Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Rulers Prior to Nicholas II => Topic started by: Janet Luise on March 12, 2004, 05:26:07 PM

Title: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Janet Luise on March 12, 2004, 05:26:07 PM
 ??? "The only man in Russia who is important is the man I'm talking to..... and he's only important as long as I'm talking to him!"
I vaguely remember a college history professor attributing this to Czar Paul. While searching the internet for clarification I found this fantastic website.  Congratulations.

If anyone knows who said that, I'd appreciate finding out.
Thanks JAN
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 13, 2004, 12:31:52 PM
Janet - this does not sound like Paul. While a troubled man, he was not particularly egotistical. It sounds to me more like a quote by Louis XIV, but I've heard the quote (not referring to Russia) before, just not sure of who said it.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: kmerov on February 24, 2005, 12:43:37 PM
Does anyone know why Emperor Paul made it be, that a Dowager Empress took precedense over an Empress?
And did his wife Maria Feodorovna use that right, just like the later MF, Dagmar?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: kmerov on February 26, 2005, 05:49:18 PM
Is there anyone who knows this :).
Is it because he didnt like his daughter in-law, or is it some eastern tradition?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Macedonsky on February 27, 2005, 12:09:11 PM
Sovereigns are ranked on their accession dates. The same system for Russian Empresses. After Nicholas I's accession his mother took precedense over widow of his brother who  took precedense over Empress Consort.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Tsarfan on March 30, 2005, 04:18:11 PM
That's very interesting.  I had always heard that rank had to do with the extent of relationship to an emperor (as with grand ducal titles being conferred only on the children and grandchildren of an emperor).  For instance, a dowager empress took precedence because she was both the wife and the mother of an emperor, whereas a reigning empress was only the wife of an emperor.  By this rule, Nicholas I's sister-in-law would also have taken precedence over his wife, because she was both a wife and a sister-in-law to an emperor.

I must admit that the rule you cited seems more straightforward.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Charles on March 31, 2005, 07:56:08 AM
Alexander I's wife, Elizaveta Alekseevna, died in early 1826, shortly after Alexander died.  So, that rule that you cite Tsarfan, would have never applied to her.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Tsarfan on March 31, 2005, 09:45:39 PM
I have never seen the House Laws.  Is there a good English-language publication of them or a good synopsis?

Thanks, all.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Macedonsky on April 01, 2005, 07:01:40 AM
Quote
I have never seen the House Laws.  Is there a good English-language publication of them or a good synopsis?

Try to search links of my site.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Paul on May 26, 2005, 04:51:12 AM
I'd read somewhere that Paul did this out of gratitude to his wife for standing by him during his mother's reign. He wanted to insure his wife's standing as first lady of the land, whatever his own fate might be.

For all of the bad press that Paul has received, he must've had some redeeming qualities. Both of his wives were amazing loyal to him.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 29, 2005, 07:14:53 PM
Quote
I'd read somewhere that Paul did this out of gratitude to his wife for standing by him during his mother's reign. He wanted to insure his wife's standing as first lady of the land, whatever his own fate might be.

For all of the bad press that Paul has received, he must've had some redeeming qualities. Both of his wives were amazing loyal to him.


Paul was able to observe and to learn first hand the impact of the unstable succession laws had on the dynasty and Russia. I don't know that any of the Law was put together with anything personal in mind - and it was a system of succession in use in other countries.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 06, 2005, 09:52:59 PM
I want to start a thread on Paul I's assasination because it remains an interesting subject with many unanswered questions. I visited the Michael Castle in St Petersburg last month and saw the room where the assasination took place, while the guide demonstated how it all must have happened. But no one really knows anything for sure, other than the fact that Paul ended dead that night...
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 06, 2005, 10:41:12 PM
Who was behind his assassination?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: kenmore3233 on September 06, 2005, 11:00:11 PM
Quote
Who was behind his assassination?


Paul was assasinated by a large group of prominent Russians, including Bennigsen, the famed military commander, Pahlen, a scion of one of Russia's leading noble families and a leading government minister, and many other notable persons of the time.

This group of assasins made their plans well in advance. That the group formed in the first place was due to the growing sense that Paul was mentally unstable and that his whims were leading Russia to political and economic ruin.

Paul was definitely mentally unstable. An obsessive-compulsive who was prone to fits of paranoia and rage, his mental condition became worse under the stress of governing.

During Paul's last months, he ended Russia's war with France and proposed an alliance with Napoleon. Further, he went to war with England, even going so far as to dispatch 20,000 Cossacks on the bizzare and impossible mission of conquering India via an overland Asiatic route.

Paul's reversal of Russia's traditional alliance with England was regarded as an act of insanity. When Napoleon heard about it from Russian diplomats, he was so amazed that he had the diplomats arrested, thinking that they must have deliberately misrepresented Paul's directives.

The Russian aristocracy in particular was negatively affected by Paul's alienation of England, as these aristocrats made their living by selling their agricultural products in British markets.

The ranks of Paul's assasins were swelled by others who were motivated by anger and a desire for revenge. In the five years of Paul's reign (1796-1801),  many prominent citizens of St. Petersburg were jailed, publically humiliated, exiled or ruined socially and professionally as a result of Paul's paranoid and vindictive cruelty.

By 1801, obviously many people had good reasons for wanting Paul dead.

The object of the assasins at first was to let Paul live but to force him, by threatening his life in his bedchamber, to sign an abdication in favor of his son, Alexander. Alexander, just 24 at the time, was informed of this plan in advance and reluctantly gave his approval, as he knew as well as anyone else that his father was nearly insane and in need of removal.

The assasins, however, were thoroughly drunk the night they made their way via a supposedly secret staircase to Paul's bedchamber, and they beat him to death in the ensuing melee.

I believe there were approximately two dozen assasins in Paul's bedchamber that night.

Paul is a very fascinating figure to study...at least from a psychological perspective. He was actually rather intelligent and he had a grandiose element to his personality. If not for his mental illness, Paul might have proven to be an unusually capable tsar.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 07, 2005, 06:48:15 AM
Paul was well aware that he was in danger of being assasinated. Therefore he decided to live in a place where he would be protected from intruders. He chose the Michael (Mikhailovsky) Castle, which more resembled a medieval structure than a contemporary palace. This castle was surrounded by water on all sides (a contemporary version of a protective moat) and the bridges would go up at night, cutting off access from the city.

(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/2786/michaelcastle26og.jpg)
Michael Castle


But the danger came from inside rather than the outside. Paul only lived in his fortress for 40 days, and was assasinated in his bedroom by courtiers close to him, who had free access to his chamber. Paul could have saved himself by escaping into his wife's chambers, connected to his by a small hallway, but by at that time he was convinced that he could not trust his wife either and the doorway to her chamber was blocked to prevent assasins from coming in through there. Thus, Paul became the victim of his own mistrust...

(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/489/stairwayinmc3gm.jpg)
Secret staircase the assasins used to get to Paul's chamber on the night of the murder


After Paul's death, the Castle became Engineer's House, since no one in the imperial family felt comfortable living there.

(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5076/michaelcastlecourtyard8bg.jpg)
Paul I
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Grand Duke on September 07, 2005, 06:45:56 PM
Quote
Paul is a very fascinating figure to study...at least from a psychological perspective. He was actually rather intelligent and he had a grandiose element to his personality. If not for his mental illness, Paul might have proven to be an unusually capable tsar.


I think these will help:

TSAR PAUL AND THE QUESTION OF MADNESS (http://www.nationalism.org/patranoia/files/ragsdale-tsar-paul.pdf) by Hugh Ragsdale.

