Alexander Palace Forum
Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Penny_Wilson on March 07, 2005, 12:46:24 AM
-
In response to a post from Annie on one of these threads a few days ago, I said I would draw up a list of people who testified that Anna Anderson/Fraulein Unbekannt was entirely and fluently conversant in Russia. I am still compiling a general list of those people, but in the meantime, here is a shorter list. Just three people. All of them came out in opposition to Anna Anderson, yet all of them testified that she spoke and understood Russian:
Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna
Princess Nina Georgievna of Russia
Pierre Gilliard
So there you go, Annie -- and I went you one better by giving you three people who didn't recognize AA as AN, yet testified that she understood and spoke Russian. So is your contention now that Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard are liars, or is it your contention that they were somehow mistaken? And if either of these, what does that say about
their veracity regarding their claims about the case in general?
-
It is true that AA understood russian but rarely spoke it because it was the language of her torturers. But I wonder why Pierre Gilliard changed his opinion. Somebody asked it him? It is hard to believe that but there are so much things hard to believe in this world... :(
-
Where did you get this info, it runs contrary to their personal testimonies. There is nothing written or recorded of her speaking it, why? Why is her refusal to speak Russian so famous, why was it used by her naysayers to attack her case?
But again, it doesn't matter whether Franziska Schanskowska spoke what language or not, she still wasn't Anastasia.
-
But again, it doesn't matter whether Franziska Schanskowska spoke what language or not, she still wasn't Anastasia.
That is to say, Annie, IF AA was FS. All we know is that she was related through the maternal line to KM. It does seem likely, but this thread is for AA and the Russian language.
Also, I have heard that AA would be spoken to in Russian yet answer in another language--proof that she understood the language.
-
Also, I have heard that AA would be spoken to in Russian yet answer in another language--proof that she understood the language.
It is always a lot easier to understand a language than to speak it. For example, for myself, I can understand Spanish fairly well, but I can't really speak it other than uttering a few words. I can also understand Russian very well, but sometimes find it difficult to speak. You can often make out the context of what is being said if you understand about half the words, but speaking it is a whole different ball game! ;)
-
That is to say, Annie, IF AA was FS. All we know is that she was related through the maternal line to KM. It does seem likely, but this thread is for AA and the Russian language.
Well, that's a lot, especially in conjuction with the photographic evidence. But even if she wasn't FS, she still wasn't Anastasia.
Also, I have heard that AA would be spoken to in Russian yet answer in another language--proof that she understood the language.
That's not much for what was supposed to have been someone's native language. What, no common use, no writings, no diaries in Russian? It doesn't sound like she was very comfortable with it. Even if she had been away from it for, what, a whole year and a half, it's not likely she would stop using it. Remember Alexandra continued to speak and correspond in English after being in Russia for 20 years!
-
Where did you get this info, it runs contrary to their personal testimonies. There is nothing written or recorded of her speaking it, why? Why is her refusal to speak Russian so famous, why was it used by her naysayers to attack her case?
I got this information from the trial transcripts. As for your other questions, I would imagine the answers are now self-evident.
Olga Alexandrovna:
Questioned by Judge Backen in Toronto, June 11, 1959
Backen: While you were with the plaintiff, in what language did you converse?
OA: German.
Backen: Did you ask if she spoke Russian?
OA: Of course, but she apparently did not wish to do so. Backen: Did she not speak Russian at all during your interview?
OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard, but would say no more.
Backen: And was her Russian grammatical?
OA: Yes.
Backen: She said no more in Russian other than a few sentences to Madame Gilliard?
OA: No. She understood the language, as she answered questions posed to her in Russian in German but, despite my requests, she would not converse with any of us in Russian.
Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 38
Gilliard:
Questioned by Judge Werkmeister of the Hamburg Tribunal, 1 April, 1958
Werkmeister: During your meetings with the Plantiff, what languages were used?
Gilliard: German.
Werkmeister: Only German?
Gilliard: Well, some English.
Werkmeister: And nothing more?
Gilliard. No, it's as I wrote in my book [Gilliard had brought with him a copy of his "La Fausse Anastasie"].
