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Imperial Russia and Romanov Links => News Links => Topic started by: J_Kendrick on July 26, 2012, 09:25:13 AM

Title: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 26, 2012, 09:25:13 AM
 From Today's Interfax

2012-07-26 16:54:00
New proof will hopefully end dispute over royal remains authenticity - House of Romanov (updated)


Moscow, July 26, Interfax - The House of Romanov will be guided by the Russian Orthodox Church's position on the authenticity of the remains of the family of the last Russian tsar Nicholas II.

The House of Romanov head, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, will recognize the remains buried at the Sts Peter and Paul Cathedral in St. Petersburg as those of the royal family, if the Russian Orthodox Church says they are authentic, the House of Romanov spokesman Alexander Zakatov told Interfax on Thursday.

The Russian Orthodox Church and the House of Romanov have not recognized yet that the remains are authentic, citing the absence of sufficient evidence.

It emerged on Thursday that the Moscow Patriarchate may change its position on the "Yekaterinburg remains."

Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia told the Holy Synod in Kiev on Thursday that important information has arrived from New York, where the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is headquartered, connected with circumstances of the death of the imperial family. "I hope these circumstances will help shape our position, including on the so-called 'Yekaterinburg remains,'" the Russian Patriarch said.

"We have learnt that material evidence - a report by investigator Nikolay Sokolov, [who probed the execution of the royal family in 1919 on commission from Admiral Alexander Kolchak] - was discovered in Brussels some time ago, when the church built in commemoration of the martyr-tsar was being restored," Zakatov said.

"Perhaps these materials and additional tests will throw light on some aspects of the situation. It would be premature to speculate on radical change, but Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has been informed of the latest developments by Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia," he said.

"We hope a new investigation will lead us to more objective results than those obtained by a commission in 1998," he added.

"The Russian Orthodox Church's refusal to recognize the Yekaterinburg remains as authentic were due to serious doubts. If these doubts are dispelled, the church will probably change its position. And in this case the head of the House of Romanov will join the church in recognizing the remains as authentic," Zakatov said.

He said that lead containers were found when a wall of the church was being restored in Brussels, and one carried a letter about the history of this material evidence, he said.

"Investigator Sokolov handed the material evidence to Prince Shirinsky-Shikhmatov at one time. Then the prince's son handed it over to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. It was initially kept at an Orthodox church in Paris and was then passed to the church under construction in Brussels," Zakatov said.

"The lead containers carried glass jars filled with soil from the Ganina Yama site where the bodies of the royal family and their domestic servants were burned," he said.

"The glass jars are filled with soil and clay mixed with tissues that remained after the bodies were burned. This provides certain genetic matter for further tests," he said.

Eleven people, including members of the Russian Imperial Family and people from their entourage, were shot at the Urals regional council presidium's order in the early hours of July 17, 1918.

A grave with nine bodies was found on Staraya Koptyakovskaya Road near Yekaterinburg in July 1991. The remains were identified as those of Emperor Nicholas II, his 46-year-old wife Alexandra Fyodorovna, their daughters Olga, 22, Tatyana, 21, and Anastasia, 17, and their servants Yevgeny Botkin, 53, Anna Demidova, 40, Aloizy Trupp, 62, and Ivan Kharitonov, 48.

The remains of two more people were discovered during archaeological excavation works 70 kilometers south of the first grave on July 26, 2007. The remains have still not been buried, but numerous expert analyses indicate that the remains were most likely those of Crown Prince Alexei and his sister Maria.

The Presidium of the Russian Supreme Court ruled to rehabilitate Nicholas II and his family members on October 1, 2008.

The Investigative Committee said in January 2011 that it had completed an investigation into the death of Nicholas II, his family members and entourage and closed the criminal case.

