Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Rulers Prior to Nicholas II => Topic started by: RomanovFan on December 18, 2004, 12:49:30 PM

Title: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: RomanovFan on December 18, 2004, 12:49:30 PM
Wasn't she of Holstien blood through her mother making her and Peter III cousins? And are the Hohenzollern and Holstein families the same one?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2005, 06:36:03 PM
No,the Holstein family comes from the House of Oldenburg,and the Hohenzollern family comes from the Counts of Zollern.Correct me if I am wrong.Princess Sophia Frederica Augusta's(Catharine II) mother is Princess Johanna von Anhalt-Zerbst,born Princess von Holstein-Gottorp.I would also like to know much about her mother as you.Does anyone know how did Fuerstin Johanna looked like?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 19, 2005, 01:57:24 AM
I saw some portaits of Johanna - not a very lovely woman. In addition she gave nothing but trouble of her daughter Catherine II and  Empress Elizaveta Petrovna. Johanna was driven out of Russia by Elizaveta - Empress had considered her a spy of Friedrich II of Prussia.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 19, 2005, 08:36:11 PM
Really?What was Cath II relation with her mother until the rest of her life?And also brother?Did they have contact?I would still like to see how Johanna looked like beacause I was reading about her self-proud dignity and about how she reacted when she married minor German Prince comparing to her cousins who were all well suited at the time.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 20, 2005, 02:51:03 AM
Quote
Really?What was Cath II relation with her mother until the rest of her life?And also brother?Did they have contact?I would still like to see how Johanna looked like beacause I was reading about her self-proud dignity and about how she reacted when she married minor German Prince comparing to her cousins who were all well suited at the time.


Arriving to Russia in the beginning of 1740s Catherine was very ashamed of her mother as Johanna was a light-minded and frivolous woman.Johanna considered that she herself would a great star in the Russian society and tried to overshadow her own daughter.
Johanna died in 1759 in a poverty as she had lived an extravagant life.Catherine had to pay all her mother's financial debts.Moreover Catherine did not like her german relationss,did not let her brother to go to Russia as she knew too good that her penniless relatives were very greedy for money and high positions (posts).
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 20, 2005, 05:25:43 AM
Did she ceep in touch with any of her relations?I mean also did she admire any of her cousins?The word is too hard-I meant respect any of her cousins and did anyone ever came to Russia at her invitation?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 20, 2005, 05:26:50 AM
If you find Johannas portrait please post it for me.Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: RomanovFan on January 21, 2005, 02:03:08 AM
Princess Johanna was Peter III's aunt and preferred him over Sophie (Catherine II). I think Sophie had at least one younger brother as well and Johanna payed more attention to him and Peter than she did her own daughter. Personally, I think she wanted Sophie to marry her Russian cousin just to get rid of her.  Like Grand Duchess Anastasia, her mother in particular was disappointed that she was not a boy, but unlike the grand duchess, Princess Sophie was unloved by her mother. Her father I'm not so sure about.... he seemed to be away on trips an awful lot, but I could be wrong on that assumption.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 21, 2005, 02:57:20 AM
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Princess Johanna was Peter III's aunt and preferred him over Sophie (Catherine II). I think Sophie had at least one younger brother as well and Johanna payed more attention to him and Peter than she did her own daughter. Personally, I think she wanted Sophie to marry her Russian cousin just to get rid of her.  Like Grand Duchess Anastasia, her mother in particular was disappointed that she was not a boy, but unlike the grand duchess, Princess Sophie was unloved by her mother. Her father I'm not so sure about.... he seemed to be away on trips an awful lot, but I could be wrong on that assumption.


Johanna paid attention only to herself,her own needs and feelings! She didn't care about her children,she loved money ,honours and high life. Greedy and ambitious Johanna  had hoped to make good at Russian Empress expense.
As for Catherine's father he was an ordinary campaigner,deeply religious and quite a dull person.

Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 21, 2005, 07:12:26 AM
Well,there must be some relations she stayed in good terms with?Or not?Again,Svetabel,don't get angy but if you have or find Johannas picture please post it!
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 21, 2005, 07:45:44 AM
Marc,I am sure to post Johanna's portrait when I'll find it. :) I guess it will be soon.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2005, 05:34:09 AM
Johanna of Anhalt-Zerbst,mother of Catherine II

Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2005, 07:26:11 AM
Aaaa,Svetabel,you finally found it...Great!Thanks!Do you know is there any colour portrait()does it exist) of Johanna or her husband Christian(parents of Catharine the Great)
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2005, 08:22:28 AM
Quote
Aaaa,Svetabel,you finally found it...Great!Thanks!Do you know is there any colour portrait()does it exist) of Johanna or her husband Christian(parents of Catharine the Great)


I saw colour-portraits in some book on Catherine II but I can't remember which book..
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 24, 2005, 10:57:33 AM
Svetabel,if you remember,plese scan it and post it to me.Please,please,please...  :)
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Svetabel on January 28, 2005, 08:54:15 AM
Not in colour,sorry

