Alexander Palace Forum
Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Tsarevich Alexei Nicholaievich => Topic started by: olga on January 16, 2005, 07:44:18 AM
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A figure of somewhat important historical interest.
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A person of historical interest. A poor boy who suffered a lot in his short life.
And most important - a Passion-Bearer Saint of our Church!
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I see him as a sweet smart alixic boy, very handsome, hoping I can find someone just like him,...................... Poor kid to suffer of his illness, very sad. and pity of his short life.
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omg! i meen guy's these days are not like him! >:(
Thank goodness they aren't. Have you read *carefully* about this kid?
A great deal of rudeness, misbehavior, even cruelty was reported by a number of witnesses.
One of the funniest things I ever read about him, though, was when he was being a total ass at table and his parents were embarrassed but did nothing. His mother complained to Olga to do something with him, but as the witness reported, she could do nothing with him, nor really could anyone.
Maybe he improved somewhat as he grew older, but he does not strike me as the kind of boy I would want around me at *all.* He was, by most accounts, an insufferable little ____(fill in *that* blank).
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The Tsarevich is a Holy Royal Martyr and the member of his family that inspires me most. While he may have had his episodes of bad behavior when he was younger - and what little boy doesn't? - and I suspect more than his share of bad press because of his exalted position, he exhibited compassion for others even at a young age, said his prayers every day and followed through on them in imitation of the Savior, showed great patience, courage, love and even humility, and his charm and intelligence cannot be denied. His physical beauty mirrored that of his spirit. Bad press about his younger days cannot take the overall impression of a good boy away from me. I love and revere St. Alexei.
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Alexie?
A very small footnote in the great volumns of Russian history.
rskkiya
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The Tsarevich is a Holy Royal Martyr and the member of his family that inspires me most. While he may have had his episodes of bad behavior when he was younger - and what little boy doesn't? - and I suspect more than his share of bad press because of his exalted position, he exhibited compassion for others even at a young age, said his prayers every day and followed through on them in imitation of the Savior, showed great patience, courage, love and even humility, and his charm and intelligence cannot be denied. His physical beauty mirrored that of his spirit. Bad press about his younger days cannot take the overall impression of a good boy away from me. I love and revere St. Alexei.
He was known to greet people by delivering to them a bloody nose. He thought this was funny. These are not things normal little boys, no matter how rambunctious, do. I raised one myself, more than a handful, but cruelty just because you know you can get away with it, is plain SICK.
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I just finished reading the diary of Anastasia, and ya when Alexei was younger he was just a little tiny bit rude, but a very enthusiastic and well behaved child who had to suffer greatly because of his Hemophilea and got hurt ALOT as a child!
but whats realy gonna haunt me from this book is that near the end when Alexei was 13, and the family was in Tobolsk OTMA and Alexei maid a snow mountain and it was destroyed by the soldiers, so Alexei desided to sled down the stsaires of their house!
So he did and injured himself VERY seriously! he said he whanted to die, cause he coulden bare the pain! due to that accident Alexei wasent able to walk! maybe even if he survived he woulden't have the ability to walk!
it made me cry!
what is this "Diary of Anastasia" you refer to? Are you talking about the *fictional* and extremely inaccurate "Royal Diaries" series?
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Alexei, to me, is an almost too normal of a character. I'm really not all that fascinated in him, but I can restrain myself from demeaning others who may be. ;) From what I've read he was not a particularly rude or kind boy, naturally. Sure, he could be a brat, but when you take into account the way he was treated I'm actually surprised he wasn't alot worse. Still, he did say some wonderful things and I doubt that we could find many kids today that have that ability. It's too tragic that he was butchered, but perhaps it was better that way. After all, I doubt that we would be able to recall him fondly if he had lived. JMO.
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o and Dashkova i've also read the Royal diaries series of Anastasia, and compared to her real diary its actualy very true!
oKAAAY....well, good for you, then. Keep thinking those happy thoughts.
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Alexei, to me, is an almost too normal of a character. I'm really not all that fascinated in him, but I can restrain myself from demeaning others who may be. ;) From what I've read he was not a particularly rude or kind boy, naturally. Sure, he could be a brat, but when you take into account the way he was treated I'm actually surprised he wasn't alot worse. Still, he did say some wonderful things and I doubt that we could find many kids today that have that ability. It's too tragic that he was butchered, but perhaps it was better that way. After all, I doubt that we would be able to recall him fondly if he had lived. JMO.
Bringing up certain *facts* about Alexei's character is NOT in any way demeaning those engaged in Alexei worship. It is an attempt to temper the worship by pointing to reality.
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Alexei seems like he was a regular boy, minus the not-so-regular station in life and not-so-regular state of health. He was not the most outstanding member of the IF (other than the fact that he was the heir to the throne), but then again, none of them were extremely outstanding, just a regular family who happened by accident of birth to be rulers of Russia. :)
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hmmmmm...i can see that you've never read any of them Dashkova!
why don't you go and find both of those books and read em, and maybe you'll learn that they're pritty much the same thing! But her real Diary is just more detailed!
Well, how wonderful for you! What other literary gems will you share with us! You must have been really busy reading all these "diaries" filled with indisputable facts, but you've certainly neglected your English language studies!
There are a great many people here who have read a great deal more than you have, so you ought to be careful who you accuse of being uninformed. Corners are not comfortable places.
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Alexei seems like he was a regular boy, minus the not-so-regular station in life and not-so-regular state of health. He was not the most outstanding member of the IF (other than the fact that he was the heir to the throne), but then again, none of them were extremely outstanding, just a regular family who happened by accident of birth to be rulers of Russia. :)
I can certainly find sympathy for Alexei...well, sort of. But I cannot get over how happily the rest of you just say, oh well, boys will be boys and he's just so normal and "regular"...have none of you read the many examples of witnesses who reported his "regular" behavior to be something a little beyond dreadful? You like those bloody noses? Is that a nice little boy? Are you suggesting he should be excused for such behavior?
True, true, true, his parents are the ones to blame, no question. But all these posts waxing poetic about what a sweet little angel he was and how they don't make boys like that anymore...jeez louise...lala fluff ball clouds once again!
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Well, for all it's worth, for each "bloody nose" story there is another that makes him sound like an extremely kind and well behaved boy, practically an angel on earth. The way I see it, we should take an average of both views and what we get is a regular kid...
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ya ya ya Alexei may of bein a pain as a LITTLE kid, but when he became older he was a very kind young man! and even as a LITTLE kid he has pritty good manners!
And Dashkova, you said i should consentrate or watever on my English! um ya i came to Canada from Russia only 2 years ago! and i think i'm pritty good at speaking and writing in English for someone who's only been in an English speaking environment for only 2 years!
The bloody nose bit was not a one-time thing. He *got off* on being mean because he knew he could get away with it. That's not normal, regular, and frankly, it's trashy.
Read less romanov, practice more English.
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o and can smeone explain the bloody nose story? i didn't realy read that one yet!
(and all u ppl like Darth Olga and Dashkova please stop saying: "stop asking such easy questions or wat ever) i am younger than probably all of you, and joined this site to learn about the Romanov! All of you have probably been reading up on them for years but i just started a couple of weeks ago!
Alexei was known to have greeted people who bowed to him by punching them in the face, therefore giving them a bloody nose.
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ok then i can see u need to read up on the Romanovs too! I read most of my information on them in Russian, so its kindof hard translating it all to English! and i am still a little kid and just turned 13 a couple of weeks ago, so i think i'm doing pritty good with my education! ;)
Oh my...we have a tiny little troll here. How DROLL.
AND...look, it's backpedaling! Why might that be?
Little troll, please understand that there are quite a few people who post on this board who were studying the romanovs DECADES before you were born. And guess what? In English AND Russian! Wow!
I could put you in a corner quite easily, but you are not worth my time. I do not think you will have such good fortune with some others here, so I hope you have a thick skin.
Now, what about that publishing info on the "diary"? No need to translate, let's see it! You surely can transliterate, right?
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ok Dashkova were you trying to speak French there? "DROLL" ya it meens funny but hmmm thats NOT how you spell it! its Drole!
Little troll, in the English language it is spelled "droll" and it doesn't precisely mean what you seem to think it does, at least in modern English usage. Sorry to disappoint, but you're quite wrong about this. You will find the correct English spelling and definition in your English dictionary, ok?
