Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Lady Macduff on January 21, 2013, 10:35:34 AM

Title: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Lady Macduff on January 21, 2013, 10:35:34 AM
I know no eye witness accounts mention Anastasia bringing Jemmy down into the murder room. Giliard and Gibbes identified the non-human bones in the mass grave as belonging to Jemmy, but in FOTR King and Wilson talk about how the guards stabbed Ortino as he was barking while they were carrying out Tatiana's body. As far as we know, Joy was the only captive to survive the night of the murders. So Jemmy had to have gone down into the cellar with Anastasia, right?

Just something I've wondered about for a long time.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: mitia on January 21, 2013, 12:17:50 PM
....and the following question might be "why was Jemmy taken downstairs whilst Ortipo was left upstairs ?".....
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Lady Macduff on January 21, 2013, 02:39:21 PM
The best reason I can think of is that they were told not to bring anything with them, and Tatiana was far more of a "rules" person than her sister. I'm sure it must have been hard for her to leave her pet, but there was never any real indication that they wouldn't be coming back. As for Joy, I assume there was no one who could have carried him down.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Rodney_G. on January 21, 2013, 05:54:46 PM
I don't know that Jemmy was necessarily brought downstairs into the cellar by anyone. Maybe. I think not; it would likely have been commented on by some of the participants/witnesses. My understanding is that Jemmy was barking loudly at the top of the stairs in the aftermath of the kilings, as the bodies were being brought out to the waiting truck, thus getting on the already shaky nerves of those men. It was easier to stab her and shut her up  than to soothe her .
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Lady Macduff on January 21, 2013, 06:27:24 PM
According to Fate of the Romanovs, though, that's what happened to Ortino.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Jen_94 on January 21, 2013, 06:37:05 PM
I've always wondered what happen to Jemmy too, that fateful night...
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: mitia on January 22, 2013, 07:37:21 AM
"The best reason I can think of is that they were told not to bring anything with them, and Tatiana was far more of a "rules" person than her sister. I'm sure it must have been hard for her to leave her pet, but there was never any real indication that they wouldn't be coming back"

This makes sense to me, and I agree with you, as far as I know it is Ortipo who was "left" upstairs.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Rodney_G. on January 22, 2013, 10:51:22 AM
I most probably have confused Jemmy and Ortipo in my scenario, though not definitively. That is, the identification of the dog's body found at the minepit,  , along with a photo of it , is of Jemmy. But the dog stabbed at Ipatiev House by a guard was not identified by name or breed  or body type. Very few of the guards, in fact just the interior guards posted by Yurovsky, would have been familiar enough with the family dogs to know them by name. Thus, it's at least possible Jemmy was bayoneted and ultimately  deposited in the minepit, with Ortipo's fate unknown, or at least the body never discovered.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: blessOTMA on January 22, 2013, 11:31:36 PM
Imo Anastasia would not leave Jemmy..no way ... Jemmy  was a much smaller dog  than Ortipo and AN  could get away with brining her  much easier  than TN could trying to bring Ortipo.  Jemmy was most likely trampled in the mayhem and was with the bodies etc.  They would not protest AN bringing little Jemmy imo, because they just wanted everyone  downstairs as quickly as possible.

We know Jemmy  wound up with the bodies, it makes sense she was always with them...Ortipo was killed in the rooms it appears , Joy was found in the possession of an ex guard I believe ...or he may have been "out" when the murders occurred...and hooked up with who ever had him later...another story I heard was Joy  was on his own until the Whites found him...I always found it  sadly ironic  that at least  of  Impative's prisoners made it to England
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on January 23, 2013, 08:25:03 AM
FOTR page 312:
As they [Kudrin & Goloshchokin] passed the secondary staircase, the two men saw Ortino, Tatiana's bulldog, whimpering at the top. The dog rushed down the staircase in search of his mistress. A nearby soldier grabbed a bayonet, impaled the quivering body, then heaved it into the rear of the Fiat. 'A dog's death to dogs!' Goloshchekin commented.

