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Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: Imperial.Opal on October 11, 2010, 01:31:42 PM

Title: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Imperial.Opal on October 11, 2010, 01:31:42 PM
I used the search engine , nothing came up on the change of name of the Saxe Coburgs to their new name Windsor in 1917, must be a user problem
I like to get more information on the name changes on the Royal Family and their relatives
Thanks
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 11, 2010, 01:58:12 PM
Lol, I knew that Wettin (which was considered, but discarded) sounds funny in English, as in "wettin' one's pants"), but I had never realized that with the correct, German pronunciation with stress on the second syllable (because it is a Slavic place name) it sounds just as bad (at least today, perhaps not in 1917! Like "wet teen". (Oh and imagine "de Wettin"! Like "dah Wet Teen"..... They could just as well have kept good old Sexy-Cowboy-Gotcha then!)

Wonder if they considered Dicks, as a short and easy patronymic in honour of the first known Wettiner, Count Thiedericus of Liesgau!? :-)
Or what about the Plantagenetesque name Plantarue or Plantarute, considering the Saxon arms feature a crown of rue!?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: CHRISinUSA on October 11, 2010, 04:07:35 PM
The name of the reigning British royal house has changed numerous times over the centuries.  At the death of Queen Victoria, her son and successor King Edward VII became the first monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (being the son of Victoria's husband, Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).

High anti-German sentiment amongst the people of the British Empire during World War I reached a peak in March 1917, when the Gotha G.IV, a German heavy aircraft capable of crossing the English Channel began bombing London directly.  This obviously caused concern since the aircraft bore the same name as the part of the name of the Royal Family. Additionally, the bombings were coupled with the abdication of King George's first cousin, Nicholas II, the Tsar of Russia on 15 March 1917, which raised the possibility of abolition of other monarchies in Europe.

The King was finally convinced to abandon all titles held under the German Crown, and to change German titles and house names to anglicized versions. On 17 July 1917, a Royal Proclamation issued by George V which changed the name of the House and Family to Windsor and specified that all descendants in the male line of Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, other than female descendants who may marry or may have married, shall bear the said Name of Windsor...

The King also decided that he and his various relatives who were British subjects relinquish use of all German titles and styles, and adopt British-sounding surnames. George compensated several of his male relatives by creating them British peers. Thus, overnight his cousin, Prince Louis of Battenberg, who earlier in the war had been forced to resign as First Sea Lord through anti-German feeling, became Louis Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, while his brother-in-law, the Duke of Teck, became Adolphus Cambridge, 1st Marquess of Cambridge. Others, such as Princess Marie Louise and Princess Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein, simply dropped their territorial designations.

In Letters Patent  gazetted on 11 December 1917, the King restricted the style "His (or Her) Royal Highness" and the titular dignity of "Prince (or Princess) of Great Britain and Ireland" to the children of the Sovereign, the children of the sons of the Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest living son of a Prince of Wales.  The Letters Patent also stated that "the titles of Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness, and the titular dignity of Prince and Princess shall cease except those titles already granted and remaining unrevoked".

Relatives of the British Royal Family who fought on the German side, such as Prince Ernst August of Hanover, 3rd Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale (the senior male-line great grandson of George III) and Prince Carl Eduard, Duke of Albany and reigning Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a male-line grandson of Queen Victoria), were cut off; their British peerages were suspended by a 1919 Order-in-Council under the provisions of the Titles Deprivation Act 1917. George also removed the Garter flags of his German relations from St. George's Chapel, Windsor Castle, under pressure from his mother, Queen Alexandra.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 11, 2010, 04:26:44 PM
The name of the reigning British royal house has changed numerous times over the centuries.  At the death of Queen Victoria, her son and successor King Edward VII became the first monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (being the son of Victoria's husband, Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).
Come to think of it, why didn't the family just become Saxe-Great Britain and Ireland? It can't have been because they were a junior line subject to the main line S-C-G, because the main line itself, for the first 150 years known as Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, was itself a junior line of Saxe-Gotha with whom it only shared the Saxon designation.

