Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hohenzollern => Topic started by: Janet_W. on April 22, 2004, 10:53:56 PM

Title: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Janet_W. on April 22, 2004, 10:53:56 PM
I believe Alix's Aunt Victoria was at times a bit exasperated with her. I'd have to find the exact passages, though.  Possibly a personality clash, and  I seem to remember that Alix's willfulness challenged her Aunt Vicky!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Lisa on May 05, 2004, 03:43:50 AM
Dear Thomas,
you can find a lots information about Victoria (it's in German)

http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/literatur.html
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RomanovFan on June 23, 2004, 05:48:09 PM
I never really understood the relationship between Victoria, Princess Royal and Alix. I've read bits and peices about it in books but I'm still a little confused... ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on June 23, 2004, 11:17:12 PM
Quote
I never really understood the relationship between Victoria, Princess Royal and Alix. I've read bits and peices about it in books but I'm still a little confused... ???



She could be a little blunt and critical of Alix, and Ella. She says in letters to her daughter Sophie that she much prefers Victoria & Maud of Wales--they're so much prettier (!) more graceful, natural, clever, etc....and also the looks of Victoria & Marie of Edinburgh. OTOH, she writes very sympathetically about Alicky at the time of her father's death and the blow it must've dealt and how alone she and Ernie must feel in the great Schloss. She seems to have been very fond of Nicholas and rather exasperated by Alix's waffling but says she could tell by the look on her face when Nicky arrived at the Coburg wedding that she KNEW she would accept him (I found that romantic). She also expresses sympathy for Alix's position in Russia (though she says it's better than being 2nd to Ducky in Darmstadt) and for her inability to produce the longed-for heir.  All in all, there seems a rather exasperated fondness for her--she often speaks critically but then fondly, much the way relatives often do. It seems to be a trait picked up from Queen Victoria!  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Sunny on July 02, 2004, 10:14:08 PM
I really enjoyed Hannah Pakula's biography of Vicky.
As much as Victoria's Daughters was a page turner,
it seemed that the only times Jerrold Packer had  sympathy for Vicky was when writing of the deaths of Sigi, and Waldemar...

Sunny
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 02, 2004, 11:06:19 PM
Quote
I really enjoyed Hannah Pakula's biography of Vicky.
As much as Victoria's Daughters was a page turner,
it seemed that the only times Jerrold Packer had  sympathy for Vicky was when writing of the deaths of Sigi, and Waldemar...

Sunny


Hannah Pakula is the best! I also love her Missy of Romania bio. I wish she would write more since the really insightful royal biographers seem few and far between now. I wonder if her husband's death threw her off of writing?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Janet_W. on July 02, 2004, 11:19:20 PM
Good question. I agree with you, she is a marvelous biographer. Her husband's death was shocking, and I felt so awful about it . . . both because he was a marvelous creative force himself, and also because it seemed, after reading her bio of Marie of Romania, as if I'd gotten to know a little bit about Hannah Pakula as well.   :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Lisa on July 12, 2004, 03:34:32 PM
Victoria and her husband Frederic III

(http://www.worldwar1.com/photos/kaispar.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Lisa on July 12, 2004, 03:46:26 PM
In 1874 by Angeli

(http://www.preussen.de/Bilder/Geschichte/friedrich_III./kaiserin_friedrich_2_MB.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Lisa on July 12, 2004, 03:49:35 PM
Again by von Angeli

(http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/pics/p557.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Ilana on July 12, 2004, 06:10:20 PM
I've been to Kronberg and it's beautiful.  If you arrange it in advance, you can have a tour of Vicky's private rooms.  I and my friends were shown her bedroom, and a bedroom used by Willy, as well as sitting rooms, where some of Vicky's paintings were hung. The bathrooms were comparatively modern, and you can actually sleep in Vicky's bedroom, however, as you can imagine, it's extremely expensive.  Don't expect the guide to be conversant in the history of the place, he showed us many photos which he mis-identified (we kept our mouths shut, afterall, they were showing us hospitality!). The grounds are gorgeous, but because it's a hotel there are golf links and places you're not supposed to walk.  We did take shots of the famous steps where Vicky, her children and grandchildren were photographed. As we had lunch there (unbelievably exquisite and worth every Euro), we were allowed to look around.  It's very homey for a castle, and I understand why Vicky liked it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Sunny on July 12, 2004, 09:05:46 PM
Thomas, I so appreciate the lovely photograph of Vicky.
That was such a sad, and painful time in her life. It is beyond belief that under the guise of "lengthening" her life, proper amounts of morphine were withheld to the point of her screaming for hours during her final days.
Lisa, you always post such luminous beauties...thank you.
Ilana, what a wonderful trip. Maybe your picture on the steps can be posted?

Sunny
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Lisa on July 14, 2004, 02:00:51 PM
Frederic III by von Angeli:

(http://www.preussen.de/Bilder/Geschichte/friedrich_III./friedrich_III_1_MB.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Martyn on July 22, 2004, 08:04:48 AM
Ilana, it is good to know that Friedrichshof is still beautiful and being looked after.  I'm glad that its heritage is being respected  and remembered even though it is now a hotel.
I'm pretty sure that Friedrichshof suffered some damage at the end of WW2 when it was occupied by US troops and that Vicky's jewellery, which had been hidden there by one of her daughters(?) was discovered and illegally removed to the US.  Anyone know if this is correct and whether  the jewels were returned to their rightful owners?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 22, 2004, 10:52:20 AM
It certainly is true, unfortunately. The home was occupied by her youngest child, Margaret, who inherited it and was in possession of a good bit of her late mother's jewellry. Upon the occupation of Germany, the home was used as a HQ. Apparently, a female soldier and 2 male soldiers came across the jewellry in the basement (?) and absconded with it. It was smuggled or attempted and the perpetrators were busted and tried. Unfortunately, part of the collection remains unaccounted for, those the majority, I believe, was returned to the Hesse family. I'll try to find out more.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 22, 2004, 08:39:53 PM
Here is some additional info gleaned from the internet:

The best known case of looting by American personnel was the theft of the Hesse Crown Jewels. The primary instigator of the theft was Captain Kathleen Nash. Nash, Major David Watson and Colonel Jack Durant, Nash’s lover, found a fresh patch of concrete in the cellar as they were exploring the castle. They chipped through the concrete and found zinc lined boxes full of jewels. The trio removed the jewels from the tiaras, bracelets, etc and sold them in Switzerland. In late 1945, the trio returned to the United States. In addition to the jewels and gold, the trio had looted silverware, books, and hundreds of other items. In January 1946, the jewels were reported missing by a member of the Hesse family. The Army’s Criminal Intelligence Division determined the extent of the theft and soon arrested the trio. Durant married Nash so she would not be allowed to testify against him. Watson was sentenced to three years in prison but was released after four months. His family owned a large West Coast grocery store chain that apparently had connections to people in power. Durant was sentenced to fifteen years and released after six years. Nash however, was described as a difficult prisoner and served her entire sentence of five years. About one half of the jewels had been mailed to Nash’s sister.


The Hesse Crown jewels were discovered by an American soldier and a civilian in November 1945 in a castle used by Allied soldiers. The two turned the jewels over to the soldier's company commander, Capt. Kathleen Nash, after which the jewels disappeared. After an extensive investigation, Capt. Nash and another officer were convicted of smuggling the valuables out of the American Occupational Zone. In 1951, the collection of 270 diamonds and other jewels was returned to the Hesse family.

The Americans prosecuted a theft in the millions by a U.S. welfare officer, Captain Kathleen Nash and Colonel James Durant, from the castle that the Army was using as a recreation club. The army had requisitioned the Hesse family home and castle, driving the family elsewhere. The jewels were discovered although they had been well hidden, in a welded-shut metal box behind brick and mortar, and the officers thought that the Hesse family were just a bunch of Nazis anyway and why not take their share of victor's loot. 60
60. A video tape on this (Secret Plunder -- GI Loooters) is available at The History Channel.

As a result of the increased attention given to its public image after World War II, the Corps suffered few ignominious incidents like the one that occurred in 1946-the court-martial of Capt. Kathleen Nash Durant, her husband, and several others in Germany for the theft of the royal jewels of the House of Hesse from Kronberg Castle in Frankfurt. Most of the jewels, valued at over a million dollars, were recovered, and Durant was found guilty of larceny, dishonorably discharged, and sentenced to serve five years at hard labor at the Federal Reformatory for Women in Alderson, West Virginia. She was paroled on good behavior in 1949
10 History of the Second Year of the Occupation Forces in Europe, 1 Jul 46-30 Jun 47, Office, Chief of History, European Command, p. 26, CMH Ref Br; New York Times, 29 Jul 49, p. 1.

One website had a picture with the following caption:
In February 1947, the 709th MP Battalion provided an escort detail to accompany the evidence that was collected in Germany during the investigation of the theft of the Hesse Crown jewels. The evidence was transferred to the US for the trial. The photo to the left appears to show members of the 709th MP Battalion carrying a crate of evidence relating to the Hesse Crown Jewels Robbery from an Air Transport Command aircraft at Bolling Field, Washington DC. (Acme News Photograph, February 3, 1947.)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 23, 2004, 11:01:13 AM
Thanks for the clarification Thomas. I had just posted what I'd seen online-I should've read more carefully.  :-[  But then we all know what we read on the Internet is correct, right? LOL I think the problem is most information was gleaned from contemporaneous accounts and certain facts might've been erroneous (ie the majority of jewels recovered) and the info just wasn't double-checked.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Lisa on August 02, 2004, 05:55:17 AM
A book which is certainly very unteresting

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0750930527/qid=1091444083/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-0829538-6220622?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RomanovFan on August 04, 2004, 06:27:27 PM
Did any of Victoria and Freidrich's 8 children (besides Kaiser Wilhelm II) become rulers of a country?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2004, 07:39:55 PM
Of the sons, no. But 2 died very young Didn't they? Ages2 & 11 I think. Of the daughters, Sophie became Queen Consort of Greece [Consyantine ].
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 04, 2004, 09:44:49 PM
Quote
Of the sons, no. But 2 died very young Didn't they? Ages2 & 11 I think. Of the daughters, Sophie became Queen Consort of Greece [Consyantine ].
Best,
Robert


And Margaret almost became Queen of Finland. When they broke off from Russia, they offered her husband the throne but he wanted to wait for a vote by the people who ultimately decided to go with a Republic.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 05, 2004, 10:48:06 AM
Quote
Remembering today especially the good Kaiserin Friedrich - August 1901+

Especially in light of the suffering she endured--emotional (loss of 2 sons and a beloved husband to a cruel disease; estrangement from her elder children; vilified in Berlin; loss of her dreams of she & Fritz creating a more liberal Germany) and physical (the horrific cancer which finally killed her as well as many other serious ailment throughout her life). Through it all, she never lost her faith, her thirst for knowledge and culture, her love of travel, her keen interest in life and was blessed with a handsome, loving husband whose devotion and fidelity never wavered throughout 30 years of marriage,  3 younger daughters who she adored and was adored in return and many grandchildren. In the end, she was at least reunited with her 'beloved Fritz' as well as spared the ordeal of England and Germany at war with her eldest son denounced as a war criminal, the further calumnies heaped upon her in biased books for years after her death and who is know being recognized (thank you Hannah Pakula!) for the fascinating, complex, cultured, brilliant woman she was.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/va222.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/vicky0.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 12, 2004, 09:01:48 AM
I am trying to find a colour reproduction of Vicki & Fritz's wedding at Windsor, as painted by John Phillip.
Anyone know wheri that might be?
If it was in grandduchess ella's last post here, sorry, none of those pictures showed up for me-drat- that happens sometimes on my pc, & I have no idea why. It seems totally random as to which pics this pc will reproduce & which not !!
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2004, 03:34:25 PM
My husband and I stayed in the Kronberg Castle-Hotel [Friedrichshof] and it was marvelous.

I have other photographs of this castle built by the widow of Frederick II, King of Prussia and German Emperor, mother of Willliam II.    The little pamplet found with the stationary tells us: "....This house designed by her, embellished by her, marks her disappearace from the broad stream of German life;  it is a monument to her husband and a reminder of the world which they had together hoped to create.

"The Empress lived for seven year after Friedrichshof was finished ...."

She died here on 5 Aug 1901.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Martyn on August 16, 2004, 11:03:43 AM
Lovely photos of Friedrichshof.  It really is quite beautiful and a fitting tribute to Fritz and Vicky.
I have just reread Jerrold Packard's book "Victoria's Daughters" and had quite forgotten how difficult Vicky's life really was in Prussia.
I think that Grandduchessella's comments about Vicky were entirely apposite and I think that the tragedy for her and Fritz is that they didn't have a chance to make a difference.  No one expected the old Emperor to live as long as he actually did.
Albert and Victoria expected that an English princess imbued with the liberal principles of her parents would have a huge liberalising influence at the Prussian court; instead Vicky was marginalised and denigrated and her and Fritz's liberal principles wre igored and ridiculed by Bismarck and Willy.
There really is no point in speculating as to waht might have been if Fritz had come to the throne earlier, but one can't help but wonder..........
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 16, 2004, 11:21:11 AM
Although it was an extremely brief reign, were thare any official state portraits made of them [F&V] as Emperor & Empress ?
Also, any formal funeral paintings.
I may have just not looked for them in the right places, but I have not found any.
Thanks,
Robert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2004, 12:26:35 AM
Quote
Although it was an extremely brief reign, were thare any official state portraits made of them [F&V] as Emperor & Empress ?
Also, any formal funeral paintings.
I may have just not looked for them in the right places, but I have not found any.
Thanks,
Robert


I don't think there were any formal portraits made since he was so ill at that point--he may not have been up to even a photographic session and probably a portrait would've been out of the question. I've seen some photographs that maybe of the ceremony, I'll have to check. They're certainly not clear if they are (too wide or far). There were some sketches published I think. Coming so soon on the heels of Wilhelm I's state funeral, Fritz got sort of the short-shrift funeral wise (maybe by his own-wish, I don't know) but it was pretty quiet.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Martyn on August 18, 2004, 06:24:28 AM
In Jerrold Packard's "Victoria's Daughters" he recounts Vicky and Fritz's visit to England for the Golden Jubilee in 1887.
Fritz was very ill at this time but he made a superhuman effort to take part in the celebrations; this fact was picked up by the press and the public and he was much admired for his courage and for the effort that he had made to honour his mother-in-law.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2004, 10:08:15 AM
Quote
In Jerrold Packard's "Victoria's Daughters" he recounts Vicky and Fritz's visit to England for the Golden Jubilee in 1887.
Fritz was very ill at this time but he made a superhuman effort to take part in the celebrations; this fact was picked up by the press and the public and he was much admired for his courage and for the effort that he had made to honour his mother-in-law.


That story always make me tear up. I love Fritz.  :'( Queen Alexandra who rarely had anything good to say about Prussians (though she did like Fritz & Vicky) commented on how dashing and brave he was. He also apparently received some of the loudest cheers riding in the parade with his glistening silver breastplate and white uniform and noble bearing. He seemed Lohengrin come to life. Also the story about how he went to Henry & Irene's wedding even though he could barely stand at the time (some reports had him wheeled in, others that he walked in). Regardless of how he got there, the photo of the wedding shows him standing next to Vicky looking so handsome and noble. Bismark's son Herbert made the remark on that occasion that a monarch who couldn't speak shouldn't rule and the Prince of Wales (who was close to Fritz) wrote that he wanted to toss him out bodily but didn't because of foreign relations (and probably not to embarass his proud brother-in-law). Go Bertie!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on August 18, 2004, 12:20:33 PM
Do you happen to have a picture of the wedding of Irene and Henry?  I am sure more than I would enjoy seeing it!  ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Martyn on August 18, 2004, 12:44:30 PM
Queen Victoria adored Fritz and I think that he was very fond of her.
Am I right in thinking that he could be a bit of a snob, particularly about the Battenbergs?  I know that he did try to back Vicky with Moretta's desperate wish to marry Sandro, but I am sure that he wasn't keen on Beatrice marrying Liko.............( Could be wrong - usually am...)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2004, 07:00:29 PM
Fritz could be a bit of a snob, but considering he was a Hohenzollern, he was a model of enlightenment. QV was put out by his attitude towards the Beatrice/Henry marriage--I forget her exact quote, but it was a pretty scathing smack. He did support Moretta's marriage later on to Sandro, but probably due to Vicky's influence over him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Martyn on August 19, 2004, 09:56:51 AM
Just to go back to Fritz a moment.  Rereading  the "Louis and Victoria" ( a bit too deferential for my taste), I have just got to Louis and Victoria's betrothal and it would seem that Fritz and the rest of the Hohenzollerns were against the match due to the inequality in status.  The only people who were really in favour of it appear to have been Bertie, who loved Louis and Q.Victoria who loved Victoria and was fond of Louis.
I suppose Fritz was enlightened compared to the rest of the Junker minded Hohenzollern, but I must admit to being surprised about his attitudes towards the Battenbergs.
Vicky seems to have been just like her mother and adored a love match...................
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Karentje on September 25, 2004, 03:31:42 AM
I just read on the forum that some people believe that Vicky, Queen Victoria's eldest daughter, suffered from porphyria. I was very much surprised at this information. I admire Vicky immensely and I have read quite a lot about her, but I never came accross anything that would imply that she suffered from porphyria. Or else I don't remember, though I'm sure information like that would stick. Could anyone please tell me more about this or tell me where I could find reliable information on the subject?
I'd be ever so grateful!

Karentje
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Annushka on September 25, 2004, 10:06:53 AM
I saw that, too. In the reading that I have doen so far on Vicky I have not seen anything to suggest it either.  Does anyone know where this idea came from and why they feel it may be true?

Holly
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on September 25, 2004, 12:35:51 PM
The book Purple Secret by John Rohl is all about this subject. It goes through various illness and medical complaints (physical & mental) that Vicky, Charlotte and Feodora suffered throughout their lives--and it's quite a litany. These forms the basis of the theory of porphyria based on the symptoms, etc...They exhumed Charlotte's body but it's been awhile since I read the book so I can't remember what tests were done and the result. I'll try and find the book. Rohl and colleagues commissioned DNA analysis on Charlotte’s bones and discovered an error in her genetic code (& possibly Feodora’s) and concluded that this error could’ve possibly been related to her symptoms. I’m not a scientists so I started to get a little lost in some of the DNA discussions though. It had quite a lot of medical jargon in it. Some of the symptoms recited on behalf of all 3 women are just wince-inducing. It’s about the only thing I ever saw that made me feel sorry for Charlotte (and may in fact have contributed in part to her behavior). Feo is the saddest story though. In addition to her horrible upbringing, she suffered many physical ailments and later spent time in and out of institutions. She eventually committed suicide by placing her head in an over in 1945. She had no children so the trail basically ends there. There has also been some speculation about other descendants of QV suffering (including her son Alfred and daughters Alice & Louise and even Empress Alexandra).  It’s based on anecdotal evidence though and no physical tests have been done to back it up.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Annushka on September 25, 2004, 08:08:50 PM
What about Vicky's son Willy?  He was definitely strange mentally.  of any of the family, I would vote for him to have Porphiria.

Holly
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Karentje on September 26, 2004, 04:25:38 AM
Willy was quite a stranger character indeed  ;), I don't know if he had porphyria, but I think he's a far likelier candidate than his mother! He had his own rather strange vision of himself and the world, which resulted in a complete denial of reality - especially when reality made him look bad :P
The breakdowns Willy had also remind me of those his great-uncle, George IV, suffered from too. And there is reason enough to suppose the 'Prince of Pleasure' had porphyria.
Whether Willy had porphyria or not, he sure had issues, one has only to read some of the letters he wrote his mother during his puberty:

"I have again dreamt about you, this time I was alone with you in your library, when you stretched forth your arms & pulled me lower to your chair so that my head rested on your left arm. Then you took off your gloves...& laid your hand gently on my lips, for me to kiss it. [...]In 8 days we will come to Berlin & then what I dreamt about we will do in reality when we are alone in your rooms without any witnesses."

Willy apparently had some trouble dreaming about his mother in a solely platonic manner.

Karentje
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Olga on September 26, 2004, 08:08:14 AM
Quote
It goes through various illness and medical complaints (physical & mental) that Vicky, Charlotte and Feodora suffered throughout their lives--and it's quite a litany. Some of the symptoms recited on behalf of all 3 women are just wince-inducing. .


What sort of symptoms were they?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Louise on September 26, 2004, 08:48:55 AM
While Willie was arrogant, willful,  and had what may be considered delusions of grandeur (probably not in the clinical sense) I don't believe that he suffered from porphyria. I can't recall a single statement or have I read anything on him that would indicate that. With the propaganda floating around during and after the war about him, I'm sure that would have been floated out if there had been any iota of truth.

Here is a quick link to a site on porphyria, so that people can get a better understanding of what the disease entailed.

http://www.porphyriafoundation.com/about_por/index.html


Louise
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Annushka on September 26, 2004, 09:50:07 AM
I do think that Willy seems more likely than Vicky to have suffered from the disease.  But, his problems could also have stemmed from brain damage from his difficult birth.  

Holly
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: AGRBear on September 26, 2004, 06:18:50 PM
Which symtoms do you think were Empress Frederick's:
"confusion, hallucinations and / or seizures" ?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: MarquisAnthony on September 28, 2004, 09:46:22 AM
Charlotte definitely suffered from the illness. Willy just had a bratty personality. Although I did read in Victoria's Daughters Karentje's quote and find it disturbing, I still feel as though several of his negative traits were personality defects ;)

Has their ever been any question as to whether or not QV's hibernation after Albert's death as being a form of the disease? Her intense desire to hide from the public and face2face interraction with the gov't ie - her not opening Parliment for years after his death.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Annushka on September 28, 2004, 09:51:34 AM
I can't agree with you on Willy just being bratty.  I think there was a definite mental illness there.  But, from Porphiria, brain damage, I just don't know.

You have a very good point on QV,  going into hibernation for so many years is abnormal.  Almost like agoraphobia.  Particularly the part about not wanting people to look at her.

Holly
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Jim1026 on September 28, 2004, 03:50:40 PM
Quote
Charlotte definitely suffered from the illness. Willy just had a bratty personality. Although I did read in Victoria's Daughters Karentje's quote and find it disturbing, I still feel as though several of his negative traits were personality defects ;)
It seems that Queen Victoria suffered a rather sever nervous breakdown after Prince Alberts death.  She was so shaken by this it took sometime for her to recover.  Also remember she was still suffering from her mother's death the Duchess of Kent earlier that year.  And if you read accounts of her behaviour during that time it appears she had a possible breakdown there.  So Her Majesty was an emotional mess.  No disrespect
intended.
Has their ever been any question as to whether or not QV's hibernation after Albert's death as being a form of the disease? Her intense desire to hide from the public and face2face interraction with the gov't ie - her not opening Parliment for years after his death.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: AGRBear on September 29, 2004, 04:05:33 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/Friederikshof/Indoor1.jpg)


After entering the front door of the castle, you turn to your left and this is the view of the room you will see.

And,  this is my first attempt of adding a photo to this forum.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Sushismom on October 05, 2004, 12:58:51 PM
Thanks to everyone for the marvelous pictures! They bring to life what I've only read in books.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on October 05, 2004, 02:48:37 PM
Since this is a historical house, are there any of the Empress' personal rooms that were conserved, such as her bedroom?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 05, 2004, 05:45:54 PM
You can apparently take a tour through the hotel so it seems to indicate that at least some of the rooms are preserved. Many of the public rooms still contain many of EF's antiques, books and artwork (many done by herself).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on October 07, 2004, 08:37:22 PM
I have stayed at Kronberg several times.  I last visited this past June and I highly recommend the experience.

High tea in the Empress' library is a wonderful thing to do...walking through the halls and admiring the portraits is an even better experience.  Certaily well worth the visit.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 09, 2004, 12:11:46 PM
Empress Frederick felt that Alice and her children were in need of her assistance in many ways. I think Vicky, on rare occasion, felt somewhat put-out by this, but all in all was very generous with money and emotional support. Vicky gave great effort to seeing that her children and their cousins had a good relationship and were together frequently. In so doing, Vicky was attentive and "Motherly" to Alice's children. Queen Victoria had a special spot in her heart of Alix, so this may, repeat may, have caused Vicky some level of jealous distance, but no such evidence exists, I believe.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 09, 2004, 12:23:58 PM
I also have had the opportunity to stay at Kronberg. Fabulous place and full of history. The Kaiser's bedroom in essentially in tact and original form (Vicky had a special room for him when he visited). One of the best dining experiences in all of Europe! Some histories imply Vicky built the castle in English style to remind her of "home". But, this is not the case. The architecture is mostly German with some aspects of English country estates. Since the wars, much German art, design, architecture, etc., has been categorized as English, but in fact style of Kronberg is classic German.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on October 10, 2004, 01:21:24 PM
Some of the funds used to build Friedrichshof came from an inheritance left to the Empress Friedrich by a very rich friend, the Dowager Duchess of Galliera, who also left considerable property to the descendants of Infanta Eulalia of Spain.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: AGRBear on October 11, 2004, 08:13:45 PM
Reading the various definitions of porphyia,  I saw any number of symtoms which could related to other mental problems.  Let me ask, again,  what symtoms did Empress Frederick have which makes some of you think that she suffered from porphyria.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Karentje on October 12, 2004, 06:18:01 AM
Hello AGRBear

I can't help you with this, since I don't believe Vicky had porphyria, but like you I am also curious why others do believe it. Since I am no expert on the Empress's health, and therefore may be mistaken in my convictions, I am very interested in learning more.
If anyone knows more about Vicky's alleged porphyria, please share your knowledge!

Karentje


Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: AGRBear on October 27, 2004, 03:46:02 PM
For those of us who are all out of cash after buying other books suggested on the various threads,  can you give us just a brief sketch of Empress Frederick's mental state which makes some of you think she had porphyria?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on October 30, 2004, 10:30:16 AM
At Friedrichshof and Burg Hohenzollern the visitor can see, ney admire, some of the wonderful paintings authored by the Empress Friedrich of her immediate family...she was sooo talented.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2004, 12:31:14 PM
Yes, Vicky was a very talented painter, sketcher, and water colorist. My favorite is her piece depicting the misery of the crimean war. It is stunning in its emotion, compassion, and realism. Was she ever professionally schooled in the fine arts?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 01:53:04 PM
I don't think she was ever as professionally trained as her sister Louise who as an adult worked with noted artists of the day. However, both QV and PA enjoyed the arts and possessed a good level of talent. They instilled this in their children and it was fostered through various tutors. All of the children (save maybe Edward VII who nonetheless possessed a good eye for design and arrangement) had some level of talent in one art form or the other--painting, sculpture, music.

Charlotte (Charly)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/lein116a.jpg)

Victoria (Moretta):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/va234a.jpg)

Waldemar (Waldy):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/va235a.jpg)

Margaret (Mossy):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/va234c.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 30, 2004, 03:30:51 PM
I wonder if there was ever a similar painting done of Sophie. All of Vicky's other younger children are depicted. I have never seen one of Sophie though.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on October 30, 2004, 04:37:23 PM
Yes she did...and the originals can be seen at Burg Hohenzollern and/or Friedrichshof.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2004, 04:40:47 PM
It is hard to believe, but true, that Vicky was the artist. She was such a grand lady and empress in every way! In the portrait of little Waldemar, he looks sooooo much like his mother.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 05:14:43 PM
Quote
I wonder if there was ever a similar painting done of Sophie. All of Vicky's other younger children are depicted. I have never seen one of Sophie though.


Yes, Vicky painted them all. I've never seen one of Sophie, William or Henry from this sitting, though I have seen one of Henry in his naval uniform. I was going to post it but have to convert it from .bmp. Vicky was also a talented sculptor and at sketching.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 30, 2004, 06:15:02 PM
Are you reffering to the painting of Henry in "An Uncommon Women" I have the book but it is at home or I would scan it and put it up. Or are you reffering to another one?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 10:11:46 PM
Quote
Are you reffering to the painting of Henry in "An Uncommon Women" I have the book but it is at home or I would scan it and put it up. Or are you reffering to another one?


I haven't looked at my copy in awhile but this is the one I referred to:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/expo03a.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 31, 2004, 01:28:03 AM
Yes it is the one from the book but the one in the book is not in color I don't think ( My copy is at home) I really love this painting and the others as well esp. the one of Moretta.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: vickyandfritz on November 11, 2004, 09:13:14 PM
I am not convinced Vicky had porphyria. In 1862 when visiting Strelitz to look over the 'Danish Princess' she tells her mother that she is ashamed of her face which is red and blotchy. There are further similar reports over the years and regular mention of neuralgia pain. I recollect she took quinine for a number of years until she found it disagreed with her. I have a feeling that it was not pophyria that caused her face to go blotchy but an increasing and painful reaction to quinine.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 11, 2004, 09:27:27 PM
Welcome to the board vickyandfritz. You seem pretty knowledgable. You should fit right in with the rest of us here.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 11, 2004, 10:12:42 PM
Quote
I am not convinced Vicky had porphyria. In 1862 when visiting Strelitz to look over the 'Danish Princess' she tells her mother that she is ashamed of her face which is red and blotchy. There are further similar reports over the years and regular mention of neuralgia pain. I recollect she took quinine for a number of years until she found it disagreed with her. I have a feeling that it was not pophyria that caused her face to go blotchy but an increasing and painful reaction to quinine.


Hi and welcome! I was looking this all up in Vicky bios and most especially Purple Secret which is all about porphyria in the royal family. I don't think they proved that Vicky had it though there were a lot more symptoms than just the blotchy face. It seems to have been a litany of assorted ailments stretching out basically her whole life. The authors attribute a lot of her mood swings, depressive states and lack of judgment on certain occasions where she was carried away by emotion and lacked impulse control to the possibility of porphyria. For some reason, I just can't wrap my brain around the whole issue--there's a lot of scientific data in the book and history, not science, was my college major!  :) It seems pretty certain that Charlotte (her daughter) had it and that is also used as circumstantial evidence in building the case for Vicky. That seems to be the story though--a lot of anecdotal evidence and correlation doesn't mean causation though. I'll try and dig up some good quotes from the book.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 11, 2004, 11:35:37 PM
You say you were a history major ella. Me too.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 11, 2004, 11:59:27 PM
Quote
You say you were a history major ella. Me too.


Probably why we gravitate to sites like this.  ;)  :)  I received my BA in History back in 1995 (I double-majored in English) and I've been sloooowly working my way towards law school by taking pre-law classes (not easy when the Air Force keeps moving hubby!)

Some more info on porphyria:
Environmental triggers are important in many attacks of porphyria. These triggers include certain medications (which could involve Vicky ala the quinine), fasting, or hormonal changes (some of her worst outbreaks of suspicious behaviors seem to spike at the times in her life which involved pregnancy or menopause). Genetic carriers who avoid a triggering exposure may never experience symptoms (so Charlotte could've had it while Vicky was just a carrier ala hemophilia).  The cutaneous porphyrias cause sun sensitivity (which V apparently suffered from horribly), with blistering typically on the face, back of the hands, and other sun-exposed areas. The acute porphyrias typically cause abdominal pain (again which V had to a strong degree) and nausea. Some patients have personality changes (the writers quote her almost-manic switches in behavior often w/in the course of one letter) and seizures at the outset. With time the illness can involve weakness in many different muscles (she would also come to complain about this). So that's a rough look at the disease with my editorial comments. I'm no scientists so I can only say that while Vicky had a LOT of symptoms over decades that matched those of porphyria, they could also be attributed to other factors. It's the totality of the evidence that I think caused the authors of Purple Secret to draw their positive conclusion. Since a lot of physical evidence today rests on the color of the urine and that isn't exactly documented too throughly on Vicky's side (that I know of!) it would be hard to draw a definite conclusion since I don't think there are any plans afoot to run DNA tests on her. Empress Alexandra, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Empress Carlota of Mexico (Charlotte of Belgium) have also had the disease attributed to them.


Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: vickyandfritz on November 12, 2004, 08:27:17 AM
Quote
Welcome to the board vickyandfritz. You seem pretty knowledgable. You should fit right in with the rest of us here.


Hi Group,

I'm from England but currently on holiday in Florida till Christmas. My credentials for joining you are that for my own information, I wrote a diary of her movements between February 1858 and December 1863. This task took me 10 years!

I can tell you that Vicky and Fritz are resting in peace in their mausoleum in Potsdam but I was unable to leave any flowers there in May of this year because the entrance gate was locked.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 28, 2004, 10:44:27 AM
Vicky's paintings of her children are ever so good. She must have been one of the most capable artists among the greater European royalty.

Why did Vicky not try harder to get her children to marry more "important" mates, thereby continuing in her parents' strategy of unifying the leading ruling families of England and Europe? Seems like the only one who had a chance at some significant influence was Sophie who became queen of Greece.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Agneschen on November 28, 2004, 01:30:10 PM
Vicky actually hoped that her 3 younger daughters would become respectively queens of Greece, Bulgaria (through the Moretta / Sandro Battenberg wedding) and Romania. Her aim was to fulfill her father's dream and help expand the so-called "good Coburg influence" to central Europa. She saw this as a chance of uniting western and central european powers against autocratic Russia.  This was not to be.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 28, 2004, 06:35:57 PM
I don't know how much of it was Vicky's ambition, but Margaret (Mossy) was also talked of for Eddy (so Queen of Great Britain) and for Nicholas II (so Empress of Russia). I don't think she would've ever married them off if they didn't care for the prospective groom though . In a way, Mossy became 'Queen' when her husband was temporarily chosen as King of Finland in 1918.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 28, 2004, 07:23:35 PM
As a wife:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/10049025a.jpg)



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/expo19s.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 28, 2004, 07:27:46 PM
Later years:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/kaiserin_friedrich_3_MB.jpg)
I think are about 5-6 poses from this sitting. There was also a portrait based on it:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/10049021a.jpg)

And in her final resting spot next to her beloved Fritz:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/Friedrich_III_und_Victoria1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 29, 2004, 11:58:53 AM
Interesting that Vicky and Fritzes tombs appear to be more ornate that QV and Albert.

