Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Rasputin => Topic started by: nigbil on February 07, 2005, 10:32:27 AM

Title: Rasputin's Funeral and Burial
Post by: nigbil on February 07, 2005, 10:32:27 AM
[img/http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/nigbil/Alexpalace5.jpg/img]  

Could this be where Rasputin was secretly buried on the orders of the Empress on the night of Thursday Jan 4th 1917. Its about 200 metres from the Alexander Palace?                                                    
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 11:15:26 AM
Thanks, nigbil! Do you have any larger photos by any chance? :)
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: nigbil on February 07, 2005, 11:30:24 AM
No, but I can send some pics to you as email attachments which will be easier to see.........
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: ChristineM on February 07, 2005, 05:54:08 PM
The photograph I see is of the White Tower.   It was built during the reign of Nicholas I to the design of the Scottish architect Adam Menelaws.   It reflected Nicholas' interest in the medieval knights.

During the reign of the first Nicholas jousting contests took place in the area around the White Tower.   The exterior was repaired and repainted in the late 1990s.  

In the famous painting 'Tsarskoe Selski Carousel' by Horace Vernet, who executed it to mark the Silver Wedding Anniversary of Nicholas I to Alexandra Feodorovna, it is possible to see the family, dressed in the style of the medieval knights with their ladies, returning from a tournament at the White Tower to the Alexander Palace.   The White Tower can be seen in the background.

tsaria
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 09:36:02 PM
Quote
No, but I can send some pics to you as email attachments which will be easier to see.........


Ok, thanks! My email address is listed  :)
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: ferngully on April 06, 2005, 02:27:05 AM
was he buried there then? all that i know is that he was shot down
selina        xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Forum Admin on April 06, 2005, 10:38:24 AM
This was discussed elsewhere, but I can't find the thread just now.  Rasputin was buried, and it wasn't much of a secret really, under a new church Anna Vyroubova was building behind the Feodorovsky Cathedral.  It was never finished due to the Revolution. I've seen pictures from the time, it was really just a foundation and partial walls and some roof framing.

During the Revolution, Kerensky ordered the body dug up, and transported secretly to Petersburg.  A crowd discovered who the body was on the truck when it broke down, and the soldiers took the body and burned it completely scattering the ashes and remains in the forest.  We know only an approximate location where this happened.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on April 06, 2005, 10:51:30 PM
Purely as a matter of interest, as I have no knowledge of the book's veracity or otherwise, at some point in the 1930's a chap named Dorian Blair (Pseudonym??) published a book "Russian Hazard" in which, amongst other things, he claimed to have been responsible for burning Rasputin's body.

Blair claimed to be an Anglo-Russian (I believe) who served in the Imperial Flying Corps.  He claims to have known Rasputin who told him he'd dreamt that he'd seen Blair washing his hands over his (Rasputin's) corpse.  After R's murder Blair claims that Kerensky(?) sent him to dig up the body and bring it back to Petrograd.  His party was disturbed by angry peasants, took refuge in a barn and then Blair poured petrol over the corpse and set fire to it.  As he was wiping the petrol from his hands he remembered Rasputin's vision....

Blair claims to have later worked in the Red Army transport department as a White agent & saboteur & to have later escaped to England.  No idea if it's true but there are a couple of photos in the book which appear to back up parts of it.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Forum Admin on April 07, 2005, 11:32:54 AM
Phil
Just another post Revolution fairy tale, based on some reality. We have the records of the men who were involved. No one from any "flying corps" was involved, and no one with that name nor even an Anglo/Russian person is there.  It was nine men, six of them students from the Petrograd Polytechincal Institute.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: AGRBear on April 07, 2005, 11:45:03 AM
What were their names?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Forum Admin on April 07, 2005, 11:48:22 AM
Kolotsiev and Kuptchinski, from the Polytechnic: Bogatchev, Moklovich, Chabaline, plus three unidentified others. and my bad math, that is 8 not nine...
Sorry.
:o
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Anastasia_R on May 11, 2005, 04:43:52 PM
That church that Anya V. was building,is it still up?Probably,I'd like to go there sometime.......
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 11, 2005, 04:56:05 PM
Nothing remains on the spot where the church was being built. the precise spot is not even exactly known, just the general area
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Scott on June 14, 2005, 09:24:17 PM
Forum Administrator, or anyone else:  Do you have any of the photos of the foundation of Vyrobova's hospital that you can post?
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: LadyAthina on June 16, 2005, 05:37:13 PM
Sorry, don't know where else to ask this but who is this Blair guy? This isn't the first time I've heard his name popping up on different topics in this forum... I think I also read about it in some discussion about the assassinations of the royals. And there as well he was dismissed as a myth or fairy tale.