Others, such as Princess Marie Louise and Princess Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein, simply dropped their territorial designations.
They should have started calling themselves Princesses of South Jutland! :-)

Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 12, 2010, 06:20:46 PM
Cool idea: Take a look at what's behind Mountbatten-Windsor: (In Prince Philip's case) it's S-H-S-Glücksburg - and Saxe-C-G. Glücskburg is situated in Angeln.
Voilà: The Royal House of Anglo-Saxons! What could be more Ænglisc English?

Well, at least that's better than the Royal House of Old Sex, which is what you get if you start to deconstruct Essex, Sussex, Wessex, Middlesex and Eald Seaxe ((Lower) Saxony proper)!

Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 17, 2010, 07:12:12 PM
Saxe-Coburg, it really is rather odd! Why write the first part in French (Saxe means Saxony in French), but not the second part, when the French version, Cobourg, perhaps would have made people pronounce the vowel correctly à l'allemande (/burg/ instead of /børg/!? If you're going to pronounce it à l'anglaise anyway, why not just write it Saxony-Coburgh?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Imperial.Opal on October 18, 2010, 01:51:15 PM
To everyone on this thread,thank you very much for the information regarding the change of name, I really appreciate the feedback, also did they have to change their royal coat of arms
and other royal insignia that a German connection.

Kind Regards.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 18, 2010, 06:08:08 PM
also did they have to change their royal coat of arms and other royal insignia that a German connection.

As arms of dominion, the sovereign's arms had never showed the Saxon inescutcheon, so they have remained the same from 1837 to today.  (The House of Windsor has no arms - there is a badge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor) derived from the standard of the Yeoman of the Guard, but no arms per se.) A royal warrant of September 12 1917 (read it here (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness_docs.htm#Warrant_of_Sep_12_1917)) discontinued the use of the Saxon inescutcheon in the arms of all members of the RF, including those who still had German paternal arms (the Schleswig-Holsteins and the Mountbattens), but also had been granted quarterings or inescutcheons of the royal arms because of their maternal descent. The same applied to the arms of the Connaughts (which were quartered with the arms of Fife and Duff.)

It did not apply to the Tecks / Cambridges whose German paternal arms (Württemberg and Swabia with Teck overall) were quartered with the pre-1837 royal arms, that is with an inescutcheon of Hanover!

Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 27, 2010, 11:49:57 AM
Considering how Welf became Guelph, I think they should have called themselves Guindesores instead of Windsor, à la normande.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on December 12, 2010, 09:45:15 PM
When people employ what I would propose to call "the Saxon Slur" and slag off the Windsors as merely disguised Saxe-Coburg-Gothas, are they aware of (the irony of) Saxe being the same as in "Anglo-Saxon", the prime component in the racial make-up of most of their subjects? Or if they object to the Mountbatten-Windsors as merely disguised Glücksburgs, are they aware of the fact that Glücksburg is indeed in Angeln, the same as in Anglo-Saxon and Ænglisc / English?

Do they object to Protestantism, since Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door of the Castle Church of the Elector of Saxony and later was protected by said prince?
If they protest that all this refers to Upper Saxony and that the followers of Hengist and Horsa came from Lower Saxony, do they know that was the home turf of another of their "alien German dynasties" - the Hanoverians!? Are they ashamed of the fact that English, in spite of having a massive French-derived vocabulary, basically is a Germanic language? Supposing they are monarchists, what is it they want instead? The same Norse-French mixture as in William the Conqueror? More Celtic, Welsh, Scottish or Gaelic dynasties?

