Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Romanov_Fan19 on June 09, 2015, 12:55:44 PM

Title: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on June 09, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
I Was reading Fate of The Romanovs   And the  Authors indicate  that Moscow was the  of the Tsars Familys  Destination   is there any Validity here
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Forum Admin on June 09, 2015, 03:24:43 PM
Yes completely.  Lenin's ultimate plan was to have a huge public "show trial" of Nicholas in Moscow, to establish "legal validity" for the Bolshevik regime.
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Sanochka on June 10, 2015, 11:32:19 PM
A fascinating "what if?"  If such a trial had taken place, would Alexandra and the children have been executed? 
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Kalafrana on June 11, 2015, 03:20:22 AM
Alexandra yes, I think, given that she was even more hated than Nicholas. The others probably not, but lifelong incarceration, I fear.

Ann
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: TimM on June 11, 2015, 05:25:08 AM
I think it's safe to assume that the verdict would have been already decided before the trial even began.
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Forum Admin on June 11, 2015, 08:28:00 AM
 Most believe that Nicholas, Alexandra and Alexei would have been executed.  There are some documents that indicate Lenin had reached an agreement with Germany ending Russian involvement in the War which included his guarantee of "safety for the Princesses of German blood" meaning OTMA. 
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: edubs31 on June 11, 2015, 10:15:57 AM
This has obviously been discussed many times, but I'm left to wonder...

Had Lenin/Trotsky gotten their wish and brought Nicholas and his family to Moscow for that show trial. Don't you think people as politically savvy as they would realize that A) The Tsar's family could be used as a bargaining chip and this would have made the execution of at least Alexei and OTMA unwise. And B) by executing anyone besides the Tsar and Empress would force a severe backlash...not only by many of those inside of Russia, but the other world powers? Some of whom were related to the Imperial Family.

It's one thing that George V and Kaiser Wilhelm, given their tenuous hold on things in England and Germany respectively, might not have acted while the Tsar and his family were locked in a home in Urals facing an uncertain fate. But once a public trial was announced in a major city such as Moscow, and the possible fate of not only Nicholas & Alexandra but their children was at stake, don't you think certain negotiations would have taken place?

And given that, Lenin, who owed Germany huge for allowing him safe passage back to Russia in the first place would almost certainly have had to comply with demands to exile the children...maybe even spare the life of Empress. Lenin, Trotsky and company took certain measures to distance themselves from the Ekaterinburg murders. They even announced the death of just the Tsar and Alexei (?) first because they feared public backlash as a result of the news of the entire family's execution. Given what we know of their political sensitivity I'd think a show trial followed by a full scale execution of the entire family (on what would have to be ludicrous legal grounds) is something they would not have permitted.
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Sanochka on June 11, 2015, 08:24:41 PM
I agree, Edubs.  The issue of a trial and its possible outcomes would most certainly have been discussed, at length, among Lenin and his cronies.  The possibilities you raise, together with pressure from advancing Whites in the Urals and Lenin's struggle to consolidate power amid general chaos in the country, most likely led to the decision to forego a trial and execute the entire family and be done with it, once and for all. 
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Forum Admin on June 11, 2015, 10:50:45 PM
This has obviously been discussed many times, but I'm left to wonder...

Had Lenin/Trotsky gotten their wish and brought Nicholas and his family to Moscow for that show trial. Don't you think people as politically savvy as they would realize that A) The Tsar's family could be used as a bargaining chip and this would have made the execution of at least Alexei and OTMA unwise. And B) by executing anyone besides the Tsar and Empress would force a severe backlash...not only by many of those inside of Russia, but the other world powers? Some of whom were related to the Imperial Family.

It's one thing that George V and Kaiser Wilhelm, given their tenuous hold on things in England and Germany respectively, might not have acted while the Tsar and his family were locked in a home in Urals facing an uncertain fate. But once a public trial was announced in a major city such as Moscow, and the possible fate of not only Nicholas & Alexandra but their children was at stake, don't you think certain negotiations would have taken place?

And given that, Lenin, who owed Germany huge for allowing him safe passage back to Russia in the first place would almost certainly have had to comply with demands to exile the children...maybe even spare the life of Empress. Lenin, Trotsky and company took certain measures to distance themselves from the Ekaterinburg murders. They even announced the death of just the Tsar and Alexei (?) first because they feared public backlash as a result of the news of the entire family's execution. Given what we know of their political sensitivity I'd think a show trial followed by a full scale execution of the entire family (on what would have to be ludicrous legal grounds) is something they would not have permitted.

This is exactly the reason Lenin reached the documented agreement with Germany to "protect the Princesses of German Blood" in his agreement to end the war with Germany.  He did understand this point exactly
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: Maria Sisi on June 12, 2015, 09:50:50 AM
If there had been a public trial in Moscow the girls would probably have ended up like Marie Antoniette's daughter Marie-Therese and handed over to some relatives, probably Germany. Or if not they possibly could have ended up in the Crimea with their grandmother and end up in Denmark. Either way I don't think the girls wanting to stay with their parents would have been taken into consideration, they would have no choice.

I think Alexandra would have suffered the same fate as Nicholas because even though she was a "Princess of German blood" or Queen Victoria's granddaughter. she was too involved. And judging from the reactions of some relatives who blamed her for all the mess they wouldn't be as willing to take her as they would the girls. Alexei is more tricky since he was the heir. I'm guessing they would have used him as propaganda for a while and then he would "accidently" die.
Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: TimM on June 12, 2015, 04:13:27 PM
Quote
Alexei is more tricky since he was the heir. I'm guessing they would have used him as propaganda for a while and then he would "accidentally" die.

Just push him down a flight of stairs and let the hemophilia do the rest.

Title: Re: Was their Destination really Moscow
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on June 26, 2015, 05:41:00 PM
Unless someone finds some long lost documents saying otherwise Yakolev was supposed to take the IF to Moscow. Whether or not they would have had a trial for Nicholas is debatable. The IF may have been sent back to Siberia a few weeks later as what happened to Ella and some other Romanovs. As for OTMA when Yakolev showed up they burned their letters and diaries. I think they did this because they realized that there chances of getting out of Russia alive were pretty slim. I don't think Lenin would of let any of them get out alive no matter what the Germans or British or anyone else did.