Were there ever any Anglo-Russian men involved in any of the verifiable stories?  ???
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 13, 2005, 09:37:48 AM
I don't think they have it right. As for the exact location, it may never be publicly revealed Scott. We have had word from Father Gennady and Father Markel that they have always known the exact spot, but do not want it made public for fear of it becoming a place of weird rituals and seances and all that stuff. Sadly, their concerns are legitimate in today's world.
Title: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 28, 2005, 11:10:28 AM
Are there any photo's from Rasputin's funeral?

And I heard that Olga did not attend, was this true? and if so why? ???

~Anastasia~
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on July 28, 2005, 02:22:37 PM
There are no photos of Rasputin's funeral. It was a very small funeral, attended only by the Imperial Family themselves, Rasputin's family, A.A. Vyroubova, and a few close friends. (according to Spiridovitch in his biography of Rasputin).
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 28, 2005, 03:08:48 PM
O ok thanx FA! :)

Did Olga attend?
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on July 28, 2005, 03:11:35 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Georgiy on July 28, 2005, 05:47:43 PM
When I get to posting it, you can read her thoughts on the funeral from her diary. I've already posted Maria's. (Grand Duchess Olga's diaries thread).
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Annie on July 28, 2005, 07:07:56 PM
Quote
When I get to posting it, you can read her thoughts on the funeral from her diary. I've already posted Maria's. (Grand Duchess Olga's diaries thread).


I don't have the book in front of me, but Nicholas wrote: "today we buried unforgettable Gregory, killed by monsters at the home of F. Yussoupov"
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 28, 2005, 11:02:36 PM
I can't wait to read the entry in Olga's diary!

Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 11:07:01 PM
It was exceptionally cold the day of Rasputin's funeral so he was not buried very, very deep into the earth.

It was all done rather furtively; there was just a scratch choir and much Church "ikonomia" was used in the service.  There was no "otpevaniya" as prescribed by Russian Orthodox Church canons, just a short "pogrebeniya" with a very, very simplified "litiya" which concluded with a "vechnaya pamyat" and because of the extreme severity of the weather, it was sung standing and not kneeling.

Technically, a "panihikda" should have been served for three days, twice daily, together with the reading of the entire "Psaltir" over the body and then the "otpevaniya" should have followed.  All of that was dispensed with given the already omnipresent Revolutionary fervor, and to some extent, Alexandra's state of very convulsed grief.

The mortuary "litiya" lasted for not more than 10-15 minutes, instead of the requisite hour.  The 50 Psalm was not read; the 90th Psalm was not ready.  The funeral dirge "With the Saints Give Rest" was sung but the very beautiful singing of the 118th Psalm was not sung at all, and in most cases, is sung in its entirety.

Rasputin was buried, however, with his face facing the East, as custom dictates.

Oh, one important thing I forgot to mention.  He was NOT given a monastic order of burial, even in an abbreviated form. And when mentioned, he was mentioned as is the custom as only "Rab Bozhia Grigoria Efrimovitcha".

Finally, one of the VERY first acts of the Revolution was to disinter his body and burn it and scatter it to the winds.

Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Georgiy on August 04, 2005, 11:49:50 PM
Oh, surely the removal of that is merely legendary! The one shown in a museum is apparantly not even human.
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on August 05, 2005, 09:23:08 AM
Kerensky ordered R. to be disinterred and brought to Petersbourg. He ordered it then to be taken elsewhere to be reburied. On the way, just outside of TS, a group of locals stopped the cart and discovered it was R's body, the soldiers and students then took the body into the forest, doused it with gasoline and burned it totally and did indeed scatter the ashes to the winds.
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Arleen on August 05, 2005, 03:19:34 PM
AlexP come back.....tell us more and more and more.  I can't get enough details in life and you seem to know so many.

I think Georgiy was talking about his penis, the one purported to be in the Museum in Moscow.  As opposed to the one the little old ladies of Paris have in a velvet box, that Maria Rasputin told us all about in her last book.  

At any rate this was all discussed in several other forums, but do you know anything you could add Alex??

..Arleen

Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: AlexP on August 07, 2005, 12:03:47 AM
Quote
There are no photos of Rasputin's funeral. It was a very small funeral, attended only by the Imperial Family themselves, Rasputin's family, A.A. Vyroubova, and a few close friends. (according to Spiridovitch in his biography of Rasputin).


Dear Rob,

One of those in attedance was Rapustine's "kelenitza" or "pashlutnitsa" who titled herself a Nun, even though she was wasn't.

And yes, there were photographs, I do not know why Spiridovitch passed this over in silence.  I was not aware that Spiridovitch had even attended this funeral.

There were a set of three cliches, I believe.  I have seen them.  And I will describe one to you :

The one I most vividly remember shows The Empress and the Grand Duchesses (without Alexei) standing to the right of the open plot in which Rasputin was to be buried.  The coffin had obviously already been lowered. The Empress was wearing mourning black, but I was surprised that her mourning veil was so relatively short.  The Grand Duchesses were also in mourning wear but winter-coat style.

Alexandra's veil had been lifted off of face, as it was religious ceremony, as pulled back over the hat, just a little.  She looked terrible -- she had the darkest circles under her eyes that I have ever seen in any picture of her.  The young Grand Duchesses looked less convulsed. To the right of Alexandra, stood the Emperor, looking haggard but not fatally-so, wearing a very simply full-length coat, Russian-military style. Vyrubova was NOT in the picture.

I remember that the snow in the picture was not particularly deep for that time of year, and surely was less .90 cm.

I think that when I was in Paris, a part of the emigration, we all saw this picture.  Everyone saw this picture, I think.  But then who knows, I could be confusing this with another funeral.
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on August 11, 2005, 08:51:08 AM
Alex - you mention pictures taken at Rasputin's funeral.  Do you have them or know where we might find them?  

best,
dca
Title: Re: Rasputins Funeral
Post by: Arleen on August 12, 2005, 07:39:37 PM
Alex, as I reread what you wrote, the hair on the back of my neck stood up.....you write as if you were there.

Please tell us more about the picture you saw in Paris....was it a snapshot from someones box camera.....Anna always carried hers....or was it something more professional like from the Palace photographer?

Also since you lived among the exiles in Paris....what do you know about the stories Marie Rasputin put in her book about Rasputin's penis being severed and some little old ladies of Paris keeping guard on it.

..Arleen





Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 15, 2005, 08:05:23 AM
Quote
 Rasputin was buried, and it wasn't much of a secret really, under a new church Anna Vyroubova was building behind the Feodorovsky Cathedral.