Or just less Saxons and more Angles? Let's see.... (West) Anglia, or rather Cambridgeshire and Northamptonshire, have in fact produced two "purely English" dynasties, well, sort of "alternative royal dynasties": The Cromwells and the Spencers! I rest my case....
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Taren on December 15, 2010, 10:20:09 PM
I'm actually really interested in the change of name. Where would the document where the name change was announced be held? Would it be at the National Archives or Royal Archives?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on December 15, 2010, 10:26:55 PM
I'm actually really interested in the change of name. Where would the document where the name change was announced be held? Would it be at the National Archives or Royal Archives?
You mean that since it was a Royal Proclamation made under the Great Seal, there must be some cool, sealed heraldic parchment somewhere, as the original of the very mundane public poster looking like a wanted-poster out of the Wild West, which you can see for yourself online here (http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/windsor.html)?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Taren on December 16, 2010, 11:13:18 AM
There was no need for the sarcasm. I didn't know that Royal Proclamations were posted online. Now I do. Thank you.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 09, 2011, 06:28:03 PM
There was no need for the sarcasm. I didn't know that Royal Proclamations were posted online. Now I do. Thank you.

Sorry if I offended you, I couldn't resist being a little "langued gules in cheek" about the well-known, Wild West-looking proclamation. :-) But I'm earnest in wondering if there really also is a more elaborate document with the King's actual signature and seal in the archives.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 10, 2011, 10:56:02 AM
Lol, I knew that Wettin (which was considered, but discarded) sounds funny in English, as in "wettin' one's pants"), but I had never realized that with the correct, German pronunciation with stress on the second syllable (because it is a Slavic place name) it sounds just as bad (at least today, perhaps not in 1917! Like "wet teen". (Oh and imagine "de Wettin"! Like "dah Wet Teen"..... They could just as well have kept good old Sexy-Cowboy-Gotcha then!)


acutally, the correct German pronounciation would have the accent on the second syllable, but the phonetic sound is "Ve Teen".
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 10, 2011, 01:58:37 PM
acutally, the correct German pronounciation would have the accent on the second syllable, but the phonetic sound is "Ve Teen".
Yes, true. The funny question is whether an Anglophone would hear /ve'ti:n/ as Wet Teen. But Vet Teen would of course also be kind of funny.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 11, 2011, 07:08:42 PM
I guess the pronunciation issue may have been real. But, I think the long term historical impact of the name change was a big mistake. The heritage was lost and the "new" house was a faux-house name, that in the context of why we have the royals in the first place, totally misses the multi century point. Which may, in part, be why they are taken less and less serious as time goes on.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 11, 2011, 07:57:39 PM
But it is rather poignant that in 1920, just three years after the name change, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha ceased to exist as a political entity. One might ask: What is the use of clinging to a past that is no more?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 20, 2011, 11:10:16 AM
Well, "windsor" doesn't exist as a political entity.

however, Saxe Coburg Gotha's royal family does continue on today in spite of losses as political heads of state.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Clemence on April 21, 2014, 03:20:52 PM
May I ask if the family name is going to be just Mountbatten instead of Mountbatten - Windsor, in the future?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Превед on April 21, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
May I ask if the family name is going to be just Mountbatten instead of Mountbatten - Windsor, in the future?

Lol, if so they can just as well call themselves Romanov. After all Prince Philip's grandmother was a Romanov, just like his mother was a Battenberg. Or why not Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov, since Prince Philip is of the same Oldenburgian stock as the H-Gs.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Kalafrana on April 22, 2014, 11:19:07 AM
At the moment I would say that the family name will be plain Windsor for the foreseeable future. Mountbatten-Windsor doesn't really seem to have caught on, and the Earl of Wessex's daughter - the only one among the Queen's descendants who currently uses a surname day-to-day - is Lady Louise Windsor, not Mountbatten-Windsor.

Ann
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Clemence on April 22, 2014, 03:04:08 PM
I found out more on this matter on this video:

The Queen's Coronation: Behind Palace Doors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz9FDAskVvI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz9FDAskVvI)

(starting from 24:10 and on)
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: grandduchessella on April 22, 2014, 04:17:12 PM
At the moment I would say that the family name will be plain Windsor for the foreseeable future. Mountbatten-Windsor doesn't really seem to have caught on, and the Earl of Wessex's daughter - the only one among the Queen's descendants who currently uses a surname day-to-day - is Lady Louise Windsor, not Mountbatten-Windsor.

