Alexander Palace Forum
Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Stuarts of Scotland => Topic started by: elisa_1872 on January 06, 2005, 05:40:24 AM
-
I remember reading that Mary Queen of Scots was among those of Empress Alexandra's ancestors. Can anyone explain exactly how this line may be traced?
Thanks in advance ::)
-
Most likely because Mary's son, James, took the English crown when Elizabeth died, and Alix was related to Queen Victoria.
-
Check out the thread Russian Roots. There are some great genealogy web sites.
The best book I've found for ref. is Lines of Sucession by Louda and Maclagn. Pages have pedigree charts of various countries and when wives are mentioned, the data takes you to a different chart.
The son of Jamas VI, son of Mary Queen of Scots, became James I King of Great Britian who was Georg of Hanover's ancestor and how he fell into the line of sucession to be King Georg I of England, House of Hanover...
The German House of Hanover was changed to the House of Windsor to give themselves a dividing line between the Germans during WW I and Queen Victoria's line has been known as the House of Windsor since then...
AGRBear
PS See:
Genealogy links: http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=roots;action=display;num=1093717443
Windsors: http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Windsor
-
Gen.
Nicholas II, House of Romanov m. Alexandra [Alix] who was the dau. of
Gen.
Louis IV, GD of Hesse m. Alice who was the dau. of
Gen.
Albert, House of Sax-Colburg & Gotha m. Victoria, Queen of Great Britian who was the dau. of
Gen.
Edward, Duke of Kent who was the son of
Gen.
George III, King of Great Britian, House of Hanover who was the son of
Gen.
Frederick Lewis, Pr. of Wales, who was the son of
Gen.
George II, House of Hanover, who was the son of
Gen.
George I, House of Hanover, who was the son of
Gen.
Ernest Aug, Elector of Hanover m. Sophia, the dau of
Gen.
Frederick V and Elizabeth Stuart, who was the dau. of
Gen.
James I, King of England, known also as James VI of Scotland who was the son of
Gen.
Mary, Queen of Scots and her second husband, Lord Darnley
AGRBear
-
All British monarchs are Mary's direct descendants and since Alix was QV's direct descendant she was also Mary's... A short time before Mary was executed she supposedly said something to the effect of "in my end is my beginning". She wasn't kidding! ;)
-
The son of Jamas VI, son of Mary Queen of Scots, became James I King of Great Britian
Actually, I believe that James VI of Scotland, Mary's son, himself became James I of England.
-
Yes, Helen, Mary's only surviving child, James, did reign as James the VI of Scotland and the 1st of England.
As has been well defined above, Alexandra Feodorovna was a descendant of Marie Stuart. It is an interesting thought that the same blood which coursed through the veins of Marie Stuart flowed through those of Alexandra Feodorovna. Although there appears to be no evidence of her having had any interest in the subject, undoubtedly Alexandra Feodorovna would have been fully aware of her ancestress' fate.
Marie Stuart and her tragic story is of worldwide endurance and fascination. A few years ago a book was published in Russia. It was titled 'The Axe, the Guillotine and the Bayonet'. It was based on the fate which united those three tragic queens - Marie Stuart, Marie Antoinette and Alexandra Feodorovna.
tsari
-
Tsaria that sounds like an intersting book. What did you make of it?
-
Dear Martyn
My Russian isn't great - it would have taken me around eighteen years, seven months and three and a half weeks to read, so I relied on a friend reading it aloud in translation - a real luxury... apart from the fact that, with the exception of the title, it was rather superficial.
A paperback, I think it must have been around 1996 when I purchased it in St Petersburg. It now resides in Gibraltar with the Russian friend who skimmed a translation.
Now that I have remembered, and thought, about it again, I realize perhaps it was an opportunity lost. The similarities and contrasts between these three ladies and their fates are worthy of serious study.
tsaria
-
Yes, i have always thought that this was possible!
which also means Alix could be related to my other fave of history..Elizabeth 1! ::) ;D
-
Elizabeth I and Mary, Queen of Scots were cousins, once removed.