"On the Education of Autocrats: Catherine's Grandsons" (http://www.columbia.edu/~kmp30/m-ba.html) B.A. Essay by Kate Pickering of University of Chicago (Note of the Author: Please remember: I was young and dumb when I wrote it.)
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 01, 2005, 04:34:45 PM
I have the Ragsdale book on order. I am attempting a study of Paul I and his reign and would like to know of any other books about him.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: crazy_wing on December 01, 2005, 11:40:03 PM
The leader of the assasination was Count Peter Alexeyevich Pahlen.  He was the Governor of St. Petersburg and was trusted by Paul. Pahlen was supported by General Bennigsen, his friend, the Zubov brothers (one was Catherine the Great's last lover) and a number of commanders as well.  They knew they needed to gain support from Alexander but he was indecisive and he rejected an earlier conspiracy led by Panin (which failed of course).  

However, Paul became more crazy and threatened to replace Alexander with Eugene of Wurttemburg as Czarevich.  Paul also made Alexander read the passage descriping the death of Czarevich Alexei, who was tortured to death by Peter the Great.  

Pahlen emphasized that they did not want to take the life of Paul and they only wanted Paul to abdicate in favor of Alexander.  Once he had abdicated, he would be send away to retire with his wife and/or mistress.  Alexander finally agreed because he thought that wouldn't splatter blood onto his hands.  

The night before the assasination, Paul was rude, perhaps he guessed the assasins were coming soon.  After a concert, he looked at his wife "up and down with a sneer, crossed his arms on his chest, and nosily blew out his breath with his nostrils distended, his pupils small and hard".  Then he gave Alexander and Constantin the same look.  At last, he berated Pahlen .  At dinner, his family tried to thank him accofding to Russian custom but he gave them a sacrastic smile and left the room without saying good night to anyone.  

On the night of March 11, the 3rd battalion of the Semeonovsky regiment, which Alexander commanded, was in charge of guarding the castle.  That night, Paul was more friendly during dinner but he found every mirror in the dining room had a defect.  He said to General Kutuzov, "It shows me with my neck crooked."

At 11 o'clock, about 50 conspirators made their way to the castle in 2 groups, one lead by Pahlen and the other by Plato Zubov and Bennigsen.  The entered the castle through a side drawbridge, "climbed a narrow spiral staircase, and slipped into a library that served as antechamber to Paul's apartment".  The door was guarded by two sleepy footmen.  Awakened by the noise, one collapsed and the other fled in terror.  

Approx 10 men followed the Zubovs and Bennigsen into the bedroom but found it empty.  Bennigsen spotted bare feet behind a screen.  They grabbed the Emperor and forced him to abdicate.  Paul refused and Bennigsen and Plato Zubov left the room.    Paul continued to struggle against the officers and during the scuffle, the candle went out.  Somebody threw a gold snuffbox and struck Paul on the temple.  He collapsed and out of fear, some officers stranggle Paul to keep him quiet.  Paul, struggling for air thought he saw his son Constantine and pleaded for mercy.  Finally Paul died.  His wife heard the screams and rushed to his room screaming murder in German.  Bennigsen's soldiers stopped her while the others tidied the room up.  

From Alexander of Russia by Henri Troyat
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Elisabeth on December 05, 2005, 02:32:46 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the wonderful pictures and historical background.

But I would like to add, that I think the murder of Paul was as much an "accident" as the murder of his father, Peter III. In other words, it was very convenient, too convenient. Think about it, if Paul had survived this night, what would he have done to the conspirators? His son Alexander was of a gentle and retiring nature - there is no way he would have taken the throne, abdication or no abdication, whilst his father was still living, breathing, and protesting.

It was a mistake for the conspirators to involve Alexander. Of course, they thought that this would protect them from later, inevitable reprisal. But in fact all it did was to inform Alexander of a plot against his father which could, and did, turn deadly. Therefore, for the rest of his life, Alexander lived with the knowledge that he had had a hand, however inadvertent, in the murder of his own father. Some say his sense of guilt contributed to his deep religiosity and increasingly sphinx-like character. At any rate the story of Paul's murder fed directly into the later myth that Alexander did not die in Taganrog in 1825 but instead "disappeared" in order to become a monk and expiate his great "sin."
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Oliver on December 03, 2006, 11:11:54 AM
I recently read the biography on Tsar Paul I by Roderick McGrew, I really enjoyed reading the life of this obscure Tsar. It was interesting to learn about the life of Catherine the Greats son, her bad relationship with him, his upbringing, passion for the military, marriage, love affairs, harsh short reign and then his ultimate cruel demise.

Its hard to find books on him though, I was lucky enough to find the McGrew biography in a booksale.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on December 03, 2006, 07:51:13 PM
Well, there is usually lots about him in biographies of his mother. They usually don't paint him in the most flattering light, for one reason or another. It is true that that he was very complicated. He had to grow up in the shadow of his mother, and he was more than a bit unstable. He had overtones of his supposed father in him ( Peter III), but maybe that was less genetic ( if he was his father), and more that his position as heir to the Russian throne under a dominating Empress ( his mother, not aunt, as it was with Peter III), made him act that way?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Oliver on December 04, 2006, 10:52:54 AM
It was interesting to find out about his love of all things chivalrous and how he became the Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller, creating a Russian branch of the order, didn't that cause some trouble? I read the book a few weeks ago and have forgotten some things.



Apparently his wife was one of the tallest Tsarinas, which posed a problem when she had to dance with her husband.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on December 04, 2006, 04:23:41 PM
He did have a interest in stuff like that. He was rather short, but it is the later Romanovs who owed their height to his wife. This was shown in Alexander III and his brothers, and basically every other Romanov male, until Nicholas II who was short. Radzinsky's book says that this was the Wurrtemburg height that came from Sophia of Wurrtemburg ( Maria Feodorovna).
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Oliver on December 05, 2006, 03:09:44 PM
Was Catherine the Great supposed to be beautiful/attractive? Because Paul I certainly looks at least in his portraits looks unattractive, almost pixyish with that upturned nose.

I think he took after his father, wasn't Peter III supposed to be quite ugly?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 08:20:48 AM
Yes, Peter III was. It is said that Paul resembled him both in personality and in looks, despite some question about the paternity there. It's a curious thing, and kind of makes you think Peter III was his father. At any rate, Paul kind of worshiped his long dead alleged father. His mother Catherine was no beauty, and never claimed to be. When young, she might have been a bit attractive, but that was it. She had other attractions than beauty.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: ilyala on December 06, 2006, 12:50:59 PM
Was Catherine the Great supposed to be beautiful/attractive? Because Paul I certainly looks at least in his portraits looks unattractive, almost pixyish with that upturned nose.

I think he took after his father, wasn't Peter III supposed to be quite ugly?

(http://www.peterhof.org/pal/p15.jpg)

catherine the great. i for one don't find her very beautiful and i can see likeness to paul...

but you can judge for yourself :)
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 01:10:09 PM
Yes, although I am not sure that anyone ever noted his likeness to his mother. He would not have liked it if they had though. He no doubt prefered to think he looked like his father, or not, depending on who his father was. Catherine had many lovers, but she was no beauty, although she may have been attractive in a way the portraits of that age don't capture. But, Catherine always liked to be known for her intelligence,though and not her beauty, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: ilyala on December 09, 2006, 02:28:47 AM
she wasn't unattractive. i mean, every woman, no matter how ugly she is regarded by most people, has at least one man who thinks she's beautiful. it's all in the taste, and people whom we consider ugly today were considered beautiful at some point.