There's more information about the dogs (too long to quote in full) on pages 363-4 of the hardcover edition. In short:
Sokolov found a female canine corpse at the Four Brother mine shaft on 25 June 1919, which Gibbes identified as Jemmy. Forensic pathologists determined the dog had not been dead more than a week. It's possible one of the guards had adopted Jemmy and then (this next supposition is mine, not K&W's:) killed her for fear of being discovered by the White investigators.

Joy was found at the home of guard Michael Letemin in the summer of 1918, and taken by a member of the British military mission to a farm in Berkshire.

Ortipo's body was never found. She may have been burned at the mine following the murders.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on January 23, 2013, 08:29:19 AM
Also, there is a photo of Jemmy's corpse on page 558 of Gibel' Tsarskoi Sem'i (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=119) by Nikolai Ross.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Jen_94 on January 23, 2013, 12:46:28 PM
Thanks for the information! Such a shame about Ortino. I knew Jemmy had been found in 1919, but have always wondered how she died.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: xwhiterussia on January 30, 2013, 06:11:28 PM
From what I have read: Anastasia carried it downstairs because his legs were too short to walk up and down the stairs. The murderers did not want to take the lap dog away from her,for it would set alarm bells going in the family's head.I do not know exactly how he died,though I agree that he may have been trampled.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: xwhiterussia on February 06, 2013, 06:27:37 PM
However, since I do not know much knowledge about it, here is a link to a similar (and older) forum:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11298.15
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Neeosine on February 28, 2013, 05:11:25 PM
Her corpse:
(http://s017.radikal.ru/i443/1302/44/78b0b9fa14a8.jpg)
Here is the account:
Quote
The dog was found on June 25th,1919 in the bottom of the open shaft. Thanks to low temperature in the shaft, the corpse was well preserved. The right front paw is broken. A hole had been broken in the skull, and this, in the opinion of a doctor, was the cause of its death. Gibbs testified: "Anastasia Nicholayevna had a small dog of some Japanese breed. It was a very small dog with long fur. Its color was red-black.... It had distinguishing marks: it had large, round eyes; its teeth were exposed and always visible, its tongue hanging out its mouth. I don't remember on which side. Its nickname was "Jemmi". Such dogs are very small and often carried in the arms. It belonged to Anastasia Nicholayevna. They all loved this dog, particularly the Empress. I saw the dog today at the shaft. I affirm that this dog which I saw at the shaft, is Jemmi. I noted the fur and the shape of the eye sockets and the teeth. It is undoubtedly she.

Tutelburg, Tegleva, and Ersburg alo recognized her. In another book:
Quote
Jimmy the spaniel was killed when his head was crushed by a rifle butt.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Tsarfan on February 28, 2013, 06:03:48 PM
it had large, round eyes; its teeth were exposed and always visible, its tongue hanging out its mouth.

A lot like Alfred E. Neuman . . . .
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Neeosine on February 28, 2013, 08:05:45 PM
(http://s41.radikal.ru/i093/1303/81/35136d8a0e40.jpg) Nice one, Tsarfan!
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on February 28, 2013, 09:40:09 PM
Here is the account:
Quote
The dog was found on June 25th,1919 in the bottom of the open shaft. Thanks to low temperature in the shaft, the corpse was well preserved. The right front paw is broken. A hole had been broken in the skull, and this, in the opinion of a doctor, was the cause of its death. Gibbs testified: "Anastasia Nicholayevna had a small dog of some Japanese breed. It was a very small dog with long fur. Its color was red-black.... It had distinguishing marks: it had large, round eyes; its teeth were exposed and always visible, its tongue hanging out its mouth. I don't remember on which side. Its nickname was "Jemmi". Such dogs are very small and often carried in the arms. It belonged to Anastasia Nicholayevna. They all loved this dog, particularly the Empress. I saw the dog today at the shaft. I affirm that this dog which I saw at the shaft, is Jemmi. I noted the fur and the shape of the eye sockets and the teeth. It is undoubtedly she.