What about this map (that someone posted elsewhere), it shows Rasputin's burial spot in the northwest corner of the Alexander Park, near Vyrubova's hospital, which is nowhere near the Feodorovsky Cathedral...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/Alexander%20Park/MapofTsarskoeSelo-Fragment.jpg)[/quote]

It would make more sense that they would want to bury him near the cathedral, but I wonder why this old map shows the place somewhere else?
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Finelly on August 15, 2005, 02:58:37 PM
From Anna V's memoirs (suspect, I know....) on this very website:

As soon as the news became public all St. Petersburg burst into a wild orgy of rejoicing. The "beast" was slain, the "evil genius" had disappeared never to return. There was no limit to the wild hysteria of the hour. In the midst of these demonstrations came a telephone message from Protopopov asking the Empress's advice as to an immediate burial place for the murdered man. Ultimately the body would be sent to his Siberian village, but in the present circumstances the Minister of the Interior thought a postponement of this advisable. The Empress agreed, and she replied that a temporary interment might be arranged at Tsarskoe Selo. On December 29 (January 12) the coffin, accompanied by a kind-hearted sister of mercy, arrived at Tsarskoe. That same day the Emperor came home from the front, and in the presence of the Imperial Family and myself the briefest of services were held. On the dead man's breast had been laid an ikon from Novgorod, signed on the reverse by the Empress and her daughters as a last token of respect. The coffin was not even buried in consecrated ground, but in a corner of the palace park, and as it was being lowered a few prayers were said by Father Alexander, priest of the Imperial chapel. This is a true account of the burial of Rasputin, about which so many fantastic tales have been embroidered

Sounds like it was intended as just a temporary spot to buy some time to get his body to his home village.  And no doubt the Empress feared vandalism and desecration of the body, so an out-of-the-way place seemed a reasonable temporary solution?
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: AlexP on August 15, 2005, 06:44:08 PM
One must remember that in Russian on December 29 of any given year it is practically impossible to "bury".  The ground is solidly frozen so that a modern bulldozer, which they did not have, would have been required to dig up the grave.  The area near Vryubova's church had been recently worked on and thus was in a state-of-flux and afforded an ideal place for burial.  One should also consider the thought that Vryubova caused the entrance of Rapustin into the Palace and she caused his exit.

As to where Rasputin was buried, it should be said "buried only temporarily".  Kerenksy caused his body to be disinterred shortly after coming to power and Red Army day regulars, whom elsewhere have been identified as peasants, but which were not, seized the small convoy carrying the body, burned it and scattered its ashes to the wind.

As for Vyrubova's account of the funeral, she glosses over many of the details and hides the names of those perhaps 10 attendees who were present, for reasons but known to her.  Her memoires are more famous, in my opinion, for what they do not tell as for what they do tell.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Finelly on August 15, 2005, 07:09:44 PM
Ah, I knew I had the info somewhere.....

Anya and two Moscow merchants had bought a piece of land on the edge of the imperial park sometime before Rasputin's death.  They planned to build a chapel and "some almshouses" on it.  

This is where he was buried.  Not just to keep it away from vandals (there was a small shelter built over the land) but because it was privately owned.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Scott on August 15, 2005, 07:29:35 PM
Helen - The map you mentioned is mine and I placed the star on it based on all the information I have on the location of the the hospital foundation.  From everything I know, this was the location of the original burial, not the Sobor.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 16, 2005, 07:52:41 AM
Thanks everyone, I am going to see if I can check it out! I doubt I will find the exact spot, but at least see what's out there.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: AlexP on August 16, 2005, 08:05:02 AM
Quote
Thanks everyone, I am going to see if I can check it out! I doubt I will find the exact spot, but at least see what's out there.


Helen,

God's speed on your trip there and God's speed on your trip home.

With all the best,

A.A.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 22, 2005, 06:23:04 AM
The other day I had the chance to walk over to the area where the old map says Rasputin was buried. Basically, it is pretty far away from the palace, about a mile walk, all the way at the edge of the park in a pretty isolated spot. It is across the canal from the Llama Pavilion, which today stands in ruins. Based on the map, I found the approximate spot. I had to walk over a little bridge which only had a plank to walk over which was kind of scary  :o! The area is pretty abandoned looking, lots of weeds, etc, and has a few big boulders there. It is unclear where these boulders came from, as I didn't see any boulders like this anywhere else in the park. Next to the boulders, there is a large indentation in the ground, approximately 2-3 feet deep and maybe 30 feet in diameter, that looks like it may have been some sort of foundation for a small building (Vyrubova's hospital?) at some point. Or maybe the building was never built there, they may have just started to prepare the foundation. It is all overgrown with weeds, so it is difficult to tell.