Elizabeth's father, Henry VIII's sister Margaret was married to Mary's grandfather James IV of Scotland.
In the few hours left after the sentence of death being given, her, Mary spent her last hours on earth writing letters. The words she is reputed to have spoken were -
'Ma fin est ma commencement'
tsaria
-
which also means Alix could be related to my other fave of history..Elizabeth 1! ::) ;D
Yes, they both directly descended from Henry VII...
And in case you were wondering, that quote that Tsaria gave roughly translates "In my end is my beginning"...
-
lol, thanks for re-translating it..i thought i vaguely translated it, but i was wrong! ::)
and yes, i know that mary and elizabeth were cousins.
Oh ys, and that brings up another prospect, Alix was related by henry's marriage bond to Anne Boleyn, eh Helen? ;)
-
Alix was related by henry's marriage bond to Anne Boleyn, eh Helen? ;)
Nope, nothing to do with Anne Boleyn... ;) Only through Henry VII. Elizabeth was Henry VII's granddaughter through his son Henry VIII, while Marie Stuart was his great granddaughter through his daughter Margaret... Alix was Margaret's and Marie's direct descendant but not Henry VIII's or Elizabeth I's...
-
Nope, nothing to do with Anne Boleyn... ;) Only through Henry VII. Elizabeth was Henry VII's granddaughter through his son Henry VIII, while Marie Stuart was his great granddaughter through his daughter Margaret... Alix was Margaret's and Marie's direct descendant but not Henry VIII's or Elizabeth I's...
Well, it was a cool thought/idea.. ;)
-
Mary, Queen of Scots royal motto was "my ending is my beginning".
She was Queen of Scotland by birth, Queen of France by marriage, and Queen of England by right, or so legend goes.
She was married and widowed TWICE before she was 21.
The British Library records over 400 books written about Mary, Queen of Scots, more than anyone else. Fabulous!
I also read her grandmother was also her mother-in-law. How does that work out?
(PS: HM Queen Elizabeth II right to the British throne is solely due to Mary and not her so-called 'forebear' Elizabeth I. Elizaberth I died a virgin queen and has no ancestors.)
-
From Antonia Fraser's'mary Queen of Scots'...
'Once more, however, the repose of the queen of Scots was destined to be disturbed. In 1867 a search was instituted by Dean Stanley within the royal tombs of Westminster Abbey for the body of James I, whose position was unrecorded. It was eventually discovered in the tomb of Henry VII, the first Tudor and the first Stuart monarch of England lying appropriately together with Elizabeth of York, the woman who had made the foundation of both dynasties possible. But in the course of the search, among the places it was thought he might have appropriately chosen for his own sepulchre was the tomb of his mother. An entry was made below the monument to Mary, and at the foot of an ample flight of steps marked WAY was found a large vault of brick, twelve feet long, six feet high and seven feet wide. A startling and harrowing sight greeted the gaze of the Victorian searchers: the queen of Scots was far from lying alone in her tomb. A vast pile of lead coffins rose upwards from the floor, some of them obviously of children, some so small as to be of mere babies, all heaped together in confusion, amid urns of many different shapes, which were scattered all through the vault.
It was discoverd that Mary shared her catacomb with numbers of her descendants, including her grandson Henry, Prince of Wales, who died before his prime, her granddaughter Elizabeth of Bohemia, the Winter Queen, and her great-grandson Prince Rupert of the Rhine, amongst the most romantic of all the offshoots of the Stuart dynasty. Most poignant of all were the endless tiny coffins of the royal children who had died in infancy: here were found the the first ten children of James II, and one James Darnley, described as his natural son, as well as the eighteen pathetic babies born dead to Queen Anne, and her sole child to survive infancy, the young Duke of Gloucester.'