Johanna of Anhalt

Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 28, 2005, 02:53:27 PM
Although I like much more colour pictures the effort you made to post this is brilliant...Thanks for not forgeting my wishes!!!If you find anything interesting again,please post it!!!
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2005, 11:27:13 AM
I know there is another thread in Hohenzollern part,but I think this is the right place for such question!I was trying to find some colour portraits of her parents(Prince Christian and Princess Johanna von Anhalt-Zerbst),brother...anyone has them?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Lisa on January 29, 2005, 12:58:32 PM
1746 by Antoine PESNE, Catherine's mother:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/1746versPESNEantoine.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2005, 05:33:29 PM
This is great!Thanks Lisa...Svetabel and me were searching for it!Any of her father,brother or even sister in law?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Lisa on January 30, 2005, 04:32:48 AM
No, I have not!  Sorry,  Marc! :-/
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2005, 10:38:53 AM
Great,because evey try is a good one-Thanks!If anyone has colour pictures of her family(father,mother,brother,sister in law),please post it.I am very courious because they are so rare and it's almoust impossible to find them...
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: RomanovFan on February 06, 2005, 03:41:49 PM
Catherine II's father was out of the picture most of the time wasn't he? You don't hear much about him except when Sophie and Johanna left for Russia to meet Empress Elizabeth. They stopped somewhere to say goodbye to him. He didn't seem to care what happened to Sophie either...or did he?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: kmerov on February 06, 2005, 04:30:22 PM
I think that Catherines father cared very much for his daughter. He died in 1747, but she speaks very kindly about him in her memories..
I also think he wrote some instructions for her, on how to behave in Russia.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: kmerov on February 06, 2005, 04:36:04 PM
"Moreover Catherine did not like her german relationss,did not let her brother to go to Russia as she knew too good that her penniless relatives were very greedy for money and high positions (posts)."

Thats very true, but she did give her mothers family the duchy of Oldenburg as i wrote in the Holstein-Gottorp thread.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on March 04, 2005, 12:52:33 AM
Thanks very much Grand Duke!Great pictures!If you find any other colour ones please post it!Thanks again!
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on March 04, 2005, 06:49:02 PM
Yes,I know,that's why I am searching for them!If you have any pictures of much more less known royals please-post it!It's much more interesting to search for something that is so rare...
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: hikaru on March 05, 2005, 01:23:23 PM
The lover of the Mother of Catherine in Russia was Count Betskoy.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: RomanovFan on April 19, 2005, 10:36:04 AM
And how was Peter III related to her? I know they were like 2nd cousins or something but through who?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: kmerov on April 19, 2005, 11:34:23 AM
I dont know about half siblings, but she did have 4 or so siblings.
Peters father, Karl Friedrich of Holstein-Gottorp was a first cousin to Catherines mother, Johanna of Holstein-Gottorp. Their fathers were brothers.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: RomanovFan on April 20, 2005, 07:38:13 PM
I get now. Thanks. :) So Paul was his own third cousin? lol...seriously, was he?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 20, 2005, 11:42:16 PM
Duke Charles Albrecht of Holstein-Gottorp - Duke Christian Augustus of Holstein Gottorp - Johanna of Holstein Gottorp - Catherine II of Russia

Duke Charles Albrecht of Holstein Gottorp - Duke Frederick of Holstein Gottorp - Duke Charles Frederick of Holstein Gottorp -  Peter III of Russia

So Catherine and Peter shared a set of great grandparents in the Holstein Gottorp line.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: bluetoria on April 23, 2005, 06:44:15 AM
Hi, Elisa,  :) I have vague recollections of reading somewhere that at one time Friedrich was considered as King of/Grand Duke of Prussian Poland. I don't think he was actually given the title though.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Grand Duke on April 23, 2005, 09:05:15 AM
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Does anyone have more information on Catherine's siblings Auguste, Wilhelm, Elisabeth and Friedrich?

With 4 siblings, 3 of them died during infancy:

Wilhelm Christian, prince of Anhalt-Zerbst, 1730-1742
Friedrich August, prince of Anhalt-Zerbst, 1734-1793*
Auguste Christina, princess of Anhalt-Zerbst, 1736-1736
Elisabeth Ulrika, princess of Anhalt-Zerbst, 1742-1745


* Friedrich August
1st wedding - 1753 - Caroline of Hesse-Cassel --> no childs.
2nd wedding - 1764 - Friedricha of Anhalt-Bernburg --> no childs.

Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Macedonsky on April 25, 2005, 07:54:35 AM
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Friedrich August, prince of Anhalt-Zerbst, 1734-1793

Wasn't he last Fuerst of Anhalt-Zerbst, not merely Prinz?
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Alexandra on April 25, 2005, 08:41:05 PM
The question of half-siblings for the new Grand Duchess Catherine (in 1744) may also spring from the story that her mother had had a liaison and became pregnant, while at the Court of the Empress Elizabeth. If so, Johanna was packed off in Sept. 1744, and lived for the rest of her days (to 1760) in Paris. I have never found anything about whether or not her accouchement was successful, so I rather think the pregnancy was either a false alarm, or terminated in a spontaneous abortion.

Karl Peter Ulrich, Duke of Holstein, was the son of Anne petrovna (PG's elder daughter) and so PG's grandson.
Catherine's mother's cadet line of the house were 'cousins-germains' to the members of the Holstein-Gottorp line proper.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Mischa on July 27, 2005, 05:18:45 AM
Wilhelm Christian, prince of Anhalt-Zerbst, 1730-1742

was lame due to a luxation of the hip. Sophie disliked her brother because he was prefered by their mother for being an boy and the heir.

M.
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: cimbrio on July 28, 2005, 12:18:38 AM
Apart from being second cousin to her husband, Catherine was also the cousin of Gustav III of Sweden (assassinated in 1792), who also had a nasty physical mark on his face, and Charles XIII of Sweden, his brother. It's surprising that no matter how insignificant her family may have been, how high she got, as well as her cousins...I suppose she owded it in part toher plotting mother...
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2005, 05:04:30 PM
Don't know how many of you are interested but I finally found the portrait in colour of the father of Catherine the Great...
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2005, 05:04:53 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/Ch-Zerbst.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Catherine II - her German family and roots
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2005, 05:06:07 PM
Portrait of Prince Christian August von Anhalt-Zerbst,father of Catherine the Great!