Werkmeister: Again, Monsieur Gilliard, the material in your book is not evidence.
Gilliard: But it's what happened.
Werkmeister: And what of the information presented by Dr. Vermehren [Accounts of the meetings, including letters from Danish Ambassador Herluf Zahle that declared AA had spoken in English and in Russian] on this issue?
Gilliard: I don't recall.
Werkmeister: Please try to recall, Monsieur. Is the evidence presented by Dr. Vermehren on the issue of languages spoken accurate or inaccurate?
Gilliard: She might have replied to my wife in Russian.
Werkmeister: To your wife?
Gilliard: Yes. During a conversation with the Grand Duchess [Olga Alexandrovna] the claimant interrupted and said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In Russian?
Gilliard: It has been so long ago...
Werkmeister: Did the Plaintiff say something to your wife in Russian or not, Monsieur?
Gilliard: A sentence perhaps.
Werkmeister: You understand, Monsieur, that the claim has been made that the Plaintiff could not speak Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: And is this claim accurate or not?
Gilliard: As I wrote in my book....
Werkmeister: Monsieur, I remind you again, your book is not evidence in this case.
Gilliard: She said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In what language?
Gilliard: In Russian.
Werkmeister: You heard the Plaintiff speak to your wife in Russian?
Gilliard: Only a sentence.
Werkmeister: But you heard this?
Gilliard: Yes. But she would not again speak it.
Werkmeister: You have previously stated, Monsieur, that the Plaintiff did not speak or understand Russian. Do you wish to amend your previous statement?
Gilliard: No.
Werkmeister: Monsieur, may I remind you that you are under oath? I again ask if you wish to correct your previous statement?
Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife. I do not consider that linguistic ability.
Werkmeister: We are not going to argue semantics, Monsieur. I believe that portions of the conversation in question took place in Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: And the Plaintiff did not engage in this conversation?
Gilliard: She would answer certain questions posed her, but only in German.
Werkmeister: Were these questions posed in Russian, or in German?
Gilliard: Both languages.
Werkmeister: Did the Plaintiff answer questions posed her in Russian in German?
Gilliard: That is so.
Werkmeister: And you say she answered these questions?
Gilliard: Only in German.
Werkmeister: But they were posed her in Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: So she understand Russian?
Gilliard: She would not speak it.
Werkmeister: That is not the question, Monsieur, and you have already conceded that she spoke it with your wife. Now, did she understand the Russian language?
Gilliard: Yes.
Source:
Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 27.
Princess Nina Georgievna:
"Whoever she is, she is no Polish peasant. She is a lady of good society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."
Source: Princess Nina to Peter Kurth, as quoted in Kurth, 217.
But again, it doesn't matter whether Franziska Schanskowska spoke what language or not, she still wasn't Anastasia.
Moving the goal-posts, Annie? You keep repeating that Fraulein Unbekannt/Anna Anderson could not speak or understand Russian -- which would be an item held in common with Franziska Schanzkowska, and therefore a "point" for your "side." I have now shown this assertion not to be true, and the truth came from people who denied the claim.
You really shouldn't make these continued incorrect assertions about AA when you haven't even done the basic work of reading through the Hamburg transcripts -- which are able to disprove so much of what you contend.
-
Well, that's a lot, especially in conjuction with the photographic evidence. But even if she wasn't FS, she still wasn't Anastasia.
That's not the issue with me, Annie, and you know it. I have said several times that I accept the DNA results as they stand today; my contention here is that Anna Anderson was absolutely NOT Franziska Schanzkowska. Stop muddying the waters.
That's not much for what was supposed to have been someone's native language. What, no common use, no writings, no diaries in Russian? It doesn't sound like she was very comfortable with it. Even if she had been away from it for, what, a whole year and a half, it's not likely she would stop using it. Remember Alexandra continued to speak and correspond in English after being in Russia for 20 years!
