Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Habsburgs => Topic started by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 16, 2004, 12:00:40 PM

Title: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 16, 2004, 12:00:40 PM
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Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 16, 2004, 07:50:12 PM
Sisi had a sad life.  Her beauty was an asset to the empire.  Franz Josef would bring her around to hungary and italy, both places where his popularity was declining, hoping her beauty would make him and the Austrian rule more popular.

Sisi had a not very caring husband (he was submissive to his mother and he a lot of political issues to worry about) and bad mother-in-law who took her eldest children away and mock her with other members of the court.  The only asset she felt she had control of was her beauty and youth.  She was obsessed with her beauty esp her long hair.  She did a lot of exercises and ate very little (few fruits, meat juice and milk) to keep her figure slim.

Her wishes were met when she died.  She said she wanted to die away from her family, near the water and suddenly.  Ironically, all those three criteria were met.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 17, 2004, 04:21:13 AM
Sisi seems to have had in full measure the Wittelsbach propensity for eccentricity.  She was very much a victim of her own beauty as it rather overtook her life.  I have to say that I have some sympathy for Franz Josef; whilst I don't think that he ever really understood her, he did try to accommodate her wish to travel for lengthy periods, and to be away from the court.
The Wittelsbach repautation for eccentricity was manifested in its severest form in Ludwig's brother (Otto, I think) who was mentally ill; Ludwig himself cannot be said to have been entirely balanced.  The bond between Sisi and Ludwig  may have had some basis in the fact that they felt unique amongst the other royal personages - their eccentricity might have been part of this.
Another Wittlesbach who also shared this reputaion for eccentrictiy was Queen Elisabeth of Belgium - I may be wrong but I think that her nickname was 'The Red Queen'.  Adored by her people, she was sometimes controversial; there is a great picture of her wearing her tiara upside down on her head (sounds bonkers but looks quite original).  She was an admirable woman who channeled her unconventional approach to life into doing good for others.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Lisa on December 17, 2004, 07:28:25 AM
Here is the weapon:
(http://digilander.libero.it/gesnet/images/f_sis/sisf8.jpg)

and the murderer Luigi Lucheni
(http://digilander.libero.it/gesnet/images/f_sis/sisf10.jpg)

http://digilander.libero.it/gesnet/sis/sis_gal.htm
http://www.osterhasen-museum.de/english/e_sisiD.htm
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 17, 2004, 01:21:48 PM
Ludwig II seemed to suffer from a severe form of bipolar-disorder, with extreme manic episodes (ie: his building mania and narcissism).

Elisabeth appears to have been unipolar-deppressive (no ups & downs like bipolar-disorder; just a constant, dull depression).   it can develop at any point or can be inherited --- i inherited a chemical imbalance from my father that manifests itself as unipolar-depression.    i also seem to share at least 2 other illnesses with her:   obsessive-compulsive-disorder (aka: OCD) and severe social-anxiety-disorder.  
   her "mania" about her hair, her extreme devotion to excercise & her figure are typical of OCD compulsions; and her narcissistic "mania" about her beauty is a classic example of an OCD obsession.    unfortunately, it's a short trip from those behaviors to anorexia, bulemia, body-dismorphic-disorder and several other illnesses that are more common today than they were in her time.    
    she also seems to have had something in common with Howard Hughes (another OCD sufferer):   their extreme OCD behaviors appear to have been triggered by having been given sexually transmitted diseases by people they trusted.    Sisi contracted an STD (i can't recall which one) from Franz Josef, and it completely destroyed her "knight in shining armor/prince-charming" view of him, as well as whatever sense of security she may have felt.  very shortly thereafter, her wandering began.  
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Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 17, 2004, 01:40:33 PM
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Elisabeth appears to have been unipolar-deppressive (no ups & downs like bipolar-disorder; just a constant, dull depression).   it can develop at any point or can be inherited ---  
     Sisi contracted an STD (i can't recall which one) from Franz Josef, and it completely destroyed her "knight in shining armor/prince-charming" view of him, as well as whatever sense of security she may have felt.  


It seems that the Crown Prince, Sisi's son, inherited her clinical depression, hence this is why he constantly felt suicidal and finally succeeded.  

I didn't know that Sisi got an STD from FJ, was this one of the main reasons for the deterioration of their relationship?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 17, 2004, 02:26:00 PM
Is there evidence that this was the reason for her restlessness?  I have scoured the Joan Haslip book 'The Lonely Empress' which admittedly was written a long time ago (1964) but can find no mention of it.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 17, 2004, 03:30:18 PM
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Is there evidence that this was the reason for her restlessness?  I have scoured the Joan Haslip book 'The Lonely Empress' which admittedly was written a long time ago (1964) but can find no mention of it.  



depression, as an illness, wasn't really recognized in 1964.    you might check-out the book titled DEATH BY FAME (i don't have the book here in front of me and at the moment, i can't recall the author).



Posted by: helen_azar      Posted on: Today at 11:40am
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I didn't know that Sisi got an STD from FJ, was this one of the main reasons for the deterioration of their relationship?


pretty-much....i think the shock destroyed her dreamy view of her young husband and she ceased to truly trust him.  for his part, FJ apparently, spent the rest of his life feeling guilty about it.    he did truly love his wife, but i suspect his "over-indulgence" of her stemmed from his sense of having "soiled" (in a sense) his idealistic young wife.

from what i remember, FJ had contracted some-sort of STD or other before his marriage.   i assume it wasn't syphilis, since it never seemed to affect his over-all health or mental-state.   also, it didn't seem to affect Sisi's child-bearing.    
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 17, 2004, 03:52:48 PM
That is really interesting Brian.  She ceratinly would not be the first woman to have that happen to her.  I really ejoyed the Joan Haslip book, but felt at the end that it glossed over certain issues somewhat.  It was only when I had finished reading it that I realised that it was written way back in 1964; obviously back then, things were maybe less frankly discussed.
Thanks for the book recommendation; I will add it to the long list of things that I need to read......
By the way, the black dress with the train is stunning.  Do you know which collection it is in?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 17, 2004, 06:22:45 PM
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Posted by: helen_azar      Posted on: Today at 11:40am

from what i remember, FJ had contracted some-sort of STD or other before his marriage.   i assume it wasn't syphilis, since it never seemed to affect his over-all health or mental-state.   also, it didn't seem to affect Sisi's child-bearing.    


That seems to make sense.  The book by Joan Haslip mentions at the beginning of their marriage Sisi always FJ was cheating on her.  It said she was devastated b/c she couldn't believe he cheated on her since she was the most beautiful woman in europe.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 18, 2004, 07:52:29 AM
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depression, as an illness, wasn't really recognized in 1964.    you might check-out the book titled DEATH BY FAME (i don't have the book here in front of me and at the moment, i can't recall the author).


I believe they used to refer to it as "melancholia", but in general they didn't know what to make of it. Looking back in history, so many historical figures seem to have suffered from it, but were not able to be treated. The medical professionals, and everyone else, recognized something was wrong, but they really couldn't understand what it was or what to do about it...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 18, 2004, 06:51:23 PM
I'm quite sure that they were expensive.  There was a Winterhalter exhibition some years ago that toured - I saw it at the National Portrait Gallery - and these two paintings were amongst the ones exhibited.  They were the largest paintings in the exhibition.  Obviously full length portraits were more expensive than half or three quarters and these two were bigger than any of the other full length single portraits.  I couldn't help feeling that Sissi completely overwhelmed and dominated the companion piece of Franz Josef; there is something incredibly wistful and elusive about the picture of her which might be to do with the backward glancing pose.  It is almost as if Winterhalter has caught her in mid-flight - an appropriate metaphor perhaps for the way that her life ultimately developed.......
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 18, 2004, 09:18:22 PM
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By the way, the black dress with the train is stunning.  Do you know which collection it is in?




it's in the collection of the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna.    besides an extensive collection of various court uniforms, they, apparently, have a rather large collection of Sisi's clothes.    i'm just fascinated by the length of that train and how it's actually the skirt and not of the detachable type.     she certainly knew what clothing suited her, didn't she?


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 18, 2004, 09:27:19 PM
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By the way, the black dress with the train is stunning.  Do you know which collection it is in?



by the way, this and all court-gowns, were referred to as "Hofkleid".
this gown, in particular, is referred to thusly:

"Schwarzes Hofkleid der Kaiserin Elisabeth von Osterreich und Ungarn"
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 19, 2004, 05:20:10 AM
Brian thanks so much for the information about the black dress; you're right that train is immense and must have been so difficult to handle.  it is abit of a mystery why it has such a long train - after all it would appear to be an ordinary toilette (could be for mourning, although Elisabeth was inordinately fond of black) and not a court dress.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 19, 2004, 05:31:09 AM
Joan Haslip in her book 'The Lonely Empress' has this to say about the Winterhalter portraits
"Two portraits by Winterhalter, both painted in 1865, show us Elizabeth at the age of twenty-eight.  The artist , whom the Emperor describes as 'a strange independent man', appears to have pleased the Empress, and in pleasing her succeeded in capturing on canvas her shy mysterious smile, her almost  magical charm.   In a vaporous white ball dress, studded with stars, and diamond stars in her hair, she appears ethereally beautiful, elusive and intangible.  Looking at this portrait one understands why Francis Joseph could refuse her nothing, why wounded soldiers in hospital begged for her picture to hang above their beds, and peasants in Hungary burnt candles to her image.  When Winterhalter brought his first sketches back to Paris and showed them to Eugenie, the French Empress, who for the last decade had been recognised as the arbiter of elegance and beauty, generously and unhesitatingly acclaimed the Austrian Empress, twelve years her junior, as 'the loveliest crowned head in Europe'."
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 19, 2004, 05:37:15 AM
On page 180 she continues:
"Winterhalter's second portrait of Elizabeth was commissioned by the Emperor for his private study, where it remained to the day of his death.  Today (in 1964) the orginal is at Persenberg castle in possession of the Empress' grandson, the Archduke Hubertus Salvator, and only a copy remains in the Hofburg.  It shows us Elizabeth in a simple white dressing gown, with her long hair hanging down in two shining plaits."
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 19, 2004, 07:43:09 AM
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Brian thanks so much for the information about the black dress; you're right that train is immense and must have been so difficult to handle.  it is abit of a mystery why it has such a long train - after all it would appear to be an ordinary toilette (could be for mourning, although Elisabeth was inordinately fond of black) and not a court dress.  Any thoughts?


that black gown is one of Elisabeth's court-gowns, from the later-half of her life.    the train is so long because it's the length required by the Austrian Imperial Court.     just as it was at the Imperial Court of Russia, each level of the nobility had certain "requirements" it had to fulfill with regards to dress when attending officicial receptions, balls, whatever.        the trains of both Russian grand duchesses and Austrian archduchesses, were to be of a certain length;  ladies-in-waiting for both courts were somewhat shorter than those of the imperial ladies they were attatched to; maids-of-honor's trains were shorter than those of the ladies-in-waiting; etc.

actually, every court in europe had similar rules.    

in the case of this gown, it is from the period in Elisabeth's life when she had divested herself of the greater part of her jewelry and, generally, wore only black.    with this gown she would probably have worn her rope/s of black pearls (she also had a tiara of black diamonds she wore when the occasion required).  

the pic i posted shows the skirt paired with the high-necked bodice.    many gowns of this era were made with 2 bodices, one was often high-necked (generally for daytime functions or more somber occasions); the other bodice was cut along the evening line....with a lowsquare neckline, or more often, off-the-shoulder, suitable for court functions, balls etc......  


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 19, 2004, 07:50:51 AM
it just occurred to me that this particular hofkleid could, very well, have been meant to be worn during official court-mourning.    

for that matter, the high-necked-bodice, being absolutely covered in jet-beaded-lace, i'd venture to guess is almost certainly meant for court-mourning, while the low-necked bodice would have been meant for somewhat less somber occasions.

that's my guess, anyway  ;)   ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pers on December 20, 2004, 09:16:20 AM
Could you please post more photographs from latter part of her life?
Then has anyone read "The secret of an Empress" by Countess Zanardi Landi?  I thought it is a very well written book from a subjective perspective for which I do not think, one can fault the authoress...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on December 20, 2004, 11:07:33 AM
I've seen that photo of the two elderly ladies before, but I really doubt it shows the empress. She doesn't at all resemble Elisabeth. But I have nothing to prove my opinion. I may be wrong. I'd be really interested to know more about the history of that photograph. It looks strange anyway.

All the other photos posted above are NOT from later life but from the 1860s. There are very many photos of the empress from that period.  Of course there are also those snapshots from the 1890s, but you can't recognize any details on those.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on December 20, 2004, 11:08:50 AM
Hamann's Reluctant Empress is THE key biography.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on December 20, 2004, 12:17:22 PM
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Hamann's Reluctant Empress is THE key biography.



i agree....to a point.     some aspects of it are somewhat out-dated.

have you, by any chance, read DEATH BY FAME by andrew sinclair?
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Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 20, 2004, 01:40:15 PM
Brian thank you for clearing up the question about the black dress and its extensive train.  it had never occurred to me that it could be a court dress due to the high neckline and sleeves; if I had thought more carefully I might have realised that it could well be a toilette for court mourning.  I love those dresses that have two bodices - they are so versatile.  They do look completely different depending on which bodice is worn.
Have you ever seen the Visconti film 'Ludwig'?  The costumes were designed by Piero Tosi, a very famous and talented designer who worked primarily with Visconti and Zeffirelli; the film has several scenes in which Elisabeth comes to visit her cousin Ludwig and his various building projects (if I remember correctly).  Each time we see her she is dressed in black; upon close inspection each of these wonderful black costumes is subtly different - and each one incredibly beautiful.
I have to say that the photos of Elisabeth dressed in velvet and fur are simply the epitome of glamour, and very hard to equal.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 21, 2004, 02:35:38 PM
Elisa thank you so much for the information about the Hofburg 'Sisi' museum.  I am really amazed that that image is of her death mask; is it really as gaunt as it looks?
This is the account of Elisabeth's death according to Joan Haslip:
"According to Countess Sztaray they had almost reached the landing stage, when a man suddenly collided with them.  They stepped aside to make way for him and to her horror the lady-in-waiting saw him raise a fist against the Empress, knocking the wite parasol out of her hand and causing her to fall backwards with her head knocking against the pavement.  It all happened so quickly that the Countess heard herself screaming before she knew exactly what had happened.  A cab driver and the hotel porter who had witnessed the scene and immediately alerted the police came to their rescue.  The Empress was helped to her feet.  Though she was flushed and agitated  and walked with difficulty she insisted she was not hurt, 'only frightened by that horrible man'.  The porter suggested she should return to the hotel, but after straightening her hat and shaking the dust off her clothes, she decided to go on board, and she had barely crossed the gangway, when she suddenly turned deathly white and turning to Irma Sztaray said 'give me your arm quickly, I am going to fall'.  Irma threw her arms around her , a man servant hurried to help and from a distance Irma heard the porter calling from the shore ' the assassin has been caught'.  It was only then it dawned on her that her mistress had been murdered.
Elizabeth fainted, and the Captain, not realising who she was, advised the Countess to have her taken back on shore as the boat was due to start.  But Irma Sztaray still hoped to get her mistress back to Territet to her own doctor and her own attendants.  The Captian offered his cabin, but one of the passengers, who happened to have been a nurse, said it was better for her to be in the open air.  So they carried the Empress on to an upper deck and tried to revive her with water and sugar soaked in alchohol.  Slowly she opened her eyes, the eyes of a dying woman.  The ghost of a smile passed over her face.  She whispered 'What is it?' then sank back into unconsciousness.  'Rub her breast', commanded the nurse and it was only when the Empress's bodice was unbuttoned that Irma saw a brownish stain on her chemise with a little hole in the middle and a tiny wound on the breast with a small clot of blood.  'The Empress has been murdered' she cried, but the boat had already started and the noise of the engines drowned her voice.
When the Captain was told of the identity of his dying passenger, he ordered the boat to return to Geneva.  An improvised stretcher of two oars and some deck chairs brought the Empress back to the Beau-Rivage.  She was till breathing, but the breathing was rapidly deteriorating into a death rattle.  And the doctor summoned to the hotel, told her weeping lady-in-waiting that there was no hope of her recovery.  She had only lived so long because the weapon which pierced her breast and entered her heart was so narrow and the wound so small that the heart only stopped gradually to beat, which was why she had been able to walk on to the boat without realising what had happened to her.  A priest administered the last sacraments, but she died without regaining consciousness.  Fate had been kind to Elizabeth in answering her prayers.  She had died far from her loved ones and death took her unaware."
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on December 21, 2004, 03:45:01 PM
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the erotic value of women's hair; only young girls were permitted to wear their hair loose - even young unmarried women were expected to appear in public with their hair dressed in a style, that is to say contained in some fashion.  Both these portraits were intended to be seen if not just by their husbands, then by a limited few; images of one's queen or empress 'en deshabille' and with their hair unbound simply were not commensurate with their exalted position.


Yes, indeed. Loose hair stood for "nakedness" in those days, so those two portraits of Sisi were quite scandalous.
Even more so as one of them could be seen by any person granted an audience with the emperor. So the/these painting(s) gave some cause for gossip.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Janet_W. on December 21, 2004, 04:34:13 PM
Yes, and of course wearing your wavy long hair in front of your lightly clothed body suggests, all the more, a state of nakedness.  :o

Add to Elisabeth's provacative personna her distant attitude toward her husband, as well as the the coddling relationship with her son, and . . . well, no wonder Rudolph had issues . . .
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 21, 2004, 05:26:24 PM
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Yes, and of course wearing your wavy long hair in front of your lightly clothed body suggests, all the more, a state of nakedness.  :o

Add to Elisabeth's provacative personna her distant attitude toward her husband, as well as the the coddling relationship with her son, and . . . well, no wonder Rudolph had issues . . .


Sisi was rather rebellious.  These portraits with her hair down was her way to rebel against traditions too.  

i read that the 2nd one with her hair tied in a knot is her favorite...anybody know where she put the painting?

And rudolph, poor him since he inherited his wittlsbach's eccentricity!  He was trying to reach out to his mother before he commited suicide but she rejected him.  So sisi felt guilty for the rest of her life.  Sisi always blamed her mother-in-law taking her son away but when Sophie died, he was still quiet young.  His father wasn't particularily closed to him either.  You can imagine how bad Rudolph felt.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 21, 2004, 05:41:22 PM
Brian that is so interesting about the death mask!  It is difficult to say whether that image is of the cast itself or the inside of the cast....Having had my face cast, I have to admit that the end result is invariably eerie.  I have kept my face cast in a box at work; I keep meaning to turn it into a garden ornament, like a gargoyle or something (heck, I must be ugly!)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 21, 2004, 05:54:44 PM
I c, so is the one with her profile also in FJ's study?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pushkina on December 22, 2004, 12:23:22 AM
hamann says explicitly that sisi never allowed photographs of her in her later life; that the best photographers could do was to recycle her young head onto a more currently attired body.

all my books are in storage now but if silja is still on this trhead, perhaps she could dig up the reference.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 22, 2004, 04:12:11 AM
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hamann says explicitly that sisi never allowed photographs of her in her later life; that the best photographers could do was to recycle her young head onto a more currently attired body.

all my books are in storage now but if silja is still on this trhead, perhaps she could dig up the reference.


I suppose this fits in with her obsessive attitude to her face and figure....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 22, 2004, 07:24:13 AM
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I suppose this fits in with her obsessive attitude to her face and figure....


Yes, Joan Haslip's book also mentioned that.  When she is photographed, she either had a veil on or had her fan out to cover her face up.  All the paintings done later on were based on photographs taken when she was in her late 20s, early 30s.  

In her later life, she also had skin problems.  I remembered from the Haslip book, FJ told Katherina Schratt that Sisi had rashes and he told Schratt not to be horrified when she visits Sisi.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on December 22, 2004, 07:34:58 AM
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In her later life, she also had skin problems


What do we think these skin problems were?  Stress related conditions such as psoriasis or eczema?  Or a result of poor nutrition?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on December 22, 2004, 09:05:11 AM
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Crazy_wing, the second portrait of Elisabeth (face on, with loose hair) originally hung in Franz Josef's study.  It hadn't occurred to me that anyone who had been granted a private audience would see this very intimate image of the Empress; I'm a little surprised that FJ would permit this....


The tour guide in the Hofburg told us this  :).  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on December 22, 2004, 09:17:59 AM
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hamann says explicitly that sisi never allowed photographs of her in her later life; that the best photographers could do was to recycle her young head onto a more currently attired body.

all my books are in storage now but if silja is still on this trhead, perhaps she could dig up the reference.


Yes, that's what I have read. Above I already quoted from Hamann's Portraits of an Empress. IN the foreword she also writes: "Nobody outside the closest members of the family could observe the face of the ageing Elisabeth. Artists and illustrators made their own "legend"-like pictures of her . . .  The photographers depended more and more on the old available photos of the young Sisi in order to make the portraits of the forty to fifty  year old woman more acceptable."

I can only repeat that I have my doubts over that alleged photo from later life. Especially as it bears no resemblance to that snapshot from the 1890s.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 22, 2004, 07:20:11 PM
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What do we think these skin problems were?  Stress related conditions such as psoriasis or eczema?  Or a result of poor nutrition?


I don't quite remember what caused it.  I don't have the books with me now so i can't check it out now.   But you are probably right that it is caused by both poor nutrition and stress.  

The skin problems was not mentioned in joan haslip's book.  I made a mistake.  I just realized it is in "Twilight of the Habsburgs: The Life and Times of Emperor Francis Joseph" by Alan Palmer.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on December 22, 2004, 07:21:00 PM
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Amazing, so that is the dress!  Is this a stupid question -what colour is it?


It is probably black.  She never wore any other colors again after the death of her son.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on December 23, 2004, 03:21:05 PM
Has anyone got pics of the Kaiservilla at Bad Ischl?
I mean interior photos, especially of the imperial app. but also of the other rooms. I tried to look for them, but they seems to be very rare.

Thanks for the help.

p.s.

I'd need to find a german person, who could help me to translate the legend in a plan I found (Bad Ischl).

Many thanks
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Joanna on December 28, 2004, 10:06:56 PM
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Has anyone got pics of the Kaiservilla at Bad Ischl? I mean interior photos, especially of the imperial app. but also of the other rooms. I tried to look for them, but they seems to be very rare.


Hi Gleb

I have photos of FJ's rooms that I can scan and email to you. The Archduke does not allow interior photography but allowed me to take one from FJ's study balcony. His suite is in the right wing on the second floor at the rear with one window of his study facing the ischl and the other the path to the Marmorschlossl. Next to his study is FJ's bedroom which is very small with one window also facing the path.

Joanna
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 05, 2005, 07:24:50 AM
Just wanted to suggest you not to read Petacco's books, becouse as you said they are very inaccurate and full of gossips. Consider that I am italian.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 05, 2005, 07:26:06 AM
Does anyone has pics of Godollo castle?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 05, 2005, 02:49:39 PM
Her sisters have a look of Sissi but cannot compare really in the beauty department!
And if Gleb says that Petacco's books are full of inaccuracies then that is good enough for me....Gleb do you have any pictures of Godollo at all?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on January 05, 2005, 03:47:58 PM
Hi Martyn,

If you want to see pictures of Gödöllö, go to the following web site:

http://www.kiralyikastely.hu/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 05, 2005, 03:51:31 PM
OH thank you Silja, too kind.  I'm sure that I have seen a a picture of the facade ages ago; is it a baroque structure?
I did a quick google search on it but didn't have time to look very far. thanks so much for the link - I'm sure that Gleb will be grateful too.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on January 05, 2005, 04:06:32 PM
Here's another interesting link

http://www.gau.hu/godollo/welcome.html
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 05, 2005, 06:19:37 PM
Now you are spoiling me!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 13, 2005, 09:54:12 AM
Thanks Gleb
Thank you for that information I seem to recall that part about them living at the Palazzo Farnese.  I shall try to find out more about her......
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 13, 2005, 01:46:16 PM
I haven't finished yet....

As many konw the Royal marriage hadn't been consumated yet. The whole court knew about this
(Re Francesco II suffered from a relatively common male disease the phimosis, which is easily
to correct in a surgical way, but he did not want).
Anyway Maria understood she was pregnant and so told her husband she had to leave for Bayern
in order to visit her parents and  have a rest.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 13, 2005, 01:48:20 PM
she spent many times in Bayern and gave birth to a child in Augsburg 1862
(the child was given to the real father).
After this she came back to Rome, told everything to the King, who forgave her even becouse
he was partially guilty. He was operated and in 1869 she gave birth to another child a female one,
bur she died early.....
In 1870 Rome became part of the Sabaudo Regno and even if King Vittorio Emanuele gave them the
permission to live there, they leaved and went to live in Paris, and in Bayern and started
spending long far from themselves.....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 13, 2005, 07:48:09 PM
Quote
As many konw the Royal marriage hadn't been consumated yet. The whole court knew about this (Re Francesco II suffered from a relatively common male disease the phimosis...)



that wasn't the only reason, was it?  <wink-wink, nudge-nudge>

(i mean, he was a homosexual, wasn't he?)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 14, 2005, 03:29:30 AM
Hi Brian,

In Italy we call Maria the two ways (Regina di Napoli and Regina del Regno delle Due Sicilie).
They are both exact. Becouse The Bourbons of Naples were Kings of Naples, and of Sicily. For example King Ferdinando (the one who married the daughter of Empress Maria Theresa von Habsburg) was Ferdinando IV of Naples and Ferdinando III of Sicily.
But after 1816 He became simply Ferdinando I delle Due (two) Sicilie. I am italian, but do not ask me why they said two Sicilies, even if, as you all know, Sicily is one island...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 14, 2005, 03:31:01 AM
It is all a bit too complicated but sounds very Italian...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 14, 2005, 03:34:05 AM
As far as I konw King Francesco (also called Franceschiello = little Francesco) was not homosexual, but anyway it is, at least, strange that he liked spending his nights reading the Holy Bible.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 14, 2005, 05:13:37 AM
Great pictures Brian, as usual.  Those Wittelsbach sisters were beautiful.  It would seem that they both had a penchant for black velvet and riding habits (aren't they referred to as being 'en Amazone'?)
I can't remember what the exact deal was with her husband; I do recall though that, when the occasion demanded, she displayed great courage and strength of purpose.  Phimosis, apparently, was the obstacle that had prevented Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette form consummating their marriage in the early days.....
It would be great to know a little more of their life in exile
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Lisa on January 16, 2005, 08:45:19 AM
Alix and Sissi in 1896 when the tsar and tsaritsa visited Austria(I know its quite small, but it's an historical document! ;))
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1896avecalix2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1896AVECALIX.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Lisa on January 16, 2005, 08:50:16 AM
1869 by Székely (bertan)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1869Szkelybertan.jpg)

1899 by LASZLO
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/LAZLO1899reinedehongrie.jpg)

1860's by Eduard KAISER
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1860seduardkaiser.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on January 16, 2005, 09:21:02 AM
Marie was nicknamed "Heroin of Gaeta" because of her courageous behaviour during the siege of the Gaeta fortress where she and her husband had fled after their neapolitan throne had been overthrown by Garibaldi's troops. The young queen became the soul of the resistance to the enemy, encouraging her husband's soldiers during the battle and nursing the wounded men under bullets and bombs. When the opposing forces asked her for the location of her home in Gaeta so as not to drop bombs on it she staunchly refused to give it. However Gaeta was lost and the now ex-royal couple took refuge in Rome where Marie had a love affair with a young belgian count, Armand de Lawayss. She secretely gave birth to an illegitimate daughter by Armand, called Daisy, in the Ursulines Convent in Augsburg in 1862. Her daughter by King Francesco, Cristina-Pia, died in Rome, aged only 3 or 4 months. For all I know, King Francesco was not homosexual, only a shy and extremely religious man, totally inhibited. He suffered from a phimosis which prevented sexual relationships.
Marie and Francesco's first years of marriage had been somewhat unhappy but later they reached some kind of understanding. They often visited her bavarian relatives in Germany but mostly lived in France (Paris & nearby Saint Mandé) and England where the young queen loved to hunt. It is actually she who invited her sister Elisabeth to join in and the empress so enjoyed herself that she made several others trips to England during the following years (much to Kaiser Franz Josef's distress and to the Vienna population's anger). However on one of these occasion Marie behaved unfairly toward her elder sister, spreading rumours about a love affair between the empress and Bay Middleton, en english horseman. She even told Kronprinz Rudolf, Sisi's son, about it which caused a row and estranged the 2 women.
Marie never forgave the House of Savoy for "stealing" her throne and is said to have plotted against them. She strongly opposed the projected marriage between her grand-niece princess Marie-José of Belgium and the heir to the italian throne Umberto, telling the young girl that if she married him, she would bitterly regret it and never be happy.
She spent her last years with her sister Mathilde in Munich where she died in 1925.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 17, 2005, 08:16:59 AM
Maybe it is already known but I suggest a book by Erika Bestenreiner "Sisi und ihre geschwister". It is a book about Sissi, but has a chapter also on all the brothers and sisters (or even more then one if they are more interesting).
I think this book has been translated even in english, surely in french.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on January 17, 2005, 11:39:07 AM
I was quite disappointed with Sisi und ihre Geschwister. It doesn't contain anything new and  gives only brief biographies of some of Sisi's brothers and sisters. It may be a good introduction for someone entirely new to the subject, but for those more familiar with it it is simply trite. I didn't like the author's style either.

