish us for a good heart and a responsive spirit as if for a crime. To pity a downtrodden and tormented person with no rights is to commit a grave crime. The entire working people and the peasants are subjected to the proizvol (arbitrariness) of a bureaucratic administration composed of embezzlers of public funds and thieves who not only have not concern at all for the interests of the Russian people but who harm those interests. The bureaucratic administration has reduced the country to complete destitution, drawn it into a shameful war, and brings Russia ever further towards ruin. We, the workers and the people, have no voice in the expenditure of the enormous sums that are collected from us. We do not even know where the money collected from the impoverished people goes. The people is deprived of any possibility of expressing its wishes and demands, or of participating in the establishment of taxes and in their expenditure. Workers are deprived of the possibility of organizing into unions to defend their interests. Sovereign! Does all this accord with the law of God, by Whose grace you reign? And is it possible to live under such laws? Would it not be better if we, the toiling people of all Russia, died? Let the capitalists--exploiters of the working class--and the bureaucrats--embezzlers of public funds and the pillagers of the Russian people--live and enjoy themselves.
Sovereign, this is what we face and this is the reason that we have gathered before the walls of your palace. Here we seek our last salvation. Do not refuse to come to the aid of your people; lead it out of the grave of poverty, ignorance, and lack of rights; grant it the opportunity to determine its own destiny, and deliver it from them the unbearable yoke of the bureaucrats. Tear down the wall that separates you from your people and let it rule the country together with you. You have been placed [on the throne] for the happiness of the people; the bureaucrats, however, snatch this happiness out of our hands, and it never reaches us; we get only grief and humiliation. Sovereign, examine our requests attentively and without any anger; they incline not to evil, but to the good, both for us and for you. Ours is not the voice of insolence but of the realization that we must get out of a situation that is unbearable for everyone. Russia is too big, her needs are to diverse and many, for her to be ruled only by bureaucrats. We need popular representation; it is necessary for the people to help itself and to administer itself. After all, only the people knows its real needs. Do not fend off its help, accept it, and order immediately, at once, that representatives of the Russian land from all classes, all estates of the realm be summoned, including representatives from the workers. Let the capitalist be there, and the worker, and the bureaucrat, and the priest, and the doctor and the teacher--let everyone, whoever they are, elect their representatives. Let everyone be free and equal in his voting rights, and to that end order that elections to the Constituent Assembly be conducted under universal, secret and equal suffrage.
This is our main request, everything is based on it; it is the main and only poultice for our painful wounds, without which those wounds must freely bleed and bring us to a quick death.
But no single measure can heal all our wounds. Other measures are necessary, and we, representing of all of Russia's toiling class, frankly and openly speak to you, Sovereign, as to a father, about them.
The following are necessary:
I. Measures against the ignorance of the Russian people
and against its lack of rights
1. Immediate freedom and return home for all those who have suffered for their political and religious convictions, for strike activity, and for peasant disorders.
2. Immediate proclamation of the freedom and inviolability of the person, of freedom of speech and of the press, of freedom of assembly, and of freedom of conscience in matters of religion.
3. Universal and compulsory public education at state expense.
4. Accountability of government ministers to the people and a guarantee of lawful administration.
5. Equality of all before the law without exception.
6. Separation of church and state
II. Measures against the poverty of the people
1. Abolition of indirect taxes and their replacement by a direct, progressive income tax.
2. Abolition of redemption payments, cheap credit, and the gradual transfer of land to the people.
3. Naval Ministry contracts should be filled in Russia, not abroad.
4. Termination of the war according to the will of the people.
III. Measures against the oppression of labor by capital
1. Abolition of the office of factory inspector.
2. Establishment in factories and plants of permanent commissions elected by the workers, which jointly with the administration are to investigate all complaints coming from individual workers. A worker cannot be fired except by a resolution of this commission.
3. Freedom for producer-consumer cooperatives and workers' trade unions--at once.
4. An eight-hour working day and regulation of overtime work.
5. Freedom for labor to struggle with capital--at once.
6. Wage regulation--at once.
7. Guaranteed participation of representatives of the working classes in drafting a law on state insurance for workers--at once.
These, sovereign, are our main needs, about which we have come to you; only when they are satisfied will the liberation of our Motherland from slavery and destitution be possible, only then can she flourish, only then can workers organize to defend their interests from insolent exploitation by capitalists and by the bureaucratic administration that plunders and suffocates the people. Give the order, swear to meet these needs, and you will make Russia both happy and glorious, and your name will be fixed in our hearts and the hearts of our posterity for all time--but if you do not give the order, if you do not respond to our prayer, then we shall die here, on this square, in front of your palace. We have nowhere else to go and no reason to. There are only two roads for us, one to freedom and happiness, the other to the grave. Let our lives be sacrificed for suffering Russia. We do not regret that sacrifice, we embrace it eagerly.
Georgii Gapon, priest
Ivan Vasimov, worker.
Translated by Daniel Field
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 07, 2004, 05:39:46 AM
Hope the above are sufficient to start off the process, more when I get a chnace

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2004, 11:17:21 AM
Great start!

So,  what do we need next?

The person in charge of Nicholas II's defense gives his ____ and/or opening statement?

Who's taken this position?

Afterwhich,  can some of us chime in as witnesses?  

I assume the defense's witnesses come afterwards/ the second phase???.

 Or,  is this going to be a running conversation?

 This might cause some confusion.   So let's set up a few rules by those who know what is needed.

Oh, and,  a judge,  who's taking that position.  Bob?

I assume all of us are on the jury panel.  Yes? No?  If not then who?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 07, 2004, 11:34:34 AM
Indictment 1 has been filed and posted separately.
The rules:
Prosecution must present and prove their case with evidence in the thread for each single charge of the indictment. During presentation of the case, Defense may object to specific evidence as
"Irrelevant": ie does not have direct bearing upon the charges (example character of the defendant "he loved his family", etc.)
"Hearsay": an out of court statement by a third party offered as true but unable to be corroborated. ie a letter saying "Nicholas told me that he wanted to kill the Jews".
Defense may also challenge the validity of evidence (this is not really "right" but we are dealing with historical documents and old testimony, so I will permit both sides to require proof of validity of evidence proffered.)
Prosecution will "rest its case" when done.
Defense has its turn, same rules apply.
Prosecution will have one turn to rebut Defense.
Defense will have one turn to rebut the Prosecution.

Sides may refer to evidence in other threads of the Indictment as it progresses rather than repeat it in full each time. HOWEVER, each thread will be strictly kept on topic of THAT charge and no "peanut gallery" comments allowed until both sides have rested. I WILL NOT TOLERATE CHATTER or "LARKING OFF" IN MY "COURTROOM". no warnings, it will just be removed. Clear?

Still working on the final judge or a jury...I lean to a jury...I will serve as procedural judge and my decisions on procedure and evidence will be final.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 07, 2004, 11:58:34 AM
I also suggest that only those with business on the matter post to the Charges topics - the jury and the attorneys. It will simplify matters.