BTW, does anyone know what is the story behind "Vyrubova's hospital?" Was it ever built? Also, the map actually says "Vyrabova's" not "Vyrubova's", is it a typo or is this another person?
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Belochka on August 22, 2005, 07:11:35 AM
Quote
Next to the boulders, there is a large indentation in the ground, approximately 2-3 feet deep and maybe 30 feet in diameter,


Greetings Helen!

Another possible explanation for that apparent indentation could be simply be explained by the fact that the region was a war zone. :o


Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 23, 2005, 02:05:52 AM
Quote

Another possible explanation for that apparent indentation could be simply be explained by the fact that the region was a war zone. :o


Oh yes, that could certainly be another explanation. There is just no way to tell what happened there. I wonder where those big boulders came from though. I will post the photos soon.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Forum Admin on August 23, 2005, 08:03:17 AM
Helen,
Vyrubova's hospital was started to be built but never finished. The foundations were laid and some rough framing started but that was as far as it got. Bob miraculously found, after years of searching, some oringinal photographs of it!. Before you ask, they are being saved for his forthcoming book. I don't belive "boulders" were used, from the photos it looked more like squared stone blocks, but then these are not highly detailed and there "may" have been boulders in the foundation as well.
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Arleen on August 23, 2005, 02:15:37 PM
I have never been more anxious for a book to come out than I am Bob's book!!

..Arleen
Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2005, 02:48:11 PM
Here are some of the photos I took of the area where the map indicated Rasputin's burial site (sorry for the quaility of the photos, they are not digital :():

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/lydunka/Alexander%20Park/MapofTsarskoeSelo-Fragment.jpg)

The Llama Pavilion:

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4163/thellamapavilion9fa.jpg)

View of the area from across the canal:

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/5302/viewofrsburialarea7dz.jpg)


To get to the other side of the canal, you have to walk across this very unsteady bridge: (http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1862/dangerousbridge3vc.jpg)



The approximate site:

(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8541/rasputinsburialsite22ic.jpg) (http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5636/rasputinsburialsite5pk.jpg)

Title: Re: Rasputin; where was he buried?
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2005, 02:49:01 PM
Quote
Helen,
Vyrubova's hospital was started to be built but never finished. The foundations were laid and some rough framing started but that was as far as it got. Bob miraculously found, after years of searching, some oringinal photographs of it!. Before you ask, they are being saved for his forthcoming book. I don't belive "boulders" were used, from the photos it looked more like squared stone blocks, but then these are not highly detailed and there "may" have been boulders in the foundation as well.


Thanks!
Title: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Nicole123 on October 07, 2007, 07:17:06 PM
I know for a fact that Alexandra, Olga, and Tatiana attended. Did Nicholas, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei attend the funeral as well?
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Belochka on October 07, 2007, 07:30:59 PM
There were 17 persons who were present at Rasputin's burial on December 21, 1916. The mourners included the Imperial Family, but Alexei was not among them.

Margarita
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Nicole123 on October 07, 2007, 07:36:35 PM
Was Alexei ill at the time of the funeral?

I also read somewhere Alexandra wouldn't allow Rasputin's own daughter to attend the funeral! Is this true? If so, that is pretty mean.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Belochka on October 07, 2007, 07:53:58 PM
Was Alexei ill at the time of the funeral?

I also read somewhere Alexandra wouldn't allow Rasputin's own daughter to attend the funeral! Is this true? If so, that is pretty mean.

Alexei was ill at the time.

You are correct Rasputin's two daughters did not attend the burial. However please do not suggest that Alexandra was mean about that decision. The daughters were permitted to farewell their father earlier.