Was Vicky, during the last 12 years of her life after Fritz had died, committed to being a full-blown German? Or did she yearn for her native England? I know she moved to Kronberg to get out of the Berlin nest of hornets, but I have found no evidence that she was anything other than happy to live her life in Germany.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 29, 2004, 01:17:24 PM
I don't think Vicky could ever be called a full-blown German, as hard as she tried.  It has been said that when in England she was passionately German, and vice versa when in Germany.  As much I admire her, they were too many directions in which she was pulled, especially by her parents, when she was told to never forget that she was an English princess, which ultimately worked against her.

Vicky did, however, toy with the idea of returning to England permanently after Fritz' death.  On her first trip back, when laughter and smiles began to escape mourning, she thought of seriously settling down in England (this was before the creation of Friedrichshof).  She knew, of course, that in remaining in Germany, she could do what was able to be done to preserve Fritz' memory and to further his ambitions.

I have never read that Vicky wanted her three youngest daughters to become queens of those countries......is that in a book?  I have four books on Vicky and none of those cover that topic.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Agneschen on November 29, 2004, 01:51:50 PM
Vicky's wish to see her 3 younger daughters as queens of Bulgaria, Roumania and Greece is briefly mentionned in R. Giardina's L'Ascesa dei Coburgo alla Conquista d'Europa and more extansively in Die Jugend des Kaisers by Röhl in which letters Vicky wrote on that subject are quoted. Tell me if you want me to post the actual passage but it is in german.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 29, 2004, 01:57:11 PM
No need to post.....I can't read German anyways.  I was just curious as I wanted to make sure I hadn't read over it in my own books.  Danke, Agneschen!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 30, 2004, 10:25:19 AM
(http://www.library.uq.edu.au/fryer/hume/web/hume715.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 30, 2004, 12:06:52 PM
This is a terrific image of Vicky, jfkhaos! I am always curious about the jewelry she wears in her photos and paintings. Does the jewelry remain in a German museum or has it been sold off or lost?

Also, did Vicky use the German language most frequently and preferbably?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 30, 2004, 12:24:03 PM
From everything I have read, Vicky's jewelry was divided amongst her children, maybe even other relatives.  As for the robes, they too were probably left to someone in her will, but as I am not an expert, I cannot determine.  I wish it were possible to view a copy of her will.....

I believe Vicky did communicate in German the majority of time...can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jehan on November 30, 2004, 12:48:12 PM
Quote
F

I believe Vicky did communicate in German the majority of time...can anyone confirm?


Her letters to her mother and the British family were all in English.
I would imagine that she wrote to any German family members in German, but have not seen any examples of such correspondance.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 30, 2004, 02:01:12 PM
Vicky was titled "princess royal". Was this title created by QV for Vicky?

And, when Vicky became Crown Princess of Prussia, then Germany, did her official title include both English and German titles?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 30, 2004, 02:26:15 PM
The title Princess Royal had been around for many years before Vicky. I can not remember what Kings daughter was the first Princess Royal but I think it was around the time of the Stuarts.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 30, 2004, 02:30:07 PM
Here is a link from Wikipedia that gives some explanation on the title Princess Royal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Royal

There have been seven total; Vicky was the fourth.  The first Princess Royal was the daughter of Charles I.  When Vicky married, she was known as Princess Frederick William of Prussia, Princess Royal of England.  She always kept the Princess Royal title, but her Prussian/German titles upgraded.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 30, 2004, 04:47:58 PM
I'm curious about the view of Vicky in England as WWI approached and progressed as well as WWII and beyond. Her "ratings" were sky high during her life, but in the 20th century with the German/English relationships, did she suffer from antagonism since she mothered Wilhelm II? Given her strong affection for Germany, did this add to any negative attitudes in England?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 30, 2004, 04:56:12 PM
Excellent question, HerrKaiser.  I would like to know others' views on this as well, since I have never read anything about this.   I am looking forward to reading!!
(http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vicky3.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 30, 2004, 10:56:35 PM
Quote
I'm curious about the view of Vicky in England as WWI approached and progressed as well as WWII and beyond. Her "ratings" were sky high during her life, but in the 20th century with the German/English relationships, did she suffer from antagonism since she mothered Wilhelm II? Given her strong affection for Germany, did this add to any negative attitudes in England?


I haven't read anything specific but if one can use the past to extrapolate, I don't think her image/reputation suffered. Throughout her whole life she was regarded as a victim of the militaristic Prussian system and never received any blame in the British papers. They were very sympathetic to the plight of 'their' Princess Royal and, according to Hannah Pakula's excellent biography, reported on throughout her life all the difficulties she had with Bismarck, Wilhelm, the troubles during Fritz's illness etc....with a good deal of public outrage stirred up in her defense. She certainly got much better press in England than Germany! Dying only a little over a decade before the war broke out, I don't think her reputation took much of a hit compared with the previous 60+ years of sympathy. If anything, her reputation probably _improved_. The line of thinking that 'if only' she and Fritz had ruled longer, etc...things would've been different (and better). During the post-war period when her letters were published there was again a big well of support for her and it only seemed to confirm the general belief in England that she was misused and generally treated pretty shabbily. There didn't seem to be a collective sense of revisionism so I don't think there was a change of opinion throughout the years of 1901 until the publication of letters. Plus, any sympathy or good-feeling Wilhelm managed to engender in England seemed mostly to stem from the affection which both his parents were held.

As to the title of Princess Royal, there was biography years ago (1980s?) that was a collective look at the Princesses Royal--excluding Anne who hadn't reached the title yet. I think it was by Geoffrey Wakeford. Not very detailed, but good introductions to each of the princesses. The title is completely at the discretion of the monarch so not every eldest daughter had it, nor was there a set time for it. It's been much more common since Vicky received it practically at birth. Soon after her death (but not untastefully so) her brother Edward VII bestowed it upon his daughter Louise; George V to his daughter Mary but Elizabeth didn't give it to Anne for a couple decades after the death of Princess Mary. I guess it will be a long time before it's used again--until William has a daughter (if he does).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on December 01, 2004, 10:54:56 AM
Photos of Empress Frederick and Friedrichshof:

Empress Frederick:
(http://www.schloss-fasanerie.de/shared/enlarge/sonder_old1.01.jpg)

Statue of Frederick III at Friedrichshof:

Empress Frederick's painting of Friedrichshof, 1899:
(http://www.kaiserinfriedrich.de/pics/expo15s.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: MarquisAnthony on December 03, 2004, 12:10:07 PM
I think that Vicky resembles Albert more than Victoria as she aged.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 16, 2004, 05:54:24 PM
The photo of Vicky in later years is a glorious one. Anyone know about her choker set of jewels? Quite stunning, especially on her. I recall she, like Mary, was a fan of pearls.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on January 07, 2005, 11:26:51 AM
I have been rereading An Uncommon Woman, and was wondering why Vicky left Friedrichshof to Mossy.  Does anyone know how any of Vicky's other belongings were distributed between her children?  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 10, 2005, 11:49:53 AM
Mossy was a close companion to her mother. Mossy's older siblings never treated Vicky very well, even up to the very end. Wilhelm did not need any inheritance, but I do not know how Vicky's other  property was distributed. In fact, I recall she didn't have that much in the end other than the Friederickhof home and her personal jewels.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 10, 2005, 12:42:44 PM
Quote
I have been rereading An Uncommon Woman, and was wondering why Vicky left Friedrichshof to Mossy.  Does anyone know how any of Vicky's other belongings were distributed between her children?  


Mossy was the closest to her I believe. She left items to all her children--in some of the newsstories on Moretta after her disastrous 2nd marriage, its reported how she had to sell off many items left to her by her mother, including the china service Vicky had received for her 25 wedding anniversary. Vicky of course, couldn't know what would befall Moretta and Sophie in later years, so she wouldn't have considered leaving the home to them. Moretta had the Schaumburg palace (I'm not sure of its exact name) of her husband and was very well-off. Same with Charlotte who would've been the reigning Duchess of Saxe-Meiningen. Sophie, of course, was to be the next Queen of Greece and thus her future would seem secure.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on January 11, 2005, 11:41:43 AM
All these pictures of Vicky on these pages are really so lovely...thank you to everyone who has posted them.
I think often, when reading her letters, of Marie Louise's description of her:
"There was one curious trait in her character: she was never really satisfied with the moment itself. When she was in Berlin, everything in England was perfect: when she was in England, everything in Germany was equally perfect...."
She sometimes seems like such an aesthete that she could never quite find the perfection she wanted...and was consequently often so disappointed by life....What a fascinating character!  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 15, 2005, 08:33:23 PM
Isn't she pretty? Those 2 images were among the first I saw of Vicky (esp the top) when I was a teen and just found them enchanting. I've been a partisan ever since.  :) I have them in color, I just need to dig them out. The top on by Winterhalter was on the cover of her bio by Daphne Bennett while the 2nd one has been used in some of the foreign editions of Hannah Pakula's.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 16, 2005, 11:08:36 AM
I agree GDella, she is soooo pretty and stunning as a top-rank princess. Among all the royal women we discuss, I still find Vicky to be the most subtley beautiful and serene and Cecelie the most overtly stunning. Both surpass Sissi in my opinion. And interestingly, Vicky's marriage to Fritz was probably the most high-level match up in the last 150 years of royal coupling; Princess Royal of GB and the heir to the most powerful nation in Europe. None other compares lest I forget or have blocked out some. So once again, Vicky's charm, wits and beauty combined with Fritz's handsome grandeur and politics all topped off with their highest rank breeding left the world starkly empty when he died way too soon.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: lostfan on January 19, 2005, 02:35:06 PM
I've read several books and online sites that list not two, but three of Queen Victoria's daughters as being carriers. We know of Alice and Beatrice, but some also say that Vicky was a carrier as well. I know Sigismund died of meningitis, and Waldemar died from diptheria, I think, but I've never heard of any of her children having the disease.

Is this true, or just someone making up random facts and passing them off as history?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 19, 2005, 03:33:13 PM
I don' t think that back then they would have had any way of knowing that Vicki was a carrier unless one of her sons had hemophilia... which wasn't the case. How did they justify this claim in the book?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: lostfan on January 19, 2005, 05:12:29 PM
i'm not sure they really did justify their claim. i believe it was a romanov-related book and they simply said that QVictoria passed the carrier gene on to Victoria, Alice and Beatrice. It goes on to talk about Alice and her descendents, but doesn't say anything else about Beatrice, and never explains why Victoria is on there.

Unless one of Victoria's daughters was a carrier, while none of her sons were, I'm thinking this is a false claim.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marlene on January 19, 2005, 05:23:54 PM


Is this true, or just someone making up random facts and passing them off as history?[/quote]


It is incorrect.  I think some get confused because of one of Vicky's grandsons, Heinrich, suffered from the disease (and died as a result of the disease.)  However, little Heinrich's mother Irene was a carrier.  She was the daughter of Princess ALice.

Two of Victoria's daughters were carriers:  Alice and Beatrice.
One son had the disease: Leopold.

Alice passed the gene to at least two daughters, Irene and Alix.   One son, Friedrich Wilhelm, had the disease (and died as the result of bleeding to death after a fall.)

Irene had three sons, and two of the three sons: Waldemar and Heinrich.  
Alix had one son, Alexei. who had the disease.

Beatrice had three sons and one daughter.  One of the three sons (Leopold) had the disease.  The other two sons, Alexander and Maurice did not (some sources report that Maurice had the disease, but he didn't.  He died in battle.)  He would have been able to serve in the military if he had been a bleeder.
Beatrice's only daughter, Ena, was a carrier.  Two of her three surviving sons, Alfonso and Gonzalo, had the disease.  Neither daughter was a carrier.

Prince Leopold, Victoria's youngest son had the disease.  A male hemophiliac can pass the gene to a daughter, who becomes a carrier.   Thus, Leopold's daughter, Alice, carried the gene.  Her eldest son, Rupert, had the disease.  The younger son probably died from crib death.   Alice's only daughter, Lady May, was not a carrier.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: lostfan on January 19, 2005, 09:00:27 PM
Thanks for the info :] I was doing a paper on hemophilia in the royal houses, and I hadn't heard anything about the Queen's eldest daughter having hemophiliac sons or carrier daughters, so I had to double check with people who would definately know this, and this forum seems like it's teeming with absolutely brilliant people!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on February 24, 2005, 05:50:16 PM
Do you think that Vicky would have been an easy companion? I am quite fascinated by her intellectual brilliance & her aesthetic appreciation & I would love to listen to her talking of all she knew. Even her childhood collections at Osborne were fascinating.
At the same time, however, I wonder if she might have been a little intimidating. I think of Marie Louise being told to take her feet off the Louis XIV furniture, or dropping her cigarette out of the window! Maire Mallet's descriptions alternate between saying she was so pleasant & then 'tactless as usual.'
Do you think she would have been approachable? :-/
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on February 24, 2005, 08:41:52 PM
I think I would've enjoyed her a lot. She would've been conversant in so many things. I think she may have been intimidating but worth the effort!  :) She seems like she had a pretty warm personality--not a chilly or unapproachable one.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on February 25, 2005, 05:05:46 AM
Quote
I think she may have been intimidating but worth the effort!  :) She seems like she had a pretty warm personality--not a chilly or unapproachable one.


Yes :). It might have been better to meet her when she was older; by then she had lived through so much that she might have been a little 'softer' too. Her staff were devoted to her, weren't they? So she cannot have been TOO intimidating. I just think I might have been a little over-awed by her vast knowledge & certainty about everything.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 01, 2005, 11:11:54 AM
I think Vicky would have been a total CHARM to meet and engage in conversation. She was very insightful, ingterested in opinions, and very intelligent. I suspect any intimidation would have been more her royal upbringing than her sense of how to treat people she respected and enjoyed. A dinner with her and Fritz would be my wish for time travel! :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: felix on March 01, 2005, 11:35:16 AM
I posted this on books and didnt get any  response,, but did Victoria  have a book written on her husband. !888.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 01, 2005, 11:37:19 AM
Quote
A dinner with her and Fritz would be my wish for time travel! :)


Yes, HerrKaiser, I agree! I think I may be intimidated by her vast knowledge but then people who are VERY wise and intelligent are usually also very modest about it & do not intimidate.
What about Fritz? I feel he is in a way overlooked not only because of the shortness of his reign but because there is such a vast quantity of Vicky's letters and so few of his. Do you think he would also be very charming? Did he share all her interests in art etc. (he was keen on archaeology wasn't he?) but I know far less about him...could you enlighten me, please?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 01, 2005, 11:10:08 PM
GrandduchessElla will be the best to talk about beloved Fritz, but I can give some basic insights, indeed.
He was truly the quintessential, romantic hero-emperor of fairy tale imagery, but he existed in real life. Big, dashingly handsome, war hero, leader of troops, loved by his men, adored by women, true partner-husband, insightful and visionary, loyal to his parents, and more. Queen Victoria, I think, saw him as Albert reincarnated in many ways, as did Vicky.
Had he lived and reigned even until the turn of the century, he would have established himself (along with Vicky as Kaiserin) as the single most important European leader of the day and perhaps set the stage for a very very different 20th century. All the evidence points to that likelihood.
In addition to his qualities as a leader, he had great personal charm and charisma. At Queen Victoria's Jubiliee, he was already suffering from cancer, but he rode his horse in a completely white Prussion uniform with a marvelous silver helmet and head dress. He was stunning. The roar of the crowds along the parade route for Fritz, who rode by himself unsurrounded by any one else, was as loud and furious as for the queen herself. He was really The Man.
There is a wonderful bronze statue of him in the plaza near the NassauerHof hotel in Wiesbaden. My favorite image of him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 01, 2005, 11:49:44 PM
Quote
I posted this on books and didnt get any  response,, but did Victoria  have a book written on her husband. !888.


I have this book. I haven't looked through it too much as it is old and fragile. I can flip through it though if you'd like to know what it's like. It's a very slender volume.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 02, 2005, 12:00:23 AM
Quote
GrandduchessElla will be the best to talk about beloved Fritz, but I can give some basic insights, indeed.
He was truly the quintessential, romantic hero-emperor of fairy tale imagery, but he existed in real life. Big, dashingly handsome, war hero, leader of troops, loved by his men, adored by women, true partner-husband, insightful and visionary, loyal to his parents, and more.


You did a pretty good job there, HerrKaiser!  :) (BTW I'd posted a new Cecile picture for you in her thread)

Fritz is probably my favorite male royal. He had his flaws--he could be indecisive and prone to depression--but they were fared outweighed by his good qualities. I think he probably would've been very charming to talk to. He was well-educated and spoke English well, I believe (as befitting his future position). Unlike Louis Hesse who could be very halting in his English (to the mockery of some in England) Fritz seemed to be able to converse well with most people. I think 2 testimonials (apart from Vicky's of course) stand out: QV spoke rarely a negative word about him for the 30 years he was part of her family and she could be cutting (he especially won her undying loyalty for his support during PA's death) & then the fact that Alix loved him as well and she HATED Prussia. There were conflicts between the couples over Schleswig-Holstein but even that didn't irreparably damage the relationship and Alix encouraged her children to remember how good their uncle Fritz was. The bulk of his own thoughts that are available are probably those in his war diaries. I can't remember the exact name/date of that publication.

He was tremendously popular in England and papers reported that he received louder cheers during the Jubilee than almost anyone and a lot of the sketches from that date focused on his figure in it's gleaming white/silver uniform. There was also a tremendous amount of sympathetic coverage of his long illness and death. He seems to have garnered a lot of good will as the first in-law of the Queen's family that never dissipated.

As a husband, I imagine based on everything that's been written, he was a dream esp for that era and position. (PLEASE that there's no information out there about him being unfaithful. I just couldn't take it. I've had enough illusions shattered) For all that he was a Prussian soldier he was also an unabashedly adoring husband who truly respected and loved his spouse. Vicky was exceedingly lucky that this prince picked to wed her ended up being what was probably the perfect temperamental match for her.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 02, 2005, 12:46:12 AM
GDElla, I am always so taken on your way of looking at these people. Especially Ftriz & Vicky.  Early on, I thought they were the "Jack&Jackie" of their day, more contemporary "Tony & Cheri". Great liberal young thought. Well, didn't happen. And in reality I suppose they were more condescending thang actually liberal. But. take what we can get.
So what IF he had fooled around ? [I can't see it either] but I have the image of Vicky  just taking it as a part of the job and "let him learn -and probably pay" then moving on.
What I truely do not understand is the failure with their children.  Wilhelm was a mess just because he was Wilhelm, but none of the others turned out in any way remarkable.  Far from it.
Is this the way of all great "liberal" parents? One could at least have hoped they would produce more advanced progency than their opposites.
\Cheers anyway,
Robert

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 02, 2005, 01:19:21 AM
Quote
GDElla, I am always so taken on your way of looking at these people. Especially Ftriz & Vicky.  Early on, I thought they were the "Jack&Jackie" of their day, more contemporary "Tony & Cheri". Great liberal young thought. Well, didn't happen. And in reality I suppose they were more condescending thang actually liberal. ...So what IF he had fooled around ? [I can't see it either] but I have the image of Vicky  just taking it as a part of the job and "let him learn -and probably pay" then moving on.
 


What's my way of looking on them? Do you think it's too rose-colored glasses? I'm confused.

I was only saying that since they're my favorite royal couple I want to reserve the idea that somone besides apparently AIII, NII and GV didn't fool around. If he did, it didn't affect they're love but, being a romantic, it would somewhat tarnish it for me. But that's just my own personal thing.

There was definitely potential squandered but I don't think them condescending. I think they were worn down by the long life of Wilhelm I. Under the German system there really wasn't much they could do in the early years when they were all fired up for change. Vicky's letters to QV show just how they were stifled and thwarted at every turn. There was that one brief period when Wilhem I considered abdicating and many were calling for Fritz to take over but he couldn't decide what to do and was torn by loyalty to his father. Eventually the time passed and 20 years went by. I think they would've been an especially remarkable couple if they'd come to the throne even 10 years earlier let alone 20.

As for the children, well, they had almost no say in the upbringing of the elder 3. Henry turned out OK probably because he was the 'spare' and able to depart for the Navy. Sophie had promise but was plopped on the unstable Greek throne during the worst possible timing. Mossy led a quiet, productive life. Moretta just seems to have a cloud hanging over her. Good, intelligent, well-meaning parents don't always turn out little paragons.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 02, 2005, 01:34:59 AM
As usual, your take on every turn is understanding and compassionate. Mine tends to the more cynical, I am afraid.
In any case, I did not mean to imply that Fritz DID  fool around. Just does not sound like him really.  But that IF it had happened,  they would be pretty pragmatic about it.  Just as they were about anything that came their way.
The whole "ends & means" thing, so to speak.
But their kids... now, I do find it hard to understand that there was no control available.  Where was Vicky's influence from her idolized father on child-rearing ? Do you think she may have  spent so much energy on her husband [and her] goals that she felt they would simply "fall into place" in natural order ?
It just seems [I stress that word] that no influence was exerted, no initiative in their future.
All in all, I suppose they were lucky not to have witnessed the failure of their times.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 02, 2005, 04:06:54 AM
Thank you for these 'insightful' descriptions. I feel I know him a little better now! He always seemed very pleasant but (as I wrote before) because of the vast amount of info available on Vicky, he seemed to fade into the background.
It is surely one of the great tragedies of history that he did not live long enough to fulfil his potential.
I don't agree with you, Robert, that they were condescending (although in some of Vicky's early letters she comes out as a bit of a prig, I think it was only because she was SO young & so struggling to please her mother & father & the Prussians).
The upbringing of their children has been discussed before & it does seem that by the time of Sigismund's birth, Vicky had a more direct role in their upbringing which was paid back in their obvious affection for her.
It is strange to think how popular Fritz was in Britain, in the light of Wilhelm's later unpopularity. It was also very interesting to read that QV saw him almost as a reincarnation of Prince Albert. Perhaps he really WAS the closest royalty to her beloved paradigm.
(And I think the notion of him having affairs is very very unlikely. In fact, I think that the ideal of her parents' fidelity was partly what led Sophie to find Tino & Greece so disenchanting. And perhaps led, too, to Moretta's desperate search for the 'ideal' hero - there's a slight resemblance isn't there between Sandro Battenberg & Fritz.)
THANK YOU!  :)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 02, 2005, 09:15:04 AM
thanks for the many insights on Fritz GrandduchessElla...and the wonderful picture of Cecilie on her thread! (that newspaper article is terrific!)

One of my greatest wishes for a magical twist on history, if it was possible to do so, is to have Frederick and Vicky on the throne by the early 1860s. So much would have been different, assuming that the ineffectual attempts by the couple to accomplish "change" would have turned to dictates. Surely Bismarck would have been more reeled in, an alliance with England stronger than anything on earth, and a very likely different upbringing and education of the kids, particularly William.

Did Vicky try to convince Fritz to encourage his father's abdication? Was there a "movement" to get Fritz on the throne? How close were they to taking over? Where was Queen V on this?

So so sad that they did not get their chance.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 02, 2005, 12:36:51 PM
It would have been fantastic don't you think...not only due to the constitutional changes that could have been applied, but also, and perhapseven more dreamlike, it would have prevented that monstrous Bismarck from the premiership and would have allowed the Hesse-Kassel, Nassau and Hannovers to retain their thrones!

One can only but dream...

Arturo Beéche

PS: it would have also given time to their bratty son Wilhelm to mature and growup into a sensible person instead of the man he became.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 03, 2005, 09:31:29 AM
Quote

Did Vicky try to convince Fritz to encourage his father's abdication? Was there a "movement" to get Fritz on the throne? How close were they to taking over? Where was Queen V on this?

So so sad that they did not get their chance.


I thought that Vicky & Fritz were really concerned to prevent the King's abdication??
What a pity they couldn't see the future, in which case they might have acted differently.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 03, 2005, 09:42:37 AM
I think I read that what was returned was only a small part of what was stolen. Also, through political influence, the [male] thieves  got off very lightly, and the woman did most of the time in prison.
I am trying to find where I read this...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 03, 2005, 09:58:23 AM
Robert, what was stolen? Are you meaning Marie Antoinette's necklace from the other thread?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 03, 2005, 10:27:22 AM
Quote
As usual, your take on every turn is understanding and compassionate. Mine tends to the more cynical, I am afraid.....But their kids... now, I do find it hard to understand that there was no control available.  Where was Vicky's influence from her idolized father on child-rearing ? Do you think she may have  spent so much energy on her husband [and her] goals that she felt they would simply "fall into place" in natural order ?It just seems [I stress that word] that no influence was exerted, no initiative in their future.
All in all, I suppose they were lucky not to have witnessed the failure of their times.
Cheers,
Robert


Oh, OK I understand now.  :)

When it comes to the children I think there were a couple of major factors. One of the largest was the fact that she was just 17 when Wilhelm was born and for her all her precocity was still rather immature and basically a child herself. The other was that she was very isolated in the court with no real friends to turn to for advice. Her MIL didn't provide any as she was miserable in her marriage and Fritz was gone a lot. Her letters to QV show how incredibly alone and stressed she felt. Then her father died just a few years in and with her mother almost incoherent from grief she lost 2 major support systems during a very important time. Not to mention the fact that she was blamed for Wilhelm's deformity. You'll notice that as she becomes a little older she tries to exert more influence over the upbringing of her children but by then it was too late, at least in Wilhelm's case. Very sad I think. Plus you're first one is usually the 'starter' child and you mess them up more than the later ones.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 03, 2005, 10:30:52 AM
Quote

Did Vicky try to convince Fritz to encourage his father's abdication? Was there a "movement" to get Fritz on the throne? How close were they to taking over? Where was Queen V on this?


There was indeed a rather strong movement to try to get Fritz to assume the throne. Vicky and QV were both in a dither about it and their feelings yo-yo'd back and forth. Vicky was primarily just trying to prop Fritz up as he was near a nervous collapse from being pulled in all directions. The situation dragged out for long painful months during which Wilhelm I summoned Fritz a number of times to upbraid him as disloyal while Fritz was also being criticized in the press for not taking control. It was a really untenable position. Fritz just didn't have it in him to be disloyal to his father in that way though it probably would've been better for the future. A true moment lost.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 04, 2005, 11:12:44 AM
Were these deliberations discussed in the letters which Vicky had Fritz Ppnsonby 'smuggle' out of Germany?
I can never really understand why she needed such secrecy about her letters etc.  What did they contain that was SO sensitive? (Her view on Willy? Her dislike of Bismarck? Fritz's role in the Franco-Prussian War?) I really can't see why it was SO necessary to go through all that subterfuge?  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 04, 2005, 05:13:07 PM
I haven't looked at those letters in awhile so I"m not sure--the ones I mentioned come from one of the volumes of letters between Vicky and QV.

I think Vicky wanted the letters smuggled out by Ponsonby because so many of her words were twisted and used against her as proof that she was anti-German. Vicky was always worried about this sort of thing as she often asked QV to destroy a certain letter or two.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 04, 2005, 05:23:05 PM
Thank you for answering  :). This is what confuses me. Are the letters she 'smuggled out' those which are published in the several volumes of their letters (Fulford's) or were there others? None of those letters seem particularly damaging to her view of Prussia...but then, as you say, there are some which say 'burn this' which leave you (the reader) wondering why? And if she wanted them (the ones she smuggled out) burning, why didn't she just destroy them?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 04, 2005, 05:31:20 PM
The smuggled out ones were published as "Letters of the Empress Frederick'. They were separate from the ones to/from QV. The smuggled out ones dealt less with family gossip and more with politics and her troubles in Germany.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 04, 2005, 05:37:06 PM
Do you have those? Are they obtainable from Amazon or somewhere? (Who edited them?) Please.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2005, 05:52:15 PM
Quote
Do you have those? Are they obtainable from Amazon or somewhere? (Who edited them?) Please.


Ponsonby, Sir Frederick  Letters of the Empress Frederick  (1929)

Amazon would give a limited selection .  It is far better to search, say, www.addall.com because of the breath of coverage.  I found numerous books on my want list this way including one ,In the Eyrie of the Hohenzollern, which I had been searching for years and years - and presto - one day, found it (in Australia), and it was cheap.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2005, 05:54:32 PM
Quote
Were these deliberations discussed in the letters which Vicky had Fritz Ppnsonby 'smuggle' out of Germany?
I can never really understand why she needed such secrecy about her letters etc.  What did they contain that was SO sensitive? (Her view on Willy? Her dislike of Bismarck? Fritz's role in the Franco-Prussian War?) I really can't see why it was SO necessary to go through all that subterfuge?  



Vicky's views were liberal - and damning in the eyes of her son, and his cronies.  She could not trust him.  He ordered soldiers to ransack her rooms within hours of her husband's death - by that time, Ponsonby had smuggled the letters out.

The letters published by Fulford are only a selection of what is in the RA.  There are many more letters that have not been published.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 08, 2005, 04:42:17 PM
Please can anyone remind me of this  :) :
Who was the Duchess of Galliera who died in 1888/9 who was a friend of Vicky's & who left her the inheritance which enabled her to buy Friedrichshof?
I have some quotations about her but I cannot remember her Christian name & cannot file them properly!!
I know that Beatrice of Edinburgh, in marrying Alfonso, became Duchess of Galliera, & that Alphonso's mother, Eulalia was presumably the previous Duchess of Galliera. (But she wasn't Vicky's benefactor & friend - was she not the one whose love was the wicked Ct. Jameteel, husband of Marie of Meck.!)
Going back further, the parents of Antonio (Eulalia's husband) were the Montpensiers; & Fernanda D. of Montpensier couldn't have been Vicky's benefactor either since she didn't die until 1897...
Not only, then who is she...but also, how did she come to be Duchess of Galliera....please  :-/
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 08, 2005, 05:55:28 PM
Was it her mother-in-law who died in either 1884 or 1889? Was she a Beauharnais?

She donated quite a lot--a building in Paris to Franz Jospeph which became the Austrian Embassy and a large Palazzo to the city of Genoa for example.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 08, 2005, 06:05:24 PM
Quote
Was it her mother-in-law who died in either 1884 or 1889? Was she a Beauharnais?
.


I'm sorry I don't quite understand  :-[ Whose mother-in-law?
I have on my knee as I write a Napoleon/Beauharnais family tree but I can't find her.... :-/
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 08, 2005, 06:09:14 PM
Does she go through the Leuchtenberg line??  :-/
(That doesn't make sense unless you read my last posting on the previous page!)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 08, 2005, 09:07:27 PM
Quote

There was indeed a rather strong movement to try to get Fritz to assume the throne. Vicky and QV were both in a dither about it and their feelings yo-yo'd back and forth. Vicky was primarily just trying to prop Fritz up as he was near a nervous collapse from being pulled in all directions. The situation dragged out for long painful months during which Wilhelm I summoned Fritz a number of times to upbraid him as disloyal while Fritz was also being criticized in the press for not taking control. It was a really untenable position. Fritz just didn't have it in him to be disloyal to his father in that way though it probably would've been better for the future. A true moment lost.



Can you imagine how diferent the world would have been if Edward VII, Fritz and Alexander III had lived until 1940-1945?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 08, 2005, 11:19:08 PM
Quote

I'm sorry I don't quite understand  :-[ Whose mother-in-law?
I have on my knee as I write a Napoleon/Beauharnais family tree but I can't find her.... :-/


I mean was it Eulalia's mother-in-law?  I looked through my Vicky bios and each time it had one line (even in Pakula's!) on the friendship/bequest and didn't mention the whole name. Very frustrating.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 08, 2005, 11:19:55 PM
Quote


Can you imagine how diferent the world would have been if Edward VII, Fritz and Alexander III had lived until 1940-1945?

TampaBay


They all would've been about a 100 then--I'd settle just for the 1914-1918 period.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 09, 2005, 04:22:57 AM
Quote

I mean was it Eulalia's mother-in-law?  I looked through my Vicky bios and each time it had one line (even in Pakula's!) on the friendship/bequest and didn't mention the whole name. Very frustrating.


Grandduchessella, I've found her!! Thank you so much for looking  :) I knew it couldn't be Eulalia's mother-in-law because she was Fernanda (of Spain) Montpensier.
It was Maria Brignon-Sale de Ferrari - and yes she did make many many donatins to Genoa, building orphanages etc.
Her father Antonio owned the Palazzo Rossi there & left it to her & she donated it to the city.
I haven't found out about her husband yet - but I will - but she had a son who rejected the title of Galliera & that was when it reverted to Spain...that's why the next Duchess was Eulalia. The family was connected to the Italian RF...I will find out more & post it  :) :)
Isn't it a lovely feeling when you find something you've been looking for!  (I think you were right about her dying in 1884 - that was when she made many of her donations anyway. THANKS  :) )

Oh, just found out she made a donation in 1887, too - so unless it took ages to read her will, she can't have died in 1884.
By the way, Napoleon's Josephine Beauharnais WAS an earlier Duchess of Galliera - created so in 1813 (a year before her death?)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 09, 2005, 01:34:27 PM
I believe the last Duchess of Galliera, Maria Brignole-Sale, left a considerable part of her inheritance to both Kaiserin Friedrich and tothe Infante don Antonio de Orleans, only surviving son of the duc and Duchesse de Montpensier, who was married to Infanta Eulalia of Spain.  Infante don Antonio (1866-1930) thus became the 4th Duke of Galliera, his son Alfonso (1886-1975) was the 5th Duke, his son Alvaro was the 6th Duke (1910-1997) and his grandson Alfonso is the present and 7th Duke of Galliera (b. 1968).

Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was married to the 5th Duke of Galliera.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 09, 2005, 03:41:52 PM
She seems to have been extremely wealthy based on her numerous (very nice) bequests. Did Alfonso lose this money when the Spanish RF went into exile? I think he went to work at an auto place didn't he--was this because he needed the money or didn't want to just float around as an exile? I think I read somewhere that while associating with all kinds of folks at his job, he picked up various dialects and was quite a mimic with them.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 09, 2005, 03:55:22 PM
Quote

They all would've been about a 100 then--I'd settle just for the 1914-1918 period.  :)


Your right I miscounted thinking about the Kaiser Wilhelm II.  Let's say 1920.  They would have been around 80 current age of prince Phillip and King Michael of Roumania.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 09, 2005, 04:04:38 PM
Does anyone know the date that Maria was born? Or when/whom she married? I know her son, Philippe was born in 1848 & his godfather was Louis Philippe of France...but beyond that??
I wonder why so little is available about her when she obviously made such an impact of Genoa  :-/
No one seems to record anything about her except the money she gave!!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 09, 2005, 06:17:23 PM
Quote
Does anyone know the date that Maria was born? Or when/whom she married? I know her son, Philippe was born in 1848 & his godfather was Louis Philippe of France...but beyond that??
I wonder why so little is available about her when she obviously made such an impact of Genoa  :-/
No one seems to record anything about her except the money she gave!!


The Duchess of Galliera was born a Brignole-Sale.  She married an extremely rich Italian aristocrat by the last name of Ferrari, whose fortune had allowed the man to purchase the title of Duke of Galliera, as well as all entailed estates.  The Duchess had spent her youth at the court of Louis Philippe of the French and throughout her life had retained a deep friendship with the Orléans.  after her husband's death, the son (not biological offspring mind you) of the late Duke refused any inheritance.  Upset by the situation, the Duchess decided to disperse her large fortune among her many royal friends throughout Europe, the main beneficiary being the Duc de Montpensier.  The Austrian Empress was given a marvelous pearl necklace; while the Prussian Crown Princess (Vicky) received considerable sums of money; to the city of Paris she left an important piece of real estate which is now known as the Hôtel Matignon; the Count of Paris got her silver; the palace Rozzo was given to the city of Genoa; and to Infante Antonio de Orléans she left an important palace in Paris as well as the bulk of her Italian propertiesand the title of Duke of Galliera.  This division of the Galliera estates and titles was done with the approval of His Italian Majesty.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 09, 2005, 06:23:46 PM
Alfonso de Orleans inherited vast properties in Spain and Italy, but the bulk of the money which his father had inherited had already been spent by the Alfonso's father, don Antonio, most of it on his mistresses.  Alfonso and his brother Luis Fernando even opened a lawsuit against their father to keep him from going through all the family's wealth...it was not a good situation.

After the fall of the monarchy in 1931 Alfonso and Beatrice left Spain, returning later when the political conditions within the country had settled a bit.  A considerable portion of their lands and fortunes was nationalized by the leftist republican authorities, always so quick to take away property that does not belong to them.  

Their middle son Alonso died fighting during the civil war and the advent of Franco allowed Alfonso and Beatrice to return to Spain and work on rebuilding their decimated properties.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 09, 2005, 06:41:26 PM
Thanks you Arturo for all that information. What do you mean by 'not biological offspring' - not the father's? Not the mother's? Adopted? And why did he refuse the inheritance? (Please).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 09, 2005, 07:27:58 PM
I believe he was not his father's son, if you get my drift.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 10, 2005, 04:52:35 AM
Quote
I believe he was not his father's son, if you get my drift.

Arturo Beéche


Right, thanks, I understand, Arturo. So presumably that was why he refused his 'father's' title. What a shame. Thank you.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marlene on March 10, 2005, 10:29:34 AM
Quote
She seems to have been extremely wealthy based on her numerous (very nice) bequests. Did Alfonso lose this money when the Spanish RF went into exile? I think he went to work at an auto place didn't he--was this because he needed the money or didn't want to just float around as an exile? I think I read somewhere that while associating with all kinds of folks at his job, he picked up various dialects and was quite a mimic with them.  :)


This branch of the family never suffered financially, and are are extremely wealthy ...however, a good chunk of their wealth comes from the MOntpensier side.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 10, 2005, 11:31:14 AM
I really should like to know very much more about this Duchess. She seems to pose more questions than she answers! Why, for example, is there so little information available about her (apart from about her wealth.) How did she come to have the son who was not her husband's child? Was he from a previous marriage or from an affair after her marriage or from bewfore she was married (surely not for then it is unlikely that Louis Philippewould have been godfather??) Did she have no other children? Did the son, Philippe, know he was not his 'father's' child? Did it affect his relationship with Maria? How did Maria come be such a friend of Vicky's and how well did Vicky know the whole family.....
She always appears in books & letters as just a title, money & little more & yet to have been so benevolent she should certainly be better remembered. Perhaps someone on the Forum lives in Genoa (??) and could say whether she is better remembered there? Please  :-/
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 10, 2005, 11:41:05 AM
Quote

This branch of the family never suffered financially, and are are extremely wealthy ...however, a good chunk of their wealth comes from the MOntpensier side.


Actually Marlene, when Alfonso went to court to intervene his father's handling of the family wealth they were on the brink of facing serious financial trouble.

Antonio Galliera lavished incredible sums of money on his mistresses.

The civil war and the confiscation of their lands also did not help during the 1930's.

Alvaro Galliera's marriage to Carla Parodi Delfino certainly helped him considerably since she was very, very wealthy, although a commooner.

The onset of the Franco regime did help Alfonso and Beatrice's position since they were able to return to Seville and recover their lands, most of hwich remain in the family's hands.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marlene on March 10, 2005, 12:49:02 PM
Quote

Actually Marlene, when Alfonso went to court to intervene his father's handling of the family wealth they were on the brink of facing serious financial trouble.

Antonio Galliera lavished incredible sums of money on his mistresses.

The civil war and the confiscation of their lands also did not help during the 1930's.

Alvaro Galliera's marriage to Carla Parodi Delfino certainly helped him considerably since she was very, very wealthy, although a commooner.

The onset of the Franco regime did help Alfonso and Beatrice's position since they were able to return to Seville and recover their lands, most of hwich remain in the family's hands.

Arturo Beéche



the point is that they never lost their fortune ... yes Alfonso did have to go to court, but this was a branch of the family that was never destitute .. and they have made wise and shrewd investments.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on March 10, 2005, 12:57:56 PM
Not to veer anyone off of the Galliera discussion  ;D, but were the weddiing presents that the Empress Frederick received upon her marriage ever listed in the popular press, such as Queen Mary's were?  I am interested to know what jewelry she received from her parents et al.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 10, 2005, 05:56:18 PM
Apart from what happened later, does anyone please know anything more about the Duchess of Galliera's earlier life, please?  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 10, 2005, 07:22:48 PM
I have often wondered myself...the Brignole were a prominent French family...but I do not know anything else of her early years, sadly.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 11:41:39 AM
The 2nd Duke of Galliera was born Raffaele di Ferrari (1803-1876), Prince of Lucedio. He was a banker for the Vatican and was given the title by Piux IX in 1837. (I don’t quite understand it but I guess the title was originally in the Beauharnais family but died out perhaps?) The 2nd Duke married Marie of Brignole. According to the memoirs of the Infanta Eulalia's the 2nd Duke & Duchess of Galliera's son and heir "madly" accused his mother of having betrayed her father and , declaring he was illegitimate, resigned his claim to the title and properties. When the Duke died the Duchess, who suffered "terribly" by her son's actions, decided to "give" the title and properties to Infante Antonio of Spain, the duke of Montpensier's son (husband of Eulalia). (Keep in mind though that  Eulalia’s memoirs were rather colorful and perhaps rather embellished but really fun to read—I’ve read one volume of three)

Here’s something else I found relating to one of the Duchess’s properties (translated from Italian so bear with me):
The Palace was sold to Raffaele di Ferrari, Duke of Galliera,of the Genovese nobility and who was married to Maria of Brignole a great-granddaughter of Prince of  Monaco. She was heir to one of the more important patrimonies of the age; one says that encompassed half of Genoa. Founder of the "Crédit Immobilier de France", Raffaele financed numerous great works of the second half of the 19th century: the construction of the railroads of Austria, Latin America, Portugal, France (the line Paris-Lione-Marseilles),  the digging of the Suez Canal among other works. Three years after the exile of Napoleon III the  Duchess offered the Count of Paris the residence at the Rue de Varenne and the Matignon Hotel. It was here in 1886 that one of the great parties took place—the marriage of Princess Amelie of Orleans to Crown Prince Carlos of Portugal. A report said that on the same day the French President, wanting to go to the Bois de Boulogne, was not able to exit from the Eliseo because all Paris was blocked from the traffic due to the wedding. The next day, worried from an equally large crowd of pro-monarchist that had gathered to celebrate the wedding of a French princess , Prime Minister de Freycinet, asked to vote into a law which exiled from France all heirs to the French throne. Disappointed, the Duchess di Galliera gave  the Palace to Emperor Franz Josef who made it the Austrian Embassy. WW1 war put the Austria and France on opposite sides and thus the Matignon Hotel was seized in 1919 and classified as an ‘enemy’ property. After numerous negotiations France bought back the property in November 1922.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 11:49:52 AM
After more googling around in Italian.  :) A portrait!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/vsala01_01z1.jpg)

Léon Cogniet Ritratto di Maria Brignole-Sale

Just after entering the Gallery in the Palazzo Rosso, you will see the large portrait  Ritratto di Maria Brignole-Sale De Ferrari, Duchess of Galliera, and her son Philip on the right-hand wall. The work was created in 1856 by Léon Cogniet, one of the best-known portrait painters of French high society. The lady is depicted in the luxurious Parisian residence of the Dukes of Galliera on the Rue de Varenne, home today to the prestigious Hotel Matignon (mentioned in my previous post). She is holding the precious "Brignole Bible", an illuminated manuscript dating from the 13th  century. It is now in the keeping of the City of Genoa's History Archives. The portrait is located at the entrance to the gallery in remembrance of her generous donation of the building and its art collections to the City of Genoa.

Enjoy bluetoria! I'm hot on the trail of some more info.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 14, 2005, 12:01:18 PM
grandduchessella, you are truly amazing!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you  :) :) :)

She is certainly such an interesting & unhappy character! The allegations of her son's illegitimacy clearly sound so fabricated & so unjust. Perhaps it was her cultural & philanthropic interests which drew her to Vicky. I shall print off your posts & read them more thoroughly again! THANK YOU!! I had given up hope!  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 12:04:46 PM
Some more on her ancestry:

Maternal:
Maria Caterina Brignole Born 7 October 1737 Died 18 March 1813 Wimbledon (the Duchess’s grandmother apparently) who was the daughter of Jacques Francois Leonor Grimaldi , Prince of  Monaco, Duke of Valentinois. This made the Duchess’s grandmother 1st cousin to Honore III of Monaco. This would link the Duchess of Galliera to the Dukes of Hamilton in Great Britain as well it appears to the houses of Hesse-Darmstadt (Landgraf Ludwig IX was also a cousin of Maria Caterina) and Baden among others.  

Paternal (very Italian so I hope it's understandable)
On her father’s side (lots of titles!):
Marchese Antonio, 9th Marchese di Groppoli, Patrizio Genovese, Conte dell’Impero Francese 1811, Cavaliere dell’Ordine Supremo della Santissima Annunziata 1848, Uditore del Consiglio di Stato dell’Impero Francese 1807, Segretario Generale del Consiglio per la Liquidazione del Debito Pubblico in Toscana 1809, Prefetto del Dipartimento di Montenotte 1812, Inviato della Repubblica di Genova al Congresso di Vienna 1814, Ministro Plenipotenziario del Re di Sardegna in Toscana 1816-1818, Ministro Plenipotenziario del Re di Sardegna in Spagna 1819-1821, Ministro Plenipotenziario del Re di Sardegna in Russia nel 1826, Consigliere di Stato del Regno di Sardegna dal 1831, Ministro Plenipotenziario  (finance minister?)del Re di Sardegna in Francia 1836-1848, Senatore del Regno di Sardegna dal 1848 (nomina convalidata il 1855), prestò giuramento 1855 (*Genova 1786-1863) m.  Genova 1808 Artemisia Negrone, figlia del Marchese Giuseppe Antonio Negrone, Patrizio Genovese, e di Maria dei Marchesi Balbi (1787-1865)
1). Anna (1810-1815)
2). Maria, Duchessa di Galliera m. Genova 1828 il Marchese Don Raffaele de Ferrari, Duca di Galliera, 1° Principe di Lucedio, Patrizio Genovese (1803-1876)
3) Luigia (1822-1869) m. Genova 1842 Don Ludovico Melzi d’Eril, 3rd Duca di Lodi &11th Conte di Magenta, Patrizio Milanese
4)Vittoria (Genova 1827)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 14, 2005, 05:29:59 PM
The more I read this, the more interesting the whole family becomes. It is very strange that there is so little information about them (I mean generally) because they seem - judging by the many Italian titles & responsibilities - to have been 'major players' in many areas. (I do understand Italian by the way - I just said that so that if anything else comes up you don't have to translate it all  ;))
I wonder what became of her son & if they remained estranged once he'd made his strange claim...(don't worry   :) I'm not asking you to find that out as well! I'm just musing.)
I really am so happy that you were able to find this & kind enough to post it.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eurohistory on March 14, 2005, 06:30:34 PM
It is always nothing short of amazing what sources and wonderful surprises Google has brought to life for all of us to enjoy...thanks!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 15, 2005, 05:21:57 AM
Quote

 I will say it took a lot of tracking and backtracking to figure out what to search.

I was just glad to find a portrait for you--I couldn't believe when that one fell into my lap--I wasn't aiming nearly that high. I thought I'd just get the basics.



That is a real skill being able to find what you're looking for & doubtless v. time-consuming.  :) )

In your posts I noticed something odd, which may explain her son's allegations. She was married in 1828 - she must have been v. young (if her elder sister was born in 1810, the earliest she could have been born was 1811, which would make her only 17) but on the painting - which is dated 1856 - she is depicted with her child Philip, who is still virtually a baby. Presumably, since he rejected the title, he was her eldest son - born 28 years after the wedding? (Or was it the practice to paint portraits of earlier times??).
I think I read elsewhere that Philip was born in 1838 (or at least that he was 10 years old in 1848!) which would still make it ten years after the wedding. Perhaps if he was her first child, this is where his notion came from that her husband was not his father. Perhaps they were even estranged. Or perhaps Philip just didn't like his father & so preferred to believe that he wasn't!

Following your ancestry post, I have managed to find her grandmother Maria Caterina on  family tree of Monaco, but here she is named as daughter of Giovanni Brignole-Sale, D. of Genoa & she married Honore III of Monaco in 1751. Their son was Honore IV  & they were  
divorced in 1770?
This all really is very intriguing. (Oh! Please don't think I'm saying any of your info was wrong - I'm certainly NOT!  :) :) - I just mean how very intriguing it is that even among the little information there is there are some discrepancies.  :) )

I also thought it quite funny that she has no objection to the little boy putting his hand (since children's hands are ALWAYS sticky!) slap bang down on the middle of an ancient & valuable 13th century Bible!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 15, 2005, 07:57:29 AM
Quote

Following your ancestry post, I have managed to find her grandmother Maria Caterina on  family tree of Monaco, but here she is named as daughter of Giovanni Brignole-Sale, D. of Genoa & she married Honore III of Monaco in 1751. Their son was Honore IV  & they were  
divorced in 1770?



You could very well be right BT--I was looking through complicated geneaological information (not always in English) and was on rather uncertain ground as to the precise relationship. The was information that said that she was the great-granddaughter of the Prince of Monaco (didn't say which) and I was trying to piece it together from there.

BTW--I don't mind correction when I'm wrong. I'd never want mis-information going out there with my name on it.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on March 15, 2005, 12:16:14 PM
Wedding medal of Friedrich and Victoria:
(http://www.christophereimer.co.uk/images/m/8557.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 15, 2005, 04:55:23 PM
That is very interesting jfkhaos. Thank you for posting it. What is the 'Salve' engraving on the reverse side depicting?  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 17, 2005, 09:18:06 PM
Getting back to the subject of Vicki-

I have read in two different places that between her marriage to Fritz and birth of Wilhelm, she & Fritz had University professors come to their home and conduct lessons in religon, languages, CHEMISTRY & PHYSICS because they wanted to continue their educations.

Forum Administrator, do you have any knowledge or documentaion to back this up?  Religon and languages I would understand but CHEMISTRY & PHYSICS????- I doubt.

However, I am sure Vicki would have given anything to attend university.  It is my understanding Fritz attended the University of Bonn.  Did not Prince Albert also attend the University of Bonn?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2005, 09:29:03 PM
There is a brief mention of studying chemistry & electricity in Hannah Pakula's exemplary bio of Vicky. She did TONS of research (judging by the footnotes and references) so I would guess there's something there.

I wouldn't doubt it on its face either as Vicky was interested at the time in various renovations (which could explain the electricity issue) to the incredibly behind-the-times residences. Also she had an insatiable curiosity about most things and judging by some of her letters later on regarding social improvements she knew a great deal about the sciences--she wrote of sanitation systems, plumbing, etc....
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2005, 10:19:00 PM
From Pakula re: Fritz

'Shortly after his eighteenth birthday, Fritz left for the Univesity of Bonn. He was the first heir to the Prussian throne to attend a public university....The experience affected him deeply: 'No one can deny that no true picture of the life and doings of men can be gained at Court, and that it can only be acquired from the infrequent intercourse with persons of all classes....At Court one is surrounded by people who invariably meet royalty with politeness....and only too frequently with deceitful flatteries...' '

F. felt that attending university brought him into contact with more of his contemporaries and broadened his horizons. His breadth of studies was also impressive.

(More Pakula)
'...studied law--German, international, civil, criminal and ecclesiastical--poitical science, history, French and English literature, and the science of fortifications.' [Defiintely beneficial to a future soldier!]
'His professor of political science was FC Dahlmann, a leading liberal thinker, who believed in hereditary monarchy but also in constitutional and representative government.' [Dahlmann along with the Brothers Grimm had once been thrown out of a University by the King of Hanover for their refusal to rescind an oath of loyalty to a liberal constitution]
'If not a particularly gifted student, Fritz was a hardworking, perservering one.'

According to his English professor the 2 enjoyed writing imaginary letters to English Ministers and society members

This is what I found but I only checked Pakula so far.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 18, 2005, 10:28:29 AM
Fritz sounds as worthy a leader for today as in the 19th century! Perhaps moreso!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 18, 2005, 07:44:56 PM
Quote
I have read in two different places that between her marriage to Fritz and birth of Wilhelm, she & Fritz had University professors come to their home and conduct lessons in religon, languages, CHEMISTRY & PHYSICS because they wanted to continue their educations.
Forum Administrator, do you have any knowledge or documentaion to back this up?  Religon and languages I would understand but CHEMISTRY & PHYSICS????- I doubt.
TampaBay


From the 1st vol of letters between QV & Vicky:
from Vicky March 4 1858
'Professor Schellbach [Fritz's old math tutor] is coming tomorrow at 12--wer are going to hear a lecture on electricity. He is to come twice a week. Professor Raumer [historian] is going to give us lectures on the German history of the middle ages, and someone else whose name I have forgotten on literature. Count Perponcher comes and puts Fritz au fait of all that is going on in the political world, and I am always present; he is very clever and has an agreeable way ot explaining. With him and the Baron besides the newspapers, we are able to hear all that goes on. I have had a most interesting lesson from Professor Schellbach in chemistry.'

So, straight from the horse's mouth. She seems to have enjoyed the various lectures they had.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 19, 2005, 11:39:24 AM
Only one way to describe the Crown Princess-One Hell of Woman.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 19, 2005, 12:15:07 PM
It was very progressive for Fritz, as heir the the Prussian throne, to attend a public university. What's more, Bonn was not even part of Prussia, right? Seems to take the step of sending the Kronprinz off to school and then out of the kingdom was a double dose of progressiveness that was unheard of.
During his tenure at Univesity of Bonn, what were his accomdations and security? Was he treated differently as was Chelsea Clinton at Stanford or Oxford?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 19, 2005, 01:24:38 PM
Quote
It was very progressive for Fritz, as heir the the Prussian throne, to attend a public university. What's more, Bonn was not even part of Prussia, right? Seems to take the step of sending the Kronprinz off to school and then out of the kingdom was a double dose of progressiveness that was unheard of.
During his tenure at Univesity of Bonn, what were his accomdations and security? Was he treated differently as was Chelsea Clinton at Stanford or Oxford?
Thanks!



Herr Kasier,

It is my understadning that Prince Albert also attened Univ of Bonn.

According to one of my German friends, Bonn is a very liberal university.  The "Berkley" of German University.  Are you German?  Do you know if Albert attended Bonn University.  What is the current reputation of Bonn University?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 19, 2005, 02:32:43 PM
Bonn University remains one of the top institutions of learning in Germany and ranks well worldwide. It has a great professor to student ratio and it fair share and more of awards and noteworthy research.

If Bonn University is the "Berkeley" of Germany (even 135 years ago) it is no wonder Fritz's politics were framed and matured as they were. He clearly had a "peoples" view of the nation and the world, and was clearly in line with the liberal issues that triggered the revolutions of 1848 as well as the evolutionary movement toward democracy and rights of common people.

Tampabay, I am ethnic German (with a pinch of American Indian), but do not let my screen name fool you....my family comes from peasantry and the Kaiser would never have given my ancestors the time of day! :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 19, 2005, 02:50:31 PM
Quote

Tampabay, I am ethnic German (with a pinch of American Indian), but do not let my screen name fool you....my family comes from peasantry and the Kaiser would never have given my ancestors the time of day! :)


Kaiser Wilhelm II probably not.  Vicki and Fritz would.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 19, 2005, 08:05:02 PM
Absolutely agree. And it is this couple who I think would be the most interesting historical royal figures to meet and spend an evening with. No question.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on March 20, 2005, 06:22:43 AM
Quote

 Do you know if Albert attended Bonn University.  


Yes he did & he loved it! He enjoyed all his studies & organized amateur theatricals & fencing. According to his biography, he flourished there & made many friends & was very sorry to leave.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on March 20, 2005, 07:37:13 AM
Quote
Absolutely agree. And it is this couple who I think would be the most interesting historical royal figures to meet and spend an evening with. No question.



Can you imagine the world if he and Vicki had stayed on the throne until 1920?

TampaBay

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Elizabeth_Fern on April 13, 2005, 05:43:20 PM
Although Vicky and Fritz are two of my favorites, i think that WWI would still have taken place, and everything else would have remained the same. WWI was much more of an ecomonic/political/social issue than a 'family ties' one. But i do think that If Alexander II's older brother had lived that there would not have been a bloody Russian Revolution... but that is for another thread
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on April 13, 2005, 05:58:41 PM
Quote
Although Vicky and Fritz are two of my favorites, i think that WWI would still have taken place, and everything else would have remained the same. WWI was much more of an ecomonic/political/social issue than a 'family ties' one. But i do think that If Alexander II's older brother had lived that there would not have been a bloody Russian Revolution... but that is for another thread


Do you mean Alexander III?  Please elaborate.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Elizabeth_Fern on April 13, 2005, 06:05:54 PM
sorry, yes i did, wow... that is a really bad slip on my part... totally red in the face now!! :-)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on May 30, 2005, 07:01:26 AM
To return to Vicky's character...would you like to have stayed with her? I think her company would have been fascinating & I would love to have listened to her but I think she might have been a little overwhelming to visit. I love the account of Marie Louise throwing her cigarette end out of the  window when she heard Vicky coming (Vicky who hated smoking!  ;)); and this from Marie Louise:

“[Friedrichshof was]..more of a museum than a house….I remember once…I went upstairs to my room and lay down on my sofa. My aunt came to see that I had everything I needed and seeing me reclining on the couch said: ‘Dear child do you not know that you are lying on a cinquecento coverlet!’ and she placed a newspaper over it although I had already taken the precaution of removing my shoes."  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on July 07, 2005, 09:27:43 AM
Have any other of the other posters heard of this?  I was searching for "Empress Frederick" at google.com and came across this link, which indicates a film was shot of the late Empress' funeral procession by command of her son Wilhelm II.  I would be interested to know if anyone has seen this.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390031/
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 07, 2005, 10:46:58 AM
This film, if it is what the reviewers indicate, would be a fantastic piece of history to view. Film at that time was very new, and of course without sound, but the chemical technology was excellent and images nicely preserved. I am going to try to get a copy.

William was very unkind at Victoria's death in Kronberg, only a few months after his very compassionate bedside vigil at the death of QV. So, it will be interesting to see how he looks at his mother's funeral.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on July 07, 2005, 11:08:38 AM
HerrKaiser,

Please let me know if you are able to obtain a copy of the film.  I would be very interested to see this, and it will provide valuable insight on the Empress and her son.  I know the Empress had specific instructions on how she wanted her funeral and burial to proceed, so the film should provide evidence on how everything proceeded and if it was contrary to her wishes.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RickV on July 07, 2005, 03:19:59 PM
There are also clips listed at imdb.com of Queen Victoria's funeral and King Edward's coronation and God knows what else! I wish we could have all these on one tape or dvd! Here are some brief clips at this link of different royal personages - King Edward, King George, Kaiser Wilhelm, Franz Josef, Nicholas and Alexandra...

http://www.firstworldwar.com/video/1914.htm
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 19, 2005, 09:01:17 PM
I have checked with all the archival units in Berlin, Babelsberg, and Potsdam and none have any film footage of Vicky's funeral. Hmmmm....will keep searching.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 20, 2005, 08:15:38 AM
They also list:

The Emperor and Empress and Crown Prince of Germany (1902)
A very fine portrait picture of the royal family of Germany, taken at Kiel on the occasion of the launching of the German cruiser "Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse." The distinguished company passed very close to the camera, and as the negative is unusually good photographically, a splendid portrait of each is given.

Emperor William II (1902)
The Emperor leaving the court of the barracks of the Alexander Grenadier Regiment. The officers of the regiment are shown standing at attention while the Emperor mounts his carriage and is driven away. He passes very near the camera, and a good portrait is afforded.

The First Procession in State of H.M. King Edward VII (1901/II)
Their Majesties, the King and Queen of England, proceeding to open Parliament, Feb. 14, 1901. A splendid view of the royal coach drawn by six cream-colored horses, with an escort of the Life Guards.

Her Majesty, Queen Victoria (1899/I)
"The Honorable Artillery passing in review at Windsor before the Royal Carriage in which are Her Majesty, and the Princesses Christian and Louise. The Prince of Wales, now King Edward VII, rides at the head of the line."

Her Majesty, Queen Victoria (1899/II)
"The arrival of Her Majesty with escort of the Horse Guards. In the first carriage appears the Queen, Princesses Christian and Louise, and the Marchioness of Lorne. In the second carriage, The Duchess of Connaught, Princesses Margaret and Patricia of Connaught and Victoria of Schlesweg-Holstein."

Her Majesty, Queen Victoria, Reviewing the Honorable Artillery (1899)
"Her Majesty, the Queen, with Princesses Christian and Louise in the royal carriage at Windsor reviewing the Honorable Artillery. On this occasion the Queen graciously dispensed with the use of a parasol, permitting the Biograph to secure an excellent portrait. This was one of the last occasions on which she appeared at a public function."

King Edward VII at the Birthday Celebration of the King of Denmark (1902)
This view shows the arrival of the King of England at the royal wharf, where he is received by the assembled Sovereigns and Princes, including the Czar of Russia, the King of Denmark, the King of Greece, and others. An excellent view of the various noble personages by this film, which is of very high photographic value. [wouldn't I love to see this one!]

Prince of Wales Leaving Marlborough House to Attend an Investure (1897)
"This is a splendid picture of the King (then the Prince of Wales) leaving Marlborough House, in the royal carriage. The King is uniformed as Field-Marshal of the British Army, and is accompanied by a suite and an escort of the Horse Guards. This is one of the best portraits of the King ever made."

Promenade of the Kings (1902)
Another very remarkable film in which appear almost all the sovereigns of Europe as they are seen in private life, in mufti, and enjoying a family re-union. The picture was made in the garden of the autumn home of the King of Denmark, where the various royal personages walk before the camera chatting gaily, and evidently very much pleased. In the picture appear the King of Greece, the Empress of Russia, the Queen of England, besides various Princes and Princesses. [this one too!]

Queen Victoria's Funeral [Number 1] (1901)
Scene at Trinity Pier, showing the coffin arriving on gun-carriage, which is stopped at the landing stage. The pall with the crown and sceptre being taken off, the coffin is carried through to the boat. King Edward VII and Emperor William, with the ladies of the court in deep mourning, walk behind the gun carriage. A very fine picture is afforded of the entire party.

Queen Victoria's Funeral [Number 2] (1901)
This scene, taken from Earl Gray's Gardens, London, with the Marble Arch in background, shows the funeral processing passing Lord Brassey's house, in the following order: Earl Marshal Roberts and staff, Heraldic Offices, Household Officers, Gun carriage bearing coffin, the Royal Standard, His Majesty, King Edward VII, His Royal Highness, the Duke of Connaught, His Imperial Majesty, Emperor William of Germany, Monarchs and Foreign Princes, carriages containing Ladies of the Royal Family.

Queen Victoria's Funeral [Number 3] (1901)
A close view of the funeral procession coming toward the camera. This view is of particular interest, as it shows the naval brigade drawing the gun carriage, after it became impossible to control the horses. King Edward VII, and Emperor William walk in the military escort at the rear of the carriage.

Queen Victoria's Last Visit to Ireland (1900)
"This is the last ceremonious public appearance of Her Majesty, Queen Victoria. The picture was taken in Phoenix Park, Dublin, April 4th, 1900, and shows the Queen in an open carriage, being cheered by thousands of people, as she passes through an arch of welcome."









Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 19, 2005, 10:23:17 PM
Quote
When it comes to the children I think there were a couple of major factors. One of the largest was the fact that she was just 17 when Wilhelm was born and for her all her precocity was still rather immature and basically a child herself. The other was that she was very isolated in the court with no real friends to turn to for advice. Her MIL didn't provide any as she was miserable in her marriage and Fritz was gone a lot. Her letters to QV show how incredibly alone and stressed she felt. Then her father died just a few years in and with her mother almost incoherent from grief she lost 2 major support systems during a very important time.  Not to mention the fact that she was blamed for Wilhelm's deformity. You'll notice that as she becomes a little older she tries to exert more influence over the upbringing of her children but by then it was too late, at least in Wilhelm's case. Very sad I think. Plus you're first one is usually the 'starter' child and you mess them up more than the later ones.


I've been wondering about the vast differences between the older children's feelings towards Vicky and the younger ones.  It seems I read in Pakula's work that Vicky did to Wilhelm a bit of what Albert did to Bertie: Pressed him to achieve more than he could.  Then Willie would go to his grands' and be completely spoiled.  Your remarks about her state of mind during her 1st years as mother are right on, and they've filled in more of the story.  It just seems odd that half the kids would despise her and half would adore her.  I think maybe due to Wilhelm's position as heir V and F  put pressure on him that he couldn't handle because he just didn't have the brainpower his parents had.  Not to mention his and Henry's ghastly tutor...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 29, 2005, 12:39:48 PM
When I stayed at Frederikhof, they told me that indeed Vicky did paint this fantastic portrait of her husband. However, I was puzzled by this claim since the portrait was so "official" looking. It was also hanging in a stairwell, not in a prominent position at all. Seems that if Vicky had painted it, it would have been front and center.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on August 31, 2005, 05:19:32 AM
The painting is no longer visible on the forum now  :-/ but I saw a similar one (I think it was the same) labelled as by Anton Weber and given to QV by Vicky for Christmas 1889. Since this one has vanished I can't compare to see if it is the same...does anyone else know?  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RickV on September 02, 2005, 08:36:04 PM
I can see it, but here is the site where those photos orginated:

http://www.fbarnard.org.uk/Prussia/prussia2/Further%20Homburg.htm (http://www.fbarnard.org.uk/Prussia/prussia2/Further%20Homburg.htm)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 07, 2005, 07:12:49 PM
Apologize in advance if this has  been covered, but with regard to the relationship between Vicky and her sister Alice in Hesse, my sense from some items I have read is that Alice felt a bit 'beneathe' her sister and there was a slightly strained relationship due to Vicky's status versus that of Alice's. Any concrete evidence of how they related, so near yet so far from each other? thanks.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 15, 2005, 01:30:12 AM
Pakula's bio mentions a letter Vicky wrote to QV with Vicky commenting on how plain she looked in comparison with her younger sister.  Vicky also wrote to QV asking for funds for Alice before she became grand duchess.  Alice doesn't seem like the type to be jealous over status to me, but I imagine she might have envied Vicky's warm relationship with their mother.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 15, 2005, 09:34:00 AM
Part of the "funds" QV presented Alice with was the stunning Hessian tiara that is so popular. Did QV give Vicky jewels? I am not sure any of the threads discussing jewels, and specifically tiaras, included any that were owned and used by Vicky. Are there any? thanks,
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on September 15, 2005, 09:51:36 PM
Just a brief reminder of the FA's policy on quoting photos--especially those already on the same page. It eats up a lot of space and those with dial-up (which I find myself with temporarily and it's not fun) have trouble accessing the page--sometimes it won't even load.