-
'Finally the coffin of the queen of Scots herself was found, against the north wall of the vault, lying below that of Arbella Stuart, that ill-fated scion of the royal house who had been the child-companion of Mary's captivity. The coffin itself was of remarkable size, and it was easy to see why it had been too heavy to carry in procession at Peterborough Cathedral at the first burial. But so securely had the royal body been wrapped in lead at the orders of the English government on the afternoon of the execution, that the casing had not given way in the slightest, even after nearly 300 years. The searchers felt profoundly moved even by this inanimate spectacle. No attempt was made to open it now. 'The presence of the fatal coffin which had received the headless corpse at Fotheringay,' wrote Dean Stanley, 'was sufficiently affecting without endeavouring to penetrate further into its mournful contents.' The vault was thus reverently tidied, the urns rearranged, and a list was made of the contents. But the queen's own coffin was left untouched, and the little children who surrounded her were not removed.
Meanwhile in the opposite chapel, underneath the monument to Queen Elizabeth I also raised by James, were found together in one grave the two daughters of Henry VIII, Mary Tudor and Elizabeth. Barren in life, they had been left to lie alone together in death. Mary, however lies amid her Stuart posterity, her face locked in the marble of repose on the monument above, and her hands clasped in prayer, her body in the vault below which harbours so many of her descendants. She who never reigned in England, who was born a queen of Scotland, and who died at the orders of an English queen, lies now in Westminster Abbey where every sovereign of Britain since her death has been crowned: from her every sovereign of Britain since her death has been directly descended, down to the present queen, who is in the thirteenth generation. As Mary herself embroidered so long ago at Sheffield on the royal cloth of state which was destined to hang over the head of a captive queen: In my end is my Beginning.'
-
HM Queen Elizabeth II right to the British throne is solely due to Mary...
All British monarchs since the Tudors owe their right to the throne to Mary!
-
If I remember rightly most of the crowned (and formely crowned) heads of Europe and many nobles and commonfolk (nowadays) are descended from Mary as well. I wonder if the childless Elizabeth I could have forseen such an event since she knew Mary's son James would succeed her. In the end Mary did have the last laugh on her cousin who condemned her.
-
If I remember rightly most of the crowned (and formely crowned) heads of Europe and many nobles and commonfolk (nowadays) are descended from Mary as well.
Yes! Through Victoria, who was also Mary's descendant...
aI wonder if the childless Elizabeth I could have forseen such an event since she knew Mary's son James would succeed her. In the end Mary did have the last laugh on her cousin who condemned her.
Well, if we are going to get technical, then all aforementioned people descended from Henry Tudor, Elizabeth's grandfather and Mary's great grandfather, or even Jasper Tudor (I think this was Henry's grandfather?). It's not really so much about the last laugh or a bigger achievement than Elizabeth's, as technically all Mary did was give birth to one male child, which was a kind of an "accidental" event, not even something she could have controlled specifically, and the rest was a series of deliberate or "semi-accidental" events which led to the current descendant situation... But it could have conceivably gone a different way too... ;) :)
-
Moreover. All, all of them, included anne Boleyn, descended from Alfred the Great, Tudors and Stuarts.and all of them can ascend to Charlemagne trough norman ways , Plantagenets and Warenne. They descend all too from Pelayo! the first king of Asturias, for the Lancaster-trastamara connections.
Direct male line Tudor extinguished, but not female.So that Stuarts continued having in their veins a portion blood Tudor and most of actual royals have their Tudor drop. So had Alix de Hesse and so have Elizabeth II and Juan carlos I of Spain
I am quite ignorant in ADN advances, but I wonder
humbly this: It would be possible to find a common chromosome between Henry VIII and Prince Charles of Wales, for example? Would it be possible (I mean for the time) of course if we pass over potencial infidelities. What would reveal the analysis of a Henri VIII bone compared whirh a blood drope of Charles? I tried to start studying ADN for beginners :-/ but it's too much!!