Oh BS, Annie! I'm assuming that English is your only language, or you would know that there are many other possibilities at play here. I myself spoke Welsh as a child, both at home and at school. It was my "native" language. But from the age of sixteen, I lived here in California, and so English has been my language for the last twenty years -- I make notes to myself in English, keep a day-planner in English, speak to my family in English (unless we don't want my dad to follow the conversation! :) ). Just because someone was raised in a language does NOT mean that they are locked into it forever -- especially if they are immersed in another language.
And coming at this from another angle -- why no diaries, letters, notes, or other personal writings in Polish or Katchoubian? That is, if she were Franziska Schanzkowska?
-
ANNIE & PENNY
Ladies,
I feel certain that neither of you is overtly aware of this, but I have noticed more and more personal 'sniping" comments and remarks recently...
I, of course, am not the FA, so my requests may have little influence - but I should just want to remind EVERYONE here to please try not to take any contrary commentary personally.
As I have done this all too often in the past --and suffered for it-- I hope to encourage others to avoid it in the future!
Here ended my sermon 8) ;D 8)
rskkiya
Please don't chastize me for arguing an issue with Annie. As you say, it's not your job. And in any case, I have not been hostile or "attacking" of Annie; I am merely questioning her conclusions and the ground they are based on. Annie is not too fragile to be questioned, I hope?
-
AA does not look at all as FS--she could not have been a FS based on many facts--her educatoin, for one; Her scars and the knowledge of details plus handwriting tells the story she could not be just another claimant; But she does not look to me as Anastasia either--she is different--did someone notice that her eyebrows shape is more arched than Anastasia's? I thought that that shape does not change through life; I just feel she is not Anastasia--but then who is she? A mystery case; Based not on appearance but on handwriting and details, same height, same scars I would say she is a clone:)))
-
Annie is not too fragile to be questioned, I hope?
No, but you have to admit the thread was aimed directly at me, even mentioning my name. You could have at least made it not look obvious!
I still don't think AA was all that known for her Russian skills enough to be Russian. My son picked up enough Russian from a CD-rom in 2 weeks so understand questions of a Russian exchange student at school, though as Helen says about her Spanish, he doesn't speak or write it. Same could be for her.
But whatever she spoke and how she learned it, she still wasn't Anastasia, if that's what you're pushing this for.
-
No, but you have to admit the thread was aimed directly at me, even mentioning my name. You could have at least made it not look obvious!
I'm glad it was obvious that my post was directed to you; it was made in response to your continual assertion that Anna Anderson did not speak Russian.
I still don't think AA was all that known for her Russian skills enough to be Russian...
Of course you don't. You never will. Your mind is quite closed. But I think I have shown that AA spoke Russian wel enough for a native-speaking Russian Grand Duchess to deem her "grammatical." Do you want to drop this issue now?
But whatever she spoke and how she learned it, she still wasn't Anastasia, if that's what you're pushing this for.
"Whatever she spoke and how she learned it..." tells me that you have conceded the point.
And YET AGAIN, Annie -- PLEASE READ THIS AND RETAIN IT IN YOUR BRAIN FOR ALL TIME SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO KEEP REMINDING YOU:
I am not "pushing" the idea that AA was Anastasia. I am arguing that AA was NOT Franziska Schanzkowska, whoever she was.
Please, please do your best to remember this.
-
Hi this has been the my favorite thread in the whole theme. I was thrilled with the court stuff and even more excited to have a point in fact laid out there as concrete evidence. So thank you Penny, it was worth coming on today just for that. As for the idea that the shape of eyebrows never change, ( for the person who commented on the shape of eye brows)have you been outside lately to see other people? this shape can change daily for those who own tweasers. yes, i watched it change in the same evening for my daughter. but lol. i really really loved the stuff on the lanuage issue. sparrow
-
Penny/ Annie
I have removed my post on this topic and in the future I will try to avoid any further retoric involving this issue. I am quite disapointed, as this is a facinating topic.
rskkiya
-
"Whatever she spoke and how she learned it..." tells me that you have conceded the point.
She may have been familiar with some Russian, as my son is, but there is a huge difference between that and actually being a Russian speaker.
I am not "pushing" the idea that AA was Anastasia. I am arguing that AA was NOT Franziska Schanzkowska, whoever she was.