You're so ridiculous you're funny. You have very limited experience with a language I've spoken fluently (and written in professionally) for more than four decades and yet you're going to tell me I've spelled something wrong. What a piece of work you are!
You now need to find someone else to play with, so spokone noche.
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Sasha, you seem to have a lot of sense for someone your age. Molodyets!
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God u seem so Dumb!
AlexeiLVR, can you be anything except exceedingly rude?
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Alexei is a kind of friend to me because I have read a lot about him and I have seen videos and fotos since he was just born. I have seen him in the pictures sad, happy, in pain.... and videos of him running,playing with his dog and even being notil.
I have read parts of his diaries and letters so sometimes its like if you knew him.
I think he was a normal boy who suffered a lot and its true he had a bad behavior sometimes but if you see some kids misbehavior today you can try to imagine what that kids would do if they were kind of God for some people like Alexei was. I have read Pierre Gilliard memoirs and it says one day Alexei´s car was surrounded by people who juist because they touched Alexei were happy.
I just think its a mistake consider The Romanov like saints, I think thet just were normal people who made good and bad things like everybody do in life.
So Alexei was not perfect but I think he had a lot of good things too.
I have a page about him where I give my vision of him:
http://www.geocities.com/alexeitsarevich
PS Please excuseme about my English I am from Spain.
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Don't worry Frankie, your English is very good. If you need help, talk to Antonio Callaber; he is Spanish.
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WOW Dashkova your old! your WAY older then any of my parents! :o
Why thank you for such useful, *important* information! I feel so LUCKY!
Sorry all of your parents neglect you so badly! It really shows!
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I am 15 years old.
Alex,
I have to tell you that for a 15-year-old you are amazingly well spoken and intellectual (especially compared to some others your age or even much older than you)! Keep up the good work ;)
Helen
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Alexei is a kind of friend to me because I have read a lot about him and I have seen videos and fotos since he was just born. I have seen him in the pictures sad, happy, in pain.... and videos of him running,playing with his dog and even being notil.
I have read parts of his diaries and letters so sometimes its like if you knew him.
I think he was a normal boy who suffered a lot and its true he had a bad behavior sometimes but if you see some kids misbehavior today you can try to imagine what that kids would do if they were kind of God for some people like Alexei was. I have read Pierre Gilliard memoirs and it says one day Alexei´s car was surrounded by people who juist because they touched Alexei were happy.
I just think its a mistake consider The Romanov like saints, I think thet just were normal people who made good and bad things like everybody do in life.
So Alexei was not perfect but I think he had a lot of good things too.
I have a page about him where I give my vision of him:
http://www.geocities.com/alexeitsarevich
PS Please excuseme about my English I am from Spain.
Can't saints be just normal people too? (By the way, your English is very good! :)
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Can't saints be just normal people too?
1. How many saints do you know personally? ;)
2. Define "normal" :D.
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I don't know how many saints I know personally on earth...I should imagine quite a few, judging by the many very good people I have met (& even heard from on this site!) but since I can't read people's souls.... :) (In heaven I 'know' a few...but that's just my belief. ;))
By 'normal' I was refering to what Frankie wrote about the Romanovs being just normal. I believe that when (or 'if' in my case!) we get to heaven we will discover so many people we have just seen having everyday lives, who have become saints & we didn't recognize them. ;)
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He was known to greet people by delivering to them a bloody nose. He thought this was funny. These are not things normal little boys, no matter how rambunctious, do. I raised one myself, more than a handful, but cruelty just because you know you can get away with it, is plain SICK.
One anecdote by a woman named Catherine Frolova quoted in the controversial volume 'The Fate of the Romanovs' does not warrant calling a boy 'sick'. It seems Mr. King and Ms. Wilson were not so quick to quote the more complimentary excerpts of Eugenie de Grece's book! I won't even go into Princess Catherine Radziwill and the axe she ground. One also might bear in mind Robert Massie's observation that after the Spala episode that brought Alexei Nikolaevich so near death, the Tsarevich became much more thoughtful and considerate of other people.
I would be more inclined to trust those who knew Alexei very well for anecdotal material about him. More than one of those who came into contact with the boy on a regular basis has described him as patient and well behaved -- particularly as he grew older. Try reading from the memoirs of Klaudia Bitner, Fr. George Shavelsky and Eugene Kobylinsky and then tell me what kind of a boy the Tsarevich turned out to be in the end. I'm going to believe the best about Alexei, and every account of his good behavior.
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One anecdote by a woman named Catherine Frolova quoted in the controversial volume 'The Fate of the Romanovs' does not warrant calling a boy 'sick'. It seems Mr. King and Ms. Wilson were not so quick to quote the more complimentary excerpts of Eugenie de Grece's book! I won't even go into Princess Catherine Radziwill and the axe she ground. One also might bear in mind Robert Massie's observation that after the Spala episode that brought Alexei Nikolaevich so near death, the Tsarevich became much more thoughtful and considerate of other people.
I would be more inclined to trust those who knew Alexei very well for anecdotal material about him. More than one of those who came into contact with the boy on a regular basis has described him as patient and well behaved -- particularly as he grew older. Try reading from the memoirs of Klaudia Bitner, Fr. George Shavelsky and Eugene Kobylinsky and then tell me what kind of a boy the Tsarevich turned out to be in the end. I'm going to believe the best about Alexei, and every account of his good behavior.
Oh please, give it a rest...for every "axe to grind" tale teller there are sychophants (some of the people you listed) who would say whatever they think would keep them in good graces. Nobody knows for certain what sort of boy Alexei was in the end, and the bloody nose incident was not the only one recorded, not to mention his poor behavior with regard to school work and at the dining table (also repeatedly witnessed and recorded).
Alexei certainly had a rough go of it and really crappy parenting -- none of this was his fault. But those two factors made for the development of a rude and even callous at times personality. This is well-documented and so those who paint him as a sweet, angel, perfect child enjoy a fantasy life. On a personal level, fine, whatever floats your boat, but it is not historically responsible.
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I'm going to believe the best about Alexei, and every account of his good behavior.
I am going to believe a little bit of both because this is what normally is closest to the truth. Hence I will believe that he was just a regular, albeit unavoidably somewhat spoiled, boy who had potential to be kind and potential to be cruel (just like any "normal" child).
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I am going to believe a little bit of both because this is what normally is closest to the truth. Hence I will believe that he was just a regular, albeit unavoidably somewhat spoiled, boy who had potential to be kind and potential to be cruel (just like any "normal" child).
What makes Alexei different, and not "normal" is that he was allowed to explore his potential for cruelty and suffered few to no consequences. How should normal be defined?
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ok Dashkova were you trying to speak French there? "DROLL" ya it meens funny but hmmm thats NOT how you spell it! its Drole!
Please AlexieLVR!
Your comments are not only incorrect, but now these remarks are getting vulgar and rather rude. Think about how you would like to be perceived here at AP and think about the way that your words represent the "Tsaravich" whom you claim to respect...
I should be very saddened if you get a reputation as a person people here avoid rather than enjoy chating with....Do you understand?
I would rather not have to play "nanny".
Rskkiya
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I am going to believe a little bit of both because this is what normally is closest to the truth. Hence I will believe that he was just a regular, albeit unavoidably somewhat spoiled, boy who had potential to be kind and potential to be cruel (just like any "normal" child).
I think all little boys go through a "Cruel" phase-- I don't have children but my friends with offspring assure me its rather normal.
Personally, I have no interest in the Tsarevich(sp :-X) Alexie.
rskkiya
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WOW Dashkova your old! your WAY older then any of my parents! :o
AlexeiLVR! that is so rude, Please say sorry to Dashkova, I have seen Pics of Dashkova, she don't look old to me.......
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Normal standards of behavior in here seem to be deviating. Personal sniping and attacks are to cease, please.
The word is spelled "droll".
Alexei was most likely from all accounts some of both, good and bratty. Like most children of his age.
He was generous beyond a fault to those who did something nice for him, devoted to people around him. He would also disobey them in terrible ways, and the servants would be forced to threaten him with calling the Tsar in to make him listen. He did sometimes order soldiers to do things like wade into the sea fully dressed, just because he thought it was funny. However, the Tsar strongly reprimanded Alexei anytime he heard of him being cruel like that. Nicholas was the one person who Alexei listened to completely. He could also be shy around strangers.