(http://www.lacquerbox.com/tsekv2.jpg)

edited to add: that, above, was probably a flattering portrait. but i sincerely doubt that any man can sleep with a woman he finds completely ugly
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Oliver on December 10, 2006, 04:34:42 AM
Whilst reading his biography I really was intrigued by one of his mistresses Catherine Nelidova whom he shared a Platonic relationship with and who wielded a lot of influence over him. There is hardly no information on the net about her which is a shame because she was very interesting.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Svetabel on December 10, 2006, 05:39:53 AM
Whilst reading his biography I really was intrigued by one of his mistresses Catherine Nelidova whom he shared a Platonic relationship with and who wielded a lot of influence over him. There is hardly no information on the net about her which is a shame because she was very interesting.

There is a lot of  info on her on Internet if you type in Russian :).
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Oliver on December 10, 2006, 06:07:24 AM
Thanks! I've been struggling to find a portrait, she looks very beautiful and graceful.

I've done a bit of research and Dmitry Levitzky painted that portrait whilst Catherine was a pupil at Smolny Institute.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on December 10, 2006, 06:09:21 PM
I have read a biography of him, and his relationship with Nelidova was a bit of a mystery. Since she wasn't his mistress in the conventional sense, people had a hard time understanding her hold over him. I think they would have understood it more easily if she had been his mistress in a conventional sense. This was one area were he did not resemble Peter III. He was always a mystery himself, something he passed down to his son, Alexander I.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Oliver on December 12, 2006, 11:32:22 AM
I really enjoyed the McGrew biography and I wish I could remember all the details but I've forgotten lots  :-[

I remember reading that Nelidova played quite a political role,both her and the Tsarina worked together against some other people. I'm sure I've gotten that right.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 15, 2006, 06:14:24 AM
2 books by Hugh Ragsdale on Paul I-
TSAR PAUL AND THE QUESTION OF MADNESS [1988]
PAUL I . A REASSESMENT OF HIS LIFE AND REIGN [1979]

 Both are quite good but hard to find.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on December 27, 2006, 01:41:44 PM
Well, there is usually lots about him in biographies of his mother. They usually don't paint him in the most flattering light, for one reason or another. It is true that that he was very complicated. He had to grow up in the shadow of his mother, and he was more than a bit unstable. He had overtones of his supposed father in him ( Peter III), but maybe that was less genetic ( if he was his father), and more that his position as heir to the Russian throne under a dominating Empress ( his mother, not aunt, as it was with Peter III), made him act that way?

Much about Paul's personality is arguably a classic "nature vs. nuture" psychology question when considering whether or not Peter III was his father.  Though to be fair, his personality GREATLY resembled Peter III.  Not only in military training and obsession, he was often considered sickly and small, as was Peter as well as paranoid (which imo could be attributed to his fear of his mother and of assassination by her or those working for her).  There was a mention of Paul's pug nosed look coming from an attack of typhus, though I don't remember just now where I read that.  But he does have other features that are similar to Peter III as well as of his mother.  On this site, under the question of paternity, it is said he resembles other Romanovs as well though it doesn't mention which ones.    But, to be sure, his mother and Peter were second cousins.  Therefore, he could have gotten Peter's looks through Catherine whose mother was of the house of Holstein.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 27, 2006, 05:18:05 PM
Well, there is usually lots about him in biographies of his mother. They usually don't paint him in the most flattering light, for one reason or another. It is true that that he was very complicated. He had to grow up in the shadow of his mother, and he was more than a bit unstable. He had overtones of his supposed father in him ( Peter III), but maybe that was less genetic ( if he was his father), and more that his position as heir to the Russian throne under a dominating Empress ( his mother, not aunt, as it was with Peter III), made him act that way?

Much about Paul's personality is arguably a classic "nature vs. nuture" psychology question when considering whether or not Peter III was his father.  Though to be fair, his personality GREATLY resembled Peter III.  Not only in military training and obsession, he was often considered sickly and small, as was Peter as well as paranoid (which imo could be attributed to his fear of his mother and of assassination by her or those working for her).  There was a mention of Paul's pug nosed look coming from an attack of typhus, though I don't remember just now where I read that.  But he does have other features that are similar to Peter III as well as of his mother.  On this site, under the question of paternity, it is said he resembles other Romanovs as well though it doesn't mention which ones.    But, to be sure, his mother and Peter were second cousins.  Therefore, he could have gotten Peter's looks through Catherine whose mother was of the house of Holstein.

I wrote the Paul biography on the APTM website. What I wrote about his paternity should most properly be read in its entirety, if for no other reason than to avoid out of context comments such as the ones above which refer to the article. I realize not everyone will do this, so I will attempt to summarize.

Many people believe that Paul was fathered by someone other than Peter III, most often mentioned is Saltykov. However, I believe the circumstances and logic make a better case for Peter III being his father than anyone else. These are listed in detail in the article. In terms of resemblances, one expects a resemblance to his mother, Catherine the Great, but he also resembles Peter III greatly - which is a reason why Peter III may have been his father. I am sorry the language was not more precise about this.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on December 28, 2006, 03:43:46 PM
No, Lisa please forgive me.  my mistake for taking the article out of context.  I should have re-read it before making any comments. Your language WAS precise enough, I hope you can forgive me for my post sounding as if I didn't read it thoroughly the first time.

I do know that many believe that Saltykov to be Paul's father but agree with you that Paul exhibits more characteristics both physical and emotion consistent with Peter III being his true father. I wasn't in disagreement of your article at all, and the reference to him having Catherine's similarities as well as Peter's whether through the Hostein of which Catherine was a part or Romanov through Peter and HIS mother were strictly my own opinion.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 01, 2007, 10:31:12 PM
No, Lisa please forgive me.  my mistake for taking the article out of context.  I should have re-read it before making any comments. Your language WAS precise enough, I hope you can forgive me for my post sounding as if I didn't read it thoroughly the first time.

I do know that many believe that Saltykov to be Paul's father but agree with you that Paul exhibits more characteristics both physical and emotion consistent with Peter III being his true father. I wasn't in disagreement of your article at all, and the reference to him having Catherine's similarities as well as Peter's whether through the Hostein of which Catherine was a part or Romanov through Peter and HIS mother were strictly my own opinion.

Lori: I think we can just say, we're cool. I hadn't re-read that piece in a good 8 years, and sometimes, when I read something I've written before, I realize I could have been clearer. I think that's the case here, but if you understand my point after re-reading, that's terrific.

I would still love to see DNA testing to see who fathered Catherine's son. My theory has always been that she would never have allowed herself the freedom of her own desires unless she had actually produced a legitimate heir from her husband. But, I could be wrong.

Best,

Lisa
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 03, 2007, 10:21:55 AM
Lisa

I would love it if DNA were allowed on poor Paul too.  I agree, that she was too self disciplined in the beginning to understand her own sexuality to bear an illigitmate child.  I feel as you do, that after she bore a legal heir, she perhaps felt secure in her own sexuality to realize what she had been missing in the bedroom, though perhaps not so secure in her position as a GD in Russia.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 03, 2007, 11:03:16 AM
Poor Paul indeed. There is even a story that was not his mother's son either! The old "baby switch" routine.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 03, 2007, 04:00:04 PM
I hadn't heard that one before!  But some of her grandchildren, imo did exhibit Catherine's traits.  So, i'm betting that's a nice tall tale.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 03, 2007, 04:29:34 PM
I would not give it much credence either. It is mentioned in the Ragsdale books as an aside to all the other rumours about his  origins [?]
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 04, 2007, 09:49:59 AM
Poor Paul indeed. There is even a story that was not his mother's son either! The old "baby switch" routine.