Please, please do your best to remember this.
Previous posts (unless you deleted them all) by you have stated you believed she 'probably was' Anastasia. I can't read your mind so I don't know if you've changed it, but I can't understand why anyone would become so vehement on this subject just to prove AA was not one anonymous person, but another ??? I am not really buying that, you attitude seems to point to you still hoping to prove an AN connection. Of course I cannot prove that, but it seems that way to me the way you write, the things you post and the way you behave when someone questions you. That's what I'm going by.
Rsskiya, you didn't do anything wrong. We are sniping at each other. However, I have yet to start a thread openly aimed at one person. Even if you want to get one message across you can still start a thread without going 'hey look at this so and so'- stating your case should be enough.
-
..[in part]...
I am not "pushing" the idea that AA was Anastasia. I am arguing that AA was NOT Franziska Schanzkowska, whoever she was.
Please, please do your best to remember this.
It is difficult to understand why anyone would think Penny is arguing that AA is GD Anastasia. I think her words are very clear, she is NOT.
Like her, I am curious to know who AA was.
Why AA refused to speak Russia can never be understood until we learn who she really was. Untill then, we can only speculate.
Apparently, AA understood Russian and at times did speak Russian. To what degree, only she knew, and, we can only speculate.
Evidently, Annie was curious enough or she wouldn't have started this thread.
Penny has given her evidence from the trial.
I don't have any evidence. I never met the woman. I don't have any evidence one way or the other. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing her speak English or German or Russian in all the years she was in the news here in the USA.
AGRBear
-
It is difficult to understand why anyone would think Penny is arguing that AA is GD Anastasia. I think her words are very clear, she is NOT.
Well, her words say that now, but other times have been different, and her intentions and attitude seem VERY different. Like, I could sit here and say, I have been to Venus, my words may say it, but proving it willl take a lot more.
Evidently, Annie was curious enough or she wouldn't have started this thread.
She started this thread to directly target me. If she only wanted to relay info, she could have done so without mentioning my name. I've never seen anyone on any board target someone the way she does me (at least not among people who haven't already been banned)
I don't recall ever hearing her speak English or German or Russian in all the years she was in the news here in the USA.
AGRBear
I saw/heard her speak English many times on TV when I was growing up, and now I have the NOVA program on which she speaks in a very heavy accent which is neither English or American.
-
Previous posts (unless you deleted them all) by you have stated you believed she 'probably was' Anastasia.
This NEVER happened, because this has NEVER been the case since I have been posting here.
I can't read your mind so I don't know if you've changed it...
See, Annie? This is why you irritate me so. I have NOT changed my mind; I have NEVER said I thought AA was Anastasia -- yet here you have planted the seed that I DID at one time, and that I have now changed my mind.
I predict you will also resurrect this exchange as some sort of proof the next time you try to say that I think AA was Anastasia. But I'm on to you, and it is now my plan to challenge this continued assertion of yours at every turn, until you decide to stop it. So it's up to you when this stops.
but I can't understand why anyone would become so vehement on this subject just to prove AA was not one anonymous person, but another ??? I am not really buying that, you attitude seems to point to you still hoping to prove an AN connection. Of course I cannot prove that, but it seems that way to me the way you write, the things you post and the way you behave when someone questions you. That's what I'm going by.
Then what you're "going by" is absolute, unadulterated horsesh*t. I am completely sick to death of your insinuations and false accusations. Stop it, Annie, and stick to the facts.
As for my interest in the "Anna Anderson" mystery: You don't have to understand it, you don't have to "buy" it, you don't have to believe it -- but my interest in her is this: She was unique in the twentieth century -- I know of no-one who kept up such a long and healthy mystery -- and I would like to know who she was. That's it. I do not believe that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. I did think that she was MORE LIKELY to have been Anastasia -- but that was before the DNA testing, which I have told you dozens of times that I accept.
If you cannot grasp the above, then I am sorry, but I can't help you any further. If you cannot grasp the above, then I have to conclude that your obtuseness is purposeful and intended to cause trouble.