He was, pretty much, a normal child given the extraordinary circumstances around him of his birthright and illness.
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I think all little boys go through a "Cruel" phase-- I don't have children but my friends with offspring assure me its rather normal.
And little girls too. ;)
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Thank you, FA, for blowing the whistle on today's questionable playground behavior. From what I've noticed, while typing up my own response, we need at least three time-out benches.
I see Alexei as a typical child growing up under extraordinary circumstances.
Kids (and, it appears, adults) will get away with what they can if there's no one around to reprimand or discipline them.
Also, children know that in certain situations they can "push the envelope" and they won't be disciplined . . . that parents and/or supervisors will find it uncomfortable to make an issue out of it. Or that an attempt at discipline might even exacerbate the issue, the theory being that ignoring the behavior might be best--but, as we know, this isn't usually the case.
Alexei was being watched and judged on an almost continual basis. He was the Tsarevich, he was the youngest, he was the only boy, and his health was poor. Any one of these factors would have caused a certain amount of special handling from other family members; the four of them together insured it.
Yes, there are numerous reports of his bad behavior. There are just as many reports of his good behavior. He was a work in progress, like any child, with the additional problems I've just mentioned. His parents, who already had dealt with four stair-step daughters exhibiting four very different personalities, now had a rambunctious yet exceedingly vulnerable little boy cub to deal with. Nicholas could not always be with Alexei and the boy's earliest years were largely under the direction of his mother, who wanted him to be disciplined and a well-mannered "Baby Tsar" (as she called him) but also indulged him due to his frequent hemophilia episodes. I cannot think that any other mother--or any other parent, for that matter--would have responded differently under those circumstances.
I don't doubt that the negative reports of his behavior are true. And if you've seen the current exhibit--first in New Mexico, then New Jersey, and next in Ohio--you will note that in the brief film on display a sequence featuring Alexei marching in unison with a number of other boys shows the young Tsarevich suddenly slapping the face of the boy next to him. What the motivation for that action was we cannot know, but there it is on film, preserved all these years later.
As Alexei matured his behavior matured, and his time spent with his father at Stavka seems to have been especially good for him. But of course he was still a child, full of energy, and one of my favorite film clips from this time shows him beaning unsuspecting adults with snowballs, then laughing with guilty embarrassment when someone points out that his actions are being recorded on film!
I've worked with children displaying all sorts of behavior due to all sorts of motivations. A certain number of these antics can be written off as part and parcel of being a kid. Then there's the issue of hemophilia, and how difficult it is for any child with a handicap to come to terms with being his or her difference. And then there's the matter of rank vs. equality. Some of you may recall that Alexei's Great Uncle Edward VII had difficulties in this area when he was a child.
Although Alexei's father once remarked--probably only half in jest!--that his son might one day be called "Alexei the Terrible," indications are that he was evolving into a compassionate and thoughtful individual. (And not nearly as disruptive as, say, the adolescent Felix Yussovpov.) Some of the children I grew up with who behaved in a bratty manner eventually left that behavior behind; others did not. I think Alexei, had he survived to adulthood, would have developed into someone with considerable empathy for others; what he did have going for him were two parents who loved each other, loved him, and wanted him to grow up to be a Tsar who was not only well-mannered but--within their own late Victorian standards--moral and upright.
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Thank you, Janet, for your very insiteful comments.
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Thank you, Janet. You have just written a response that I consider fair to Alexei Nikolaevich.
If I've offended anyone here in the process of sticking up for the Tsarevich-Martyr, I ask forgiveness.
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If I've offended anyone here in the process of sticking up for the Tsarevich-Martyr, I ask forgiveness.
Don't be silly, of course you didn't offend.
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As a sage once said, "It's the people who don't feel guilty who are probably the most guilty"!
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Aleksey was child who lacked structure in early years. The fact that he punched people in the face is of course an offshoot (spelling apologies) of that. When there are little to no limits, the restults are such. His parents of course didn't want to restrict him as much, because they may have felt that his illness did enough of that for him already. However, a little firmness never harmed anyone. Punishments such as time-outs and getting priveleges taken away, and of course some lectures on propper conduct would have been suffecient to teach the boy some good manners, at least in his early years. Also his mother needed to stop thinking that her son was the gift to the world and could do no wrong. I have worked with children, and parents with that attitude are the most harmfull to the upbringing of well-behaved children.
I'm aware that Aleksey in his later years outgrew his willfull behavior, and perhaps seeing his father's conduct is to be credited here. However, we will never know what he would have turned out to be in terms of a leader or a person, since he died at the age of thirteen.
Well, that is my opinion. I hope I made some sense here.
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Just in case AlexeiLVR is still looking. When the Tsesarevich was alive, it was normal practice to Anglicise (put into English) Russian names: hence Tsar Nicholas (not Nikolai), Empress Catherine (not Yekaterina) etc. At that time, Alexei in English was Alexis, whether these days that is a female name or not is beside the point, as in the time we are talking about it was not. When he himself signed his name in English it was as Alexis, not Alexei. (Maybe someone can post an example of this.)
Whether one wants to write Alexei or Aleksey or any combination thereof is not really important, but one I can't stand is Alexie. No such name! A serious typo in the Romanov Prophesy, that's it.
Please, everyone try and show a little tolerance to this young girl. How much did any of you know about the Romanovs when you first became interested in them?
AlexeiLVR, please think through your comments, and re-read them before hitting the 'post' button and they will be clearer.
If you have the time there is a lot of good information on this discussion site, which will answer many of your questions - maybe read through a lot more of it and then I think you will be able to make posts that don't get under others' skins.
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Romanov Prophesy
:P
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Spasibo Alex, that is the very photo I was thinking of.
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I wonder? what Alexei is giving to Joy?
P.S hi's right hand looks to be swollen? *( Sorry,..before by mistake I put head, lol sorry)
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hi's right head looks to be swellon?
His right hand looks to be swollen?
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His right hand looks to be swollen?
Oups! sorry,..I'm not the best speller. :-[
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Oups! sorry,..I'm not the best speller. :-[
It's ok, we figured it out ;) :)
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I wonder? what Alexei is giving to Joy?
P.S hi's right head looks to be swellon?
Good question Mandie. I think it's something edible (again, spelling apologies....I can't spell for the life of me and I have no idea if there is any sort of spell-check here... :-[ ). It's probably something equivalent of today's doggie-treat.
I don't see any swelling of the hand, but that may be due to my bad eye sight. Sorry.
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I think it's just the blurry quality of the picture that makes his hand appear swollen. :P
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Bringing up certain *facts* about Alexei's character is NOT in any way demeaning those engaged in Alexei worship. It is an attempt to temper the worship by pointing to reality.
Why is it necessary to temper the worship? I'm just wondering . . .
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Why is it necessary to temper the worship?
That's a good point, JM. Everyone should be able to worship anyone or anything they wish at any time in any way. It really shouldn't matter to anyone else at all. :)
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Why is it necessary to temper the worship? I'm just wondering . . .
In this case, because what is being worshipped never existed (a perfect Alexei). Of course any...ahem...individual...should worship whatever or whomever they wish, but I can point out why I think it is ridiculous.
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...because what is being worshipped never existed (a perfect Alexei).
Many things are constantly worshipped that never existed, why should this be any different? It should make absolutely no difference to anyone, other the worshippers. :)
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In the Orthodox Church we venerate the saints, of which the Martyred Tsarevich is one. Recognizing the boy as a saint that we venerate does not imply an opinion that he was perfect on earth. Only God Himself is.
Alexei Nikolaevich was subject to the same things that tempt a child as the rest of us, and some of the things that tempt an invalid, and some that tempt a prince, and sinned at times, like the rest of us. Whatever his faults were, any misbehavior was magnified in the public eye because of his status: to this day we expect young princes to be charming all the time and are taken aback by anything less. But he actively practiced his Orthodox faith, and came out in the wash as faithful to God in the face of great suffering and the tribulations he and his family faced. If he's an angel with a dirty face, then so be it. He's still got the wings because God gave them to him.
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Eeek! Please, lets not go there. ;)
Sorry, it's just a touchy topic.