What source is this from -- Wilton?
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Neeosine on February 28, 2013, 09:49:20 PM
The Sokolov Investigation by John O'Connor and Nicholas Sokolov actually.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: TimM on March 01, 2013, 06:03:45 AM
Not even animals were safe from those Bolshevik butchers.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on March 01, 2013, 08:27:40 AM
The Sokolov Investigation by John O'Connor and Nicholas Sokolov actually.

Thanks. I need to get that book one of these days.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: rgt9w on March 01, 2013, 05:18:01 PM
Not even animals were safe from those Bolshevik butchers.

A little of topic, but Borzois were also killed during the Revolution simply because they were owned by aristocrats.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Tsarfan on March 01, 2013, 09:00:07 PM
Not even animals were safe from those Bolshevik butchers.

The Humane Society of the United States estimates that 3-4 million dogs are euthanized each year in this country because no one wants to care for them.

Dog meat is regularly consumed in quite a few countries from China to Switzerland (yes, Switzerland).

The Bolsheviks have a lot to answer for, but I'm not sure killing a couple of dogs would make the list.  And I say this as a life-long dog owner who currently obeys every whim of a dictatorial little Schnoodle with a moustache.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: rgt9w on March 02, 2013, 08:27:19 AM
With respect, it was a larger issue than a couple of dogs. I don't dispute that we euthanize many dogs in the U.S., but Borzois were specifically targeted for destruction during the revolution.  Hundreds of them were killed because of the social class they symbolized.  I would assume a number died or were euthanized because their owners had fled or been killed.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: edubs31 on March 02, 2013, 08:47:32 AM
Right and right. But I think the question then was why Jemmy was killed. Was he just one of the many dogs euthanized for unfortunate yet practical reasons...or was he never even given a chance specifically because of who he belonged to?
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: TimM on March 02, 2013, 11:37:56 AM
Quote
or was he never even given a chance specifically because of who he belonged to?

I'll lay you credits to beans the poor dog was killed because he belonged to Anastasia.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Tsarfan on March 02, 2013, 11:56:41 AM
. . . or was he never even given a chance specifically because of who he belonged to?

The Romanov's dog Joy was taken in and cared for by a guard, so I don't think there was any particular animus against the dogs because of their ownership.  I think the best guess is that the dogs lived or died based on which ones did or did not get in the way during the run-up to and the wrap-up from a massacre.

To people who were murdering eleven people that night -- including children -- and trying to keep it under wraps, it seems a little unrealistic to expect them to have paid much attention to dogs, one way or the other.

I think rgt9w brings up an interesting point.  The Bolshevik takeover and ensuing civil war unleashed vast forces of pent up resentment, anti-semitism, xenophobia.  And the relatively sudden release of those forces resulted in chaotic horrors of all sorts across Russia on both the White and the Red sides.  (It's worth reading Figes' A People's Tragedy to get a sense of just how universally violent and even sadistic the period became.)

I suspect the wholesale killing of Borzois based on association and the killing of the Romanov dogs tracked a distinction worth noting in the treatment of their masters.  Everything about the way the Romanovs' captivity and murders was managed reflected cold calculation for a specific political end.  Many members of the aristocracy were killed by mobs in the throes of an inchoate and unreasoning fury.

If anyone was motivated to kill the Romanovs' dogs to make a political statement, the dogs would have been killed while the Romanovs were alive.  You can't make a point to a dead person.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Rodney_G. on March 02, 2013, 01:58:21 PM
rgt9w's point about the calculated killing of borzois is not inconsistent with the destruction of Jemmy and (presumably) Ortipo, either because she was in the way or as  just part of the murderous frenzy of that night. Both of the latter seem to me to  be the case.

But, Tsarfan, the Bolsheviks' desire to kill Jemmy for political reasons would obviously have had to take a back seat to their greater need to have the Imperial Family remain unsuspecting as to their fate in the period (days, weeks?) prior to the eve of July 16. Just taking Jemmy away ,much less killing her , would have had the Romanovs in a terrible state of upset and alert which is not conducive to a smooth execution.