Indeed, although he was a much wanted heir, he became a victim of many of those around him. He was often used for other's purposes and not his own. He was in the end murdered by his son, because it was felt that it would be better if Alexander I was on the throne, as Paul's behavior was often erratic. His personality was certainly complex, but the circumstances of his life only made that more true.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 04, 2007, 10:21:42 AM
I agree that Paul's behavior could be erratic but I found something interesting on Wikipedia:

The popular view of Paul I has long been that he was mad, had a mistress, and accepted the office of Grand Master of the Order of St John, which furthered his delusions. These eccentricities and his unpredictability in other areas naturally led, this view goes, to his assassination. This portrait of Paul was promoted by his assassins and their supporters, and has become accepted wisdom mainly by repetition.

Comparatively recent research has reconsidered and rehabilitated the character of Paul I. In the 1970s, two academic panels provided the assessments of new research into Paul I: one at Montreal in 1973 and the other at St. Louis in 1976. Some of the findings were presented in a book edited by Hugh Ragsdale in 1979: Paul I: A reassessment of His Life and Reign, University Center for International Studies, University of Pittsburgh, 1979. The reappraisal of Paul I has demonstrated his character as someone of high morals, who followed his conscience.
 

Paul suffered a lonely and strict upbringing, and whilst he was eccentric and neurotic, he was not mentally unbalanced. Though an analysis of his biography reveals an obsessive-compulsive personality, he had "characteristics fairly common in the population at large". Where Paul differed, was that by 1796 he had to manage the whole of the Russian Empire.


Though I don't agree that he wasn't unfaithful, I do agree that he wasn't mentally unbalanced.  Though surely open for debate, it is nice to read that people are reconsidering their position on this unfortunate man.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 04, 2007, 10:35:51 AM
The Ragsdale books do offer a fairrly positive reassesment of Paul and his [aborted] reign.  It is too bad they are hard to come by and costly when one does find them.
It seems to me that Paul was "removed" not so much for his supposed instabilty as he was for threatening the status quo. The entrenched powers-that-be were on their way out if he remained.
 I still have not figured out his logic in the Malta affair, however, despite his friendliness with the Roman Catholic Pope.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 04, 2007, 10:40:48 AM
I am a little hazy on the Malta thing as well.  I do agree though that Paul had to go according to those "powers that be" simply because they would have lost their way of life.

I hope to come across the Ragsdale book. I would like to read SOMETHING more positive and maybe more accurate with less of the rumour mill thing going on about Paul.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 04, 2007, 11:01:46 AM
There was an academic conference at the Malta chapter "palace" in Gatchina last spring, which I sadly missed by just days.  I am hoping to get a translation of their reports this year.  I was able to see the place however. It was recently reburnished, I reckon for the conference itself. There is also a Malta chapel in St.P. Actually 2 chapels- one RC the other RO.
 There are actually 2 Ragsdale books as well. Reassesment  & Question of Madness. Good luck findoing them- it took me ages  and $$s !
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 04, 2007, 11:03:54 AM
I have read one biography of Paul, but for the life of me can't remember the title. I think it said that his relationship with his mother, Catherine the Great seemed to go up and down in later years. Sometimes it was worse, but sometimes it was better. I think that's interesting, and rings true. But, after her death, he was indeed against her. Maybe if he was ever nice to her, it was because he wanted the position of heir no matter what, although Catherine would never have entertained the idea of making someone else her heir. Catherine, on her side as well, never really tried to have any sort of bond with him- she thought other things more important, although she used him to justify her taking the throne. Both of them were to blame for their less than satisfactory relationship. However, circumstances of how he was born and raised are most to blame, in my opinion.

As for his reputation, he gets over shadowed by the reign of his mother, ( naturally), and also by the reign of his son, which seemed much more normal than his. He wasn't as bad as claimed, something you are surprised to find out when you read a biography of him. Most books about his mother make him look bad. He was a complex person, and it is easier to condemn him than to attempt to understand him. He, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be condemned. Russia was an mixed up country to rule, as much as his own behaviour was said to be to blame for the state of the country and court when he died. He seemed to try to be like his purported father, Peter III too much, because he was trying to escape his mother's shadow, and embrace what he thought of as his paternal legacy.  That did not make him popular, anymore than Peter III had been popular, and in fact most likely less so. I am of the opinion that if Paul had a different background and upbringing in particular, he would have been a good ruler. He wasn't inherently unstable, it was more the circumstances of his life that shaped his destiny in a not always good way, and made him act in ways that did not make him look good. His motivation was usually not bad.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 04, 2007, 11:09:28 AM
I think the standard bio, in English at least, is SO DARK A STREAM by Almedingen [1959]
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 04, 2007, 12:09:02 PM
I have read one biography of Paul, but for the life of me can't remember the title. I think it said that his relationship with his mother, Catherine the Great seemed to go up and down in later years. Sometimes it was worse, but sometimes it was better. I think that's interesting, and rings true. But, after her death, he was indeed against her. Maybe if he was ever nice to her, it was because he wanted the position of heir no matter what, although Catherine would never have entertained the idea of making someone else her heir. Catherine, on her side as well, never really tried to have any sort of bond with him- she thought other things more important, although she used him to justify her taking the throne. Both of them were to blame for their less than satisfactory relationship. However, circumstances of how he was born and raised are most to blame, in my opinion.

As for his reputation, he gets over shadowed by the reign of his mother, ( naturally), and also by the reign of his son, which seemed much more normal than his. He wasn't as bad as claimed, something you are surprised to find out when you read a biography of him. Most books about his mother make him look bad. He was a complex person, and it is easier to condemn him than to attempt to understand him. He, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be condemned. Russia was an mixed up country to rule, as much as his own behaviour was said to be to blame for the state of the country and court when he died. He seemed to try to be like his purported father, Peter III too much, because he was trying to escape his mother's shadow, and embrace what he thought of as his paternal legacy.  That did not make him popular, anymore than Peter III had been popular, and in fact most likely less so. I am of the opinion that if Paul had a different background and upbringing in particular, he would have been a good ruler. He wasn't inherently unstable, it was more the circumstances of his life that shaped his destiny in a not always good way, and made him act in ways that did not make him look good. His motivation was usually not bad.