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Many things are constantly worshipped that never existed, why should this be any different? It should make absolutely no difference to anyone, other the worshippers. :)
It doesn't! But I and anyone else who cares to are free to criticize their absurd behavior
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Ok, this junk stops NOW. first, AlexeiLVR posts from Vancouver BC, and uses a hotmail account. Second, you adults know better, if "if" AlexeiLVR is a child.
No more warnings. I have no patience for this, as you long time users well know. If I wake up tomorrow morning and more of this is here, the thread is locked.
AlexeiLVR, you need to learn to behave. Last and only warning. Helen and Dashkova, you are adults. Need I ask you to behave accordingly?
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Yes, sir! I'll behave. :)
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Many things are constantly worshipped that never existed, why should this be any different? It should make absolutely no difference to anyone, other the worshippers. :)
Helen A
This is an interesting point!
What exactly is the meaning here of "worship"? Bowing, praying and burning incense before an image? Respecting and honoring a beloved companion? Protecting and defending an Idea?
The tsarevich Alexie is none of these things to me, but he may be these things to some people...
Civility is the truest key to respect
rskkiya
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One anecdote by a woman named Catherine Frolova quoted in the controversial volume 'The Fate of the Romanovs' does not warrant calling a boy 'sick'. It seems Mr. King and Ms. Wilson were not so quick to quote the more complimentary excerpts of Eugenie de Grece's book!
Mr. King and Ms. Wilson DID explain in their Introduction that their intention was to present new or previously -neglected or -unpublished information on the Imperial Family.
What would be the purpose of yet another "safe" book full of the same old "nice" stories?
We wanted our book to fill in some blanks; to correct some misconceptions; to add a wealth of detail; and to provide a more rounded portrait of the family when put together with all the other information already out there on this family. That's all.
And I did discuss this Alexei issue with you elsewhere on this board, Pravoslavnaya, but I haven't been able to locate it to reference it here...
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In the Orthodox Church we venerate the saints, of which the Martyred Tsarevich is one. Recognizing the boy as a saint that we venerate does not imply an opinion that he was perfect on earth.
I don't think any religion claims that their saints were perfect on earth. In fact, I can remember being told by the priest who taught a religion class in my Catholic grammar school that some saints must have been among the most difficult, cantankerous and obnoxious people to have to live with. He said, "They simply aren't EASY people." I can certainly see where this is true of the Romanovs -- witness this conversation and several others... ;D
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If saints were perfect then they would have nothing to overcome to bring them to G-D...(assuming we accept 'saints" and "g-d" as constructs)
Hence "real saints" are, as Penny suggested not the perfect people of haliographic myth but sinners maybe even proud, cruel or selfish people who struggled for change.
I still don't see anyone in the Imperial Family as saintly but then again I am [glb]EVIL[/glb] ;) ;)
lol
rskkiya
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Bob said something interesting the other day, that may be insightful here. He said, that at least in his opinion, the IF are not Saints as much for how they LIVED, but rather, moreso how they DIED.
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Quite the opposite Alex. In the Orthodox tradition, they are called "passion bearers". Those who suffer terrible deaths without losing their faith in G-d. I will try to get Bob to pop in and explain more, as I am not Orthodox.
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Passion Bearers: A minor form of sainthood that recognizes the Christian humility and patience with which they endured their captivity [and death].
[This is NOT martyrdom [in which one dies because of one's faith].
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I agree with Mr. Hall.
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Bob said something interesting the other day, that may be insightful here. He said, that at least in his opinion, the IF are not Saints as much for how they LIVED, but rather, moreso how they DIED.
Churches which recognize saints have three reasons for doing so:
1) The saint is seen as someone who can intercede in heaven for people on earth.
2) The saint in his or her earthly life demonstrated SOME quality that is worthy of imitation. This does not mean that they had to do everything well (or no one would be a saint).
3) The MAIN reason is that they struggled to do God's will in their lives. (Whether or not they succeeded is immaterial.)
A saint is not someone who is especially good or kind...it is someone who allows God to work in them.
Therefore, those people who follow these faiths can recognize in the IF (or more particularly in this thread, in the Tsarevich) these 3 qualities & to such people the Tsarevich is a saint (if only because he was resigned to the Will of God & continued to trust in Him despite the terrors and upheavals that surrounded him.
Those people who do not adhere to such faiths don't need to recognize him (or anyone else) as a saint but cannot in all justice say to those who do believe, that the Tsaervich is not a saint any more than they can say that someone else's beliefs are foolish.
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Bluetoria, thank you! Well stated.
I am not Russian Orthodox, but I respect that faith, as I do others, and would not denigrate the right and validity of a practitioner of Russian Orthodoxy to regard the Imperial Family in a manner different than, say, a historian's approach.
We are here to learn. That can include challenging or questioning another poster, but those wishing to "flame" someone for their religious beliefs (or, for that matter, a lack thereof) might consider going elsewhere.
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According to religous teaching, ANYONE who reaches heaven is technically "a SAINT", whether or not they are canonised, regardless of whether or not their particular brand even preforms such a rite.
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According to religous teaching, ANYONE who reaches heaven is technically "a SAINT", whether or not they are canonised, regardless of whether or not their particular brand even preforms such a rite.
That's true and, in fact. the early Christians referred to all the members of the Church as saints (as in all St. Paul's letters) but because the Churches recognize that it is of benefit to believers to have models to follow, some people are specifically recognized as worthy of imitation. These are the Saints (with a capital 'S'!) It doesn't mean that other people aren't saints...which is why in answer to Helen-Azar's question, '"How many saints do you know personally", I replied that I didn't know :)
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BACK ON TOPIC Please!
OK!
For some people here - he's a saint, for others he's a spoiled brat, and for some he's a little boy with hemophilia...
To me-- he is a footnote.
rskkiya
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To me-- he is a footnote.
rskkiya
Rskkiya whats a footnote?? and thanks to going back on topic, because other people have different views on saints, God, etc,.......
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Well, this is what I mean. I consider this unfair.
But it's off-topic.
(I wasn't flaming, by the way).
Hi, Alex :) I respect your opinions. Please could you say in what way you consider it unfair?
It isn't really off topic because we are talking about what Alexei means to some people.
There may be many people worthy of imitation, but throughout history there have also been others who have set themselves up as 'good' people or mystics or whatever. The Churches therefore study lives in detail and for believers it is useful to have models to follow. If I wished to be a footballer, I would study David Beckham's football skill (I'm English!) If I wished to be an artist I would study the great artists...why should not believers study exemplary lives...or deaths?
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Rskkiya whats a footnote?? ,.......
A historical footnote.
PS: TO ALL PARTICIPANTS...Please do bear in mind that there are a lot of non christians here, so we might want to be careful about points that can easily be read as attempts to "proseletyze" one faith.
thanks
rskkiya
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I put my posting before yours had come up so if it's off topic I won't write anymore :)
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A historical footnote.
Ohh, ok.
PS: TO ALL PARTICIPANTS...Please do bear in mind that there are a lot of non christians here, so we might want to be careful about points that can easily be read as attempts to "proseletyze" one faith.
thanks
rskkiya
Did I write something wrong? :-/ If I did sorry.
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Ohh, ok.
Did I write something wrong? :-/ If I did sorry.
Yes, I'm sorry too if it was miscontrued.
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ok,. :-/
Anyway,............." back on topic again "
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It might be a good idea for EVERYONE (no finger pointing) to remember that while people do have the human right to their own religious perspectives-- they might need to be equally tolerant of those who don't accept these views - and nonbelievers ought to bear this in mind also, please.
lol
rskkiya
Ok back to topic...SMILE :D
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bluetoria
I was under the impression that you were catholic..Is Alexie Romanov now a saint in the Roman Catholic Church?
rskkiya
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bluetoria
I was under the impression that you were catholic..Is Alexie Romanov now a saint in the Roman Catholic Church?
rskkiya
As far as I'm aware he isn't even a Saint . . .
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In the Orthodox tradition, they are called "passion bearers". Those who suffer terrible deaths without losing their faith in G-d. I will try to get Bob to pop in and explain more, as I am not Orthodox.