Bestenreiner's new book on Franz Ferdinand and Sophie Chotek has recently come out in Germany but after the disappointment with the former I don't care to get this one.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on January 17, 2005, 11:54:43 AM
Sisi u. ihre Geschwister has been translated in French under the title Valse tragique en Bavière. I have the book but own I did not like it much. It is quite basic, does not tell much and contains no pics at all. Though I agree with Silja in thinking that it might be good for "beginners".
Bestenreiner also wrote a bio of the scandalous Luise of Tuscany (I have not read it so I cannot tell if it is worth) which is only available in German. I did not know about her book about Franz Ferdinand und Sophie, thanks for the info Silja ! but I think I am going to follow your lead and not buy it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 17, 2005, 03:35:02 PM
Quote
Alix and Sissi in 1896 when the tsar and tsaritsa visited Austria(I know its quite small, but it's an historical document! ;))
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1896avecalix2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1896AVECALIX.jpg)




the following is an excerpt from THE MARTYRDOM OF AN EMPRESS, and refers to a state ball given at the Hofburg on the occasion of the visit of the new tsar & tsarina (Nicky & Alix) to Vienna:
 
 "all eyes were immediately turned upon the lovely austrian sovereign....her toilette was a vision of severe elegance, chic, and perfection of taste.
  the endless fan-shaped train and bodice were of softest, most shimmering black-velvet, veiled with black-silk gauze, embroidered with pearl-hearted black violets.     on her proud head sparkled a diadem of black pearls & black diamonds, whence fell to the very hem of the court mantle a transparent veil of black gauze powdered with jet. around the shapely marmorean neck hung row after row of softly gleaming black pearls interspersed with brilliants, and she carried in her hand a sheath of russian and neopolitan violets, tied with jet-embroidered black streamers, to which was fastened an enormous black marabout fan adorned with a crown of diamonds.    on her left shoulder was attached the stern-kreuz decoration, also in diamonds."
 
 
 
     paints a wonderfully vivid picture, doesn't it?
 
btw, THE MARTYRDOM  OF AN EMPRESS is a very odd book, to say the least.    no author is listed.....anywhere.     at all.
 
however, there is an introduction --- and one may infer from that (well, sort of), that a lady by the name of Elizabeth Clare Prophet (born: elizabeth clare wulf) was the author.     but nowhere on any of the pages does she say so.    what she does say, however, is that she's the reincarnation of the empress Elisabeth of Austria!
 
regardless, if you can get past that, it's not a bad book.   written in (or about) 1981, it contains more descriptive passages than most of the biographies out there.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 17, 2005, 03:44:40 PM
Brian- if I may ask, you must really like Sissi?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on January 17, 2005, 07:29:23 PM
A few years ago, I found in a magazine an illustration of Alix & Nicky's visit to Vienna. It represents the 2 imperial couples at a dinner party at the Hofburg palace. Kaiser Franz Josef is drinking to his guests' health who seem to be listening to him. Kaiserin Elisabeth is standing next to Alix but she looks as if she was standing apart. She is dressed all in black and is gazing mournfully at God knows what with sad eyes. I wonder whether it was drawn after a picture or wether it is pure fancy.
Aleksandr III and Maria Feodorovna also visited their Austrian counterparts in Kremsier. On this occasion, Elisabeth compared, rather unfairly, in one of her poems MF to a small monkey making low curtseys.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 17, 2005, 07:39:28 PM
Quote
Brian- if I may ask, you must really like Sissi?




yep.   i sure do.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gem_10 on January 18, 2005, 07:53:28 AM
Quote
Hi Lunarmaiden !

Concerning Sophie-Charlotte, if you can read French, I recommand the excellent bio by Dominique Paoli La Duchesse d'Alençon - Sophie-Charlotte, Soeur de Sissi.

Briefly this is what I can tell you :
Sophie was born in Munich in 1847. At the age of 20, she became engaged to her cousin, King Ludwig II of Bavaria, but he kept her waiting and waiting and finally jilted her. Sophie was not in love with Ludwig (she had a brief flirtation with a dashing young photographer from Munich called Edgar Hanfstaengl during her engagement) and probably felt relieved.
She finally married a French prince, Ferdinand of Orléans, duke of Alençon (a grandson of King Louis-Philippe) with whom she had 2 children Louise and Emmanuel. The young couple spent their first year of marriage in England where the French royal family lived in exile but very soon Sophie, who felt desperately homesick, fell ill. They had to go back to Germany and afterwards divided their time between Bavaria, Austria and France.
Her married life with Ferdinand was rather chaotic and in middle-age she had a love affair with a German gynecologist, Dr Glaser, with whom she planned to elope. When this was discovered, she was sent to spend some time in an asylum in Germany.
Like most of her siblings, Sophie was shy, moody and introspective. She was the most religious of the sisters and mysticism attracted her to the point that she became member a secular order, le Tiers-Ordre, under the same of "soeur Marie-Madeleine du Tiers-Ordre et de la Pénitence".
She died a heroic but dreadful death in Paris in 1897 (only a year before her sister Elisabeth) during the fire of a charity bazar. Her last words were : "Let all of you go first, I will be the last to leave".

I am very sorry I have no scanner for I have many lovely pics of Sophie. Hope that helps anyway.

I have posted the url of a good site dedicated to Sophie somewhere on this thread.



Thank you very much for the infos Agneschen! Unfortunately for me, I cannot read French.  :-[ By the way, what happened to Edgar after Sophie married the duke of Alencon? In one website (it is originally German and it is roughly translated into English), I read that Edgar was also in that bazaar where Sophie died and that she died in his arms. Could anyone tell me how accurate is this?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on January 18, 2005, 01:16:13 PM
This story about Sophie's dying in Edgar's arms is pure fancy Lunarmaiden. Their flirtation did not last long and she broke off with him when she was still engaged to King Ludwig II. I do not know what Edgar's life was, only that he married and had a daughter, Erna. Sophie's letters to him have been published by Heinz Gebhardt under the title König Ludwig II u. seine verbrannte Braut : unveröffentliche Liebesbriefe Prinzessin Sophies an Edgar Hanfstaengl. Munich : W. Ludwig, 1986. I do not own that book but maybe someone does on the forum. Some of the letters appear in the Paoli bio. Tell me if you wish me to translate them in English and post them.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on January 18, 2005, 01:47:45 PM
It's odd how there have been comparisons between Elisabeth of Austria and Diana of Wales, when an equally deserving comparison could be Elizabeth and Alexandra, two women brought to the highest echelons of court life, and both utterly unprepared for the lives that awaited them, and both paying too high of a price ultimately for the fame they couldn't handle.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on January 18, 2005, 05:11:04 PM
Quote
A few years ago, I found in a magazine an illustration of Alix & Nicky's visit to Vienna. It represents the 2 imperial couples at a dinner party at the Hofburg palace. Kaiser Franz Josef is drinking to his guests' health who seem to be listening to him. Kaiserin Elisabeth is standing next to Alix but she looks as if she was standing apart. She is dressed all in black and is gazing mournfully at God knows what with sad eyes.


Aleksandr III and Maria Feodorovna also visited their Austrian counterparts in Kremsier. On this occasion, Elisabeth compared, rather unfairly, in one of her poems MF to a small monkey making low curtseys.


You can also find this drawing in Brigitte Hamann's Elisabeth-Portraits of an Empress.


In her poem she compared the entire family to monkeys  ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gleb on January 19, 2005, 02:44:14 PM
Just wanted to say I agree with Agneschen: Bestenreiner's book is not accurate, but I suggested it for those people who do not konw anything about Wittelsbachs, I mean it is not a "bad" book to begin with..
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 20, 2005, 05:20:32 PM
Quote
It's odd how there have been comparisons between Elisabeth of Austria and Diana of Wales, when an equally deserving comparison could be Elizabeth and Alexandra, two women brought to the highest echelons of court life, and both utterly unprepared for the lives that awaited them, and both paying too high of a price ultimately for the fame they couldn't handle.


Well that's an opinion I suppose.  Without wishing to digress too much, I'm not sure that I agree with you about Diana not being able to handle fame...Rather that she didn't take kindly to having a camera shoved in her face at every available opportunity.  I rather think that she used her fame very well, to help causes that would not have merited a a mention in the World press if she hadn't espoused them, and as a result, achieved much that was good.  I don't know that one can say the same of Elisabeth, whose aims and motivations remained primarily ones of self-interest....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on January 21, 2005, 03:07:05 PM
Quote

Well that's an opinion I suppose.  Without wishing to digress too much, I'm not sure that I agree with you about Diana not being able to handle fame...Rather that she didn't take kindly to having a camera shoved in her face at every available opportunity.  I rather think that she used her fame very well, to help causes that would not have merited a a mention in the World press if she hadn't espoused them, and as a result, achieved much that was good.  I don't know that one can say the same of Elisabeth, whose aims and motivations remained primarily ones of self-interest....


I quite agree. I think there's practically no similarity between the two women. The only one perhaps that both didn't fit in the family they were supposed to represent.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 22, 2005, 03:42:28 AM
Quote

I quite agree. I think there's practically no similarity between the two women. The only one perhaps that both didn't fit in the family they were supposed to represent.


Absolutely Silja.  That seems to me just about their only shared quality, except perhaps that of style icon.....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 09, 2005, 10:47:31 PM
"...I think there's practically no similarity between the two women. The only one perhaps that both didn't fit in the family they were supposed to represent."

Good one!

I was wondering, returnig to the topic about tsarina Alexandra visiting Sissi; are there any pictures that shows them together???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Guinastasia on April 13, 2005, 01:59:18 PM
What about the children of the Emperor Franz Josef of Austria?

-Archduchess Sophie (1855-1857)

-Archduchess Gisela (1856-1932)

-Archduke Rudolf, Crown Prince (1858-1889)

-Archduchess Marie Valerie (1868-1924)

What were their relations like with their parents-especially Gisela and Marie Valerie?  We always hear about Rudolf, and how he was at odds with his parents.  I do know that Gisela and her mother were never close, because her grandmother kept them apart and that Marie Valerie was Sissi's favorite child.

It almost mirrors Queen Marie of Roumania's relationship with her three eldest (Elisabeta and Carol weren't close with their mother, whereas Mignon was, along with the others).  But was Gisela another brat like Elisabeta?  



ETA because I screwed up the title!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: bluetoria on April 13, 2005, 02:07:54 PM
It seems to me that Gisela was just really unfortunate because Sissi paid her so little attention devoted her attention totally to Marie Valerie.
Perhaps her disregard for her elder children was partly because, as Paleologue said, she loathed "the whole business of childbearing" & her marital experienceshad come as quite a shock to her. Also, since the elder children had been largely taken from her care, she had been unable to bond with them.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on April 13, 2005, 04:27:57 PM
Valerie was not only Sisi's favourite child. The empress was quite infatuated with her and sort of overprotective at times. Valerie herself thought it too much sometimes.
And although Elisabeth deliberately raised her as a Hungarian, speaking only Hungarian with her, she achieved precisely the opposite. Valerie was never too fond of Hungary and she always begged her father to be allowed to speak German with him.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Chris_H on April 13, 2005, 07:06:20 PM
Valerie was definately her mother's favorite child, she even looks like Sissi (except for the mouth), however if you read Reluctant Empress by Brigitte Hamann, Valerie always feels sorry for her father, Franz Josef.  It would be interesting to read what Gisela thought.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on April 13, 2005, 11:28:52 PM
Quote
It seems to me that Gisela was just really unfortunate because Sissi paid her so little attention devoted her attention totally to Marie Valerie.
Perhaps her disregard for her elder children was partly because, as Paleologue said, she loathed "the whole business of childbearing" & her marital experienceshad come as quite a shock to her. Also, since the elder children had been largely taken from her care, she had been unable to bond with them.

They were just teenagers when their grandma died.  Indeed, sissi felt they weren't really her children since they were taken away from her...but after the death of Sophie, she didn't really take more care of her elder children.  

None of her daughters really inherit her mother's beauty.  However, it was said that Valerie got lovely hair, just like her mother.  

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on April 13, 2005, 11:33:22 PM
Quote
It almost mirrors Queen Marie of Roumania's relationship with her three eldest (Elisabeta and Carol weren't close with their mother, whereas Mignon was, along with the others).  But was Gisela another brat like Elisabeta?  


As far as I know, she was a good child.  She married when she was quite young...16 to Leopold of Bavaria, who was just a minor prince at the time of their marriage.  She had a happy marriage.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 14, 2005, 12:47:00 PM
I would like to find out more about little Princess Sophie, the first child. I wonder if there are any things of her still preserved, christening gown, etc.?

There is a lovely book specifically on the Empress and her daughters by Martha Schad with many photographs
of them all. "Kaiserin Elisabeth und ihre Töchter" Mueller Verlag, 1997. :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: tea_rose on April 17, 2005, 07:23:08 PM
  I always felt for Gisela in this scenario--her father catered to Sissi and Sissi to herself and Valerie. Rudolf had a temperament much like Sissi's so he found himself to be an object of absorption, it seems.

 But-if Gisela was happy in later life that was probably her recompense. Neither Sissi nor Rudolf were portraits of contentment.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on April 17, 2005, 11:46:51 PM
Quote
 I always felt for Gisela in this scenario--her father catered to Sissi and Sissi to herself and Valerie. Rudolf had a temperament much like Sissi's so he found himself to be an object of absorption, it seems.

  But-if Gisela was happy in later life that was probably her recompense. Neither Sissi nor Rudolf were portraits of contentment.


Very true.  I think Gisela must have a strong character.  Her father liked Gisela though rite?  I mean his relationship with his son wasn't that good so I assume he would be closer to Gisela...  Also, i guess she had to thank her grandmother Sophie too.  She was lucky.  Her grandma died when she was around 16 (she married at 16 i think).  But Rudolf was younger and nobody stepped in to fill the void.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on April 18, 2005, 02:20:00 PM
Rudolf and Gisela had been brought up together as children and were very close. His sister's marriage to Leopold of Bavaria came as a shock to him. The whole family accompanied the young bride and groom to the station on the day of their leaving and Rudolf is said to have cried a lot and quite openly on this occasion.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on April 18, 2005, 05:38:08 PM
Marie Wallersee was an acknowledged beauty but, most unfortunately, she WAS scheming and disliked by many people at court. Empress Elisabeth's lady-in-waiting, countess Festetics, mistrusted her from the first. Young archduchess Marie-Valerie seems also to have disliked her.
Marie and Georg Larisch had 4 children, Franz-Josef, Marie-Valerie, Marie-Henriette and Georg-Heinrich, but the younger ones were rumoured to have been fathered by Heinrich Baltazzi (Mary Vetsera's uncle) who was her lover.
Georg and Marie had a divorce. She remarried twice, first to the Bavarian singer Otto Brucks and then to an American farmer. She wrote several books about the Austrian imperial court later in life but they are full of lies and slanders.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 18, 2005, 10:24:41 PM
Marie Louise Elizabeth Mendel was born February 24, 1858 at Augsburg, Bavaria. The illegitimate first daughter of actress Henriette Mendel, a commoner, and Ludwig Wilhelm, Duke in Bavaria (grandson of the king). On March 9, 1859, Ludwig renounced his rights as first-born son, lowering his standing in society and reducing his stipend. On May 9  the couple had a 2nd child, a son, Karl Emanuel Mendel. Henriette was created the Baroness of Wallersee on May 19 and on 28 May the couple were married and the titles of Baron & Baroness of Wallersee were bestowed on them. Karl died a few months later.

She describes a childhood were she received a very throrough education--much more so than her paternal aunts did. She managed to have a rather free, simple upbringing (which they had had) as well where there wasn't a lot of formality.As a child Marie looked very 'girly' with her long blonde hair but was rather tomboyish and learned fencing and horseback riding.

She later wrote of a time when at age 14 wearing a black silk dress and hob-nailed mountain boots she was formally presented to her aunt Sissi. Two years later Marie went to live with her aunt since Sissi had taken a liking to her niece. Marie was close to her aunt and became rather a confidante--she even emulated Sissi's hairstyles for most of her life. Marie was also the same age as her cousin, Archduke Rudolph, and this would prove crucial in years to come.

Marie received several proposals from age 16, including one from Count Otto Bismark's son. In 1877, at age of 19, Marie married Georg, Count Larisch von Moennich. Marie was miserable in this marriage and wrote that she began to think that ending it all was her only option and even tried (halfheartedly) twice to kill herself. During their marriage the couple resided in Silesia and later in Bohemia. She and the Count would winter in Mentone on the French Rivieria. The two would  eventually divorce in 1896 (she would received alimony but it was eventually rendered worthless in the post-war inflationary period).

The Countess remarried the next year to Otto Brucks a singer at the Bavarian Court. She describes finding deep contentment, affection and understanding in this marriage. She now resided primarily in Munich and summered in Rottach-Egern (54 km south of Munich). She was widowed in 1917. Seven years later, in 1924, she married a 3rd time. This was in Elizabeth, New Jersey (where my Dad was born!) to William Meyers. Marie wrote that this was a marriage of convenience. They were business partners and the marriage allowed her to extend her visa in the US. In her memoirs Secrets of a Royal House, she does not even mention Meyers by name, using instead the alias 'Mr. Fleming' (he also doesn't appear even in the index). They were divorced in 1928.

Between the ages of 20 and 42 Marie gave birth to 6 children. The first 5 were fathered by Count Larisch while the last was from her 2nd marriage. The children were:  

Franz-Joseph (1878-1937) who became an oceanographer; Marie Valerie (1879-1907) served as a medical missionary in Africa; Marie (Mary)(1884-1907) ;
Heinrich (1886-1909) committed suicide (supposedly distraught about his mother's role in the Mayerling tragedy); Karl (1894-1929) was never healthy and died of tuberculosis; and Otto Brucks, Jr. (1899-1977) followed in his father's footsteps and was a musician.

Marie didn't write much about her children or her last 2 husbands in her books. Since she was very unflattering about Count Larish perhaps they got off lightly. In 1889 her cousin Rudolph was found dead at Mayerling along with the body of Marie (Mary) Vetsera, a baroness who was his mistress.  Even Marie admitted that she had been acting as a go-between for the couple although she'd write that she was occasionally their dupe and other times that her 'good nature' was taken advantage of by the couple. When her part came out she suffered the wrath of the Imperial family and was forced to leave the Court in disgrace her name blackened throughout the courts of Europe.

During WWI the Countess underwent 6 months of training and served as a Red Cross supervisor of hospital trains. Her son Otto served and was medically discharged in 1917 after being gassed. Before the war she had been living in Metz, in Alsace, and that city had been given to France in the peace settlements. Thus she lost all her possessions and she returned to Munich in Bavaria. At the time, Munich was in a state of upheaval and was under control of the socialists. She showed some grit when she had to show her papers identifying her as a member of the Wittelsbach family to an official. She was able to get a "Red passport" which didn't list her titles and described her merely as "Marie Wallersee, medical assistant and nurse." She was then able to secure a temporary position as a physician's assistant. Nevertheless it was a dangerous time in Munich (she described the city as being in the revolutionary's 'bloody claw') and she recorded  shootings and beatings on the street and of a terrible day-to-day struggle for survival.

The Countess left Munich for Berlin but had less luck with employment there. She gained a job as a servant, cooking and washing dishes, laundry and floors for which she was paid much less than the legal wage. Her son Otto was finally able to gather enough money to bring her back to Munich. Eventually, after a news story about her appeared in the US papers she got an invitation to manage a sanitarium in the US. This was run by William Meyers who she would later marry.  The 2 lived in Florida for awhile but they eventually moved back north. For awhile the Countess lived in "very modest lodgings on the top floor, rear of a third-rate sailors' boarding house" in Hoboken, New Jersey.

In Secrets of A Royal House (1936) she wrote that she was "back in [her] native Bavaria again, dwelling in the shadow of the very convent where [she] was born ..." so it seems that she  returned to Ausburg in 1928, the year she divorced Meyers. Her eldest son inherited his father's title that same year and he may have received property that was left. Countess Larisch died on July 4, 1940 in Augsburg. Only her eldest son left any issue (most of whom seem to have settled in the US).

She also had a sister Helene who married Friedrich Christian of Schaumburg-Lippe. She was his 3rd wife.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: bluetoria on April 19, 2005, 03:59:52 AM
Well it was certainly a very varied life! To go from being in the company of the Empress of Austria to becoming a servant & living in a sailors' boarding house ( ::) )!

I read that her first wedding was magnificent but after that her husband was always short of money & it was boredom which drove her to become involved with Rudolph & Mary Vetsera. What other reason could she possibly have had for becoming involved?
It seems unfortunate that her role in the whole affair came back on her so badly - after all she couldn't possibly have foreseen the consequences.

(Maybe Rudolph was just incredibily charismatic. I also read of some poor girl who became so obsessed with him that she stood day after day in the street just watching for him to pass...and eventually she caught a chill & died. Rudolph was so sorry for her when he heard about it - I think he didn't have a clue that she had 'loved' him! (Romantic??  :-/ - kind of!)

Sorry for repeatedly returning to 'The Waste Land' but it is quite a fascinating connection. T.S. Eliot met the Countess & the lines (which I quoted earlier) are said to be the exact words she spoke to him. He included her in the poem (which is about the emptiness of so many things - the destruction after war - people losing their way etc. etc.) because he considered her to have lived through an emotional 'Waste Land.'

This is how she described her suicide attempts:

"I finally reasoned myself into a state of mind where I became convinced that life had nothing more to offer and that an early end would not only be welcome, but the only solution open to me. And so I made two childish attempts at suicide by swallowing an overdose of some sleeping potion and by trying to smoke myself to death. The only results, however, were that from the one I contracted a condition for which the German terminus technicus is generally known all over the world, as Katzenjammer; from the other, I acquired a lifelong addiction to Turkish cigarettes."

I can't imagine it is possible to smoke yourself to death (not in one sitting anyway!!)
Maybe the fact that she wrote, "life had nothing more to offer" suggests a rather self-absorbed attitude - perhaps she thought only of herself.  
All the same it is impossible not to feel some pity for her for the emptiness of her life. The way that this is expressed through the poem, is very striking (to me anyway  :-/ ) - the memories of an almost idyllic world followed by the emotional waste land:
"I read...and go south for the winter...." as though there is absolutely nothing left to hold on to, just 'going through the motions.'  :(

It's all very interesting  :)

Thank you very much for all the information, grandduchessella.  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Ildiko on April 25, 2005, 11:50:55 AM
Quote
I was quite disappointed with Sisi und ihre Geschwister. It doesn't contain anything new and  gives only brief biographies of some of Sisi's brothers and sisters. It may be a good introduction for someone entirely new to the subject, but for those more familiar with it it is simply trite. I didn't like the author's style either.

Bestenreiner's new book on Franz Ferdinand and Sophie Chotek has recently come out in Germany but after the disappointment with the former I don't care to get this one.


You're completly right. The author only writes what is already known from other books and also mentions persons far too much who where actually no siblings of Sisi (like Marie Wallersee).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on April 25, 2005, 01:01:38 PM
Quote

The author also mentions persons far too much who where actually no siblings of Sisi (like Marie Wallersee).


Yes, that's what I thought as well.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: allanraymond on May 28, 2005, 06:50:55 AM
grandduchessella

Thank you for the very interesting article.

I'm always ready to be corrected but I didn't realise Marie had a sister Helene who married Friedrich Christian of Schaumburg-Lippe.

My understanding is that Marie and Helen weren't related but did have something in common.

Marie's father Prince Ludwig in Bavaria married secondly Barbara Antonie Barth. Helen is in fact the daughter of Barbara Antonie Barth and her second husband Maximilian Mayr.

Allan Raymond


Quote
Marie Louise Elizabeth Mendel was born February 24, 1858 at Augsburg, Bavaria. The illegitimate first daughter of actress Henriette Mendel, a commoner, and Ludwig Wilhelm, Duke in Bavaria (grandson of the king). On March 9, 1859, Ludwig renounced his rights as first-born son, lowering his standing in society and reducing his stipend. On May 9  the couple had a 2nd child, a son, Karl Emanuel Mendel. Henriette was created the Baroness of Wallersee on May 19 and on 28 May the couple were married and the titles of Baron & Baroness of Wallersee were bestowed on them. Karl died a few months later.

snipped..


She also had a sister Helene who married Friedrich Christian of Schaumburg-Lippe. She was his 3rd wife.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 28, 2005, 09:11:33 AM
I would certainly bow to your knowledge Allan--you are the genealogy expert.  :)  Perhaps in my reading of various articles I had gathered information from assumed she was a sibling when she was a step-sibling instead. I can't remember which one might have had this particular bit of information but some of the sites were in German so it also could've been my poor translation.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 28, 2005, 09:39:59 PM
Well it sounds like Elizabeth inherited some of the worst tendencies of Rudolf, Stephanie and Sisi.  :-/

What an unhealthy relationship with your children to threaten to shoot them rather than let their father have them. And then to basically turn her back on them as they got older--sounds very narcissistic. While they were young and could adore her she had a use for them, as they got older and wanted lives of their own they were disposable. She sounds like a rather unpleasant person.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gem_10 on August 18, 2005, 09:59:03 AM
Hi everyone! We all know that the Empress Elisabeth had anorexia nervosa but we don't exactly know how she got this disorder. I have a rather possible explanation how she got this.

Franz Joseph had a veneral disease (syphilis if i'm not mistaken), and it is possible that the empress used certain drugs so that she will not acquire the disease from her husband or perhaps, if she already had it, to treat the disease. Some drugs, like tetracycline, have side effects and one of its side effects is anorexia. But i'm not quite sure if tetracycline was the drug she used. Perhaps, it was another drug that also causes anorexia.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on August 18, 2005, 02:26:23 PM
Quote
Hi everyone! We all know that the Empress Elisabeth had anorexia nervosa but we don't exactly know how she got this disorder. I have a rather possible explanation how she got this.

Franz Joseph had a veneral disease (syphilis if i'm not mistaken), and it is possible that the empress used certain drugs so that she will not acquire the disease from her husband or perhaps, if she already had it, to treat the disease. Some drugs, like tetracycline, have side effects and one of its side effects is anorexia. But i'm not quite sure if tetracycline was the drug she used. Perhaps, it was another drug that also causes anorexia.



But anorexia has psychological causes, has it not? And I think that also in Elisabeth's case her psyche was the main reason.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gem_10 on August 18, 2005, 11:18:07 PM
yes. that is also possible... ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on August 19, 2005, 11:28:32 AM
Another point: Elisabeth used her beauty (e.g. the slimness) as "force", politically (Hungary) and private (the change of Rudolf´s educator). And to keep this slimness, she ate very little. But of course, it was also a psychological problem.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on August 21, 2005, 12:22:42 AM
Quote
Another point: Elisabeth used her beauty (e.g. the slimness) as "force", politically (Hungary) and private (the change of Rudolf´s educator). And to keep this slimness, she ate very little. But of course, it was also a psychological problem.


Ai, she would only eat a few oranges, drink a glass or 2 of milk and meat juice a day!  Scary...

Sisi probably believed her beauty/slimness was the only thing she had control of.  

Well, the Austrian ministers also used her beauty as a political force too (hungary and italy).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on August 21, 2005, 07:11:47 AM
yeah, but there were also times when she ate very normal(e.g. she loved ice cream made of violets and she had an own confectioner. And when Franz Joseph had to go to Paris, she wanted him to buy special candies for her). So her anorexia wasn´t a "normal" one...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on September 27, 2005, 07:57:46 AM
I was really surprised finding this discussion board! (I made a Google search to find a reproduction of one of the two lost portraits of Elisabeth by Leopold Horovitz...)I'm writing my tesis on the representations of Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth, so if you've any questions in the future, just ask me! (I see people here discussing about pictures as well...  :) )

This portrait of the Emperor was painted by the Hungarian painter Fulop Laszlo (Pest, 1869 - London, 1937) in 1899. It was done from life and made by the commission of the Royal Hungarian Institute of Geology. The portrait of empress Elisabeth posted by Lisa on 16th January is also Laszlo's work from the same year. Naturally that's a posthumous portrait of the empress.
After the success of his first exhibition in London in 1907, Laszlo moved to London with his family and became a British citizen in 1914. Laszlo (as Philip Alexius de Laszlo) was one of the most successful portait-painter of his age. He also painted some portraits of King George V and Queen Mary, Edward VII, Emperor Wilhelm II, Mussollini, Theodore Roosevelt, the later King George and the later Queen Mum; the later Queen Elizabeth II as a child etc. etc. In 2004 there was a huge exhibition of his works at Christie's in London. For further information  go to

http://www.jssgallery.org/Other_Artists/Philip_Alexius_de_Laszlo/Philip_Alexius_de_Laszlo.htm
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Angie_H on October 07, 2005, 08:46:20 PM
Sorry, if I seem ignorant.   ::) I have always been interested in the Romanovs and QV & her family, but I thought I would branch out. I just checked out Haslips's biography of Elisabeth at the library, and started it this week.  I read that her father wrote stories, some fairy tales. Are any of his writings of fairy tales popular today? I mean like like the stories like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on October 08, 2005, 05:03:36 AM
no, they aren´t, not even in Bavaria. :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Emilia on October 14, 2005, 10:30:28 AM
Katharina Schratt was actually F.J. mistress. Elisabeth supported this relationship, but wrote very nasty things about Katharina, like her being a "fat angel" etc. Very nice!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 14, 2005, 11:32:28 AM
Katharina Schratt didn't look like Elisabeth at all !!!

No one really knows wether Katharina was Franz Joseph's mistress or not. But there are hints, of course. Yesterday I read a letter written by the Emperor and he ended: "Dein Dich innig liebender Franzjoseph" (Franzjoseph who loves you a lot)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on October 14, 2005, 08:16:42 PM
True, nobody knows if Schratt was really his mistress.  Some books say their relationships was more like father-daughter and good friends type.  