Also, though its not normal court procedure, it might make the process more interesting if the jury can ask questions?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 07, 2004, 12:05:18 PM
Lisa, thanks for clearing up that only the "attorneys" for each side may post in the charges threads, I intended that but didn't say it outright.
No questions until AFTER both sides have rested. I will permit the jury (all users wanting to voice a vote ONE VOTE ONLY) to ask questions before voting on a verdict
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 07, 2004, 01:17:05 PM
I like the indictment but not being that bright can someone articulate who comprises the prosecution and defence teams. Who leads for both teams and what we (all of us - maybe Rob could lead expect in terms of evidence)
For instance do you want?:

1.  Individual accounts if they exist
2.  Evidence that Nicholas was an autocrat and thus vicariously liable for that which was done in his name.
3.  Evidence to support the 'peaceful' nature of the 9 January demonstration.
4.  Evidence of individual deaths or will rough numbers do (I don't think there are precise figures)
5.  The command structure of the militray units at the Winter Palace
6.  The Tsar's response once told.

I suppose my question is are we doing this by the 'book' which I believe we should or do we have latitude in the 'evidence' that is presented.

Finally 'no name calling' because this is likely to rake over some pretty sensitive issues.

I am quite happy to participate in anyway I can but like many of us on here have to fit it in during my working and family life.  My wife is already fed up with rasputin, putting the Tsar on trial could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 07, 2004, 01:33:09 PM
Richard,
I modified the Indictment post to assist and answer your questions.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 07, 2004, 02:05:58 PM
i too (and some others too) am working on my briefs but to do this well demands time so i beg the indulgence of the members.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Merrique on December 07, 2004, 05:58:37 PM
This is really going to be interesting.I'm looking forward to seeing how this cyber trial unfolds.
Eventhough the thought of being the judge in this trial does seem kinda cool,I don't have the legal knowledge for that sort of thing.So put me on the jury.I cannot wait to see the evidence presented by both sides.I think this will definately be a very good learning experience for everyone. :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Jane on December 07, 2004, 06:05:13 PM
Oh, this is very entertaining.  I am an attorney, and my practice area happens to include criminal law, so I may be able to offer assistance if it is needed as the trial approaches (just in a general advisory capacity; I have no wish to be on either team here--talk about a busman's holiday).

Re: judge v. jury?  I haven't yet taken a look at the Canadian statutes being applied to this exercise, but assuming that the jury system is a matter of right for the accused, has a jury already been selected?  Should the jury panel be chosen now?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 07, 2004, 06:47:38 PM
We should set a timeline so that everyone knows when arguments, etc, will take place. I am assuming this will get going some time in January?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 07, 2004, 08:03:07 PM
January is a good time to initiate proceedings. The holiday season will be behind us.

Jane,

Could Lisa and I (The Defense team) avail ourselves of your learned opinions? Should our communications be best done by PM?  
 
Rob,

What about placing an announcement on the primary topic page so that this trial can be formally announced to the world (no perception of a secret trial here), to enable wider audience participation?

Secondly, expressions of interest can be entertained from potential jurors.  

How should jury selection proceed? How many are to sit on the panel?  

Rather than undergoing jury selection, should we accept on the basis of first come first served?  Except using this approach, the jury will be stacked unfairly, to which the Defense will object.

At least the venue is not under dispute!
 
Congratulations on your new appointment!  
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 08, 2004, 02:52:30 AM
Rob, thanks for the information on the idictment might I ask do you wish to act as Judge, or Chief Prosecutor, or are you our guide 'clerk to the court' or whatever?

If not those of us who wish to be involved in the prosecution need to get our act together.  If Rob indicates as above and if he does not wish to prosecute we need to agree the team and then conduct the development of our case via e-mail to prevent giving the defence team an insight into what we will say and produce as evidence - or are we into pre trial disclosure here?

Prosecution will begin by:
1. Identifying each member of the Prosecution team (work this out yourselves privately) and who will serve as lead.
2. Identify first the "INTENT" of the Defendant that the crime occur. then
3. Identify MOTIVE for the Crime then
4. What acts the Defendant undertook to CAUSE the crime or identify WHY Defendant is directly responsible for the commission of the crime
5. What opportunity Defendant had to commit the crime.

Selecting a jury will be difficult so many people have very strong bias towards either the prosecution or the defence the Alexander Palace - maybe it is trial by a Judge only?

January is a brilliant time to start the proceedings.

SO BIG QUESTION WHO WANTS TO BE ON THE PROSECUTION TEAM?

Regards as ever

Richard

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 08, 2004, 09:33:07 AM
Richard,
I have no wish to serve either Prosecution nor Defense. I will serve as Judge with respect to the proceedings (though Jane, PLEASE feel free to drop me a line or speak up if I miss something...my specialty was Real Estate Law, though I clerked for a criminal Defense attorney (a FAMOUS one...) during Law School).

Rather than tie up the thread, I propose as follows:
I "appoint" Richard C. temporary lead Prosecutor. All wishing to participate in prosecution, please PRIVATELY contact Richard, and you work out amongst yourselves who will be official LEAD and the whole team. THEN announce in one posting who the team will be.  I "appoint" Lisa Davidson temporary lead for Defense, and Defense will do the same. Kindly conduct your preliminary work, both sides, outside the Public Forum and present ONE preliminary argument.

I believe Nicholas is entitled to a jury trial (tho his "peers" may be hard to find.. ;)

Given this excersise is for all interested, more than the genuine outcome?, I propose that at the final close of each Charge, I will write Jury instructions. All wishing to vote may do so, but ONLY post the word Guilty or Not Guilty, no discussion. UNLESS 12 readers contact me personally who HONESTLY can restrict themselves to the evidence presented and reach an unbiased conclusion...
Am open to suggestions on this.

Also, just a reminder that so far, there is only ONE charge in the indictment, and only against Nicholas II. It may be easier for both sides if people wish to present further charges now....
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Jane on December 08, 2004, 11:11:33 AM
Quote
Could Lisa and I (The Defense team) avail ourselves of your learned opinions? Should our communications be best done by PM? 


Absolutely, Belochka, feel free to send me a PM, and I will be happy to offer whatever assistance I can.  The offer is extended equally to the prosecution team.  I can assure both sides of complete neutrality and complete discretion.

I have been on both sides of the courtroom, as a defense attorney and as a prosecutor, so as I stated above, I'm neutral here.  Also, since I may be acting as a "friend to the court" during the trial, I am not going to be serving as a juror, as it would be inappropriate, especially since I may be serving as a sounding board for one or both sides.

As far as the jury is concerned, one possible suggestion is that perhaps a different thread could be created for those who wish to possibly serve as  jurors.  They must be willing to adhere to the Court's dictum to keep an open mind, etc.  Basically, they must submit a post indicating their interest.  Then the Court e.g. Rob) could randomly select 12 jurors (plus two alternates, since this is potentially a capital case, even though the defendant is being tried in abstentia) from that list.  I don't think, for purposes of this exercise, that we need burden the attorneys with voir dire, as you typically end up with a random selection anyway (the JoEllen Demetriuses of the world notwithstanding).

Also, we might curry a larger potential jury pool if the notice is posted prominently on the front page of the forum, as Belochka has suggested.