Rsskiya, you didn't do anything wrong. We are sniping at each other. However, I have yet to start a thread openly aimed at one person. Even if you want to get one message across you can still start a thread without going 'hey look at this so and so'- stating your case should be enough.
This thread is not "aimed" at a person. It is meant as a response to an oft-repeated misconception -- and YOU are the one who oft-repeats it, so YOU were the one I asked for a response. That's all.
And please don't start the garbage of telling someone HOW and WHEN to post. It's not your job. It's the FA's.
Back to the question: Do you now concede that Anna Anderson spoke grammatical Russian? Will you allow Olga Alexandrovna the last word on this issue, as you've allowed her the last on so many others?
-
Penny thanks so much for those affadavits, very interesting, and yet it speaks so much to the misinformation on this case. I am sure there are volumes more. In fact it looks as we have our own case of disinformation/misinformation being spun and spread on this thread AGAIN. All you can do is fight it with the truth.
One would think that actual court testimony would make some people think before they post. However that is not the case, as we all know. :-X :-X
What I find to be compelling is the testimony of Gillard
& Olga being refuted with their own answers, which shows that this case, then as even now on this thread is more about personal beliefs and agendas than it is about getting at the truth.
For some people the DNA issue answers their questions yet they cannot & willnot accept that others among us have more questions to be answered, and NOT ONE OF US has stated that we do not accept the DNA evidence that AA is not AN. We have said we just don't fully believe that AA is FS. So please Annie STOP twisting our words & statements.
I think that this complied with the affadavits of Erna Bucholz (Nurse at Dalldork) & Thea Malinowsky. This evidence proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that AA did speak & understand Russian, and was able to translate from Russian into German. Kind of strange for an illiterate Polish/Katchoubian peasant girl who stole away to read books in a field....It does make you wonder.
-
I got this information from the trial transcripts.
Questioned by Judge Backen in Toronto, June 11, 1959
OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard, but would say no more.
Backen: And was her Russian grammatical?
OA: Yes.
Backen: She said no more in Russian other than a few sentences to Madame Gilliard?
OA: No. She understood the language, as she answered questions posed to her in Russian in German but, despite my requests, she would not converse with any of us in Russian.
Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 38
Gilliard:
Questioned by Judge Werkmeister of the Hamburg Tribunal, 1 April, 1958
Gilliard: She said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In what language?
Gilliard: In Russian.
Werkmeister: You heard the Plaintiff speak to your wife in Russian?
Gilliard: Only a sentence.
Werkmeister: But you heard this?
Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife. I do not consider that linguistic ability.
Hi Penny,
This is the first time I have read this court transcript. I have a few questions regarding the extract which you have presented here.
a. "OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard"
compare to:
b. "Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife. I do not consider that linguistic ability."
Was this variation in detail given by these two witnesses tested further in Court?
OA did not clearly state (in this transcript extract) that she personally heard Russian spoken in her presence, unless both OA and Madame Gilliard were together in the same room. This is unclear here.
A few lines further down OA does stipulate that only German was spoken in OA's presence.
My other questions are:
Are you able to provide a Court transcript which provides:
1. The specific sentence "she" addressed?
2. The precise Russian words that "she" used to reply?
The length of the query and its reply would not necessarily provide evidence of good linguistic usage, a fact which Gilliard correctlly alluded to.
The expression used by the speaker would indicate the education and social standing of the user, including the city where they learnt Russian. If the language was acquired outside of Russia, or was not the user's primary language, it would be quickly identified by an educated intellectual Russian native speaker from SPb of the day.
Comprehension of a language does not merit fluency in the language.
Were any of these dialectical issues addressed by the Court?
From what you kindly presented here, on balance it cannot not be read that "she" was fluent in Russian.
It could only be inferred that there was some form of understanding of the spoken language.
Finally,
Was "she" asked to write any random words in Russian before the Court?
Thanks for posting the Court Transcripts.
Your replies to these questions will be appreciated. :)
-
This NEVER happened, because this has NEVER been the case since I have been posting here.