Sisi and FJ's daughter Marie Valerie was disgusted at her father's relationship w/ Schratt and her mother's support for the relationship.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: anabel on October 15, 2005, 06:00:22 AM
Some more of Katharina Schratt
(http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.encyclop.data.image.s/s363695a.jpg)

with Franz Joseph
(http://www.schratt.de/eltern/grafiken/kukf4.jpg)

(http://portrait.kaar.at/Oesterreich%20Kultur%2019.Jhd%20Teil%206/images/kathi_schratt.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: anabel on October 15, 2005, 06:08:16 AM
(http://project1.caryacademy.org/TurnofCentury/WnKlatsch/schratt2_revised.jpg)
Katharina Schratt was a cute young girl when she was introduced to the Emperor. She was an easy-going person, loved to talk about gossup, etc. Franz Joseph most likely did not have a sexual affair with her, he just felt very well when she was around. Katharina was very loyal to him and did not write any memoirs (she was offered much money for doing this!).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Angie_H on October 22, 2005, 10:52:53 PM
I've just finished reading Haslip's "Lonely Empress", the first book I've ever read about Elisabeth. I really don't know what to make of it, what my opinion is. My first thought is that Elisabeth would have benefited so much from today's medicine. Definately anorexic. After reading it, one of my first thoughts is that with all the complaints Minny had about Alexandra, she was lucky she didn't have a daughter-in-law like Elisabeth! Sophie in my opinion was not a controlling mother-in-law, just an exasperated one. It came across like Elisabeth wanted privacy but she was PO'd if not admired. She wanted some say in her children's upbringing, but once given, she couldn't be bothered, neglect the oldest ones, and totally smother Marie Valerie. Guilt trip her when she wants to grow up and find some to love and marry!  If she took more interest in her children she might have been able to help her son. I felt like Elisabeth supported Hungary only to get on Sophie's nerves. And poor Franz Joseph, a very loving husband, but that didn't seem to matter to her, even though he put up with so much from her. I don't know...I can't feel much sympathy for her, I feel like alot of the problems she had, she brought upon herself.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on October 23, 2005, 09:43:42 PM
I agree with what you said Angie.  Elisabeth looks charming but really not that great of a person I think.  She is unstable emotionally and has little sense of duty.  She cared very little about her elder children as well too.  Sophie died when Rudolf was still quite young (like 12 yrs old) and Sisi could've easilys stepped in at that point to take care of him but she didn't.  I think Rudolf tried to talk to Sisi about his problems but Sisi paid no attention to him at all...  

And her eldest daughter Sophie...  I think the doctors advised Sisi not to take the weak Sophie to Hungary but she insisted and hence, Sophie got sicked and died.  I think any caring mother would not have gone against doctors' recommendations.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on October 24, 2005, 03:28:47 AM
I think we shouldn´t (or can´t) judge Elisabeth for her actions, because her personality was extremly complex. Today, it is of course quite easy to say she could have done this, she could have done that. I am certainly not a fan of Elisabeth, but I think that in her case, you can´t just say right or wrong.
Maybe she could have helped Rudolf, maybe not. He had inherited her personality, completly (just compare with Victoria, the princess royal and her son Wilhelm, who also had the very same personality, but really didn´t get well along with each other either, to say the least!).
So I would say that you could not help either Elisabeth or Rudolf; they had personalities, which were fascinating but destructive, and it was impossible to help them.
BTW, also his father Franz Joseph could have helped him. Did he do it? Certainly not! He prefered critisising him, saying he was a bad hunter, a miserable soldier etc. Not very pedagogic, I would say.
And at the end of the day, you can´t make your parents responsable for everthing which goes wrong in your life!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: veu on October 24, 2005, 12:38:26 PM
We know that Sissi had a very complex personality, but... it is this that make her immortal!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on October 24, 2005, 03:46:28 PM
Quote
I think we shouldn´t (or can´t) judge Elisabeth for her actions, because her personality was extremly complex. Today, it is of course quite easy to say she could have done this, she could have done that. I am certainly not a fan of Elisabeth, but I think that in her case, you can´t just say right or wrong.
Maybe she could have helped Rudolf, maybe not. He had inherited her personality, completly (just compare with Victoria, the princess royal and her son Wilhelm, who also had the very same personality, but really didn´t get well along with each other either, to say the least!).
So I would say that you could not help either Elisabeth or Rudolf; they had personalities, which were fascinating but destructive, and it was impossible to help them.
BTW, also his father Franz Joseph could have helped him. Did he do it? Certainly not! He prefered critisising him, saying he was a bad hunter, a miserable soldier etc. Not very pedagogic, I would say.
And at the end of the day, you can´t make your parents responsable for everthing which goes wrong in your life!

You are right that FJ didn't help Rudolf either.  Stephanie told FJ something is wrong w/ Rudolf and asked him to send his son abroad.  FJ didn't see anything wrong w/ Rudolf and rejected Stephanie's suggestion.  

I wouldn't blame Rudolf's death entirely on Sisi and FJ too but I still think that Sisi neglected her elder children.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on October 25, 2005, 01:05:49 AM
Quote
I agree with what you said Angie.  Elisabeth looks charming but really not that great of a person I think.  She is unstable emotionally and has little sense of duty.  She cared very little about her elder children as well too.  Sophie died when Rudolf was still quite young (like 12 yrs old) and Sisi could've easilys stepped in at that point to take care of him but she didn't.  I think Rudolf tried to talk to Sisi about his problems but Sisi paid no attention to him at all...  

And her eldest daughter Sophie...  I think the doctors advised Sisi not to take the weak Sophie to Hungary but she insisted and hence, Sophie got sicked and died.  I think any caring mother would not have gone against doctors' recommendations.


Well-stated, Crazy Wing! I think she was not a great person either. Just a lonely, unbalanced woman with unstable state of mind . As for her charm, she was really a beauty in her youth but do one really can look stunnung in one's middle and old age if one  eat nothing except  a glass of milk and one orange every day, gallops on horseback and goes on foot for 8-9 hours  till one's break down...or falls into depressions regularly.BTW, Elisabeth did not like to be pictured in her old age.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on October 25, 2005, 01:50:54 AM
Quote
BTW, Elisabeth did not like to be pictured in her old age.

Moreover she hated to be photographed when she reached the age of 30. By this time, she did not have any more photos taken (which she had loved before!), because she didn´t want to show her "aged" face. The world should remember her as the greatest beauty ever. All photos taken of Elisabeth from the early 1870s always show a fan in front of her face, etc. I think these actions were quite exaggerated as she still was very (!) beautiful as it was said that her beauty did last for over 30 years. As Crown Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (later Wilhelm II.) visited Vienna in 1881, he said that Elisabeth was still superb looking.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on October 25, 2005, 04:15:33 AM
Quote
As Crown Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (later Wilhelm II.) visited Vienna in 1881, he said that Elisabeth was still superb looking.


Kaiser Wilhelm was very fond of exaggerating  ;). I agree she was a charming woman anyway.Actually I read somewhere that Elisabeth had some problems with her skin and teeth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on October 25, 2005, 10:25:09 AM
She surly didn´t have any problems with her skin, but indeed her teeth were neither very good nor beautiful. She used to hide them her whole lifetime, and that´s why she nearly did not open her mouth when speaking. She also spoke quiet.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on October 25, 2005, 01:27:08 PM
Quote
She surly didn´t have any problems with her skin, but indeed her teeth were neither very good nor beautiful. She used to hide them her whole lifetime, and that´s why she nearly did not open her mouth when speaking. She also spoke quiet.


She did have skin problems later in her left though!  FJ once wrote the Schratt that there was something wrong w/ Sisi's skin (i think it was a rash) and don't get shock when she goes to see Sisi.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on October 25, 2005, 02:19:08 PM
Hehe, crazy_wing, I think we will also have problems with our skin when we get old! ;) As a young woman until the age of 45 she had beautiful skin. But I agree, in her late 40s, her skin wasn´t unlined anymore. But I think her appeal did not have so much to do with her appearance. She moreover had that certain something, something which do not have much to do with the skin...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Angie_H on October 27, 2005, 07:37:37 AM
One thing I wonder is why was court etiquette so strict? It seems like they kept doing the same things the same way since Marie Theresa was Empress. Why didn't things change with the times?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on October 31, 2005, 01:01:10 PM
Quote
One thing I wonder is why was court etiquette so strict? It seems like they kept doing the same things the same way since Marie Theresa was Empress. Why didn't things change with the times?


They didn't change anything to sustain their power base. Court etiquette expressed the hierarchy and continuity the entire system was based upon. Once it was relaxed, it was thought, the inviolability and elevated position of the House of Habsburg would suffer.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on October 31, 2005, 01:37:01 PM
Quote

I've just finished reading Haslip's "Lonely Empress", the first book I've ever read about Elisabeth.



If you care to read more I suggest Brigitte Hamann's Reluctant Empress, which is definitely the key work on Elisabeth.

Quote

 Sophie in my opinion was not a controlling mother-in-law, just an exasperated one.

 


She tried to educate her according to her monarchical outlook. Sophie wanted a dutiful empress to represent a strong (and autocratic) monarchy and what she got was a self-indulging, over-sensitive, individualistic, freedom-loving child of nature who in addition was also a republican at heart  :o  ;D.  A republican who nevertheless didn't have a problem with living on the monarchy, which provided her with all the money she needed for all her extravaganzas  >:(.


Quote


 I felt like Elisabeth supported Hungary only to get on Sophie's nerves.

 


To Elisabeth Hungary and its aims embodied everything Sophie rejected and  she herself identified with, so it was only natural she would become its champion  8).  


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2005, 09:52:25 AM
Sisi was indeed a beautiful woman in her prime, but as empress she was too sensative to be an effective one. Archduchess Sophie, with her conservative views sought to bully her into submission. When Sisi finally won her power back, she had by then totally exhausted and did not care about the whole business any more.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 22, 2005, 03:05:08 PM
i read Elisabeth of Romania(Carmen Sylva) was a big admirer of the Empress...had  Sisi ever been in Romania???
Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on November 22, 2005, 09:23:51 PM
Yes, both FJ and Sisi made a state visit to Romania in 1896.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on November 23, 2005, 12:15:42 AM
Quote
Yes, both FJ and Sisi made a state visit to Romania in 1896.

Here is an interesting picture taking to commemorate the visit.  FJ, Sisi, Carmen Sylva, Carol I and CP Ferdinand are at the top of the hill.



I think that a state visit was without Sisi. And the woman in the centre (at the top of the hill) is Crownprincess Marie aka Missy.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on November 23, 2005, 04:27:31 AM
Well, the caption said its Sisi.  From the picture, it is hard to make whether the woman at the top is Sisi but anyhow, that woman does have a skinny waist and a veil over her face.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on November 23, 2005, 05:01:52 AM
Quote
Well, the caption said its Sisi.  From the picture, it is hard to make whether the woman at the top is Sisi but anyhow, that woman does have a skinny waist and a veil over her face.  


The captions are such mysterious tnings  :)..sometimes they are wrong. Missy had a slender waist too in 1896  :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 23, 2005, 08:03:11 AM
I think it was Missy too ! Sisi by that time would have prefer to stay out of the limelight. Although I agree that Sisi and Carman Slyvia were close friends.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 23, 2005, 12:18:30 PM

i read in Carmen Sylva's bio that when Sisi died Elisabeth of Romania was the only one to state(or wrote???)taht Sisi "would have forgiven " Luchini...Carmen sylva-exaggerated as usually but maybe she was the only Royal(apart from Sisi's family of course) who really understood Sisi...She also attended the funeral , layed a flower bouquet on her coffin and a sheet of paper on which she had written a poem in German
in this bio,the chapter on the relationship  between the two queens is called "A VERY SPECIAL FRIENDSHIP"

Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 23, 2005, 12:24:57 PM
in the same book i read FJ considered Queen Elisabeth of Romania a very,very mad woman ;)  ;Dhe didn't agree with the fact that Sisi spent time with such a "lacked of balance "lady ;D

Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on November 23, 2005, 01:12:06 PM
Quote
in the same book i read FJ considered Queen Elisabeth of Romania a very,very mad woman ;)  ;Dhe didn't agree with the fact that Sisi spent time with such a "lacked of balance "lady ;D

Laura


Let´s say she was "special". ;D
Not only Elisabeth herself, also her daughter Marie Valérie and her niece Amelie in Bavaria were great admirers of Carmen Sylva´s poetic talent. Both girl very extremly happy when Carmen Sylva wrote a poem in each girls diary.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on November 23, 2005, 01:38:15 PM
It must be the Wittslbach dreaminess!!!  I thought Marie Valerie would think Carmen Sylva is a mad woman but she didn't!  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: trentk80 on November 23, 2005, 03:04:13 PM
I remember reading that Marie Valerie thought that Carmen Sylva's way of dressing was weird.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 23, 2005, 03:35:19 PM
Quote

Let´s say she was "special". ;D



She was extremely romantic and she suffered a lot we know that ...maybe in this point she resembles Sisi ,that's why this special friendship between them...they were both German ,almost the same age(i think Carmen Sylva was younger???)and also similarity of "tastes" and "hobbies" because they enjoyed readind the same authors,they both enjoyed writing,they walked together through the forest of Sinaia,without being scared of bears ...Elisabeth of Romania admired Sisi for her great wish for freedom and many talents ,while Sisi didn't speak of Carmen Sylva as a queen of a neighbouring  country but as a poet and friend,she said Carmen S was her favourite among the queens she met because she was the most talented and "simple"(=modest)
Laura



Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 23, 2005, 03:39:01 PM
Quote
I remember reading that Marie Valerie thought that Carmen Sylva's way of dressing was weird.


i read taht too...i think Marie Valerie was right ,Carmen Sylva did dress weirdly:)but she had a good heart and real talent in writing and i think she was a" fit"friend  for the Great Empress
Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 23, 2005, 05:27:51 PM
Apart from Carman Slyvia, Sisi was also close to Vicky (Kaiserin Friedrich of Germany) who understood and value her talents. Sisi also admired Alix (of Denmark) who she declared know how to dress and ride properly.  ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on November 24, 2005, 11:36:16 AM
Quote
Apart from Carman Slyvia, Sisi was also close to Vicky (Kaiserin Friedrich of Germany) who understood and value her talents. Sisi also admired Alix (of Denmark) who she declared know how to dress and ride properly.  ;D


Hmm, I have never heard that Elisabeth was close to neither Vicky nor Alix. Of course, she had to visit Alix while being in England, but I can´t imagine those two women being friends.
Elisabeth was close to only very few woman, like her sisters, Marie Festitcs, Ida Ferency.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 24, 2005, 03:14:08 PM
Quote
Apart from Carman Slyvia, Sisi was also close to Vicky (Kaiserin Friedrich of Germany) who understood and value her talents. Sisi also admired Alix (of Denmark) who she declared know how to dress and ride properly.  ;D



i don't think she was friend with these women,maybe they met,they spent some time together(it was natural that way) but we can't speak of friendship like in the case of Carmen Sylva,because their personalities were very different;Carmen Sylva's and Sisi's nature,character were ,in some way ,similar but i repeat only in some way!!!!! :)
Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2005, 06:56:48 PM
I do believe that Sisi admired Carman Slyvia, she she place her sign portrait on her desk close to that of her sister Mathilde in one of her palaces. As for Vicky, read Hannah Pakula's book on Vicky to see the friendship between them. Sisis admired Vicky's intelligence and visited her in Friedrichshof (the house Vicky designed in Homburg near Frankfurt). I believe Sisi thought they were both misunderstood women who suffered under the system.

As for Alix, Sisi openly said she and her are the only royal that know how to dress. Another hobby they share is riding. Both women looked good in a tight riding habit and were excellent on horseback.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 25, 2005, 01:02:56 AM
Quote
I do believe that Sisi admired Carman Slyvia, she she place her sign portrait on her desk close to that of her sister Mathilde in one of her palaces.  



Really ?? i did not know that! thanks for the information...until now i was quite sceptical about  this so called friendship,but now i  really believe in it:)
Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 25, 2005, 05:49:38 AM
I think if you think clearly Sisi, Carman Sylvia and Vicky were all deemed misfits in their adopted countries. All of them felt misunderstood and even persecuted. That seemed to be one of the reasons why they bonded.  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on November 26, 2005, 03:40:16 AM
Quote
I do believe that Sisi admired Carman Slyvia, she she place her sign portrait on her desk close to that of her sister Mathilde in one of her palaces. As for Vicky, read Hannah Pakula's book on Vicky to see the friendship between them. Sisis admired Vicky's intelligence and visited her in Friedrichshof (the house Vicky designed in Homburg near Frankfurt). I believe Sisi thought they were both misunderstood women who suffered under the system.

As for Alix, Sisi openly said she and her are the only royal that know how to dress. Another hobby they share is riding. Both women looked good in a tight riding habit and were excellent on horseback.


Dear, maybe you should try reading Brigitte Hamann´s keywork on Elisabeth.
Eventhough Elisabeth visited Vicky in the early 1890s with her daughter Marie Valerie in Bad Homburg (and even went into jail for visiting her! ;)), they were certainly not what one would call friends. Vicky thought that Elisabeth spoke much too quiet etc. And Elisabeth was surely not amused when Vicky said that her fate was much more worse than Elisabeth´s.
I have never heared or read that Elisabeth said that she and Alix were the most stylish woman of their time.
BTW, Elisabeth was seen as the greatest beauty of her time, but certainly not as the most fashionable woman. When she met Empress Eugenie of France, known as very fashionable, she was meme said to be old-fashioned. ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 26, 2005, 07:48:10 AM
Quote

Dear, maybe you should try reading Brigitte Hamann´s keywork on Elisabeth.
Eventhough Elisabeth visited Vicky in the early 1890s with her daughter Marie Valerie in Bad Homburg (and even went into jail for visiting her! ;)), they were certainly not what one would call friends. Vicky thought that Elisabeth spoke much too quiet etc. And Elisabeth was surely not amused when Vicky said that her fate was much more worse than Elisabeth´s.
I have never heared or read that Elisabeth said that she and Alix were the most stylish woman of their time.
BTW, Elisabeth was seen as the greatest beauty of her time, but certainly not as the most fashionable woman. When she met Empress Eugenie of France, known as very fashionable, she was meme said to be old-fashioned. ;)



i think you are right again Linnea:):):)
Laura
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2005, 10:43:57 AM
To find traces of friendship between the two women, another good source was Vicky's letters to her mother. After Sisi's death she wrote about the Empress " She was so kind and so simple and a straight foward trustworthy charecter, courages and independent. I was truly fond of her...She was always so nice and good and kind to me and knew my sympathy for her...She had strange eccentric habits, was shy, hated society, etc.,so people did not know that she was clever and gifted she really was." This was taken of Count Corti's book on Vicky. As you remember, Corti also wrote an excellent bio on Sisi  ;D

The rumour that Sisi once praise Alix's style of dressing can be found in Georgina Battiscombe's excellent bio on Queen Alexandra. It sound logical since Alix was quite a snappy dresser in her youth. Both her beauty, style and riding skills appeal greatly to Sisi.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on December 02, 2005, 02:18:15 AM
In 1896 Empress Elisabeth had been in Vienna, then Corfu (in March ), then Budapest (at the festivities of the opening of a new wing of some palace), then Bad Ishl (she had a meeting with the Russian Imperial couple), then Vienna again...In short  :), Franz Joseph visited Romania alone.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on December 02, 2005, 03:09:27 AM
Quote
In 1896 Empress Elisabeth had been in Vienna, then Corfu (in March ), then Budapest (at the festivities of the opening of a new wing of some palace), then Bad Ishl (she had a meeting with the Russian Imperial couple), then Vienna again...In short  :), Franz Joseph visited Romania alone.


In 1896 Hungary celebrated the settlement of the Hungarian tribes in the Carpathian Basin (the seven tribes conquered the area of the present-day state in 896 A. D.). Yes, "new wings of some palaces" were opened as well, but it was something more important  ;)...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on December 03, 2005, 01:59:23 PM
Quote
In 1896 Empress Elisabeth had been in Vienna, then Corfu (in March ), then Budapest (at the festivities of the opening of a new wing of some palace), then Bad Ishl (she had a meeting with the Russian Imperial couple), then Vienna again...In short  :), Franz Joseph visited Romania alone.


Here's a more detailed chronology for the year 1896. For those, who are interested particularly in the Rumanian photographs: See 24th-30th September!
(I used Hamann's and Corti's biographies, the published letters written by Franz Joseph to Elisabeth and Katharina Schratt, the diary of Archduchess Marie Valerie, the memoires of Countess Irma Sztaray, Elisabeth's lady-in-waiting and the hungarian newspapers from 1896. I should read the letters written by Countess Marie Festetics, but they're published only from the years 1890-1893 and the Countess' diary, but it's a bit difficult to get the manuscript on Saturday... Maybe on Tuesday.  ;D)

So,

Dec 1895 - March 1896 - Elisabeth's in Cap Martin (in February & March also Franz Joseps there. Before his journey to the French Riviera, on the 9th February, he visits Marie Valerie and her children in Lichtenegg. On the 15th March FJ & E visit Queen Victoria in Nizza...)
15th March - E leaves Cap Martin, she travels to Corfu via Cannes and Naples.
19th March - FJ returns to Vienna
30Tth April - FJ arrives to Budapest (from Wien), E arrives the same day from Corfu
2nd May - Opening of the Millenium Exhibition in the presence of FJ & E. Try to find them in the crowd!  ;D

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/kk91.jpg)

And a bigger version of the drawing posted yesterday by Linnea (a drawing by Artur Halmi from 1898 ):

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/fjsisi0301.jpg)

5th May - Court Ball in the presence of FJ & E
7th May - E visits the Exhibition
9th May - E leaves Budapest. She visits Archduchess Marie Valerie in Schoenbrunn. She stays there for two days, then she travels to Lainz (a park near Vienna with E's villa, the so-called Hermesvilla)
6th June - FJ's in BP again, he opens the new wing of the royal palace
7th June - also E arrives
8th June - the so-called "Millenium Obeisance" - The members of the parliament  salute FJ & E in the royal palace

The second picture posted by Linnea depicts this event. The gigantic canvas was painted by Gyula Benczur, it was finished in 1908 and destroyed during WW II in 1944. Only reproductions, sketches and smaller copies remained. Sorry, I still haven't found better pics on the web. Here they come:

Smaller version as it's exhibited today in Godollo Palace:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/I-FerencJszalon.jpg)

Left part of the composition:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/fjsisi0008.jpg)

Sketch by Benczur exhibited in Nyiregyhaza:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/bencz6.jpg)

Study of FJ done from life in 1903 (it was posted earlier by Marc without any data - in 1983 it was in private collection):

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/FrJoseph.jpg)

9th June - E leaves BP and travel to Lainz
1th July - E's in Hohenschwangau, Bavaria with Countess Marie Festetics
3th July - according to Marie Valerie, E's still in Hohenschwangau
11th July - E's in Possenhofen
12th July - E's in Munich
13th July - E's in Salzburg
15th July - E's in Bad Ischl, summer residence of the imperial couple
24th Aug - E travels to Lainz
27th Aug - the Tzar and the Tzarina arrives to Vienna
29th Aug - March past (it was planned to be one day earlier, but it was raining that day). Banquet in the presence of FJ & E.
30th Aug - the Tzar & the Tzarina leave Vienna
in September there are some manoevre somewhere (sorry  :-/)
24th Sept - Birth of the 4th child of Marie Valerie, Hedwige in Bad Ischl. FJ & E visit them. According to MV, E spends 9 days with her, and leaves only on the
3th Oct - SO SHE WAS NOT IN RUMANIA!!!
26th Sept - FJ arrives to Orsova for the opening of a Danube-Channel
27th Sept - Alexander, King of Serbia & Charles, King of Rumania arrive. FJ's waiting for them in the Railway Station (sorry for the size  :'():

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/p.jpg)

They travel by ship to the opening ceremony. Landing:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/ezer252.jpg)

In the aftenoon, the three kings visit Herkulesfurdo (today Baile Herculane, Rumania). In the evening, FJ & the Rumanian king travel by train to the Rumanian capital, Bucharest.
28th Sept - FJ & Ch arrive to Bucharest
30th Sept - March Past in Cotroceni, then excurtion to Sinaja. On 2th October (FJ already returned to Budapest)
FJ writes a letter to Frau Schratt about his journey.
On the 30th Sept in Sinaja after climbing a mountain, the huge company consumed the Dejeuner on the top of the hill. ALSO PHOTOGRAPS WERE TAKEN.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/fjsisi0006.jpg)

2th Oct - FJ's in BP again
4th Oct - E arrives to BP, FJ opens the FJ Bridge
6th Oct - E visits the Millenium Exhibition again
7-8th Oct - FJ visits the Exhibition again
13th Oct - E visits the Exhibition with Ida Ferenczy, Marie Festetics & Archduchess Gisella
14th Oct - Excurtion to the Buda Hills with Gisella
15-19th Oct - Gisella & her husband visit the King of Rumania
15th Oct - FJ, E, Gisella & Archduke Ludwig Victor visit the Park Club in BP
20th Oct - FJ opens the new palace of the Supreme Court in BP
25th Oct - FJ opens the new building of the Museum of Applied Arts in BP
27th Oct - FJ visits the ethnographical Exhibition organized in the memory of Crownprince Rudolf
29th Oct - FJ & E leave BP
ETC, ETC, ETC................................ ;D
in the beginning of Dec, E travels to Biarritz
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on December 03, 2005, 02:59:13 PM
Thank you,Dboro! :) I used only Hamann's and Corti's books for the clarifying the dates.Now we know exactly where Sisi had been and where she had not been in 1896 ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 06, 2006, 02:43:15 PM
An idyllic family picture, Franz Joseph with his wife and children.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/aaustr1.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mili on January 20, 2006, 06:32:54 AM
It turns out that Kaiserin Elisabeth "...came to dislike, she used the term "loath" the idea of having children. After the first three children, even though her health was excellent, she insisted to her husband that they have no more children [...] She in fact encouraged Franz Josef to find a mistress so as not to have further intimate relations with him"
This possibly led to Franz Josef's purely sexual relationship with Anna Nahowski, with whom he fathered a child, Helena! "He usually visited her at her house in the Maxingstrasse, appearing at four in the morning. He came in, made love and then quickly disappeared"
He ended the relationship a few years after meeting Katharina Schratt, however it is believed that the relationship was anything but sexual. It appears Elisabeth knew and approved  :o of this connection.
Do we know of any other mistresses? Poor guy though, he was rejected by the most beautiful woman in Europe, must have been tough!

[size=10]Extracts taken from http://histclo.hispeed.com/royal/ost/fj1/fj1-eliz.htm and http://www.xs4all.nl/~androom/index.htm?biography/p008536.htm[/size]
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 05, 2006, 09:05:11 PM
[I find it extermely frustrating that the Habsburgs are  listed in the Hohenzollern subject threads, but be that at it may...]
I have just recieved the dvd  of ELISABETH [Kunze & Levay]  Vienna production. A fabulous musical. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Empress Elisabeth. It does sort of "Evitaize" her, but the show is just beautiful anyway.  I do not speak nor understand a word of German, but as we are all so familiar with the story, language is not important.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2006, 03:05:27 AM
Not really...After the first three children (Sophie, Gisela, Rudolf) . FJ contacted a form of (evidently treatable)  veneral disease, Elisabeth found out able it and had a breakdown. For a long time, she did not even let her husband go near her without a relative. After the Hungarian experience, Sisi decided to reward her husband and give motherhood a second try, hense Archduchess Valerie ("the only one").
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on February 06, 2006, 03:33:08 AM
Quote
Not really...After the first three children (Sophie, Gisela, Rudolf) . FJ contacted a form of (evidently treatable)  veneral disease, Elisabeth found out able it and had a breakdown. For a long time, she did not even let her husband go near her without a relative.

Interesting ! What are the sources of this info?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2006, 03:48:37 AM
Joan Halsip "The Lonely Empress" and Brigitte's book too.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on February 08, 2006, 12:35:10 AM
Quote
Joan Halsip "The Lonely Empress" and Brigitte's book too.  ;)


I see, I have not read Haslip's book but definitely I must re-read Hamann's. Unfortunatley though that for this re-reading I have to go to the library. :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on February 08, 2006, 05:14:22 AM
Hamann's much better than Haslip's IMO.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: aleksandra on February 10, 2006, 11:17:47 PM
I was and still am woundering about Elisabeth's travels mostly the years of 1862 to her death in 1898, Anything thats realy important. Oh and her famliy's vists to foreign places. And if you have time make them into a list. thank you
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2006, 06:02:26 AM
I think the idea of Elisabeth gotten some form of veneral diease from Franz Josef did make sense. Vienna at that time of the center of treating veneral diease in Europe at that time. It can also explain why Elisabeth a few months ago was still longing for her husband suddenly want to get as far away from him as possible.  :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 11, 2006, 07:44:51 AM
Quote
Vienna at that time of the center of treating veneral diease in Europe at that time.


Are you sure? I moreover think that it was London.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2006, 10:56:51 PM
No...It was Vienna. Archduke Rudolf and another sufferer, there both he and Stephanie did not have any children after Ersie... :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 12, 2006, 07:07:20 AM
Well, I am not sure about that at all! But I am sure you have done a lot of researces on this topic! ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2006, 04:14:07 AM
Yes...Especially about Vienna being the city to treat veneral diesese. Not only Franz Josef and Rudolf, but quite a few other Archdukes also caught it (some say even Franz Ferdinand too...). The society in Vienna at that time was filled with good time girls like Mitzi Caspar...That is why Bertie, Prince of Wales also like it there so much.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 13, 2006, 06:26:54 AM
Quote
The society in Vienna at that time was filled with good time girls like Mitzi Caspar



Oh, you are so right! Of course other cities like London or Paris didn´t have societies like that at all!  ;)
I am sure you have your brilliant facts out of a good book, haven´t you? Maybe you could share your sources with us? That would be so nice! Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2006, 07:01:49 AM
I think there are quite a few books that deal with the subject, especially the bios on Archduke Rudolf, his relationships with Mitzi Caspar, Archduchess Stephanie and Baroness Vestera. The are a few books in German about other Archdukes like Otto (brother of Franz Ferdinand) was a good looking playboy... >:( No wonder Sisi wanted escape from this false glamour.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 13, 2006, 10:01:56 AM
So true! But it would be nice anyway if you could show up your sources, dear Eric_Lowe! Thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: José on February 13, 2006, 05:30:11 PM
Two questions:

1. Did Helene resent Sissi for "stealing" her Franz Josef ?

2. Nicknames: Did they all have one ?
Ludwig = ??
Helene = Nene
Elizabeth = Sissi/Sisi
Karl-Theodore = Gackel
Marie = ??
Mathilde = ??
Sophie = ??
Max Emanuel = Mapperl
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2006, 07:22:12 PM
I think Marie was Marie (although she was called Maria Sofia in Italy), Mathilde was Spatz. Sophie was Sophie, although later she was addressed as "Sophie Charlotte".