Depending on our attorneys' schedules, I do think there ought to be a deadline for filing the information/indictment/complaint (terminology varies amongst jurisdictions, so call it what you will), simply to streamline the proceedings and allow the defense adequate time to prepare to respond.  

Edited for those pesky misspellings


Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 08, 2004, 11:31:41 AM
OK,
As for the Jury, I will ask those who wish to serve as Jurors to PM me with their interest. For the sake of fairness, I think the Jurors should remain anonymous until the verdict.

As for the filing, due to the Holidays, I will expect the Prosecution initial proceedings posted on or before January 10, 2005 (Monday). A request for continuance for more time can be requested upon showing good cause.

After Jan 1. I think two calendar weeks after posting of each indictment for first proceedings? 2 calendar weeks for defense, etc.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 08, 2004, 10:12:53 PM
Judge Rob,

If one applies for a continuance, must this application be filed here directly or will a PM submission be more acceptable?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 08, 2004, 10:21:45 PM
Quote

Absolutely, Belochka, feel free to send me a PM, and I will be happy to offer whatever assistance I can.  

I don't think, for purposes of this exercise, that we need burden the attorneys with voir dire,

Depending on our attorneys' schedules, I do think there ought to be a deadline for filing the information/indictment/complaint (terminology varies amongst jurisdictions, so call it what you will), simply to streamline the proceedings and allow the defense adequate time to prepare to respond.  


Thanks Jane!

I believe that voire dire could become too personal for this sort of medium. Perhaps Judge Rob will be able to impanel the jury with fair minded citizens on our behalf? The only problem is that the Defense will not be able to exercise any peremptory challenges

Deadlines (with continuances) will be the best approach.

Should we start a new "official thread" when the Court is in session and leave this one open for general daily notices?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 08, 2004, 11:25:57 PM
I'd like to let everyone know that after Rob asked me to temporarily head up the defense, I wrote Belochka and asked her to take the first chair. We would both appreciate help from others with a legal or related background to help us out. Neither one of us want to let anyone down.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 09, 2004, 09:37:45 AM
I want to keep THIS thread for general comments and progress about the Trial as a whole. Continuance questions, procedural matters of a specific nature should be to me via PM. ALL discussion between Prosecution and Defense is to be via PM only.  I will post announcements here as needed.

I will impanel the jury, I have had some volunteers already but I need MORE!  I would rather not go into peremptory challenges or voir dire by either side. IF I suspect a problem I will contact each side privately. I don't want hurt feelings or personal attacks in the public. I hope you understand.

Belochka, there "official thread" for the first count has been opened already and the Indictment is there to review.

More importantly. WE STILL ONLY HAVE ONE COUNT in the indictment. I would like to put all the counts up as soon as possible rather than try them piecemeal. so PLEASE, even if you don't want to be ON the prosecution team per se you can file a charge here...What happened to all those "crimes against humanity" I kept seeing over and over on the other threads???
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 09, 2004, 12:39:35 PM
Rob,

Do we address you now as 'Your Honour' or 'My lord' - very British titles - as you would undoubtedly be a high court judge in this country maybe it should be 'My Lord.'

But that is an aside 'everyone knows you sre the judge' (old song).

The prosecution team, Pushkina, Elizabeth and others are working on other indictments and we will send them to you as soon as possible.  We might struggle to put everything together in time for the January deadline but will have several charges ready for the indictment.  So come you you guys and gals who have posted claims of human rights breaches by the IF let us have the facts!!

We are a small but dedicated team and would welcome anyone else who wished to support us to PM me directly we can then set up a network between those with an interest in prosecution.

For information I am taking the lead on the 1st Indictment that you have already posted.  I will also take a lead on the issue of the vicarious liability of teh Tsar as an autocrat.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 09, 2004, 12:51:46 PM
Richard
The January deadline is two fold. It is for ALL charges in the indictment AND for the First Statement of the Prosecution for Count 1.  You will have 2 calendar weeks after submitting each Count to present the first statment for THAT Count. Is that clear? does that seem fair?
and please. No "my lord"...LOL....I guess in the trial thread "your honor" is ok...
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 09, 2004, 07:55:46 PM
The Defense is calling for all interested parties who wish to submit any information which they believe will help to defend Nikolai.

We will be pleased if all submissions can be PM'd either to LisaD or myself.

It's not too late should anyone wish to act as consultants to the Defense team.

Any help will be appreciated,

Thanks,

The Team for the Defense  :D :D

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on December 09, 2004, 09:02:18 PM
Quick question...
Was there even a trial?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Louise on December 09, 2004, 09:21:06 PM
Quick Answer--No... :D.. Sorry, just joking with you.

No, there was no trial. The IF was shot without a trial on a decision some feel was made by Lenin, and others feel the decision was made by the Ural committe.

Maria, if you are interested in learning more about the Romanovs, I would suggest you start with reading Nicholas and Alexandra. It is a great book for beginners, and it will certainly give you a wonderful base for your education. Hope this helps

Louise

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 10, 2004, 03:19:36 AM
PROSECUTORS APPEAL FOR HELP

Guys and gals, there are now only Puskinha and myself in the prosecution team.  There is a lot of work to draw the indictments together and to provide the opening statements for each indictment.  

If this is going to be the worthwhile exercise and academically enlighteneing exerc ise I believe it to be, we urgently need more help.  So come on lots of you discuss the issues acros the Discussion Board - it is now time to provide the evidence.  Both of us are each presently working on a couple of indictments, but there is much, much more.  It is hard work, but go on give it a go.  Please PM me if you wish to participate.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: londo954 on December 10, 2004, 08:39:31 AM
This is a wonderful idea.....I would love to serve as joror...I believe as a Russian historian I can remain neutral ......but I think we have to remember hindsight is 20/20 ( the cardinal rule of historical research) Is the defendant to be tried based on what was known in 1905 or what we know today!!!
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 10, 2004, 09:08:03 AM
I really wish people would READ the threads. I specifically asked that prospective jurors remain anonymous and contact me PRIVATELY. Londo has now disqualified himself by publicly declaring a desire to serve as a juror...
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 11, 2004, 12:25:44 PM
Quote
More importantly. WE STILL ONLY HAVE ONE COUNT in the indictment. I would like to put all the counts up as soon as possible rather than try them piecemeal. so PLEASE, even if you don't want to be ON the prosecution team per se you can file a charge here...What happened to all those "crimes against humanity" I kept seeing over and over on the other threads???
Maybe you can make a post under The Russian Revolution topic about this trial in order to get some additional charges. It's possible that some people are not aware that this trial is going to be happening on this thread... So you can make a post there just to let them know that they can submit their charges to the prosecution here.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 12, 2004, 01:10:16 AM
The Centennial of Bloody Sunday will be 22 January 2005? Perhaps we can incorporate this into our trial timeline?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on December 13, 2004, 08:37:11 PM
i'm just bumping the thread up; we wouldn't want it to get lost.

as FA is re-organising, should the trial and its docs get its own thread?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 17, 2004, 12:09:20 PM
Just to say that for all who have PMd me to request jury duty, you are all on!
That said, I still need MORE volunteers. So, please PM me if you are interested, and PLEASE read this entire thread first.
Thanks
FA
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 17, 2004, 02:03:53 PM
Ok
People keep writing me not understanding what it entails to be a juror here, so I guess my earlier postings in this thread aren't clear.