Margarita
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Nicole123 on October 07, 2007, 08:08:44 PM

I meant to say, "Oh! I didn't know they said farewell to their father before then".
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 13, 2007, 08:50:27 PM
How old were his daughters when he died?
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Belochka on October 18, 2007, 11:14:49 PM
How old were his daughters when he died?

Matrena was 18 yrs. old

Varvara was 16 yrs old.

Margarita (ageless)
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 19, 2007, 09:02:59 PM
I would be upset if I was one of the daughters and Alexandra wouldn't let them attend the actual burial. It's not her choice!  >:(
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Belochka on November 06, 2007, 11:50:41 PM
I would be upset if I was one of the daughters and Alexandra wouldn't let the attend the actual burial. It's not her choice!  >:(

Actually it was Alexandra's choice!

Reading Matrena's notes, the impression I receive is that the daughters were not psychologically traumatized by that Imperial decision.

Margarita
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: BeautyQueen on November 08, 2007, 01:53:41 PM
How was it her choice? The FAMILY of the dead person can choose. Not some empress!
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on November 08, 2007, 02:08:25 PM
Ummm,

You clearly don't understand what it meant to be the Empress. One never questioned nor disobeyed the Empress.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Belochka on November 08, 2007, 06:41:02 PM
... The FAMILY of the dead person can choose. Not some empress!

Alexandra Fedorovna was not "some empress" as you have chosen to describe. Most unkind selection of words on your part.

She was an Empress of Imperial Russia.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: BeautyQueen on November 09, 2007, 09:19:07 AM
I am just saying, in my opinon, I think the family should have decided who attended the burial. I don't think Alexandra should have been in charge of who attends and who does not.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on November 09, 2007, 09:34:09 AM
Clearly, Alexandra Feodorovna, Empress of Russia begged to differ with you...
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: BeautyQueen on November 09, 2007, 03:19:21 PM
What does that mean?
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on November 09, 2007, 04:02:09 PM
It means that the Empress had the belief she should, and every right under Russian law to do so, when she decided that she should be in charge of Rasputin's funeral and determine who attended.  Whether you agree with it or not is really of little matter to the discussion of the historical event.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: dp5486 on December 17, 2007, 08:07:36 PM
Does anybody happen to know who Zhuk and Feodosia Stepanovna are? They both attended the burial and I can't seem to track them down in any of the Rasputin books I've read.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Petrushka on December 18, 2007, 11:05:12 AM
FA - Whilst I don't think BeautyQueen expressed herself terribly well, her point is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed quite so strongly.  It is impossible to dispute that as Empress, Alexandra clearly had the 'right' or ability to make such a decision.  Without understanding the logic behind it, it does seem (particularly today) a strange decision that Rasputin's own children were not permitted to attend their father's funeral.  It almost suggests a sense of ownership of Rasputin by the Empress? The children were clearly old enough to attend in a sincere fashion and of similar ages to the Imperial children.  I would argue that it IS quite an interesting (if poorly expressed) point.

Accepting that Rasputin did not see a huge amount of his children for prolonged periods, I would still be intrigued as to why they wouldn't be permitted to attend?  Even if they had a separate ceremony before the actual internment - it still seems an odd decision.  This is further compounded by the variety of other people in attendance.

While none of us appreciate someone talking about a member of the IF in critical tones, it does appear a rather 'cold' attitude.  Yes Alexandra could effectively make the decision, but the thought behind it intrigues me.

Does anyone know why this may have been done?
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on December 18, 2007, 04:09:35 PM
Rasputin's family attended a Requim Mass with the body on December 20, with the service for the dead performed by Bishop Isidore.  Nicholas and Alexandra had decided to have the burial itself be a very private affair at the site near the Feodorvsky Sobor.  Virtually nobody was there, except for the immediate IF, Vyroubova and only a couple of unnamed "intimate friends".