Books on Rudolf:

1. A Hapsburg Tagedy by Judith Listowel ( this went into great detail on his affair with Mitzi Casper and his secret marriage to Antonia of Tuscany)

2. Clash of Generations by Lavender Cassels (This talks a bit about the easy love live in Vienna and descibe the affair between Archduke Johann and Milly Stubel, a ballet dancer from the opera).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 13, 2006, 08:00:55 PM
Quote
Two questions:

1. Did Helene resent Sissi for "stealing" her Franz Josef ?


I've always wondered this too. All I know is that Archduchess Sophie wanted FJ to marry Helene, not Elisabeth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2006, 08:32:39 PM
No...Nene was miffed at not being selected Empress. However when she saw how miserable Sisi was in Vienna, her heart went out to her sister. When Nene's marriage to the Prince of Thurn & Taxis was opposed by King Max Of Bavaria, it was Sisi who helped to secure the marriage.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 13, 2006, 08:51:30 PM
Thank you Eric_Lowe. Did Nene ever want to be empress (before Sisi was chosen)?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 14, 2006, 02:00:05 AM
Quote
Books on Rudolf:
 
1. A Hapsburg Tagedy by Judith Listowel ( this went into great detail on his affair with Mitzi Casper and his secret marriage to Antonia of Tuscany)
 
2. Clash of Generations by Lavender Cassels (This talks a bit about the easy love live in Vienna and descibe the affair between Archduke Johann and Milly Stubel, a ballet dancer from the opera).  



Well Eric_Lowe, a nice list of books on Rudolf (although the one by B. Hamann is the very best one around; "Rudolf"). But they don´t seem to have anything to do with the subject of veneral diseases in Europe in the late 1800s (e.g. comparision of the European capitals).???
It´s surely nice to read such gossipy books, but having a mistress wasn´t something unusual back than (just remember that nearly each Russian Grand Duke had one! ;) Those who hadn´t one were a minority!)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 14, 2006, 02:03:31 AM
Quote
No...Nene was miffed at not being selected Empress. However when she saw how miserable Sisi was in Vienna, her heart went out to her sister.


Oh Eric_Lowe! I´d love to have your sources! Where have you read this? Or do you have this information out of the Sissi-movies by Ernst Marischka? ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on February 14, 2006, 03:54:29 AM
Quote


Well Eric_Lowe, a nice list of books on Rudolf (although the one by B. Hamann is the very best one around; "Rudolf"). But they don´t seem to have anything to do with the subject of veneral diseases in Europe in the late 1800s (e.g. comparision of the European capitals).???
It´s surely nice to read such gossipy books, but having a mistress wasn´t something unusual back than (just remember that nearly each Russian Grand Duke had one! ;) Those who hadn´t one were a minority!)


Another great (and factual) book concerning especially Rudolf's mental (and physical) diseases (the author is psychiatrist):

in German:
John T. Salvendy: Rudolf,  Psychogramm eines Kronprinzen [... übers. von Christine von Kohl u. Elfriede Salvendy],  Wien-München, Amalthea Verlag, 1987.

in English:
John T. Salvendy: Royal Rebel, A Psychological Portrait of Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria-Hungary, Lanham, Md. ; New York, [N.Y.] ; London : Univ. Press of America, cop. 1988

I've got a copy in Hungarian:
Rudolf, Egy lázadó Habsburg lélektani tükörben, Budapest, 1988.



Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2006, 10:45:29 AM
The information on Nene came from German Books on the Thurn & Taxis family.  ::) I wish I could be that creative...I will have Sisi and Nene slug it out in the wrestling ring....for the prize of Empress... :-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 15, 2006, 11:11:53 AM
Quote
I will have Sisi and Nene slug it out in the wrestling ring....for the prize of Empress... :-)


Well, this idea sounds kind of vulgar, I think, and it certainly doesn´t suit neither Elisabeth nor Helene. ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on February 27, 2006, 12:02:36 PM
Quote
I would love to go and see that museum one day. Did anyone went to visit it in Vienna?


I was in Vienna in 1998 during the Sisi year and have seen the exhibition Elisabeth - Schönheit für die Ewigkeit that was dedicated to her in the Hofburg. But I was not aware that there was actually a Sisi museum there.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on February 27, 2006, 02:04:43 PM
Quote
But I was not aware that there was actually a Sisi museum there.


The Sisi-museum is actually quite new as it opened in 2004 (the 150th wedding day of Franz Joseph and Elisabeth).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on February 27, 2006, 05:33:23 PM
Too bad I missed it ... But, well, another good reason to plan a trip to beautiful & beloved Vienna !
Did you visit the museum Linnea ? It is worth seeing ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2006, 08:53:27 PM
What museum Linnea ?

And where is the Sisi museum located ?

Thanks !  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 04, 2006, 06:00:50 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/coloropenhair1forhp.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on March 04, 2006, 07:46:32 AM


The two portraits showing Elisabeth in Hungarian coronation robes are:
#1 by Sándor Wagner, done from life in 1867 in Vienna and Munich, commissioned by the National Portrait Gallery of the Hungarian National Museum, Budapest
#2 by Bertalan Karlovszky for the Country of Temes (Hungary, today Romania) in 1900

the coronation picture: a copy after Eduard von Engerth. The original picture was commissioned in 1872 for the royal palace of Budapest. After WWII it thought to be destroyed. It was found a decade ago in a museum storey. Now it's on display in the Gödöllö palace.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/koronazasikisterem.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 09, 2006, 10:41:49 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/elisabethbildsept03.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/elisabethaufkorfu1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 09, 2006, 10:42:13 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/211002.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 08:19:57 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/fjsisi0302.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 08:22:55 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/paar02.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/paar01.jpg)

a few whit Franz Joseph.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: LenelorMiksi on March 10, 2006, 09:27:48 AM
royal_netherlands, thanks so much for the pictures!  My favorite photos and portraits of Sissi I always find REALLY small, which is a pity.  I love the portrait of Sissi in black with the umbrella.  Was it painted after Rudolf's death?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 09:31:08 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/gfdgvse.jpg)
In color it is even better. ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 09:40:00 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/bild42.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 11:41:14 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/foto34k.jpg)(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/foto35.jpg )
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/foto37k.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 11:43:09 AM

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/foto76.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 11:44:16 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/foto6a.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/kais.jpg)
The last one I think is funny.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 11:45:01 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/foto33g.jpg)
The elegant Empress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 12:08:59 PM
Quote
royal_netherlands, thanks so much for the pictures!  My favorite photos and portraits of Sissi I always find REALLY small, which is a pity.  I love the portrait of Sissi in black with the umbrella.  Was it painted after Rudolf's death?


Youre Welcomme. :)
I dont know really?

royal netherlands
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 10, 2006, 04:15:42 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/qeenliz.jpg)
KAISERIN ELISABETH, by  Anton Romako, 1883
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on March 11, 2006, 04:15:19 AM
Quote
You are verry welcomme Booklady glad you are happy whit the pictures. Are you searching fore more?
 

  royal netherlands :)

And Eric yes the last painting looks really post modern youre right. But I never saw it before I think it is not that famous.
 
Posted by: Eric_Lowe Posted on: Mar 10th, 2006, 10:45pm
Try singing "You are my sunshine"    
 
hahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahaha ;D ;D


As a work of art, Romako's portrait is THAT famous; as a picture of Sisi "for fans" is not that famous, probably because of its unusual, almost "postmodern" look. It's funny, but it was made not later than some of Elisabeth's most popular "cultic" images...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on March 12, 2006, 03:47:16 PM
A HUGE thank you to RN for all those wonderful pictures (I can see them now! :D). They're wonderful.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on March 13, 2006, 03:55:48 PM
Does anybody have any pics of Sisi with her children and/or husband? Most of the photos I have seen are just of her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 14, 2006, 05:45:59 AM

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/rudolfmitmutter.jpg)
Here you go. ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Aliss_Kande on March 14, 2006, 07:46:52 AM
Quote
Does anybody have any pics of Sisi with her children and/or husband? Most of the photos I have seen are just of her.


I read in a book once that, although Sissi liked to be photographed, she refused to take pictures with her children.  I have only seen one with the children and it is in a large family group somewhere on this thread.  That is it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on March 14, 2006, 10:18:31 AM
Thank you for the images!  :) Does anyone know why she didn't like to be photographed with her children?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 14, 2006, 10:27:31 AM
Youre welcomme I just joined youre forum. :)

   royal netherlands
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Booklady on March 14, 2006, 07:36:35 PM
Does anyone know when the earliest known photo of Elisabeth was taken?  And yes, it is strange that she is seldom seen in actual photos with her husband or children.  There are very few.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2006, 08:43:37 PM
When she was about 15 and looked like a monkey. I remember seeing the photo that she wore a tartan dress for the session.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on March 16, 2006, 04:16:25 AM
Quote
Does anyone know when the earliest known photo of Elisabeth was taken?  And yes, it is strange that she is seldom seen in actual photos with her husband or children.  There are very few.


The earliest:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/0000000sisi1853.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 18, 2006, 11:22:51 AM
Quote

The earliest:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/0000000sisi1853.jpg)


Emperor Franz Joseph didn't like that photo at all - and I agree with him.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on March 21, 2006, 07:57:18 AM
Quote
Quite a number of books said it was...It is hard to trace the original source.  :(


If you're talking about this photograph,
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/griechinsisihofdame.jpg)
here's an early source:
The picture was published on the 25th June, 1899 in the Hungarian illustrated newspaper "Vasárnapi Ujság". The article says, that it was taken by an American man, who was on holiday in Switzerland in September 1898. He took different shots of the city, and on the 5th September, he photographed two unknown ladies standing before a Café from his window. After his return to America, someone's identified the lady on the left with the Empress. According to the article, the lady on the right is Countess Irma Sztáray, Elisabeth's lady-in-waiting. The identification was (and is) generally accepted.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 23, 2006, 10:21:48 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/cdv1877sissionhorse.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 26, 2006, 10:31:52 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/royalty/sisi99993.jpg)
Another Elisabeth.

  royal netherlands :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on March 27, 2006, 07:22:32 PM
Is that a drawing or something? I can't tell.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 18, 2006, 02:40:27 AM
The original statue was made by the Austrian sculptor, Hermann Klotz in 1907. It was ordered by Ida von Ferenczy, Countess Marie Festetics and Baron Ferenc Nopcsa for the Queen Elizabeth Memorial Church in Budapest. The church was consacreted in 1908. The life-sized marble version was erected in the vestibule of the church. Surprisingly, the statue was not removed during the first decade of the Communism, but it was seriously damaged during the fights of the revolution in 1956. Now it's replaced with an altar. A Vienna firm (the Porzellanfabrik A. Förster) manufactured small porcelain versions (full length & bust) shortly after 1907. Now it's a popular auction item. A copy from one of the Kaiserhaus auctions of Dorotheum:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/094_50557.jpg)

Another life-sized variant was to be found in the Hofburg, Vienna. Now it's on display in the new Sisi Museum.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/klotz_museum.jpg)

I knew, that also the Metropolitan Museum has a copy of the porcelain version, but I haven't seen that before. So thanks for the photo,

Daniel

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Margarita Markovna on May 22, 2006, 07:23:12 PM
Thank you for the information. I had no idea there were others. The little card at the Met itself said nothing about that.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 23, 2006, 06:55:08 AM
I think, you don't know these: two portraits of the "old" Empress by Gyula Benczur (you know, he painted that famous "Kniestück" of Elisabeth in black drass and with golden brocade background) and Ede Telcs. The first was made in 1909 for the National Casino in Budapest (and was destroyed during the WWII), the second was made in 1901.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/26benczur_casino.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/24h_telcs.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on July 03, 2006, 01:01:32 PM
HELLO,

I am a new entry; i am french, living in Italy... I am interested on Hapsburg  - HABSBURG family's travels, for a project of a professional work...  my english is not good (I apologize) but I understand anything you wrote in english... anyway  I understand only a few german words( for my project a big problem  indeed !!!) ... first topic...  I found on a french illustrated newspaper (on day 20 december 1903) a picture and a text expressing the fact that Archduchess Elisabeth (the daughter of crownprince Rudolph) would have murdered a woman, mistress of her husband Otto von Windischgraetz... (probabely he married her not because he loved her but because Emperor ordered him to do)  I try to attach the picture and the text...

I have a question : about the travels of Ferdinand-Maximilian and Rudolph before their wedding do anyone knows something ???

best regards for all of you in the Forum   :-*

Claire-Colette
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on July 04, 2006, 02:34:29 PM
here is the link :
http://perso.orange.fr/centans/pj1903/pj68320121903.htm

here is the text :

Un drame de cour
Vengeance de femme outragée
La famille impériale d' Autriche semble vouée, depuis quelques années, aux événements tragiques. On n' a point oublié le sombre drame encore mystérieux de Meyerling, qui coûta la vie à l' archiduc Rodolphe, héritier de la couronne, ni l' assassinat de l' impératrice. Voici qu' une archiduchesse de vingt ans, ravissante, aimée de tous, petite-fille du malheureux empereur François-Joseph, et fille de l' archiduc Rodolphe, vient de venger par un nouveau meurtre l' outrage fait à sa dignité de femme et d' épouse. La princesse Élisabeth de Habsbourg s' était mariée, il y a deux ans, avec le prince Otto Windiochgraetz, contre le gré de son grand-père, qui finit cependant par céder à ses prières. La situation de son fiancé était inférieure à la sienne ; mais elle l' aimait et rien ne put la décider à un autre choix. Pendant les premiers temps, rien ne troubla son bonheur, mais un jour vint où des soupçons sur la fidélité de son mari s' éveillèrent dans son esprit, et, comme toujours, il se trouva quelqu' un pour lui apprendre la vérité. Avec une violence indignation, la princesse acquit la certitude que son mari la trompait avec une artiste d' un théâtre tchèque, Mlle Ziégler. Aucun détail ne lui fut épargné; elle sut que les rendez-vous avaient lieu dans la villa de Verschovitz, près de Prague. Très surexcitée, elle se présenta à la villa, armée d' un revolver. Ce fut en vain qu' un domestique voulut lui barrer le passage ; l' archiduchesse outragée tira sur lui et le blessa grièvement. Le malheureux tomba en travers de la porte ; elle passa sur son corps. Après quoi, se précipitant sur Mlle Ziégler, elle la tua net à coups de revolver. Le mari infidèle, épouvanté, avait sauté, pendant que ce drame se déroulait, par la fenêtre : ce fut à cela seulement qu' il dut de ne point partager le sort de l' actrice. La cour d' Autriche, par ses ambassadeurs auprès des puissances, s' efforce de cacher la vérité et fait démentir le fait criminel que nous venons de raconter. Tous les journaux tchèques, anglais, allemands ou français maintiennent, malgré les démentis officiels, la triste réalité de ce drame.
Le Petit Journal du 20 Décembre 1903



Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on July 04, 2006, 02:38:59 PM
I cannot give a secure traduction...     :(     If someone explains to me HOW TO DO TO insert a picture...      :-[     I can give the picture     :D     ... anyway you can go to the site with the link above....  :-*

C-C
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Sissi on July 04, 2006, 03:11:49 PM
Chere Claire Colette, je n ai personellement jamais entendue parler de cette anecdote, mais c est tres interessant!

Dear Claire Colette, I have never heard about that story, maybe someone else could tell us some more about it. ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on July 04, 2006, 04:29:05 PM
Dear Sissi, (so strange for me)

Thanks for the reply,
yes it is interesting : I was amazed when I found the text: I tried to discover something on the net but I found NOTHING... Only 3 possibilities there are to know the historical reality :

1// find others reports in english, german, italian, czech newspapers of the month of december 1903
2// find some wittnesses in some books, diaries, and so on
3// find legal documents about the death of a Miss Ziegler in Praga, Wien... (but remember the way the court did with the death of Mary Vetsera)

Point 3  for me is actually impossible (until october 2006 I have to work in Italy) but if the forum has a member in Praga, Wien... maybe he or she can help...

Point 2 is possible : the forum has many members with pretty good documentations

Point 1 : next week I will try, in Florence (100 Km from my home) to see all possible newspapers of december 1903 and also I will do in Nice and Paris in France on next october. If  some english member of the forum would try to do the same in Berlin and London... ??!

Is the fact real ??? The newspaper reporting the affair (LE PETIT JOURNAL)  was not exactly "trash", but was something like french MATCH or italian old EPOCA ( with a dayly issue and a weekly illustrated issue). Reporting a false news upon a member of Austrian Monarchy so close to the old monarch  could have been a very damageable affair for the editor, so generally the reported FACTS were absolute TRUTH, but the newspaper offered its with some "sensationnalisme"...

Thinking about the girl, (his strange life as a very rich girl without father, without mother, without grandmothers... , the fact she knew the suicide of her father only when she was 15, the strange way she obtained to marry Otto, the hate she felt for his mother and so many other things, ...) all these things let me think that it COULD BE a real fact !!!

We need to be careful about the names : Mayerling is called Meyerling in the text  and Windisch-Gratz (with the special german "a") is written here Windiochgraetz. Purhaps the names of the unfortunate mistress and of the bohemian Villa are also changed by a french writing...

Anyway we can try to discover the truth... :-/

C-C
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on July 05, 2006, 05:56:19 AM
To-day I tried to find something about this murder into the "LADY LAYARD'S JOURNAL", looking on all the pages of november and december 1903,  but i found nothing... :-?

Anyway, I would like to say that UNTIL THE FACT IS NOT DIMOSTRATED, there is no certainty about ELISABETH's shoting and murdering this actress... Maybe it is an error, maybe  :-?some other archduchess did, etc, etc... I guess in 1889 some newspapers (italians' IL MATTINO, french' LE GAULOIS and LE MATIN, deutsch' BERLINER TAGEBLATT, etc) commited errors on empress Elisabeth, his grandmother, reporting after the death of Rudolph acts of insanity Sisi "did" ... but the wittnesses of the diaries of Marie Valerie and  of the ladies on waiting clearly stabilished that she did not ... :o... :o... :o... Anyway I will try to understand the case of Erzi... better if you help me...

Best regards for all of you

C-C
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on September 19, 2006, 12:18:37 PM
I decided to devote a special subject on the Empress Elisabeth of Austria for post new photos of her and her family (husband, children, parents, siblings...). The majority of them come from the book of Catherine Clement " Sissi, the anarchistic Empress " marvelously quite illustrated.
I wished to make some profit everyone.
In a friendly way.

I start with 3 new pictures of Sissi :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/1855.jpg)
About 1857, a photo of Franz Hansfstaengl

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sad.jpg)
Around 1860, photo of Ludwig Angerer

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/1864.jpg)
And about 1864

Soon others of this splendid Empress will follow...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alice of Hesse on September 20, 2006, 03:59:16 AM
In 1877 the Empress Elizabeth of Austria visited England to go hunting. She stayed at Cottesbrooke House and chose Earl Spencer as Master of Hunt. When she left England she presented Earl Spencer a large picture of herself on a horse called "Merry Andrew". This picture was later hanging in Althorp House. Does someone of you have a picture of this painting  and can post it ?

The empress also liked the portrait of Lady Henrietta Langham, the wife of Sir William Langham 8th hanging in the hall at Cottesbrooke and ordered a copy of it. Does someone of you have a picture of this painting and can post it ?

Who knows more details ?
Greetings Alice

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: koloagirl on September 21, 2006, 09:42:54 PM
 :)

Dear Alice:

Are either of these 3 the one you are talking about?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/sissi90.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/118.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/ScanImage374.jpg)

I believe that all of these are from Sisi's period of time.
I hope that one of these is the one you are looking for!   ;D

Janet R.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on September 22, 2006, 09:49:09 AM
A nice photo. I found it on a hungary site.

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/sissi.jpg)

bye, bye!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on September 24, 2006, 08:57:25 AM
Here three other photographs of the Empress Elisabeth taken in 1866 and 1867 :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/1866.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/dog.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissi1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Kaiserin Sissi on September 24, 2006, 12:00:10 PM
(http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1001/029hf9.jpg)(http://)

(http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/7500/richterda5.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 02, 2006, 03:47:46 PM
In my opinion this photo is a montage, because I've seen it with another background.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 04, 2006, 10:46:17 AM
In my opinion it's definitely too easy to say: Oh, poor Elisabeth was so young and her mother-in-law was so mean and took Sophie, Gisela and Rudolf away from her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 11:10:43 AM
That was the truth !  >:( Sisi made the world see how different she could be with Valerie, her youngest (and only) child. Archduchess Sophie was barely allowed to come near the child. I think that was Sisi's revenge.  ::)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Linnea on October 04, 2006, 11:53:30 AM
I am of the same opinion as Marie. Elisabeth - like some of her sisters - simply wasn´t the motherly type and I don´t think that her relationship with Marie Valérie, which seems rather odd to me at times, proves that she would have been a good mama for her elder children.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on October 04, 2006, 11:56:23 AM
I think that Sisi fighted with Sophie, because children were very near Sophie´s apartments. And Sisi´s apartments were quite far from the children. But empress rezignated after death her oldest daughter. This children pertained to empire, but Valerie was only for her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 11:58:47 AM
Archduchess Sophie made that clear to the young mother. A blow to Sisi nonetheless. So indeed...Valerie was hers alone.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on October 04, 2006, 02:22:50 PM
What hungary site please?

I´m not sure, but it could be this site:
http://forum.index.hu/Article/showArticle?na_start=30&na_step=30&t=9118767&na_order=
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 05, 2006, 06:42:31 AM
This picture of Elisabeth is very scary:

Can anyone indentifyd this people? I know Emperor Franz Joseph.

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/elisabeth3.jpg)


The man standing on the far left is Napoléon III., next to him you can see Empress Elisabeth on horseback. The woman in the center is Empress Eugénie and Franz Joseph is sitting on the horse on the right. I think the other people are servants.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 05, 2006, 07:32:04 AM
Are there more pictures with Napoleon III and Elisabeth or/ and Franz Joseph?

I have to read more about their relation...did Napoleon III see her and Franz Joseph several times?

Sorry for being so stupid today not knowing it...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 05, 2006, 11:11:43 AM
There are only very few paintings of Elisabeth Duchess in Bavaria as a child. In Hamann's photobook you can see three paintings of her. The nice picture with the flowers, that we have already mentioned here, is among them. Then there is also a picture that shows Elisabeth with a doll and another one of the ten-year-old Elisabeth, which looks like a miniature to me.

What I can tell you is that the little girl with flowers is generally identified as Elisabeth Duchess in Bavaria. I really don't know why it shouldn't be her. And by the way: I've seen so many paintings and photos of Erzsi as a child and that's why I am absolutely sure that the girl with flowers is not her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 05, 2006, 02:37:29 PM
Thanks for the clear explanations. Can you, if time, send one more child picture of her?
They seem to be rare.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2006, 09:44:00 PM
I saw that head in the Munich (the former Max Palace now a bank) and a copy at the Hofburg in Vienna (inside a glass case).  :o
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 06, 2006, 04:12:10 AM
Thanks very much for the wonderful pictures. They are very beautiful! I had never seen child pictures like those of Elisabeth you sent...with ten she is already very nice! That one with her brother Carlo Theodor I already knew before and I always liked it a lot!

Again: Thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 06, 2006, 05:26:15 AM
I especially like the bust by Fernkorn. When I first saw it in Hamann's Kaiserin wider Willen I couldn't take me eyes off it.  ;) I also think that she looked absolutely beautiful as a child. So it's quite strange to me that lots of authors claim that she was a quite ugly child.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2006, 06:48:15 AM
I think it was said she was an ugly baby who grew into a beautiful girl.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on October 12, 2006, 07:41:13 AM
And it was made in the mid-1850s by Karl Theodor von Piloty. Sorry, I don't remember the exact date. Anyhow the first and the second one were both made not later than the 1860s.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on October 14, 2006, 11:06:19 AM
The fabulous destiny of Sissi begins the day of her birth, in Munich, on December 24, 1837, the christmas day before,
under the reign of King Ludwig Ier of Bavaria.


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/munichpalacewittelsbach.jpg)
The Palace of her parents in Munich

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/louis1er.jpg)
The King Ludwig Ier of Bavaria.
He was the Sissi's maternal uncle.


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 15, 2006, 02:52:11 AM
By the way:
Why do you always spell her name in the kitschy version S I S S I, although it is known that Elisabeth herself wanted her name to be written with only one 's' ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alice of Hesse on October 15, 2006, 12:43:10 PM
In 1877 the Empress Elizabeth of Austria visited England to go hunting. She stayed at Cottesbrooke House and chose Earl Spencer as Master of Hunt. When she left England she presented Earl Spencer a large picture of herself on a horse called "Merry Andrew". This picture was later hanging in the Billard room at Althorp House. Does someone of you have a picture of this painting and can post it ?

The empress also liked the portrait of Lady Henrietta Langham, the wife of Sir William Langham 8th hanging in the hall at Cottesbrooke and ordered a copy of it. Does someone of you have a picture of this painting and can post it ?

Who knows more details ?
Greetings Alice


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Elizaveta on October 16, 2006, 12:06:16 PM
I've read somewhere that Empress Elisabeth "Sissi" of Austria had this strange, very modern-like obsession over her figure. Since people praised her for her beauty and her perfect figure, the Empress was determined to maintain her looks for her remaining years. She was on many diets and tried out many peculiar methods (such as putting a hot towel on her stomach before going to bed--she thought it would keep her stomach flat, thus maintaining her figure!). Although nobody realized at the time, most historians were aware of her suffering from an eating disorder (anorexia, I believe). So, she's not only growing more eccentric as she became older, she became more obsessed in preserving her beauty and figure! I am actually surprised that the Austrians in her time admired her in spite of her craziness... :-\
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 16, 2006, 03:31:11 PM
Actually the Austrian population didn't admire Elisabeth at all. They were really angry - not because of her thin body -, but because of her journeys. In the early 1860s and in her later years she was always "on the road" which also meant that she needed an amount of money. There were times when the Austrian monarchy only had an Empress by name.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on October 21, 2006, 11:50:03 AM
Elisabeth was the daughter of the Duke Max and the Duchess Ludovika in Bavaria.

Her father belonged to the branch junior by Wittelsbach which went up with Jean-Charles, Count Palatine (1638-1704). In 1799, becoming Duke, Maximilien-Joseph of Bavaria granted to these Wittelsbach second-rate the tittle of Duke but in  Bavaria to distinguish them from the Dukes of  Bavaria belonging to the elder branch.
Lastly, in 1845, Louis Ier granted the quality of Royal Highnesses to them.

The Duke Max was a simple man who hated the life of court and fled the official ceremonies. He preferred food with the large air, liked to fish, hunt, and adored over all the horses, at the point to make build a personal horse-gear.


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/dukemax.jpg)
Duke Max in bavarian costume

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/father.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/detail.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/maxmanege.jpg)
Duke Max as a rider in his personal horse-gear


His wife, Ludovika, was of condition higher than that of her husband because, Duchess of Bavaria, she was the daughter of King Maximilien-Joseph Ier and the sister of reigning King Louis Ier.
She concluded a marriage of convenience and suffered from her lower condition whereas two of her sisters were Queens and the another mother of the emperor of Austria.
Also, she sought has to take a revenge through her daughters while intending them for high alliances.


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ludovicaandchilds.jpg)
Duchess Ludovika in 1837 with two of her children and a new born, perhaps Sissi ?


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/maxludovica.jpg)
Older Max and Ludovika in Bavaria

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 21, 2006, 03:01:18 PM

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ludovicaandchilds.jpg)
Duchess Ludovika in 1837 with two of her children and a new born, perhaps Sissi ?


This picture shows Duchess Luise, her son Louis and her daughter Helene. The new born child is not Sissi, but Elisabeth (Sisi).  :P
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on October 22, 2006, 09:00:31 AM

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ludovicaandchilds.jpg)
Duchess Ludovika in 1837 with two of her children and a new born, perhaps Sissi ?


This picture shows Duchess Luise, her son Louis and her daughter Helene. The new born child is not Sissi, but Elisabeth (Sisi).  :P


MarieCharlotte,

I note that you grant too much importance to a simple detail which for me does not have any.

Indeed, I could quote you of many books or articles which speak about Elisabeth of Austria by spelling Sissi with two S and not only one. The majority of people write it besides thus and as the majority always, thus I would continue to quote it, than you carry it likes that or not !

Now, if that shocks you so much, you are not obliged to consult this subject and I do not oblige you to take part in it, quite to the contrary !

To the wise, Hello ! ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 22, 2006, 03:17:35 PM
KarlandZita,

I think that it is important to keep in mind that Elisabeth herself as well as every member of her family spelled her nickname with only one s. But if you want to keep on showing your ignorance, go on. That's sad, but I don't care. People who are really interested in Elisabeth will laugh about you and your attitude.


Oh, and don't try to tell me in which discussions I should take part in! That's definitely not your business.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 22, 2006, 08:14:43 PM
I think the opinions of both participants is understood by them and us all. Before it goes any further, I'd like to request that any further disagreeements take place in PMs. Thank you.

 
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2006, 09:43:14 PM
One person I have met in Lake Sternberg told me that Sisi is actually Lizi...!  :o
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 22, 2006, 11:33:17 PM
One person I have met in Lake Sternberg told me that Sisi is actually Lizi...!  :o

Tell us more. Were you at the lake 'fishing' for gossip?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 23, 2006, 02:09:37 AM
One person I have met in Lake Sternberg told me that Sisi is actually Lizi...!  :o

Eric is right. There is a thesis that the "S" in Elisabeth's signature actually is a "L", which means Elisabeth's nickname was not "Sisi", but "Lisi".
At the station of Starnberg, there is a little museum dedicated to Elisabeth. Its owner is Mr. Heinemann. He is convinced that her name was "Lisi" - which, of course, can't be true. Every member of her family quoted her as "Sisi".
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 23, 2006, 02:45:29 AM

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ludovicaandchilds.jpg)
Duchess Ludovika in 1837 with two of her children and a new born, perhaps Sissi ?