You have to remain anonymous except to me until the "verdict".
You have to read the charges in each thread here, and the evidence presented by each side. It will be about two calendar weeks for each side to post, which should offer each juror sufficient time. anyone pressed for time should PM me before that period is up.

You must judge each charge ONLY on the evidence presented in that thread. You must really try to keep preconceived ideas out of your judgment.

You agree to participate in this excercise as a juror until all the charges have been sent to the jury for verdict (barring of course personal emergency, in which case, write me a PM).

OK? That should be enough. Let me know Jurors!!
FA
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 19, 2004, 01:23:31 PM
Barring some last minute help, it appears that both the defense and prosecution will have just two representatives each. I would like to point out that to work on the defense, one does not necessarily need to be an attorney. I would imagine - though I cannot speak for them - that the prosecution would also appreciate help with their case.

If interested in helping the defense of Nicholas, PM either Belochka or Lisa Davidson.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 19, 2004, 03:24:47 PM
Let me just add, that to participate in this process in any capacity one need not have any legal experience.  There are plenty of those already on board! So please feel free to PM and volunteer if you are at all interested. We will gladly help you out with the details.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Merrique on December 19, 2004, 06:21:12 PM
I was wondering since there is going to be a trial against Nicholas will there be one for Alexandra?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 19, 2004, 07:14:44 PM
No, at this point there is only one count in the indictment against Nicholas. No one has brought forward any more charges against him, so there are no plans at this time to try Alexandra.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Georgiy on December 19, 2004, 08:31:15 PM
Maybe she should be charged with him? Isn't that what Trotsky, Sverdlov and Co wanted?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 19, 2004, 08:41:51 PM
No one has brought any specific charges other than what we have listed. If you want other charges against other defendants, like Alexandra, please feel free to bring them.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 23, 2004, 09:35:15 PM
I would like to point out, however, that it has been difficult thus far to assemble teams to prosecute and defend Nicholas. While people are welcome to bring charges, I suppose, there would have to in all fairness be people willing to do the legal legwork plus serve on the jury. I would respectfully suggest, therefore, that we confine ourselves to Nicholas for the moment short of having all the people I mentioned materialize.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 23, 2004, 10:00:08 PM
Perhaps one of the problems we are facing here is that many are unable to visualize how this "Court" will function in cyberspace.

After this first case perhaps there will be more interest expressed by others to participate in this "Court", should there be any further matters pending.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 24, 2004, 09:12:41 AM
Let me flesh this out then, since there is still confusion.
Instead of an actual court-room, the specific charge threads will be the "cyber court room".  I will post the "public record documents" of each side, just as in the trial folder. Everyone can read them, and the jury members will read them as well.
I will then write jury instructions in the thread for the jurors, who will then PM me with their verdicts.
Should they wish discussion prior to the verdict, I will identify the jurors to each other to deliberate VIA PM or email ONLY.

It really shouldnt be a big burden to anyone wanting to particiapte on any level...
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Alice on December 29, 2004, 05:53:06 AM
Quote
Great idea Lisa for this thread.

I would love to hear what specific crimes against the Russian people that Nicholas would be accussed of.

What specific crimes? What crimes if any would you have Alexandra charged with?


As someone mentioned, Nicholas, as Autocrat of all Russias, could be considered responsible for the actions of his ministers, and also his army, which fired upon and killed many people on "Bloody Sunday" (just one example).

I don't think it's anything specific, more the fact that, as I said, he was Autocrat, and thus many considered him responsible for "atrocities" in Russia at the time.

Seeing as it was also Nicholas who declared war with Germany, he could also be considered responsible for all Russians that died in the war, not to mention being responsible for the lack of firearms and supplies for soldiers, which condemned many of them to their deaths.

As for Alexandra, in Bolshevik Russia, being German was enough to condemn her. But of course they'd find other "reasons" to execute her at the "trial".

Quote
What would you do with the children? Let them go, or also charge them with crimes against the Russian people?


Exile. (I'd try, anyway).

Frankly all this depends upon how much finger-pointing, and how cynical, one wants to be.

But if we need someone to bring forth more accusations, then I'm happy to be the on the prosecution. Say the word and I'll start digging for specifics.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on December 29, 2004, 09:01:20 AM
Please feel free to start. Richard is leading the prosecution team, so scroll up, read what he wrote, read the first charge filed, and coordinate your efforts with him via email and PM. Currently, January 10 is the deadline for all charges, although Richard is having some family emergencies at the moment, and I may want to postpone that deadline if need be to accomodate him..

FA
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Alice on December 30, 2004, 06:30:25 AM
Thanks FA, will do.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on December 30, 2004, 09:45:35 PM
The Defense team will be more than happy to accommodate the Prosecution should an extension be required.

I will be unavailable until after 10 January.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on January 10, 2005, 09:55:53 AM
I have gotten word that Richard is still dealing with family issues. We extend our healtfelt sympathy and best wishes to his family during this difficult time.  Given these circumstances, I have agreed to exent a 30 day contuance for the deadline for filing all charges by the Prosecution, although should things resolve themselves earlier, I ask that the charges be filed when ready, if before the 30 days.

FA
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 10, 2005, 01:15:29 PM
Belochka and I join the FA in wishing Richard well.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2005, 05:25:30 PM
Will there be people who will be playing the part as wittnesses?

Of course,  I realize all the "real" people are no longer living, but, some did leave letters etc. etc..  Or will this information be considered "heresay" and not admissible?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on January 22, 2005, 06:02:43 PM
There will be no "witnesses" as they are all frankly dead.  A first hand account would really be hearsay, but I will consider applications for admission of certain accounts as admissible evidence. Generally, I will permit  the accounts of a person of their own personal actions or their FIRST hand witnessing of events as admissible in this instance.  The accounts that " so and so told me" I think should be left out, but I will consider motions to consider.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on January 29, 2005, 11:13:05 PM
The Defense team is pleased to announce that we have been strengthed by the acceptance of a new member on our panel: James1941.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: pushkina on January 31, 2005, 06:01:26 PM
would all those who consider themselves members of the prosecution team IM me so that we can get progress reports?  thanks.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on January 31, 2005, 11:35:34 PM
Do we have a revised date listed for the cybercourt?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on February 01, 2005, 02:24:29 AM
The Defense team has just received instructions from our client Nikolai Alexandrovich (former Emperor of Russia) who is seeking to be informed whether any further charges are expected to be laid upon him. Secondly, will Nikolai Alexandrovich be the sole defendant?

Could the Prosecution please advise the Defense team of these matters?

Thank you,

Team for the Defense
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on February 01, 2005, 08:52:12 AM
ummm, Belochka, lets stop channelling the dearly departed?  ;D
Ouija board aside, Richard has simply disappeared with no word. Given what I know of the personal/family situation, I fear he has much to deal with at this time and understandably can not participate.  I have granted the prosecution a limited continuance to regroup and find additional help, as they are not without their lead.  Pushkina is travellng for work and will not be back for two weeks, so please be patient until sometime around the 15th or so.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on February 02, 2005, 12:25:48 AM
Thanks for letting me know. It makes it easier to toss things around behind the scenes when there is a tentative date.