Oh yes it did, and even if the posts are deleted, I have witnesses who also saw them. I have talked to at least 3 other people who saw and recalled exactly the same posts, even before I mentioned them. There were several, this is one from last summer I distinctly remember and would swear to with my hand on a Bible in a lie detector test:
"..if she was Grand Duchess Anastasia, and it is my belief probably that she was.."
also:
"...she was NOT FS, she MAY have been Grand Duchess Anastasia.."
Then I made a quote about how she bit her lip to look more like Anastasia, since her lips were too full, and Anastasia frequently bit her lip. Your reply:
"Maybe she smiled like that because she WAS Anastasia ;)"
You know Penny, I also have relatives who hate my guts because I have too good a memory and I can pull up things they hoped were forgotten ;)
-
This NEVER happened, because this has NEVER been the case since I have been posting here.
See, Annie? This is why you irritate me so. I have NOT changed my mind; I have NEVER said I thought AA was Anastasia -- yet here you have planted the seed that I DID at one time, and that I have now changed my mind.
I predict you will also resurrect this exchange as some sort of proof the next time you try to say that I think AA was Anastasia. But I'm on to you, and it is now my plan to challenge this continued assertion of yours at every turn, until you decide to stop it. So it's up to you when this stops.
Then what you're "going by" is absolute, unadulterated horsesh*t. I am completely sick to death of your insinuations and false accusations. Stop it, Annie, and stick to the facts.
As for my interest in the "Anna Anderson" mystery: You don't have to understand it, you don't have to "buy" it, you don't have to believe it -- but my interest in her is this: She was unique in the twentieth century -- I know of no-one who kept up such a long and healthy mystery -- and I would like to know who she was. That's it. I do not believe that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. I did think that she was MORE LIKELY to have been Anastasia -- but that was before the DNA testing, which I have told you dozens of times that I accept.
Well actually I CAN resurrect your direct quote right here, in this post! The thread cannot be bumped, I had to copy and paste:
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #81 on: Jul 12th, 2004, 11:33pm »
Penny_Wilson wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing I can tell you absolutely and positively is that Gleb Botkin was no con-man. He truly and strongly believed in Anastasia Manahan, and he never wavered in this belief.
If she was Anastasia -- and I myself believe it likely that she was -- then Gleb and his sister Tatiana were her two truest friends. And if she wasn't Anastasia, then the Botkins were still her truest friends -- and you do them a grave disservice by suspecting them in this manner. Belief in Anastasia Manahan does not equate with criminal intention -- especially as this "criminal endeavor" made none of them into rich people -- quite the opposite, in fact.
And it's also a matter of fact that neither Gleb nor his sister "lived in the palace for years." In fact, the only member of the Botkin family with regular entree to the palace was Dr Eugene -- and his involvement with and devotion to the Imperial Family was a point of contention with Mrs Botkin, and put a strain on their marriage.
Gleb was also not "with" the family in Tobolsk. He lived in the Kornilov House across the road, was never allowed into the house, and was even stopped from waving to the girls from the street.
So the Botkin children's contact with the Imperial children is something that is often exaggerated.
Here is the link to the actual posting, since I can't bump it or quote it since it was locked (which I guess is why you didn't get to delete it like the others ;) )
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1075191962;start=75
You go on with 'stop it Annie get your facts straight' and call my accusations 'horsesh*t' yet you aren't fooling anyone, several people clearly saw your posts and remember them, and many have commented on your belief, like this post from the same thread:
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #116 on: Jul 30th, 2004, 6:55pm »
IlyaBorisovich wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Penny,
Just out of curiosity, did your research for FOTR have any effect on your belief that AA could have really been AN? Was your belief reinforced or eroded in any way? I've assumed from your posts here that you do believe that AA was AN, but I apologize if I've read that into what you've said. I was convinced that there was no way AA could've been AN after the DNA evidence was revealed, but after reading your posts and considering their source, I'm beginning to have some nagging little thoughts on the subject. I'd appreciate your sharing your insights on that, if you wouldn't mind.
Thanks,
Ilya
There are other incidents too, if I can find them (and if they're still there) I also remember an exchange you had with rsskiya a couple months ago concerning your belief and past quotes by you on the subject.