So that i couldn't have satisfactory answer to questions like this. Technical sites are too diversified and touch legal aspects or archaeological , but there is very very few apply to genealogy concrete aspects
-
Well, if we are going to get technical, then all aforementioned people descended from Henry Tudor, Elizabeth's grandfather and Mary's great grandfather, or even Jasper Tudor (I think this was Henry's grandfather?). It's not really so much about the last laugh or a bigger achievement than Elizabeth's, as technically all Mary did was give birth to one male child, which was a kind of an "accidental" event, not even something she could have controlled specifically, and the rest was a series of deliberate or "semi-accidental" events which led to the current descendant situation... But it could have conceivably gone a different way too... ;) :)
It's not a matter of who had the bigger achievement -I think both had their own merits- but it's ironic that Elizabeth condemned Mary to death and today Mary has a lot of descendants and Elizabeth has none.
-
Ianksareit wrote:" also read her grandmother was also her mother-in-law. How does that work out?
Well, Mary's father was James V and his mother was Margaret Tudor. Margaret Tudor was therefore Mary's grandmother. i don't get the Mother in law bit though. Mary's second husband was Henry Darnley. His mother was Lady Margaret Douglas (and therefore Mary's mother-in-law). Margaret's mother was Margaret Tudor( mary's granny). There is the link as far as I can work it, hope this helps ;)
-
so many things to reply to... i don't know where to start...
jasper tudor is not an ancestor of any royal because he didn't have any children. his older brother, edmund, was the father of english king henry 7th and that's where it all starts actually :)...
mary stuart's mother in law (the second one, mother of her second husband, henry darnley) was the daughter of her grandmother from her second marriage, she was basically mary's father's half sister :)... so she and her husband were cousins :).
james 6th of scotland was mary's son with darnley and he became james 1st of england when elizabeth died.
i love these genealogy stuff... i used to spend hours on genealogy sites :D
-
Dear Martyn
My Russian isn't great - it would have taken me around eighteen years, seven months and three and a half weeks to read, so I relied on a friend reading it aloud in translation - a real luxury... apart from the fact that, with the exception of the title, it was rather superficial.
A paperback, I think it must have been around 1996 when I purchased it in St Petersburg. It now resides in Gibraltar with the Russian friend who skimmed a translation.
Now that I have remembered, and thought, about it again, I realize perhaps it was an opportunity lost. The similarities and contrasts between these three ladies and their fates are worthy of serious study.
tsaria
Indeed. Even reading the title of that book made me want to read it. It's unfortunate it was superficial. I think someone should do a better job in English of writing such a book. Alexandra identified with Marie Antoinette, and there is much there to discuss. In addition, Mary, Queen of Scots blood ran in the veins of Alexandra, and the Radzinsky bio of Nicholas II does a good job talking about that. I am curious, though does anyone know if Marie Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots were related at all? I think that would be an interesting link, but I can't see that she would be descended from her, except perhaps through that sister of Charles II, who married a French royal, and had two daughters, I think. But, that is unlikely. I am no expert on genealogy of MA, so would be happy if someone could help me out.
-
Dear Martyn
My Russian isn't great - it would have taken me around eighteen years, seven months and three and a half weeks to read, so I relied on a friend reading it aloud in translation - a real luxury... apart from the fact that, with the exception of the title, it was rather superficial.
A paperback, I think it must have been around 1996 when I purchased it in St Petersburg. It now resides in Gibraltar with the Russian friend who skimmed a translation.
Now that I have remembered, and thought, about it again, I realize perhaps it was an opportunity lost. The similarities and contrasts between these three ladies and their fates are worthy of serious study.
tsaria
Indeed. Even reading the title of that book made me want to read it. It's unfortunate it was superficial. I think someone should do a better job in English of writing such a book. Alexandra identified with Marie Antoinette, and there is much there to discuss. In addition, Mary, Queen of Scots blood ran in the veins of Alexandra, and the Radzinsky bio of Nicholas II does a good job talking about that. I am curious, though does anyone know if Marie Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots were related at all? I think that would be an interesting link, but I can't see that she would be descended from her, except perhaps through that sister of Charles II, who married a French royal, and had two daughters, I think. But, that is unlikely. I am no expert on genealogy of MA, so would be happy if someone could help me out.