No, I'm not into channelling the dearly departed, I was simply acting out the legal process to make it appear more realistic. ;D
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 14, 2005, 02:47:47 PM
Hi - I'm just checking in for the Defense. I have heard nothing about the case, and we are now at mid month in February. Does anyone have an update?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on February 15, 2005, 09:37:52 AM
Thanks for asking Lisa. I have heard from the Prosecution recently.  Richard is still dealing with serious family issues, nothing has changed there sadly.  Pushkina is lecturing at UCLA and not home until this coming weekend, my mix up in dates.  We are still hoping to hear from additional volunteers to help with the prosecution, but none have come forward to date, So I have no choice but to continue this for another week or two.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 15, 2005, 10:04:34 PM
With respect, your Honor, I would like to know the earliest time for the Defense to motion for a dismissal? I will be confering with our first chair soon.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on February 16, 2005, 09:52:02 AM
Let me confer with Pushkina on her return, and I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on February 26, 2005, 12:14:51 AM
Your Honor,

The Defense moves that the Prosecution delivers its Indictment along with a Statement of Facts and Contentions by 14 March 2005.

We also move that if your Honor does not receive these documents, then the case be dismissed.

Belochka for the Defense

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on February 26, 2005, 09:42:45 AM
I just had word yesterday about Richard. His family situation simply precludes his participation in the near future.  As I said, I expect to hear from Pushkina in the next few days.  I may simply grant a dismissal without prejudice so that charges can be re-considered at a later date.

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on February 26, 2005, 08:31:14 PM
Quote
I may simply grant a dismissal without prejudice so that charges can be re-considered at a later date.


Thank you your Honor.

The Defense Team  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 01, 2005, 08:44:38 AM
Quote
Should the charges against Nicholas be dismissed without prejudice and reconsidered at a later date, it would probably be a good idea to charge Alexandra and the children as well in the second go-around. During the trial, Alexandra and the Tsarevich should be made to stand the entire while and the girls handcuffed and shackled so as not to run away.


???  ???  ???
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 01, 2005, 06:27:08 PM
Quote
During the trial, Alexandra and the Tsarevich should be made to stand the entire while and the girls handcuffed and shackled so as not to run away.


Such commentary is completely uncalled for! >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 01, 2005, 06:40:51 PM
Quote
During the trial, Alexandra and the Tsarevich should be made to stand the entire while and the girls handcuffed and shackled so as not to run away.


In all the time I have been on this forum I have tried to remain silent on many contentious issues. However when such a despicable statement is made, I cannot remain silent.

KayTanaka,

Kindly please retract your statement to dignify the intention of this thread. Thank you.

Belochka
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Sunny on March 02, 2005, 06:04:34 AM
Kay's post is being misinterpreted. Her feelings about the IF are evident throughout her many contributions. I wouldn't presume to speak for her, so will leave it at this.

Sunny
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 02, 2005, 09:26:27 AM
Quote
Kay's post is being misinterpreted. Her feelings about the IF are evident throughout her many contributions. I wouldn't presume to speak for her, so will leave it at this.

Sunny


IMHO, even if Kay means these comments in a "sarcastic" way, they are still uncalled for. For a person who always claims to be so peace loving, these come off as very nasty and confrontational comments - any way you look at it. I am very surprised at her.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: rskkiya on March 02, 2005, 01:28:30 PM
Sunny,
I must agree with Helen A. This sort of comment -even if it is meant to be "sarcastic" seems -- well, pointless and in highly questionable taste in this contexts.


Kay?
Are you OK?

rskkiya
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on March 03, 2005, 09:47:20 AM
Kay,
This is not about "divine retribution" or anything like it. What this is supposed to be is an intellectual excercise, nothing more.  A dispassionate and unemotional examination of evidence.  Frankly, I would think you would appreciate and welcome the chance for the genuine evidence to be discussed, most especially about the children (who without doubt are innocent of any 'crime' save an accident of nature being born to their parents.)  You misunderstand my intent in allowing this to occur.
Rob
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 03, 2005, 08:07:10 PM
Thank you, your Honor.

Belochka
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Sunny on March 04, 2005, 11:22:58 AM
Respectfully, "Divine retribution" was not mentioned.
The quote was: ""Poetic Justice" and perhaps "Divine" interventions seem to be taking prevalence in this particular situation as they sometimes do in life."  

Sunny
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 19, 2005, 12:32:29 AM
Quote
Your Honor,

The Defense moves that the Prosecution delivers its Indictment along with a Statement of Facts and Contentions by 14 March 2005.

We also move that if your Honor does not receive these documents, then the case be dismissed.

Belochka for the Defense



With respect, your Honor, the Defense has been enormously patient waiting for a ruling on our request for dismissal. We have waited and waited. I really feel we have waited long enough.

Might we expect a ruling soon?
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2005, 10:08:58 AM
19 March 2005.

Given the lack of prosecution of the single charge filed and the failure of further charges to be filed in the matter of People vs. Nicholas II Romanov, the charge in this matter is hereby dismissed WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

The Court has taken into account the unavoidable personal circumstances of the Prosecution team in this decision, and also takes into account the fact that there is no pressing issue requiring a "speedy trial" in the instant matter.  Therefore, my decision is to grant a Dismissal Without Prejudice which will allow the Prosecution team to re-file any charges they may wish to bring at a subsequent date.  This decision will not alter any rules, guidelines or other procedural matters, should a charge be filed subsequently, and they shall still be in force for any such subequent filings.

There being no further business before this Court, this dismissal without prejudice is so Ordered by the Court and this Court shall stand adjourned.

Robert Moshein
Acting Procedural Judge.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 20, 2005, 05:40:20 PM
Thank you, Your Honor.

Team for the Defense  :( :( :(
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 20, 2005, 06:02:26 PM
Belochka would like to thank her very patient Defense Team, LisaD and James1941 for their continued support and enthusiasm to participate on the Defense Team.

I would also like to thank Your Honor. The Defense Team will be more than pleased to entertain a new trial at the next appropriate filed date.

On behalf of the Defense, I would like to extend our sincere good wishes to the Prosecution Team. May their personal issues be suitably resolved, so that we can all participate with this unique intellectual exercise.

We await for further instructions from Your Honor.

Thank you.

Belochka for the Defense. :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on March 29, 2005, 12:22:38 PM
Well I have never had a case dismissed before!  I hope I will be able to pull something together but don't hold me to a date yet.  Can I lodge the first count on the indictment again?  Or is there a tsarist plot to prevent prosecution - only joking!

I have all my original material - have things moved on, if someone else wants to lead the prosecution I am quite happy to support them, whatever.

As you know I have had major probelms with my dad and managing my mum, but things have become routine now and life has settled down for my wife and I so I do have some spare time.