-30-
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Inok Nikolai on July 26, 2012, 09:46:42 AM
Here are the links for the article in English and Russian:


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9587

New proof will hopefully end dispute over royal remains authenticity - House of Romanov



http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=46637
В Доме Романовых надеются, что новые свидетельства помогут поставить точку в вопросе о подлинности "екатеринбургских останков"

*** В Брюсселе найдены материалы белогвардейского следователя Соколова
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: edubs31 on July 26, 2012, 10:00:54 AM
Thanks Inok, as always!

I guess all that's left then is the dispute as to whether the female remains found separately from most of the rest of the captives is that of Maria or Anastasia...not that it really matters one way or the other to me. They died together and have since all been found is the what's important.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Rodney_G. on July 26, 2012, 02:48:46 PM
Well, Interfax is wrong about the location of the two newly discovered sets of remains , at least their location. They obviously weren't found 70 kilometers but more like 70 meters, if that. 70 kilometers are about  44 miles from the mass grave. I think not.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Inok Nikolai on July 26, 2012, 03:33:57 PM
Well, Interfax is wrong about the location of the two newly discovered sets of remains , at least their location. They obviously weren't found 70 kilometers but more like 70 meters, if that. 70 kilometers are about  44 miles from the mass grave. I think not.

Well, the last part of the article in English, from the words "eleven people..., is not present in the Russian original.

It seems that that was added as background material by the editors / translators of the English version.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Rodney_G. on July 26, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Well, Interfax is wrong about the location of the two newly discovered sets of remains , at least their location. They obviously weren't found 70 kilometers but more like 70 meters, if that. 70 kilometers are about  44 miles from the mass grave. I think not.

Well, the last part of the article in English, from the words "eleven people..., is not present in the Russian original.

It seems that that was added as background material by the editors / translators of the English version.
Yes,as I read the article I wanted to find who was actually making that claim. It was obviously basic background material as you note but which seemed to come from Interfax. Equally obviously, whoever provided that bit about the remains' location  was unfamiliar with the locale and the basic facts of the scene there in either 1918 or at the time of the unearthing of the nine skeletons in 1991.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: rgt9w on August 19, 2012, 08:20:37 AM
At this time, no testing to be allowed on relics in Brussels.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1439636/rocor-refuses-research-on-royal-remains/
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Tsarfan on August 19, 2012, 09:15:57 AM
I hope everyone here realizes that John Kendrick, who started this thread, has argued for years that Alexei survived the massacre and died decades later in Canada under the name of Heino Tammet.  So there is an agenda at work here.

It does not matter whether the Church releases any supposed new genetic material for testing or not.  Sufficient DNA samples have been obtained to do reliable and replicated testing that has been peer-reviewed and is generally accepted by the scientific community as dispositive of the Romanov identities of seven bodies found in the two Ekaterinburg sites.

The ROC's position (and that of that faction of the Romanov family that still entertains hope of a restoration), whatever it turns out to be, will be based not on science but on arcane politics relating to the their internal agendas.  If they deem it now convenient that all the immediate Imperial Family died in 1918 and their remains found, the "new evidence" will show it.  If they deem it still inconvenient, the "new evidence" will be fraught with difficulties, questions, and uncertainties.

It's just that simple.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: LadyHezter on August 19, 2012, 05:34:59 PM
Well, to be fair to Mr. Kendrick,  I posted  "hints" of  this  information on another tread -The Final Chapter-  06.59 am, 26/7, and Mr. Kendrick posted the  same (FULL) information 07.25 am, the same day, starting a new tread.
And I have no agenda in this-only that I hope that there will be an agreement between the different positions among those involved, so Alexei and his sister finally can be buried  with their family in St.Petersburg.  Simply to  be able to write the last page, in the final chapter, after all these years.

regards,
LadyH
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Tsarfan on August 19, 2012, 07:44:12 PM
Simply to  be able to write the last page, in the final chapter, after all these years.