Imperial Angel
The Last Tsar does mention the "dark blood of Mary Stuart stirring" in AF veins. I think I understand the geneology of this but how does these two women relate to Charlemagne? i know i read that. And I know you are pretty well versed in Mary Stuart. Can you help?
Lori
-
Mary Queen of Scots
l
James VI /1
l
Elisabeth Queen of Bohemia
l
Karl Ludwig, Elector Palatine
l
Elisabeth Charlotte, Duchess of Orleans (Lieslotte!)
l
Elisabeth Charlotte Duchess of Lorraine
l
Franz Stefan, Holy Roman Emperor
l
Marie Antoinette
-
Thanks! It is very interesting how related they were and intertwined. Was Elisabeth-Charlotte the grand daughter of Elisabeth, Queen of Bohemia? It seems so from your genealogy. Could you post more on that?
-
She was, as is clear from Bell's post. Liselotte was the daughter of Charles Louis, the Winter Queen's eldest surviving son.
-
Okay. I don't know much about the Winter Queen's children. Why then did the British royal descent go through her daughter Sophia to George I? Why didn't it go through Elisabeth of Bohemia's eldest surviving son, and his children? Is because they already had the Palatinate?
-
Both Charles Louis and his son were dead by the time the Act of Settlement was passed. Liselotte and her issue were Catholic, as were all of Sophia's other surviving children and their descendants.
-
Yes, I guess that Charles Louis' younger children (the Raugraves and Raugravines) were passed over because of the bigamous nature of his second marriage...... not sure though!
-
Lieslotte lived for a time with her grandmother the daughter of James I. In later life she met her grandson ( though maybe only once), the father of Marie Antoinette. :o
-
Yes, i have always thought that this was possible!
which also means Alix could be related to my other fave of history..Elizabeth 1! ::) ;D
and she is! :) through Mary Stuart was Margaret Tudor's grandmother, and Margaret Tudor was an aunt of The Virgin Queen aka Liz the first.
-
Dear Martyn
My Russian isn't great - it would have taken me around eighteen years, seven months and three and a half weeks to read, so I relied on a friend reading it aloud in translation - a real luxury... apart from the fact that, with the exception of the title, it was rather superficial.
A paperback, I think it must have been around 1996 when I purchased it in St Petersburg. It now resides in Gibraltar with the Russian friend who skimmed a translation.
Now that I have remembered, and thought, about it again, I realize perhaps it was an opportunity lost. The similarities and contrasts between these three ladies and their fates are worthy of serious study.
tsaria
Indeed. Even reading the title of that book made me want to read it. It's unfortunate it was superficial. I think someone should do a better job in English of writing such a book. Alexandra identified with Marie Antoinette, and there is much there to discuss. In addition, Mary, Queen of Scots blood ran in the veins of Alexandra, and the Radzinsky bio of Nicholas II does a good job talking about that. I am curious, though does anyone know if Marie Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots were related at all? I think that would be an interesting link, but I can't see that she would be descended from her, except perhaps through that sister of Charles II, who married a French royal, and had two daughters, I think. But, that is unlikely. I am no expert on genealogy of MA, so would be happy if someone could help me out.
Imperial Angel
The Last Tsar does mention the "dark blood of Mary Stuart stirring" in AF veins. I think I understand the geneology of this but how does these two women relate to Charlemagne? i know i read that. And I know you are pretty well versed in Mary Stuart. Can you help?