This picture shows Duchess Luise, her son Louis and her daughter Helene. The new born child is not Sissi, but Elisabeth (Sisi).  :P


MarieCharlotte,

I note that you grant too much importance to a simple detail which for me does not have any.

Indeed, I could quote you of many books or articles which speak about Elisabeth of Austria by spelling Sissi with two S and not only one. The majority of people write it besides thus and as the majority always, thus I would continue to quote it, than you carry it likes that or not !

Now, if that shocks you so much, you are not obliged to consult this subject and I do not oblige you to take part in it, quite to the contrary !

To the wise, Hello ! ;D


Dear Karl and Zita,

Please look what you are saying and do not offend, if people only defend the historical truth!  Maybe it is unimportant to you, how empress Elisabeths name was spelled, but you should notice that it is not a proof for a historical fact, that many do or say that thing in a special way. There may be people, who spell Elisabeth´s name with two "S" in books or other sources, but as I said that´s no "proof" that this is correct.
As a historian one knows that not everything is right, only because it is written. As I study history I know that.
So, please, anybody has the right here, to clear the facts and take part in our discussions. Please be careful about your comments next time.

 
 
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2006, 02:52:41 AM
Yes...I did met and spoke to Mr. Heinemann while I was in Lake Starnberg. I bought quite a few old prints from his shop/museum. The things there are really super !  ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on October 25, 2006, 12:26:26 PM
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3587/21aout1861rudolfvillareichnaunh7.jpg)

In this picture are Rudolf and Gisela....and Elisabeth? What do you think?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 25, 2006, 01:20:03 PM
I have heard, too, that Elisabeths name might have been "Lisi", but it´s a strange thesis because, was it not known, how she was called in the family? I think one does not have only the signature as a written document, there must have been infos, how she was called by the people. So why do some people state that she might have been "Lisi"?

Sorry for that question.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 25, 2006, 02:05:42 PM
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3587/21aout1861rudolfvillareichnaunh7.jpg)

In this picture are Rudolf and Gisela....and Elisabeth? What do you think?

This photo was taken at Reichenau an der Rax in Austria where Franz Joseph loved to go hunting. The building in the back is the so-called Rudolfsvilla. This photo and also some more were taken in August 1861. Little Crownprince Rudolf celebrated his third birthay there. One of his presents was a little house called "Rudolfs Jagdhütte" were Rudolf and his sister Gisela used to play. There are also some pictures showing Rudolf and Gisela in this little house.

The lady on the balcony is the children's nanny. Elisabeth was far away on her son's birthday ...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 25, 2006, 02:16:41 PM

Another photo which was taken in Reichenau:

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4531/maxantonreichenaumg9.jpg)

left to right: unknown man, Maximilian Anton von Thurn und Taxis (Helene in Bavaria's husband), Franz Joseph, Rudolf and Gisela, unknown man, the nanny.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Sissi on October 25, 2006, 04:46:37 PM
who could have been the man at hte window??? ::)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2006, 09:19:35 PM
don't know...

Why wasn't Archduchess Sophie there to share in the celebrations. She fought so hard to taken Rudolf away from his mother that she should be there to comfort Rudolf.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 26, 2006, 05:53:39 AM
who could have been the man at hte window??? ::)

I don't know ... maybe someone from the court? A servant?

Dear Eric, maybe Archduchess Sophie was on Rudolf's birthday in Reichenau, too, but we don't see her on the photo.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2006, 09:43:22 PM
I think she may have been there. I heard she was devoted to him.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on October 30, 2006, 05:08:42 AM
(http://cisarovna-sisi.wz.cz/odkaz/sisi1.jpg)

A nice photo of empress Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 05, 2006, 10:14:56 AM

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ludovicaandchilds.jpg)
Duchess Ludovika in 1837 with two of her children and a new born, perhaps Sissi ?


This picture shows Duchess Luise, her son Louis and her daughter Helene. The new born child is not Sissi, but Elisabeth (Sisi).  :P


MarieCharlotte,

I note that you grant too much importance to a simple detail which for me does not have any.

Indeed, I could quote you of many books or articles which speak about Elisabeth of Austria by spelling Sissi with two S and not only one. The majority of people write it besides thus and as the majority always, thus I would continue to quote it, than you carry it likes that or not !

Now, if that shocks you so much, you are not obliged to consult this subject and I do not oblige you to take part in it, quite to the contrary !

To the wise, Hello ! ;D


Dear Karl and Zita,

Please look what you are saying and do not offend, if people only defend the historical truth!  Maybe it is unimportant to you, how empress Elisabeths name was spelled, but you should notice that it is not a proof for a historical fact, that many do or say that thing in a special way. There may be people, who spell Elisabeth´s name with two "S" in books or other sources, but as I said that´s no "proof" that this is correct.
As a historian one knows that not everything is right, only because it is written. As I study history I know that.
So, please, anybody has the right here, to clear the facts and take part in our discussions. Please be careful about your comments next time.

 
 

Perhaps well, but I believe that we was then a little to  move away from the principal subject which were above to post pictures of the Empress and from her family... And I acknowledge that that has to irritate me a little because there are obviously several ways of writing and to interpret the signature of the nickname of Elisabeth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on November 07, 2006, 06:57:42 AM
Duke Maximilian in Bavaria

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/max01.jpg)

Sisi and Franz Joseph

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/56461372.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Zanthia on November 08, 2006, 01:43:09 AM
Yes, it was only some decades after her death, she became popular in Austria and got her mythic status. I have never been to Vienna...yet, but I have heard that theres hardly a store that does'nt sell something with either her name or picture on it. In Hungary, on the other hand, she was loved and admired during her lifetime. Elisabeth, or Erzebeth as it is pronounced in hungarian, is still the most popular name for girls, as it has been since the days of Sisi.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 11, 2006, 09:44:56 AM
Elisabeth was not the only child of Max and Ludovica. She had two elder siblings, Ludwig and Helene and after it, will be born still five brothers and sisters : Carl-Theodore, Marie, Mathilde, Sophie and Maximilian.


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/louishelene.jpg)
Ludwig, here with his sister Helene

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/helene.jpg)
Helene, called " Néné " by family

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/gackel.jpg)
Carl-Théodore, surnamed " Gäckel "

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/marie1.jpg)
Marie

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/mathilde1.jpg)
Mathilde, surnamed " Moineau " by her family

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sophie1.jpg)
Sophie

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/max2.jpg)
and Maximilian
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 11, 2006, 09:55:05 AM
Elisabeth was not the only child of Max and Ludovica. She had two elder siblings, Ludwig and Helene and after it, will be born still five brothers and sisters : Carl-Theodore, Marie, Mathilde, Sophie and Maximilian.

Actually Elisabeth had three elder siblings: Ludwig (1831-1920), Wilhelm Karl (1832-1833) and Helene (1834-1890). Duchess Ludovica also had a stillborn son, Maximilian, in December 1845. The youngest was known as Max Emanuel or Mapperl, not Maximilian.

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/gackel.jpg)
Carl-Théodore, surnamed " Gäckel "

His nickname was Gackel.

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/mathilde1.jpg)
Mathilde, surnamed " Moineau " by her family

You gave the French translation of her nickname here. As she was a Bavarian Duchess, she was known as "Spatz" in her family. Her nieces and nephews called her "Tante Spatz" which means "Aunt Spatz".
On this photograph you can see Helene, not Mathilde. This pic was once misidentified by Hamann in Sisis Familienalbum and now almost everyone thinks that the lady on the photograph is Helene, which is not true.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 11, 2006, 10:22:05 AM
Here interesting precise details. But it's not easy to know if it is about Helene or of  Mathilde on this photo because it seems that the two sisters ressembled each other much.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Agneschen on November 11, 2006, 10:29:02 AM
This pic is definitely Helene. She had a very distinctive physical appearance (dark hair & small dark eyes, sharp features). Mathilde & her did not look at all alike IMO. I think Mathilde looked much more like her younger siblings Sophie & Mapperl - she had the same fair colouring.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 16, 2006, 10:46:07 AM
This pic is definitely Helene. She had a very distinctive physical appearance (dark hair & small dark eyes, sharp features). Mathilde & her did not look at all alike IMO. I think Mathilde looked much more like her younger siblings Sophie & Mapperl - she had the same fair colouring.


Really ? Does somebody have a photo of Mathilde he could post so that we can see to which of her brother and sister she resemble the more ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2006, 03:02:16 PM
another one :   (http://img160.imagevenue.com/loc307/th_10910_428_122_307lo.jpg) (http://img160.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=10910_428_122_307lo.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 18, 2006, 10:07:39 AM
Thank you Laurra for these two photos of Mathilde.

Indeed, she really did not resemble Helene and rather had something of Sophie and Elisabeth in the look.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 05:08:46 AM
Very little of Elisabeth...Although like her sister, Mathilde loved clothes and wore them in great style.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 19, 2006, 05:27:01 AM
more of Sophie indeed ,Elisabeth was unique   ::) :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 07:44:44 PM
Yes...Sisi indeed was. Her other sisters followed her lead.  ;) There was a talk of Franz Josef marrying Mathilde after Sisi's death, but the plan was scraped very early on.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 20, 2006, 02:36:06 AM
On december 4th 1898, shortly after her mother's death, Marie Valérie wrote in her diary that she was having breakfast with her aunt Mathilde Trani. The archduchess was very sad, because Mathilde reminded her so much of her beloved mother. Later Marie Valérie wanted her father to marry Mathilde, but I don't think that the Emperor or Countess Trani were really interested in a second marriage.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Elisabeth on November 20, 2006, 10:39:34 AM
I've read somewhere that Empress Elisabeth "Sissi" of Austria had this strange, very modern-like obsession over her figure. Since people praised her for her beauty and her perfect figure, the Empress was determined to maintain her looks for her remaining years. She was on many diets and tried out many peculiar methods (such as putting a hot towel on her stomach before going to bed--she thought it would keep her stomach flat, thus maintaining her figure!). Although nobody realized at the time, most historians were aware of her suffering from an eating disorder (anorexia, I believe). So, she's not only growing more eccentric as she became older, she became more obsessed in preserving her beauty and figure!

She seems to have been the most severely anorexic, to the point of courting death, in the early part of her marriage. Have you read Brigitte Hamann's excellent biography of Elisabeth? Hamann provides contemporary accounts of Elisabeth's health while she was on her first trips away from the Viennese court and her husband. It seems that on more than one occasion, Sissi was so emaciated and malnourished that her legs swelled up from water retention (a classic sign of starvation, and not unusual among anorexics in the more severe stages of their disease), to the extent that she couldn't even walk. And there's no question but that Elisabeth showed all the other classic symptoms of anorexia nervosa as well - an obsession with restricting food intake, an obsession with weird diets, an obsession with her figure, an obsession with over-exercising. It's just a miracle that she survived as long as she did and did not collapse from either malnutrition or a weakened heart or both. I'm even more surprised that she was capable of bearing children, since amenorrhea (cessation of the menses) is yet another symptom of anorexia, and one from which I'm sure Sissi suffered off and on throughout her child-bearing years.

It's not unusual for the severity of the illness to vary over the course of an anorexic's lifetime, although we should always keep in mind that a significant percentage of anorexics actually die from their disease. Anorexia is one of the most serious forms of mental illness. This is why I don't think we should ever dismiss Sissi as a mere "silly" woman who was just trying to live up to the maxim that "one can never be too rich or too thin." She was seriously troubled and if she were alive today she would spend most of her time hospitalized.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 25, 2006, 04:00:35 AM
Elisabeth passed part of her childhood and her earliest youth to the castle of Possenhofen at the edge of the lake Starnberg, where the life was carefree and free there. Later, she was to always have a nostalgic memory of earliest youth and sound dear " Possi " too early left.


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/possi.jpg)
Sight of the castle of Possenhofen at the edge of the lake Starnberg.
Acquired in 1834 by the Duke Max, " Possi " was the idyllic place of earliest
youth of Elisabeth

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissigackel.jpg)
Elisabeth as a child with her two year old  younger brother Carl Theodore "Gackel"


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissibuste.jpg)
A bust of the young girl
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 25, 2006, 06:44:51 AM
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissibuste.jpg)
A bust of the young girl

... done by Anton Ritter von Fernkorn. There are some copies of this bust, but one of them can be seen at the Sisi Museum, Vienna.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2006, 07:35:10 PM
Another one in the bank that used to be the Max Palace in Murnich.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 27, 2006, 02:58:46 AM
Another one in the bank that used to be the Max Palace in Murnich.  ;)

Have you ever entered the Landeszentralbank at Munich? I didn't dare it ...  :-X
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 03:55:03 AM
Yes I did ! I took photos of the freizes that decorated the former palace. However I did not have the opportunity to see the room where the head was kept.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: royal_netherlands on December 01, 2006, 03:38:07 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/Royals%20past%20and%20present/neuungarbilder2.jpg)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/Royals%20past%20and%20present/neuungarbilder2.jpg

A wonderful painting of Empress Elisabeth and her Daughter Gisela.

RN :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on December 02, 2006, 07:42:43 AM
Two pictures of Elisabeth in Bavaria at the time of her meeting with Franz-Josef :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/engagementtime.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/youngsissi2.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2006, 05:34:54 PM
They look like they were painted shortly after the wedding... ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 04, 2006, 03:27:43 AM
Actually the first painting was Elisabeth's present to Franz Joseph for Christmas 1853.

I don't know which painter did the second one, but as you can see the Starnberger See at the background, I do think it was painted before the wedding, maybe also in 1853 at the time of her engagement.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Maximilano on December 04, 2006, 11:52:52 AM
Dear KarlandZita;

Yow write: The Duke Max was a simple man who hated the life of court and fled the official ceremonies. He preferred food with the large air, liked to fish, and adored over all the horses, at the point to make build a personal horse-gear.

It is amazing to note how the Duke passed on his values to her daughter Elizabeth. I wonder how long did she wear those dresses, probably only for the picture ;). I suppose they were not very confortable for Horseback riding.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Oliver on December 04, 2006, 12:06:21 PM
I'm currently reading a biography on Francis Joseph, it was interesting to read about how Archduchess Sophie, mother to Francis Joseph hoped to try and get him interesting in her sisters daughter Helene yet he ended up falling for the much younger and vivacious Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2006, 08:14:22 PM
Sisi had a charm that her elder sister didn't have. Subsequently I think Helene would have made a better Empress and sentiment wise suited Franz Josef much better.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2006, 08:16:14 PM
I think the riding habits for woman were lighter, althougfh Sisi had a tendency to wear tight-fitting riding habits to showcase she slim figure.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Elizaveta on December 05, 2006, 05:44:18 PM
Sisi had a charm that her elder sister didn't have. Subsequently I think Helene would have made a better Empress and sentiment wise suited Franz Josef much better.  ???

I agree, but I also read that Franz Josef was instantly attracted to Sisi's beauty before falling ever more for her charming character. Even when she was a teen, Sisi was more beautiful than Nene.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2006, 08:17:24 PM
Alas ! Looks are not everything.  :( The marriage was unhappy for both of them (although Franz Josef was devoted to her (despite the mistresses) all through his life).  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Elizaveta on December 06, 2006, 05:19:34 PM
Ahem! Franz Josef was really a strong man; he remained devoted to her and even when she pushed him away and told him to go find mistresses to satisfy him, he still loved her.  :-\
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 09:11:21 PM
No...He had a secret mistress (whom they had a bastard daughter) that he kept from her. It was Sisi's introduction of Katherina Schartt that ended that relationship. I think her name was Anna Namkin or something... ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 07, 2006, 05:24:00 AM
No...He had a secret mistress (whom they had a bastard daughter) that he kept from her. It was Sisi's introduction of Katherina Schartt that ended that relationship. I think her name was Anna Namkin or something... ???

Anna Nahowski ... there are hints that her daughter Helene was also Franz Joseph's child, but it's not for sure. You can read about this topic in the thread about the illegitimate children of the Emperor.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2006, 07:46:33 PM
Yes...That is why I said Franz Josef did took care of his sexual needs with this mistress (she was never an offical one like Katherina Schartt was). I think he is a very practical man indeed.  :P
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on December 09, 2006, 09:21:06 AM
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1323/sissitoutechoueoriginalri8.jpg)

Elizabeth
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Oliver on December 10, 2006, 04:52:18 AM
Its interesting to read about the turbulent relationship between mother-in-law and daughter, Archduchess Sophie really did make Elizabeth's life miserable, taking over the education of her children, dissaproving of Elizabeth if she didn't follow the ridgid rules of the Viennese royal court.

 It was also interesting to find out Elizabeth's love for Hungary and its culture :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2006, 08:37:49 PM
Well...Archduchess Sophia was totally wrong about Sisi's nature and qualifications as an Empress of the Austrian Empire. However it was the way she did it that annoyed the young woman so much. Sisi later understood that Sophia's deeds were not based upon malice against her personally but Sophia's dedication to duty. She asked Sophia's forgiveness upon her death bed.  :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Oliver on December 17, 2006, 11:56:29 AM
The death of Empress Elizabeth was so pointless, in the Francis Joseph biography I'm reading we've just come to the assassination of the Empress in Geneva. I just couldn't help but feel sad on how she died, Luigi Lucheni had meant to kill the Duke of Orleans but failing to find him he went out to kill the nearest aristocrat and ended up killing an Empress. :(

She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on December 17, 2006, 02:30:13 PM
(http://img273.imageshack.us/img273/8305/pdvd009lq6my3.jpg)

(http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/4099/pdvd010em3vh1.jpg)

Empress Elisabeth (I think that this pictures are in Gödollo)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: kain on December 17, 2006, 10:56:19 PM
yes two pretty images which were drawn from the dvd “Elisabeth Enigma of the Empress” with an aim of a personal work. These portraits are with the castle of Gödollo, in Hungary

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on December 18, 2006, 10:40:17 AM

imo her portraits are the most beautiful royal portraits ever and no other empress or queen was ever depicted as Elisabeth was --its somehow understandable as she was considered " the fairest of them all "  ::)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on December 29, 2006, 02:28:32 AM
The last must be a portrait at the beginning of his reign, I seem to remember that nice painting in a book, where it was said that  he was around eighteen there.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 02, 2007, 06:01:19 AM
(http://www.br-online.de/kultur-szene/kunstundkrempel/schatzkammer/foto/objekte/011028_17.jpg)

Duke Maximilian in Bavaria, by Schramm, 1834

This looks like a detail of a bigger painting. Do you have the complete one? I would love to see it.
I have only this detail. :-[
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: James_Davidov on January 04, 2007, 12:44:21 AM
Quote
She seems to have been the most severely anorexic, to the point of courting death, in the early part of her marriage. Have you read Brigitte Hamann's excellent biography of Elisabeth? Hamann provides contemporary accounts of Elisabeth's health while she was on her first trips away from the Viennese court and her husband. It seems that on more than one occasion, Sissi was so emaciated and malnourished that her legs swelled up from water retention (a classic sign of starvation, and not unusual among anorexics in the more severe stages of their disease), to the extent that she couldn't even walk. And there's no question but that Elisabeth showed all the other classic symptoms of anorexia nervosa as well - an obsession with restricting food intake, an obsession with weird diets, an obsession with her figure, an obsession with over-exercising. It's just a miracle that she survived as long as she did and did not collapse from either malnutrition or a weakened heart or both. I'm even more surprised that she was capable of bearing children, since amenorrhea (cessation of the menses) is yet another symptom of anorexia, and one from which I'm sure Sissi suffered off and on throughout her child-bearing years.

It's not unusual for the severity of the illness to vary over the course of an anorexic's lifetime, although we should always keep in mind that a significant percentage of anorexics actually die from their disease. Anorexia is one of the most serious forms of mental illness. This is why I don't think we should ever dismiss Sissi as a mere "silly" woman who was just trying to live up to the maxim that "one can never be too rich or too thin." She was seriously troubled and if she were alive today she would spend most of her time hospitalized.

Couldn't have put it better myself.  I am friends and am related to many girls (and an increasing number of males) who are afflicted with varying forms of this illness. . . it was the first thing that caught my attention regarding Sisi.  The classic character type is a white woman who is intelligent, beautiful and athletic. . . Its weird to think that over a century later she would present a tragic link between herself and the modern world.

xxjames
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 04, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/skenovat0002.jpg)

Elisabeth(1863) and Franz Joseph(1864) by Eduard von Engerth
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2007, 08:30:06 PM
Nice portraits. I wonder where are they now ?  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 05, 2007, 05:33:28 AM
I think that this portraits can be in the Czech Republic..but I´m not sure..
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 07, 2007, 08:40:50 AM
As of the advertisement of engagement of Franz Josef and Elisabeth emerged all kinds of subjects, portraits and miniatures idyllic celebrating the event :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/engagement.jpg)


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/figurines.jpg)


Popular engraving showing Franzie and his cousin with the Duke Max in a boat on the Lake Starnberg :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sujet4.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 09, 2007, 10:15:42 AM
The marriage proceeded in two times. On April 23, 1854, Elisabeth made her solemn entry in Vienna.

The following day, took place the religious ceremony in the church of Augustins where the Rauscher Prince-Archeveque-Cardinal blesses the husbands.

Below, the solemn entry in Vienna and various aspects of the ceremony :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/entree.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/wedding1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ceremony.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ceremonie.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/bis.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/celebration.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on January 09, 2007, 01:53:24 PM
Wonderful pictures! Thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on January 09, 2007, 02:00:39 PM
(http://i5.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/82/92/94b1_1.JPG)

Imperial family

This is an interesting picture of the imperial family. But I think it´s a bit strange that- apart from the empress and the emperor-the family of Gisela is to see there as well as Rudolfs little family (Stephanie, and the little daughter Elisabeth Marie), but not the family of Marie Valerie. It´s strange, because Marie Valerie is considered as the favourite daughter of Elisabeth. I do only see her, but not her children. Maybe it´s a stupid question, but why are they missing? Was she not married yet? (Which date has the painting?) Or may it be a part of a bigger painting with the children and the family of Valerie?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 10, 2007, 09:20:21 AM
If so, it would be lovely to see it in full size and bigger! ;)
Does anybody have it?

I'm quite sure that we can see the complete painting. Elisabeth Marie and Konrad, Gisela's younger son, were born in 1883. As they look really young on the picture, it was maybe done in 1887. Rudolf, who died in 1889, is also on the picture. Marie Valérie and Franz Salvator married in 1890. So Marie Valérie's husband as well as her children can't be on the painting. Besides that, Elisabeth's favourite daughter doesn't seem to be older than 20 on the picture.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on January 11, 2007, 01:48:34 PM
If so, it would be lovely to see it in full size and bigger! ;)
Does anybody have it?

I'm quite sure that we can see the complete painting. Elisabeth Marie and Konrad, Gisela's younger son, were born in 1883. As they look really young on the picture, it was maybe done in 1887. Rudolf, who died in 1889, is also on the picture. Marie Valérie and Franz Salvator married in 1890. So Marie Valérie's husband as well as her children can't be on the painting. Besides that, Elisabeth's favourite daughter doesn't seem to be older than 20 on the picture.


Thanks! The solution from a specialist! I should have done these reseaches by myself! ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 12, 2007, 12:53:24 PM
Portrait of the new Empress of Austria represented in front of the castle of Possenhofen :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/behindpossi.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 15, 2007, 02:51:44 PM
Young Elisabeth

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/skenovat0014.jpg)

Gisela, Franz Joseph, Elisabeth and Sophie

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/skenovat0016.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 21, 2007, 09:39:39 AM
Drawing representing the young Empress :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/youngempress.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 22, 2007, 04:26:19 AM
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/youngempress.jpg)

Franz Joseph didn't like this photograph at all. He said that Elisabeth looked like a monkey on it.  ::)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Maximilano on January 22, 2007, 11:39:00 AM
I somehow agree with Franz Joseph. There are far better pictures fom the empress. I haden' seen this one. Than kyou for sharing it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 25, 2007, 02:20:22 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Empress_Elisabeth_of_Austria_Sept._2006_001.jpg/384px-Empress_Elisabeth_of_Austria_Sept._2006_001.jpg)

Empress Elisabeth in 1859
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 25, 2007, 03:09:07 PM
(http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/EoA/images/fjandsisi.jpg)

F.J. and E., engagement in 1853

(http://img1.artprice.com/img/classifieds/original/140/140489_1.jpg)

Empress Elisabeth by Kittner, price is 1727 USD, you can buy it ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on January 26, 2007, 06:42:37 AM
http://web.artprice.com ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 27, 2007, 01:28:19 PM
Various portraits of the young Empress :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/youngsissi.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/veryyoung.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissiyoung.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sisi.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on January 27, 2007, 01:58:48 PM
very nice, where is the first one from? ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 28, 2007, 06:10:00 AM
very nice, where is the first one from? ;)

From an illustrated article on Sisi. I think that it's a detail of a representation of her marriage's celebration but I am not sure. ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on February 08, 2007, 10:58:28 AM
I like the first one of your set the best, KarlandZita.   :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 11, 2007, 08:39:37 AM
I like the first one of your set the best, KarlandZita.   :)

Thank you very much :)

Here are official portraits of the young Emperor and the young Empress of Austria :

Franz Josef :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/emperor2.jpg)

And Elisabeth :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/official1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissiformal2.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2007, 07:47:36 PM
The last one was not Sisi's best.  ::)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 16, 2007, 12:53:09 PM
The last one was not Sisi's best.  ::)


Yes, but Elisabeth is still very young at the time of this portrait which was painted one year after her marriage. She is then only seventeen years old and is not yet the legendary beauty which she will become later.

It is as possible as the artist did not completely succeed in reflecting on his work all the charm and all the grace of his majestic model.

But, generally, Sisi was much more beautiful in photograph than in portrait.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on February 16, 2007, 03:29:08 PM
The last one was not Sisi's best.  ::)


Yes, but Elisabeth is still very young at the time of this portrait which was painted one year after her marriage. She is then only seventeen years old and is not yet the legendary beauty which she will become later.

It is as possible as the artist did not completely succeed in reflecting on his work all the charm and all the grace of his majestic model.

But, generally, Sisi was much more beautiful in photograph than in portrait.

Yes, but I think that especially on this portrait she´s a beautiful majestic empress.
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/u.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 16, 2007, 04:49:43 PM
Yes, but I think that especially on this portrait she´s a beautiful majestic empress.
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/u.jpg)

This painting shows Elisabeth on her 25 year wedding anniversary in 1879. In Austria she was called "Silberbraut".
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 17, 2007, 08:27:33 AM
Indeed, some portraits of Elisabeth like this one and those of Winterhalter particularly are successful :o
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 18, 2007, 09:49:11 AM
I find particularly Elisabeth charming on this other famous portrait :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/portraitsissi1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on February 18, 2007, 02:07:14 PM
I find particularly Elisabeth charming on this other famous portrait :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/portraitsissi1.jpg)

This portrait is successful too, some portraits are good and more beautiful than photos. I like this portrait too.

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/ee.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 19, 2007, 09:29:42 AM
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/portraitsissi1.jpg)

This portrait is on the cover of Elisabeth Bilder ihres Lebens by Johannes Thiele, right?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 20, 2007, 08:20:13 AM
Possibly, but we can find this famous portrait reproduces a little everywhere. Mine comes from a book published in 1987 and entitled " Sissi, life and destiny of Elisabeth of Austria ", richly illustrated with 278 illustrations.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 23, 2007, 12:07:14 PM

This portrait is successful too, some portraits are good and more beautiful than photos. I like this portrait too.

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/ee.jpg)


Oh yes, indeed, this portrait very is successful. It reflects with wonder the attractive beauty and the majesty of Elisabeth. I have it in reproduction on a postcard which I bought when I went to Vienna a few years ago. It is one of my favourites. :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on February 24, 2007, 11:34:18 AM
Is that the Empress in her wedding dress, KarlandZita?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on February 24, 2007, 12:52:01 PM
i thought it was the coronation gown or something similar  :-\
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on February 25, 2007, 09:26:45 AM
or rather in gown of court or ball :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: archiduque Karlos on February 27, 2007, 05:29:56 AM
I have a question: Why Sissi does not take to bands and decorations in her pictures as the rest of queens of the time?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2007, 08:05:48 PM
I think she does on some state occations, but she wasn't photographed in them. She liked her image to be more of beauty, artistic and less formal.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gogm on February 27, 2007, 08:07:50 PM
The veil suggests it was court dress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 01, 2007, 07:45:10 PM
I think she loves veils too. Maybe it is a ball or court function. Sisi did not always conform to the norm.  ::)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on March 13, 2007, 03:16:40 PM
E. Elisabeth

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/skenovat0003.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on March 24, 2007, 09:52:34 AM
Photos from the same session of the young Empress :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissi28.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/young1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/6l.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on March 27, 2007, 06:14:16 AM
She seems indeed so sad on these photos !
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 27, 2007, 08:42:42 PM
She needed to get away and got her wish !
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on March 29, 2007, 11:20:26 AM
She seems indeed so sad on these photos !

Yep, and moving about like a sleepwalker. 
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on April 22, 2007, 09:53:54 AM
Engraving showing Sisi matured :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/gravure.jpg)


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Nika on April 23, 2007, 08:31:50 AM
You're right  ;) But only Sissi in her thirthies was called the most beautiful woman of her century  ;D I'm asking myself what it was that makes her so special? Her smile? Hair? Her eyes and the way she looks? I don't know, maybe all of it. I wonder what detail of Sissi has bewitched you?
PS. Sorry for my english, I know it's terrified  ;)

I found this two pics in german book 'Sissi. Gluck und Tragodie einer groben Kaiserin'. Don't know if it was before?