Russian's from what I understand, are less hung up about attending the burial itself than attending the Funeral Service itself.  Nobody would dare miss the service, but equally wouldn't really be offended if not asked to attend the burial.  This is exactly what happened when Tante Lilly passed.  The Russian Orthodox funeral service was packed, standing room only, but only the immediate family went to the burial.  I don't think Alexandra felt she was depriving his children of anything.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Petrushka on December 19, 2007, 02:26:24 AM
Thanks for that - as with so many things it's difficult to understand the 'way things were done' because of the cultural differences and of course the difference of almost a century. 

I know this is a question that's been asked before - but has anyone ever been able to accurately place the burial site itself?  Was there a marker originally?  Once the body was exhumed, I've always wondered what happened to the icon the IF had signed?  That would be a find!

Best wishes
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on December 19, 2007, 09:05:42 AM
The actual burial site has been discussed, and has always been known but never revealed because it would cause too much disruption to the area and the local priests and bishop do not want the site to become used for "weird" things, which would inevitably happen.  There was no marker at all. Initially, the site was vandalized just days after the burial.  Soon afterwards the foundations of the chapel Anya Vyroubova was building were laid over the grave, but the construction never went further.  Kerensky had the icon after he had Rasputin's body exhumed and brought to Petrogard, it disappeared thereafter.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on December 21, 2007, 10:09:16 PM
Quote
FA - Whilst I don't think BeautyQueen expressed herself terribly well, her point is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed quite so strongly.  It is impossible to dispute that as Empress, Alexandra clearly had the 'right' or ability to make such a decision.  Without understanding the logic behind it, it does seem (particularly today) a strange decision that Rasputin's own children were not permitted to attend their father's funeral.  It almost suggests a sense of ownership of Rasputin by the Empress? The children were clearly old enough to attend in a sincere fashion and of similar ages to the Imperial children.  I would argue that it IS quite an interesting (if poorly expressed) point.

I agree that Alexandra may have legally had the right to decide who attended the funeral, but that doesn't mean she should have had the right. It is mean that she wouldn't allow Rasputin's own daughters to be there, even though she was allowed to tell them that. An empress could have the right to do anything she wanted, but that doesn't make it *actually* right.

I didn't know Rasputin's remains were missing.  :-\
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on December 21, 2007, 10:25:08 PM
The Empress of Russia HAD the right.  Perhaps you agree that she should have died because she was "wrong" to have that right.  It is really pointless to engage in this "she was mean" or "she shouldn't have". She had the right, she did. and frankly Rasputin's family was GRATEFUL that the Empress of Russia cared about him and gave him more of a funeral than he could ever have hoped for without her. PLEASE leave your 21st century sensibilities at the door....

Rasputin's body was burned in the forest and the ashes "scattered to the four winds" according to those who burned it.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 22, 2007, 09:30:25 AM
Was there any specific reason why Alexandra kept Rasputin's daughters from attending his burial?
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Forum Admin on December 22, 2007, 09:54:14 AM
Helen there is no written record of why the decision was made as it was.  All we know is that the family including his children attended the Funeral Services for the Dead in the orthodox tradition, with the body present the day before the burial. This is as good as standing at the gravesite in the Orthodox tradition, to the best of my  knowledge.  Alexandra decided that only the IF, Vyroubova and "a very few intimate friends" would stand at the grave site for the burial. Her exact reasons for this are lost to us.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 22, 2007, 10:49:07 AM
Helen there is no written record of why the decision was made as it was.  All we know is that the family including his children attended the Funeral Services for the Dead in the orthodox tradition, with the body present the day before the burial. This is as good as standing at the gravesite in the Orthodox tradition, to the best of my  knowledge.  Alexandra decided that only the IF, Vyroubova and "a very few intimate friends" would stand at the grave site for the burial. Her exact reasons for this are lost to us.