Lori
Through Charlemagne came the Normans . . . I think. I'm not positive about that, but some way or another, the first royal house of England came through Charlemagne. William the Conqueror, hence his name, conquered England, through him came Queen Matilda who married Geoffrey Plantagenet of Anjou, they had a son Henry II and through him and Eleanor of Aquitaine came Edward III and his sons. Edward's grandchildren spent most of their time fighting over the throne, and whoever took the throne of England never had a secure grasp on it. Edward III's son, John of Gaunt, had a great-granddaughter named Margaret Beaufort. Margaret Beaufort was married at twelve to Edmund Tudor, and they had a son together, name Henry Tudor. Henry Tudor claimed the throne of England, became King Henry VII and found a whole new dynasty. He already was Plantagenet (though half-royal), but Elizabeth of York (a woman who came through another one of Edward III's sons) had a more reasonable claim to the throne than he did. He married her to strenghthen his own claim to the throne, thus uniting the English houses of Lancaster and York. They had eight children, three surviving to adulthood, one of them being Margaret Tudor. Margaret was married to James IV of Scotland, and they had James V of Scotland whose daughter was Mary, Queen of Scots. After Elizabeth I died, Mary's son (Margaret's great-grandson) became King of England and therefore King of all of Britain. Through him came the houses of Hanover (and a Russian marriage in between, which makes Nicholas II a descendant of the Tudors and Stuarts) or Windsor, and so Alix, being Queen Victoria's granddaugher, had Stuart/Tudor/Plantagenet/Charlemagne blood in her veins, as did her children, and even her husband because of that Romanov marriage.
That being explained, now all you have to do is tell me you understood it ;). if you go to wikipedia, they have fabulous family trees there (though a bit inaccurate, though it will let you get a better sense out of what I just said). Just type in: Category:Family Trees in the search box.
-
Charlemagne was never king in England. A wonderful book by Mike Ashley " British Monarchs" can trace the kings of the British Isles to Roman Times and into legend
-
No, Charlemagne was never King of England; but William the Conqueror was descended from him.
-
Every royal family would like to claim Charlemagne as an ancestor. Here is a wonderful site exploring the reality of these claims...so often found false .http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GERMANY,%20Kings.htm
-
Alix was also related to the Tudors, as Mary, Queen of Scots's grandmother was Margaret Tudor, wife of James IV of Scotland, but sister of Henry VIII!!!!!!!! I thought that was awesome.
-
Every British Monarch from James VI and I and their descendants which include both Alexandra and Nicholas II *he was descended from James through both his parents as well* have to line of descent from Henry VII and his wife Elizabeth of York.
Line 1 - Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary of Scots - James VI and I
Line 2 - Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - Lady Margaret Douglas - Henry Lord Darnley - James VI and I
##
-
Every royal family would like to claim Charlemagne as an ancestor. Here is a wonderful site exploring the reality of these claims...so often found false .http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GERMANY,%20Kings.htm
Every royal family in Europe DOES have Charlemagne as ancestor. the descent comes through Judith of Flanders who was his granddaughter (daughter of his son, Charles the Bald). She married Baldwin of Flanders (after she married Ethelwulf of Wessex - no issue there). Their son was Baldwin II, whose son was Arnulf I, whose son was Baldwin III, whose son was Arnulf II, whose son was Baldwin IV, whose son was Baldwin V, whose daughter was.... Matilda of Flanders, wife of William the Conqueror. So all monarchs of Britain, starting with Henry I, were descended from Charlemagne.
I honestly believe there's no royal in Europe right now descending from Willaim the Conqueror, but feel free to prove me wrong :).
-
Ilyala, as far as I know, the current reigning houses of Europe - Liechtenstein, Denmark, Norway, Spain, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Sweden, Belgium, Monaco and the UK (obviously) - are descended from William the Conqueror.
-
And you could add the deposed ones to that list as well.
-
First of all, my apologies: Charles the Bald is not the son but grandson of Charlemagne (son of Louis the Pious).
Second of all, William the Conqueror's dad, Robert the Magnificent, was the son of Judith of Brittany. She was the daughter of Ermengarde of Anjou who was the daughter of Adele de Vermandois. Adele de Vermandois was the daughter of Robert de Vermandois, son of Herbert II de Vermandois, son of Herbert I de Vermandois, son of Pepin de Vermandois. Pepin was the son of Bernard of Italy, who was Charlemagne's grandson through his son Pepin of Italy.
Just another link from Charlemagne to William the Conqueror.