Going back to what Rob said. He is absolutely correct that this category of sainthood is peculiar to Russian Orthodoxy and does not have an equivalent in the Catholic Church. I'll repeat this until I'm blue in the face, but there is a long tradition of "mucheniki," many of them royal children, in Russian Orthodoxy, beginning with the princes Boris and Gleb (who was a child) and continuing through Dmitry of Uglich (another child, the tsarevich murdered by Boris Godunov). So the canonization of the murdered imperial family, ESPECIALLY including the children, should not come as any surprise.
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Somehow this doesn't sound very convincing :-
Although I doubt that my opinion counts for very much, I can second bluetoria's remark. I know that the Roman Catholic Church is very particular about canonization, at least nowadays. There's a whole process and different stages and it takes years. The process of sainthood has actually built up quite the bureaucracy.
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I'm a Roman Catholic,.. but I have other beliefs also. I NEVER heard That A Russian Tsarevitch is a saint. sorry to say but no......not in the Roman Catholic Church...
But I did heard of St. Anastasia of Rome...
this might should stupid but I also believe in the Greek/ Romans gods!!!
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Bluetoria, thank you! Well stated.
I am not Russian Orthodox, but I respect that faith, as I do others, and would not denigrate the right and validity of a practitioner of Russian Orthodoxy to regard the Imperial Family in a manner different than, say, a historian's approach.
We are here to learn. That can include challenging or questioning another poster, but those wishing to "flame" someone for their religious beliefs (or, for that matter, a lack thereof) might consider going elsewhere.
Please don't make blanket statements for ALL Orthodox Christians. There are many Russian Orthodox who consider the "imperial" family's passion bearer status inappropriate. Some say it's BS.
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bluetoria
I was under the impression that you were catholic..Is Alexie Romanov now a saint in the Roman Catholic Church?
rskkiya
I am a Roman Catholic & no the Tsarevich is not recognized as a Saint in Catholicism, but our faith does not prevent us from accepting saints of other denminations.
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AlexeiLVR, I care what you think. Don't ever be afraid to share your views. I certainly hope that you will be allowed that in the future without downright nasty adults blowing your head off (figuratively of course ;)).
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AlexeiLVR, I care what you think. Don't ever be afraid to share your views. I certainly hope that you will be allowed that in the future without downright nasty adults blowing your head off (figuratively of course ;)).
I agree :)
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It sounds like we all have many different definitions of a "saint" really means, and this is where all the confusion is coming from! Sounds like the term "saint" means different things to different people....
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I like to add more if it ok? :-/
Well to me Saints are angels.
I don't want to make this go off topic again, but if nobody minds, can I ask - respectfully - what you mean, Mandie? I don't really understand.
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I'm a Roman Catholic,.. but I have other beliefs also. I NEVER heard That A Russian Tsarevitch is a saint. sorry to say but no......not in the Roman Catholic Church...
But I did heard of St. Anastasia of Rome...
this might should stupid but I also believe in the Greek/ Romans gods!!!
I was added something to this! I know I didn't "quote" earlier because i was busy..............I was saying I wanted to add something " To me ( in my fath of being a RC) I think Saints are angels,..I well remove the other one.
- Marina Feodorevna a.k.a Mandie
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In the Orthodox Church Alexei and the IF are Saints - in the Greek Orthodox Church, the Japanese Orthodox Church etc etc. Of course in the Roman Catholic Church they aren't - since the Roman Church's separation from the Orthodox Church in 1054 any new Saints in the RC Church are not in the Orthodox list of Saints.
Mandie - Anastasia of Rome was GD Anastasia's patron Saint (who she was named after - I don't know about the RC Church, but in the Orthodox Church we are all named after Saints who are our patrons and we ask for their prayers on our behalf. We also celebrate our Name Day (the day of the Saint we are named for) which is actually a more important day for us than our birthday.)
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I was added something to this! I know I didn't "quote" earlier because i was busy..............I was saying I wanted to add something " To me ( in my fath of being a RC) I think Saints are angels,..I well remove the other one.
- Marina Feodorevna a.k.a Mandie
Mandie, I'm not criticising your beliefs at all, but it isn't true that in the R.C. faith saints are angels. Some angels are styled saints (Sts. Michael, Raphael, Gabriel) but the angels 'were always with God' whereas saints were humans who lived ordingary lives on earth. :)
The reason we won't canonize the IF is because the Pope only canonizes Catholics (Shame, really, but what can you do?)
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The reason we won't canonize the IF is because the Pope only canonizes Catholics (Shame, really, but what can you do?)
don't they also have to provide some sort of proof to the Vatican that these guys were saints, i.e. proof of some miracle performed by them when alive and proof of uncorrupted remains, or something like that? I may be getting this all wrong, but if I remember correctly something like this is involved for RC canonization?
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It's avery long process. They don't have to have performed miracles when alive, or have uncorrupt remains, but after their death a miracle is usually sought as 'proof' of their sanctity. A 'devil's advocate' is appointed to find out all the nitty-gritty details of their lives & find reasons why they should NOT be declared saints. Some excellent people have been refused on these grounds. A person is first declared Venerable, then the process starts again & they MAY become BLESSED & only eventually (after years sometimes...and vast amounts of money) they may be declared a saint. In many ways IMO (& I am a practising Catholic) it is all very corrupt. Some people are declared saints because their organizations or religious orders can afford to pay loads of money to sustain the process...Others are refused on political grounds (e.g. Oscar Romero of El Salvador) but that's the way it is.
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So it all comes down to politics - even with the sainthood!
In any case, if these are the criteria for RCC then there is no chance the IF will ever become RC saints.
Well, you can't win 'em all, I always say... :D ;) .
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Mandie, I'm not criticising your beliefs at all, but it isn't true that in the R.C. faith saints are angels. Some angels are styled saints (Sts. Michael, Raphael, Gabriel) but the angels 'were always with God' whereas saints were humans who lived ordingary lives on earth. :)
The reason we won't canonize the IF is because the Pope only canonizes Catholics (Shame, really, but what can you do?)
Ok,....I didn't say " you criticisng my beliefs": No not at all,..I was just add something. ;) :) I hope I was not being rude? :-[ sorry.
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Ok,....I didn't say " you criticisng my beliefs": No not at all,..I was just add something. ;) :) I hope I was not being rude? :-[ sorry.
Oh, Mandie :), no I certainly wasn't thinking you were being rude...I did not want you to think that I was! ;)
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? ? ? ?
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K well today i took out 5 books about the Romanovs! And one of them is calles Nicolas and Alexandra The famile albums! is that the book people are talking about, or is it a diffrent one?
That book is awesome!!!! You'll love the pictures. Enjoy, AlexeiLVR. :)
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Yeah, thats my second favorite book!!! (first is Love Power and Tragedy)
enjoy it!!
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Hello Vera,
I have "Nicholas And Alexandra: The Family Albums" by Prince Micheal of Greece, and I love it. It has some rare pictures of the Family. Enjoy it! The other book that has Nicholas and Alexandra in the title is "Nicholas And Alexandra" by Robert K. Massie. That book has a lot of information and is a great book if you want to read if you want to get information and not just pictures.
I hope you enjoy your the books ;D
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Yeah, thats my second favorite book!!! (first is Love Power and Tragedy)
enjoy it!!
Yes, Abby. "Love Power And Tragedy" is yet another great book. It is my favourite in terms of picture books, but my favourite non-photo book is "A Lifelong Passion".
OK, I'm done now. Sorry for my incessant ramblings.
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OOO tough question.... ok let me think.....
*My role model
*My name saint
*like the little brother i never had
*my hero
*someone i knew or saw once in a past life :)
* The best little boy ever (they need to make more like HIM)
*the sweetest most adoreable child
* My idol
*the person i would give anything to have met
* the person who I have pictures of everywhere...
* someone who i would have had a crush on if i lived back then
*faveorite human (after maybe my best friend)
hmmm...for now thats it
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ok I exagerated a little there witn faveorite human, but watever... :-/
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ok RussiaSunbeam1918, it scares me how much you resemble me in the Alexei subject! lol to me he is:
~my role modle
~practicely my fave person
~someone I REALY REALY want to meet, and hope to atleast see his ghost!
~someone I have over 600 pictures of!
~someone I spend practicaly all my time reading, writing, making collages of and etc.