Now, with my non-moderator hat, I have another image of this gathering if someone would be kind enough to post it. While I have the aforesaid cursed dial-up I can't load items into my photobucket account to post.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RickV on September 15, 2005, 11:31:47 PM
I've removed mine. That photo is from a site I found about a woman named Ada who worked for the Empress Frederick as an "aide" to her daugher Sophie. Perhaps someone else here knows more about her:

http://www.fbarnard.org.uk/Prussia/prussia2/Further%20Homburg.htm
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2005, 12:43:53 PM
http://www.fbarnard.org.uk/Prussia/prussia2/Further%20Homburg.htm

I don't get anything.  Is something missing?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RickV on September 16, 2005, 03:19:42 PM
Works for me. Try this one:

http://www.fbarnard.org.uk
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 17, 2005, 11:26:56 AM
Part of the "funds" QV presented Alice with was the stunning Hessian tiara that is so popular. Did QV give Vicky jewels? I am not sure any of the threads discussing jewels, and specifically tiaras, included any that were owned and used by Vicky. Are there any? thanks,
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Alicky1872 on September 17, 2005, 07:31:43 PM
YES- people, please--there is no need for such large photos! It makes it very hard for me to see what has been written, because I have to scroll across the screen!


Quote
Apologize in advance if this has  been covered, but with regard to the relationship between Vicky and her sister Alice in Hesse, my sense from some items I have read is that Alice felt a bit 'beneathe' her sister and there was a slightly strained relationship due to Vicky's status versus that of Alice's. Any concrete evidence of how they related, so near yet so far from each other? thanks.


The following letter written by Vicky to Fritz, gives a bit of insight into her feelings about Alice...

'I unfortunately do not have the talent and am not clever enough to say what I do not think. .. Alice acts, by contrast, like a little smart lady --and that's why she has a tremendous amount of influence. She is right & I am wrong, for it would be much cleverer to hide opinions that only irritate others & the assertion of which is not of the slightest benefit. During our childhood it was always so--she was always the docile and loveable one, yielding with bonne grace, easy to praise & almost never getting into trouble. How different things were with your little fat girl, who always has the talent for "putting her foot in it", for getting punished, scolded, smacked & disgraced at every opportunity--for being considered the hardest to educate& to control--& for being deeply unhappy most of the time.'
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on September 17, 2005, 09:45:51 PM
Quote
I've removed mine. That photo is from a site I found about a woman named Ada who worked for the Empress Frederick as an "aide" to her daugher Sophie. Perhaps someone else here knows more about her:


You don't have to remove photos. By quoting I meant repeating a photo that's been previously posted. The only thing the FA requests is that a) we keep them to reasonable sizes because while they're wonderful to look at, it causes people with dial-up a lot of problems and b) unless absolutely necessary not to quote photos, especially ones that are on the same page. With threads that get to be very large, it's sometimes necessary to quote a photo for reference but please just do it sparingly.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 18, 2005, 10:31:13 AM
that is a very interesting items, Mrs. Eddy, from one of Vicky's letters. It suggests to me Vicky is admitting that she if forthright and not very political about expressing her views and opinions. During her era, her "liberal" views expressed openly and without  concern for 'putting her foot in it' obviously cost her much support and alliances. Her apparent squeaky wheel approach to making her views public, from childhood to adulthood, parallels much of today's political agenda as well. Unfortunately for Vicky, though, the groundswell of supporters for her and Fritz' ideas was severely limited in the German court and she was shunned. Alice, who smiled and went along with the veritable program, seems to have been, in Vicky's eyes, a less frustrated and more happy person.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Alicky1872 on September 18, 2005, 11:01:56 AM
Yes, it seems as if Vicky is accusing Alice of being a "Miss Goody-Two-Shoes" when it comes to their mother as well. She said  that Alice did 'everything imaginable , or so she tells Mama, and Mama believes it as well--ever increasing Mama's love for her.' Despite any jealousy Vicky may have felt towards Alice at the time, I'm sure that it was Vicky who shared a closer bond with Queen Victoria, as their correspondance over the years suggests. I always got the impression that Alice's relationship with their Queen was quite strained, at least in later years.

By the way, all the leters quoted by me were published in 'Young Wilhelm' by John C. G. Rohl--an EXCELLENT, highly recommended book.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 18, 2005, 01:20:40 PM
Thanks once again Mrs. Eddy. I've been wanting to get that book on Wilhelm.

Would you say QV was more generous with Alice than Vicky? While the QV and Vicky relationship seems more involved and deep, QV gave much jewelry to Alice, did she not? Did QV believe the house of Hohenzollern was wealthy enought to support Vicky's needs?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Alicky1872 on September 18, 2005, 02:22:59 PM
Quote
Thanks once again Mrs. Eddy. I've been wanting to get that book on Wilhelm.

Would you say QV was more generous with Alice than Vicky? While the QV and Vicky relationship seems more involved and deep, QV gave much jewelry to Alice, did she not? Did QV believe the house of Hohenzollern was wealthy enought to support Vicky's needs?


The book can be hard to find, and is very expensive! Upwards of £95 or so I am told, as it was published by Cambridge University Press, a small and specialised printing house. I was lucky enough to find it in my local library. The ISBN number, if anyone is interested is
0 521 49752 3.

I don't know if QV was more generous with Alice than Vicky. I suppose she probably found Alice easier to deal with when the girls were young, due to Alice's eager to please attitude. Vicky was more willful, passionate, easily excitable, on the whole MUCH more like Victoria herself...so the two were bound to butt heads. By the way, the book does not give a date for the quoted letter written by Vicky, but I suspect it was written within a few years after her marriage with Fritz--when Alice would have been the oldest girl at home. During that time, Alice and QV became very close, and indeed Alice was the one who helped QV through her mother's death, and some months later, through Albert's death. By all accounts, Alice was a natural born 'nurse' and QV would have found her company soothing and comforting. Vicky, while most likely not wishing roles were reversed with Alice, probably grew resentful of their closeness.

I'm afraid I'm not the one to ask about jewelery though! Sorry!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on September 19, 2005, 05:20:32 AM
Any jealousy between Vicky & Alice must stem from the realationship between Albert & Vicky. No doubt Albert was partial to Vicky.  However, had Albert lived longer there is no doubt in my mind doubt Alice would have received the same amount attention from Albert in preparation for her position as Duchess of Hesse once Vicky left for Germany and she became the oldest daughter residing at the palace.  Maybe she did receive some attention from Albert prior to his death.

Albert was very keen in preparing his daughters for marriage and their positions as Consorts.

Remember, Albert wanted a United Democratic Germany and saw his educated daughters as one of many tools to accomplish this goal.

TampaBay

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 19, 2005, 09:07:10 AM
Are there any documents or other writings/speeches etc by Prince Albert and/or Vickyand Fritz that detail their visions of a Unitied Democratic Germany? Was this vision essentially what did emerge as the German Empire, or did Albert have the vision of Fritz to go further and create what we now know as the EU?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Alicky1872 on September 19, 2005, 11:20:57 AM
Quote
Are there any documents or other writings/speeches etc by Prince Albert and/or Vicky and Fritz that detail their visions of a United Democratic Germany? Was this vision essentially what did emerge as the German Empire, or did Albert have the vision of Fritz to go further and create what we now know as the EU?


I'll let Vicky speak for herself on this subject...

'Unfortunately in Prussia one can count on the fingers of one hand the people & especially the military men, who possess sufficent sense and independance of spirit to counter the current dreadful system. Most are too limited, too stupid & too full of prejudice to see where the politics of reaction leads & those who understand it's consequence are not in the right positions, or do not have the inner rigour & love of truth or patriotism which would allow them to profess their conviction & thus the opposition unfortunately remains solely in the hands of the middle and lowest classses--& the this causes the sad but profound contradiction & discord in our poor country! Until that changes, the state will continue to be sick & if it is not changed from above, then it will be changed from below--& perhaps not in the best way!'

written in 1862 to Fritz:
'It is our sole task to make our entire dear country perfect & strong & powerful by means of liberal practical institutions & through order & righteousness--an example for all other states. Then we can undertake anything we want--our world will then have due weight--& we will then have the right to urge others to follow our example. Then we will also have the trust of Germany and Europe, something we as yet lack. If we then still need to expand our power by means of foreign policy, we can then do so with some prospect of success.'

When Bismark was elected, dashing any hopes of Fritz and Vicky coming to the throne and putting Prince Albert's vision in place, Vicky found herself 'rigid with horror' and wrote to her husband, 'If it really is true then may God have mercy on us--for it means placing the noose around our own necks.' ....'(Bismark) to govern by himself , to terrorise & dominate the king, & in order to squash everything useful & good beneath his heel, to preserve a weak, discordant, impotent and rediculous Prussia & to constrain utterly the free development of our inner and outer strength! I am convinced that just as I sit here today, the King of Prussia could be the mightiest monrach in Europe & that through him Germany could be powerful, large & free to dictate laws to the world, and my ambition will not be slacked as long as that is not the case!'...'

Vicky and Fritz hoped that their sons would learn from their example, and in 1864, she wrote 'If they have but one drop of my blood in their veins, or have inherited a spark of English spirit from me, then they could become free thinking & liberal independant persons.'...'As long as I live, I will devote all my powers to ensuring that both the boys (Willy and Heinrich) grow up with a thorough disgust & true abhorrence of all the ruinous & absurd principles of the Reaction.'

IF ONLY!

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 19, 2005, 12:34:34 PM
If only, indeed. Quite a chilly and sad indication of how, likely, two disasterous world wars may have been avoided had power been in the right hands. Of course, had Vicky and Fritz succeeded, the non-Bismarckian order would have been replaced with different types of political problems.

Was Prince Albert considered an 'traitor' to the Prussian and German nobility? Or, did he have a great deal of support even though his influence was limited?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on September 20, 2005, 11:00:22 AM
Quote
Are there any documents or other writings/speeches etc by Prince Albert and/or Vickyand Fritz that detail their visions of a Unitied Democratic Germany? Was this vision essentially what did emerge as the German Empire, or did Albert have the vision of Fritz to go further and create what we now know as the EU?


In 1848 Albert told spoke with the future William I of his dream of a united federal German:  "a modern constitutionalist industrial version of the Holy Roman Empire." But Albert was also well aware at the time that Prussia and everything Prussian was very unpopular in England and later, with the marriage of Vicky & Fritz, hoped to improve relations between the two countries, seeing them as leading Europe into a peaceful almost halcyon era.
I think his first hope was of a unified Germany, but I would say, yes - out of that, he envisaged something like the modern EU. (There must be more quotations to support this & I shall look for them!!)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on September 20, 2005, 11:09:29 AM
I have the Letters of the Prince Consort which have some examples, I believe. When I unpacked I'll dig it out unless someone else has it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on September 20, 2005, 04:38:07 PM
Oh, please do quote from them (and on the Windsor thread) whenever you have the time  :D!

I didn't know they were available - please could you write the title of the collection, publisher etc. ?  :)  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on September 20, 2005, 08:57:56 PM
Quote
Oh, please do quote from them (and on the Windsor thread) whenever you have the time  :D!

I didn't know they were available - please could you write the title of the collection, publisher etc. ?  :)  


sure thing BT!  :)

Jagow ( Selected And Edited By), Dr. Kurt, Ed

Letters Of The Prince Consort: 1831-1861-published By Authority Of His Majesty The King

pub 1938 New York: E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc.

It's readily available online for a good price.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 21, 2005, 09:24:39 AM
Thanks BT and GDElla! Such information about the goals and visions of Albert and later Albert and Vicky and Fritz simply pain the soul that their objectives were unattained. I guess, from an American standpoint, a successful EU in the late 1800s would have preempted the growth and power development, at least somewhat,of the U.S. but I think the a Holy Roman Empire industrial power, friendly to its neighbors and run democratically would have truly cause an historical sharp turn onto a different road.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on September 21, 2005, 10:33:45 AM
Thank you very much grandduchessella!  :D

Yes, Herr Kaiser, I agree. If Albert's dream had been realized, how much more peaceful the last century might have been!

Albert was, I think, so far ahead of his time in so many ways (including the way he educated his daughters) that his ideas were not taken up as they might have been. Had he not been a prince he would have made a great statesman. It is small wonder that Vicky was so close to him and longed to implement his ideas in Prussia.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 21, 2005, 11:01:53 AM
Fritz was on the same page as Albert, which is an interesting phenomenon since Fritz was brought up in the Prussian court, unexposed to much "liberal" thinking of the time.

In fact, I thought I read that it was Fritz who dreamed of a Holy Roman Empire style democratic union first. He chose his name Frederick III as a direct link to that ideal. The revolutions of the late 1840s must have seeped into the royal thinking and visionaries such as Fritz and Albert paid major attention to what was going on among the masses as well as industrially. Interesting how these ideas came from German princes and the Marks and Engels writings, of course, were German based.

What is most exciting about the type of people Albert and Fritz were is that they appear similar to what we would view now as top business leaders. They saw where the world was/should be going and wanted to jump on it and help it move in that direction with the belief there was plenty of benefit for everyone. The royals who resisted felt change was only to diminish their power and/or riches; in the end they lost most of both anyway.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bluetoria on September 22, 2005, 11:50:28 AM
What an interesting post Herr Kaiser! I agree with you that both Fritz and Prince Albert combined the best entrepreneurial spirit with a deep rooted philanthropy. I believe that Prince Albert was also a true 'renaissance' man. I think he was one of the most intelligent royals to ever grace the British Royal Family (I would think he was cleverer than Fritz) and it is a great pity that it took the country so long to accept him....and that he didn't live longer. Had he been of the next generation, and in a position of greater power, who knows how differently world events might have turned out.  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: joan_d on October 01, 2005, 04:08:49 PM
Prince Albert was without doubt one of the greatest men, never mind royalty, that England has ever had.  That he died at such an early age was a tragedy for the country.   He achieved so much in his short life and would have continued to be a force for good.   He was just so far ahead of his time and it is certainly the UK's good fortune that QV chose him as her husband.  We often refer to the 'Victorian Era' but really it was Albert's era as his wife never deviated from his wishes.  What a man !!!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 04, 2005, 07:14:46 PM
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/fritzinWiesbaden2.jpg)

This statue of Kaiser Frederick III is in Wiesbaden and the only one I am aware of that singularly honors Fritz in a public place. It survived WWII, but one of the conquering soldiers shot old Fritz in the knee one drunken night. You can see the hole; never repaired.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on October 05, 2005, 08:26:15 AM
I have a question--forgive me for a being a dolt. ::)


Was Vicky popular in her adopted country??
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 05, 2005, 08:52:58 AM
You're not a dolt.  :)

It was a mixed bag for poor Vicky. She was definitely NOT popular amongst those who controlled the government and the conservative elements of society. She seemed to English to them and was always attempting to reform things the status quo didn't want changed.

I don't know how the average German felt about her--she really wasn't given much of a chance on the public stage as Crown Princess and then was Empres for such a brief time then pushed aside as Dowager Empress. It was a real loss to the country. She worked behind the scenes in establishing schools and hospitals and the like and I don't know how much of this filtered down to the public. She didn't have the role as military hero that gave Fritz such popularity despite his equal sidelining by conservative elements.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 05, 2005, 10:20:37 AM
Quote
I have a question--forgive me for a being a dolt. ::)


Was Vicky popular in her adopted country??



I agree with GDElla. History, even during the time when she was alive, tended to ignor Vicky. In the later 20th century and now, 'everyone' knows the name Kaiser Wilhelm and generally who he was, but few know his mother was the daughter of QV. To me, this tragic black hole was in large part due to her husband's inability to favor true support of his father. Fritz was a loyal and honorable son and Crown Prince who, I believe, suffered from that syndrome of never really feeling his father thought him good, worthy, capable, successful. Fritz continued to attempt to gain WI's approval, including the historical blunder of the century when he talked WI out of resigning years before his death. Too bad Fritz was a good and faithful son.

Vicky, hence, was linked to the same image and fate. Interestingly, Vicky and Fritz were a true "couple" much like QV and Albert. Few other monarchs embraced their spouses in such a way; clearly not amongst the Prussians. They thought they bought an emperor's wife, not a co-ruler, and reeled from the thought.

The true beauty of Vicky and Fritz' relationship as equals is exemplified, in part, by the main stained glass window in the grand staircase at Friederickhof, seen below. Victoria and Frederich. Together always.




(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/Kronbergwindow3.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 05, 2005, 10:26:30 AM
GrandduchessElla...great photo of the Fritz statue in Bremen; I have not seen this. Is he sculpted in shorts or some sort of loin cloth? It looks like he is without shirt or long pants.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on October 14, 2005, 12:10:42 PM
I know this is somewhat morbid, but I did find a deathbed photograph of Fritz:
(http://www.deadfred.com/images/fred2.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 14, 2005, 12:16:07 PM
Quote
GrandduchessElla...great photo of the Fritz statue in Bremen; I have not seen this. Is he sculpted in shorts or some sort of loin cloth? It looks like he is without shirt or long pants.


It's hard to tell but he looks like a medieval knight I think.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 14, 2005, 06:23:56 PM
Jfkhaos, I have my doubts as to whether that's Fritz in the deathbed photo... Even taking into account that his face would have been quite drawn, it doesn't look right to me. First of all the shape of the nose is wrong. The man in your photo has a very hooked nose, whereas Fritz didn't,

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/fritzside.jpg)

And even to the end of his life, Fritz's beard was a lot fuller than the man's in your photo. What's puzzling me is the fact that the 'signature' at the bottom of your photo does resemble Fritz's... ??? Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 14, 2005, 11:43:49 PM
The photos is on sale on ebay right now and it's ID'd as Fritz. There's a deathbed photo of Wilhelm I as well. Last week there was another deathbed photo of Fritz and it looks like the same series.

Perhaps the toll his illness took on him threw his face into starker relief and made the bones stand out more?

I wouldn't be surprised in the last months if Fritz's hair started to thin out. Didn't Vicky write something about that?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: TampaBay on October 15, 2005, 09:05:33 AM
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The photos is on sale on ebay right now and it's ID'd as Fritz.


ebay is as about as reliable as Wikipedia!  ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Emilia on October 15, 2005, 11:59:27 AM
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I agree with GDElla. History, even during the time when she was alive, tended to ignor Vicky. In the later 20th century and now, 'everyone' knows the name Kaiser Wilhelm and generally who he was, but few know his mother was the daughter of QV.

Wilhelm II. is still quite known in Germany, but 99% of the Germans don´t know either Fritz or Vicky. Sad that so few people seem to be interested in history!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 15, 2005, 01:17:09 PM
Fritz' appearance could definitely change that dramatically from cancer. It is horrifying to see how such a disease ravages every aspect of a person's appearance. And, once deceased when the tissues are not engorged with blood flow, it looks worse. So, in spite of the stark changes, I can most definitely believe this is poor Fritz. Quite frankly, it is the nose that always seems to take on the most difference in cancer patients. As mostly non boney tissue, it disintegrates to a totally different shape. Yuk. I prefer remembering Fritz as a vital and handsome knight in shining armor.  I bet a photo of Vicky in death would be as devastatingly unrecognizable.
Here is the set of windows of the room in which Fritz died.


(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/Fritzroom.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Caleb on October 22, 2005, 10:12:19 AM
Wasn't Vicky Prince Albert's pride & joy? I'm not saying that he looked down on his other children, but Vicky being the oldest, could be seen as a young married woman, unlike the rest of Victoria & Albert's other children who were married after Albert's death.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 22, 2005, 10:47:33 AM
Vicky was, indeed, Albert's pride and joy in many ways; DGElla can expand on this and please also see the many posts about this relationship.

Ironically, each was way above the "competition" in their circles, yet neither was truly able to control the power bases that were within their sights, but not their grasps.

Albert, as Consort, was QV's main mentor, advisor, partners, guider, and husband in the truest sense. But, not King, which he was eminently qualified to be. In fact, he should have been Prime Minister. But, he was the German Consort and only prince.

Vicky, had she been a boy, would have been a terrific King. She had all the qualities to follow in her father's footsteps. Like Albert, she had a demographic flaw; her gender. Her beloved husband Frederich was, by all indications, going to run his empire with Vicky as an equal and respected co-ruler, much like QV and Albert related. But, the premature death of Fritz kaboshed this historical opportunity to literally change the world.

So, two people, each the apple of the other's eye, each capable of accomplishing great things, but each kept away from the power seat that would have led to the realization of their goals.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Caleb on October 22, 2005, 01:33:11 PM
But why couldn't Vicky succeed to the throne, as Queen Victoria II ? I know it wasn't because of the fact that women were barred from succession, unlike in Russia, after Czar Paul's decree, but in England things were different, just take a look at the succession of Queen Elizabeth II. Speaking of women succeeding, couldn't have Nicholas II reversed Czar Paul's decree about women in the succession?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Aliss_Kande on October 22, 2005, 01:34:32 PM
Vicky didn't become queen because she had a younger brother.  In England, girls only become queen when they have no brothers to succeed the throne.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 22, 2005, 01:35:51 PM
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But why couldn't Vicky succeed to the throne, as Queen Victoria II ? I know it wasn't because of the fact that women were barred from succession, unlike in Russia, after Czar Paul's decree, but in England things were different, just take a look at the succession of Queen Elizabeth II. Speaking of women succeeding, couldn't have Nicholas II reversed Czar Paul's decree about women in the succession?


She could have, had she been QV's and Albert's only child, or if they had had no boys - but since Bertie was born, and the British operate under the 'boys before girls in order of age' system, Bertie displaced her as heir. Until he was about 11 or 12, I think, in fact, he always though Vicky would be queen, like their mother had been.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 22, 2005, 02:58:49 PM
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Until he was about 11 or 12, I think, in fact, he always though Vicky would be queen, like their mother had been.


I wonder if Bertie's change of heart/mind was a result of shear and utter desire for the power and prestige or if he actually considered himself to be the best, next monarch?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 22, 2005, 04:04:17 PM
It probably had more to do with just getting older. Until then he probably thought that Vicky as the oldest would be Queen. After all, his mother was the ruling monarch, why wouldn't Vicky? As a younger child he probably didn't realize the facts of the situation. Plus Vicky was being given an education as thorough as his own to prepare her for her future role as Queen consort.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Caleb on October 25, 2005, 02:46:09 PM
Vicky and Alice also seem to be two of the more practical of Victoria & Albert's children. I'm sure Vicky would have helped her mother Queen Victoria, after PA's death, but she was busy raising her own children. Also, was Vicky at the deathbed of PA at Windsor?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 25, 2005, 05:32:50 PM
No she wasn't. She was expecting Henry at the time and forbidden to travel. Fritz went afterwards and was a major support to QV. I don't think there was time to get there before. They didn't hear until 13 Dec of how bad his illness was. PA's private secretary sent a telegram to Fritz advising him to prepare Vicky for her father's death and he died the following evening. The news reached them that evening. Vicky wrote that it was a 'torture not to be described' to be away from her mother at such a time.

Vicky wrote that 'My darling is with you--I like to think it; only I dread Monday--a heart like his that feels so deeply and warmly and nerves that are not srong, always make me dread strong emotion for him, and he says this has been the first grief in his life.'

QV: "Fritz--dear, kind, excellent Fritz--to whom I talked very fully, very openly, can tell you all, and all about adored Papa's dreadful illness!...Dear Fritz brings you precious hair and relics.'

Vicky: 'Fritz writes to me, so overwhelmed...his loving heart is so attached to you, he would do anything for you. He loved Papa as his own father, admired him as he does no one else, and loves you as tenderly as his own mother. Any kindness of yours is not thrown away on that best and kindest of hearts'. [unlike his own parents]

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 26, 2005, 02:45:34 PM
What a man. Fritz gets more glowing reviews and comments from the women and men during his life than any other. Such wonderful compliments from QV about her son in law! And Vicky's praise reveals her deep love for her husband and soul mate.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 12, 2005, 02:54:38 PM
Did Vicky receive any notable jewelry from QV, in a similiar level of the tiara QV gave to Alice? I have not seen or heard much about Vicky's jewelry collection in terms of either her interest in such or its extent or value or impressiveness. Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 03:26:46 PM
I remember reading that Vicky received four brooches from each of her sisters all of them same design but each one set with a different stone  :)  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 12, 2005, 04:16:14 PM
That is a nice-sounding gift. Did she have any noteworthy tiaras or other gems? On one level, the image of Fritz and Vicky is not one of jewel-showiness and so it would not surprise me that they did not have an eye to collecting or accumulating such items.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 12, 2005, 04:32:58 PM
There was a discussion once on another board about Vicky's jewels. I think it was brought up that Vicky had received a tiara as a wedding gift and perhaps it was then left to Moretta who lost it in her disastrous marriage to Zubkov. (Moretta lost quite a few family heirlooms from Queen Victoria, Fritz and Vicky and their whereabouts are currently unknown) Other pieces that Vicky had she left to Mossy--some of which were involved in the Hessian jewelry theft in 1945. I have some magazines from Vicky's wedding I'll try to look through for descriptions of wedding gifts.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2005, 07:14:05 PM
No I don;t think that Vicky had a lot of jewelry. Her collection came from 3 sources. 1. Vicky's wedding gifts from England and those given by her in laws. 2. The collection of private jewels given to her by Queen Elisabeth of Prussia, who decided to give them to her instead of the usual practice of passing them on to the crown jewels. 3. The Prussian crown jewels. Vickly lost the third catagory as Augusta kept hers and passed them to Dona instead. Also she gave a lot of her daughters. Once Vicky told Sophie that she will have to wait for her to die, as she does not have any more jewels to give to her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 13, 2005, 07:00:29 AM
I was always of the impression that Vicky had a large jewel collection. She inherited the magnificent ones from
Queen Elisabeth  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2005, 11:17:08 AM
I don't know how manificent that collection was, since there is no catalogue of Queen Elise's jewels. Also vicky seldom appeared in manificent jewels unlike later Dona did. I only seen her wearing the Orange pearls from the Prussian Imperial collection.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 13, 2005, 01:08:44 PM
Yes, I am hard pressed to find pics or recall seeing Vicky bejewelled with impressive ornamentations, particularly noteworthy tiaras, even comparable to Alice. I think Vicky was likely more interested in establishing the image of her and Fritzes political platform which would have been substantially less glittery than other royals.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 13, 2005, 02:18:20 PM
I do get the impression that Vicky liked jewels though. She mentions in her letters how she was treated to a show of the Dowager Empress of Russias fabulous jewels, whose diamonds were apparently magnificent (as you would expect) according to Vicky.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 13, 2005, 06:16:03 PM
One of the few photo sessions that show Vicky in a tiara are from the crowning of Wilhelm I.

Even Dona, who had more jewelry than Vicky, didn't have nearly the amount or quality that other royal houses did.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2005, 07:21:18 PM
True, but they do have some nice pearls, diamonds and some rubies according to Lord Twinings impressive book. Also I think Crown Princess Cecilie has a lot of jewels too coming from her Romanov mother. Vicky on the other hand like books and painting/ antiques more.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 14, 2005, 09:54:42 AM
Were the Prussians unable to afford a big collection of jewelry as their counterparts did, or was it their custom to not be into that aspect of the royal living?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2005, 07:58:05 PM
One has to remember that Prussia was a military state and money were put into that directly than other forms of luxury. Oueen Louise of Prussia sold her jewels to pay for arms against Napoleon I. She encourage other ladies to do the same. In return they wore rod iron jewels as a kind of patriot expression. In London at the British Museum, you can still see some of those rod iron ornaments on display.

I think the jewels came mostly from the Royal Bride's doweries. I think Empress Augusta (of Weimar) had a good collection, especially since her mother was a Romanov.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on November 15, 2005, 10:39:41 AM
In Hannah Pakula's book, there is a list of some of the jewelry Vicky received upon her marriage from her side of the family.  I will try to post it this evening.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2005, 01:51:20 PM
Thanks. I get the impression that the jewels Vicky got were nice but not spectacular. The Prussian side was not overly generous too. When Sophie ask for more jewels, Vicky had to say she does not have any left. (she had already married 2 daughters (Sophie & Charlotte) and two more remaing-Victoria and Margaret).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 02, 2005, 03:35:32 PM
Why then was QV not more generous with Vicky? QV had given Alice a stunning tiara, at least, and with Vicky's position, I would think QV would have wanted Vicky to have a decent amount/quality of jewels befitting her role as both the Empress of Germany as well as Great Britain's Princess Royal.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on December 02, 2005, 04:11:23 PM
If I remember correctly, and I have honestly been most forgetful in obtaining the list of jewelry that Vicky received at her wedding (and I read abt Vicky every night, currently Daphne Bennett's book) I want to say that Vicky received a parure of diamonds and opals.  There is more, and I know she received jewelry from Wilhelm and Augusta but it was nothing close to a tiara.  I will look tonight...I promise!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2005, 09:23:10 PM
I think Vicky herself cared more for books, painting and object de art than jewels and dresses. She later bought some jewels from an Italian jeweler whose syle is gothic revial. I think she like the style than just the stones. Also Queen Elisabeth of Prussia also left her entire collection of private jewels to her, so Vicky was not  deprived of them at all. :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 02, 2005, 11:27:19 PM
Quote
If I remember correctly, and I have honestly been most forgetful in obtaining the list of jewelry that Vicky received at her wedding (and I read abt Vicky every night, currently Daphne Bennett's book) I want to say that Vicky received a parure of diamonds and opals.  There is more, and I know she received jewelry from Wilhelm and Augusta but it was nothing close to a tiara.  I will look tonight...I promise!


That could well be--wasn't Prince Albert very fond of opals?

I need to dig out the wedding issue--it listed some wedding gifts.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2005, 10:17:10 AM
Yes..I think Vicky would have recieved some opals from her parents. However it quickly became out of fashion. Queen Alexandra took from her wedding parure the opals and replaced them with rubies...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 03, 2005, 09:31:39 PM
I thought her wedding set was pearls and that it was the Oriental Circlet (which EII just wore for the first time) that she replaced the opals with rubies.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 04, 2005, 12:37:52 PM
Whose wedding set was the Oriental Circlet? Vicky's? Have you any photos of her in splendid jewels?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on December 04, 2005, 02:08:28 PM
I finally managed to locate the passage in Hannah Pakula's book concerning the wedding presents Vicky received in 1858.  

Fritz:  a necklace of diamonds and turquoise
Wilhelm and Augusta:  a string of thirty-six "enormous" pearls
Frederick Wilhelm IV and Elisabeth:  a diamond diadem
Duchess of Kent:  a dressing case in gold and corals
King Leopold:  Brussels lace
Queen Victoria:  a diamond corsage and three diamond clusters
Prince Albert:  a bracelet and pendant in large emeralds and diamonds
Queen Victoria and Prince Albert:  a parure of opals and diamonds
Alice, Helena, Louise, and Beatrice:  a brooch worked in the same pattern from each, one with diamonds, one with rubies, one with sapphires, and one with emeralds

Queen Victoria wore the George IV diadem.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 04, 2005, 03:23:48 PM
Quote
Whose wedding set was the Oriental Circlet? Vicky's? Have you any photos of her in splendid jewels?


I was referencing the comment right above mine--it was Queen Alexandra's whose wedding set was pearls. The Oriental Circlet was a tiara of Queen Victoria's that Alexandra had reset with rubies in place of the original opals that Prince Albert had put in.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 04, 2005, 03:25:03 PM
Quote
I finally managed to locate the passage in Hannah Pakula's book concerning the wedding presents Vicky received in 1858.  

Fritz:  a necklace of diamonds and turquoise
Wilhelm and Augusta:  a string of thirty-six "enormous" pearls
Frederick Wilhelm IV and Elisabeth:  a diamond diadem
Duchess of Kent:  a dressing case in gold and corals
King Leopold:  Brussels lace
Queen Victoria:  a diamond corsage and three diamond clusters
Prince Albert:  a bracelet and pendant in large emeralds and diamonds
Queen Victoria and Prince Albert:  a parure of opals and diamonds
Alice, Helena, Louise, and Beatrice:  a brooch worked in the same pattern from each, one with diamonds, one with rubies, one with sapphires, and one with emeralds

Queen Victoria wore the George IV diadem.


Thanks for that. I wonder if the diamond diadem was the one Vicky wore to the crowning of Wilhelm I--one of the few times she's been photographed in full regalia.

This isn't a very good likeness of Vicky but does show some jewels--could this be the pearl necklace from Wilhelm & Augusta?

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/germany/B728.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 05, 2005, 10:18:24 AM
I wonder if the diamond diadem was the one Vicky wore to the crowning of Wilhelm I--one of the few times she's been photographed in full regalia.



Do you have this photo? I checked back on the thread and do not seem to find it. Thanks much!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2005, 10:29:52 AM
No...It is not the same one.

I have seen the one photo you mentioned. It was on the jacket cover of "Dearest Child" by Roger Fulford. The first volume of letters between QV & Vicky...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 05, 2005, 06:23:32 PM
Vicky really looks at her best in these pictures. Is it the same tiara in each of these two as well as the one a few posts earlier? Seems close. I think it compares nicely with that of Alice, yes?