Indeed, Paul was notably fair minded and very devout in his religious beliefs.  He was also a much-loved father and husband. His children were truly affected by his murder.  IMO if given half of a chance in the beginning of his life, he would have given  much to Russia just as his mother before him.  But because he was so inherently against HER, he in effect was against anything that would have furthered Russia's development.  I still feel in my own opinion that he really got the short end of the deal in every way.  Except for the number of his progeny, he wasn't given an opportunity to thrive.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 04, 2007, 12:34:08 PM
Indeed. Although Alexander I participated in his father's murder, he always felt some guilt, and this overwhelmed him in later years, perhaps causing some of the problems of his later life. I think he did it because he felt pressured by other factions, as much as he actually wanted the throne, at that point in time.The book I read said that his wife could not understand his murder, I think, and he was a pretty good husband by Romanov standards. He was perhaps better in private than in public, but then again, he wasn't given much opportunity to develop in his role as potential ruler during his mother's reign. He then just went off the deep end when he became ruler, trying to go against a past he didn't understand. I think he is much deeper than the popular perception of him, agreed. I think biographers of Catherine the Great must get past the stereotypes that seem to surround him, because more people read biographies of Catherine the Great than they do those of Paul.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 04, 2007, 01:07:01 PM
Well, that is simply because there are not many bios of Paul and there are tons of Catherine. I have a feeling this will change soon, as so much is about Romanov history is being re-freshed and re-evaluated. However, it does remain, that his reign was brief and the most noteworthy thing about him, generally, is his death.  There is a definite interest in him in Russia, and that does not necessarily mean any anti-Catherine sentiments.
I hope he emerges from a new study as more than just a footnote in Russian history.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 04, 2007, 04:23:55 PM
His reign was brief, although he seemed to do lots during his reign to turn back the clock, to make the past better, or justify the past. None of it was popular, so perhaps had he just been himself, and started with the future, not the past, things would have been different. He seems to have been defined by, both to himself and the world, his relationship with his mother, and even with his long dead father. But, he chose that. He was never able to move on from a past that he could not even understand in my opinion. That cost him. His death was really the end of palace conspricies with the Romanovs, so with him died the early part of the dynasty. But, Alexander I never really escaped the past either, because he too got tangled up in the past because of his role in his father's murder.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 04, 2007, 04:41:14 PM
I am not sure I understand you, IA, as Paul was definitely not reactionary. If anything, I think he was far more liberal than his mother dared to go. Remember, she pulled back from even HER left leanings at the end of her reign. IMO Paul would have embraced Napoleon, as his son did eventually, but with more enthusiasm. Perhaps even have avoided the war with France. [this is hypothecial, of course].  But Paul did exert an attempt to re-concile with Rome.  That, also imo, was a bad move on his part.
His personal isolationism and paranoia was a detrement as it left him an enigma to those who could understand his direction for the Empire.
Paul had traveled, he had definite views on what Europe was at the time.  I think he may have been forming his policy on the future, not the past.
[ok- he did have a grudge against his mother, but that seemed to have been sated with the funeral  rites].
 It is sadly romantic to visit Pavlosk, and see what he envisaged and the the Engineer's Palace in St.P. and see what he came to. Gatchina, of course, tells yet another story about him.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 05, 2007, 08:22:36 AM
What I meant was, was not so much his policies, but the way he seemed to want to do everything that Peter III had never done. He wanted to implement policies in Russia that were not the best, because Peter III would have liked it. He wanted to follow him in small things that did not really matter, but that caused aggravation to many. He also made changes to much of what his mother did, or he tried to. He changed the succession law dramatically, for instance to exclude female rulers because he didn't like his mother. I agree his more important policies were forward looking, it was in the petty stuff he was stuck in the past. In my opinion, this didn't make him that popular at court, because no one cared about Peter III at the time of Paul's reign, or his military fixations.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 05, 2007, 09:26:15 AM
Well, he did not change the sucession law, he created one. It was pretty much a "free-for-all" before that.  And women were allowed to succeed, but only after all legitimate males were exhausted.
Paul's militarism was pretty much standard for the times. I do not think he was any worse or better at it than any other monarch of the era.  Paul was definitely paranoid, as it proved he had every reason to be.
 As for his  father, well, he did not have much to emulate did he?  Peter III's reign was even more brief was it not? A blessing, as it proved to be.
Paul did not have the chance to make any real changes in Russia. He is hard to figure out, I think. Would he have progressed or regressed politically?  He did have plans for  some major reforms, the sucession is an example, but land reform and  a purging of the Court as well.  That is where his downfall lay, imo. He would remove, as you said, the vested interests of the end of his mother's reign. Who, for the most part, had been "vested" for some time and were quite comfortable where they were.
 From what I have read, if I understand correctly, Paul was not so much against his mother's policies, and may have actually carried them further. Remember, Catherine was terribly shaken by the French Revolution, as was everyone, and had turned a tad reactionary at the end of her reign. I think Paul's reaction to her's may have been another nail in his coffin, so to speak.
 I am not really trying to defend the man, I just think he deserves more discussion thanm he has previously merited.
He certainly was an interesting fellow was he not?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 05, 2007, 09:36:15 AM
That's for sure. I admit I am not that well versed in politics of his reign, as there are not that many good biographies of him. He was someone who I think you have to understand his background and personality to know his policies. But, maybe his policies were not that clear cut, and were more conceptual? After all, he did not rule long, and did not really have time to have clear cut policies. I think all monarchs of that era were shaken by the French Revolution, and that includes Paul, for sure. He wasn't liked at court for various reasons, and that's partly why it was so easy to get rid of him, including getting his own son to participate in his murder. I was wondering what your opinion was on some of the things he did at court that made him unpopular, in my opinion, or even if there were such things?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: ilyala on January 05, 2007, 09:57:37 AM
Paul was definitely paranoid, as it proved he had every reason to be.

as it happens in most cases, i think in his case his paranoia created the reasons for paranoia. i don't think anyone wanted to get rid of him until he started suspecting everyone.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 05, 2007, 10:33:19 AM
Remember, Catherine was terribly shaken by the French Revolution, as was everyone, and had turned a tad reactionary at the end of her reign. I think Paul's reaction to her's may have been another nail in his coffin, so to speak.
 I am not really trying to defend the man, I just think he deserves more discussion thanm he has previously merited.
He certainly was an interesting fellow was he not?


Absolutely.  In fact, he merits more credit than he gets.  I find him very misunderstood and oversimplified.   As if compartmentalizing him makes him easier to dismiss.

But to comment on your take on Catherine and the French Revolution, she was EXTREMELY shaken and was not above blaming the Bourbons themselves for this upheaval.  I mentioned a quoted from the Erickson book before but it bears repeating.  Something to the effect that the Bourbons threw the hand grenade underneath their own sofa and then had the nerve to act surprised when it went off.  It also adds that this was an interesting observation on Catherine's part as a prediction of her own dynasty's downfall a little over a century later. I think this was another reason she reversed many of her "enlightened" ideas towards the end of her life.  She tried to reign in her own "grenade" and took great pains to make sure no revolutionary ideas had an opportunity to make into Russia even though they were there already to be sure. 
Most certainly the seeds were planted before.  I think that Paul saw this, to his credit.  Though purging everything at the expense of those comfortable people you mentioned wasn't the best way to counteract anything reactionary, imo.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 05, 2007, 10:57:33 AM
For Russia, I think Paul was pretty "enlightened" himself. He did make the nobility liable to taxation [a BIG yuck from them!] as well as corporal punishment.  He also instigated  serf reform, limiting the time they were required to work for the landowners- something like only 3 days a week and no work on Sunday. A step towards the radical liberation to come. Even Catherine balked at these movements, although she did suggest them from time-to-time.
He also started the first state ministries.  Functioning bureauracy as opposed to personal appanges of favourites. I am not that well versed on his military reforms, but a quick scan shows it was in need of an update. I imagine this came just in time to be prepared, more or less, for the invasion from Napoleon.
In many ways, Paul laid the foundation for the "modern" autocracy that lasted until Nicholas II, IMO.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 05, 2007, 11:20:12 AM
Agreed.  All the "reforms" simply were simply unpopular w/the wrong people.  But, I think Paul misses out on being credited on all those points you cited.  Especially describing him as "enlightened".  Which you don't often see ascribed w/him but imo it is true.  How much Russia would have benefited had he been allowed to reign in his entiretly, do you feel?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 05, 2007, 11:32:41 AM
Well now, Paul  did have an awful lot of opposition did he not?  How far could he have gone? He was also rather erratic so would he have been consistent in his endeavors? Although he did have a small coterie of loyalists, would they have been enough to inspire the resistance to Napoleon?  Would he have been a dependable ally ? His affinity with Rome would certainly have alienated the Russian church...
Who knows ?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: lori_c on January 05, 2007, 11:50:43 AM
True enough.  Although his erratic behaviour perhaps would have become more consistent had he felt secure in his position.  As a dependable ally, IMO he was a loyal man.  The problem is who would he have allied himself with?  Would it have been Prussia, as Peter III did?  I suppose in a way it was better w/Alexander I in power as far as Napoleon goes.  It worked out better for Russia, certainly. 
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 05, 2007, 11:56:16 AM
I don't doubt some of his policies were good, but they don't really get mentioned in books. They ought to. Maybe one of the reasons that Paul is mentioned badly in books about his mother is because it doesn't usually focus on his own reign but rather on personal qualities that maybe are exaggerated.His policies were unpopular, and if they had not been, he would have survived longer. I think his military policy had much to do with Prussian style military reforms which were silly, and that harked back to Peter III. They were not important reforms, they just made him look silly and they were not very popular. Also, venerating Peter III's memory as he did wasn't in good taste, etc.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: imperial angel on January 08, 2007, 11:39:39 AM
I recently read the biography on Tsar Paul I by Roderick McGrew, I really enjoyed reading the life of this obscure Tsar. It was interesting to learn about the life of Catherine the Greats son, her bad relationship with him, his upbringing, passion for the military, marriage, love affairs, harsh short reign and then his ultimate cruel demise.