~someone I knew in my past life! ;D
~the most ADORABLE and CUTEST boy EVER and lol pretty hott :-[ ;D
~someone I would DEFENETELY have a crush on if I lived in his time and knew him!
theres probebly more, but I can't think of any more for now! ;D
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WOW Baby Tsareavitch! you're like my TWIN!!! :)
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Oh ya in addition to my last post which i hope you read: I have over 600 pics 2 I think...but my dad won't let me print them all >:( :( >:( :( :-[
i make collages too! I'm on my way to buy a big poster board now! ::)
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I FINALLY found someone who is just as much obsessed with Alexei as me! YAY! lol
Well maybe if I go to Ekaterinesburg, I might for some weird reason see his ghost! he he he, lol! ;)
I would print all my 600 pics but my printer wont work! *criez* :'( ;)
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I luv all ur alexei pics...how'd u do that?
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Thanx!!!!!
I just go on "paint" and cut "baby's" face out of the pics and make a small collage out of them!
If you want me to make u one, I can try! ;D
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REALLY??? ;D That would be soooo awesome!!! If it's not like, a lot of work, id love it if you'd try!
Dana
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ok i love making those so its no problem!
I'll send u a messedge! ;D
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Yea, totaLLY! Feel free to email me anytime. I mailed you yesterday i think. ;)
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i didn't get ne mail from u, but k well see on top of the site where its sais: Alexander Palace Time Machine, well beside it it sais "Hey RussiaSunbeam1918, you have (?) messages"
well just click on the number of messages u have, and there u'll find my message! ;D
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lol Dana!
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::) yea, but you have to admit, this was a very cool idea for a post...it's a good way to not only find out things about Alexei, you can know what others think, and you can make friends..........
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ya thats true! I made lots of new friends on here! ;D ;D
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Me too.
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I mean, Ive only been here for like a week or two, and i have had a great time. I especially like all this Romanov participation...there are kids in my class who didnt know who they were until a year ago.
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:)Alexi was a normal boy who suffered alot ,so I would apprieciate some respect towards him ,and let him rest in peace.
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Were ne not being respecyful???
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Sorry, my key board spazzed...my actual message was were we not being respectful?
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The bloody nose bit was not a one-time thing. He *got off* on being mean because he knew he could get away with it. That's not normal, regular, and frankly, it's trashy.
Read less romanov, practice more English.
Ummm, I can see how if an adult hits someone because they can it's trashy, but a little kid? I do not think he was doing it because he COULD, but more just because he was wild.
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He did stuff like that since he could. He knew he'd get away with it since his parents didn't have the heart to discipline him.
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You are probably right, but do you think (because Nicholas and Alix wouldn't punish him) he even knew how bad it was? I am asking out of pure curiousity. I love learning more about Alexei. I have seen your name here a lot, so you are probably the best person to ask questions! :)
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I think he did. I think as a child he just did stuff since he knew he could get away with it; same as Anastasia. they both did nasty things to people...since their parents wouldn't discipline them.
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lol, i guess it didn't help that they were both naturally wild! :-)
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Being 'naturally wild' is not an excuse. The fact is, both Anastasia Nikolaevna and Alexei Nikolaevich were nasty, mean little children. This wasn't helped by their total lack of boundaries and discipline.
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No, I did not mean it was an excuse, because it definately wasn't an excuse to punch people or anything like that. I just meant that it did not help matters at all. ???
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D_O
Dont think I was trying to be rude, or stereotype alexei as an angel, because im not.............he could be a bratty kid without trying too hard.
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ya he was bratty when he was younger, but atleast he learned and changed his ways :-/
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And I guess it depends on how much you think he changed. I think he learned that he was being rude, but in some cases the little deamon would come back, and sadly, those are the times people remember.
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Lol! today is my cousin Sammy's 15th b-day. I showed her a pic of Alexei and she says hes Hot! lol!! :P ::)
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I hope folk won't judge me by the way I behaved...or didn't behave...as a child.....
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I hope folk won't judge me by the way I behaved...or didn't behave...as a child.....
You are right there--- unless the negative immature behaviors persist into adulthood or evolve into something even worse, that's is what growing up is supposed to be... An open laboratory of sorts, where one should feel secure enough to experiment and make a few mistakes, and with enough guidance to show one the better way.... The rest being up to choice.
How do I think of the unfortunate young boy? Pity, of course for his ailments, whatever they really were, and his terrible and untimely demise. I read that he was mischievous, but until now had not heard of a campaign of willful, mean misbehavior. The point of most accounts seemed to be that Alexei wasn't any different from other children save in his artificial social position and his bleeding syndrome.
Big news, I, too, raised a son, basically a bright child, and he went through plenty of stubborn times and had deeper issues, until lately, in young adulthood, he seems to finally be shaping up to be a good character. From most accounts, it seems Alexei was finally developing some empathy and dignity, and might have squeaked through and become a good man.
And it is true, the fact that he wasn't corrected as perhaps he should have been was his parents fault. But there are explanations for their leniency with him and perhaps even Anastasia, the babies of the family. Babies of large families often get spoiled, yet most of them turn out OK also. These were brats, not, IMO, future pychopaths or even sociopaths.
Alexei DID have SOME serious health issues--- whether hemophilia or anemia, it was chronic, capricious, hereditary, and apparently incurable. These influenced his mental state in ways one can't completely understand unless one, too, suffers them, and suffers them as a helpless and as-yet-unknowing child--- or its parents. Worse, he was born the only son to a monarch in a country whose right to inherit the throne was dictated by his gender. There were several very bright older sisters there, but the sickly little boy was the heir.
Now, who had the right to physically chastise the prince, if that was possible? ONLY his parents in that case. And what, aside from the fact that one couldn't smack or even rebuke the child too harshly because of his condition, would have stopped Nicholas and Alexandra from being too strict? Their backgrounds, one supposes.
Alexandra, of course, had been left motherless at a very early age (and also lost a small sister at the same time), and I don't think spent a lot of time with her father. So she was brought up by her governesses, her older sisters, and an indulgent grandmother who was the queen of another country (and who had, in her time, not been an very enthusiastic mother to her own large brood.) Not entirely helpful role models from whom to learn motherhood skills, though the basic material WAS there--- as royal mothers go, Alexandra was one of the better ones. To make matters worse, the disease of her son appeared to have descended from her side of the family. Even if Alexandra had been just an ordinary, middle-class mother, she would have had issues disciplining that particular child.
And Nicholas? Seems to have been a decent enough guy, too bad he was in his position. How was HE raised? By a father who, most accounts agree, was in every way an overwhelming presence, towering over his entire family, tough and stern. I don't recall reading that he beat up on HIS children either, but it seems safe to suggest he didn't NEED to. His mother, Maria, was a more emollient influence, but she strikes he as having been domineering in her own subtle way. In any case, she allowed some of her husband's rules to prevail, such as hard beds for the kids, a relatively vigorous lifestyle, etc. One really can't blame Nicholas for trying to be a more empathetic and sympathetic presence in his own children's lives (in spite of also being a busy full-time monarch) even if it meant letting them get away with some shenanigans.
However, he and Alexandra DID emulate their relatively isolated upbringings in some ways, sequestering all their children from outside schooling and too many friends outside the family circle, and maintaining some trappings of strictness and relative simplicity in their surroundings. ALL their children, for all their gifts and abilites, seemed immature and naive compared to their contemporaries, judging by even the most favorable accounts.
So it doesn't surprise me too much to hear that, after all, they went off in their own ways.... Olga with her emotional problems, Anastasia with her pranks, Maria with her weight problems, Tatiana with whatever problems she had, Alexei undisciplined because, aside from his father, there really wasn't anyone else who COULD--- Even if tutors like Gilliard had some authority to restrain him, it had to be verbally, and it still had to emanate from the royal parents, who not only had this family crisis to deal with, but a huge empire's worth of crises, too.
Still, that doesn't mean there wasn't some hope of their growing up well, and the closeness of the family seems to have been positive in many ways. I think a lot of the family's admirers admire just that fact, that here was a royal mom who breastfed her babies and nursed them through their ailments, a royal dad who took them fishing and also sat up with them when they were sick, and who could talk to them. A royal married couple who apparently didn't indulge in infidelities or everyday cruelties that spring up between spouses, and slept in the same bed.