Regarding the cross, I'd like to know about it too. The Hohenzollerns took very seriously their role as head of the Lutheran Church and crosses appear everywhere on their jewelry and government and personal imageries.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2005, 07:30:40 PM
I think the only real tiara was the one in the photo. The other two are only artist impressions. Don't think Vicky have or cared too much about them... ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 06, 2005, 09:58:14 AM
Quote
I think the only real tiara was the one in the photo. The other two are only artist impressions. Don't think Vicky have or cared too much about them... ;D


I've noticed that painted portraits often include jewelry that is not necessarily close to actual appearance. Was it common to add tiaras and other jewelry etc to royal portraits that in reality did not exist? Or was it just that the artists took license with the look and added their own ideas? Either way, did the painter control the look and outcome of the work or did the royal personage? Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 28, 2006, 01:35:46 PM
Following the death of beloved Fritz, two questions emerge about Vickie:

1) she had every reason, from the way she'd been treated by so many during Fritz' life, to want to "run home to Mamma". Why did Vickie not retire to England where the trials and tribulations would have been much less? Was there anything that literally prevented this?

2) since she did stay in Germany, why did she chose to live in Hessen as opposed to the hereditary homeland of her husband in Prussia?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on February 28, 2006, 02:03:24 PM
In answer to your questions, HerrKaiser:

1)  Vicky did consider retiring to England after the death of her husband, but she knew in her heart that everything she and Fritz had worked for and strived towards would be lost, and she also realized that it would be more difficult for the Bismarck camarilla to erase Fritz from the public's memory while she was still resident in Germany.

2)  When Fritz died, Vicky didn't end up with any property around the royal domain in Potsdam.  She originally had the Villa Liegnitz, which QV deemed too small for someone of Vicky's stature, and William eventually decided he needed the villa for his gentlemen-in-waiting.  She had Bornstedt, but William announced that the property belonged to the State and not to Vicky.  She had the occassional use of the castle in Bad Homburg (I believe as her dower house) and she was able to stay in the Old Schloss in Potsdam when she received previous permission from her son.  She bought the property in the Taunus with a legacy from an old friend and built Friedrichshof.  Personally, although it has been stated that this home was within travelling distance of wherever she need to go (Frankfurt, Berlin, etc.), I think she moved her to move out of William's orbit and restore what was left of her life.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on February 28, 2006, 07:50:53 PM
Regarding a move to England, I think there was an element of thinking that if she returned it would just prove everyone right who claimed that she never loved Germany and was always an Englishwoman at heart. Plus Mossy and her children, Henry, Irene and their sons and Moretta were all in Germany and they, especially the former, brought her a great deal of comfort.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 28, 2006, 08:04:39 PM
Did Vickie encourage and try to develop good and lasting relationships between Mossy and her English cousins? Or did Mossy land up a entrenched German princess in character?

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 01, 2006, 08:12:27 AM
I believe Mossy was very loyal and kind. She was particularly close to Sophie.

In a way I almost wish Vicky had returned to England after Fritz's death. But I think she made the right decision in staying in Germany, even though they were horrible to her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 02, 2006, 09:46:09 AM
How sweet she looks in the sketch. Her dress is reminscent of her wedding dress as well, keeping with how young and fresh she was then.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on March 02, 2006, 10:13:06 AM
Given the fact that there are statues, memorial churches, etc, to former ruling monarchs and spouses (Frederick and Louise, Wilhelm and Augusta, Fritz), are there any public monuments to Vicky in Germany?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 02, 2006, 11:35:32 AM
Nobody´s world is black and white, not even Vicky´s. In the will of Wilhelm I she wasn´t even mentioned. His widow was to have 3 million mark, Dona 1 mil mark, Friedrich 1 mil mark and his granchild Heinrich large estates and the entire silver collection. Who comes to Vicky´s and her four daughters´aid but Bismarck (with or without his "camarilla")? In seven days he changes the will so that Friedrich gets 9 mil mark and thus can give his wife 1 mil and each of his daughter 2 mil as dowry. Bismarck tells Vicky to invest her money quickly outside of Germany, probably hoping that she would leave Germany with the money.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 02, 2006, 12:09:07 PM
When you read Lord Twining´s list of the jewels Queen Elisabeth left to the crown, expressively stating that they were to be at Vicky´s disposition, I can´t help but being impressed. The pearls in one of von Angeli´s portraits are not fake but very rare. Of course Germany never held colonies where gems were mined so they never could have asked the question one of Vicky´s later relatives asked: "Did we wear this tiara before?"
As for the jewellery crosses HerrKaiser asked about I think they were fashionable at some time or another during the mid 19th century. I know that the RF of Sweden still has got one large with diamonds and Louise Mountbatten wore one with color stones in January 1924 at the opening of the Swedish Parliament. Later I´ve seen it worn by her sister Alice together with her nun´s habit and her niece Sophie Hanover.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on March 02, 2006, 12:32:22 PM
Wettin, I know that Queen Elisabeth left jewelry to Vicky, but are you able to elaborate on what pieces were left?  I have only read a general description which usually follows the line that Augusta was mad that Elisabeth left the jewels to Vicky.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 02, 2006, 01:34:21 PM
Yes, I could elaborate but only by citing Twining p. 508. It´s a great pity if you havn´t got the book because there are several B&W pictures taken at an inventory at the time of Wilhelm II:s jubilee in 1913 and I´m not sure about the copywrite issues.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 02, 2006, 01:56:22 PM
Quote
Nobody´s world is black and white, not even Vicky´s. In the will of Wilhelm I she wasn´t even mentioned. His widow was to have 3 million mark, Dona 1 mil mark, Friedrich 1 mil mark and his granchild Heinrich large estates and the entire silver collection. Who comes to Vicky´s and her four daughters´aid but Bismarck (with or without his "camarilla")? In seven days he changes the will so that Friedrich gets 9 mil mark and thus can give his wife 1 mil and each of his daughter 2 mil as dowry. Bismarck tells Vicky to invest her money quickly outside of Germany, probably hoping that she would leave Germany with the money.


Very intersting and many thanks Wettin. Do you suppose that Bismarck's tampering with the will of WI was due to the fact that Fritz was a dying man at the time and Bismarck may have had a streak of kindness and compassion for the soon-to-be widowed Vickie? Without the revised will, Vickie and daughters would have been near penniless in a not-so-friendly environment.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 02, 2006, 04:31:34 PM
Yes, I think "Bismarck may have had a streak of kindness and compassion". He wasn´t black and white either and as a gentleman must have thought that WI:s will was unfair and that Vicky´s daughters needed dowries. After all they were Prussian and German princesses. His settling of the estate was a great surprise to the ministers. Recognizing that Vicky had spent a great deal of her life so to say in the waiting room and knowing that Vicky´s desperate day by day  clinging to the throne soon was over Bismarck could afford to show magnanimity. It wasn´t his own money.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 02, 2006, 06:33:36 PM
During her ever so brief 99 day reign as, and since Bismarck helped her with WI's estate, did Vickie have any amount of actually "feeling" like Kaiserin and getting to experience any of the high level benefits of the position? Or, with her "desperate day to day clinging to the throne", was her 99 days at the top all a tragically moot point?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 03, 2006, 06:46:01 AM
Since the court was in mourning there were of course no festivities. Vicky only sat once on the throne in the reception room at the Charlottenburg Schloss during a "cour". Many of those present regarded the reception as something unnecessary and that Vicky only wanted the high officials to recognize her as empress by curtseying. Fritz was to ill and couldn´t speak so he didn´t attend. Many, including Edward (VII), tried to persuade Vicky to make Willy a prince-regent but she refused as long as possible. After many days she had to give in and a long list was published in Fritz´s name stating exactly in what matters of state Willy could use his signature. So great was the distrust.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 03, 2006, 10:00:34 AM
Quote
Since the court was in mourning there were of course no festivities. Vicky only sat once on the throne in the reception room at the Charlottenburg Schloss during a "cour". Many of those present regarded the reception as something unnecessary and that Vicky only wanted the high officials to recognize her as empress by curtseying. Fritz was to ill and couldn´t speak so he didn´t attend. Many, including Edward (VII), tried to persuade Vicky to make Willy a prince-regent but she refused as long as possible. After many days she had to give in and a long list was published in Fritz´s name stating exactly in what matters of state Willy could use his signature. So great was the distrust.


It is almost unimaginable the state of mind and horrible situation Vickie was in immediately following WI's death. She must have felt even worse if her brother was pushing to get Willy more involved while her husband lay dying a miserable death.

Was there ever any chance or discussion about Fritz changing dynastic rules to allow Vickie a position after his death? She must have felt her entire world crumbling around her, and with Willy's behavior, she had to have been near the edge, so to speak.

Was the international press favorable to her situation?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2006, 11:33:05 AM
Most certainly the British press was supportive of her. Queen Victoria asked her daughter to visit Britian as a morale booster trip. It did the trick. Vicky was cheered and appauled when she showed up with her mother. This support reaffirmed their love for her as their "Princess Royal".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: dp5486 on March 03, 2006, 12:48:59 PM
Why was the relationship between Kaiser Wilhelm II and his mother so bad? I was looking over several of his biographies and it just wasn't clear why he tried to have his mother's house searched for his letters to her before her body was even cold.

Why such hostility?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 03, 2006, 01:15:13 PM
Willy was worried that her papers and letters would reveal to the world just how awful he had been to his own mother!!

I believe Willys behaviour was down to his deformed arm, he had such a huge ego it must have bothered him immensly!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 03, 2006, 01:41:02 PM


Also, did each palace have its own designated throne? I had thought the actual regal throne would have been in the Stadt Schoss as opposed to Charlottenburg.

Lastly, did Vickie usurpt the role of emperor from Fritz since he was in such bad shape? He would surely have deligated to Vickie, but how much did she actually acomplish?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: dp5486 on March 03, 2006, 01:57:49 PM
Very interesting...

I know that he tried to paint a different picture of his mother, making her out to be the one who had been horrible to him. It was when he did this that Sir Frederick Ponsonby (who I believe was very close to the British Royal Family) decided to set the record straight.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on March 03, 2006, 04:04:21 PM
In contrast, although I can't remember the exact phrasing (it can be found at the end of Hannah Pakula's book), William wrote to a friend around the anniversary of his mother's birth (100th anniversary I think) that no one at home took notice of the day or remembered any of the wonderful things his mother did.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 03, 2006, 07:59:16 PM
Quote

Very intersting and many thanks Wettin. Do you suppose that Bismarck's tampering with the will of WI was due to the fact that Fritz was a dying man at the time and Bismarck may have had a streak of kindness and compassion for the soon-to-be widowed Vickie? Without the revised will, Vickie and daughters would have been near penniless in a not-so-friendly environment.



Or as Wettin pointed out, he hoped that she'd skedaddle back to England. It also could've brought about some very bad publicity.

I read once in a newspaper that Henry inherited the bulk of FIII's estate? If, as Wettin states, Fritz got 9 million yet Vicky still needed the Duchess of Galliera's money to buy Friedrichshof, it would seem the money Fritz had didn't go to Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2006, 09:21:35 PM
Yes...Vicky had the misfortune of being sandwitched between two empresses Augusta and Dona. Kaiser Bill purposely did not vote for any money for his mother, so she was left very badly off.  >:(

I found it strange that Kaiser Bill thought the Germans should remember his mother, when he and Bismark made sure that she was to be ignored.  ???
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 04, 2006, 10:25:06 AM
Quote


Or as Wettin pointed out, he hoped that she'd skedaddle back to England. It also could've brought about some very bad publicity.

I read once in a newspaper that Henry inherited the bulk of FIII's estate? If, as Wettin states, Fritz got 9 million yet Vicky still needed the Duchess of Galliera's money to buy Friedrichshof, it would seem the money Fritz had didn't go to Vicky.


I've been trying to find comparable value of 9 million in German marks in 1888 to today's U.S. dollar. No luck so far, but does anyone have an idea of the current value of Fritz's inheritance? How did it compare, for example, to the worth of Vicky's brother Edward at the time?

Also, was Vickie at the time earning any income as the current Princess Royal of GB?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2006, 10:35:59 AM
No...the title of Princess Royal was a curtesey title with no income attatched to it. Vicky had her dowert and that was spent renovating the Neues Palais, where she was turned out by Willy on his succession to the throne. The poor Empress frederick had only the farm of Bonstadt in her name, few pieces of jewels, books, antiques and books she had collected through the years. A royal bag lady without a home...almost !  :o
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: B5218 on March 04, 2006, 10:50:12 AM
Is there a thread devoted the Victoria's artistic ability?  From the portrait of Prince Henry as an adult and her some of her other children, she seemed quite talented.

If there is a thread or link to this subject, I would appreciate knowing.

Thank you
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2006, 11:02:25 AM
Yes...Vicky's talent and love for the arts is well known. She was also a collector of pictures, books and bronzes. I think Mossy inheited quite a bit from that collection as did Willy and Henry.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 04, 2006, 11:13:23 AM
Quote
Is there a thread devoted the Victoria's artistic ability?  From the portrait of Prince Henry as an adult and her some of her other children, she seemed quite talented.

If there is a thread or link to this subject, I would appreciate knowing.

Thank you



Any thoughts? thanks.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 05, 2006, 07:02:22 AM
Quote
Was there ever any chance or discussion about Fritz changing dynastic rules to allow Vickie a position after his death?

Yes Vicky wanted in the beginning That Fritz made her regent but nobody in Germany would have considered her reign legitimate. Besides Willy was the crown prince.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 05, 2006, 07:06:26 AM
Quote
I read once in a newspaper that Henry inherited the bulk of FIII's estate? If, as Wettin states, Fritz got 9 million yet Vicky still needed the Duchess of Galliera's money to buy Friedrichshof, it would seem the money Fritz had didn't go to Vicky

One of Fritz´s nine millions he gave to his wife the other eight to his four daughters.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 05, 2006, 07:23:07 AM
Quote
Also, did each palace have its own designated throne? I had thought the actual regal throne would have been in the Stadt Schoss as opposed to Charlottenburg

To my knowledge there was in every official royal recidence a reception/audience room with a thronelike chair on a podium. In Charlottenburg the podium was two steps high. When they came back from San Remo Vicky did not want to live in the Kronprinzenpalais because people could look right through the windows.It would have given the impression that the dying Fritz was a prisoner in his own home.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 05, 2006, 07:42:25 AM
Quote
It was when he did this that Sir Frederick Ponsonby (who I believe was very close to the British Royal Family) decided to set the record straight.

If you read Willy´s preface to the publication of his mothers letters he states that his mother had asked for extracts to be made from her letters. He questions if she in the end would have made the exact selection that Ponsonby made. So strictly historically seen Ponsonby did not "set the record straight" but rather established a view on the Vicky-Willy relationship that would last for many years. Many of you perhaps regard me as pro-Willy. I´m actually not. What I want to say is that many persons involved in the life of Willy were very complicated like most of us are. Vicky was  as meddling and intriguating as all the others around her and like them  not always so smart in her plans.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2006, 10:08:37 AM
Thanks I was a bit lost there...

No. I think what Willy did after his father's death was terrible, ransacking the palace in search of papers when his mother was still grieving for Fritz. After that he practically drove her out of Berlin, as she did not have a permanent residence there anymore. Vicky had many talents but was prevented from doing much good first by Bismark, then by Willy. I do not think Vicky was ambitious for power for herself at all. She was trained by her father and hope to make a democratic Germany. It pains her to see Germany feared and dispised by her neighbours. One author said it was a blessing that Vicky died before the end, it would have broken her heart to see her homeland at war with her adopted country. In a sense her mission failed and life totally wasted... :'(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 05, 2006, 10:54:22 AM
Wettin, once again, your knowledge base and insights are incredibly informative and appreciated. Thank you so much!

If Fritz had made Vicky regent and it lasted only 3 months or so, would she have been able to accomplish anything in spite of the government's view of her reign? I suspect there was little she could have done, excepting for one very valuable possibility...a treaty with GB. Any thoughts?

Also, what was the departure from San Remo like and the ensuing trip back to Germany? Did the paparazzi hound them the entire trip? Was the international press empathetic to Vicky and Fritz? Did William travel with them?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 05, 2006, 11:27:34 AM
I don't think Vicky would've been able to do much, including any potentially politically explosive treaty with GB. There was still Bismarck to contend with.

The trip back from San Remo was slow going. They did have several stops so as not to tax Fritz. Along the way, many of their royal friends, such as Umberto & Margherita of Italy, visited the train when it stopped in their areas.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 05, 2006, 01:15:32 PM
IMO the pity lies in that Fritz and Vicky could not even have realized half of their ideas had they  ruled for 30 years. Not only because of Bismarck but Germany had and still in a way has another tradition of political ideas. When Vicky´s mother ascended to the throne she could rely on a more than 100 year old tradition of parliamentarism. Vicky was a great idealist thinking there was an Autobahn for liberal ideas in Germany. I think this estranged her from the German "ruling class" and the fact that she became isolated proved that she wouldn´t have been  I great parliamentarist. I use the word pity because Germany had to go through/caused two worldwars. I think had Vicky lived today she would have admired the way Germany since 1945 has had to digest its history. I´m sure the interest in Vicky and her life reflects this digestion.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 05, 2006, 01:59:55 PM
That is, indeed, a pity. What strikes me with that point of view, Wettin, is the miracle that Fritz somehow 'fell through the cracks' and emerged from the Prussian/German system and mentality as a very, very different man. Bismarck must have had his hand on young Fritz in order to manipulate his perspectives (as he did with Willy), so was Vicky the key influence on Fritz and why he was so many years ahead of his nation in terms of democracy? That could add some explanation to why Bismarck disliked Vicky so.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 05, 2006, 02:56:21 PM
I´m sure it was Vicky´s influence on Fritz but we must remember that there were other liberal minded persons in Germany, despite(?) Bismarck. King Johann of Saxony and his eldest son (King) Albert for example. It was no secret that both were in favour of a federalistic Germany but didn´t like the Prussian overweight. Still Bismarck held their opinions very high and often solicited them. Vicky was perhaps not so skilled in diplomacy. King Johann was a classical philologist, heavy on Greek, and translated Dante´s Divine Comedy into versified German, so I suppose he knew how to choose his words. Besides, Albert was a good military strategist.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 05, 2006, 06:45:05 PM
Fritz's mother, Augusta, was also of a liberal bent and he received a fairly non-traditional (for Prussian princes) education. She and Wilhelm I were close to Victoria & Albert and Albert had great hopes for not just Fritz but, I think, also Wilhelm I's reign which turned out to be very different. So by the time that Fritz & Vicky's eventual son would ascend the throne, there would've ideally been 2 long-reigning liberal monarchs. Fate decreed otherwise.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: carl fraley on March 05, 2006, 06:58:09 PM
The 9 million someone mentioned earlier was not Fritz's.  Bismark promised vicky that he would earmark the 9million (expedite it's relase) from Wilhelms I's estate.  He did this so that she would totally forget the Sandro moretta marriage idea.  Fritz did personally give her 1 million of it and divided up the rest as dowries for the 3 remaining girls.

The problem was Fritz was not Sovereign long enough to recieve any capiltal from his inheritance.  This really affected Vicky later as Willy became kaiser.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Wettin on March 06, 2006, 02:45:04 AM
Wilhelm I´s estate was estimated to around 22 million mark. Kaiser Friedrich III was  enough alive to write in his diary April 12 1888 that he had himself written a document (eine Urkunde) giving his wife 1 million and each of his four daughters 2 million. (Geheim Staatsarchiv Preussiger Kulturbesitz).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 06, 2006, 02:47:51 AM
Very interesting thank you Wettin! :) Did Vicky receive anything on her mothers death??
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 06, 2006, 06:47:53 AM
I don't think so. Even if she had she wouldn't have enjoyed it for long. She died the same year as her mother.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 06, 2006, 10:16:24 AM
Thank you Eric, seeing as QV's will had been made years before, just wondered if she made any bequests for Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 06, 2006, 11:25:08 AM
I think by the time of her death, Vicky had somehow managed to be in better terms with Willy. I think he may have done something for her in terms of money.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: carl fraley on March 06, 2006, 05:07:13 PM
Before Fritz got sick Vicky specifically asked Queen Victoria not to worry about her in her will that she would be more than taken care of by Fritz. ( Vicky didn't know fritz would get sick, nor did she know that Wilhelm would live so long either).  Vicky did as QV so set a little something aside for Moretta in case she was disinherited by Wilhelm and Agusta, which they both threatened.  Vicky constantly fell back on her Dowry to cover expenses.  Willy didn't do anything for his mother except after she had built her home in Kronberg he bought a piece of land adjoining it that Vicky hadn't been able to get.    according to Hanna Pakula they had pretty much made up towards vicky's death but Willy didn't usually giver her any money.  In Fritz's will  there was a clause left out where vicky was concerned, a mere oversight, Fritz had forgotten to make an allowance for Vicky's Court and the upkeep and provision for her a palace to live in to also be paid and kept by the state.  Augusta was covered but vicky was not ( mere oversight) . Willy never fixed it either.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 06, 2006, 05:27:05 PM
Quote
I think by the time of her death, Vicky had somehow managed to be in better terms with Willy. I think he may have done something for her in terms of money.  ;)


Based on what?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 07, 2006, 05:21:01 AM
Thank you carlfraley, very interesting.

Quote
I think by the time of her death, Vicky had somehow managed to be in better terms with Willy. I think he may have done something for her in terms of money.  ;)


Any more information on this please Eric? :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 07, 2006, 10:39:12 AM
I think by the time Vicky became a widow, much of her dowery had been spent already. She had her farm in Bonstadt and that was pretty much it. I think Queen Victoria pitched in something for her but she had to wait until the Duchess of Galleria's inheritance to built her house in Kronberg. She had use the house in nearby Homberg, but it was scarely a house of her own. I have stayed twice in Hotel Kronberg (Friederichof ) and loved it there (the food, the view the quietness and the tea was superb... ;D
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: jfkhaos on March 07, 2006, 12:18:43 PM
Once Willam came to the throne, he effectively told Vicky that Bornstedt was state property and basically repossessed it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 07, 2006, 12:26:11 PM
Such a kind gesture on the part of the Duchess of Galleria. Though i'm sure Vicky was worthy of such a gesture! :):)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PAVLOV on May 03, 2009, 10:27:23 AM
Wilhelm was not very nice in his treatment of his mother, and she was marginalised by many other people in Germany at the time. Why ?
I am also horrified by the way in which she died, screaming in pain for days before the end. Why was the morphine witheld ? She was in agony, and I cannot imagine why they tortured her right to the end.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on May 04, 2009, 11:40:53 AM
Vicky was not a popular Crown Princess/Empress and ordinary people tended to believe the misinformation they had been fed for years about her allegedly anti-German attitudes.  She had been marginalised by her father-in-law and later by her son and it was not surprising that people gravitated to where the power was - which meant turning their backs on Vicky.

Morphine was not withheld but her German doctors only gave her small doses which didn't sufficiently allieviate her pain.  I imagine the doctors were concerned to ensure that she neither became addicted to the morphine nor died of it although frankly the first would hardly have mattered and the second would have been a mercy.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Vecchiolarry on May 04, 2009, 01:18:59 PM
Hi,

Yes, CountessKate, I agree - at the last stages of life, what does it matter if you become an addict;  and I would surmise that death would come as a friend to the Empress...

Larry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 04, 2009, 02:02:47 PM
Also people grow rapidly tolerant of morphine, which is why they need higher & higher doses and therefore becomes a significant obstacle to effective pain relief. Obviously the higher doses can cause a variety of complications, including oversedation & respiratory problems, so it's a difficult business.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but I think I recall reading that Queen Victoria was so concerned she considered sending her physician Francis Laking to review Vicky, but the Kaiser refused, believing it would make a bad impression.....
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Teddy on May 05, 2009, 01:47:14 AM
I think you are correctly. It had to be a German doctor, not a English one.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 05, 2009, 01:51:38 PM
I don't know how much faith QV put in Vickys Dr's which is probably why she wished to send her own.

Poor Vicky, such a nice lady & to suffer so. Heartbreaking. :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on May 05, 2009, 03:26:05 PM
In fact Sir Francis Laking was consulted by Vicky frequently by correspondence, via Queen Victoria, and actually visited her in February 1900 without incident (Queen Victoria paid the bill for his consultation).  Dr Allen Sturges (presumably an Englishman) was consulted when she was at Nice in 1899.   In Pakula's biography, she quotes Ponsonby's allegation that when the Prince of Wales paid his last visit to Vicky, Sir Francis' presence in his suite was resented by the Kaiser and his suite (too many suites for a dying woman if you ask me) and Vicky's German doctors.  I'm not sure whether to believe Ponsonby's story - he made rather a tale of smuggling out Vicky's letters when it was much more low key than he portrayed, but I guess it's possible.  However, it seems Vicky was able to consult British doctors pretty freely until she was in her most final and incapacitating illness.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PAVLOV on May 06, 2009, 10:40:18 AM
Yes, I think she was probably a very nice person, but that her life in Germany, and especially her death, was awful. I sometimes wonder if she would have gone back to England if she had no children ? Almost the same circumstances as Mary Queen of Scots leaving France after the death of her husband, and going back to Scotland. But that may have been a sign of "giving up".
If my son was an arrogant ( rude word) like Wilhelm, and I was treated so badly i would have packed my bags, and headed for Berlin train station.     
What always amazes me is that she died of exactly the same disease as her husband. Throat cancer.
Really awful. Its just as well that QV passed away at almost the same time. I think the loss would have been too much for her to bear.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 06, 2009, 10:47:51 AM
Vicky did not die of throat cancer. She had breast cancer that had metasticized throughout her body.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PAVLOV on May 06, 2009, 02:25:16 PM
Yes of course you are right, my mistake. It was her brother Alfred, Duke of Coburg who died of throat ( larynx) cancer at the end of July 1900. I think it was 1900. Not sure. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 06, 2009, 05:50:41 PM
Yes, the duke passed in late July 1900, almost exactly six months before his mother died and almost exactly a year before his sister Vickie. Bing, bing, bing.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 23, 2010, 03:22:55 PM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/63526337_vikki.jpg)


when i look at her i start wondering why she callled hersef "the ugly sister"? vicky sent qv a picture of herself and alice and defined them as"the ugly and the beautiful one".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2010, 04:53:53 PM
You have to remember Winterhalter can make the ugliest looked their very best (not that Vicky was ugly). Alice was ladylike & elegant, while Vicky was dumpy like the queen and talks too fast.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 23, 2010, 11:17:23 PM
I"m with you Violetta--I think Vicky the most attractive of the sisters after Louise. I don't find Alice pretty at all--not even in Winterhalter pictures! I think it's her long nose and overly mournful expression--even as a child. Vicky had a most charming smile and beautiful coloring. She did go through a matronly period but 8 kids will do that! (Though Alice did stay much slimmer) I think she was a most attractive young woman and when she aged, her white hair went so well with her bright blue eyes. Much like Elizabeth II, I think that's where much of her attractiveness comes from--her coloring. Vicky was also more elegant as an older woman when she had slimmed down some and given up the frilly clothes that can make even a slender woman look big. Those fashions were no friend to shorter, plumper women.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 24, 2010, 04:30:35 AM
I think,Ella, that her face and her face expression testify to her intelligence and inner depth. She had wisdom in her eyes, I think.



Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 24, 2010, 04:45:49 AM

vicky`s engagement

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickysengagement.jpg)

vicky`s wedding

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickywed.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 24, 2010, 06:08:11 AM
i thought the pictures would be bigger but it was in vain :(

vicky at 14, 1855

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vicky1855at14.jpg)


vicky and fritz honeymooning in balmoral

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickyfritzhoneymoonbalmoral.jpg)


vicky with willy and charlotte

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickywillycharlotte.jpg)



Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 24, 2010, 06:11:44 AM
I agree with all of you. Victoria was a beautiful curvy woman, maybe in some point of her life she didnt have a good sense of fashion but she had a cute face

Hi hi res version of a beautiful portrait of her

(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1962/kaiserinvictoriaalt.jpg) (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/kaiserinvictoriaalt.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 24, 2010, 07:04:46 AM
First of all I have to point I that i`m not going to justify willy or charlotte. i`m apalled by their attitude towards vicky and fritz during his lifetime and after fritz`s death. i think he was at times inhuman. but i`m aslo aware of the fact that vicky&fritz had almost no say as far as upbringing of the three elder children was concerned.
but we can`t forget that parents` , especially mother, are to a great extent responsible for the relationships between children and parents when the former grow up. the wounds that children suffer during their childhood and adollescence affect mutual relationships in the future. I know this from my own experience and from my friend`s experience. When we grow up we often have to fight the consequences of parents` mistakes. and parents, in turn, have also been affected by their parents. it`s a kind of a vicious circle.

even if vicky DID make mistakes she was unaware of them because her own mother was not the embodied perfection.

I think Vicky was a very difficult mother to deal with. When she was a girl, her mother queen victoria expected her to be perfect, to behave like a grown up person in a miniature. victoia made no allowances for children`s weaknesses. neither did vicky. when it turned out that willy`s arm was crippled she went to any lengths to remedy the situation. but i have an impression that in her striving for willy`s health and perfection she somehow disregarded the numan aspect of their relationship. the boy was tormented by a weird steel device. doctors prescribed cold compresees, sprays of seawater, placing the child`s arm twice a week into the body of a freshly killed hare...the list of "treatments" can be continued.
 i`ve got an impression that striving for willy`s health  she subconsciously sent a message to her elder son: you`re not perfect enough for me! strive,strive to come up to my expectations! I`ll give you muy unconditional (?) love as soon as you have isen up to my expectations.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: THERRY on October 24, 2010, 08:33:45 AM
I love the young woman
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1500/scansione0001tp.jpg) (http://img249.imageshack.us/i/scansione0001tp.jpg/)
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5269/scansione0008x.jpg) (http://img524.imageshack.us/i/scansione0008x.jpg/)
But above all I admire and I respect her ideas in mature age
(click to zoom)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 24, 2010, 08:36:10 AM
The main sin of Vicky was the fact that she,according to Pakula, " put unrealistic demands on her children". "No achievement was ever enough  - either in scholastics or character- to satisfy her. After leaving her sons in Cannes with thei tutor during the winter of 1870, v. wrote to thank Willy for a letter, which was apparently the first he had ever written without Hintzpeter`s (tutor`s) guidance. `It is so pleasant to be independent and feel one can do things without help and then never to be satisfied what one does but always to try and do better still".
"She seemed incapable", continues Pakula, " of giving a boy a compliment without a criticism or a prod".
"It is a great pleasure to me to get letters from you...I cannot compliment you dearest boy on your writing, the hand and the spelling are both bad, there was hardly a word without a mistake or a letter left out". To remedy this, the Crown Princess frequently returned Willy`s letters with her correction.

I think that in such a situation a feeling of rejection in inevitably developed in one`s child.Or similar feelings.

But the fact that I critisize Vicky`s methods of bringing up her children does not mean tat I don`t like oe respect her. I DO. And i hope that one day the Crown Princess will be duly appreciated. But no one is either "black" or "white". She was a complex personality,too, with her ups and downs.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2010, 01:01:40 PM
I think Vicky was a difficult mother but never really mean. Willy's actions towards her (especially after his father's death) was not justified. Although had Vicky been more loving like Alice (whom Willy admired when he visited Darmstadt), things might not turn so bad.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2010, 01:06:48 PM
Agree. No one is completely perfect or flawed.  Everyone has a complex set of character traits that create a unique individual with a unique personality; Vicky was no exception. The trick is to have more plusses than minues, and emerge with an overall pleasant and productive being.

Sometimes, a person's traits are polarized--very good and very distasteful. In such cases, their legacy is usually one or the other. In Vicky's case, I think the way she raised her oldest children was horrible; in fact, VERY Prussian. Her unrelenting badgering of Willy was her own choice...not the court's pressure. But, her poor motherly is trumped by much greater good will and accomplishments that have provided her an overall high mark in history's report card.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2010, 01:10:12 PM
Vicky was a victim too. So much was riding on Wilhelm being the hope of the future of Germany, she felt this was a task that her beloved papa had entrusted to her. She was frustrated by Wilhelm I & Bismark at every turn. She had no such expectations on her younger daughters, that is why she could relax with them.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2010, 02:56:52 PM
I think it's a real stretch to claim Vicky's being a "victim" in her position of being mother of the future Kaiser caused her to be overtly insensitive, demanding, and cruel to Willy. Especially with Fritz in the picture, this does not track. As mentioned earlier, very highly regarded people also had flaws, and to gloss over Vicky's mothering toward Willy (and Henry and Charlotte) by claiming she was the victim is ever so exemplory of the 21st century mentality of not taking responsibilty for one's actions. Of course, the Court had much influence on the raising of the royal houselhold's children, but there is no evidence that Vicky's hand was forced against her will to act toward Willy as she did.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 25, 2010, 08:44:03 AM
I think it's a real stretch to claim Vicky's being a "victim" in her position of being mother of the future Kaiser caused her to be overtly insensitive, demanding, and cruel to Willy. Especially with Fritz in the picture, this does not track. As mentioned earlier, very highly regarded people also had flaws, and to gloss over Vicky's mothering toward Willy (and Henry and Charlotte) by claiming she was the victim is ever so exemplory of the 21st century mentality of not taking responsibilty for one's actions. Of course, the Court had much influence on the raising of the royal houselhold's children, but there is no evidence that Vicky's hand was forced against her will to act toward Willy as she did.