Its hard to find books on him though, I was lucky enough to find the McGrew biography in a booksale.

Now that I remember, this is the one I read as well. I don't think it's rare, but I don't know if many have heard of it. I thought it was interesting because it was a biography of him, but that it was a largely factual one, that just told you the facts. After reading it, I think someone should write a more up to date biography of him, because this one isn't well known, and there really needs to be a better source than biographies of his mother that only tell you the bad side of him. After reading that book, my one thought was that there was much about his life that was not widely known. Has anyone else read this book, and if so, what do you think?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: ALEXEI_P on March 04, 2007, 05:32:04 PM

Has anyone seen the film (2003) Russian film  "Bedny, bedny Pavel" ("Poor,poor Paul") with Viktor Sukhorov?.  It's availible with Russian audio and English subtitles.  I just saw it and can reccomend it. 

It was beautifully shot on locations in and around St. Petersburg, including Gatchina, Pavlovsk, the Great Catherine palaces and the Mikhailovsky Castle.  Worth seeing in my opinion.

Alexei
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Svetabel on March 05, 2007, 10:14:42 AM

Has anyone seen the film (2003) Russian film  "Bedny, bedny Pavel" ("Poor,poor Paul") with Viktor Sukhorov?.  It's availible with Russian audio and English subtitles.  I just saw it and can reccomend it. 

It was beautifully shot on locations in and around St. Petersburg, including Gatchina, Pavlovsk, the Great Catherine palaces and the Mikhailovsky Castle.  Worth seeing in my opinion.

Alexei

One of the very good movies on a Russian Emperor. Viktor Suhorukov did his best.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 05, 2007, 10:40:28 AM
I agree wholeheartedly.  The building of his "castle" alone is worth the watch.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Nemos on October 19, 2007, 11:57:44 AM
http://pushkin-history.info/fotoalbom-old-1-/4280.html

Ìîíóìåíò Ïàâëà I âî äâîðå Èíæåíåðíîãî çàìêà â ÑÏá.
Monument of Paul I in a court yard of the Engineering lock in SPb.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Nemos on October 19, 2007, 12:15:51 PM
Êàêèå ñòàòóè ñòîÿò íà Êàìåðîíîâîé ãàëåðåè? Ìîæåò èõ ñíÿëè âî âðåìåíà Èìïåðàòîðà Ïàâëà I, à ó íàñ óæå 2-å êîïèè?
What statues cost on Kameronovoy galleries? Can them have removed in days of Emperor of Paul I, and at us already 2 copies?

http://pushkin-history.info/fotoalbom-old-1-/4285.html
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: ivanushka on October 19, 2007, 02:47:10 PM
I'm sure I've heard this quote attributed to Tsar Paul too, though I can't remember where.

Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Vasaborg on November 21, 2007, 12:46:15 PM
The last words of Paul I were "Gentlemen, in heaven's name spare me........... Give me time to say my prayers".
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Alixz on November 26, 2007, 09:17:52 AM
Actually it sounds more like something that Nicholas I would have said.

I, also, have heard it, but can't remember who said it.

Or even Franz Joseph of Austria.

I've been doing so much "over reading" (where the royal households meet and cross paths) that I have a lot of stuff floating around me, but I'll try to pin it down.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 19, 2008, 09:06:57 PM
How did his murder come to pass    like give me the run up the key players Reasons basically a Timetable   if that isntto much trouble.
Thanks in Advance
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 27, 2008, 07:26:10 PM
Please refer to the Alexander Palace Time Machine. I wrote a biography of Paul that is still posted there under "Palace Biographies". Sorry, we don't take orders here on the Forum. There is a great deal of material on Paul and a reasonable amount on his assassination in print, both in books and on the web.

Briefly, Paul was killed by a conspiracy of the nobility and with some complicity of members of the Imperial Family. He was known to be mentally unstable.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 27, 2008, 11:13:04 PM
Thank You very much
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 28, 2008, 12:12:50 AM
Paul may not have been the most stable leg on the table, but  do not really think he was actually mad.  Some of his intended reforms were actually  very progressive.  He did threaten the staus quo of certain classes, however. And certain alliances. A very complicated person to say the least. See the Hugh Ragsdale books.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: TsarMartyrNicholas on October 03, 2008, 01:46:54 PM
I've read somewhere that the Russians want to canonize Tsar Paul I as Tsar Martyr ... I also saw an icon of him made for that reason ...does anyone know anything more ?
And Tsar Peter I the Great was also in one icon I saw ....I hope that if they will be officially canonized as saints that I will get the chance to buy their icons as I already have 2 icons of the Holy Royal Martyrs , Tsar Nicholas II's family !
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 03, 2008, 02:55:57 PM
I do not know where you read that nonsense, but Paul was certainly not a religious figure for the Orthodox church.  He was very close to the Pope in Rome.  He also accepted the Mastership of the CATHOLIC order of the Knights of Malta, in exile. This is a very controversial issue, as  a corresponding Orthodox order was also founded by him, bit is not recognised by Rome, also Alexander returned the honours when he came to the throne].
 As for Peter I l, he abolished the Patriarchate and subjugated to clergy to his. State will. This establishment the Holy Synod lasted until the revolution.
 Both monarchs were far more friendly to the Western ideals, religion among them, than  Orthodoxy
 Any icons you may see are not religious, sanctioned by the RO church, but merely souvenirs.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Patsy on October 07, 2008, 02:15:52 PM
If you´re interested in this topic I must recommend a theatre play from Dimitri Merezkovsky, called "Death of Paul I."  Now it´s performed by Brno City Theatre (I´m from Czech Republic), I saw it this April. I find it historically correct and the characters are excellent. I hope some theatres in the world have (or will have) this play on hteir repertoir.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Alixz on October 21, 2008, 08:58:07 AM
I can recommend a book that is a little off track for Romanov scholars.  It is  Living With Ghosts by Prince Michael of Greece.

Prince Michael feels that he has some sort of 6th sense that allows him to see and talk with "dead people".

The book is a little strange, but Chapter 7 - The Misunderstood Ghost - is his "conversation" with Empress Marie Feodorovna wherein she defends her husband Paul I and explains that he was truly a good man who was misunderstood and hated by his mother Catherine the Great and numerous other members of the Russian imperial family.

It is an interesting take on Paul and his life, but as to the accuracy and/or veracity of the Prince Michael's story - who knows?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 21, 2008, 10:03:06 AM
Thank you, Alixz,
 I find objective  books about Paul are hard to come by. I do have a couple, though,  by Hugh Ragsdale.
 That Prince Michael has a sort of 6th sense does not surprise me in the least, he has the heritage and experience to be familiar with the past. He is also cognizant of his history and very unpretentious about it.  That he would  write about Paul is most interesting, I shall look for the book.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Alixz on October 21, 2008, 10:35:09 PM
Robert - you are welcome.