1862
(http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/69/skanuj2lh4.th.jpg) (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skanuj2lh4.jpg)

1863
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1320/skanuj3qf7.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on April 29, 2007, 05:32:48 AM
Some pics of Sisi with family :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/hasburgfamily.jpg)
Sisi with Archduchess Sophie, Archduke François-Charles, her husband Franz
Josef and her childs Gisela and baby Rudolf

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/family.jpg)
Sisi with Gisela and baby son Rudolf ; In background, a portrait of the missing
child Sophie

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/fam4.jpg)
Sisi with childs Gisela and Rudi and the Family of Franz Josef

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/austfamily.jpg)
Sisi, Franz Josef and their 3 children in the park of the Castle of Gödollo
in Hungary
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on April 29, 2007, 11:18:41 AM

Some portraits of Elisabeth

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/175b.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/176.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/200.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on May 01, 2007, 09:28:58 AM
Some more photos of the beautiful Empress :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/foto44.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/4a.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/5e.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/foto65a.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/89.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 01, 2007, 01:58:17 PM
that third picture is unique ::)  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: miki_nastya on May 05, 2007, 09:52:03 AM
 I wonder if Sissi and Franz Joseph were in love or if they feel any atraction for eachother when they get merried. Did Franz chose her to be his wife only for her beauty or he was atracted also by her character.
           
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Aliss_Kande on May 05, 2007, 10:10:26 AM
According to what I read in the Reluctant Empress, they were somewhat attatched early in their marriage.  However, that soon fell apart, at least from Sisi's side.  When Victoria of Prussia visited them, she described how Franz Josef hung on his wife's every word and was completely infatuated with her.  Sisi, in Victoria's opinion, did not reciprocate those feelings, at least not to the same degree.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yseult on May 05, 2007, 01:45:35 PM
I´m sure Franz Joseph was madly in love with Sissi.
About her...I can´t say the same.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on May 06, 2007, 05:38:48 PM
I think it is safe to say that Franz-Josef was madly in love with Sissi. After all, he defied the wishes of his mother to marry her, all his letters to her are very loving and he complains about how much he misses her. He was extremely anxious when she had a bad fall from a horse in Normandy and considered travelling to France to check on her condition himself. He also fulfilled her every wish and never complained about the massive expenses she incurred. According to his Aide de Camp, Count Paar, when Franz-Josef heard the news of Sissi's death he brust into tears and said "No one will ever know how much I loved her".

While Elisabeth was somewhat attracted to him in the early days, her feelings towards him soon cooled, as seemingly the physical and political side of the marriage did not appeal to her very much.

That, at any rate, is my reading of the situation.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on May 07, 2007, 03:36:19 PM
I think it is safe to say that Franz-Josef was madly in love with Sissi. After all, he defied the wishes of his mother to marry her,

Sophie wasn't actually unhappy about his marrying Elisabeth. It's one of those false legends created by the Sissi films. She didn't really mind whether he chose Helene or Elisabeth. She only seems to have thought of Nené as a bride because she was closer to her son in age and naturally the maturer one. Nevertheless, from the beginning the archduchess in fact considered Sisi the prettier of the sisters.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on May 07, 2007, 06:33:10 PM
Believe it or not, I've never seen any of the "Sissi" films! However, I gained that impression from "Elisabeth Kaiserin wider Willen" by Brigitte Hamann (page 33) and "The Eagles Die" by G.R. Marek (page 99)...both claim that Sophie "made all kinds of objections" when Franz-Joseph announced that he wished to marry Elisabeth instead of Helene
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 08, 2007, 02:49:31 AM
E. Elisabeth

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/skenovat0003.jpg)

This picture is one of my favourites!
Here is it in a little better quality.  ;)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/Elisabeth2.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 08, 2007, 02:55:20 AM


(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/175b.jpg)


The whole version of this portrait

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/Elisa2.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 08, 2007, 02:56:49 AM

A photo and a close-up..  ;)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/Elisa.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/Elisa3.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 08, 2007, 05:43:40 AM

Again in coronation gown..

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/sissi12.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on May 08, 2007, 03:35:53 PM
Believe it or not, I've never seen any of the "Sissi" films! However, I gained that impression from "Elisabeth Kaiserin wider Willen" by Brigitte Hamann (page 33) and "The Eagles Die" by G.R. Marek (page 99)...both claim that Sophie "made all kinds of objections" when Franz-Joseph announced that he wished to marry Elisabeth instead of Helene

Yes, it seems Sophie would have preferred Helene because she was the maturer one, but from her comments in her own diary, quoted in Kaiserin Wider Willen, it can be deduced she wasn't actually against her son choosing Elisabeth instead. She wasn't upset or disappointed or anything by his choice. She only asked him not to rush things, obviously making sure that her son was sure he had made the right choice. Sophie was actually overjoyed to see her son so happy. Where does Hamann say Sophie "made all kinds of objections"? Can't find the passage.
Here's a quotation from a letter written by Sophie just after the engagement: "Seit heute früh 8 Uhr ist unser heiß geliebter Franzi der unaussprechl. strahlend, glückliche Bräutigam der lieblichen Sisi, die gar zu lieb, innig u. glücklich u. gerührt ist u. immer voller heißer Thränen über ihrem lieblichen Gesicht, wenn sie, sich an mich anschmiegend wie ein Kind mir versichert, wie sie den Kaiser u. mich befriedigen will, oder wenn ich ihr sage, wie sie ihm recht seyn u. ihn beglücken kann . . . " (Praschl-Bichler, Ich bin bloß Corvetten-Kapitän, p.133). Sophie appears to be more enthusiastic about the engagement than the bride herself . . .
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on May 08, 2007, 06:24:56 PM
Hello Silja,

it was Marek who used the term: Sophie "made all kinds of objections". A great deal of Marek's account is based on the memoirs of Wilhelm von Weckbecker, Franz-Joseph's aide-de-camp at that time. At the bottom of page 32 Hamann (in Kaiserin Wider Willen) states: "Die Mutter versuchte, ihn auf die von ihr gewuenschte Braut hinzuweisen.....Es war nichts mehr zu aendern".

Obviously Sophie was pleased that he had found a bride, as she had been looking around of a suitable match for quite some time and before she decided on Ludovika's daughter(s) she had considered Princess Anna of Prussia and Princess Sidonie of Saxony, but the former was already engaged and was not prepared to change the arrangements, although Franz-Joseph found her very attractive. The latter did not appeal to him at all. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong)  originally Sophie had considered Sissi as a suitable bride for her third son, Karl-Ludwig.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on May 09, 2007, 03:20:59 PM

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong)  originally Sophie had considered Sissi as a suitable bride for her third son, Karl-Ludwig.

That's what I read too.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 10, 2007, 06:41:05 AM

more portraits  :)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E4.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 10, 2007, 06:41:48 AM

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E2.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E3.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 10, 2007, 06:42:37 AM

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E5.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E6.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 10, 2007, 06:45:42 AM

the young Elisabeth

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/139_49576_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 10, 2007, 11:25:58 AM
great pics  :)


(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/E2.jpg)


i prefer this one  ;)

(http://www.geocities.com/claudine1755/sissi/big/sissi13.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 10, 2007, 02:41:57 PM

You are right Laurra, the 2nd version is much more better  ;) but I like to have more versions..
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 10, 2007, 02:51:59 PM
i think the second is the original portrait  ;) :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 11, 2007, 12:55:17 AM
i think the second is the original portrait  ;) :)

I know, that the 2nd is the original. I meant the picture, which was 2nd posted.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 05:33:46 AM

Beautiful portrait in hunting-dress

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/18.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 12, 2007, 06:22:02 AM
wonderful ,never seen it before thank you for posting  ::)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 06:34:00 AM

It's from my most beautiful Album about Elisabeth- the book is hungarian.. I will post more  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 12, 2007, 08:14:43 AM
what album ?  ..should be great :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 08:26:06 AM

Elisabeth, Queen of the Hungarians
Rubicon Books, Budapest 2001 (144 p.)
ISBN: 963 00 8207 1

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/erzs1.gif)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 12, 2007, 08:30:59 AM
wow thats one pretty book indeed  :) Brigitte Hamann used that gorgeous painting for the cover of her album too..cant wait to see more pics  ;) :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 08:40:00 AM

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/26.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 08:41:48 AM

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/25.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 08:43:18 AM

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/29.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 12, 2007, 08:50:05 AM
I would be grateful, if somebody could help me with the following  portrait. I'm searching for better version. Thanks!  :)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/31.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/30.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gogm on May 13, 2007, 09:56:42 PM
Is this it?

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/bild6-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gogm on May 13, 2007, 10:04:52 PM
Here are some more. There are many Sisi sites on the Web!

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/29.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/sisi1021.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/sisi38.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/EmpressAustriaandLadies.png)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/Goldbrocade.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: gogm on May 13, 2007, 10:24:33 PM
It looks like I posted some duplicates. Here's more that I hope are not duplicates:

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/-1.jpg)
From NY Public Library images collection.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/Sissiincourtgown1863.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/Sissiincourtgown.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/Sissiinglitteringbodice.jpg)

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/Sissiinbustleandjewels1882.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 14, 2007, 02:04:31 AM
Is this it?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/bild6-1.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/bild6-1.jpg)

No, this is a famous painting of Gyula Benczur.

The portrait I've posted is also in the book of Raymond Chevrier abour Elisabeth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 16, 2007, 08:42:20 AM

Yes, the painter is the same: Gyula Benczúr. In 1898 Emperor Franz Joseph commissioned five portraits of Elisabeth for the former Empress' ladies in waiting. Two of them were painted by Gyula Benczúr. The one painted for Ida Ferenczy is to be found today in the Hungarian National Museum (Oil, canvas, 142 x 92,5 cm, inv. no. 1861), this is the FAMOUS ONE, which can be seen on the cover of Hamann's album, and on the cover of the Hungarian album (now there are plans of a second edition), too.
Now it's not on display, but it will be one of the highlights of a new temporary exhibition "The Cult of Elisabeth" in Gödöllő. (Opening: 7th June). In this year there are many programs because of three anniversaries: 1837, 1857 - Elisabeth's first visit to Hungary, 1867. There's an extra site with the huge variety of these programs (and also with a study written by me  :) - still only in Hungarian about the posthumous portraits of Elisabeth).
A new book will be also published written by the museologists of the palace. It will be a richly illustrated catalogue of the historical postcard collection of the palace showing the Hungarian places of memory of Elisabeth in the turn of the last century. It will be published in three languages. There will be an other exhibition in the Museum of Budapest History "Queen Elisabeth and the Royal Palace of Buda" - Opening: 8th June). And many more... (For example: on the long night of museums (23th June) Brigitte Hamann will visit the castle and lecture on Elisabeth etc. etc.)
Now we're writing an illustrated catalogue of the new Gödöllő exhibition (the text is finally RREEAADDYY), and another picture album is coming soon...
So,
the second portrait by Benczúr was painted for Irma Sztáray (also in 1899). Now it's lost, but there are some historical photos of it (I will send one a few hours later), and there's a replica (presumably also by Benczúr himself) in the Thurn und Taxis Kunstsammlungen in Regensburg, Germany. (oil, canvas, 138 x 94 cm, inv. no.: St.E. 492.) It was on display in the exhibition "Bavaria - Germania - Europa, Geschichte auf Bayerisch" in the Haus der Bayerischen Geschichte in Augsburg in 2000 (cat. no. 6.48.). The small colour detail posted before is from the official website of this exhibition. There's a photo showing the complete painting is colour on the website as well, but I was unable to download it. The BW detail postred before seems to be detail of the original painting.
(And there's a third portrait of Benczúr: a full length one showing E in the same dress with a dog - it was burnt during the WW II).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 16, 2007, 08:45:57 AM
Here are some more. There are many Sisi sites on the Web!

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/gogm/Sissi/EmpressAustriaandLadies.png)

Where is this reproduction from I wonder. It was originally published in the London Illustrated News in the 1880s, but I still haven't seen the original, only the one reproduced in the Hungarian press. And it seems to be the English version. Do you have a bigger version of it?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 16, 2007, 08:54:28 AM


(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/175b.jpg)


A few years ago it was in terrible condition (WW II as usual). Itr was exhibited that way in Autumn 2005 in an Austrian exhibition. Now it's restored: you can see the whole process here: http://www.bda.at/text/136/1435/8460/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 16, 2007, 02:08:37 PM

Similar, but not the same  :( Maybe the author is the same  ???
Yes, the painter is the same: Gyula Benczúr. In 1898 Emperor Franz Joseph commissioned five portraits of Elisabeth for the former Empress' ladies in waiting. Two of them were painted by Gyula Benczúr. The one painted for Ida Ferenczy is to be found today in the Hungarian National Museum (Oil, canvas, 142 x 92,5 cm, inv. no. 1861), this is the FAMOUS ONE, which can be seen on the cover of Hamann's album, and on the cover of the Hungarian album (now there are plans of a second edition), too.
Now it's not on display, but it will be one of the highlights of a new temporary exhibition "The Cult of Elisabeth" in Gödöllő. (Opening: 7th June). In this year there are many programs because of three anniversaries: 1837, 1857 - Elisabeth's first visit to Hungary, 1867. There's an extra site with the huge variety of these programs (and also with a study written by me  :) - still only in Hungarian about the posthumous portraits of Elisabeth).
A new book will be also published written by the museologists of the palace. It will be a richly illustrated catalogue of the historical postcard collection of the palace showing the Hungarian places of memory of Elisabeth in the turn of the last century. It will be published in three languages. There will be an other exhibition in the Museum of Budapest History "Queen Elisabeth and the Royal Palace of Buda" - Opening: 8th June). And many more... (For example: on the long night of museums (23th June) Brigitte Hamann will visit the castle and lecture on Elisabeth etc. etc.)
Now we're writing an illustrated catalogue of the new Gödöllő exhibition (the text is finally RREEAADDYY), and another picture album is coming soon...
So,
the second portrait by Benczúr was painted for Irma Sztáray (also in 1899). Now it's lost, but there are some historical photos of it (I will send one a few hours later), and there's a replica (presumably also by Benczúr himself) in the Thurn und Taxis Kunstsammlungen in Regensburg, Germany. (oil, canvas, 138 x 94 cm, inv. no.: St.E. 492.) It was on display in the exhibition "Bavaria - Germania - Europa, Geschichte auf Bayerisch" in the Haus der Bayerischen Geschichte in Augsburg in 2000 (cat. no. 6.48.). The small colour detail posted before is from the official website of this exhibition. There's a photo showing the complete painting is colour on the website as well, but I was unable to download it. The BW detail postred before seems to be detail of the original painting.
(And there's a third portrait of Benczúr: a full length one showing E in the same dress with a dog - it was burnt during the WW II).
So, here it comes
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/benczur_sztaray.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 16, 2007, 02:12:55 PM
605 x 927 px version: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/benczur_sztaray.jpg
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 16, 2007, 02:38:14 PM
beautiful  :) thank you very much dboro!!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 16, 2007, 02:43:16 PM
Sorry, it's going to be a bit personal, I've just realized that synnadene is Hungarian, too, so it's a bit funny that I wrote in English about programs that she(?) presumably know... But hope that there is someone who finds these informations useful...  :D  :D
On Sunday I sent an invitation to a Hungarian Elisabeth-forum, because we (The Institute of Habsburg Studies) oganised an infortainment, and as I can remember, there was a forum member called synnadene, too :D...
So she can read the same informations in Hungarian in my study on the new Gödöllő website...
http://www.kiralyikastely.hu/erzsebet/index.php?mid=45
I'm just reading my previous post... Five "of"s in one sentence  ;D  ;D I think it's better to read me in Hungarian... :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Kaiserin Sissi on May 17, 2007, 11:33:35 AM

Similar, but not the same  :( Maybe the author is the same  ???
Yes, the painter is the same: Gyula Benczúr. In 1898 Emperor Franz Joseph commissioned five portraits of Elisabeth for the former Empress' ladies in waiting. Two of them were painted by Gyula Benczúr. The one painted for Ida Ferenczy is to be found today in the Hungarian National Museum (Oil, canvas, 142 x 92,5 cm, inv. no. 1861), this is the FAMOUS ONE, which can be seen on the cover of Hamann's album, and on the cover of the Hungarian album (now there are plans of a second edition), too.
Now it's not on display, but it will be one of the highlights of a new temporary exhibition "The Cult of Elisabeth" in Gödöllő. (Opening: 7th June). In this year there are many programs because of three anniversaries: 1837, 1857 - Elisabeth's first visit to Hungary, 1867. There's an extra site with the huge variety of these programs (and also with a study written by me  :) - still only in Hungarian about the posthumous portraits of Elisabeth).
A new book will be also published written by the museologists of the palace. It will be a richly illustrated catalogue of the historical postcard collection of the palace showing the Hungarian places of memory of Elisabeth in the turn of the last century. It will be published in three languages. There will be an other exhibition in the Museum of Budapest History "Queen Elisabeth and the Royal Palace of Buda" - Opening: 8th June). And many more... (For example: on the long night of museums (23th June) Brigitte Hamann will visit the castle and lecture on Elisabeth etc. etc.)
Now we're writing an illustrated catalogue of the new Gödöllő exhibition (the text is finally RREEAADDYY), and another picture album is coming soon...
So,
the second portrait by Benczúr was painted for Irma Sztáray (also in 1899). Now it's lost, but there are some historical photos of it (I will send one a few hours later), and there's a replica (presumably also by Benczúr himself) in the Thurn und Taxis Kunstsammlungen in Regensburg, Germany. (oil, canvas, 138 x 94 cm, inv. no.: St.E. 492.) It was on display in the exhibition "Bavaria - Germania - Europa, Geschichte auf Bayerisch" in the Haus der Bayerischen Geschichte in Augsburg in 2000 (cat. no. 6.48.). The small colour detail posted before is from the official website of this exhibition. There's a photo showing the complete painting is colour on the website as well, but I was unable to download it. The BW detail postred before seems to be detail of the original painting.
(And there's a third portrait of Benczúr: a full length one showing E in the same dress with a dog - it was burnt during the WW II).


And where are the three over painting and for who was painting ?  Marie Festetics for exemple ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 18, 2007, 04:16:17 AM
So:
- for Ida Ferenczy: Gyula Benczúr, today: Hungarian National Museum
- for Irma Sztáray: Gyula Benczúr, today: location unknown, replica (presumably by Benczúr): Thurn und Taxis Kunstsammlungen, Regensburg
- for Marie Festetics: by József Koppay, today: Hungarian National Museum
- for Marie Therese Harrach, born Thurn und Taxis and
- for Leontin Andrássy, born Wenckheim: two similar portraits by Leopold Horovitz (I still don't know which is which, it needs more researches)
One of them appeared on the 1999 Kaiserhaus Auction of Dorotheum, now it can be found in a traditional Vienna wine cellar’s „museum” (Piaristenkeller, Franz Joseph Hutmuseum)
The other: location unknown
I'll send photos, too.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on May 19, 2007, 05:13:02 AM
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissiandsiblings.jpg)
Sisi posing with her siblings to Possenhofen

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/nenesissi.jpg)
Sisi and her sister Helene

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissisisters.jpg)
Elisabeth on horse with her two sisters Marie, Queen of Naples, and Mathilde,
Countess Trani
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 20, 2007, 01:30:24 AM
No ! The last one was of Queen Maria Sofia of Naples and her two Bourbon sisters-in-law.  :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on May 20, 2007, 06:03:32 AM

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/381728_76147_Sisi_und_Familie_braun.jpg)

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/kaiserpaar6.jpg)

Marie, Franz and Ferdinand

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/bout.jpg)

Sophie de Alencon as a teenie

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/sophie_charlotte.jpg)

Ludovika, Helene, Ludwig and Sisi

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/louise-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 20, 2007, 08:26:29 PM
Nice one of Sophie Alencon !  ;)

From the Prussian archievs ? Is it located in Berlin ?  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 22, 2007, 01:32:57 AM

Wonderful pics Rani and Laurra!  ;)

Can somebody post this one in better version?

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/7.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on May 22, 2007, 03:52:39 AM

Wonderful pics Rani and Laurra!  ;)

Can somebody post this one in better version?

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Synnadene/7.jpg)

(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/aaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 22, 2007, 04:19:32 AM

Veronika, it' great, I'm very grateful, thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on May 22, 2007, 04:20:56 AM

Can you tell me the source? It's from a book?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on May 22, 2007, 05:48:55 AM
Veronika what a lovely picture ..thank you  :-* deffinetly one of my favourite sittings  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on May 22, 2007, 07:04:19 AM
It´s from the web, I think. But I don´t know what site... ???I have lots of pictures from the web..so that I don´t know.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 25, 2007, 08:56:01 PM
Very lovely ! Where is it located ?  ???
Gödöllő :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 30, 2007, 05:32:27 AM

** - i apologize for the angle & quality of a couple of these, but they're the best i could do :-[ 

notice she's wearing the tiara she wore for the coronation in hungary.
i don't know what the occasion this portrait may have been documenting, but it was definately not her wedding!!  :P

(**as far as i know, this painting has never been published (or exhibited), so unfortunately i don't know the artist)
It’s a really big surprise to see the Rengensburg portrait by Benczúr here.
Last week in the Sisi portraits topic (Empress Sissi & Family More Pics) somebody had sent two small details of the Regensburg Benczúr portrait, and she was looking for a reproduction of the whole painting. Here’s my answer:
"In 1898 Emperor Franz Joseph commissioned five portraits of Elisabeth for the former Empress' ladies in waiting. Two of them were painted by Gyula Benczúr. The one painted for Ida Ferenczy is to be found today in the Hungarian National Museum (Oil, canvas, 142 x 92,5 cm, inv. no. 1861), this is the FAMOUS ONE, which can be seen on the cover of Hamann's album, and on the cover of the Hungarian album mentioned above, too (now there are plans of a second edition).
Now it's not on display, but it will be one of the highlights of a new temporary exhibition "The Cult of Elisabeth" in Gödöllő. (Opening: 7th June). (…)
So, the second portrait by Benczúr was painted for Irma Sztáray (also in 1899). Now it's lost, but there are some historical photos of it, and there's a replica (presumably also by Benczúr himself) in the Thurn und Taxis Kunstsammlungen in Regensburg, Germany. (oil, canvas, 138 x 94 cm, inv. no.: St.E. 492.) It was on display in the exhibition "Bavaria - Germania - Europa, Geschichte auf Bayerisch" in the Haus der Bayerischen Geschichte in Augsburg in 2000 (cat. no. 6.48.). The small colour detail posted before is from the official website of this exhibition. There's a photo showing the complete painting is colour on the website as well, but I was unable to download it. The BW detail posted before seems to be detail of the original painting.
(And there's a third portrait of Benczúr: a full length one showing E in the same dress with a dog - it was burnt during the WW II)."
The portrait painted for Countess Sztáray(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/benczur_sztaray.jpg)
The first portrait is something I'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE
It's a really strange one, the hair and the dress (and also the painting itself) suggests that it was made (or it shows Elisabeth) in the 1890s, but the dress is WHITE  ???. I think this is one of the strange 1890s/posthumous "compilations"  ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on May 30, 2007, 02:02:36 PM
The TuT famliy is addicted to photos and to their family :)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/franzthurn1893-3.jpg)

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/albert_maggie4.jpg)

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/albert_maggie17.jpg)

Is on the photo a painting of Max Emanuel?

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/albert_maggie16.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 30, 2007, 07:17:22 PM
The TuT famliy is addicted to photos and to their family :)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/franzthurn1893-3.jpg)


Is the portrait in the center the first one Brnbg posted?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 30, 2007, 08:47:30 PM
Yes I think so. The small statue seemed to be in the right place too.  ;)

Indeed...Gloria TNT once said they have so much of everything....The bathroom pictures are really over the top !  :o
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 31, 2007, 05:51:38 AM
And there's the famous portrait of the engaged couple, too...
And the statue indeed... (A small porcelain version of the one made by Hermann Klotz for the Elisabeth Memorial Church in Bp in 1907)...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on May 31, 2007, 11:11:37 AM
The TuT famliy is addicted to photos and to their family :)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/albert_maggie16.jpg)
I've just discovered an other statue of Elisabeth in the Th&T Collections: on the right you can see a small version of the Gödöllő monument by József Róna!
Are there more photos showing the original state of the collection?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on May 31, 2007, 12:09:29 PM
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/50522533.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dboro on June 02, 2007, 07:20:14 AM
The Benczúr portrait has arrived to Gödöllő. It's still wrapped to bubble-wrap, but it's good to see it again.  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: miki_nastya on June 03, 2007, 09:21:16 AM
     I read that Gyula Andrasy ( sorry if I didn't write well) was love of her life.I don't know if its true or its only a rumor.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on June 05, 2007, 05:24:12 AM
Wasn´t there that rumour that Marie Valerie could have been his daughter? For me completely nonsense, she does not look like him at all!!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on June 05, 2007, 05:40:00 AM
Wasn´t there that rumour that Marie Valerie could have been his daughter? For me completely nonsense, she does not look like him at all!!

Marie Valerie was the spitting image of Franz Josef! Just look at his early portraits.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on July 18, 2007, 04:23:27 PM
I am not sure whether is this photo just on forum, but I like it because is quite unusual:
Empress Elisabeth with Lily Hunady, Mathilda Windschgraetz and sister Helene on Madeira:
http://cisarovna-sisi.wz.cz/a_sisi28.html
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 18, 2007, 07:51:16 PM
It was not Helene her sister, but Helene ("Nene")'s cousin-in-law, Helene von Taxis, who was Sisi's lady-in-waiting.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on July 19, 2007, 12:40:00 PM
Yes, it's true. I've just realised it. She had same name like her sister, therefore this confiusion. :-\
It seemed me strange, that the woman doesn't look very simular like her sister.
But Helene (her sister) visited her once in Madeira, I think.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 19, 2007, 07:38:49 PM
Yes...As Franz Josef's urging to ask Sisi to come home.
Helene von Taxis ladter married a Count Kinsky and left the Empress's service.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on July 20, 2007, 03:57:19 AM
Elisabeth beuty was something uniqe.
I think, that Gisela and Rudolf were mix between Sisi and Franz Joseph. But Marie Valerie resembled more on Franz Joseph.
Especialy her features of face remind her father. Presumably only her eyes were similar to her mother's one. I am not sure with their first child Sophie, because she died too soon.

Strange, I always had the feeling that Gisela comes more out - especially around the eyes -like her father Franz Joseph, whereas Marie Valerie did more inherit her mother`s look, the hair and eyes etc. Maybe her mouth and her nose are that of the emperor. But it seems every person sees it differently ;)
The first born Sophie (on the only picture that I know) is very blonde and has blue eyes, so she rather reminds me of Franz Joseph!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on July 21, 2007, 05:10:49 AM
Engraving with the glory of Kronprinz Rodolphe in his small cradle. He had been born on August 21, 1858, a little more than 4 years after the marriage of his parents :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/1858b.jpg)

The Imperial couple walking familiarly with his children and his dog :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/efzch.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on July 21, 2007, 09:28:12 AM
Wonderful and interesting pictures.  ;)

I wonder, if the man on the left side of the first picture of the last posts is Rudolf I., the first Habsburg ruler on the German throne. It seems so, I am pretty sure, because the crown on the picture in my view is definitely the one of Rudolf I (1218-1291), who died and is buried in Speyer (I have seen his tomb ;)), and if I see it correctly it`s also written unter the crown that this is Rudolf I. Does anybody know, if Rudolf, son of Franz Joseph and Sisi, was named after this first Habsburg king? I think, it`s probable, but I am not totally sure. Does anybody know it for sure? I seem to remember that there was once a picture, where Rudolf II was dressed as his ancestor Rudolf I., but I can't remember, which occasion it was and why...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 21, 2007, 12:10:00 PM
Wonderful and interesting pictures.  ;)

I wonder, if the man on the left side of the first picture of the last posts is Rudolf I., the first Habsburg ruler on the German throne. It seems so, I am pretty sure, because the crown on the picture in my view is definitely the one of Rudolf I (1218-1291), who died and is buried in Speyer (I have seen his tomb ;)), and if I see it correctly it`s also written unter the crown that this is Rudolf I. Does anybody know, if Rudolf, son of Franz Joseph and Sisi, was named after this first Habsburg king? I think, it`s probable, but I am not totally sure. Does anybody know it for sure? I seem to remember that there was once a picture, where Rudolf II was dressed as his ancestor Rudolf I., but I can't remember, which occasion it was and why...

Franz Joseph loved traditional names. Gisela was named after the wife of Stephan I., the first Christian king of Hungary, and the Rudolf was given his name in memory of Rudolf I. If Marie Valérie had become a boy, Elisabeth would have called her "Stephan".
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Aliss_Kande on July 21, 2007, 03:02:13 PM
Stupid question, but how is Gisela pronounced?  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Janet_W. on July 21, 2007, 04:15:29 PM
Actually that's a very good question, Aliss; I also like to pronounce names correctly.

My mother used to speak of a friend from Germany named Gisela . . . she pronounced it as "Gee-si-la."
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 22, 2007, 02:51:10 AM
Stupid question, but how is Gisela pronounced?  ???

Franz Joseph called his daughter Gisella.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on July 22, 2007, 03:06:35 AM
Wonderful and interesting pictures.  ;)

I wonder, if the man on the left side of the first picture of the last posts is Rudolf I., the first Habsburg ruler on the German throne. It seems so, I am pretty sure, because the crown on the picture in my view is definitely the one of Rudolf I (1218-1291), who died and is buried in Speyer (I have seen his tomb ;)), and if I see it correctly it`s also written unter the crown that this is Rudolf I. Does anybody know, if Rudolf, son of Franz Joseph and Sisi, was named after this first Habsburg king? I think, it`s probable, but I am not totally sure. Does anybody know it for sure? I seem to remember that there was once a picture, where Rudolf II was dressed as his ancestor Rudolf I., but I can't remember, which occasion it was and why...