Just so it is no surprise my first argument was going to be (and still will be if we proceed) why Nicholas should stand trial.  Accepting that in 1917 - 1918 the view was corectly taken that what he did as an autocrat meant he could not be placed on trial.  I would argue that things have moved on and he should be subject to human rights legislation.  

I need some time to put this into some form of order and then I will set out the facts about 'Bloody Sunday'  I accept ab initio that the Tsar was not at the Winter Palace and he did not directly give the order to fire, but he as 'the autocrat and de facto commander in chief of the military' was vicariously liable for the deaths etc.

So some opening thoughts as 'advanced disclosure'.  I will get in touch with the defence team and see if they are willing to take up the challenge again?  We are few in number but magnificent in intellect and spirited in our pursuit for justice. Small but perfectly formed I would suggest.

Thanks for your forebearance over the last couple of months it is appreciated.

Richard

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 29, 2005, 08:36:19 PM
Quote
Thanks for your forebearance over the last couple of months it is appreciated.

Richard


Welcome back Richard! ;D

The Defense will pleased to entertain a new date. We are also equally keen to see that justice be served.

His Honor will hopefully re-set a new date for the Trial at his earliest convenience.

The Team for the Defense  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on March 30, 2005, 09:20:01 AM
The Court will re-open the single count filed upon notice from the Prosecution of an approximate plan of time required for trial.  I sense that while the Prosecution is eager to proceed, they do not yet have the ability to hold to a specific schedule.  When the Court is confident that the matter may proceed in timely fashion, we will re-convene.

Acting Procedural Judge
Robert Moshein

Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 30, 2005, 06:42:40 PM
Thank you Your Honor.

Team for the Defense  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on March 31, 2005, 06:56:12 AM
Your Honour

I am seeking a directions hearing on how you would wish the prosecution to proceed and to define how the case will proceed.

1. My intention would be to open with issues that support both Count 1 of the indictment but will be applicable to further counts that may be laid.  These issues are around the acceptance that Nicholas II ruled as an autocrat; be was de facto the Supreme Commander of the Russian Armed Services; that the Okhrana were the Tsar's Secret Police and Intelligence Service; that the concept of vicarious liability applies to an autocrat.  ???

2. That for the purposes of this trial and any possible future trials that the defence cannot rely upon the Russian law of the period that led even Trotsky to the view that there could be no prosecution of the Tsar for torts done when he was the 'autocratic ruler'.  If they were allowed to rely on this archaic Russian law there could be no realistic chance of a prosecution getting passed the arraingment stage.

3. Do we need to discuss case law in the trial and submissions - interesting to lawyers but mind boggling to non lawyers or will broad concepts be enough for example: to state what vicarious liability is and to give examples of this?  Case law could cause problems I would tend to use English law I guess others might use US, Canadian law etc.  This could be difficult as definitions and interpretations vary significantly.  Maybe we could agree a definition of vicarious liability for instance ???

4. How do we get evidence and submissions into the thread - some could be quite lengthy - do we forward to you or is there some other way?

5. Although I some actual eye witness accounts to the events of 9 january 1905 I would generally use 3rd party historical fact - is this permissible - otherwise with the absence of anyone still being alive who was present on the day and has a memory of it the prosecution would be stuffed for witnesses?

6. Have we got enough members for a jury and can I vet them to ensure they are not all Tsarist sympathisers! (Only joking  ;D)  Mind you the outcome doesn't really bother me it is the learning that will come out of it and the intellectual exercise of arguing the case that matters.

Regards

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on March 31, 2005, 10:14:06 AM
To the Prosecution:
My intention would be to open with issues that support both Count 1 of the indictment but will be applicable to further counts that may be laid.  These issues are around the acceptance that Nicholas II ruled as an autocrat; be was de facto the Supreme Commander of the Russian Armed Services; that the Okhrana were the Tsar's Secret Police and Intelligence Service; that the concept of vicarious liability applies to an autocrat.
Once you can establish to the satisfaction of the Court any issue in the first charge which may be applicable to any subsequent charge(s), you may simply request the Court take Judicial Notice of the previously established issue you wish to raise.  The Defense, of course, may attempt to rebut or prevent the notice being taken by raising appropriate issues.

2.  Imperial Russian Law will not be controlling for any issue raised in the charges.  The controlling law will be the Canadian Protocol, and any further law of Crimes against Humanity either side suggests to be relevant. However, nothing prevents either side from asking the Court and Jury to consider Imperial Russian Law as it may relate to the actions of any defendant(s) as an indication of guilt, innocence or culpability, on a case by case basis.

3. I would suggest that case law be submitted privately to the Court for consideration, again using the Canadian protocols for guidance.  Please cite only the case, court, date and relevant points of law. Should I require the full case, I will request it. Guidance about consideration by the jury will be made via a ruling in open court.  "Vicarious liability" of an absolute monarch, Mr. Prosecutor, must be established as a matter of law by you as part of the trial process. You may argue any nation's law you wish, however, it must also be demonstrated why this court should consider any point of law over any other (ie: in the US, you may raise California law in a Texas court to prove a point, but must demonstrate why it should be accepted in the instant matter).

4. Re: evidentiary submissions. In order to prevent prejudice to the jury, Evidence to be submitted will FIRST be proffered to opposing counsel by private email.  Opposing counsel may accept or object to inclusion of the specific evidence.  Agreed evidence will be submitted via email to the Court, for inclusion in the record for the Jury.  Dispute over evidence will be resolved privately via email to the court. One motion from each side (sent also to opposing counsel) then one rebuttal each side, same format. Then a ruling from the Court.

5.  Historical evidence may be considered.  this is simply evidence like any other and shall be treated as in 4 supra. Reliabilty of the source may be challenged by opposing counsel.

6.We have a minimal jury.  I would actually like to see a few more jurors if possible.  Counsel will have to accept the word of the Court that jurors have been "vetted" by the Court and no preemptory challenge to a juror shall be considered. I want jurors to be totally anonymous save to the Court.

So ruled this 31st day of March, 2005
Robert Moshein
Acting Procedural Judge.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on March 31, 2005, 07:26:44 PM
Quote
Counsel will have to accept the word of the Court that jurors have been "vetted" by the Court and no preemptory challenge to a juror shall be considered. I want jurors to be totally anonymous save to the Court.

So ruled this 31st day of March, 2005
Robert Moshein
Acting Procedural Judge.


Due to the perculiar circumstances of this Trial, the Defense Team are pleased to accept that the Court has suitably "vetted" members of the Jury in a manner fair and reasonable to all attending Counsel.

The Defense Team  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: highlowhall on September 11, 2005, 10:54:25 AM
Nicholas firstly, wasn´t prepared in any way whatsoever to take on the role of Emperor, considering  his father was such as great man, he didnt exactly prèpare his son for the mighty task ahead.

And Nicholas was a victim of a rapidly changing era, I believe any man placed in Nicholas´s place would have had a tough time. Russia being such a vast country, he was far removed from the poverty of his people.

Also he was a gentle, family man, the great remembered rulers that come to mind were ruthless and deliberate.

So I conclude, he was a victim of circumstance, although I do hold him responsible for some very stupid mistakes, perhaps if he had been better prepared as a politian, he could have evolved with Russia.


Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2005, 02:37:15 AM
Hi highlowhall,

Welcome to the forum.

Your sentiments are appreciated, however there is a specific thread which discusses Nikolai's positive attributes:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=nicky;action=display;num=1116891164;start=225#225

You are welcome to contribute there.

Belochka  :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on January 16, 2006, 03:21:51 PM
This question was placed in the Trial thread, and so I moved it over here. My apologies that I can't move over the whole thing, just the text.

"As the trial seems in recess, now seems a convenient time for a question from a member of the fourth estate:  

Does not a trial against an annointed emperor violate the doctrine of sovereign immunity?

Nadezhda Edvardova
International Politics & Law Editor
Georgia Telegraph"

Dear Nadezhda,
The answer of course, is that any "sovereign immunity" Nicholas II may have had was lost along with his throne.  The concept of sovereign immunity as defense to crimes against humanity only applies to reigning sovereigns or elected officials, or former sovereigns/officials who's governments were illegally terminated. Nicholas II abdicated his throne legally, therefore this argument fails.

Secondly, current legal theory on the subject is this -  Criminal acts that are so heinous as to be considered jus cogens (peremptory norms prohibited everywhere), such as genocide and crimes against humanity, are not typically considered to be “official acts” for sovereign immunity purposes, and the trend is clearly developing away from allowing political leaders off the hook for such conduct. For example, the British House of Lords found in the 1999 Pinochet extradition case that torture should not be considered an official act for immunity purposes. This line of argument was also attempted by defense counsel for the Nazi co-conspirators at Nuremberg and soundly rejected by the International Military Tribunal on the grounds that the defendants’ conduct amounted to such egregious violations of international law that knowledge of the illegality of those actions should be imputed to them and ex post facto application of the law of the Nuremberg Charter, which reflected international law and which likewise stripped away sovereign immunity, would not be unjust. (Sovereign Immunity for Sadam Not Likely Jurist http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2005/10/sovereign-immunity-for-saddam-not.php

See also: "The official position of defendants, whether as Heads of State or responsible officials in Government departments, shall not be considered as freeing them from responsibility or mitigating punishment."
Article 7 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg

Under long-settled rules of international law, any court may exercise universal jurisdiction over acts amounting to crimes against humanity, such as widespread or systematic murder, torture, forced disappearance, arbitrary detention, forcible transfer and persecution on political grounds, and heads of state and former heads of state do not enjoy immunity under international law - whether in international or national courts - for crimes under international law, including crimes against humanity and torture.
(Sir Robert Jennings, QC & Sir Arthur Watts, KCMG, QC, 1 Oppenheim's International Law (London and New York: Longman 9th ed. 1996

Lastly, The Statute of Rome explicitly states that the official position of the accused is irrelevant to a prosecution. (Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court adopted by the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries on the Establishment of an International Criminal Court on July 17, 1998, as corrected by the procès-verbaux of November 10, 1998, July 12, 1999, November 30, 1999 and May 8, 2000)

I hope this answers your question.

FA-Rob Moshein
Acting Judge
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Nadezhda Edvardovna on January 17, 2006, 12:53:28 PM
I'm grateful for Acting Judge Moshiem's reply to my question.

If I'm understanding it all properly, the Nuremberg Trials are the first time in history in which a lawful officers of a nation's government were held accountable for crimes against humanity, and this establishes the principle under which the moot court trial of Nicholas II is instituted in the other thread.

While I ardently support the intellectual exercise, I wonder at it--after all, the actions for which Nicholas II might be tried were committed well before the Nuremburg principle was established. Well within international acceptance of the doctrine of sovereign immunity, is this not so?

Naturally, crowned heads have been convicted--and rolled--well before Nicholas II was ever born.  And the death sentence proclaimed by Parliament against Charles I establishes (at least in ENGLISH law) the concept that treason is committed against the *people*.

Pax, Nadezhda
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on January 17, 2006, 03:36:31 PM
Nadezhdah,

Well, the point of the moot court exercise is this. People often bandy about the term "criminal" "despot" "bloody" etc to describe Nicholas II and his reign, and that as these "criminals" the murders of the Imperial Family were "justified" and "they deserved it". So, it was decided to analyze his reign using the modern laws of "crimes against humanity" to see if in fact these terms are legitmate in their application to Nicholas and the family. Of course, using the laws of 1917 Nicholas could never be tried for anything, most especially since there was no concept of an International Court nor the concept of "crimes against humanity" for that matter.

Thus, we decided to set aside the laws of the period (moreso since virtually no one participating here is nearly well versed enough to actually USE them, while many of us, myself included, are well acquainted with modern law and its usage.)

Rob
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Nadezhda Edvardovna on January 18, 2006, 10:25:43 AM
Hi Rob--I suppose I should have said something like "supposing Nicholas II escaped, he still couldn't be prosecuted because the laws post date his actions, right?" But, genius that you are, you spied my question and answered it despite my butchering of the English language! Many thanks.  If only I could comprehend the legalese in the moot trial list now... Pax, N
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Forum Admin on January 18, 2006, 03:12:30 PM
Nadezhdah, or anyone else for that matter, please do not HESITATE to ask any questions you may have if you don't understand the "legalese" of the trail thread. Either ask them in this thread or start a new one called "Questions about the Trial" or something like that. We want this to be a learing exercise for all.

Rob
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: horace on May 18, 2006, 04:10:30 PM
We have to take a historical perspective on the "crimes." It was a more brutal time. Now, people
are all excited if terrorists "rights" are trampled on. The revolution was just a shift in power with
the lowly peasant probably becoming worse off after the Lenin gang. I don't believe Nicholas was a
crimminal, certainly his family wasn't.
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on May 18, 2006, 10:28:07 PM
Quote
We have to take a historical perspective on the "crimes." It was a more brutal time. Now, people
are all excited if terrorists "rights" are trampled on. The revolution was just a shift in power with
the lowly peasant probably becoming worse off after the Lenin gang. I don't believe Nicholas was a
crimminal, certainly his family wasn't.

Welcome to the Forum horace,

Nikolai II committed no crimes against Imperial Russia or his people.

It is repugnant for anyone today, particularily in this present global climate, to contemplate that he had to be held to account. That was one reason why I accepted this cybercourt challenge (an intellectual exercise only) to DEFEND his Imperial name in a modern context.

Margarita
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on May 22, 2006, 09:29:21 AM
Well - esteemed Counsel for the Defence making statements around the defendants guilt outside the Court, whatever will happen next?

Rob are you going to send the jury out on Bloody Sunday indictment, after your summing up and their directions my esteemed adversary and I might be able to move on to some of the crimes Nicholas II initiated, such as the pogroms against the Jews.

A serial offender methinks.  Not that counsel for the Prosecution would ever stoop to influencing others outside of the court room debate.

Hope you are all well

Richard
Chief and only Prosecutor of Nicholas II - no one esle wanted the job even Trotsky!
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on May 23, 2006, 07:23:05 AM
Quote
Well - esteemed Counsel for the Defence making statements around the defendants guilt outside the Court, whatever will happen next?