However, I do want to emphasize that only that one chapter is about Paul or any other member of the Romanov family.  The rest are stories of "hauntings" that Prince Michael experienced in other countries and other country homes.

I was a little disappointed in it, but I am glad to have a copy if just because Prince Michael wrote it and it is interesting to see what he is doing with his life.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Olgasha on May 20, 2009, 03:43:43 AM


Pavel I
[by Anton Losenko]
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1961/pavelibyantonlosenko.jpg)

Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Notionis2 on May 25, 2010, 08:30:03 AM
Paul Ist baptised "Michael" his last son, the only child he had after the death of his mother. Therefore, we may believe he felt free to choose the name he wanted.
During the same period, he planned to build a chapel to St Michael and, with the help of a "vision" a soldier had about it, he appeared to be himself blessed with divine inspiration, a "fact" that the Orthodox Church uses today to declare him a saint martyr.
As everyone knows, he extended his plans from a chapel to a fortified castle, which allow us to say that St Michael was in his view supposed to protect him.
Of course, we remember that "Michael" was the Christian name of the first Romanov to reign.  That could be part of the explanation.
And, as everybody knows, Paul I was to be killed in the Michailovsky.

Does anybody have any document or historical fact to quote to say more about this short lived kind of mystic link between St Michael and Paul I?

Thanks to all

Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: bednayaliza on June 22, 2010, 01:16:28 PM
(http://s07.radikal.ru/i180/1006/cc/2a4f517b3d83t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s07.radikal.ru/i180/1006/cc/2a4f517b3d83.jpg.html)

Ekaterina Nelidova
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: violetta on October 19, 2010, 04:47:59 PM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/117.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: violetta on November 08, 2010, 12:45:08 AM
i`m fully aware of the fact that pavel I was a far more complex figure that is commonly regarded to be. and there are many factors tat influenced his state of mind and behavior. but for me he appears to be an oppressor who did his best to do away with many basic liberties.

who would be pleased if their sovereign ordered than no one except for midwives and doctors could move around the city after 9 p.m. pavel also forbade certain models of hats or trousers and to ake sure that people obeyed his orders a group of 200 dragons moved around st petersburg. he also introduced mmore severe censorship e.g. having closed down private publising houses and having introduced control over import of books and magazines from abroad. this is what his daughter-inlaw elizaveta alexeevna wrote to her mother on 20.03/01.04.1801 :" Dear Mother, now, when Russia is a European country again and foreign books arrive to us again, could you please inform me about new books?"
Pavel might have been thinking about certain reforms that might have benefitted the country but having limited basic human rights that were respected by his late mother he provoked a stream of very negative feelings.
   
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: violetta on November 09, 2010, 01:13:26 PM
I don`t claim to be an expert on Pavel`s reign (but I`m going to read a book on Pavel by Nikolay Shilder who wrote two magnificent books on Alexander I and Nicholas I thoug the latter remained unfinished because Shilder died). I peceive him through general books on Russian hhistory or through books on other Romanovs e.g. Catherine II. A very interesting evidence is provided by the letters of his daughter -in-law Elizaveta Alexevna. According to her, he was prone to mood changes:one day he adored soeone ,the next  day he started to persecute this person. It`s clearly stated that Elizaveta loved Catherine II and regretted her death. She often refers in very positive terms to her reign not only because of the benefits of her reign but also due to personal reasons. Alexandr and her enjoyed more freedom in Catherine1s times but when Pavel ascended the throne he treated his family and his surroundings as soldiers in is Gatchina regiment.   
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: violetta on November 10, 2010, 05:48:50 AM
This is MArsovo Field in St.Petersburg. In the background you can see Mikhailovskiy palace where Pavel was murdered


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/015-1.jpg)
Title: Paternity Of Paul I
Post by: Ortipo on August 04, 2012, 09:39:19 AM
тяв-тяв,

There has been much speculation whether Paul is the son of Peter III or of Sergei Saltykov.  The remains of both Paul and Peter are interred at Peter And Paul Cathedral in Saint Petersburg.  Has DNA testing been done?
Title: Re: Paternity Of Paul I
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 04, 2012, 11:35:41 AM
тяв-тяв,

There has been much speculation whether Paul is the son of Peter III or of Sergei Saltykov.  The remains of both Paul and Peter are interred at Peter And Paul Cathedral in Saint Petersburg.  Has DNA testing been done?

  IMO, and to my knowledge, no.  

  Having personally visited the Cathedral of SS Peter and Paul, I have the impression that the exhumation of a body in the central part of the cathedral is both difficult in obtaining the various approvals needed and very costly.  
  Perhaps there MAY be other items such as saved hair locks/cuttings, but then one has to consider the chain of custody, degredation via handling of specimens, etc.  Additionally, while this is an old "bone of contention" that arises occasionally, there seems to be no sustained/concerted effort  to focus on the thought.      Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Kalafrana on August 05, 2012, 06:37:49 AM
Generally speaking, there is a certain distaste, to put it no more strongly, for exhumations unless they are absolutely necessary, and even then.

I don't know about the position in Russia, but in England & Wales (Scotland has a separate legal system which I don't know much about) a court order is required and they are not easy to get. Exhumation orders are granted from time to time where there is a suspected murder, the victim has been buried and exhumation is needed to get evidence for the investigation. Another example is a scientific investigation into Spanish 'flu, which was carried out about five years ago (the BBC did a programme about it. The politician and diplomat Sir Mark Sykes died from Spanish 'flu during the Paris Peace Conference and was buried in a lead coffin. The investigators hoped that his remains would be sufficiently preserved to enable them to extract the bacterium. They got an exhumation order, but a major factor was that Sir Mark's family were very happy for it to go ahead (the present baronet said in the programme that his grandfather had been a very public-spirited man and if he could have approved, he would have!). Unfortunately, the coffin had spilt and they didn't get anything useful, but the point is clear.

I doubt whether the current Romanovs would present a sufficiently united front to override the general presumption against exhumation. Getting an exhumation of Georgy Alexandrovich was apparently pretty difficult.

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Ortipo on August 05, 2012, 02:32:06 PM
Thanks for the responses!
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 05, 2012, 02:47:08 PM
Thanks for the responses!

  You are very welcome, I'm certain!  Just a last recollection (with which I do not necessairly agree), a Russian friend commenting on this very topic some years ago in Russia, remarked, gesturing:  "There is Peter (III) and there is Paul (I).  They are duly consencrated and accepted Russian Emperors.  Let them be! "                                                         Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Hector on August 29, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
They did paternal DNA tests of the remains of Nicholas II right? Wouldn't that show he is an Oldenburg descendant or not?
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: DNAgenie on August 29, 2013, 04:14:34 PM
Quote
They did paternal DNA tests of the remains of Nicholas II right? Wouldn't that show he is an Oldenburg descendant or not?

No other male Oldenburg descendants have been tested for their Y-DNA so there is nothing to compare him with.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: LadyHezter on August 30, 2013, 09:21:45 AM
I read somewhere- Wikipedia, I Think, that Nicholas II-s Y haplogroup was predicted to be R1b. To my-(limited) -knowledge, R1b is more common in western Europe, than in the east- so it´s most likely, that Peter III was Pavel I-s father after all. Are  there any male descendants of the Saltykovs living today?
If there are-and they would be willing to test, that could answer some questions.

Regards,

Tamara

Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Hector on August 30, 2013, 10:51:10 PM
Quote
They did paternal DNA tests of the remains of Nicholas II right? Wouldn't that show he is an Oldenburg descendant or not?