Franz Joseph loved traditional names. Gisela was named after the wife of Stephan I., the first Christian king of Hungary, and the Rudolf was given his name in memory of Rudolf I. If Marie Valérie had become a boy, Elisabeth would have called her "Stephan".


Thank you a lot to make it clear, I was not completely sure about that point. I always asked myself about the name Gisela and where it came from, I did not know that she was named after the wife of the first Christian king of Hungary. It's very interesting that they took the name for those old reigning figures I always wondered, why the names of Franz Josephs children were a bit different from the others, because during all the centuries those names were not very common among the Habsburg family. Many of those "dynastic names" were different (like Maria Anna" or others like that) Was it Elisabeths or Franz Josephs wish to name their children like that?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 22, 2007, 11:26:39 AM
Was it Elisabeths or Franz Josephs wish to name their children like that?

As far as I know, nobody asked Elisabeth how she wanted to name her first three children. She only chose the name Marie Valérie.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on July 23, 2007, 04:59:02 AM
Was it Elisabeths or Franz Josephs wish to name their children like that?

As far as I know, nobody asked Elisabeth how she wanted to name her first three children. She only chose the name Marie Valérie.

It must have been hard for her, was it simply decided over her head by her husband and/or her aunt and mother- in -law Sophie? I fear so.  :-\
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 23, 2007, 05:06:26 AM
Indeed ! That prompt her to take off...away from it all. I think she was the first Austrian Royal to gain independence from the court system.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Nika on July 30, 2007, 04:40:41 PM
Hi, perhaps it'll sounds silly, but when I look closely to this two pictures I noticed that Sissi and Sophie have the same hand gesture, pulling out the finger. I rember I've seen a picture with some Sissi's staff after her death, and between them there was a little pendant with a hand, with the same finger's gesture. Did you ever think about it? Is this mean something? Or maybe it's only my too big imagination  ???

(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1682/sophiecd9.th.jpg) (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sophiecd9.jpg)(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4286/sisiue9.th.jpg) (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sisiue9.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 30, 2007, 07:45:23 PM
No...Sisi's sisters all like to copy Sisi from dress to the way she walked. In fact Maria Sofia was often mistaken in photos for Sisi.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: dmitri on July 30, 2007, 11:20:17 PM
Yes Sissi was the orginal and the best. As for the title of the the book mentioned initally in this thread I had to laugh. What was anarchistic about Sissi? I never saw any evidence of her throwing bombs. The closest she came to an anarchist was being murdered by one.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2007, 12:20:41 AM
Maria Sofia did rode up her horse in the midst of firing at Gratea.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 08, 2007, 07:47:35 AM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0008-1.jpg)


I found this picture in one of my books, and I would like to know, if anybody could tell me more about the reationship of the people to each other. How was the relationship of Leopold II., father in-law of crownprince Rudolf, to Franz Joseph and Sisi, and did Sisi come along with Henriette etc?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 08, 2007, 01:02:45 PM
I would like to know more details about their relationship as well. But according what I read in Marie Valerie's diary, relationship between these two families wasn't very warm. At least Marie Valerie didn't see in belgian royal couple nice people. She wrote, that King was very unsympathetic and Queen freezing cold.
Anyway Leopold II. wasn't nice man in common and propably not many people could considered him for sympathetic person.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 08, 2007, 01:24:25 PM
I already expected something like that, because I knew that Leopold II never allowed his other daughter Clementine to marry Victor Napoléon, whome she loved so much, as he was a Bonaparte prince, and she had to wait until the end of his life to marry him. It seems Leopold did not have much understandig for his own children. About Henriette I don't know, but yes, I have also heard, she was rather a cold person, too, but maybe also as a result of being married with such an patriarchalic person..??
So I would imagine that the relationship to the Habsburg relatives might have been difficult as well. But I don't know it. I only know, none of Leopolds children did have a happy maariage. On the picture they look rather distanced, only Stephanie seems to smile (why??), but surely such pictures are nor reality.
It fits to the things, which Marie Valerie wrote about that...thanks for the info...
Has anybody more??
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on October 08, 2007, 03:11:47 PM
here a painting of Fançois-Joseph (a painting now in France - I guess presented to Napoléon 3 after the visit of F-J to the parisian Great Exhibirion in 1867)


(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5272/fjchevalmurvb9.th.jpg) (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fjchevalmurvb9.jpg)


Your most devoted
Mr Canard

P.S. I have been obliged to work Sunday and to-day so I will continue the other threads ( journeys, mistresses, nicknames) to-morrow
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 09, 2007, 01:37:14 AM
here a painting of Fançois-Joseph (a painting now in France - I guess presented to Napoléon 3 after the visit of F-J to the parisian Great Exhibirion in 1867)


(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5272/fjchevalmurvb9.th.jpg) (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fjchevalmurvb9.jpg)


Your most devoted
Mr Canard

P.S. I have been obliged to work Sunday and to-day so I will continue the other threads ( journeys, mistresses, nicknames) to-morrow


It's very nice, but why was it presented to NIII after that exhibition?
And do you maybe know more on the relationhsip of NIII and family with Sisi and FJ, and also about the belgians?
As I once wrote, Eugenie and Sisi seemed to come along quite good with each other...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: pouvoir aux canard on October 09, 2007, 01:59:49 PM
Yes, my dear Eric Lowe, you are right, I would have wrote something more on the painting. A very beautiful one, and not common , of the austrian emperor...
So the title is François Joseph, empereur d'Autriche, à cheval.  
the painter is Otto von Thoren (1828-1889) (I did no more research on the painter)
the painting is from 1866 and belongs to the French State. He is in Paris, Musée d'Orsay.

Now my dear dear Britt, WHY ? it was a common practice between sovereins to exchange paintings as gifts particularly for a visit. This painting was painted  in 1866 and now is in France, as a gift of F-J to Napoléon 3 , as a thank for inviting him in France. to the Great Exhibition of 1867...
This habit is one of the reasons why paintings of Non French Sovereigns are remaining in french museums and castels. (the other one is that Napoléon 1er stoled some thousands of paintings from europeans castels and collections !)

About Sisi  and Eugénie, remember my dear that I am not a specialist of these two marvellous empresses. On my point of view, anyway, they do not have had close relationships before the late eighties of the eighteen century, where they met on the Cote d'Azur, without any official duties (as Eugénie was no more a sovereign an Sisi was deeply depressed). I guess they met regularly but not often. (each year? each two year?). Before that time they met in SALZBURG (on july 1867?) (you know the day I suppose ) for very few days and in rather sad circumstances (Maximilian was killed in Mexico, the two empires had huge economic problems, etc). People though (hoped) in a competition between them but they had a good understanding.

Unfortunately, I have lo leave the Forum
best thanks and regards to Eric and Britt


your Mr Canard
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 14, 2007, 10:48:37 PM
Some pics of Sisi with family :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/hasburgfamily.jpg)
Sisi with Archduchess Sophie, Archduke François-Charles, her husband Franz
Josef and her childs Gisela and baby Rudolf

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/family.jpg)
Sisi with Gisela and baby son Rudolf ; In background, a portrait of the missing
child Sophie

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/fam4.jpg)
Sisi with childs Gisela and Rudi and the Family of Franz Josef

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/austfamily.jpg)
Sisi, Franz Josef and their 3 children in the park of the Castle of Gödollo
in Hungary

i always thought that the first picture was of the little Archduchess Sophie and Gisela was the baby?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 15, 2007, 10:30:49 AM
You are right, Cambria. On first picture are realy Sophie and Gisela- two eldest daughters of imperial couple.
I know this picture very well from many books.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 17, 2007, 01:40:38 AM
Maybe not a nice question...but has anyone got a good picture of the murder scene of Elisabeth at Geneva ?

I haven't been there, but I have read there is also a monument or sign reminding on her death. I read as well that she simply went on after being attacked and then broke together some time later, was taken back to the hotel "Beau Rivage", where she died then. Tragic! There is something strange about it, as there was just 20th anniversary of a german politician's death, who was found dead in the same hotel after a scandal, murder is more and more speculated as well, even when the official reason of death was suicide (I do not believe so)

Has anyone a picture of Elisabeths death or does anyone have a photo of the sign of memorial?

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on October 17, 2007, 06:56:32 AM
Gosh Britt, that is an odd coincidence! I never realised that Uwe Barschel's death (suicide or murder??) took place in the Hotel Beau Rivage, although I was aware that he died in Geneva. It would sort of put me off staying in that hotel!!

With regard to the pictures that Yseult so kindly posted: I think the last one that appears to show Empress Elisabeth on her death-bed is not real. I heard somewhere that it actually originates from a film or something...I'm not sure of the details, but perhaps somebody else knows and could explain???? To the best of my knowledge (and as always I stand open to correction on this), there were no photos taken of Elisabeth after her death. I do however, have a photo of Elisabeth's coffin being carried out of the Hotel Beau Rivage and placed in a hearse for the first stage of its journey back to Vienna. However, I have no scanner so am unable to post it here....sorry!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 17, 2007, 10:18:15 AM
hmmm....Perhaps you may be right Greenowl....whenever i see that picture of Sisi on her deathbed i always think that it doesnst look like her.....it may be though, because i thought that sisi stopped having pictures taken of her after she got older. so we dont really have to many pics of her when she was younger as there were when she was younger.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 17, 2007, 11:37:15 AM
Hi Greenowl,

Even if off topic, yes, I ment him. For my part I think facts rather speak for the contrary than for suicide, there is something deeply wrong at that case. That is my opinion, even I was a child, when it happened, but that death picture in TV never left me. Yes, he was found dead in room 317 in the hotel, in the bath tub, but with clothes on, watch and everything, it was clearly an impoisoning. And I think Sisi also died inside the hotel, or am I wrong? I think, she was attacked outside and taken back to the hotel(room? Which one?), where she died. But I am no expert, so please correct me...I just wondered, if anyone has a picture of the murder happening? I seem to remember that drawings of the scene exist.

Yseult,

Thanks for the family pictures! They are just wonderful. I think, there were some doubts on the identity of the picture of Gödöllö, some thought the little girl might be the first born Sophie, but in all books that I ever saw it was clearly said that this is Marie Valerie, whereas the older girl is Gisela, and surely the boy Rodolph.
And about the death picture: It really looks like from a movie. From which time and which film is it?
A pity that you cannot send the pic you have, Greenowl...Generally I think it's good that there do no murder photos exist, it has something barbaric, if reporters firstly run to klick klick klick dead people, death is a private thing, so my opinion.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on October 17, 2007, 03:41:21 PM
Yes, the Barschel case is really odd. I think the state Prosecutor described it as "a murder made to look like a suicide or a suicide made to look like a murder", which seems very apt. I wonder will we ever learn the truth about what really happened? You are correct about Empress Elisabeth. She collapsed on the ferry, which then changed its course and returned to Geneva. The unconscious Empress was carried back to the hotel and placed on the bed in the room she had left just a short time earlier. Two doctors and a nurse who had been attending to one of the other guests volunteered their services, but could do nothing. A priest was sent for and performed the last rites of the Catholic Church, without Elisabeth regaining consciousness. She died at 2.40 PM (14h40), exactly an hour after she had walked on to the ferry with the wound in her heart. I have no idea what her room number was at the Beau Rivage.....it would be an odd coincidence if it was 317!!!! I think I was in the Hotel Beau Rivage myself on one occasion when I was very young (which would have been about nine years before the Barschel incident). I remember accompanying someone to Geneva to view antiques (Russian silver if I remember correctly) prior to the auction, and they were displayed in a hotel at the lake, which I think was the Beau Rivage. However, it is so long ago that my memory may be failing me and I have little recollection of the hotel.

Hopefully somebody will be able to identify the origin of the "death picture", as I am almost sure that I read somewhere (maybe even on this forum??) that it was a still from a film. Britt, I agree with you about death being a private matter and I, too, am glad that there are no murder photos, although there are, of course, a host of "artist's impressions" (i.e. drawings) of the tragic event.

While we are on the subject of art: how is your work coming along? Have you done any new paintings or drawings recently?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yseult on October 17, 2007, 03:48:59 PM
Greenowl, Cambria and Britt...I have read your post. Really I can´t identify the origin of the "death picture". I found it in a website as a picture of empress Elisabeth dead with her last hungarian lady-in-waiting, countess Szataray. I supposed the picture was "a real one", not an image captured from a movie...

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 17, 2007, 04:43:52 PM
i always thought so too,
I saw that image in a book once  :o
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on October 17, 2007, 04:47:55 PM
Yseult, the picture is often included in books and believed to be a real one. I actually have it open in front of me now, in a book entitled "Sissi, vie et destin d'Elisabeth d'Autriche" by Raymond Chevrier (published in 1987, ISBN 2-8307-0050-3). That was why I was so fascinated when I read somewhere (I wish I could remember where) that it was not real. Of course having said that, what I read could be incorrect!! In the larger version of the photo in the above-mentioned book there is a nurse standing at the foot of the bed. I have looked at the photo/picture credits in said book, and as far as I can make out, that particular photo is credited to "Roger-Viollet" (which means nothing to me). Does anyone have a photo of the Elisabeth's lady-in-waiting, Countess Szataray? It would be interesting to compare the real Countess to the lady in the photo.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on October 17, 2007, 04:55:42 PM
This is what I found out about "Roger-Viollet" from their own home page on the Internet:

In 1938, Hélène Roger-Viollet and her husband, Jean Fischer, established “la Documentation Photographique Générale Roger-Viollet”, in a small store located 6 rue de Seine in Paris.
The original collections included the Léopold Mercier and Laurent Ollivier archives (acquired with the premises) as well as the life-work of two passionate amateur photographers, Henri and Ernest Roger, Hélène’s father and uncle.
Over the years, the agency acquired various collections composing a fabulous historical testimony: world events and small crafts, fine arts, science, politics and everyday life, exotic journeys and streets of Paris, portraits of celebrities as well as snapshots of unknown passers-by…
The collections also document over a century of photographic history : from the works of Ferrier-Soulier (French Second Empire’s fine arts), Neurdein & Lévy (historical and geographical reports - 1880 to 1918), Maurice-Louis Branger ( war and everyday life reports – 1900-1930), Pierre Choumoff (Russian immigration in Paris in the 20s and 30s), Jacques Boyer (political and scientific life), Albert Harlingue (French and Parisian life, 1910-1950) or Laure Albin-Guillot (fashion and advertising 1920-1960), to the portraits from the Boris Lipnitzki studio (performing arts from the 20s to the 70s)...
Now a reference historical archive in Europe, Roger-Viollet distributes a collection of over 8 million photographs and represents some of the major International photographic heritage agencies in France, whilst providing images to the press and publishing industry as well as the multi-media, television, cinema and advertising sectors.

However, it does not solve the mystery of the origin of the photo of the dead Empress!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 18, 2007, 09:15:00 AM
Here is photo of countess Sztaray: http://cisarovna-sisi.wz.cz/o_irma.html
But unfortunately not very clear :-(.
I've heared about photo of death Elisabeth, that is from movie as well. Before I had thought, that is normal real picture, because I sow it in a book or on webside among real photos of Sisi. I wonder witch movie it could be. Does anybody know?
Empress also didn't have open coffin during her funeral. I don't know who of her surroundings (perhaps one of her ladys in waiting) sow her as a death, but her features was quite changed.
I doubt, that any of her post mortem pictures are available. I think, they have never been taken.
Although pictures like that weren't so unusuall in 19. or early 20. century. You can find lot of post mortem pictures also between royals in that time. Personally, I don't like this kind of photos. It seems me a bit odd.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 18, 2007, 10:44:41 AM
yes they are really morbid looking.....normal people used to have post mortem pictures of them as well....it always seemed very morbid to me...i heard there used to be a superstition about that but i dont remember what it was....ill ask my Great Grandma :-\
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 20, 2007, 07:25:56 AM
yes they are really morbid looking.....normal people used to have post mortem pictures of them as well....it always seemed very morbid to me...i heard there used to be a superstition about that but i dont remember what it was....ill ask my Great Grandma :-\

The best source for post- mortem pictures is the Paul Frecker collection on the net. Very easy to find. the pictures were always very moving to me. It's a strange custom that the people used to sell post mortem CDVs at that time. But I haven't ever seen such a picture of ELisabeth, and I think it's better so...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 22, 2007, 05:13:31 AM
But I can`t look at them very often. It's a strange feelings to see all the dead people, especially children. :'(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on November 06, 2007, 09:44:12 AM
Drawing representing the young Empress :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/youngempress.jpg)

I love this drawing *points up* !!!  Have seen the actual photo; it's awful.  Below is one of my favorite Elisabeth photos.  It somewhat captures her free spirited nature.  Excuse me if someone else has already posted this and if it's too big.

(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q276/coker10/hungariancoronation18672.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on November 06, 2007, 10:56:45 AM
ohhh i never seen that one before!
thanks Alix of Wales! ;D :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on November 07, 2007, 03:27:12 PM
Concerning the last one...I could not walk with that cloth....! ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Maximilano on November 20, 2007, 07:03:26 PM
I see many talk about how he or she changed in old age. Actually there were not to many that made it to old age as the Kaiser Franz Joseph did.... With whom are you comparing them? Of course a young man of 25 looks nicer than an old one with 86! On top of that people were very very old with 86.

Today there are more than 3 million Americans over 100 and there will be 2,5 million by 2035! There were very few Gentlemen wiith 86 in November 1916
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on November 21, 2007, 07:26:27 AM
Of course Maximiliano, everybody looks absolutely diferent in his/her 20s and his/her 80s.

But age 86 is still over average. I 'm not sure(it depends on each country) but average age for women in Europe is  a bit unter 80, for men around 75. But maybe I am mystaken.
In 19. or early 20. century it was sure less usual then nowdays, but also in that time existed many people over 80-
Emperor Wilhelm I. was 91, Qeen Victoria 82, and also FJs son-in-low Prince Leopold died when he was 84.

By the way and for example my grandma has been 86 this year as well, but my grandfather passed away 15 years ago when he was 75.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 25, 2007, 09:34:00 AM
Sisi had inherited her passion for horses. Amazon remarkable, she willingly participated in hunts in court and she came to stay in the saddle six hours.

Here differently represented in painting, photo, drawning or etching, in her favorite exercise :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/fze.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/onhorse.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissifranz.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/g.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/horse.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sh.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/eventail-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on November 26, 2007, 07:48:55 AM
Wonderful riding pics. Thank you. It really seems, she liked riding a lot, and as Eric said, she looks very good and elegant on horses. The last picture is a bit strange, it seems she did not want to be photographed there or something. Did anyone of her relatives inherit her riding passion? (brothers, sisters, children?)


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on November 26, 2007, 09:52:48 AM
I pressume that last picture is from her later years when she disliked taking photos of her, because she didn't want so that people sow her face.
She hated ageing and tried to stay young for ever in people's mind.
I would like to know wether is her fourth picture from her hunting season in GB, or from Godollo. Palace in distance reminds me Godollo a lot.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2007, 08:38:06 PM
I think the huge leather fan still survives in some museum.  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on November 27, 2007, 05:28:42 PM
Wonderful pictures, especially as I love horses. Thanks for posting them.

Princess Susan, I think the palace in the fourth picture is Godollo in Hungary.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on December 30, 2007, 09:57:48 AM
On June 8, 1867 Franz Josef and Elisabeth were crowned King and Queen of Hungary in the cathedral Szent Istvan of Budapest.

The ceremony takes place with a brilliance exceptional.

Below the Cathedral, the procession and two aspects of the ceremony :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/cath.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/cort.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/cer1867.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sf67.jpg)

The new Queen of Hungary in her coronation dress :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissiformal.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/1867-1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/coronation1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/coronationrobe.jpg)

The imperial couple in front of the Royal Castle Gödöllo :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/grsfj1867.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on December 30, 2007, 01:21:25 PM
She looked so beautiful in her coronation gown ..deffinetly my favorite pictures of Elisabeth :-)

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/342/foto53kxv8.th.jpg) (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foto53kxv8.jpg)


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on December 30, 2007, 02:42:37 PM
she had beautiful hair....i heard it took hours to fix each day...is that true?
 ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on December 30, 2007, 05:49:07 PM
Yes, Cambria Coheed, that is quite correct. According to Brigitte Hamann, the daily care of Elisabeth's hair rarely took less than three hours. Her hair was washed once every three weeks (seems an awfully long interval between washes to me), an operation which took a whole day.

Her favourite hairdresser was Fanny Feifalik (nee Angerer), who served the Empress in this capacity for about 30 years.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on December 31, 2007, 02:37:51 AM
KarlandZita, thank you for the recent pictures. They are just wonderful, I enjoyed to see them. Especially the last with the family was new to me!
Greenowl, how strange with Sisis hair, I don't want to imagine what I would look like, if I washed my hair only once in three weeks... ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on December 31, 2007, 04:03:06 AM
Yes Britt, I agree! I find that fact very difficult to comprehend, as apart from looking dreadful I would feel most uncomfortable if I did not wash my hair at least once every three DAYS. However, according to Brigitte Hamann, the hair washing was a very elaborate procedure and involved bottles of cognac, numerous raw eggs etc etc, and perhaps these ingredients somehow maintained the hair in a clean, pleasant and non-greasy state for a longer period of time??? ODD!!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mari on December 31, 2007, 06:24:51 AM
 Beautiful pictures....She looked so beautiful and regal....as to her hair...I have read many accounts of Women in that era and they brushed their hair 100 strokes and did all kind of things including certain rinses as has been mentioned. But as you can see her hair looks good. I guess its comparable to my Mother who when staying in the Hospital due to an illness went about that length of time and to the amazement of all of us her hair stayed shiny, thick and curly. Looked like it had just been fixed. :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on December 31, 2007, 07:25:57 AM
Last family picture reminds me one, witch I've seen in Brigitte Hamann's book about Crown Prince Rudolph. There was also little Marie Valerie, if I don't confuse it with any diferent book
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 06, 2008, 06:03:04 AM
Erzebet in Magyar dress :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/magyar.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/erzerbet.jpg)

Beautiful portrait of the new Queen of Hungary :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/erzbet.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on January 07, 2008, 03:02:11 AM
Wonderful paintings, nice, thank you, KarlandZita! You always send the most wonderful pictures!  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 13, 2008, 12:54:24 PM
Elisabeth in 1867 in dress ball :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/gd.jpg)

The mode of crinolines is coming to an end...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2008, 10:43:20 PM
I think the portrait was painted of Sisi as a very young girl. She kind of get either more bejelled or darkly dressed as she matures... ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on January 19, 2008, 06:35:25 AM
I think the portrait was painted of Sisi as a very young girl. She kind of get either more bejelled or darkly dressed as she matures... ???


My book on Elisabeth legend this portrait as well dating back to 1867 when the Empress is in her thirtieth year.

Now, in the case of a painting, the painter was able to voluntarily rejuvenate his august model.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on January 26, 2008, 01:22:36 PM
KarlandZita, thank you for the recent pictures. They are just wonderful, I enjoyed to see them. Especially the last with the family was new to me!
Greenowl, how strange with Sisis hair, I don't want to imagine what I would look like, if I washed my hair only once in three weeks... ;D

I'm trying to get my hair long again--there's been more than a few time's wanted to Sissi type hair length. That happens when a pic of her is not in my sight--When a Sissi pic is, pop up of two words:  No way

I forgot which book, website I got this from:  Sissi's hair was eleven pounds & she often suffered headaches.  I'm sure she didn't look forward to wearing ornate crowns.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on April 09, 2008, 12:22:49 AM
Over the years I've seen many of Elisabeth's portraits/photos. Is it just me or does anyone else think her features in the portraits vary a great deal? The famous Winterhalter ones for instance don't seem to resemble her photos very much, albeit being very well known. The portraits done after her engagement also had little in commone with her Hungarian coronation ones.

I haven't seen another royal's images change so much, be it Queen Alexandra of GB or Queen Marie of Romania. Theirs are very consistant.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on April 21, 2008, 03:40:39 AM
Does anybody know where was buried the eldest daughter of Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth Archduchess Sophie?
They were buried in Imperial crypt near their son Rudolph. Marie Valerie was buried in Wallsee and Gisela in Munich (I pressume).
But where we can find Sophie? I suppose that somewhere in Imperial crypt as well. But where exactly? A least what I know she wasn't buried togather near
their parents. Or am I mistaken?
If somebody knows answer, it would be brilliant to let me know...

Thanks!

                 Susan
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mari on April 21, 2008, 05:05:11 AM
 Ferdinand's Vault holds Sophie in the below Southeast pier along with  others. Her Parents are buried in Franz Joseph's Vault. For a listing of the layout and the burial places of the various Hapsburg's see below link:

By 1908 the seven vaults of the crypt already held 129 bodies, plus the heart urns of another 3 persons. In that year the Franz Josephs Gruft was built, along with the adjacent Chapel, as part of the celebrations of Emperor Franz Josef's142 60 years on the throne. The vault is usually entered from the north wall in the rear, through the southeast door of the New Vault.

From the foot of the tombs, left to right:
Franz Joseph's Vault, showing the pedestal of the stone tomb of Emperor Franz Josef, flanked by wife Elisabeth and son Rudolf.


    *
      143 Empress Elisabeth of Bavaria ("Sissi") (1837 - 1898) →Family Tree Wife of Emperor Franz Joseph.142

    *
      142 Emperor Franz Josef (1830 - 1916) →Family Tree Son of Archduke Franz Karl.135

    *
      144 Archduke Rudolf (1858 - 1889) →Family Tree Son of Emperor Franz Joseph.142

Turning around from the foot of the tombs, the doorway on the south wall of this vault leads into the Crypt Chapel.


Ferdinand's Vault

The Ferdinandsgruft was built in 1842, along with the Tuscan Vault, in conjunction with the reconstruction of the monastery above. Although the visitor sees an almost-empty room with only two sarcophagi, this vault actually contains one-fourth of the Imperial Crypt's entire population, walled-up into the corner piers.



Within the southeast pier:

    *
      73 Archduchess Maria Antonia (1858 - 1883) →Family Tree Daughter of Grand Duke Ferdinand IV of Tuscany.108 Died at 25.

    *
      74 Archduchess Maria Anna (1835 - 1840) →Family Tree Daughter of Archduke Franz Karl135 and Sophie of Bavaria,137 sister of Emperor Franz Joseph142 Died at 5.

    *
      75 Archduchess Maria Karolina (1821 - 1844) →Family Tree Daughter of Archduke Rainerx783 and Princess Elisabeth of Savoy. Died at 23.

    *
      76 Archduke Ferdinand Salvator (1888 - 1891) →Family Tree Son of Archduke Karl Salvator90 and Maria Immakulata.89 Died at 3.

    *
      77 Archduke Rainer Salvator (1880 - 1889) →Family Tree Son of Archduke Karl Salvator90 and Maria Immakulata.89 Died at 9.

    *
      78 Archduchess Sophie Friederike (1855 - 1857) →Family Tree Daughter of Emperor Franz Joseph142 and Empress Elisabeth (Sisi)143 Died at 2.

    *
      79 Archduchess Karoline Ferdinanda (1793 - 1802) →Family Tree Daughter of Ferdinand III, Grand Duke of Tuscanyx769 and Luisa Maria Amelia Teresa of Naples.84a Died at 9. Her heart is buried in the Herzgruft in the Augustinerkirche.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Crypt_Vaults
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 21, 2008, 02:22:12 PM
When Sophie died in 1857, her little tomb was placed next to the one of her aunt Archduchess Maria Anna (1835-1840), who was the only sister of Franz Joseph. After the so-called "Franz Josephs Gruft" - this part of the crypt where the tombs of Franz Joseph, Elisabeth and their son Rudolf can be found today - had been finished, Sophie's tomb was brought there. It was placed behind the tomb of her father, right there where you can enter the "Neue Gruft" today. Since the 1960s, Sophie's tomb is in a niche of the "Ferdinands Gruft". So you can't see it anymore. But there is a memorial plate on the wall which says "Sophie Friederike 1855-1857".
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 21, 2008, 02:27:34 PM
They were buried in Imperial crypt near their son Rudolph. Marie Valerie was buried in Wallsee and Gisela in Munich (I pressume).

Gisela was laid to rest in the crypt of St. Michael, Munich. Her tomb was placed in a niche of a room which isn't open to the public. But if you are very kind to the old man at the entrance, you might have a look into this room. ;-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on April 22, 2008, 07:17:10 AM
Thank you both a lot for all information! :)

Are here any photos of her memorial plate available?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: REMI on April 24, 2008, 11:09:01 AM
Does anybody know where was buried the eldest daughter of Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth Archduchess Sophie?
They were buried in Imperial crypt near their son Rudolph. Marie Valerie was buried in Wallsee and Gisela in Munich (I pressume).
But where we can find Sophie? I suppose that somewhere in Imperial crypt as well. But where exactly? A least what I know she wasn't buried togather near
their parents. Or am I mistaken?
If somebody knows answer, it would be brilliant to let me know...

Thanks!

                 Susan

The Sophie Friederike's grave (number 78 b) is in Ferdinandgruft, Kapuzinergruft, Vienna
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: mardam on April 24, 2008, 03:44:52 PM
A picture of the memorialplate of Sophie (number 78 B)
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/countries/austria/vienna/kapuzinergruft/kapuzinergruft2.htm (http://www.royaltyguide.nl/countries/austria/vienna/kapuzinergruft/kapuzinergruft2.htm)

A Picture of the plate of Gisela (number 33)
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/countries/germany/munich/michaelskirche.htm (http://www.royaltyguide.nl/countries/germany/munich/michaelskirche.htm)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on June 08, 2008, 09:05:05 AM
The two famous portraits of Elisabeth by Whinterhalter :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/whinterhalter.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissi12.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on June 08, 2008, 10:56:50 AM
My favourites portraist of all royal ladies..the third one is wonderful too.:-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: carl fraley on August 09, 2008, 01:38:39 AM
By the way:
Why do you always spell her name in the kitschy version S I S S I, although it is known that Elisabeth herself wanted her name to be written with only one 's' ?