When I think of Alexei, he reminds me of another indulged, sickly royal heir, who died close to the same age.... Edward VI, only legitimate son of the much-married Henry VIII. As a motherless child, it was recognized that he had to be disciplined SOMEHOW, yet his indulgent and sick father wasn't about to chastise him, and nobody else dared rebuke him. So he was given a "whipping boy" who had to endure his physical punishment. This seems to have worked out, because litle Edward soon was so distressed at seeing Barnaby (who was also a playmate) smacked in his behalf, that he began to behave much better. It's interesting to speculate on what sort of monarch Edward would have grown to become, much the same as Alexei.
And one final point: Alexei was a footnote to history, but, inadvertantly and unwittingly, a very important one. No question he had a malady that drove his parents, especially his mother, to deep despair. No question that this desperation drove Alexandra to accept the presence, ministrations, and finally, political advice of one Rasputin (and then, members of his circle), who simply would not have been a factor if the mother had not believed he could help her son. And no question that her devoted husband, while not accepting everything Alexandra channeled to him from good/bad old Father Gregory, was influenced to a considerable extent by his wife in some of his (often poor) decisions.
Not an inconsequential record for a footnote....
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Alexei is someone who suffered in both his life and death although he was born to a incredible position, as the son of the Tsar, the heir. His birth had been prayed for, hoped for, and it meant alot when he was born. But then he had hemphiliia, and it caused great agony for his parents and the country through Rasputin, just safe guarding his health so nothing happened to him. He was someone who should have had it all but was not even able to play like a normal boy. His life and upbringing, privilged or not centered around his illness and caused great pain. He died brutally at a young age although his life would not have likely been long anyway. So, Alexei to me is someone who suffered, an innocent little boy doomed from birth, but one who had some sunshine.
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Aleksey is my hero. :)
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I think he did. I think as a child he just did stuff since he knew he could get away with it; same as Anastasia. they both did nasty things to people...since their parents wouldn't discipline them.
Um, no offense, but it's a little rude to say such things about the deceased. Not to mention, they WERE kids. Anastasia was mischievious not demonic, and neither was Aleksey. If you read Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert K. Massie, you will see that in the early years of his childhood (aka the innocent years) Aleksey was also quite mischievious. Later, when he was old enough to know what it was like to suffer innumerable pain, Aleksey was very kind to all people, particularly the ones who suffered because he could relate to them. And if you are confused by Nicholas calling Aleksey "Aleksey the Terrible" that was also when he was younger and it was meant as a joke.
I just hope that you understand this. Because I feel so horrible when people say things like this about dead children. Since--technically--Anastasia was a child still (17) and Aleksey was 13 nearly 14.
Sorry, I am not mad at anyone either! I hope I didn't get on anyone's bad side. :o
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For me, Alexei was a nice boy, who suffered a lot in his life...and of course a martyr , for he died in a very violent way before he had the time to grown up and full developpe his personnality. A child who suffers (a working class' son or a nobleman's one, that's not the matter) always deserves my love, and admiration.
Alexei is not "my hero", but I think he was "a hero" despite himself. The way he lived and died made him so. I hope he is now resting in the Lord Peace.
RealAnastasia. :'(
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Aleksey is a role model, I believe, along with his family who were brutally murdered along with him, because they had courage in the face of total eeeeeevillllllll. :'(
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Wow, haven't been on this topic for ages, like 5 years. Now that I'm an Adult.
My new point of view of Alexei:
A tragic historical figure and in live a fun loving boy when was a prisoner due to his illness
and in my religion (I converted to Russian Orthodoxy three years ago) a martyr
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Re: Old reply #143 (Oct. 18th, 2005) and off-topic, since this thread has been rejuvenated: Whatever happened to "Skander's Queen," a certain "Sofia?" She was prolific in posting, even to saying (if I recall correctly) that her grandmother had given her an egg by "Faberge," and that she was "distantly related" to Spanish royalty, etc., etc. She disappeared rather suddenly, after alluding to some apparently serious problems, and has never resurfaced again. Even though her somewhat hero-worshiping website is still up, I think it's a safe bet that she did not move to England to pursue her fantasy "idol," this "Skander" person. AP
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off topic- or she lost interst in the Romanovs, happens to a lot of people.
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I have mixed feelings about Alexei.
I think he was very spoiled - mainly for the reasons Alicky sets out. He lived at a time when physical punishment was the rule rather than the exception, especially for boys but also far girls, but I can't imagine that anybody laid so much as a finger on him. I also can't imagine anyone - least of all his parents - giving him anything approaching a proper telling off.
However, he did lead a very restricted life. One of the saddest pictures I've seen is Alexei aged about seven on a seat over the front wheel of a bicycle ridden by Derevenko. That sums it up.
Ann
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Obviously his life/existence was one of daily and endless frustration, which, IMO, he unfortunately all too soon realized. I have no particular attachment to him other than his being a historical figure. Remove the trappings of his birth-right and you will find multitudes of other Alexei N.'s out there, both then and now. AP
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Had he been a normal boy he'd have got into a few fights with other boys and learned from that what he could and could not get away with.
Ann
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Excuse me, I find the adjective 'normal' very not suitable in this case. What are even parameters for being normal? The boy was ill, believe me me, if he had had any choice, he would have chosen healthiness and more peace to sadness. I really don't know how long he would have lived further, but I wonder sometimes 'Did it have to be like that?'.
Not to be topic -off now; Alexei is simply one human enigma, person and brave boy who admired happiness and love and life. Despite his illness, he adored to help the others and knew some qualities of life...and existence. And sometimes he found the death as his the only save.
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I am using 'normal' in the sense of healthy, and not unduly cosseted. Because Alexei was haemophiliac, he not only spent far more time with his parents and other adults than was usual at that time for upper-class boys, but what little time he spent with other boys must have been very closely supervised. This, in my view, would exacerbate his less pleasant tendencies as he would not get the rough edges knocked off him, or learn the hard way that there were some things that would earn him a bloody nose.
Ann
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Sorry Ann, as someone that has a medical condition such as myself I think using terms as "NORMAL" is degrading to people who have physical problems etc. From my experience I see myself as "NORMAL" but with a physical condition that doesn't stop me doing "NORMAL" things. So it makes me mad when people such as yourself see people with problems as posting as In a sarcastic tone "Well you know he did have a condition, and he was a brave little boy despite it and I bet that a would be a lot stronger if he was physically normal in personality wise."
I have put up with people like your view a lot and in the years I have basically ignored it, being from a small community I already have an image that defines me in their view of what I am like because of my weak muscle condtion. I have had people patronize me and condesend me in public ie a post office worker who actually asked if they could write on the envelope for me. After I gave her a look she looked embarassed and said "People have asked me to write on the envelope for them". Yes I do have hands and I can write well enough that it is legiable. I also hate when people go up to my grandmother (whom I was raised by) and they go "Oh she is doing so well for herself." Or they ask how I am going only that they saw me the day before and didn't even bother asking me but go running to my grandmother asking.
Same can be said about my grandmother, who likes to bring it up about how she would never have thought that I would get my licence (I have a full licence) or I couldn't do other things such as working my way to my last two years of University and working part time. It really hurts when she goes on about it and then laughs at my uncordination on Wii which actually I am pretty good on. Or the fact she point out blank said I should have my tubes tied. Which was horrific and made me feel like I should be ashamed of my condition. Hence why I am so outspoken on forums such as this, because in the real world if they know me they treat me as either a) Healthy person or b) a person who is defined by their physical illnesses.
My boyfriend's mother recently spoke to me and said "I know you have a physical condtion, people do talk." I just rolled my eyes at her and said "So it doesn't stop me being who I am."
Yes I see you mean as a sense of health, but a plain way to have put it out there is On due to Alexei's condtion of Hemophillia blah blah blah blah.
This people is why in to answer this topic about Alexei. To me I can see where he was coming from, when he couldn't go out and play like the others. The fraustration of having constant people watching his every move and how he spent a lot of time with his parents and sisters.
You don't physically need to be bopped on the nose or rough up physically to have your personality shaped. I believe he was an observer and thinker and being babied because of his condtion made him reliease that not only did he have a problem that most children he knew didn't have, but he was also very important for the world he lived in. He wanted to be healthy and play like the other boys. (I used to hate having physical thearpy to loosen my muscles and wondered why none of my peers had to go through it.) I saw a photograph of him riding his special built tricycle while his friends rode bicycles. It would have made him feel like just another thing drawing attention to his condtion. Of course he was most likely out having fun.