The last past of the final chapter has been written with the replication of the DNA findings across multiple accredited labs using samples from multiple sources.  If you think any pronouncement of any church or any new evidence from any source is going to wrap things up for a cadre of diehard believers in fairy tales or people whose agendas make the deaths of the Imperial Seven in 1918 inconvenient, then more power to you.  For these people, the case will never close, because it must not close.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: LadyHezter on August 19, 2012, 08:06:20 PM
Well-  I should have written--- FOR ME,PERSONALLY- , it  will be the last  chapter!
After the funeral, if I´m still alive then, the chapter is closed for good.

L.H
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Tsarfan on August 19, 2012, 10:32:33 PM
I meant to write "the last page" in my above post, not "the last past".  Sorry.  In too big a hurry.

I do understand a personal need to see the remains given the recognition of what they are and given a proper burial.  And I hope you do get to see the day, L.H.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: J_Kendrick on August 20, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
Investigator Solovyov's response to the Church:

From Today's Interfax... August 20th 2012
14:14:00

Materials on Romanov family execution found in Brussels can be studied without resuming official investigation - Investigations Committee


Moscow, August 20, Interfax - The Russian Investigations Committee currently does not see any good reasons to resume the investigation into the killing of Nicholas II in connection with the materials by White Guard investigator Nikolay Sokolov in a Brussels church.

"There will probably be no initiatives from us to resume the criminal case. If the church files a request, we will decide what to do," Vladimir Solovyov, senior investigator with the Main Criminalistics Department of the Investigations Committee who investigated the case involving the killing of the tsar's family, told Interfax on Monday.

"We don't know for sure yet what has been found in Brussels," Solovyov said.

"We have no position that a criminal case will not be opened. Everything depends on what has been found. However, it's no longer 1992, when he did not have ay evidence. Now that a lot of tests have been performed another proof of that the remains are those of the tsar's family are unlikely to give us anything new," Solovyov said.

"We have no doubt that the remains are those of the tsar's family. As to the materials found in Brussels, the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia have not asked the Investigations Committee to perform additional studies. Such studies can be performed without opening a criminal case," Solovyov said.

According to earlier reports, materials by investigator Sokolov, who investigated the killing of Russia's last Tsar Nicholas II and his family on the orders of Admiral Kolchak in 1919, were found during the reconstruction of the Church of Job the Long-Suffering in Brussels.

Representatives of the Romanov family said a study of the Brussels materials is likely to yield evidence on the issue of the authenticity of the tsar's family remains.

In January 2011, the Investigations Committee completed the investigation into the criminal case involving the killing of Nicholas II's family, recognizing the remains found near Yekaterinburg as those of the tsar's family.

The Russian Orthodox Church and the Romanov family have not recognized the remains as those of the tsar's family.

In late July 2012, it became known that the Moscow patriarchate may reconsider its stance on the "Yekaterinburg remains." Patriarch Krill told the Holy Synod in Kyiv that important information on the circumstances of the death of the tsar's family had been received from New York, where the spiritual center of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia is located.

The Romanov family said it will accept the position of the Russian Orthodox Church on the issue of the remains of Russia's last emperor.

-30-

See: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9761
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: blessOTMA on August 20, 2012, 12:28:50 PM
Quote
"We don't know for sure yet what has been found in Brussels," Solovyov said.
I have been wondering if this is for real, is it the finger( said to be Alexandra's)  found at the Four Brothers mine during the first investigation? What else could it be? What I fear is this being used to make  call to exhume those who have already been buried at Peter and Paul in order to "compare " "remains',  when really it is to have all of them back  in a lab, not just Alexi and his sister. Call me cynical.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Tsarfan on August 20, 2012, 12:52:47 PM
The Romanov family said it will accept the position of the Russian Orthodox Church on the issue of the remains of Russia's last emperor.


Yes.  Why rely on science to determine the identity of remains when the Church can do it better?

Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 20, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
   Referencing Reply 13:
   An exhumation at SS. Peter and Paul may not be needed to "compare" the bones, etc. under discussion at Brussels.  I feel (and this is only MY opinion) that actual samples of the physical bones that are now buried within the Cathedral at Saint Petersburg have been/were retained for future "comparison" or similiar need.  
   However, having personally visited the present burial site several times, I am of the opinion that in a "mechanical" sense, the opening of the N II burial vault would be a far simpler process as compared to the older imperial tombs within the Cathedral.  The seeking of such approval is another matter.    Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: LadyHezter on August 20, 2012, 02:31:13 PM
I meant to write "the last page" in my above post, not "the last past".  Sorry.  In too big a hurry.

I do understand a personal need to see the remains given the recognition of what they are and given a proper burial.  And I hope you do get to see the day, L.H.
Thanks, Tsarfan.
I did not want to be  rude,I only felt a little "attacked", that´s all.
Regards
LadyH
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: blessOTMA on August 20, 2012, 05:15:53 PM
  Referencing Reply 13:
   An exhumation at SS. Peter and Paul may not be needed to "compare" the bones, etc. under discussion at Brussels.  I feel (and this is only MY opinion) that actual samples of the physical bones that are now buried within the Cathedral at Saint Petersburg have been/were retained for future "comparison" or similar need.
I hope you are right. But I believe the goal is to get them out of Peter and Paul and back into a lab drawer and so quite possibly " mere samples"  will not be deemed sufficient. The agenda seems to be to keep it all in flux forever.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Tsarfan on August 20, 2012, 07:09:57 PM
The agenda seems to be to keep it all in flux forever.


Exactly.

Very few people, if any, doubt the identity of the remains separate from the question of whether someone survived.  People who don't see the possibility of anyone surviving that massacre seem to have no trouble accepting the hard science of the DNA identifications.

The people who doubt the DNA are almost invariably lined up behind some pretender to Romanov status and have sometimes put their, uh, "professional" reputations as journalists or authors on the line over it.

Over the years we've seen some interesting claims, with Anna Anderson's being only the most famous and, though strained, at least not the most ridiculous.  My three favorites are:

Marga Boodts, who claimed to have been hidden in a sack of hay and shipped from Ekaterinburg to Vladivostock -- a distance of over 3,100 miles, and a very long way to go in a sack without a bathroom.  (Boodts was, of course, recognized as Olga Nicholaevna by Prince Sigismund of Prussia, who also recognized Anna Anderson as Anastasia before being disinherited by his mother.  A sterling endorsement if ever there was one.)

Suzanna de Graaff, who claimed to be the secret fifth daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra.  (This claim was recognized by Anna Anderson which, one would think, would have been ample proof that she was a delusional crackpot without needing any DNA to establish it.)

Heino Tammet, a Canadian whose strongest proof that he was Alexei was an undescended testicle (which was examined by the Royal Canadian Mounties at his invitation) and a form letter from Buckingham Palace addressed to Alexei Romanov and thanking the self-identified tsesarevitch for his congratulatory telegram upon the occasion of a British royal wedding.

And, finally, although a rather bizarre detour off the main Anderson claim, there was the claim that Anderson's DNA actually was properly identified as non-Romanov because she was a changeling, substituted at birth for the real daughter who died.

If you want a sample of just how strange the "logic" of these survivor adherents can be, here is a quote off John Kendrick's website meant, I suppose, to show how well-received was his hypothesis that Heino was Alexei:

"I must express my gratitude to His Holiness Alexei II, Patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Moscow and All Russia for the Christmas cards that he has sent for the past six years . . . .  Russia's Dr. Pavel Ivanov appeared to mistake me for a fellow scientist the first time that we spoke on the telephone.  He hasn't answered my letters now since September 1995.  The late Dr. William Maples at the University of Florida stopped talking the year before that.  England's Dr. Peter Gill sent photocopies of his 1994 NATURE GENETICS article without ever saying a word . . . . Richard and Marina Schweitzer (Granddaughter of the Tsar's Doctor Evgeny Botkin) have always been most kind on the telephone . . . .  Greg King (THE LAST EMPRESS) had said back in 1994 he would pay us a visit, but never came."