Hope you are all well

Richard
Chief and only Prosecutor of Nicholas II - no one esle wanted the job even Trotsky!

To my learned friend the Chief Prosecutor,

Door stop "interviews" immediately outside the Court is an acceptable practice. Are you worried that you missed out on such an opportunity?  ;)

Since "Trotsky" declined to assist you then maybe he wisely realized that there is no case to answer after all?

All the best,

Margarita

Chief and only Defense Counsel for Nikolai II
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on May 23, 2006, 12:47:46 PM
Margarita

Only you and I have seen this through, it is so disappointing.  Trotsky knew he was guilty but only had outdated Romanov laws to rely on which excluded the dynasty from culpability in any crime.  He also knew that the AP Discussion Board would come along and that I would be the most unpopular person in it for prosecuting Nicholas.

It is a pity a few more do not become involved in the process; a trial on the pogroms would be both challenging and very enlightening for members.

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Belochka on May 23, 2006, 07:27:50 PM
Quote
Margarita

Only you and I have seen this through, it is so disappointing.  Trotsky knew he was guilty but only had outdated Romanov laws to rely on which excluded the dynasty from culpability in any crime.  He also knew that the AP Discussion Board would come along and that I would be the most unpopular person in it for prosecuting Nicholas.

It is a pity a few more do not become involved in the process; a trial on the pogroms would be both challenging and very enlightening for members.

Richard

Hi Richard and Rob,

I believe that many people feel extremely uncomfortable about this entire process. I have received mail to that effect.

This section has become perhaps too exclusive, and no doubt explains the deafening silence.

Perhaps it may be best to initiate a new thread in the Nikolai II section - where everyone else can participate? What do you think? The topic is broadly interesting and will permit all forum members to contribute something academic. You never know, it could lead to another appearance in this Court at a later date.

I congratulate Richard for being a worthy "opponent" [even if you were on the wrong side  ;) of the floor] and for your keen participation during the entire proceedings. It was academically worth while.

I wish to thank Judge Rob for allowing us the opportunity to participate here with grace and decorum. It is an interesting concept which could be pursued at a latter date.

The Defense thanks the Court,

Margarita Nelipa
  :)
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Richard_Cullen on May 29, 2006, 11:08:19 AM
Margarita and Rob

I agree and it allows my extremely worthy Counsel for the defence a way out without the jury returning a guilty verdict - only joking.  Of course anyone could have participated in this thread but people declined to do so.  I do have to say that some people cannot understand the fact that this is not a 'real' trial but an interesting academic exercise.  I have learnt a good deal from particpiating in the process and it forced me into a huge amount of research that I would otherwise have not undertaken.  I think for most of the time this has been a lonely process for myself and Margarita.

A Russian friend of mine was disgusted that I had the affront to prosecute the last Tsar.  I was rather amazed with his reaction and in real terms why should Nicholas not have been prosecuted if legislation were available (and it wasn't) to mount such a case?  But at the end of the day it is what it is an interesting and I believe, stimulating exercise.

I have really enjoyed the challenge but less people than I thought have offered to be involved in the process or to ask questions about the evidence and the facts.

I am quite happy for it to go in the main thread as long as we stick to the facts and don't have page after page of speculative comment (nice phrase, but you know what I mean).

Regards as ever

Richard
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Nathalie on June 09, 2006, 04:37:18 AM
Well, if you ask me, the system is gulty on the first place, what allows persons from a certain lineage to consider themselves "choosen"-to sum it up, I find the insitute of kingdom very ridicoulous. Just because you-and sorry for being vulgar-have the luck to be THAT sperm from THAT man, u get all the privileges, car, money, palaces and the title His Royal Highness?
No, thanks, it is out of my imagination of justice.
Mostof the royalities are not better than anybody and in this aspect I certainly agree with communists who say, have what you worked for. And as we look through history, many royals would have been luckier if they were born as a simple person. Nicholas as well. Through the figure of the last Tsar, I think it is clear, that such systems are miserables and just destroying people-both the one who rules and the ones who are ruled.
I can't imagine myself being so impressed by a person, just because his name is Romanov or Windsor or Hohenzollern or whatever. Why I should adress him HIGHness? What makes him high?...Most of these princs and princesses never did anything in their life. My mother is high who works 8 hours a day and then she gets home tired and do the chores (most of the time, i am abroad...) My husband is HIGH, because when I have no job, he works, he takes over and still he tries to smile and look relaxed and puts bread on the table.
You gotta earn this title and not only by wearing a name, what is fancied by some people.

So yes, I think Nicholas was-within a certain limit-guilty. I am not sure he deserved death, and as for his children, they definitely DID NOT, but Nicholas II. was not a good ruler. He seems like  a very good person to me, but not a good ruler. And as for Alexandra, she also seems like a great mother and wife but a disaster in politics. If I were a hungry, desperate Russian woman back in those times, well...I'd just burn fire the whole thing and get some bread.
Trust me, I know, what Im talking about, cz I have lived in one of the richest country in the world and I was literally starving. Seeing all those villas and catsles, knowing that the owners did a jack for it, just they were lucky, well, I certainly felt what those Russians could have felt. :P
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on November 28, 2011, 06:44:04 PM
I have some comments:
In reply 73 concerning torture from reading the books "Young Stalin" and "The Gulag Archipelago" torture WAS NOT used in Russia under Nicholas II. So we can clear him of that charge.
in the online book on this site "The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Federonova" it mentions that if Nicholas II would stand trial he wanted Senator Anatoly Koni, one of the leading lawyers in Russia to defend him. Koni is best known for defending the female anarchist Vera Zassulich who shot and wounded the head of the St Petersburg Police and the jury found her inocent. No doubt this would be a very interesting trial!
Title: Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 27, 2012, 01:46:15 PM
This is more of an opinion statement and touchy to some people, surly no one derives to be put to death WITHOUT an official trial, to many that's cold and cruel. 
I will post my opinion and secondly, do forgive me; I'm not a professional historian (its only part time lol)

As we all know, as today, people would say of Nicholas II’s regime as “poorly” and him as a kind person yet weak ruler.  But people forget, he was the Autocrat, ruler of all the Russias, however do the time and change of socialism- Kings across Europe were losing their crowns, as the Gilded Age of Kings and Riches were over.

What I find to be odd, his that Ivan the Terrible was consider a "Great Tsar" while Nicholas II was called "Nicholas the Bloody"  because of unrest of Workers (sadly, Nicholas should have made better living and working conditions for them!) and Bloody Sunday, quiet ironic.

I do believe Nicholas II and many aristocrats were killed without trial, as many Bolsheviks were indeed not religious. as for "Crimes against Russia." Government under Kerensky  even state that Nicholas II, as under arrest, was no traitor to Russia.

I strongly believe, the Bolsheviks only killed the Romanovs in cold blood and for revenge (Since the Romanovs were never officially trial, Nicholas II himself was not even allowed to testify for his own behalf). As even during the murder, each member of executors were give a person to shot, however when guns began to shot they all aim them at their former Tsar - clearly out of revenge and hatred.  Only Yakov Yurovsky the chief executioner took his job of the Romanovs seriously, but he too killed in cold blood as no offical trial.