As for making a point as we're imagining, though I don't think it was a conscious Bolshevik goal, least of all for the IF , it could have had an effect on Whites and IF sympathisers if Jemmy's gratuitous  murder had become public knowledge.
 But I think the actual murders of the IH eleven would have been provocative enough in that regard.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Tsarfan on March 02, 2013, 02:27:45 PM
. . . either because she was in the way or as just part of the murderous frenzy of that night. Both of the latter seem to me to be the case.

I agree with this, Rodney.

I just don't see whatever malice the guards might have held toward the Romanovs carrying over to the dogs.  Remember that the guards who knew the family were not used as assassins that night.  People of more detached viewpoints were brought in for the job.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Georgiy on March 02, 2013, 03:35:05 PM
An interesting question would be was Jemmy killed at the same time as the IF. We can presume Ortipo was. I remember reading years ago in File on the Tsar that Jemmy was too well preserved to have been killed at the same time as the Romanovs. Would this be true or not though, and if true, what was the real reason behind killing Jemmy at a later date?
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on March 02, 2013, 05:25:08 PM
An interesting question would be was Jemmy killed at the same time as the IF. We can presume Ortipo was. I remember reading years ago in File on the Tsar that Jemmy was too well preserved to have been killed at the same time as the Romanovs. Would this be true or not though, and if true, what was the real reason behind killing Jemmy at a later date?

Check my reply #9 -- I posted King & Wilson's theory plus some thoughts of my own.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Lady Macduff on March 02, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
Sarushka, your theory seems plausible, but consider this: If Jemmy was adopted and killed by a guard, why did he take the trouble to go back and bury her with the rest of the family? Why not just dig a hole and toss her in? Wouldn't bringing her to the mass grave be incredibly dangerous if he were found? And how might he have found it in the first place?
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on March 03, 2013, 08:48:51 AM
Sarushka, your theory seems plausible, but consider this: If Jemmy was adopted and killed by a guard, why did he take the trouble to go back and bury her with the rest of the family?

To make his part in the crime more anonymous? If I were in this position, I wouldn't want to dig a fresh hole that might somehow be connected back to me by the White investigators. Better to toss the dog in with some other evidence that was bound to be discovered anyway.


Quote
And how might he have found it in the first place?

Jemmy was found at the Four Brothers mine shaft where the bodies were initially dumped, not at the final grave in Pig's Meadow where the imperial family's remains were eventually discovered. The location of the initial dumping spot was no secret among the locals -- that's why Yurovsky had to move the corpses.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Tsarfan on March 03, 2013, 11:09:37 AM
Was there anyone among the White investigators who would have had such intimate knowledge of the imperial family that they would have recognized the corpse of a dog as one belonging to the Romanovs?
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Sarushka on March 03, 2013, 11:17:46 AM
Was there anyone among the White investigators who would have had such intimate knowledge of the imperial family that they would have recognized the corpse of a dog as one belonging to the Romanovs?

It was identified at the mine shaft by Gibbes.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Tsarfan on March 03, 2013, 11:56:02 AM
Thanks.  I had forgotten he was with the investigators.
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Neeosine on March 28, 2013, 10:15:56 PM
I found more in one of the books I was reading:

Quote
Finally, mangled but unburned, the little corpse of the spaniel Jimmy was found at the bottom of the pit. For some reason, the murderers had taken great care to destroy the bodies of the owners, but had ignored the still recognizable body of their pet.

I wonder why exactly they had done this....
Title: Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
Post by: Lady Macduff on August 10, 2013, 03:50:56 PM
I was just reading Yurovsky's account of the murders. I know he's hardly a reliable source, but he does in fact mention that Jemmy was in the room.

"Although I told [the victims] through Botkin that they did not have to take anything with them they collected various small things - pillows, bags and so on and, it seems to me, a small dog."