I'm impressed.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Forum Admin on August 20, 2012, 09:00:04 PM
The genetic sequencing of each sample has been done and stored. There is no need to open the burial place to "re test".  The samples are what they are.  Five different labs have, on two separate occasions sequenced and examined the DNA results.  Without QUESTION of any kind: One older male and one older female are the parents to four females and one adolescent male, who are all full genetic siblings to each other not to mention 100% the children of said older male and female. The older male parent matches precisely to the known control DNA sequence of Grand Duke George Alexandrovich (son of Alexander III) including a nearly unique haplytype mutation.  The older female parent matches 100% the Queen Victoria mtDNA and shows a close familial full DNA relationship to HH Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh.

As Dr. Teri Melton who performed both sets of testing said to me "They can re test all they want. The results will always be the same.  The results we got will never be less conclusive, but can only become more conclusive with more loci tested."
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: blessOTMA on August 21, 2012, 01:54:35 AM
...As Dr. Teri Melton who performed both sets of testing said to me "They can re test all they want. The results will always be the same.  The results we got will never be less conclusive, but can only become more conclusive with more loci tested."
Wow, thanks for posting
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 22, 2012, 10:33:13 AM
The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has just released the following statement concerning this matter:

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2012/20120822_enstatement.html

The Russian text is here:
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/2012/20120822_statement.html


NEW YORK: August 22, 2012

Statement from the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia


During its regular session on June 14, 2012, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia deliberated on the matter of the discovery of the remains and other possessions relating to the martyrdom of the Royal Family which had been hidden in the walls of the stavropighial Memorial Church in Brussels. 

During renovations on St Job the Much-Suffering Church, which is also dedicated to the memory of Holy Royal Martyr Nicholas II, the Royal Family and all those martyred during that time of troubles, a sealed lead cylinder was discovered along with a glass tube with a handwritten document containing an inventory of the contents of the cylinder. 

The fact that the Memorial Church contained these remains and other objects connected with the brutal murder of the Royal Family in Ekaterinburg had been known to the Synod of Bishops. It was also know that they were handed over by the investigator of the murder of the Royal Family, NA Sokolov, before his death (November 23, 1924), to Prince Alexei Alexandrovich Shirinsky-Shikhmatov, and in 1940 were given to Metropolitan Seraphim (Lukianov), who at the time headed the Western European Diocese, and that further, on October 1, 1950, when the Memorial Church was consecrated by Metropolitan Anastassy, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, they were inserted into a sealed lead cylinder and built into the walls of the church.

The Synod of Bishops did not deem it proper to organize a search for the sealed capsule following the death of all the living witnesses, though naturally, over the recent two decades, many people exhibited an active interest in its existence. 
Now, after its discovery, in light of the fact that the important question of the remains of the Royal Family is coming to a final conclusion based on new evidence and serious scientific research, and since controversy yet remains, the Synod of Bishops expresses its willingness to cooperate in the further study of this matter on the basis of the discovery together with the Church in Russia. An absolute condition of such research will be a pious attitude towards everything relating to the martyric end of the Royal Family and its faithful servants.

The Synod of Bishops believes and hopes that this will help achieve the final answer to this matter, which is so important to the Russian Orthodox Church.

 
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: LadyHezter on August 22, 2012, 11:44:41 AM
Thank You very much Inok Nikolai for posting this !

Regards
LadyH
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: Tsarfan on August 22, 2012, 02:10:13 PM
I did not want to be  rude,I only felt a little "attacked", that´s all.

And you should have.  I did not realize how punchy my response was until I re-read it after the window for editing had closed.  Some of the nonsense here invites a punchy response . . . and then some.

Your post did not, and I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Call for comparison tests of relics from Orthodox Church in Brussels
Post by: LadyHezter on August 22, 2012, 08:24:07 PM
Don´t worry,dear Tsarfan-I´m fine. ( i really mean it !)
regards
Ladyh