That is why he is what he is to me. Another kindred spirit whom had to endure similar circumstances with other people.
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Rosieposie
Apologies for my careless use of 'normal'.
For the record, I am not being sarcastic about Alexei. I do not see him as a 'brave little boy' blah blah blah. (Incidentally, I detest the use of 'little' for anybody over the age of three).
I think that it was inevitable that his personality was to a considerable extent shaped by haemophilia and the cosseting and spoiling that resulted from it. Obviously physical conditions, or whatever we call them, will have different effects on different people. One of my maternal uncles was partially deaf from birth, another deaf to about the same degree as a result of being blown up in WW2 at the age of 15. Both got progressively much deafer as they got older. They were completely different people. The first had, to use that horrible modern phrase, 'come to terms' with his deafness, and had what might be called a sunny disposition, although he had the particular misfortune that his great passion and ability was for music (he was a very gifted pianist, even though he could not hear 40% of the notes on the piano). The other was a very ruthless and driven individual (could be charming, but definitely not a man to cross). To what extent the difference was innate and how much was due to one being deaf from birth and the other from a teenager is an open question, but I think Uncle No.2 (actually the elder) was going to be much the same anyway. Losing his hearing (and his original career as a Merchant Navy officer) exacerbated his existing traits. With his brother, we simply cannot know (incidentally, he wasn't treated in any 'different' fashion as a boy because of being deaf, because nobody realised he was all that deaf until he was turned down for military service because of it).
Back to Alexei. I have to admit that some of my view of Alexei is a backlash to the 'sweet little darling' view which largely prevailed until fairly recently. I think he was frustrated by his illness, and not being able to do things like riding a bike. I am quite clumsy and uncoordinated (got kicked out of a karate class as 'unteachable', I am an Army Cadet Force instructor but a disaster on the drill square), and get thoroughly frustrated over the time and effort it takes me to pick up any new skill. Maybe undiagnosed dyspraxic, I don't know. Being laughed at because of it doesn't help, nor does the fact that my brother is sufficiently well-coordinated to have been a budding gymnast in his younger days. I'm 50 now, but the humiliation is still there.
With Alexei, on the one hand you have the cosseting, the spoiling, the being babied, on the other the frustration. Plus when he died he was an adolescent.
Ann
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Ann, you story of your uncle being rejected by the military reminded me of my own great grandfather, he really wanted to go overseas to do his thing for the war. He got rejected because he had a lazy eye and one of the medical memebers said to him "If you went you wouldn't be able to see if your shooting the enemy or us."
So they put him on packing and shipping off creates of supplies.
Oh yes the spoiling, I can sympathise with Alexei on that one too, as mentioned I was raised by my grandparents and I too got spoiled by my Aunt who was 12 when I was born, my uncles etc. I was the one at Christmas who had the most presents (sometimes still do) but I was disiplinced accordingly if I did something wrong which I think Alexei wasn't.
I don't know if you have seen a picture there is around here of Maria looking like she is being scolded by the nanny (Maria and nanny's expression looks like this scenerio) while Alexei (I think he is 5/6) is standing there looking at a toy. Could be that Maria took the toy off Alexei and the nanny made her give it back to make Alexei happy.
Oh yes by the time he was a teen, he would have become fully aware of his condtion and not sure how to come handle it with the events going around.
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I don't know what my uncle thought about being turned down by the army in 1945, but apparently his father was mightily relieved that he was found unfit for any kind of service. By that time 10% of conscripts were being sent into coal mining; according to my mother, my grandfather wasn't worried about Uncle Gerald in the army, but he was having sleepless nights at the thought of Uncle Gerald down a coal mine!
I think the big problem with Alexei was that there was no counter to all the spoiling he got.
I don't think I've ever seen the picture you're referring to, but as an eldest I had plenty of experience of being told off for not being 'nice' to my brother (who was a perfect pest a lot of the time!)
Ann
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After my message on Alexandra Feodorovna, a message about Alexei Nikolaevich.
Many anecdotes in this thread, few sources. For my part, I will put the link of a book that seems little known:
Jules Legras, Memoirs of Russia
https://archive.org/stream/mmoiresderussi00legr#page/96/search/allumettes (https://archive.org/stream/mmoiresderussi00legr#page/96/search/allumettes)
Jules Legras is a French ethnologist, specialist of Russia. In 1916 he gave military lectures in Russian armies, and even became an officer in the Russian army.
He has met the emperor many times, and he is a very frank man. His memoirs are fascinating because he honestly says all that was wrong in Russia at that time. One feels he was rather sensitive to the revolution, but he says very nice things about the emperor.
Jules Legras meets Alexey at the stavka (pp. 97-98). He dines with the emperor and his son.
He says that:
He was "lively and cheerful like a chaffinch"
When smoking, Alexei plays with matches. Contrary to what Jules Legras thought, Alexei, at the end, put the matches in their box.
He says he was a very kind, polite and orderly boy.
Of course Alexey was mischievous, he made mistakes, he was not always nice. But all those who knew him at the stavka say good of him. I am also thinking of Hanbury-Williams.
Some information that I have read here reminds me of several French articles I read in revolutionary newspapers. Others remind me of Marie from Romania. Apart from Nicholas II, this woman hated the Russian imperial family, so that's not surprising.
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Some information that I have read here reminds me of several French articles I read in revolutionary newspapers. Others remind me of Marie from Romania. Apart from Nicholas II, this woman hated the Russian imperial family, so that's not surprising.
Marie of Rumania was the daughter of Prince Alfred of Saxe-Coburg, and Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna of Russia, so she was Nicholas II's first cousin, and Empress Alexandra's second cousin. She would have been double cousins with Alexis and probably knew him quite well. There were all sorts of political and family issues involved in their relationship and these should be kept in mind when analyzing family comments. But of course that applied to all the European Royal families.
I am related to them all, though more distantly, so that helps to see all sides of the picture. Alexis was my fourth cousin once removed, 5th cousin, 4C2R, 5C1R, 5C2R, 5C3R, etc.
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"She would have been double cousins with Alexis and probably knew him quite well"
Unfortunately, even in Russia, many Romanovs barely knew Nicholas II and Alexandra Feodorovna.
The so-called espionage of the Empress is a good proof. For example, I think of Countess Vorontsova-Dashkova's memories of the 1916 conspiracy against the Empress.
So I doubt that the Romanian royal family knew the imperial family very well. I could be wrong (I do not have the exact words in mind), but his words about Olga for example are not representative of the Grand Duchess.
In general, the Romanian authors' remarks are violent against the imperial family. I am also thinking of Princess Bibesco, who was present in 1914 during the visit of the imperial family to Romania.
The failure of the union between Olga and Prince Karol was, I think, perceived as an affront in Romania.
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But, I may have been a bit harsh with Queen Mary.
For my part, I read his "Pensées et images", a small book very rare, a collection of articles published in French just after the war (1922 crossing information)
Also, it is possible that she shows less severe with the imperial family thereafter.
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So I doubt that the Romanian royal family knew the imperial family very well. I could be wrong (I do not have the exact words in mind), but his words about Olga for example are not representative of the Grand Duchess.
In general, the Romanian authors' remarks are violent against the imperial family. I am also thinking of Princess Bibesco, who was present in 1914 during the visit of the imperial family to Romania.
The failure of the union between Olga and Prince Karol was, I think, perceived as an affront in Romania.
Marie was only part of the Romanian Royal Family by marriage, and she did not get on with her husband Crown Prince Ferdinand. In her youth her attitudes would have been shaped by her Russian Mother (only daughter of Tsar Alexander II) and her British father (son of Queen Victoria). However in later life Marie of Rumania was very much her own woman. It is unreasonable to equate traditional 'Romanian' attitudes with those of Marie of Romania.
This is rather off the topic of 'What and Who is Alexei to you?'
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It is not me who has drifted from the subject. I was talking about Alexei, you reacted on Marie of Romania.
But I do not believe that there is any Romanian tradition in the Romanian aristocracy. The Princess Bibesco that I quote was more Franco-Belgian than Romanian and has lived less in Romania than abroad.