No other male Oldenburg descendants have been tested for their Y-DNA so there is nothing to compare him with.
There are tons of male Oldenburg descendants. They used Prince Philip's mtDNA and he is a male-line Oldenburg descendant (he is direct male-line of King Frederick I of Denmark's younger son while Emperor Nicholas II is descended from male-line of his oldest son).
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Kalafrana on August 31, 2013, 01:23:52 PM
Prince Philp did assist in identifying Nicolas and family, and, of course, his sons are also male line Oldenburg descendants. But the Russians could be kinda reluctant to exhume Pavel!

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Hector on September 01, 2013, 10:47:16 PM
Prince Philp did assist in identifying Nicolas and family, and, of course, his sons are also male line Oldenburg descendants. But the Russians could be kinda reluctant to exhume Pavel!

Ann

Couldn't they just compare Y-DNA from Nicholas II to Prince Phillip without exhuming Emperor Paul? If they match, then Catherine the Great really was just trying to discredit her son's hereditary claim.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: DNAgenie on September 01, 2013, 11:41:10 PM
Quote
Couldn't they just compare Y-DNA from Nicholas II to Prince Phillip without exhuming Emperor Paul? If they match, then Catherine the Great really was just trying to discredit her son's hereditary claim.
 
Yes that could be done, IF anyone other than Prince Phillip knows what his Y-DNA results are. It is likely that Prince Charles and William and Harry have also been Y-DNA tested, but as no-one else knows the results, we cannot make the comparison.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Hector on September 02, 2013, 11:13:04 AM
Quote
Couldn't they just compare Y-DNA from Nicholas II to Prince Phillip without exhuming Emperor Paul? If they match, then Catherine the Great really was just trying to discredit her son's hereditary claim.
 
Yes that could be done, IF anyone other than Prince Phillip knows what his Y-DNA results are. It is likely that Prince Charles and William and Harry have also been Y-DNA tested, but as no-one else knows the results, we cannot make the comparison.
Doesn't seem like Prince Philip would let researchers use his mtDNA yet wouldn't let them use his Y-DNA.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Kalafrana on September 02, 2013, 12:55:41 PM
The Y DNA technique wasn't developed when the Pig's Meadow remains were originally tested, so unles there are suitable samples of Nicolas's or Alexei!s remains available, there would still need to be an exhumation. Perhaps it would be best to use Alexei, since his mains have yet to be required, and it is possible that the recent tests did include Y DNA.

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Inok Nikolai on September 02, 2013, 03:46:05 PM
The Y DNA technique wasn't developed when the Pig's Meadow remains were originally tested, so unles there are suitable samples of Nicolas's or Alexei!s remains available, there would still need to be an exhumation. Perhaps it would be best to use Alexei, since his mains have yet to be required, and it is possible that the recent tests did include Y DNA.

Ann

Vladimir Soloviev, Chief Procurator of Russia, who was assigned to this case and has conducted the criminal investigation for many years, has, on several occasions, stated that sufficient material was retained in order to conduct further tests in the future, if the need ever arose.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: DNAgenie on September 02, 2013, 05:09:02 PM
Quote
The Y DNA technique wasn't developed when the Pig's Meadow remains were originally tested, so unless there are suitable samples of Nicolas's or Alexei!s remains available, there would still need to be an exhumation. Perhaps it would be best to use Alexei, since his mains have yet to be required, and it is possible that the recent tests did include Y DNA.
Nicholas and Alexei's remains were tested for Y-DNA after Alexei's bones were discovered in 2007. The detailed Y-STR test results for the two of them (which matched)  allowed a prediction of haplogroup R1b to be made for their direct male line. The 17-marker STR profiles were compared with those of Alexei's fourth cousin Prince Andrew Andreevich Romanov and the matches were exact.

See the Coble et al (2009) paper at http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004838#pone-0004838-g003 for details.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Hector on September 02, 2013, 11:43:07 PM
So they already have Nicholas II's Y-DNA on record and there isn't a lack of Oldenburg males who aren't also descended through Emperor Paul like the surviving Romanov descendants.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Kalafrana on September 03, 2013, 03:00:27 AM
So we need another male-line Oldenburg descendant, one not descended from Pavel.

Incidentally, Alexei and Andrew Andreievich are fourth cousins in the male line, but first cousins once removed through Xenia.

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Storm.cloud on February 14, 2014, 02:14:32 AM
I've been reading about the Russian royals of the eighteenth century recently and am amazed at the number of people who say that Paul resembled his father Peter III.

Judging by the portraits, the two looked nothing alike.  Paul had a broad face, square head, eyes downturned at the outer corners and an unusual saddle nose.  Peter III had an oval face, small eyes, straight nose and pointed chin. In other words, the opposite facial appearance.

Of course, none of this is proof that Peter III was not Paul's biological father.  Paul would not be the first man in the history of the world who didn't resemble his father.

Similarly, Paul having had similar interests and preoccupations as Peter are not proof that he was his son.  Interests are not genetically passed on to ones offspring.  It seems to me that Paul consciously chose to be more like Peter III to spite his mother because of their dreadful mother-son relationship.

Only DNA testing will settle this argument.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: AGRBear on April 29, 2014, 01:02:08 PM
I've copied this from my own web site:

>>Was Peter III the father of Paul?

Rumor has attached the possible father as being Serge Saltikov.

It is believed that Catherine II "the Great" never disclosed the facts about Paul I's conception.

Due to the new discoveries through DNA, it appears that Saltikov's claim may be null and void. See the following information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historical_and_famous_figures#Rurik_of_Novgorod

which claims:
>>All Russian emperors from at least Nicholas I to Nicholas II "Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov"[edit]
The haplotype of Nicholas II of Russia has been predicted to belong to R1b.[36][37]

It matched a member of another line of Nicholas I's descendants. So, all the Emperors from Nicholas I to Nicholas II shared this Y-DNA. It can also be said that this result is German-specific, so Paul I was most likely the real son of his official father Peter III, and not the son of a lover, as was speculated.[citation. needed][dubious – discuss]

It also allowed to validate the remains of Alexei, son of Nicholas II.<<

>>...likely the real son of his official father Peter III...<< That may be an obvious leap. I think I'd say, Paul I's father was from a "German-specific" which covers a group rather than just Peter III.

Frederick II "the Great" was always plotting so who knows.

AGRBear

Read more: http://agrbear.hyperboards.com/action/view_topic/topic_id/962#ixzz30IZQmqYu<<

If this report is reliable: It is probably safe to say that Peter III is probably the father of Paul I unless someone can produce a possible candidate, who's background was the same or similar to Peter III's and was in contact with Catherine during the time of conception.
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on November 17, 2014, 02:52:55 PM
anyone know his last words
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Dru on November 17, 2014, 04:53:45 PM
anyone know his last words

According to "The Last Words of Great Men" by Rev. Thomas P. Hughes, as well as Alexander I: Emperor of Russia by H.E. Lloyd, Emperor Pavel's last words were in French: "Gentlemen, for heaven's sake, spare me!  Leave me time to pray to God!"  
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on November 24, 2014, 10:32:29 AM
Thanks 
Title: Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on November 24, 2014, 11:04:05 AM
anyone ever hear  the  Story of the  Army  Officer  who refused  a Carriage  ride  with  Paul I  and got demoted
Title: Tsar Paul I of Russsia strangest (Confirmed) Stories
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 25, 2015, 05:34:02 PM
Anyone know any  off the wall  Stories   about  him  I Have heard he made people  salute The  Winter Palace 
and  he demoted an Officer  for refusing a ride in His Carriage     are these  reports   factual