Hard as Vicky`s life was no one forced her to be unfair or intimidating towards her own children. Though it`s not 100 % her fault. She had a sort of imprint in her mind originated from her own childhood that made her behave so. But i have to say that an intelligent and feeling huan being has to conrol one`s behavior.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 25, 2010, 08:48:58 AM
vicky as a widow (believe it`s from the same session)

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickywidow.jpg)

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vic31.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 25, 2010, 08:50:35 AM
This is also from the same photoshoot. QV is holding a picture of Friedrich

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9220/sf6279.jpg) (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/sf6279.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on October 25, 2010, 08:54:36 AM
 around her wedding period

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/weddingperiod.jpg)

vicky, alice, victoria & berty

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickyalicevictoriaberty.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 25, 2010, 10:47:21 AM
This is also from the same photoshoot. QV is holding a picture of Friedrich

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9220/sf6279.jpg) (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/sf6279.jpg/)

 

This photo sits on a lamp table in the Goodwood House. It was told to me that the photo was an original print, given to Goodwood shortly after the session.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2010, 11:00:06 AM
Vicky was raised by Prince Albert to expect the best. She was just repeating what her "darling papa" had done. The fact that Prince Albert failed at the education of Bertie (Vicky's eldest brother) was a refection of how this kind of education and expectation is flawed. There is no question that Vicky did not love Willy, but she also expected much from him. That was where the problem arises.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 25, 2010, 11:31:09 AM
I think both the Court (in the person of Wilhelm I and Augusta particularly), Vicky's age & relative powerlessness (as well as her desire to emulate Albert--after all, it worked for her, didn't it?) and Wilhelm's position as heir all contributed to their failed relationship--as well as that with Charlotte and Heinrich. Vicky wrote over and over how much she and Fritz were over-ridden by his parents. It's surprising, really, given the liberal education Fritz himself had had that such wasn't given to Wilhelm. Plus, she was young herself and in a very insecure position. She was more mature by the time Sigisumund came along--though who knows how that relationship would have been given that he died so young--and more willing to assert herself. All their decisions were determined by her in-laws down to her traveling with the children to England--or even on her own. Once she had provided the heir and a spare, as well as a granddaughter for Augusta to spoil, she seems to have been left more to her own.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2010, 11:38:07 AM
You are so right grandduchessa ! Vicky was always been a foreigner & a liberal (due to the teachings of Prince Albert) in the Prussian court. She was very young when Wilhelm was born and the poor kid was lapped up with so much expectations from his parents and grandparents that it was no surprise that Wilhelm's nature went lopsided. Had Prince Albert lived longer, he would realise why his mother expected so much from him (via grandpa Coburg). But eventually he was weaned to the Junker side headed by Bismark and supported by his grandfather Wilhelm I. Vicky was thus fighting a lost course.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 26, 2010, 01:46:48 PM
Painting of her by Sir Charles Ross (her suit looks like some traditional suit of India)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/vicktoria.jpg)
Lovely photo of the young Princess
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/crownpss.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 26, 2010, 02:04:34 PM
Found this labeled as her, thanks for saying who's really her
Some paitings...

A little baby
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/1842.jpg)
A bit older with daddy
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/vickydaddy.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 26, 2010, 02:07:45 PM
Yes, Eric said that...

A nice Cabinet card of Viktoria

(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6961/5esrtg.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: seriya on October 27, 2010, 10:26:03 AM
Vicky
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f225/seriya1011/prm/as.jpg)

lovely princess
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f225/seriya1011/prm/pssroyal.jpg)

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f225/seriya1011/prm/6407776.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 27, 2010, 12:50:21 PM
Great photos!! :-0
Drawing...
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/victoria.jpg)
A really lovely girl...
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/pssroyal.jpg)
A bit older...
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/pssFriedric.jpg)

The last two images are courtesy of royalcollection.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2010, 03:25:33 PM
Vicky was more of a cute than pretty girl. I read she became more attractive when her face became more animated when she was happy or interested...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 28, 2010, 04:06:06 PM
I think there was a service in the church. It was painted and now in New Palace in Potsdam, I saw it when I visited Berlin the year after the Berlin Wall fell. It clearly shows Wilhelm crowned and Vicky with a coronet. I may be wrong but that is what I saw...

I think the mix up is that Wilhelm I was indeed coronated as King of Prussia in 1861 and Vicky was of course in attendance as pictured above with regal gown and robes with large tiara.

Wilhelm's declaration as Kaiser/Emperor, however, in 1871, ten years later, was in Versailles and not attended by the Court at large and Vicky was not there; nor was Augusta. This event, as RH pointed out above, was not a coronation and the Hohenzollerns did not have imperial regalia. In that regard, they were ahead of their time.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 28, 2010, 04:31:14 PM
I see...Thanks for clearing that up. I wonder if anyone could post that painting up. I remember it was specatcular and large.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 28, 2010, 04:51:39 PM
I think the mix up is that Wilhelm I was indeed coronated as King of Prussia in 1861 and Vicky was of course in attendance as pictured above with regal gown and robes with large tiara.

Indeed, I remember reading her description of it in a letter (to QV?), where she gushed about how patriotic and Prussian it made her feel.

Coming to think ot it, I think Wilhelm I's coronation as King of Prussia at Königsberg (imitating Friedrich I's coronation as King in Prussia) was the only coronation in German lands in the 19th century, the first and last since Emperor Franz II's coronation in Frankfurt in 1792. Neither the Kings of Bavaria, Hanover, Saxony, Württemberg nor the Grand Duke of Baden were ever crowned, although all, except the Kings of Saxony (who had some Polish crowns in their treasury) had regalia made.

One can say that the German Emperors showed modern restraint when they didn't have a coronation, but remember that it would have been a diplomatic nightmare, with the German Emperor not being a monarch by the grace of God, but only the constitutional president (or chairman!) of a federation of sovereigns. The German Empire had not one, but many state churches and the imperial capital, Berlin, did not have a cathedral that was a worthy successor of the great cathedrals in former coronation venues like Frankfurt, Rome, Aachen etc. In addition the great old imperial cathedrals in most cases belonged to the Catholic Church, which Bismarck was fighting a cultural war against.

Apart from the cathedral business (the old Imperial Cathedral of St. Bartholomew burnt down on the eve of Wilhelm I's first visit to Frankfurt in 1867 and was not rebuilt untill 1900 anyway), Frankfurt could have been a venue. It was a Protestant former free imperial city and Prussian since 1866, but perhaps the associations not only with the last centuries' Holy Roman coronations, but also the failure of the German Federation and the Revolution of 1848 (especially if the Church of St. Paul was used!) would have been too close for comfort.

Considering that Nürnberg for centuries had been the custodian of the Imperial regalia before they were brought to Vienna, it was a Protestant former free imperial city in Bavaria, was venerated as a treasure chest of well-preserved German medievalism and had historic links with the Hohenzollerns (who had been Burggraves of the imposing Imperial Castle there), it's fascinating to speculate how a post-1871 coronation at Nürnberg, which would have to put more stress on national unity than divine grace, easily could have foreshadowed the infamous Reichsparteitage, Imperial Party Days aka Nuremberg Rallies....  
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 28, 2010, 05:41:47 PM
great summary, Фёдор Петрович. The great importance of the church-based monarchy and divine right even remained, for Germany, in the eyes of the nobles through WWII. Recall how Colonel von Stauffenberg shouted "long live Holy Germany" as he was being executed for attempting to kill Hitler.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 28, 2010, 08:28:01 PM
There is a watercolour sketch I've seen of Wilhelm place a coronet on Vicky's head--probably the preliminary to the painting. I don't have the info in front of me though.  It seems that it was in the 1860s though so would've been upon his proclaimation as King of Prussia. Vicky has also been photographed in her robes and coronet and she drew a sketch of herself for her mother that's in the Royal Collection.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 28, 2010, 08:59:15 PM
There is a watercolour sketch I've seen of Wilhelm place a coronet on Vicky's head--probably the preliminary to the painting. I don't have the info in front of me though.  It seems that it was in the 1860s though so would've been upon his proclaimation as King of Prussia.
Is this what you mean? (http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Kroenung_KW_1_.jpg). I think that's Wilhelm crowning Augusta queen.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 28, 2010, 10:03:58 PM
great summary, Фёдор Петрович. The great importance of the church-based monarchy and divine right even remained, for Germany, in the eyes of the nobles through WWII. Recall how Colonel von Stauffenberg shouted "long live Holy Germany" as he was being executed for attempting to kill Hitler.

The Schenks of Stauffenberg were Hereditary Cup-Bearers or Butlers to the Counts of Hohenzollern, perhaps Count Claus could have played a role during an Imperial Hohenzollern coronation banquet!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 29, 2010, 10:07:42 AM
That would be possible. Claus was doing a cause close to the Hohenzollerns, by that time the now dead Kaiser was dead against the Nazis.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 29, 2010, 01:31:16 PM
Handtinted photo
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/handtinted61.jpg)
Lovely family portrait
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/germfam.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 29, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
I don't know the last one was a Winterhalter or Von Angeli ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 29, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
It was made by Winterhalter XD
Victoria's wedding
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/wed.jpg)
With a lovely bustle dress
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/victoriagerm.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2010, 09:14:05 PM
There is a watercolour sketch I've seen of Wilhelm place a coronet on Vicky's head--probably the preliminary to the painting. I don't have the info in front of me though.  It seems that it was in the 1860s though so would've been upon his proclaimation as King of Prussia.
Is this what you mean? (http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Kroenung_KW_1_.jpg). I think that's Wilhelm crowning Augusta queen.

No, it's not the one to which I referred.

Wilhelm I was crowned King of Prussia 18 Oct 1861.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2010, 09:20:24 PM
Lovely family portrait
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/germfam.jpg)

From an old quote

Quote
QV had all 3 hanging in connecting rooms (but the roosm where open so you could see them all). All 3 paintings--including a postcard that shows the rooms--are on various threads.

Here's the picture where you can see the 3 pictures. I think there's also the Winterhalter of Helena, Alfred and Louise.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Osbourne_House.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 30, 2010, 09:27:32 PM
There is a watercolour sketch I've seen of Wilhelm place a coronet on Vicky's head--probably the preliminary to the painting. I don't have the info in front of me though.  It seems that it was in the 1860s though so would've been upon his proclaimation as King of Prussia.
Is this what you mean? (http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Kroenung_KW_1_.jpg). I think that's Wilhelm crowning Augusta queen.
No, it's not the one to which I referred.
Ah, it must be this one (http://royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/object.asp?maker=FRITH&object=404057&row=5688), painted for Queen Victoria and still in the Royal Collection. If you look closely, it's Vicky with a tiara or diadem which just as well could be described as a coronet (the one which was a wedding gift from her parents-in-law, I guess, with its thin spikes) courtsying and rendering hommage to her father-in-law by kissing his hand. Queen Augusta stands in the background wearing the Queen's Crown, next to Fritz in the red robes of a Knight of the Order of the Black Eagle.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on November 01, 2010, 02:13:39 PM
vicky at 16

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/_Victoria_Princess_Royal_later_Empress_Friedrichat16.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on November 03, 2010, 04:14:40 PM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vicky7.jpg)


a famous picture of victoria in the company of her children. right to left:mossy of hesse-kassel, prince henry, charlotte, empress frederick, wilhelm II, moretta and sophie of greece 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2010, 04:19:38 PM
Charlotte looked the prettiest...but also she seemed to put on make up too.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 04, 2010, 05:29:13 AM
in better quality and a bit fuller

(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1275/fullscreencapture913200.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/fullscreencapture913200.jpg/)

Full size

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1275/fullscreencapture913200.jpg

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: redduchess on November 04, 2010, 08:37:31 PM
I believe body language in pics says more than words... everytime I see this pic - fully knowing the history of this mother and son - I still shudder about the space between Vicky and Willy....
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: wildone on November 04, 2010, 10:44:15 PM
Didn't she also have cancer by this time?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2010, 11:11:14 AM
Most likely. Vicky herself did not discover it until her fall from a horse...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Michael II on November 05, 2010, 12:40:36 PM
I read somewhere that on one of her last trips to Great Britian the cancer was discovered.  Breast cancer and that it had spread.  It was decided at that time not to say anything.  Then she told her daughter Charlotte and the news spread like wildfire.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2010, 01:12:59 PM
The fact that she told Charlotte meant she was ill, she knew that her eldest daughter spreads gossip.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 06, 2010, 12:44:00 PM
That photo was taken about a year before Vicky passed. It is a very handsome looking royal family, and Vicky does look a bit worn. However, the plain-faced poses most royals (exception to Viktoria Luise and Cecilie) exibited in photos tends to mislead their true demeanors at the times of the sittings.

Vicky, in addition to any physical ailments she had or know about at the time of this photo, was always under mental stress. Note how she has her arms stretched out behind Wilhelm and Charlotte, typical of the warm, engaging act that one might expect. Yet W has his hands clasped as does Charlotte, indicating a level of detachment from a gesture of embrace.

Too bad Vicky and Wilhelm had a love/hate disfunctional relationship. They could have been a powerful duo had they found greater common ground and mutual respect. All was lost, however. Wilhelm's hysterical outflowing of public emotion at Vicky's funeral march indicates he actually did feel the lost years were a tragedy.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 06, 2010, 05:39:17 PM
Quote
Wilhelm's hysterical outflowing of public emotion at Vicky's funeral march indicates he actually did feel the lost years were a tragedy.

Yet according to Von Bulow, Wilhelm told him shortly after his mother's death that Vicky had expressed a wish to be buried naked, with her body wrapped in a union jack, and her coffin was to be sent to England for burial there.  All of which was not only completely untrue, but was known by Wilhelm to be untrue.  So while he may have had some sincere emotion at her death it didn't stop him at the same time from making up quite extraordinary stories about her which put her in a very bad light in Germany.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 06, 2010, 07:44:16 PM
That story, however, about the flag and clothesless body has no written substantiation or validity other than hearsay.

Whereas Wilhelm's wailing in the funeral procession was eye-witnessed by everyone.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 07, 2010, 12:28:18 PM
Another point about this photo is the occasion. Is it known? the location is Friederickhoff, and all the siblings would not have been there without spouses or children. Very unlikely. So Vicky probably said she wanted a photo of herself and her children; no one else. I can imaging Charlotte and Wilhelm rolling their eyes and begrudingly accomodating their mother, hence the bit of stiffness in the image.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 07, 2010, 01:15:15 PM
I think it was for Vicky's birthday. Perhaps being ill, it was felt the entire family should be gathered together in case it was the last?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2010, 03:13:41 PM
I think Vicky herself must have known. In todays term, Vicky wanted no BS but only the honest naked truth. The fact that she outsmarted Willy with her papers meant that she was fully realise what her children were & their failings.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Keith on November 07, 2010, 07:03:38 PM
I'll have to check my books, but I seem to remember the photo was taken on the occasion of Queen Victoria's birthday in 1900. There is also another photo taken at the same time, which I'm hoping I remember correctly, included Grand Duke Ernst and Prince Albert of Schleswig-Holstein. I'll have to look for that also.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Keith on November 07, 2010, 07:46:36 PM
In Hannah Pakula's bio of Vicky she mentions that Vicky gathered her children together for a luncheon on the occasion of Queen Victoria's birthday in May 1900 and they were photographed together and the photo sent to QV. The photo in post 432 is included in the book with the date of 1900.

Photo including son and daughter-in-laws and grandchildren (I'm guessing Sophies?). I think the man on the right of Ernie is Albert S-H.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/fajack/Royal%20photos/Vickysfamily1900.jpg) 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 07, 2010, 09:59:26 PM
Yes, you are correct on all counts, Keith. I had birthday stuck in my head, just got the wrong Victoria! And that is Albert of Schleswig-Holstein. There were numerous other photos from the event--of Victoria alone, of the Greek grandchildren, the Hesse grandchildren (I don't know why they weren't in the 2nd photo with their cousins), Vicky & Wilhelm togther and of various groupings of siblings. It seems like Vicky's last big 'photo shoot' before her death. I don't think there are too many photos of her after this event.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2010, 10:19:43 AM
Indeed. It was her wish not to be photographed after her death. Her last big audience was the visit of her brother King Edward VII after the death of their mother, Vicky used this opportunity to get Ponsonby to smuggle her papers out of Germany. There was no photo op from this visit.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 11, 2010, 03:32:25 PM
Portrait
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/victoriaalemania.jpg)
With sister Beatrice
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/victoriaRP.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bonbon823 on November 11, 2010, 05:31:08 PM
I just love the one of the Empress with her youngest sister Beatrice.  I don't know why it touches me, but it does...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 12, 2010, 03:10:55 PM
Found this as the wooing of the Princess Royal 1850's
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/wooing.jpg)
Standing near to a mirror
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/Vickymirror.jpg)

And thank you for the info about the identity of the woman below!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 14, 2010, 12:18:09 PM
Viktoria as a widow


(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8999/tumblrl5u7yohwlu1qcfftg.jpg) (http://img213.imageshack.us/i/tumblrl5u7yohwlu1qcfftg.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on November 15, 2010, 01:48:07 PM

vicky`s baptism


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/vickybaptism.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 17, 2010, 09:20:55 AM
A nice miniature of Victoria

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2193/4htnjam096619941.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/4htnjam096619941.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2010, 01:30:34 PM
Yes with the Von Angeli portrait inside ! Was it auctioned ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2010, 12:50:17 PM
As a lovely baby with her dog Eos (courtesy: royal collection)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/VicEos.jpg)
Older
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/pssroyal.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: historyfan on November 24, 2010, 09:59:30 PM
That photo, the one shown in the miniature above, is used on a cover of An Uncommon Woman by Hannah Pakula.  Good book.  Lovely portrait.  I don't find her near as unattractive as she seemed to find herself.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 24, 2010, 10:18:51 PM
Happy belated Birthday, Vicky!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 25, 2010, 04:42:29 AM
Happy Birthday Viktoria!

(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/532/6333211.jpg) (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/6333211.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: THERRY on November 25, 2010, 09:27:55 AM
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9682/scansione0003e.jpg) (http://img148.imageshack.us/i/scansione0003e.jpg/)
In 1861 by Mayall NPG
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 25, 2010, 01:50:00 PM
Great photos!!
I wonder if this is the real full verssion of this portrait... I've only seen details of it in this thread
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/Princess_Victoria.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 26, 2010, 07:31:31 AM
I've never seen the original portrait but believe it is a half-length.  Could the engraver have taken liberties with the reproduction and added the background pillar and curtains (which never appeared in the original either)?  These additions, including the skirt to the feet, seem pretty clunky and not carried out with Winterhalter's characteristic grace.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 26, 2010, 08:56:53 AM
In fact, the original Winterhalter is on the Royal Collection website: http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/egallery/object.asp?maker=12557&object=404580&row=50 where it is clearly a half-length in an oval frame.  Looking at the background again of the print, it seems more like a photographic backdrop than Winterhalter's grander full-length portraits.  So I really feel the full length engraving was based on the half-length and imaginatively embellished rather than being an accurate reproduction of a full-length portrait.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2010, 08:32:46 AM
Winterhalter really flatters the sitter.Vicky was no exception.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: PAVLOV on November 27, 2010, 10:25:58 AM
Eos was actually Prince Albert's dog, not Princess Victoria's.  Winterhalter painted portraits of him as well, see Royal Collection.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on December 11, 2010, 11:15:26 AM
Eos was actually Prince Albert's dog, not Princess Victoria's.  Winterhalter painted portraits of him as well, see Royal Collection.

Prince Albert brought Eos with him to England from Coburg. David Duff writes about a joke that Prince Albert made. As he was going in the carriage from Coburg people were lined along roads to see the prince who was to marry the English queen. Albert,however, decidedto sit on the floor so as to be unseen. The dog was sitting on the seat and people saw the dog , not the prince. I didn`t like this joke. Neither did David Duff.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 24, 2010, 01:26:44 PM
Two CDVs of Victoria
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/victoriaprusia.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 24, 2010, 05:57:35 PM
A CDV with Viktoria having painted eyes

(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4654/hohen.jpg) (http://img837.imageshack.us/i/hohen.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2010, 01:24:35 PM
Strange effect that on her eyes! They ruined that photo!
Form her father's in law coronation, the Crown Princess
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/crownPss.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 30, 2010, 01:50:49 PM
Young Victoria

(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8607/691o.jpg) (http://img703.imageshack.us/i/691o.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2010, 03:45:38 PM
Fascinating! It became one of my favorites... Some special situation? She looks so elegant
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 31, 2010, 01:30:27 PM
Maybe not. Vicky complained the Prussian court changes clothes 3 times a day...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 03, 2011, 11:43:55 AM
Three times a day?!? But why? It's too much for only a common day :-S
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2011, 12:03:50 PM
Indeed, the court is done that way. Vicky found the Prussian court routine boring and the only talk was about men, gossip and clothes.  :(
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: bonbon823 on January 03, 2011, 03:10:07 PM
Geez, my son changes his shirt about 3 or 4 times a day..he would have fit right in.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: larri* on January 05, 2011, 02:02:01 PM
Some portraits of little Vicky: (courtesy of the Royal Collection, National portrait gallery, Christie's,...)

(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/182/11841viktoriaprincessro.jpg) (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/11841viktoriaprincessro.jpg/)

(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2132/31841victoriaprincessro.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/31841victoriaprincessro.jpg/)

(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8640/41841augustvictoria.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/41841augustvictoria.jpg/)

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1360/41841vico.jpg) (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/41841vico.jpg/)

(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4605/51842cavico.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/51842cavico.jpg/)

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9353/81842cavicor.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/81842cavicor.jpg/)

(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6506/91842cavictoriapr.jpg) (http://img267.imageshack.us/i/91842cavictoriapr.jpg/)

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2645/131843victoriapr.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/131843victoriapr.jpg/)

(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4711/161843victoriawhen2year.jpg) (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/161843victoriawhen2year.jpg/)

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5130/171843cavictoriapr.jpg) (http://img502.imageshack.us/i/171843cavictoriapr.jpg/)

(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4872/211844cavictoria.jpg) (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/211844cavictoria.jpg/)

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9568/281845victoriapr.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/281845victoriapr.jpg/)

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1590/291845victoriaprincessr.jpg) (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/291845victoriaprincessr.jpg/)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2011, 08:57:06 AM
I was taught in a colonial situation in Hong Kong to be a "British Subject"....
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 06, 2011, 09:29:18 AM

I wonder how Vicky got through the lonely days trapped with people who just like to change clothes & gossip.

 ??? ??? ??? Where do statements like this come from?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2011, 10:00:53 AM
Based upon Vicky's letter home to ner mother about Prussian Court life.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Sara Araújo on January 06, 2011, 01:11:57 PM
On horseback:

(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAMz6f54BNZ5hAJOLFrAf7tBVJOIEpIo3DkY0HENf-I_1wI29MQV0PlfG6CWLQtRDHkq8u0PQOhUF5olayFLnC70Am1T1UM99wGKx6wOEym5-efR5d6_3ClWz.jpg)

Formal:

(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAABPdMutVT-94niJwX5FX5pulQgznf4fFJVLh5J9z8oqijUirNuc83rt_IfM6KZdxl4CvEIL30MFVJrX8klVKErAAm1T1UHm84R52BGzbXhdyxhMlhBuH1QfM.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 06, 2011, 01:13:59 PM
 (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9118/imagealq.jpg) (http://img413.imageshack.us/i/imagealq.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: THERRY on January 06, 2011, 02:09:32 PM
On horseback:
http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAMz6f54BNZ5hAJOLFrAf7tBVJOIEpIo3DkY0HENf-I_1wI29MQV0PlfG6CWLQtRDHkq8u0PQOhUF5olayFLnC70Am1T1UM99wGKx6wOEym5-efR5d6_3ClWz.jpg
This photo is wonderful !!! I've never seen it and it was a big surprise  ::) Thank You
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Jackblack on February 09, 2011, 02:41:47 PM
I think Vicky herself must have known. In todays term, Vicky wanted no BS but only the honest naked truth. The fact that she outsmarted Willy with her papers meant that she was fully realise what her children were & their failings.


The photo was taken to celebrate Queen Victorias 80th Birthday
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on February 10, 2011, 09:02:40 AM
On horseback:
http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAMz6f54BNZ5hAJOLFrAf7tBVJOIEpIo3DkY0HENf-I_1wI29MQV0PlfG6CWLQtRDHkq8u0PQOhUF5olayFLnC70Am1T1UM99wGKx6wOEym5-efR5d6_3ClWz.jpg
This photo is wonderful !!! I've never seen it and it was a big surprise  ::) Thank You

There are several photos of Vicky in her uniform on horseback inspecting troops. She was very proud of her position and some of her troops provided the escort at her funeral.

What makes this photos so fun is you can clearly see the enjoyment on her face. She was a very strong horsewoman, probably the best of QV's daughters given the relative lack of any photographic imagery of the others on horseback.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 10, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
Great pics all!!  :o
Friedrich and Victoria at young
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/victorialem.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 10, 2011, 04:47:42 PM
Fritz as a young man showed a very handsome set of features, particularly the strong chin and jaw. I would have been great to see him as an older man without his heavy full beard.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 10, 2011, 04:50:54 PM
On horseback:
http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAMz6f54BNZ5hAJOLFrAf7tBVJOIEpIo3DkY0HENf-I_1wI29MQV0PlfG6CWLQtRDHkq8u0PQOhUF5olayFLnC70Am1T1UM99wGKx6wOEym5-efR5d6_3ClWz.jpg
This photo is wonderful !!! I've never seen it and it was a big surprise  ::) Thank You

There are several photos of Vicky in her uniform on horseback inspecting troops. She was very proud of her position and some of her troops provided the escort at her funeral.

What makes this photos so fun is you can clearly see the enjoyment on her face.  She was a very strong horsewoman, probably the best of QV's daughters given the relative lack of any photographic imagery of the others on horseback.  :)

Absolutely joyous. It's so rare to see 19th and early 20th century royals break a smile, and this full blown grin of glee gives a nice feeling that Vicky was very happy at the moment.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 10, 2011, 08:17:57 PM
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8766/436346856o.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/436346856o.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: THERRY on February 11, 2011, 02:15:19 AM
Thank You Katenka, This is new and beautiful !!!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on February 13, 2011, 08:04:58 AM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/2w347zq.jpg)


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/21lmmbm.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on February 13, 2011, 08:12:11 AM


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/11705.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 13, 2011, 08:39:05 AM
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/1301/erye57ye575.jpg) (http://img560.imageshack.us/i/erye57ye575.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 21, 2011, 12:59:16 PM
Posted a verssion of this on a card and in B&W, now in color... Victoria
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/VictoriaFriedrich.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: historyfan on February 21, 2011, 09:47:44 PM
I know people (including herself and her own mother) were highly critical of her looks, but she was very photogenic, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on February 21, 2011, 10:02:27 PM
Right up until the end of her life she had a round-faced, very youthful look - in fact Katenka Fyodorovna's very interesting photograph of Feb 10 shows her with greater maturity than shows in most of her other photos.  I agree she was no great beauty, but I've always thought she had great sweetness of expression.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on February 27, 2011, 02:19:22 PM
Hey! I need your help - I am searching for "bad" quotes of Empress Frederik in addition to her elder children. I think she would always feel kind of distance towards them and I remember some ghastly comments about them and their looks. Don't recall where I found them. Perhaps someone can help and pm me. Thanks in advance!!!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: violetta on February 27, 2011, 04:02:59 PM
Thomas,just be patient. I`ll try to find someting for you.Recently I read correspondence between QV and Princess Royal and I` sure I`ll be able to find something
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 28, 2011, 02:47:18 PM
The burial of Empress Friedrich (Wilhelm II and his spouse Augusta Viktoria standing near to the coffin)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/Vik.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 31, 2011, 01:35:19 PM
Crown Princess Victoria, 1863
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/PrincessRoyal.jpg)

Courtesy: the royal collection
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on March 31, 2011, 03:56:33 PM
That looks like it might have been done as a side portrait to the family one done of Vicky, Frederick, Wilhelm and Charlotte.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Zukunftsseele on April 13, 2011, 06:00:04 PM
She looks so much like her mother. It's amazing. :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on April 14, 2011, 05:21:56 AM
Hey! I need your help - I am searching for "bad" quotes of Empress Frederik in addition to her elder children. I think she would always feel kind of distance towards them and I remember some ghastly comments about them and their looks. Don't recall where I found them. Perhaps someone can help and pm me. Thanks in advance!!!

I'm not sure it was 'distance' - rather a highly critical closeness.  Her letter to Queen Victoria of May 23, 1874, shows this quite interestingly.  She says of the 14 year old Charlotte that she "has greatly improved in every way these four weeks.  She is gentle and amiable and willing to do all she is told, and much nicer towards the brothers and sisters....Clever she is not - and never will be; she has few or no interests - no taste for learning or reading, for art or for natural history, so it is no use to expect these things of her - one cannot force them into existence......."  Comparing her (unfavourably) to her sisters, she added "Charlotte is in everything - health, looks and understanding like a child of ten!"  Of the two eldest boys, in the same letter she wrote "...Willy is so forward in every way, has changed his voice and become quite a young man!  Henry is awfully backward in everything, and does not  grow - is hopelessly lazy - dull and idle about his lessons - but such a good-natured boy - everybody likes him though he is dreadfully provoking to teach from being so desperately slow!  Willy, Waldy and Vicky have monopolised the brains of the family, and I think that the three little ones will be very sharp, and I do not think any of them are downright stupid, and on the whole I must say they are very good."

She didn’t seem to understand the unintellectual child, and couldn’t really relate to the boredom such children could experience in lessons, nor their lack of interest in the things which interested her.  But I don’t think it was distance – rather it was seeing them as extensions of herself and her failing to get them to measure up to the high standards she expected of herself.  The fact that poor Henry (aged 12!) was desperately slow at lessons was more important to her than that he seemed a pleasant child whom everyone liked – because that was the standard she was judging him by.  In fact the younger children weren’t especially intellectual by her terms but in a way by then she was more distant – she had the experience by then to step back and view her children a little more objectively.  So I don’t think it was a lack of love but rather the not uncommon phenomenon of the eldest child or children (and the three eldest were born pretty close together, so seemed to form one unit in the family) who are the ones the parents have to struggle with – is it right or wrong to do this?  Are they especially slow and should I worry?  And of course, the fact that the parents were simultaneously having to defer/fight the influence of the Emperor and Empress, who had very different views on how the children – especially the boys - should be brought up and educated, made it even harder to achieve a degree of balance.  Once can of course scour Victoria’s correspondence and find a great deal of critical remarks, especially (though not exclusively) of the three eldest children, but as the 1874 letter shows it wasn’t always critical and her real problem was a lack of empathy with different characteristics or levels of intelligence.  But she just didn’t seem to be able to stand back and allow the children to be a bit slow or bored, despite what she wrote to her mother.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 15, 2011, 07:19:56 AM
Victoria (retouched one)

(http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/1650/19408.jpg) (http://img852.imageshack.us/i/19408.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Zukunftsseele on April 15, 2011, 12:44:14 PM
That's a great one. I think I saw it on ebay recently.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 02, 2011, 01:30:57 PM
Victoria and her kids
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/viky2.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 03, 2011, 01:06:51 PM
Crown Princess Victoria
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/CPPrussia.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: THERRY on May 06, 2011, 01:52:16 AM

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9089/theprincessroyal.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/theprincessroyal.jpg/)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: historyfan on May 06, 2011, 08:31:27 AM
That's an unusual title, isn't it?  "The Princess Royal of Germany?"
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 06, 2011, 10:51:55 AM
yes, this must be an anglicized version of Crown Princess or a mistake by the person lettering the piece. Very likely an English piece, so it could also be "(our) Princess Royal (now) of Germany".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: historyfan on May 06, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
All right, so, help me with the dating of the photo - to say "Germany" instead of "Prussia" would mean this photo was taken after unification?  Judging from her apparent age in this photo, is that the case?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: THERRY on May 07, 2011, 02:19:49 AM
The photos I have included is a scan of a CDV that I bought on EBay and there is no indication of dates, unfortunately
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on May 07, 2011, 04:43:58 AM
Victoria was born in 1840 and looks pretty mature in that photograph - certainly in her thirties.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on May 07, 2011, 04:46:20 AM
The photos I have included is a scan of a CDV that I bought on EBay and there is no indication of dates, unfortunately

Her dress is 1870-71 years fashion.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 09, 2011, 09:51:11 AM
All right, so, help me with the dating of the photo - to say "Germany" instead of "Prussia" would mean this photo was taken after unification?  Judging from her apparent age in this photo, is that the case?