This entire question(Sisi vs. Sissy) is covered on the Hofburg website under FAQ :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on August 21, 2008, 03:26:58 PM
Franz Xaver Winterhalter

(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4307/kaiserinelisabeth250aw9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)(http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/2115/sisigrjx0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on August 22, 2008, 03:06:15 AM
This one was Franz Joseph's favorite portrait of his wife. He kept it in his study in Hofburg untill his death.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on August 22, 2008, 05:29:32 AM
I am a bit surprised that Franz Joseph liked that pictures so much, for me it's not too typical for Elisabeth, the face....on many pictures she looks differently. I would not have recognized her at once. It seems it really depends on the artist, how the people's portraits were at that time...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2008, 10:41:27 AM
Indeed...One must remember he used to see the "real thing" every morning...It bought back happy memories to poor Franz Josef...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on September 29, 2008, 08:06:37 AM
Parents of Empress Elisabeth towards the end of their life :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/maxludovica-1.jpg)

Older Duchess Ludovika :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/luka.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/lukaolder.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 29, 2008, 02:04:17 PM
Yes Mimi or Mutti to her children.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on September 30, 2008, 10:38:32 AM
Ikone ewiger Schönheit!

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7070/013267349za8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5670/zvornfurhpyo0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5984/436pxkaiserinelisabeth1pe2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2008, 12:27:17 PM
One of the few sessions that the Empress "allowed" herself to be photographed.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 01, 2008, 12:40:39 PM
wasnt it only later in life that Sissi refused to be photographed? thats what i read but im not sure...i mean does that explain why there arent that many pictures of her in later life?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2008, 07:14:21 AM
Parents of Empress Elisabeth towards the end of their life :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/maxludovica-1.jpg)

Older Duchess Ludovika :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/luka.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/lukaolder.jpg)



It's nice and interesting to see especially Sisis mother in that old age, as her daughter did not want to be photographed when becoming older. Evidently Ludovika was not like that, and did not have anything against seeing herself with an older skin...
Does anyone know about her, if she was not that crazy about being "beautiful" and being "always young" like Sisi was? I think becoming older is a natural process and her mother seems to have been more "normal" about that point. What do others think?
All in all very nice new pictures!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2008, 04:18:54 PM
Sisi was a famed beauty and an empress, while her mother has lots more babies and only a duchess in Bavaria. Sisi associated her popularity with her beauty, that is why she wanted to protect the image of the lovely empress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 04, 2008, 04:56:43 PM
But Ludovika was very pretty too. It was rumoured, that she was( in her youth) even more beautiful then her famous daughter.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2008, 03:36:30 PM
Yes, but she was "countrified" through her years in Bavaria. She became her children's Muti a way Sisi never did...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on October 11, 2008, 04:31:23 AM
Sisi with her dogs:

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/moue.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/swd.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/swd2.jpg)


The empress was a great lover of nature and animals, far preferring the company of her dogs and her horses to humans.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 11, 2008, 06:34:13 AM
i hope these are not repeated..



(http://img24.imagevenue.com/loc898/th_24739_Elisabethempresswithwonderfuldresse_122_898lo.jpg) (http://img24.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24739_Elisabethempresswithwonderfuldresse_122_898lo.jpg)(http://img165.imagevenue.com/loc738/th_24744_Sissiandalittledog_122_738lo.jpg) (http://img165.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24744_Sissiandalittledog_122_738lo.jpg)(http://img238.imagevenue.com/loc573/th_24749_Elisabethempressphoto_122_573lo.jpg) (http://img238.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24749_Elisabethempressphoto_122_573lo.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on October 11, 2008, 02:32:46 PM
many photos were retouched.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 13, 2008, 05:13:10 PM
One of my favourite Sissi anecdotes involves her three poodles, whom she sent via train to France (I believe) to have them clipped. :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2008, 05:51:50 PM
She like animals more than people...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on October 14, 2008, 10:21:56 AM
I think that she had an Irish Wolfhound called "Horseguard", although I stand open to correction. Once when Franz-Joseph asked her what gift she would like for her name day (as her birthday fell at Christmas she received her birthday presents on her "name day") she replied that she would like a tiger cub and informed him that the zoo in Berlin had three suitable specimens. However, I don't think he granted her wish on that particular occasion.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 14, 2008, 01:34:25 PM
I agree...It would have eaten the skin and bones Empress without asecond thought...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on October 16, 2008, 10:38:35 AM
Well, interesting and wonderful pictures with the dogs. I did not know about her love to animals and pets. Maybe they could give her more than certain people. It's well known that the Habsburgs loved bigger dogs, but well she's wasn't a Habsburg, but a Wittelsbach, so what about them? Were they usually lovers of dogs or other animals and was this some kind of tradition or was it only Sisi, who loved them? And: Did she only have dogs or other animals, like cats, etc as well?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 16, 2008, 12:00:45 PM
She loved also horses and parrots. But she had love to animals in common. In her possession were a lot of animals. I read somewhere, that in one room she had portraits of her favorite horses on walls. It was propably in Hermes villa.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2008, 02:17:07 PM
Yep, one of the earliest gift from her husband was a parrot.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 17, 2008, 08:54:12 AM
This picture is totally new for me

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2qibwn8.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2008, 02:27:59 PM
I like her "Wilma Flintstone necklace".  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mari on October 17, 2008, 02:54:45 PM
Wonderful portrait....you can certainly see why She was considered a great Beauty!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 17, 2008, 06:06:09 PM
Funeral of Archduchess Sophie

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/funeralofasophie.jpg)

Statue of young Emperor Franz Joseph I.

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/StatueofyougFJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 18, 2008, 06:19:03 PM
Where is the statue located ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 19, 2008, 02:48:59 AM
Unfortunately I don't know. Can anybody help with location?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 19, 2008, 08:18:26 AM
Quote
AUSTRIA - JANUARY 01: Statue of youg Emperor Franz Joseph on the Heldenberg. Lower Austria. Photography. 2000. (Photo by Imagno/Getty Images) [Statue des jungen Kaisers Franz Joseph auf dem 'oesterreichischen Walhall'. Heldenberg. Niederoesterreich. Photographie. 2000.]

Source (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=editorial&assetType=image&p=Franz%20Joseph%20I&src=standard#4)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on October 19, 2008, 11:38:47 AM
(http://i37.tinypic.com/2lbl0ub.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 20, 2008, 08:41:28 PM
The postcard above, is it:

Top: Empress Sisi.
middle: Archduchess Sophie, Crown Princess Stephanie, Duchess Luisa in Bavaria.
bottom: Archduchess Elisabeth.

right? or the middle, left - Empress Caroline Augusta???

 my 1700 post! MWAHH! lol
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 21, 2008, 01:50:56 PM
You are right. Dowager Empress Caroline Augusta is not in the mix of things. She was exiled to Salzburg. She got freer once Sisi got more independent as they got on better than with Archduchess Sofie.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on October 24, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
Elisabeth's statue in Corfu:

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Corfu.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Valancy on October 28, 2008, 04:04:28 AM
I've read this whole thread, but I can't remember anymore all the pictures that have been posted, so I apologise if there have already been photos of some of these memorial statues etc. But I thought I would post the Elisabeth-related pictures I took last year when I was staying in Switzerland for a few months. I apologise that the quality isn't better, my camera isn't very good - and it was raining on the day when I visited Montreux.

The Elisabeth statue in Geneva, near the spot where she was murdered:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/sisi-geneve2.jpg)

A bit closer:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/sisi-geneve3.jpg)

From another angle:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/sisi-geneve4.jpg)

Not pictures of Elisabeth, but might still be interesting... The plaque commemorating the spot where she was murdered. (It normally isn't tilted like that, but a boat had hit it in a storm recently. I found it oddly fitting.)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/geneve-plaque.jpg)

In the Beau-Rivage hotel, a glass case of some of the things she had with her on those last days:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/beaurivage3.jpg)

I also visited Montreux, where Sisi spent a lot of time in her last years and where she had been returning from Geneva when Lucheni assassinated her. There is a statue for her there:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/sisi-montreux2.jpg)

From another angle, because I like it: (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/sisi-montreux4.jpg)

And this was one of my oddest discoveries... Some building, I still don't know exactly what because it was closed and I couldn't find out, had these "Sissi sphinxes" outside its entrance. There were two on both sides of the entrance and one a bit further off on the street, but I'm showing just one because they were all fairly similar:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/valancystar/Empress%20Elisabeth/sisi-montreux6.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on October 28, 2008, 04:06:26 PM
Thanks for those wonderful photos Valancy! I don't think any of them have been posted before. The "Sissi sphinxes" are new to me, I have never heard of them before. I wonder what their history is? It would be fascinating to find out!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 02, 2008, 08:26:55 AM
First time i see this illustration. The assasination of Sissi

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4559/asesinada1aa4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

How sad =(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2008, 10:21:09 AM
Yes...Sad indeed !  :(

I think the whole event was illustrated in the papers...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on November 02, 2008, 11:30:39 AM
I believe so, I recently found a 'In Loving Memory'-card released after the assassination, I balieve it was on Ebay, but ofcourse very expensive. I'll take a look and see if I can find it again.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 07, 2008, 06:49:41 AM
New for me...this is one of the most impressive and beautiful pictures i ever seen of Sissi

(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6052/elisabethempressmelanchaq1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on November 07, 2008, 12:53:12 PM
I hope, that those three pictures are not on the forum too. I like especially first one:

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Miramare.jpg)
 
In Triste. Elisabeth and Charlotta, in boat Franz Joseph and Maximilian.

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/JAxmann.jpg)

Picture of bust of young Imperial couple by J.Axmann

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/bardejov-a.gif)

Empress Elisabeth's statue in Bardejov. Unfortunately not very clear version. If anyone has better one, would love to see it.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2008, 02:08:18 PM
Interesting ! Where is Bardejov ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on November 08, 2008, 03:22:15 AM
In Slovakia. The Statue was built as a memory for Elizabeth's visit in 1895.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2008, 11:00:34 AM
Thanks ! But I think she loved Hungary more.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 08, 2008, 11:59:55 AM
Well, Slovakia was a part of Hungary back then... Only in 1918 it became a part of Czechoslovakia.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2008, 12:09:17 PM
I see...Did she go there often ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on November 09, 2008, 03:29:02 AM
I am not sure. Propably Franz Joseph went there more often then his wife. Because of hunts and autumn's manevrous, which used to take place there occasonally.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2008, 10:56:44 AM
Yes...Sisi loves to hunt too...That's why she later did much of it in England and Ireland.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on November 17, 2008, 02:04:13 PM
(http://i33.tinypic.com/igk9l2.jpg)

(http://i37.tinypic.com/16bivs5.jpg)

(http://i33.tinypic.com/2l972ow.jpg)

(http://i35.tinypic.com/2v2fuq1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on November 18, 2008, 11:44:13 AM
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3314/013267220ul7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

holding  a portrait of FJ (?) in her hand...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yseult on November 18, 2008, 12:51:30 PM
Yes, the miniature she´s holding shows Franz Joseph. If I´m not wrong, this portrait was made before the wedding of Elisabeth with Franz Joseph.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronica on November 19, 2008, 11:05:57 AM
I just wonder, is there any photograph of Sisi with her sisters Marie, queen of the two sicilies or Mathilde Trani ?

They spent a lot of time together...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2008, 01:05:52 PM
I have seen one photo of Sisi, Marie, Mathilde and Sophie togather.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronica on November 20, 2008, 05:04:18 PM
Oh, I would pay to see it!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2008, 10:21:10 AM
I think the photo was first published in Sisi's photo album (the earlier one).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on November 30, 2008, 08:33:02 AM


(http://i34.tinypic.com/303lmpu.jpg)

(http://i34.tinypic.com/sbjwrc.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2008, 02:19:52 PM
I think the last one was taken before the trip to Venice...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronica on November 30, 2008, 05:01:05 PM
Actually it was taken in Venice in 1862.

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on December 02, 2008, 03:30:48 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/12281333546973581.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Laura_ on December 04, 2008, 08:15:37 AM

(http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/8494/elisabeth1dc3.th.png) (http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elisabeth1dc3.png) (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/706/elisabeth2kb3.th.png) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elisabeth2kb3.png)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 06, 2008, 08:45:50 AM
(http://i37.tinypic.com/312wx9g.jpg)


(http://i33.tinypic.com/21n4ohz.jpg)


I love this picture. I don´t know from which artist it is. It looks like Klimt.

(http://i35.tinypic.com/317cidf.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Greenowl on December 06, 2008, 09:57:22 AM
Hi Rani,

those pictures are amazing, especially the third one. It does seem a bit like a work of Gustav Klimt (or at any rate it is influenced by the Jugendstil) and depicts Elisabeth adoring (or contemplating) a statue of her "hero", Heinrich Heine. Where did you find it?

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 06, 2008, 11:00:32 AM
I dont know anymore. I´m sorry.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 09, 2008, 10:15:27 AM
The first one looks like Sisi was visiting an ophanage and meeting a model student...?  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on December 09, 2008, 11:50:12 AM
Yes i think you are right
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Valancy on December 09, 2008, 05:41:01 PM
Ooh, I'd never seen that last picture before, thanks for posting! It does look Klimt-ish in style, I wonder if it is him or someone else...

I recently visited Gödöllö (Elisabeth's favourite palace in Hungary, near Budapest, now turned into museum) and noticed that there are lots of paintings and other pictures there which I hadn't seen anywhere else or in any books so far. Maybe because they're just in Hungary, they're not so well known. Unfortunately I don't have pictures of them, as you couldn't take photos in the museum and in the little time I had in the museum shop before it closed, I didn't find them there in any form. Maybe next time I go there I'll see if I can find reprints of any of them...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on December 10, 2008, 02:05:36 AM
Thanks. it is nice to see Sisi doing some public duty for a change, she do dislike them.

Yes definetly ...

Ooh, I'd never seen that last picture before, thanks for posting! It does look Klimt-ish in style, I wonder if it is him or someone else...

I recently visited Gödöllö (Elisabeth's favourite palace in Hungary, near Budapest, now turned into museum) and noticed that there are lots of paintings and other pictures there which I hadn't seen anywhere else or in any books so far. Maybe because they're just in Hungary, they're not so well known. Unfortunately I don't have pictures of them, as you couldn't take photos in the museum and in the little time I had in the museum shop before it closed, I didn't find them there in any form. Maybe next time I go there I'll see if I can find reprints of any of them...

I think i know about which pictures you are talking about....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 12, 2008, 12:34:48 PM
Maximilian in Bavaria as a young man

(http://i36.tinypic.com/mwupaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on December 13, 2008, 07:51:37 AM
Sisi still young, still smiling slightly on the first picture (a characteristic common to Wittelsbach ?) :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/ssad.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/titania.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/sissi-1.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/pho.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/el.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on December 17, 2008, 05:49:00 PM
Courtesy Rani, Reply 532:
(http://i33.tinypic.com/igk9l2.jpg)

Hello, this looks like a portrait of Europe's consorts.  I can see Tsarina Maria Alexandrovna in the back, Imperatrice Eugenie on the right and Empress Elizabeth in the center but who is the woman on the left? 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: britt.25 on December 20, 2008, 10:41:10 AM
Maximilian in Bavaria as a young man

(http://i36.tinypic.com/mwupaa.jpg)

Nice pictures, I am amazed about the new pics on Sisi! They're just great.
Concerning this one, does it also exist in bigger?
Rani, if you have more, you can also better post them on the thread of the Wittelsbachs! I would be pleased to see more of these there....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 20, 2008, 11:57:59 AM
Maximilian in Bavaria as a young man

(http://i36.tinypic.com/mwupaa.jpg)

Nice pictures, I am amazed about the new pics on Sisi! They're just great.
Concerning this one, does it also exist in bigger?
Rani, if you have more, you can also better post them on the thread of the Wittelsbachs! I would be pleased to see more of these there....


Yes, but there is a watermark from the ÖNB.
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/max.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on December 20, 2008, 06:47:35 PM
Courtesy Rani, Reply 532:
(http://i33.tinypic.com/igk9l2.jpg)

I believe the lady on the far left is Teresa of Naples and Sicily, Empress of Brazil, wife of D. Pedro II.  She would be the only other "western" Empress at the time with the Queen Augusta of Prussia not becoming German Empress until 1871 and by that time Eugenie was no longer an Empress.  Queen Victoria was not declared Empress of India until 1876 and I doubt either the Empress Cixi of China or the Empress of Japan would be included in such a picture.  Anyway, the lady on the left looks like Empress Teresa.   

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 20, 2008, 08:49:55 PM
the lady on top is the Empress Maria Alexandrovna of Russia..
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Terence on December 21, 2008, 12:46:12 AM
Courtesy Rani, Reply 532:
(http://i33.tinypic.com/igk9l2.jpg)

I believe the lady on the far left is Teresa of Naples and Sicily, Empress of Brazil, wife of D. Pedro II.  She would be the only other "western" Empress at the time with the Queen Augusta of Prussia not becoming German Empress until 1871 and by that time Eugenie was no longer an Empress.  Queen Victoria was not declared Empress of India until 1876 and I doubt either the Empress Cixi of China or the Empress of Japan would be included in such a picture.  Anyway, the lady on the left looks like Empress Teresa.   

-Duke of NJ

Good job Duke, great detective work.  Sorry Mandie, that one was covered already back in the thread. :)

The one mystery woman left was bugging me, your conclusion Duke seems to make sense.  Well done.

T
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 21, 2008, 08:02:46 AM
@IrinaAlexandrovna :1864
"Signed, dated and inscribed lower left: Fr Winterhalter / Schönbrunn 1864"




I love the Leopold Horowitz portrait of Elisabeth
 (http://i42.tinypic.com/rwlzjq.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 21, 2008, 09:05:25 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/36126565.jpg)


I would love to have all the photos and pictures! It´s hard to find Helene photos but it is almost impossible to find Mathilde photos.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2008, 10:52:43 AM
I think Helene photos are harder to find. There are quite a bit of postcards available on Mathilde & Sophie Charlotte.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on December 21, 2008, 11:36:12 AM
Well i have one with her sister Elisabeth... and the other are again with her sister...
Here is a portrait of Sissi on her coronation sorry if  this has been posted already
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ferenc_J%C3%B3zsef_koron%C3%A1z%C3%A1sa_Bud%C3%A1n.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Rani on December 24, 2008, 11:49:25 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/sisi38.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/sissi94.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/foto77a.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/sissi78.jpg)

Today it is Elisabeth 171th birthday
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on December 25, 2008, 02:21:11 PM

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/socha.jpg)

 Is this statue from Achilleon?

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/coronation67.jpg)

 Coronation 1867.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on December 26, 2008, 10:06:41 AM

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/coronation67.jpg)

 Coronation 1867.

I think that one has been posted .... But thank you it's beautiful picture
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 26, 2008, 10:09:36 AM
Yes...but love to see it again. Wonder where it is located. Budapest ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronika on December 26, 2008, 11:24:11 AM
This picture is located in Gödöllö.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on December 28, 2008, 07:23:26 AM
(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Sinaia.jpg)

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Sinaia1.jpg)

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Sinaia2.jpg)

Those photos were taken in Sinaia in 1896. I can recognize Emperor Franz Joseph and  Romanian Royal couple Carol I. and Carmen Silva. But I am not sure with lady in black. Is it Empress Elisabeth?
On first picture she is on top of hill. On second one she sat with Carmen Silva. Last one is detail of second photo.
Does anybody know, whether Sisi was with her husband on romanian state visit in Sinaia in that time? I haven't read it anywhere...but the lady really looks like the Empress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on December 28, 2008, 08:28:45 AM

I'm sure she isn't Elisabeth, more likely the Princess Marie of Edinburgh, the future Queen.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on December 28, 2008, 10:26:51 AM

I'm sure she isn't Elisabeth, more likely the Princess Marie of Edinburgh, the future Queen.

Yes i agree... it doesn't look to me like Elisabeth...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: synnadene on December 28, 2008, 10:36:37 AM

Yes, and it isn't only about, that the lady on the picture is similar or not: I can't believe that Elisabeth would allow to photograph herself in 1896 with that many people, it is wellknown, that she hated and avoided occassions like this...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on December 28, 2008, 10:48:22 AM
Beautiful photo of Sisi :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/wonderful.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Princess Susan on December 29, 2008, 12:47:18 PM
Thank you all for confirmation! ;)
I pressumed such an answer, but didnt know it for sure. Thin waist of that woman confused me a bit.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 22, 2010, 08:43:53 AM
Since there are no topic for this little angel...


Sophie

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2ext537.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 23, 2010, 07:55:34 AM
I also think that Gisela and Marie Valérie had a good relationship. When Valérie was still unmarried, Gisela and her family often went to Vienna or Bad Ischl where they stayed for more than two months. Above all, Gisela loved to stay at the Hermesvilla (which was built for Empress Elisabeth, but unfortunately she didn't like it) where some rooms where named after her.

I don't think that Marie Valérie visited Bavaria very often, but nevertheless the sisters were in contact. They met at different family celebrations, health resorts and again and again in the area around Vienna as both of the girls loved their father Franz Joseph so much.

It seems like Franz Joseph, Elisabeth and their daughters shared their letters all the time. In FJ's letters you can usually read "I sent you Gisela's letter ..." or "I don't know if you have heard from Valérie so far, so here is her letter ...", etc. So everyone got the latest news from the other family members. That's really nice.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 23, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
I don't know if Elizabeth (Sisi) was that much interested in her family, especially Gisela. She felt like a gypsy, although I am sure FJ kept her up to date on the happenings of the family. Her later years showed a tendency to became less interested in worldly things (even Marie Valerie).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 23, 2010, 12:27:28 PM
Perhaps she lost interest in Marie Valerie on her last years because on those days she was married and didn't spend too much time with her, about Gisela, she never had much interest on her
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 23, 2010, 12:56:06 PM
Yes. Marie Valerie became a housewife with concerns of her own, one must remember Sisi's closest ladies-in-waitings were all unmarried. That is why after Rudolf's death she drifts more and more away from her family (she never really was close to Erzi either...).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 23, 2010, 02:51:43 PM
Well, the dead of the young Crown Prince made her to lost all interest in life. Not including Marie Valerie she didn't have a close relationship with any other member of her family, so after MV's wedding I think that she felt alone in Austria and she preffered to spend her time traveling with her ladies
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 23, 2010, 04:02:33 PM
Yes. So I doubt that she closely followed the lives of MV & Gisela with much interest. Her letters to MV were full of self pity and lamentations.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 24, 2010, 03:05:55 PM
And less interest to Gisela, she only was more interested in Marie Valerie (till she left Sissi), about Rudolph I only think that she felt guilty of neglecting him (mainly at his childhood) after his sad death but I think no more.
I think that she was much closer to her sisters than to her daughters and son.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 24, 2010, 04:14:03 PM
I agree. She remained close to her friends too (Queen Elizabeth of Romania & Empress Friedrich of Germany) and her sister Mathilde & brother Karl Theodor. In some ways, Sisi's mental maturity was never fully developed and resembled those of a child.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 25, 2010, 03:01:26 PM
Would be logical to think that she was closer to her friends and siblings because they had a closer relationship with her, than her  with her children (who were like unknown for her) but it isn't a reason to explain that even she wasmore distant with Marie Valerie her last years, I must recognize that she was a bit strange
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 25, 2010, 04:52:26 PM
She felt MV had changed after she became a mother and wife. She was Tatiana, Queen of the fairie land. It just did not fit into her illusions. 
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Veronica on June 25, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Titania, not Tatiana
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 25, 2010, 06:34:14 PM
That was Titania, not Tatiania. Check Shakespeare
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 25, 2010, 06:52:48 PM
Sorry, I should have clarified. Titania was queen of the faeries in Shakespear's  Midsummers Night Dream.  Not Tatiana.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Silja on July 02, 2010, 09:30:27 AM
She felt MV had changed after she became a mother and wife. She was Tatiana, Queen of the fairie land. It just did not fit into her illusions. 

Always selfish, she probably simply couldn't accept the fact that her daughter now had a life of her own and wouldn't put her mother first any more. According to M. Valerie her mother once told her she would never be happy again to see her if she [M.V.] was going to get married. She was like some animals which abandon their young once they have been touched by somebody.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 02, 2010, 02:29:03 PM
Wow! I haven't heard nothing like that! She acted like a little girl who was jealous of a new brother... she should understand that her daughter was going to have her own life and even after that she continued being her daughter  :o
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 02, 2010, 02:45:38 PM
I think that Elisabeth never had the change to fully grown up as a person. She always was like a teenager, despite the age, that why she behaved like that.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 04, 2010, 02:19:59 PM
Yes. However instead of guiding her towards maturity, both her husband and mother-in-law used that against her. I could sympathize her position as she was a very sensitive person.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 05, 2010, 01:44:49 PM
But a teenager on the body of an adult woman... :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 03:39:37 PM
She needed guidence not instructions. Both her husband and mother-in-law mistaken her shyness for weakness, and they later regret it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 05, 2010, 03:50:02 PM
And her character didn't help her very much too...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 04:10:32 PM
To be fair, Sisi was a willing pupil at first. She tried to please both her husband and mother-in-law. But once they began bullying her and act without consideration to her delicate feelings, Sisi began to retreat back into her shell.  :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on July 05, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
Once again, Eric and Kaiserin...please stop all the discussion about Elisabeth's character:

firstly, you discuss this at every topic about the Empress

secondly, DO look at the title of the topic.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on July 06, 2010, 12:35:10 AM
Well..we are speaking about Empress Elizabeth and Emperor Franz Josef children...and the children are raised by their parents. So they topic had a little to do with Sisi and Franz Josef.

I tends to agree with Kaiserin about Elizabteh charater...

RealAnastasia.

There are enough discussions about Elisabeth character at the Habsburg Forum. Some posters are ready to discuss the same things endlessly and day by day and it's getting annoying.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Lady_Aurora on July 06, 2010, 07:47:34 PM
I recently read Notorious Royal Marriages by Leslie Carroll, and though  I know that books like that are not the most accurate it is a good book to get quick overviews of different royalty and the chapter about Sisi was very interesting.
In it Carroll seemed to think that Sisi was not particularly close to any of the children, except for Marie Valarie whom she seemed to never want to leave her side, Carroll questions her paternity as being other than Franz Joseph but I've heard otherwise before.
Also, Carroll blames Sisi's psychological problems and her mother-in-law's distrust/dislike of her for the reason she was not close to her older children.  An interesting bit about Carroll's reasoning for Sisi treating Gisela poorly is that she blamed her for little Sophie's death, something about Gisela being sick first, though she also states that Sisi took the children on the trip against her mother-in-law's wishes, so it might have been self blame.  Otherwise she only speaks of Rudolph's psychological problems and how they mirrored some of Sisi's, though Carroll also blames a tutor of Rudolph's for firing guns in the air to get him to focus on studying, thus leading him to an obsession with death and guns.

I would love to read actual books by scholars devoted to this family, so if anyone has any good recommendations, especially concerning the children, I would love to hear them!
I know this isn't the best source for the information but I thought I'd share one author's account on the family dynamics.  Also the books is pretty good and very quick read and has wet my appetite for reading more things about royal families I know so little about. :)

(I apologize for any name spelling errors, also any information I botched up as I do not have the book in front of me, loaned it to a friend, and the internet provides crazy variations of spellings)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Pezzazz on July 07, 2010, 10:15:55 AM
Thanks for the reference Lady_Aurora.  The more references for a good read on the Habsburgs the better.

One of the books I'm reading now is by Carl Lonyay, the nephew and heir of Crown Princess Stephanie's 2nd husband.  Mostly the book is about Rudolph, though he also has plenty to say about the state of his marriage.   He said Rudolph always spoke well and hoped for the best in his wife.  In a letter to Latour he was worried how anything he might do could reflect poorly on his wife which he didn't want since  Stephanie was: "intelligent, very observant and sensitive, full of ambition, the granddaughter of Louis Philippe and a Coburg!  I need say no more!  I am very much in love with her, and she is the only person who would have the power of leading me really astray!......................With kindest regards from Stephanie and myself............Rudolph"

Haha, from other things I've read about Stephanie, I wonder if she "edited" that letter for the sake of posterity.  However, this nephew by marriage of Stephanie does say that Rudolph was always kind and warm towards her, but then he saw this as a weakness in Rudolph since Lonyay had nothing kind to say about his Aunt Stephanie in any way.  For example he stated that Stephanie always felt best in her own apartments, "because this cold-natured, heartless person could fully satisfy her pompous arrogance.  Until her dying day, whenever lackeys in knee-breeches entered the room, they had to bow deeply and mumble the same set phrase: 'I prostrate myself at the feet of Your Royal Highness.'  It was this humiliation to which her fellow-beings were forced to submit, that she relished above all."

He went on to describe their marriage "like an attempt to play a madrigal as a duet for the contra-bassoon and violin".   :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
You should read Brigitte Heyman's "Reluctant Empress" for more accurate information. It was Sisi who saved Rudolf from the boorish tutor appointed by Archduchess Sofie who frightened the boy into constant nighmares. Sisi for once took charge and wrote a threatening letter to her husband and demanded that the education of her son to be in her own hands from now on, otherwise she will leave Vienna "either he goes or I will". Rudolf never forgot in this critical period in his life she took his side against his father & grandmother.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Lady_Aurora on July 08, 2010, 07:37:30 PM
Thanks for the book references! I will definitely try to find them.

Now that I think about it Carroll did mention Sisi taking charge after finding out about that tutor. I wish I had the book in front of me but the friend that borrowed it took it abroad with her.  That shows though that Sisi did care for her children, at least enough to know that a tutor waving around firearms is not the best situation for a child to be around.

 :D

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on July 08, 2010, 10:49:41 PM
You should read Brigitte Heyman's "Reluctant Empress" for more accurate information.

Hamann, not Heyman.  You can direct the posters to the wrong way with such mistakes.