Thanks. I do understand that - right or wrong - the Empress of Russia had the power to make this type of decision, but it just sounds somewhat odd that Rasputin's own children wouldn't be included in the circle of the "few intimate friends", unless there was a specific reason for this.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: nena on December 13, 2008, 02:02:34 PM
During the Revolution, and Imperial Family's arrest at Tsarskoe Selo in 1917, his body was transferred to St. Petersburg(or Moscow, I am not sure), then was burned by Bolsheviks.

I have read on his funeral was presented Alix and OTMA -- in his deathbed was found icon with signatures of Alexandra, and four Grand Duchesses. I doubt Alexei was at funeral, for NII it is unlikely. Anna Vyrubova was, too. She gave order to build that Church near AP just before he was murdered and in which he was buried.

Documents about his body exhumation disappeared in the 1930s.

Olga Nicholaievna, a day after murder, mentioned in her diary that they(IF) were doubt that Dimitri Pavlovich also took part in Yussupov's night. Of course, Felix and Dmitrii already had planned -- what they had to say, etc. etc. And it is interesting several woman were at Yussupov's palace on December 16th 1916, that is what Rasputin heard when he entered at Palace. One of woman screamed when she saw Rasputin. That is that voice one policeman heard near the Palace.

How about Secret Police -- they weren't follow him? Of course, but until 10.p.m.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Sarushka on December 13, 2008, 02:39:03 PM
I have read on his funreal was presented Alix and OTMA -- in his deathbed was found icon with signatures of Alexandra, and four Grand Duchesses. I doubt Alexei was at funreal, for NII it is unlikely. Anna Virburova was, too. She gave order to build that Church near AP just before he was murdered and in which he was buried.

From Olga Nikolaevna's diary, 21 December 1916:
"At 9 we 4, Papa and Mama rode to the site of Anya’s building, where a service was conducted and Father Grigori was buried -- on the left side of the future church. Save us, Holy Lord..."

From Maria's diary, 21 December 1916:
"The 4 of us were with Papa, Mama and others at Gregory’s funerals. Buried at Ania’s construction."

(The Olga excerpt was translated by Helen A., and Maria's by matushka.)
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: nena on December 13, 2008, 06:41:18 PM
Thank you Sarah. Now we know on his funeral were presented Nicholas, Alexandra and Four Grand Duchesses, Vasilyev(priest of IF), hospital' s priest, architect Yakovlyev,Malycev, Alikina Laptinska, Anna Virburova, Lili Dehn, T. Voino(Virburova's servant), Loman, Ischchenko (he sang in funeral).


NII's diary ..
21 December 1916
At 9 we went to field where we were presented at sad scene. Never forgotten Georgiy, which was killed on night 16/7 December in Yussupov's house, was buried. Priest A. Vasilyev officiated service, after we went home.

 
From Razdinsky's Rasputin: Life and Death

After this, Nicholas II had not more good words for Dmitri and Felix (and for Purishkevich, too) . I think he hate murders, just because of this. Their relationships were broken.
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: Joanna on December 14, 2008, 04:18:13 PM
The architect Yakolev mentioned by nena is the same man who wrote the book on the interiors of the Alexander Palace c1927.

I believe the decision to not include the daughters of Rasputin at the burial was to maintain secrecy of the location. St. Petersburg was volatile during the days after the murder and there was a need to protect the coffin. The chapel of Anna Vyrubova had recently been consecrated and the choice of the site was most probably an interim solution but within two months revolution began.

Joanna
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: GoldenPen on February 13, 2009, 07:54:12 AM
Rasputin's family probably thought it was an honor to have the Empress of all of Russia to plan the funeral. Much different thinking, in the 20th century, especially for Russia with a royal family.

Truly, GoldenPen
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: GoldenPen on February 13, 2009, 07:55:22 AM
An afterthought, Alexandra probably wanted the funeral done her way as a thank you.


Truly, GoldenPen
Title: Re: Rasputin's Funeral
Post by: nena on February 13, 2009, 09:05:37 AM
I think Empress though that she had to do it. Also, she was shocked with R.'s murder.