"Germany" was commonly used prior to 1881 in reference to any of the former states making up the Holy Roman Empire of the German People.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 26, 2011, 01:51:53 PM
The Princess Royal through the time
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/PrincesaReal.jpg)
Husband and wife
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/Princess_Royal_Victoria_20.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 03, 2011, 02:04:46 PM
Young Victoria
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Vintage%20Dreams/pssroyal.jpg)

Miniature from The Royal Collection
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 07, 2011, 05:12:13 PM
Vicky had always been charming and intelligent, but she could be stubborn too and it led her into trouble. She inherited this trait from her mother, who could afford it since she was the monarch.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 14, 2011, 01:35:02 PM
Young and lovely
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/wenn_10.jpg)
Drawing
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/untitled.jpg)
Profile
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/vict_0.jpg)
With her lovely dress at her father's in law coronation. Now more noticeable the trims on the train of her gown
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/wenn_22.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 14, 2011, 01:44:44 PM
Was the drawing by Lenbach ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 15, 2011, 01:12:11 PM
The marriage of the Pss Royal
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Vintage%20Dreams/CCC0858185A.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 25, 2011, 08:46:31 AM
Friedrich

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3231/portraitweb1.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 25, 2011, 12:05:34 PM
I wonder what year it was taken ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Duchess of Diego on July 04, 2011, 02:24:42 PM
I have read An Uncommon Woman and the Empress Victoria is one of my favorite royals! Seeing so many photos of her, Fritz and their children, I wondered which children look like which parent? Not sure why, but it's hard for me to see any strong resemblances...hope this isn't superficial and hasn't been asked before :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 04, 2011, 04:30:10 PM
Willy (Kaiser Wilhelm II) thought he resembled his mother in looks and temperment.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 04, 2011, 09:30:45 PM
I believe Henry looked a good bit like Fritz--especially through the eyes. Waldemar also. From the few photos seen, Sigismund looked to take after Vicky more. It's odd, I don't see a real resemblance between the parents and any of the girls--Charlotte did look a bit like Fritz when younger though. Vicky and Fritz were both fair-haired and blue-eyed so it's a toss-up when it comes to coloring.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 07, 2011, 12:21:12 PM
The next two are courtesy from the site avictorian
The young Princess Royal in ridding habit and her brother
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Vintage%20Dreams/Avictoria1.jpg)
Victoria and Fritz
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Vintage%20Dreams/Avictorian.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2011, 02:19:21 PM
Vicky was still much a child when she married Fritz. One should forgive the early letters she wrote home dishing the Prussian court.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 07, 2011, 04:46:58 PM
I have the 2nd print from the Illustrated London News of the time framed and hung on the wall--along with a 2nd one of the young Vicky. After Grand Duchess Elizabeth, she's my favorite royal--male or female.  :)

It would be looked askance now but it's hard to believe that 14 year old Vicky became engaged to an almost 24 year old Fritz but neither one of them ever looked back--or apparently at another. Definitely my favorite royal romance.  :)  She definitely knew her own mind and on paper (because all humans have their faults and flaws) Fritz couldn't have been more a fairy tale prince if he'd been made up.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: wildone on July 08, 2011, 01:50:14 AM
I believe Henry looked a good bit like Fritz--especially through the eyes. Waldemar also. From the few photos seen, Sigismund looked to take after Vicky more. It's odd, I don't see a real resemblance between the parents and any of the girls--Charlotte did look a bit like Fritz when younger though. Vicky and Fritz were both fair-haired and blue-eyed so it's a toss-up when it comes to coloring.

There's a portrait of young Fritz in An Uncommon Woman where I could really see the resemblance between him and Willy.  There seems to be a greater resemblance between the two of them once Willy is older (and let his moustache droop and grew a beard) as well.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 08, 2011, 07:50:42 AM
Portrait of young Friedrich

(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/564/fiii48.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/fiii48.jpg/)
 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 08, 2011, 09:23:30 AM
I think someone wrote that Fritz resembled Hamlet in looks...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 08, 2011, 12:42:33 PM
Young and lovely Victoria
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/Vicky1.jpg)
Courtesy: Look and Learn
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 08, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
illustration of victoria and friedrich in costume

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/619/1975n.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/1975n.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 08, 2011, 03:48:47 PM
I think I saw a photo of Vicky in this costume but not Fritz.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 09, 2011, 08:08:42 AM
There you go. 1875

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6682/lein113.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/lein113.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 10, 2011, 02:42:33 PM
Thanks ! He does look dashing !  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Sara Araújo on November 16, 2011, 01:36:57 PM
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/PQAAAG1z_-rq61s4PkRBVIgmQSBoCMU5P-4oGidhNCmb9N4vQpukuE8bJv7mAFPVhBznn_Tj5mlwW2kRe7BWj9ZIAIkAm1T1UF267dkfX0JZWr_aKDlAeYXe-YJy.jpg)

The Princess Royal and the Prince of Wales by Prince Albert
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2011, 02:06:43 PM
Bertie & Vicky were very close as children, but he always felt inferior to his big sister. Emotionally, Alice was closer to him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 17, 2011, 06:58:33 AM
So now we know where the kids got their talent from!!.

Here a nice drawn of  Pss Helena made by Viktoria

(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6598/psshelenabyvicky.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/psshelenabyvicky.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2011, 01:42:32 PM
Is that by Vicky of her sister or the Queen of her daughter ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Veronica on November 17, 2011, 03:00:46 PM
It was done by Vicky in 1863.
It has been auctioned recently along with other drawings done by her and her sisters.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2011, 04:15:20 PM
Vicky was quite smart and talented.  ;)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Petr on December 12, 2011, 11:58:37 AM
A new biography of Kaiser Friedrich III has just been published entitled Our Fritz by Frank Lorenz Muller (Harvard, 340 pages $45). There is an interesting review by Martin Rubin in today's Wall Street Journal which raises the question what would have happened if he had not died in 1888 after reigning only 99 days. It posits that he would have been a much more liberal Kaiser than is son and, as opposed to Wilhelm II, would have directed Germany away from the more aggressive policies of his successor thereby possibly changing the course of the 20th Century. I was struck in reading the review by the possible parallel "what if" regarding the untimely death of Alexander III in 1894 at the age of 49. While considered a conservative some believe (myself included) that had his reign extended longer than merely 13 years World War I could have been averted and he would have had a restraining influence on Wilhelm. He was, after all, considered a "man of peace" in his time. It's interesting to compare how the untimely deaths of their fathers had such different results on their sons.  Had Friedrich and Alexander lived into their 70's would Wilhelm have been less impetuous and Nicholas more resolute?  Another interesting historical imponderable.

Petr   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: darius on December 12, 2011, 12:39:55 PM
The same influence may have been brought to bear on the Kaiser had Edward VII not died in 1910...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Petr on December 13, 2011, 10:37:41 AM
As his uncle Edward did have a restraining influence on Wilhelm but he was 67 when he died and by that time I think Wilhelm's character was pretty much formed. I think his father, had he lived longer, would have had a more lasting impact. At a minimum I think he could have guided his education along more liberal lines and would have been able to resist to a much greater degree than his wife the more conservative impluses of Bismarck, the Prussian Court and the Army which had such an impact on Wilhelm.


Petr   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2011, 05:25:34 PM
I think with George, Wilhelm and Nicholas, the die is cast. Had it been Friedrich, Edward and Alexander it would have been different...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 21, 2011, 01:08:19 PM
The Crown Princess...
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Vintage%20Dreams/PRV.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2011, 01:25:48 PM
Cigarette or Chocolate card ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 22, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
Cigarette or Chocolate card ?

Colored CDV
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 23, 2011, 10:03:18 AM
More like a painting than a photo.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 01, 2012, 07:08:11 AM
A new biography of Kaiser Friedrich III has just been published entitled Our Fritz by Frank Lorenz Muller (Harvard, 340 pages $45). There is an interesting review by Martin Rubin in today's Wall Street Journal which raises the question what would have happened if he had not died in 1888 after reigning only 99 days. It posits that he would have been a much more liberal Kaiser than is son and, as opposed to Wilhelm II, would have directed Germany away from the more aggressive policies of his successor thereby possibly changing the course of the 20th Century.

Petr   

I have read the WSJ review, but also other reviews and sections of the book itself as well as earlier articles by Mueller, and to be honest I think the WSJ review misrepresents what the author is saying. Part of Mueller's thesis is to examine the idea that the lost prince, liberal "Fritz" persona beloved of royal biographers was a public construct by Fritz himself and by the press, and that Friedrich III's views and opinions were not so far out of the mainstream of contemporary Prussia - in some regards he was a liberal; in others he was not; a longer reign for Fritz may not have made such a difference as the myth suggests. It's a moot point how much influence either he or Wilhelm had over policy, despite Wilhelm's aggressive public proclamations about autocracy. Friedrich III may have done less than Wilhelm did to poison peoples' views of Germany, but did Wilhelm himself actually want a war in 1914? And when it came to it did anyone care?

Mueller's book sounds very interesting and is exactly the sort of thing I like in a biography, full of analysis about the interplay between reality and image and so forth, instead of taking such things at face value as an expression of the person the way that less serious bios often do.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Petr on January 01, 2012, 05:32:00 PM
Interesting question to ponder...had Fritz lived longer would Vicky's influence been greater in the Court and with her son tempering Bismarck's and the General's influence on Wilhem. That, in and of itself, might have altered history.


Petr   
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Dru on January 01, 2012, 06:06:48 PM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6610483093_0256f88d5b_b.jpg)

Friedrich and Victoria.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 02, 2012, 11:15:24 AM
I agree that even if Fritz was 100% healthy and rule for 10+years (like his brother-in-law Bertie). He would not have make a 360 to liberalism. Most likely both he and Vicky would introduce some liberal aspects into the strict military type of rule that Bismark introduced. Not spring cleaning but a breath of much needed fresh air, and yes that would counter balance Bismark and make Germany a bit more liberal and balanced. Yes I also believe that could be one of the factors in avoiding WWI.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Dru on January 16, 2012, 12:31:42 PM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7001/6709359975_3127138c5e_b.jpg)

Victoria.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2012, 03:56:36 PM
Idealized print of Vicky. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 17, 2012, 12:36:40 PM
It's a two-page print that was published in the Illustrated London News at the time of her wedding. I have a copy framed on my wall.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 17, 2012, 11:08:20 PM
Very nice for framing as the paper was quite fragile.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 31, 2012, 12:10:02 PM
What beautiful print, thanks for sharing!!
I found this painting recently, Victoria and her mother the queen
Click here! (http://www.paintinghere.com/painting/Queen_Victoria_And_Princess_Royal_Visit_Napolean's_Boudoir_23581.html)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 31, 2012, 12:38:06 PM
Looks a bit like a collage than a painting.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Petr on February 01, 2012, 06:46:01 AM
I agree that even if Fritz was 100% healthy and rule for 10+years (like his brother-in-law Bertie). He would not have make a 360 to liberalism. Most likely both he and Vicky would introduce some liberal aspects into the strict military type of rule that Bismark introduced. Not spring cleaning but a breath of much needed fresh air, and yes that would counter balance Bismark and make Germany a bit more liberal and balanced. Yes I also believe that could be one of the factors in avoiding WWI.

As a total non-sequitor (but somewhat related) in today's International Herald Tribune's Science podcast you can hear the only known recording of Bismarck's voice on a recently discovered wax cylinder recorded at Bismarck's castle by an agent of Thomas Edison in 1889.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 01, 2012, 03:35:46 PM
does he sound like Hitler ? Without Bismark, there will be no Hitler...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Petr on February 01, 2012, 05:57:54 PM
No but it is a bit hard to hear him. Actually, I understand he had a good sense of humor in a teutonic sense of way.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2012, 03:03:45 PM
Typical of the junker class I imagine. Maybe that's one of the reason why he cannot get along with Vicky. Bismark had more respect for Fritz...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on February 03, 2012, 01:22:24 AM
Bismarck rather admired Queen Victoria. 'A woman you could do business with!'

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 03, 2012, 05:34:01 PM
Yes but not Vicky. He referred to her as "the English Woman"...He made her life miserable and really nothing more than a bully. It was great of Vicky not to gloat when he begged her to intercede for him (the gall !) after Willy dropped him. She told him plainly because he destroyed her relationship with Willy, she cannot do anything for him.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 06, 2012, 01:12:45 PM
These must come from the Royal Collection but I found them in other site, anyways, here they come
Pss Royal in costume, miniature
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/pssroyal.jpg)
Pss Royal in wedding day (based on her well known photo)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/AncientRoyalty/pssroyalwedd.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 06, 2012, 01:26:05 PM
Think they might be from the Royal Collection...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Dru on May 24, 2012, 04:01:49 PM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7219/7263882176_5f69802b0b_c.jpg)

Engraving of Princess Royal Victoria.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: historyfan on May 24, 2012, 09:53:57 PM
If it wasn't labelled, I would think I was looking at Queen Victoria.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Hector on September 04, 2012, 12:22:40 AM
Something I've wondered about what whether there were other potential brides for then Prince Frederick of Prussia besides the Princess Royal? Just seems like whatever I read about him, it's only her that's mentioned, but there have been other royal candidates pushed for by other people, right?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on September 04, 2012, 05:11:39 AM
Good point.

Friedrich was 27 when he married, which was a little  on the mature side at time.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2012, 08:51:41 AM
Yes I agree.

Although I wondered who he could have married. Maybe Elisabeth of Wied  ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2012, 09:04:14 AM
It seems like she was always the preferred candidate of his parents--and hers--going back to his late teen years. I don't know that they ever really considered anyone else--especially since Fritz's own feelings became engaged so early on as well.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Hector on September 04, 2012, 11:06:11 AM
Prince Frederick and the Princess Royal were already engaged by April 1855 when Princess Elisabeth of Wied was only nine years old, so unless it's mentioned in some document from that era, seems Wied was a real candidate in any sense. Wikipedia (I know not always the greater source) mentions that Prince Frederick's father hoped he would marry a Russian Grand Duchess (his father's favourite sister, Charlotte, was the Russian Empress). But that doesn't make much sense to me since looking at the Grand Duchesses around, there was Grand Duchess Catherine Mikhailovna, but she was already married by 1851 and she was also four years older then Prince Frederick so that is unlikely in the extreme. Then the other Grand Duchesses were all little children (Grand Duke Nicholas's daughters Olga (b. 1851) and Vera (b. 1854) and the Emperor's daughter Marie (b. 1853)). Seems unlikely the Prussia court would accept the Emperor's niece Maria since she was a not a royal in the male-line with her paternal grandfather being Napoleon Bonaparte's step-son. Maybe Alexandra of Oldenburg (granddaughter of Emperor Alexander I's favourite sister, Catherine) since she was considered part of the Romanov family, but that seems unlikely since you think somebody in this forum would have mentioned her earlier.

Also just looking around for Protestant princesses around at that time who were closer in age to Prince Frederick, but that would just be speculation on my part.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2012, 11:45:38 AM
Yes. Also I don't see Fritz looking for a bride earlier in his life.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on October 08, 2012, 08:12:28 AM
A nice photo of Fritz it's from eBay.de

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/CDV-Kaiser-Friedrich-III-Koenig-v-Preussen-m-Uniform-Orden-a-Kronprinz-1870-/00/s/NTk0WDM4Ng==/$(KGrHqJ,!pYF!0!b(rHPBQZK,uRmb!~~60_12.JPG)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 08, 2012, 08:19:12 PM
I find Fritz one of the most handsome royal men but even he has trouble pulling that look! He was young and dashing with just the moustache (around the time of his engagement and marriage) and then later distinguished with his full beard but that in-between look was thankfully one that didn't last long.

To me at least, you can really see a resemblance to Wilhelm II in Fritz's face--especially if you take away the mutton chops and try and focus on the face with just the moustache. It really seems to resemble some of Wilhelm's younger photos when he had a more normal-size moustache.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Dru on October 08, 2012, 09:29:37 PM
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8454/8069314210_abeb7e54df_b.jpg)

Little Victoria with her father, Prince Albert.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2012, 10:28:39 AM
Yes the Prince Consort call Vicky "Pussy".
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: OctoberLily on October 23, 2012, 10:54:35 PM
I find Fritz one of the most handsome royal men but even he has trouble pulling that look! He was young and dashing with just the moustache (around the time of his engagement and marriage) and then later distinguished with his full beard but that in-between look was thankfully one that didn't last long.

To me at least, you can really see a resemblance to Wilhelm II in Fritz's face--especially if you take away the mutton chops and try and focus on the face with just the moustache. It really seems to resemble some of Wilhelm's younger photos when he had a more normal-size moustache.

I've always felt that Fritz was a very handsome man. I also agree about the strong physical resemblance between him and Wilhelm II.  But, IMHO, Willy lacked the thing that made Fritz so handsome and distinguished......the kindness in the eyes.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2012, 08:38:34 AM
Indeed Willy was rather fake...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 24, 2012, 10:32:58 AM
Hi folks! im glad to be back!

I found this image in a chilean magazine about weddings. Of course it had no info about but i recognized them in a sec!

(http://imageshack.us/a/img100/4785/img015am.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/img015am.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 06, 2012, 05:38:37 PM
Indeed Willy was rather fake...

Willy was probably one of the least "fake" royals of his time or afterward. He tended to wear his real emotions on his arm sleeves which was, in part, the reason why he also tended to create distances between himself and others.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on December 19, 2012, 12:25:04 PM
It's this Fritz..?   https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/v/224907_503829872970917_935272578_n.jpg?oh=f0a6e82ab50ddadb82d3c772113684d0&oe=50D3EE98&__gda__=1356110211_673bce155bc07b18aef59a718d12c56b
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 19, 2012, 12:34:05 PM
Nope.1000000% sure ;-)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on December 19, 2012, 01:17:14 PM
But who is him?..he looks so familiar
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 19, 2012, 01:26:13 PM
Honestly, he doesnt look like any well known royal ...at least those that i know :-( .
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 19, 2012, 02:08:17 PM
Not Fritz !
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Sara Araújo on December 20, 2012, 10:55:13 AM
A portrait of Victoria, seven months pregnant with her eldest son:

http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/403638/victoria-princess-royal-crown-princess-frederick-william-of-prussia
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 20, 2012, 06:17:30 PM
She looked a bit plump.  :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Dru on June 11, 2013, 09:19:25 PM
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/9022318074_4137cd49c6_o.jpg)

First time I've seen this large and in color; download for full size.  By Winterhalter.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 11, 2013, 10:27:37 PM
Royal Collection ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Dru on June 11, 2013, 10:29:19 PM
Royal Collection ?

I think it originally came from the Royal Collection, but that's not where I found it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 19, 2013, 10:37:04 AM
The Church of Peace mausaleum in the Royal Park at Potsdam has an additional occupant--King Frederick Wilhelm, the soldier king and father of Frederick the Great.

It may be temporary, but my sense is that Fritz and Vicky and their two boys may feel a bit intruded upon.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on June 19, 2013, 11:13:43 AM
How has Friedrich Wilhelm I come to be there temporarily?


I too doubt that he and Vicky would find much in common!

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 19, 2013, 11:19:34 AM
He was the one who married Princess Sophia Dorothea of Hannover, sister of King George I of Great Britain...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 19, 2013, 02:44:05 PM
How has Friedrich Wilhelm I come to be there temporarily?


I too doubt that he and Vicky would find much in common!

Ann

His original burial site was the Garrison Church in Potsdam, as was the case with his son Frederick the Great. He was removed for safe-keeping during the war, and after the Church was destroyed, his coffin was moved a few times to various locations until it finally found refuge in the Kaiser Frederich mausoleum. On a recent visit there, I was told the placement was relatively recent, but some sources indicate his coffin has been there since shortly after Unification. Either way, it's an addition that seems awkward at best and doesn't seem right to dump this distance, very different relative in Fritz and Vicky's etermal resting place. I would have put him in a simple grave near Sanssouci where his son's memory would overshadow him completely.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 19, 2013, 04:13:19 PM
I don't think Vicky would mind since she had a much grander tomb than he did being an Empress than a mere king.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: DNAgenie on June 19, 2013, 06:51:43 PM
Quote
His original burial site was the Garrison Church in Potsdam, as was the case with his son Frederick the Great. He was removed for safe-keeping during the war, and after the Church was destroyed, his coffin was moved a few times to various locations until it finally found refuge in the Kaiser Friedrich mausoleum. On a recent visit there, I was told the placement was relatively recent, but some sources indicate his coffin has been there since shortly after Unification. Either way, it's an addition that seems awkward at best and doesn't seem right to dump this distance, very different relative in Fritz and Vicky's eternal resting place. I would have put him in a simple grave near Sanssouci where his son's memory would overshadow him completely.

I think it is quite appropriate. He was Fritz's GGG grandfather and he died in Potsdam. Where else would he be interred?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 20, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
Quote
His original burial site was the Garrison Church in Potsdam, as was the case with his son Frederick the Great. He was removed for safe-keeping during the war, and after the Church was destroyed, his coffin was moved a few times to various locations until it finally found refuge in the Kaiser Friedrich mausoleum. On a recent visit there, I was told the placement was relatively recent, but some sources indicate his coffin has been there since shortly after Unification. Either way, it's an addition that seems awkward at best and doesn't seem right to dump this distance, very different relative in Fritz and Vicky's eternal resting place. I would have put him in a simple grave near Sanssouci where his son's memory would overshadow him completely.

I think it is quite appropriate. He was Fritz's GGG grandfather and he died in Potsdam. Where else would he be interred?

There are many, many places that Hohenzollern monarchs and their families are interred, not only in Potsdam, but also Berlin and Burg Hohenzollern. The simple fact that he was Fritz's GGG grandfather does not make sharing a mausoleum, designed for Fritz and family, appropriate, especially after 100 years of the hallowed place being specifically for the immediate family. Obviously, someone thought otherwise and plopped the old king at the feet of Fritz and Vicky between the two boys which I find inappropriate and disruptive.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on June 20, 2013, 03:49:36 AM
I don't think FWI should be overshadowed completely. Though he was clearly hell to love with, he was an interesting figure and, of course, a king.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on June 20, 2013, 03:50:22 AM
Just seen my typo. I meant that FWI was hell to LIVE with!

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 20, 2013, 09:37:32 AM
Hi Ann,

I loved your typo - and he probably was hard to love with also!!!!!

Larry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on June 20, 2013, 09:57:49 AM
I thought that too, but decided I'd better make that clear.

When I was doing history as a student, I did a course on 18th century Europe, where the lecturer was a great enthusiast for reading the letters between FWI and Frederick the Great, and also spent a good chunk of one lecture telling us all about FWI's deathbed, which lasted about six weeks, so plenty of time for good stories.

At one point someone thout to assemble a large choir outside the royal bedchamber to sing suitable hymns and anthems. One began, 'Naked came I into the world, naked will I leave it,' at which the king sat bolt upright and called for his uniform!

Then a chaplain arrived and declared, 'Now your Majesty, the end is very near and you must forgive all your enemies.' 'All,' said the king, 'Even George II?' 'All,' says the chaplain. 'Then are you quite sure I'm dying?' 'Yes.' 'Oh very well, I forgive all my enemies, but only if I'm actually dying.'

George II was Sophia Dorothea's brother, which suggests that married life in Potsdam was less than harmonious.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 20, 2013, 11:48:03 AM
I thought that too, but decided I'd better make that clear.

When I was doing history as a student, I did a course on 18th century Europe, where the lecturer was a great enthusiast for reading the letters between FWI and Frederick the Great, and also spent a good chunk of one lecture telling us all about FWI's deathbed, which lasted about six weeks, so plenty of time for good stories.

At one point someone thout to assemble a large choir outside the royal bedchamber to sing suitable hymns and anthems. One began, 'Naked came I into the world, naked will I leave it,' at which the king sat bolt upright and called for his uniform!
Then a chaplain arrived and declared, 'Now your Majesty, the end is very near and you must forgive all your enemies.' 'All,' said the king, 'Even George II?' 'All,' says the chaplain. 'Then are you quite sure I'm dying?' 'Yes.' 'Oh very well, I forgive all my enemies, but only if I'm actually dying.'

George II was Sophia Dorothea's brother, which suggests that married life in Potsdam was less than harmonious.

Ann

Excellent anecdote! Using Biblical verse is often interesting if not downright funny in certain situations. Parenthetically, I recall a good Pastor friend of mine whose close Pastor friend made a visit to the home of a parishioner who had not been seen at Church for some time. He rang the doorbell and knew the woman was inside. But she did not answer the door. He left his card in the door with a note, "Behold I stand at the door and knock", Revelations 3:20.

In a couple days, the Pastor recieved a note from the wayward parishioner that said "I was afraid because I was naked so I hid myself", Genesis 3:10
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 20, 2013, 12:31:11 PM
He should have his own tomb...
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on June 21, 2013, 04:07:08 AM
In the first half of the 20th century there was a Royal Navy practice of sending signals between ships in the form of biblical quotations. Unfortunately, few have the necessary scriptural knowledge these days.

Back to topic, yes, it's about time that FWI had a permanent burial. How about in the Friedenkirche itself - designed by his great-great-grandson Friedrich Wilhelm IV and incorporating a beautiful Byzantine mosaic which FWIV saved from a church in Italy which was about to be demolished?

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 21, 2013, 11:08:06 AM
Good choice Ann.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 21, 2013, 11:43:38 AM
In the first half of the 20th century there was a Royal Navy practice of sending signals between ships in the form of biblical quotations. Unfortunately, few have the necessary scriptural knowledge these days.

Back to topic, yes, it's about time that FWI had a permanent burial. How about in the Friedenkirche itself - designed by his great-great-grandson Friedrich Wilhelm IV and incorporating a beautiful Byzantine mosaic which FWIV saved from a church in Italy which was about to be demolished?

Ann

That would be a good alternate place, and he'd only have to be moved a few feet. My guess is that the Church itself, being open to the public would necessitate his coffin being buried. His son is buried so it would seem perfectly fine historically and from a protocol view. As a very big rascal, fighter, and generally aggressive man, his being laid to rest in the Church of "Peace" might be conflicting.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on December 01, 2013, 01:23:56 PM
(http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/ba006909/index.jpg)

Fritz, 1860
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2013, 02:43:53 PM
A True Hamlet according to Empress Eugenie of France.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 03, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
A True Hamlet according to Empress Eugenie of France.

What was she thinking? Fritz a 'true Hamlet?' Anything but.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 03, 2013, 07:11:49 PM
The Empress wrote of him as such in 1857 (following his visit to her and the Emperor) to  Countess Walewski:

"“The Prince is a tall, handsome man, almost a head taller than the Emperor; he is slim and fair, with a light yellow moustache—in fact, a Teuton such as Tacitus described, chivalrously polite, and not without a resemblance to Hamlet. "
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2013, 01:32:44 PM
That was the quote.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on December 04, 2013, 02:22:03 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QSV8hW-NBww/So2cbJnsGeI/AAAAAAAADsI/h89ZfJhPBCM/s1600/Anton+von+Werner+-+Studie+Prinzess+Margarethe+und+Sophie+%281887%29.JPG)

Anton von Werner - Study of Princess Margarete & Sophie (1887)

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 04, 2013, 04:15:51 PM
The Empress wrote of him as such in 1857 (following his visit to her and the Emperor) to  Countess Walewski:

"“The Prince is a tall, handsome man, almost a head taller than the Emperor; he is slim and fair, with a light yellow moustache—in fact, a Teuton such as Tacitus described, chivalrously polite, and not without a resemblance to Hamlet. "

Ah, so the reference is only relative to her impression of his pure physical appearance; nothing to do with personality, actions, or moral code.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on December 05, 2013, 03:00:39 AM
I've never thought of Friedrich as being much like Hamlet. In white uniforms he looks more like Lohengrin anyway!

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Vecchiolarry on December 05, 2013, 09:02:06 AM
Hi Ann,

Yes, I was just thinking that myself when I scrolled down and saw your post.

He is much more Lohengrin (German) than Hamlet (Danish);  and much more stalwart in appearance and not morose...
He is/was much more courtly and approachable, I think, than brooding and insuller and suspicious....  I can see Frederick laughing and dancing and sociable;  but Hamlet - ???

Larry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 05, 2013, 05:13:17 PM
Well, he was only in his early 20s when the Empress wrote that about him. Photos from that period show him as more slender, with his golden moustache and not yet with his thick beard.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lies9oJ9xF1qcp6xao1_500.jpg)


(http://www.grosvenorprints.com/jpegs/12382.jpg)

(http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/egallery/images/collection_large/421051.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2013, 01:08:01 AM
I think Eugenie saw the gentle side of Fritz, and his torn between his warring parents. It was a tragedy that none of his parents were fond of Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 10, 2013, 09:17:39 AM


I've never thought of Friedrich as being much like Hamlet. In white uniforms he looks more like Lohengrin anyway!

Ann


Hi Ann,

Yes, I was just thinking that myself when I scrolled down and saw your post.

He is much more Lohengrin (German) than Hamlet (Danish);  and much more stalwart in appearance and not morose...
He is/was much more courtly and approachable, I think, than brooding and insuller and suspicious....  I can see Frederick laughing and dancing and sociable;  but Hamlet - ???

Larry

I agree. Fritz seems far more a Lohengrin than a Hamlet, both in appearance and character. It always has troubled me that a comment such as Eugenie's gets established as a truth simply because it was made by a notable personality. Not unlike Dona being labeled a "cow" and Charlotte labeled "brat", the verified comments don't always (maybe rarely?) reflect the true nature of the person being commented about.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Vecchiolarry on December 10, 2013, 09:36:27 AM
Hello HerrKaiser,

Yes, I agree with you most vehemently.  Calling people names, especially since we don't know them personally, is reprehensible and bullying actually.
I don't know much, if anything, about Charlotte - I thought she was good looking!!! - but I have to admire Victoria Augusta for putting up with a difficult position and maintaining many 'good works' in Prussia...  She also looked like an Empress - very impressive and stalwart!!

Larry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2013, 05:42:35 PM
Well...It was Bismark who called Dona "The cow from Holstein" and because of his position he could get away with it. As for "The Brat" it was a name that Charlotte strangely relish for some reason even signing it in her photographs to her relatives. I think she viewed herself as a rebel. She most certainly did not respect Dona and made fun of her behind her back with her "fast set" of friends in Berlin.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 10, 2013, 06:22:57 PM
Let's not veer off-topic, please.

I don't think anything was meant by Eugenie's comment--it was her opinion of the slender, golden-haired prince at that time in her life and his. It wasn't meant disparagingly--she was a great fan of his and Vicky's. I think too much is being read into it. He doesn't strike me as a Lohengrin until later in his life with his soldierly bearing (hardened by war) and his thick beard. His bearing when he was roughly 20-23 is much different from him at 40-43.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Vecchiolarry on December 11, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Hi,

My premise is that - no matter whatever names they called themselves or each other, it is not our place to do so....  I don't care what Bismark called the Empress, he was disrespectful and rude;  and we should not be.

Larry
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2013, 08:45:46 PM
I agree with Eugenie that Fritz was very much a romantic figure (Hamlet) during his youth.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: OctoberLily on December 11, 2013, 11:16:21 PM
Amen, Larry.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on December 12, 2013, 03:42:17 AM
Me too.

Interesting that Empress Eugenie likened Friedrich to Hamlet. I always think of Hamlet as dark, plus, describing someone as a Hamlet in Britain today is not a compliment. It has connotations of exaggeration and melodrama - a footballer rolling around on the ground after being tackled is 'playing Hamlet'.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 12, 2013, 09:34:00 AM
Hi,

My premise is that - no matter whatever names they called themselves or each other, it is not our place to do so....  I don't care what Bismark called the Empress, he was disrespectful and rude;  and we should not be.

Larry

Well said. Particularly when casual use of calling Dona a "cow" serves to wrongly establish her image and persona amongst people who do not know and appreciate her true regal, sophisticated, and highly attractive being.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Превед on December 12, 2013, 09:55:22 AM
Well said. Particularly when casual use of calling Dona a "cow" serves to wrongly establish her image and persona amongst people who do not know and appreciate her true regal, sophisticated, and highly attractive being.

Personally I see her neither as a cow nor as full of grandezza, but as the Kirchen-Guste who built hundred churches in the vain effort to save the working classes from Socialism.

BTW that (the bigotted church stuff) is just one of many striking similarities between VA and AF. Both empresses so reclusive, so devoted to their children, their husbands and nursing their husbands' frail (delusional) autocratic egos. No wonder they couldn't stand each other, as they probably saw some of their own bad qualities reflected in each other.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 12, 2013, 01:59:17 PM
Well said. Particularly when casual use of calling Dona a "cow" serves to wrongly establish her image and persona amongst people who do not know and appreciate her true regal, sophisticated, and highly attractive being.

Personally I see her neither as a cow nor as full of grandezza, but as the Kirchen-Guste who built hundred churches in the vain effort to save the working classes from Socialism.

BTW that (the bigotted church stuff) is just one of many striking similarities between VA and AF. Both empresses so reclusive, so devoted to their children, their husbands and nursing their husbands' frail (delusional) autocratic egos. No wonder they couldn't stand each other, as they probably saw some of their own bad qualities reflected in each other.

Good points. I agree with some of those similarities between VA and AF.  However, I don't think Dona can be viewed any where near the recluse that AF was; in fact, is there anywhere she is actually characterized as a recluse? I've always seen, read, and heard of her as a very willing participant in social and private doings.

I also don't think the motivation for Dona's building sponsorships was saving the masses from socialism. Rather, she was a devoted Christian and committed to the beautification of the cityscapes which her churches most definitely added a sense of splendor we enjoy today (what's left of them, that is).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2013, 06:50:20 PM
Also Dona was as mild as a cow to Willy's wishes unlike AF who instilled her own wishes in politics via Rasputin even to the point of bullying her husband. Willy never had that kind of love for Dona as he once did for Ella. That was the reason Dona tried very hard to please him and never did venture into politics like AF or her mother-in-law (Vicky) or grandmother-in-law (Augusta of Saxe-Weimar).
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 12, 2013, 08:30:50 PM
Once again---please stay on topic. We've had multiple off topic posts just since the last request. Empress Augusta Victoria has her own thread. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 12, 2013, 08:32:01 PM
Me too.

Interesting that Empress Eugenie likened Friedrich to Hamlet. I always think of Hamlet as dark, plus, describing someone as a Hamlet in Britain today is not a compliment. It has connotations of exaggeration and melodrama - a footballer rolling around on the ground after being tackled is 'playing Hamlet'.

Ann

But as we're frequently admonished, we shouldn't look at it by today's standards. Reading Eugenie's whole quote makes it apparent that she considered her remark to connotate a more romantic version of Hamlet--not the more modern, mopey Hamlet--as was prevelant in Victorian times. And Hamlet, being a Dane, would generally bring to mind a golden haired prince. (Would that Olivier have played it with his natural dark hair as that blonde 'do always took me out of the performance a bit. :)  )

Even if it had denonoted a certain melancholy, that isn't unrealistic either. Vicky herself remarked that Fritz was easily cast down and depressed. While he certain wasn't melancholy by nature, it wasn't unknown to him either.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2013, 08:35:06 PM
I am convinced that Eugenie meant it in a romanticize way of Hamlet than the mopey one.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 15, 2013, 02:18:36 PM
I am convinced that Eugenie meant it in a romanticize way of Hamlet than the mopey one.