Ann

How I understood it, all the non-royal lines of Elizabeth and Phillip's descendants would bear it. Since Louise & James didn't have a royal title, I would think it would have started with them but perhaps the unusual circumstances there (since they should have been a Prince/Princess like Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie) prevented it? I don't know. I guess we'll have to wait until Harry has children to see what the surname is. Anne kind of threw some confusion into the issue when she signed her first marriage register Anne Mountbatten-Windsor as well. During the court case over the 2012 topless photos scandal, William was referred to as "Monsieur William Arthur Philip Louis Mountbatten-Windsor" by the courts of the French Republic.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Превед on April 22, 2014, 04:27:33 PM
I zink zey should do a little German twist and call zemselves von Oldenburg zu Windsor genannt Montbatten!
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Kalafrana on April 23, 2014, 03:29:09 AM
Ach so!!!

But, to be serious, the best and simplest solution would be to stick to Windsor, which we in Britain are all used to by now.

As a parallel, there are quite a number of Scottish peerages which can pass to a daughter if the holder has no sons. The earldom of Erroll is one example. The daughter's children in turn usually take their mother's surname, rather than their father's.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Clemence on June 25, 2014, 03:42:51 PM
It seems the new king of Spain is named ''of Spain AND Greece''!?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: Kalafrana on June 26, 2014, 03:52:50 AM
Interesting! Of course, his uncle Constantine is still de jure King of Greece (has he ever abdicated?), and Felipe is not his heir, since Constantine has two sons (and, I think, at least one daughter).

Do Greek royalties still style themselves 'of Greece and Denmark'?

Ann
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: grandduchessella on June 26, 2014, 08:40:11 AM
I believe the Greek royals do. The children of Alfonso XIII and Ena were Bourbon y Battenberg, the children of Infante Alfonso and Princess Beatrice were Orleans y Coburg--I guess this is the way of reflecting his maternal Greek roots. Bourbon y Glucksborg?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: trentk80 on June 26, 2014, 10:48:46 AM
It seems the new king of Spain is named ''of Spain AND Greece''!?

Spanish people have two surnames: the father's surname (which always comes first) and the mother's surname. The new King of Spain is called Felipe de Borbón y Grecia. 'Borbón' is his first surname and 'Grecia' is his second surname. This has nothing to do with Felipe having rights to the Greek throne or having a Greek royal title - he doesn't. 'Grecia' is just his second surname, nothing else.

By the way, during an interview, Queen Sofia explained that her surname is not 'Glucksburg', but 'Greece'. According to what she said, when King George I ascended the Greek throne, he took the surname '[of] Greece' and that's the surname the Greek royal family has always had (although people wrongly call them Glucksburgs). The surname 'Greece' in Spanish translates as 'Grecia', and that's why Felipe has that second surname.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: TimM on June 26, 2014, 05:12:17 PM
The change of name was because the old one was too German.  However, they didn't do it until three years into the war.  What took them so long?
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: CHRISinUSA on July 02, 2014, 11:15:31 AM
Anti-German sentiment had been growing throughout the Empire during the war years, but it reached its peak in March of 1917 by two major events.  First a heavy German aircraft which bore the unfortunate name of Gotha G. IV, began bombing London directly.  Second, on 15 March Nicholas II abdicated the Russian throne which raised the potential of the eventual abolition of all the monarchies of Europe. 

The King and his family were finally convinced to abandon all titles held under the German Crown and to change German titles and house names to Anglo versions. On 17 July 1917, George V issued the royal proclamation which formally established the House and Family of Windsor.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: TimM on July 05, 2014, 04:16:44 PM
Quote
The King and his family were finally convinced to abandon all titles held under the German Crown and to change German titles and house names to Anglo versions. On 17 July 1917, George V issued the royal proclamation which formally established the House and Family of Windsor.

Better to be safe than sorry, I guess.
Title: Re: Change of name to Windsor in 1917
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 01, 2020, 03:56:25 PM
Note the first Gotha raid on England was on 25 may 1917. online look up Gotha G IV. also on archive.org there is the RAF WW I official history:
"The War in the Air Being the Story of the Part Played in the Great War by the Royal Air Force" which does have some info on the air raids on England.

A good book on this subject "The Air Defense of Britain"