What people are saying is that whatever may have convinced you to take the single comment and put the image forth that you did in the beginning is a dangerous way to make historical comments. As we have seen, the use of side and/or anecdotal comments may seriously misrepresent who and what a historic figure really was.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2013, 05:20:38 PM
This is more of what Empress Eugenie personally thought than a provable historical observation.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on December 17, 2013, 08:34:29 AM
Isn't that just what we've been saying to you for the last week - that the Empress was taking a romantic view of the young Friedrich, which or may not have owed much to reality?

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2013, 06:44:38 PM
Not really since even Vicky wrote that Fritz could be easily cast down or depressed. So Eugenie might have seen a side of him that was actually real.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 18, 2013, 09:06:40 PM
Eric, where and exactly what did Vicky say about "depression"? Did she really use that term? While she was a capable and educated person, her diagnosis of depression is suspect at best. Everyone points out others' blues or down-in-the-dumps periods which does not at all suggest a psychological problem.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 19, 2013, 10:39:38 AM
I was the one who first commented on Vicky and Fritz being depressed. She wrote of it in The Empress Frederick Writes to Sophie and, I believe, in one of the volumes of letters to her mother. It wasn't a clinical diagnosis (ie Fritz suffered from depression) but rather that he could be easily depressed or 'cast down' by events. This was something she saw in Sophie (and who wrote frequently of feeling depressed--her words) as well and she compared her to her father.  Vicky once wrote to Sophie "He was so sensitive, and felt so deeply the injustice of his fate." This sensitivity, she believed, caused him (and she saw the same in Sophie) to be worn down by smaller sadnesses & disappointments which left them vulnerable to the bigger disappointments and tragedies. She didn't think there was a psychological, chronic condition--just a facet of their personality. She, and other women in the family, speak often of 'being low', 'depressed' and having a period of depression.

Fritz had undoubtedly been marked by his upbringing--no wonder he responded so heartily to the much different atmosphere of Victoria & Albert's family life. "Papa always said he could not bear to think of his childhood, he had been so unhappy and miserable, and had many a time wished himself out of this world."

I don't think any of this should be taken as a criticism--Fritz was human and flawed like everyone. And Vicky, who adored him above all, certainly wouldn't write anything false or harsh towards him. In EFWTS she writes on the anniversary of his death:

"'It was such a comfort to receive your dear telegram this morning. I knew your thoughts would be here, where it hardly seems possible to me, even now, that two sad years have elapsed since that dread hour, that I have lost for ever what I held most dear on earth, that my children are deprived of the best father, and the country of the one man who would have been such a blessing to it . . . his hopes and aims were noble and pure and good . . . oh, that the love and peace he sought to spread would penetrate some
hearts and make them feel what wrong they have done. . . I try to be brave I assure you, and not to think of myself, but oh! the longing for one squeeze of dear Papa's big hand, for a kiss, for the sound of his voice or his step, is so heavy, it takes all courage out of me. To face life and struggle on without him seems too hard, too incomprehensible.' "

And later:  "Oh, how I miss darling Papa so cruelly, and in the morning on waking, his empty pillow, his silent and empty rooms, make me so wretched. It is no use to grieve and to mourn, but one cannot help it. How unfeeling I should be if I did not suffer this pain.' "

"I look round in vain for beloved Papa's dear face and fine tall figure, so broad and strong and handsome. The christenings of you all came so vividly before me, and I cannot believe that all the terrible things I have been through are reality and not a bad dream. . . . It is just on 33 years ago that I arrived here in Berlin, a young bride, very shy and uncomfortable, and yet it seems to me like yesterday.' "

She talks of his "dear noble face, so manly and calm". When Margaret married, and had things been different they would now be 'empty nesters' she writes "'The struggle I went through on the 25 th I shall never forget. I thought of my own wedding 3 5 years ago, and had a heart-sick longing for dear Papa, to be able to throw my arms around his
neck and say, now we are alone, in the house together once more, as we were when we were bride and bridegroom. But all was silence around me."

Frederick III is my favorite male royal and his romance with Vicky probably my favorite royal romance.
 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 25, 2013, 07:02:46 PM
Indeed. Fritz did not come from a happy household and was attracted by Vicky's strength and cleverness and never used it as a weapon against her (like Bismark). He was loved the fact that she came from a happy household and always popular in her family (even won over Princess Alexandra of Wales and her sister Dagmar). But trying to be a pleaser to his parents must have been hard and one could see why he might have moments of depression. Trying to reconcile Wilhelm I and Augusta of Saxe-Weimar (one of my most disliked figures in history) was a hopeless task.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: gillian on January 19, 2014, 06:15:41 AM
I'm curious about Fritz's relationships with his children. Vicky's parenting skills and problems with her children have been discussed quite a bit on here and in books but I don't know much about Fritz as a parent. From what I've been able to gather he was a good father but I haven't found much else on his specific relationships with each individual child. I know Vicky was much closer to her younger children and I wonder if it was a similar story with Fritz.

Victoria's Daughters has an interesting quote on his view on Wilhelm's handicap: "Though the boy's father never experienced insuperable trouble accepting the injury as something that couldn't be changed his mother was appalled that she had brought a far less than perfect future Prussian king into the world." (pg. 75) Not entirely convinced that's completely true. But I don't know how involved he was in attempting to fix Willy's arm or what he thought of the array of sometimes cruel/ludicrous treatments used to 'cure' the condition. Wilhelm seemed to respect and idolize his father when he was younger. However it seems that his relationships with his mother and paternal grandparents are seen as having more an influence on him. He didn't get along with either parent as an adult especially after Bismarck. And of course he raided his dead father's things in search of documents he could use against both parents. However he seems to have blamed his mother more (or entirely) for his miserable childhood based on some of his statements.

I can't find anything specific about Charlotte's relationship with her father. I think she was the favorite of Wilhelm I and Augusta though. She was arguably to most difficult of the whole bunch and seemed to have fallen out with a lot of her family members during her lifetime. I'm also curious if Fritz had any relationship with Charlotte's daughter Feodora? She was nine when he died, so she probably had some memory of him. Charlotte often left her daughter with Vicky for long periods of time but I'm not sure if this was common during Fritz's lifetime or after he died and Vicky had fewer responsibilities and more time to raise Charlotte's daughter.

Same thing with Henry.  However I think Henry was actually a lot like his father in terms of personality. He was friendly and easygoing and generally well liked. He did side with his grandparents and older brother politically at times which indicates some distance from both parents. He generally didn't meddle with politics or have much interest in them otherwise, his mother would later complain that neither he nor his wife read a newspaper. I think he was much closer to his mother after marrying Irene of Hesse but since that happened literally right before Fritz died I can't see it as having much impact on their relationship.

As for poor Sigismund and Waldemar both parents were described as being devastated by their early deaths. Fritz was away when Sigismund died and chose not to leave his post with the army to attend his funeral even though Wilhelm I had granted him permission to do so. I'm pretty sure this was more an indication of Fritz's strong sense of duty as opposed to his real feelings about Sigi's death. I read somewhere that he felt guilty because so many doctors had come with the Prussian army, leaving nobody available to take care of Sigismund. Waldemar's wikipedia article states he was the favorite of both parents. Which would make sense especially if Fritz was also closer to his younger children.

Viktoria, Sophie, and Margaret shared their parents political views and were closest to their father towards the end of his life. Fritz also supported (though it's implied Vicky pressured him somewhat) Viktoria's possible engagement to Alexander of Battenberg, despite the opposition from just about everyone else in his family. After Fritz died Vicky wrote of these three: "I have my three sweet girls - he loved so much - that are my consolation." All of the girls were still quite young when he died and I wonder what he would've thought of their marriages or some of the problems they had with their brother. i.e. Sophie's conversion to the Orthodox faith.

I guess I've sort of answered my own question here but is there anything anyone else can add?


Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 22, 2014, 06:53:33 PM
Nice summary, Gillian. I think unlike most German households, particularly amongst the nobility, Vicky took a more dominant role, compared to Fritz, in raising their children. As a result, I suspect Wilhelm and his siblings tended to view their father from a distance and with greater admiration. He really seemed to be the quintessential Mr. Nice Guy and children react to that well.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: DNAgenie on January 22, 2014, 08:02:31 PM
There is an interesting comment in a letter from Victoria to her mother on 6 May 1865: "I think it is so wise of you to let the boys travel as much as possible; they learn so much; it forms their character and makes them independent. I hope we shall be allowed to send our Willy all over the world but we are in a difficult position as Fritz's parents interfere so much in all we do with the children.  The King dislikes all innovations, as most people about Court here do and think that where the children are born there they are to grow up and never go away for fear of their becoming estranged from their country.  It is such a mistake; the more they move about the happier they are to return, and then value their home all the more.  The more they see and learn, the better it fits them for their future position. This is the place of "tradition"; that word is an all powerful argument; what never has been done - never is to be done, and all people who think differently are unpatriotic. This is the opinion."

Another interesting and relevant comment in a letter of 31 May 1865 from Victoria to Queen Vic: "Tomorrow dear Willy goes; he is so sorry - he keeps saying, "I don't want to go away from you, Mama."  He had some vague fear of there being no soldiers in the place he is going to and that is a grief to his little mind. Dear child, he is so precious to me and I grudge giving him up so completely to the rule and care of people who, however good and trustworthy and excellent, are not intelligent enough to be the right companions to him. You are quite right in saying that we are fortunate in having an intelligent "eldest" child. I feel it to be a blessing of providence and am grateful for it."
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 22, 2014, 09:02:16 PM
Very interesting indeed. What's most interesting is how Fritz emerged as a young man with ideals and beliefs more in line with Vicky than his parents. He was not raised in the style of QV's household, yet he apparently on his own and in spite of his surroundings became a more worldly and open-minded adult.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 22, 2014, 09:08:52 PM
Empress Augusta was actually regarded as pretty liberal and I think Wilhelm, for whatever reason, went along with that style of upbringing. Victoria & Albert were very friendly with Augusta--I think she became more conservative as she aged and colder as life in Berlin and her loveless marriage took its toll. But as a younger woman, V&A regarded her as more in line with their way of thinking than Bismarckian.

As for Fritz--some of his writings regarding Waldemar and Sigismund and their loss closely resemble Vicky's. Grieving the loss not just of these splendid sons but of their potential and their idealized memories.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Превед on January 22, 2014, 09:28:04 PM
Empress Augusta was not just from liberal, artistic Weimar, but was also pro-Catholic, something which raised some eyebrows in Berlin. Her happiest time was when she and Wilhelm resided in Koblenz, in the Catholic Rhineland. A contrast to Bismarck's wife Johanna von Puttkamer, who was a fervently Pietistic Protestant from Farther Pomerania. (Interestingly the Puttkamers might be of Slavic origin: Puttkamer > putcumer / pod-komer = under-chamberlain).

BTW her French reader Jules Laforgue was a poet who introduced the clitoris as a literary topos. (Probably unbeknownst to Her Majesty!)
... Et votre clitoris qui vous tordrait pâmée
En de longs spasmes de langueur....

Risqué, bien sûr
, but it's so nice to write a post that combines onomastic etymology with genital poetry! After all, the Romanovs (Augusta's maternal family) claimed Prussia (the region, not the kingdom) as their legendary womb and doesn't Pomerania and Prussia meet in the Hel Peninsula / Putziger Nehrung, something of a Baltic clitoris!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 22, 2014, 10:09:50 PM
It is strange that William I and Augusta would have raised their two children in more liberal fashion/ideals, then convert to disallowing and/or interfering with such direction for their grandchildren. I wonder if Fritz and Vicky were just not very good at following through with their principles (as Augusta was before them?) in face of pressure to allow other agendas to take control? Vicky was a very young mother in a very different environment, both of which could have made her less "pushy" than she may have wanted to be.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 22, 2014, 10:16:45 PM

BTW her French reader Jules Laforgue was a poet who introduced the clitoris as a literary topos. (Probably unbeknownst to Her Majesty!)
... Et votre clitoris qui vous tordrait pâmée
En de longs spasmes de langueur....


Augusta would have clutched her pearls and fainted, in spite of her liberal persuasions. :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: DNAgenie on January 22, 2014, 10:58:27 PM
HerrKaiser wrote:
Quote
It is strange that William I and Augusta would have raised their two children in more liberal fashion/ideals, then convert to disallowing and/or interfering with such direction for their grandchildren.

The difference was that when William and Augusta brought up Frederick and Louise they were just the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Prussia, with no power in the Prussian scheme of things. William knew he would be King one day, but that is a long way from actually being the King of Prussia. When he became King, his attitude changed markedly. After that, in his eyes, anyone who disagreed with his (the King's) opinions was guilty of treason. His attitude to his son Frederick changed most dramatically at that point and Frederick found it very difficult to deal with.  Before his father became king, Frederick had been quite strongly influenced by his mother's more liberal ideals, but when his father succeeded to the throne of Prussia in 1861 Frederick was faced with an entirely different parental attitude.  Victoria faced similar difficulties, of course. When she married Fredrick in 1858 she had known William and Augusta as pleasant and reasonably amenable in-laws, but after William became William I of Prussia in 1861 everything changed.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 23, 2014, 04:57:04 AM
Msge 593
Where was Wilhelm going? In 1865 he was only six - interesting that he was already enamoured of soldiers.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Превед on January 23, 2014, 07:40:06 AM
Msge 593
Where was Wilhelm going? In 1865 he was only six

Hinzpeter became his tutor in 1866. Didn't he (and his mother?) go for spa treatments on the East Frisian Islands in his childhood?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 23, 2014, 08:48:02 AM
Msge 593
Where was Wilhelm going? In 1865 he was only six - interesting that he was already enamoured of soldiers.

Ann

Boys of that age, even younger, are fully enamored by soldiers, firemen, policemen, Superman and other male images of strength and prowess. In Wilhelm's case, he was surrounded by uniformed men and talk of war, battles, and things military. I suspect it was fairly easy for him to adopt a fascination with such.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 23, 2014, 10:20:59 AM
Herr Kaiser

Thanks for that. I can't remember my brother being enamoured of soldiers at that age, but he was certainly mad about cars and cowboys!

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2014, 10:46:00 AM
Willy was a very complicated character to understand. He loved his mother, but he was also angry with her for demanding so much from him (he also secretly blamed her for his stiff arm and English Doctors). He allowed himself to be seduced by Bismark (too late when the old man found out he helped to create a monster) and the like based on the past military grandeur of the Prussian Royal House. He loved Ella, but rather than being turned down by her (she did not encourage his efforts to court her in any fashion and made it clear to him that she wasn't interested), he reached out for the lowest hanging fruit in Dona. The plain and awkward girl with a possible unequal background. She did his bidding even though there are times Willy did not appreciate it (her later rudeness to Vicky was not appreciated by Willy when he sought to please his mother). He got blamed for WWI even though Franz Joesf of Austria, The Serbs and Tsar Nicholas II was equally to blame for starting it.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 23, 2014, 11:02:24 AM
Willy was a very complicated character to understand. He loved his mother, but he was also angry with her for demanding so much from him (he also secretly blamed her for his stiff arm and English Doctors). He allowed himself to be seduced by Bismark (too late when the old man found out he helped to create a monster) and the like based on the past military grandeur of the Prussian Royal House. He loved Ella, but rather than being turned down by her (she did not encourage his efforts to court her in any fashion and made it clear to him that she wasn't interested), he reached out for the lowest hanging fruit in Dona. The plain and awkward girl with a possible unequal background. She did his bidding even though there are times Willy did not appreciate it (her later rudeness to Vicky was not appreciated by Willy when he sought to please his mother). He got blamed for WWI even though Franz Joesf of Austria, The Serbs and Tsar Nicholas II was equally to blame for starting it.

There you go again, disrespecting Empress Augusta. She was clearly not the 'lowest hanging fruit'; far from it. While she may have been "plain" in her youth few among the royal houses weren't plain by today's standards. But she did emerge as queen and empress into a grand and impressive appearing woman of high rank, equal or more so to any of her noble peers.

Wilhelm was not an "old man" when he rejected Bismarck.

Yes, Wilhelm got blamed for WWI, but in addition to Austria, Serbia, and Russia, Great Britain and France shoulder equal blame for the catastrophe that left all of European/western culture in a shambles from which a complete recovery has yet to be realized. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 23, 2014, 11:17:08 AM
Both John Rohl's book on Wilhelm (vol 1 especially) and the recent book Imperial Requiem (which has Dona as one of its focuses) sheds a lot of light on the up & down, complicated relationship between Wilhelm & Dona. Wilhelm was more passionate about her in the beginning (despite the stories of his early Ella infatuation) but he would blow hot & cold (alternately disregarding and then clinging to her) throughout the relationship. She was never treated by him as an equal in the way of Fritz and Vicky but he depending on her for emotional equilibrium and stability more than previously realized.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 23, 2014, 12:31:41 PM
It's astounding to me how a man, John Rohl, could spend most of his life researching and writing about a person he loathed and makes no apologies about his deep-seated dislike for Wilhelm II. In spite of his credentials as a historian, I find it implausible that his biography is untainted with his negative bias. It's unfortunate that such a pivotal figure in 20th century history as WII was remains largely cast in the shadows of the great war and the post period Anglo American spin on history.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2014, 01:24:55 PM
Dona was a "low hanging fruit" in the royal marriage stakes. Even after the announcement, the Prussian court still have to investigate if her family was "untainted" enough to marry the heir to the throne (Remember Wilhelm I had to give up Princess Elise Radziwill for that even though her mother was in fact a Princess of the House of Hohenzollern). Not to mention the surprise of QV who though Willy would pick the prettier Calma (Caroline Mathilda, younger sister of Dona) than the pain Dona. Dona of course was not ugly, but hardly comparable to Ella in looks, there is no disrespect in that but a hard cold fact. Vicky was rooting for Dona & Calma for Willy, but when Dona married Willy, The younger woman's disrespect and rudeness to Vicky made many readers dislike the "dowdy woman with impossible hats". Willy himself even asked Louise of Coburg (Belgium) to select's Dona's hats & clothes, that is how much he respects her.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 23, 2014, 05:02:42 PM
It's astounding to me how a man, John Rohl, could spend most of his life researching and writing about a person he loathed and makes no apologies about his deep-seated dislike for Wilhelm II. In spite of his credentials as a historian, I find it implausible that his biography is untainted with his negative bias. It's unfortunate that such a pivotal figure in 20th century history as WII was remains largely cast in the shadows of the great war and the post period Anglo American spin on history.

It seems his deep-seated dislike is the consequence of the years of study - he's said as much in things he's written. I don't think he's the only biographer that's happened too; I can think of several examples of people who'e discovered they didn't really like their subjects (think of Nicolson and George V). I can also find that I am able to start studying someone with a neutral attitude or an inclination to be sympathetic, and found my feelings turn strongly to dislike when I know more.

Rohl is Anglo-German, so I don't think I'd characterise his approach as being in some way "Anglo-American". After all, the harshest critic of Germany's war aims was Fritz Fischer. Christopher Clark, who is selling far more books than Rohl at present, is notably more sympathetic to Wilhelm. In that sense, I don't think anyone who disagrees with Rohl has any reason to feel that Wilhelm is "overshadowed" by negative spin.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 23, 2014, 08:57:45 PM
It's astounding to me how a man, John Rohl, could spend most of his life researching and writing about a person he loathed and makes no apologies about his deep-seated dislike for Wilhelm II. In spite of his credentials as a historian, I find it implausible that his biography is untainted with his negative bias. It's unfortunate that such a pivotal figure in 20th century history as WII was remains largely cast in the shadows of the great war and the post period Anglo American spin on history.

It seems his deep-seated dislike is the consequence of the years of study - he's said as much in things he's written. I don't think he's the only biographer that's happened too; I can think of several examples of people who'e discovered they didn't really like their subjects (think of Nicolson and George V). I can also find that I am able to start studying someone with a neutral attitude or an inclination to be sympathetic, and found my feelings turn strongly to dislike when I know more.

Rohl is Anglo-German, so I don't think I'd characterise his approach as being in some way "Anglo-American". After all, the harshest critic of Germany's war aims was Fritz Fischer. Christopher Clark, who is selling far more books than Rohl at present, is notably more sympathetic to Wilhelm. In that sense, I don't think anyone who disagrees with Rohl has any reason to feel that Wilhelm is "overshadowed" by negative spin.

What I meant by the "Anglo American spin on history" was the well-seated so-called victors view of the period up to 1918. I've found many of his commentaries to be transparently biased in ways similar to Massey's (particularly in Dreadnought).

Even the tone of Rohl's works on WII progress in angst and anger as one plods through the lengthy study. I agree with you that Rohl may have grown in his dislike, but that's his own emotion, not necessarily historical. And when we see this emotion skew his thinking, it suggests to me that he may well be putting forth false impressions.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 24, 2014, 12:24:05 AM
Philip Ziegler is another biographer who came to have very mixed feelings about his subject, to say the least. In his biography of Mountbatten he says he felt obliged to put a notice on his desk, saying 'Remember, he was a great man.'

I wonder what he came to think about the Duke of Windsor?

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 24, 2014, 09:24:42 AM
Philip Ziegler is another biographer who came to have very mixed feelings about his subject, to say the least. In his biography of Mountbatten he says he felt obliged to put a notice on his desk, saying 'Remember, he was a great man.'

I wonder what he came to think about the Duke of Windsor?

Ann

That would be a nice fireside chat! Ziegler is still alive so he could provide background.

The extent to which a historian or historical biographer goes down the path of "mixed feelings" about their subject is my concern. When that path turns their dissertations into an emotional perspective, it becomes a commercial piece and of questionable verisimilitude.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 24, 2014, 12:03:47 PM
I think a biographer needs to maintain objectivity, and tell the subject's story wie es wirklich war. There I are a Scylla and Charybdis of getting too fond of your subject on the one hand, and coming to hate them on the other. There are particular problems when the subject is still alive.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2014, 01:06:35 PM
One must also remember that Willy wasn't a favorite in the Press in England after the Kruger telegram. When you built up a great military strength, it can also be a forestall of war. King Edward VII hoped to circle Germany by diplomatic strategic alliances and force it to think twice before using that arsenal.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 24, 2014, 03:39:08 PM
One must also remember that Willy wasn't a favorite in the Press in England after the Kruger telegram. When you built up a great military strength, it can also be a forestall of war. King Edward VII hoped to circle Germany by diplomatic strategic alliances and force it to think twice before using that arsenal.

The arms race was a "race" because all great powers were in the running, not just Germany. In fact, from 1905-1914 GB built 38 dreadnoughts and dreadnought cruisers to only 24 build by Germany. While Germany had a larger army in manpower, its personnel as a percent of population was about the same as GB during the same pre war period.

None of the great powers before 1914 can claim the moral high ground of not participating in the same high stakes game of growing its military strength.

Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Превед on January 24, 2014, 04:21:46 PM
One must also remember that Willy wasn't a favorite in the Press in England after the Kruger telegram. When you built up a great military strength, it can also be a forestall of war. King Edward VII hoped to circle Germany by diplomatic strategic alliances and force it to think twice before using that arsenal.

Pray tell, what does the contemporary (jingoist) British press's view of WII have anything to do with an interesting discussion of his biographers' views? I hope no biographers base their views of him on what the Daily Telegraph thought of him. (His own views, as expressed in that paper, is interesting, though, bust mostly because of how they embarrassed his position in Germany.) What Max Harden wrote about him in Die Zukunft and what the Social-Democratic press wrote is much more interesting.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2014, 07:25:01 PM
I think Willy's high handed ways in dealing with the arms race did make countries uneasy. Although it would not be only Germany who takes all the blame in this. Edward VII's strategy of "containment" does have its flaws. It was merciful that Vicky died before the day of war between her country and that of her adoption. She would have truly been broken-hearted.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Превед on January 24, 2014, 08:02:58 PM
I think Willy's high handed ways in dealing with the arms race did make countries uneasy.
Including his own.
In many ways, Eric, you seem to equate the German Empire with WII in your mind in the same way that WII equated Britain with his mother. Misleading simplifications.


Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 24, 2014, 08:12:52 PM
I think Willy's high handed ways in dealing with the arms race did make countries uneasy. 

Including his own.

And, the high handed manners in which Russia to the east, France to the west, and England all over the seas dealt with the arms race made Germany uneasy.

Anyone read Niall Ferguson's "The Pity of War". A must read, in my opinion, to have a clearer, post 20th century view of WWI.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2014, 09:47:10 PM
I am strictly talking about WWI and not about WWII. I don't think you can equate Willy's gaffes with Hitler's intended and calculated jabs. There is no comparison here.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 25, 2014, 12:36:35 PM


The extent to which a historian or historical biographer goes down the path of "mixed feelings" about their subject is my concern. When that path turns their dissertations into an emotional perspective, it becomes a commercial piece and of questionable verisimilitude.

While I agree with you in principle, it's very hard to measure the point at which an "emotional" perspective takes over - fundamentally, this is entirely subjective and often depends on the extent to which one agrees with the writer. One person's overly-negative biography is another one's incisive picture. One person's "objective" book is another's dull and boring ramble. Surely some characters in history deserve the anger of posterity, and it would be a poor book which said, "Well, he was a mass murderer, but he liked his dog, so let's be balanced and give him his due"! Extreme example, but you get what I mean....

For me, what makes a good biography is the inclusion of context, thoughtful analysis and sufficient evidence to make a judgement. What I can't bear are books which just rehash their subject's narrow experience of the world - Noble Frankland's book about Arthur Duke of Connaught was like for me - it seems he essentially paraphrased lots of letters to lay out a pretty uninteresting world through his subject's eyes. No analysis or insight or anything. There are other examples; lots of them royal bios.

I like Rohl because he writes with wit and verve and is accessible, yet has an encyclopedic knowledge. I don't have to agree with everything he says, and indeed the evidence he presents allow me on occasion to see problems with his own arguments. But at least the evidence is there. Another thing I hate is one-sided books - which are an extension of what I mention above about the narrowness of some "royal" bios.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 25, 2014, 01:21:34 PM
I think Virginia Rounding's "Alix and Nicky" is a very interesting and balanced book, with some small errors of fact, but it is empathetic without being over-involved in the emotional lives of its subjects. Also covers some things which their other biographies don't - the detail of their religious preoccupations, for one thing. Yet one of my friends told me they found it far too sympathetic to the pair; while another one hates it for being harsh!
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 25, 2014, 03:04:28 PM
Thanks JA, very interesting insights/commentary. It seems history and biographical works are more of an art than a science and hence the subjectivity of the authors are, rightfully, part of the process and outcome. While I also agree that "some characters in history deserve the anger of posterity", it's interesting how even this can or does or should change over time. In the case of Nickolas and Alexandra, their memory has been skewed positively and glamorized by Hollywood and sympathetic biographies all of which has cast them in a very different light than those of 1915, for example. It's interesting to me, about them specifically, how much different their story/history would be today if they were an unattractive, unloving couple with frumpy, mean children. Theirs is a story for commercialism amongst the romantic masses, and Wilhelm certainly has not had the same advantage as history has crafted/established his persona.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 25, 2014, 07:36:58 PM
I also didn't get the impression that Rohl disliked Wilhelm. I didn't notice any of that in the books. He was pretty sympathetic towards him on issues and critical on others. I don't  care for a fawning book anymore than a negative one or a gossipy one. I think his books are the best out there on Wilhelm. They place his actions (good and bad) in political, social, familial and emotional context and backs things up with direct sourcing. I also enjoy the wider view he takes in giving insights into Vicky, Fritz, Queen Victoria and other players (major and minor) in the narrative.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 25, 2014, 07:40:18 PM
But let's now return to the topic of the thread. Any further discussion of Wilhelm solely should be on his thread. :)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 26, 2014, 03:47:34 AM
Could we start a discussion on biography somewhere else? There are lots of interesting points coming up which are not specific to Wilhelm.

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 26, 2014, 10:36:19 AM
I think Rohl was very balance with Willy and his family. I love the first book played on his relationship with Fritz & Vicky.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 27, 2014, 08:32:20 AM
One last comment before this chat closes down and/or moves to another location.

Of course, Roehl is commended on his years of effort going through all the archives and available material in order to produce his volumes of biographical insights on WII. But while his efforts earn him an A+, his analysis pales in comparison, and it's the analysis that is key. Over and over in his dialogue, he presents quotes and situations then makes deductions that, to me, could have been absolutely the opposite, all without solid reasoning why he chose the roads he went down. I think his largest works on WII clearly show that he set out to prove WII was a disruptive threat to peace from the time he was crown prince. When an author begins his work to prove a point, rather than attempting to re-look and re-evaluate the subject, it is almost impossible to be fair and balanced.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 27, 2014, 08:42:23 AM
To be fair. I don't see there is another point in WII as a person. While the blame on WWI can be shared, WII role in bringing it forward cannot be diluted in any way balanced or not. It is like saying Hilter is a nice person because he is good to his dog. Individual aspects did not play that much into the character of a certain person in this case WII. I would disagree and argue that John Rohl did a balance and fair portrait of WII. His instability of moods and contradicting actions left his relatives in the UK baffled, while his cruelty and unbending towards his family (especially mother & sisters) did not leave a good legacy to his character. 
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 27, 2014, 10:29:05 AM
I think we should bear in mind that having Vicky for a mother was very difficult for Wilhelm, since she set him standards which were quite impossible to achieve and never gave him credit for anything he did. Rohl quotes one rather sad episode when Wilhelm, aged about 19, sent his mother a photograph (inevitably showing him in uniform) and got a lengthy reply exhorting him to clean his teeth better. She was nothing like as demanding with the three younger girls, and they, inevitably, got on better with her.

It is a recognised phenomenon that parents tend to apply strict standards to first-borns, who bear the weight of expectations and ambitions, as well as rules. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries we can also see this with heirs apparent - look at the way Victoria and Albert treated the future Edward VII!

Ann
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 27, 2014, 01:44:48 PM
I think we should bear in mind that having Vicky for a mother was very difficult for Wilhelm, since she set him standards which were quite impossible to achieve and never gave him credit for anything he did. Rohl quotes one rather sad episode when Wilhelm, aged about 19, sent his mother a photograph (inevitably showing him in uniform) and got a lengthy reply exhorting him to clean his teeth better. She was nothing like as demanding with the three younger girls, and they, inevitably, got on better with her.

It is a recognised phenomenon that parents tend to apply strict standards to first-borns, who bear the weight of expectations and ambitions, as well as rules. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries we can also see this with heirs apparent - look at the way Victoria and Albert treated the future Edward VII!

Ann

While it would take further and deep psycho analysis, Vicky may well have resented that her first born was a boy who automatically inherited the wealth and power. She was first born but had no such position yet had to have seen how much more capable she was than her brother. Wilhelm was the second time in her life that she got trumped by a less inspiring youngster.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 27, 2014, 01:54:13 PM
To be fair. I don't see there is another point in WII as a person. While the blame on WWI can be shared, WII role in bringing it forward cannot be diluted in any way balanced or not. It is like saying Hilter is a nice person because he is good to his dog. Individual aspects did not play that much into the character of a certain person in this case WII. I would disagree and argue that John Rohl did a balance and fair portrait of WII. His instability of moods and contradicting actions left his relatives in the UK baffled, while his cruelty and unbending towards his family (especially mother & sisters) did not leave a good legacy to his character. 

Precisely plays into my point. You think it's "fair" to take Rohl's opinions, in spite of the emotion that his commentaries are diluted with, at face value. I find that as unfair as well as unreliable.

To suggest that a less negative view of WII is analogous to an apology for Hitler because of Hitler's dog is exemplary of how emotionality distorts reason. Did Herr Rohl make the same comparative?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 27, 2014, 03:48:09 PM
I don't think Vicky resented that Willy's status as first born. She had high hopes for him and Willy did love her despite her high standards for him. Vicky's brother Bertie did have the same expectation, but he did not turn into a egomaniac like Willy. QV was not always fair to her heir, but his wife Alix was always the bridge that drew them together. Willy on the other hand was pumped up by Bismark and Wilhelm I without any consideration or understanding for his parents. "I bide my time" was his motto. While Alix of Denmark was a comfort to her mother-in-law, Dona wasn't. I don't think even John Rohl can find any info to dispute the negative picture that history had put on WII. But it was a fair one as far as his personality and his role in the Great War is concerned, but I agree he wasn't the "only" guilty party here and much of the blame can be shared by Russia (Pan-Slav Movement) and Austria & France. A seriously lack of goodwill from Germany was part of the problem as Vicky wrote much about this subject in her letters to her mother. No John Rohl did not indicate that but I did, it is my trouble with "revisionist" history been written.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 30, 2014, 10:00:47 AM
There is a new photobook of Vicky in German:

Kaiserin Victoria - Die vergessene Deutsche Kaiserin
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 04, 2014, 01:17:28 AM
Book cover ?
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on August 30, 2014, 12:06:36 PM
(http://www.kaiserin-victoria.eu/images/00-Buchumschlag2014.jpg)
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 01, 2014, 05:43:00 AM
Thanks. Hope this one does justice to this great woman.
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: Joanna on October 28, 2016, 10:28:52 AM
Empress Frederick to her daughter Sophie

Unwanted Guests (creepy-crawlies) Part 2

http://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.ca/2016/10/unwanted-guests-creepy-crawlies-part-2.html

Joanna
Title: Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 22, 2016, 09:08:40 AM
This recent photo of the Windsors at Buckingham Palace shows what appears to be portraits of Fritz and Vickie on either sides of the doorway behind the royal family. What a surprise! I thought the palace had cleansed all German royal portraits back in 1917.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/189946.jpg)