So you DID say it, I am NOT a liar, and I also think there's a good chance you probably do still believe it, or are at least trying to prove it. Either way, here is your proof of what you said.
-
Penny,
I am not one of the "witnesses" that Annie mentions above, nor one of the three people that Annie says she spoke to, but I also clearly remember you saying things like this (most of them have now been deleted). Up until recently, it certainly seemed that you were constantly arguing (or at least strongly implying) that AA was likely to have been AN. I remember I once even directly asked you if you actually disbelieved the DNA evidence - otherwise why would you feel that AA was probably AN. Which you never replied to because that was the time when you got angry about something (I don't remember about what but it had to do with AA) and left the forum (the first time).
I have to admit that I was very startled when recently you suddenly started saying that you now accept the DNA evidence and believe that AA wasn't AN. But I am very surprised that you now say that you never thought that AA was Anastasia. With all due respect, your posts from the past (now gone) until recently, strongly indicated otherwise.
Helen
-
Penny,
I am not one of the "witnesses" that Annie mentions above, nor one of the three people that Annie says she spoke to, but I also clearly remember you saying things like this (most of them have now been deleted). Up until recently, it certainly seemed that you were constantly arguing (or at least strongly implying) that AA was likely to have been AN. I remember I once even directly asked you if you actually disbelieved the DNA evidence - otherwise why would you feel that AA was probably AN. Which you never replied to because that was the time when you got angry about something (I don't remember about what but it had to do with AA) and left the forum (the first time).
I have to admit that I was very startled when recently you suddenly started saying that you now accept the DNA evidence and believe that AA wasn't AN. But I am very surprised that you now say that you never thought that AA was Anastasia. With all due respect, your posts from the past (now gone) until recently, strongly indicated otherwise.
Helen
No, Helen was not one of the people I was thinking of, but I knew many other people on the forum had to have seen the same things I did.
Even just recently, I recall you (Penny) being called on the subject by someone asking 'tell me you don't still believe she could have been AN!' and you did not deny it.
So Penny, if you have changed your mind, fine (though I will always wonder) but don't claim you NEVER posted it, because you did.
-
Penny's responce was way way back in July of 2004.
We've had quite an education on DNA since then.... Some very good posts which have convince many, if there was no conspiracy, that the DNA tests give proof that Anna Anderson couldn't have been GD Anastasia.
We've talked about various people having changed their minds because of the DNA.
If yesterday, Penny has stated that the DNA has been proof then she's changed her mind, like others have, then she's changed her mind.
The last time I looked, people, especially women [isn't that right, guys], are allowed to CHANGE THEIR MINDS.
With a schedule as busy as Penny's, and if she's like I am, who remembers last week let alone last July.
The point is: SHE"S CHANGED HER MIND.
By the time we're given all this new information from Penny, others, also, may change their minds about AA being FS. Is this what so many of you are afraid of happening? Why? You keep telling us that you don't care as long as people aren't trying to convince you that AA was GD Anastasia. So far, I haven't seen anyone on this thread trying to convince anyone that AA was GD Anastasia. So far, all I see is people trying to convince others that Penny once indicated she thought AA was more convincing to having been GD Anastasia than she was convincing to having been FS. But is this all you're trying to do? Or, are you hoping this little campaign causes Penny to have another flare up and leaves, but, this time, you hope she doesn't come back. Is the truth of what she writes such a threat? No, I can't believe this of Annie. And, I don't want to believe this of anyone else. But one thing is certain, this bickering has GOT TO STOP.
One never needs to be afraid of the truth. And, I do hope that is what ALL OF US are hoping to find.
Back to the topic.
AGRBear
-
...people, especially women, are allowed to CHANGE THEIR MINDS.
Bear, that's a rather sexist comment :o ;D. For the sake of our young and impressionable readers, we must stay politically correct: men change their minds just as much as women do! ;)
-
Is that right? I'll have to have a conversation with my hubby on this new revelation you've just presented me ;). Don't think he'll agree, however.;D
AGRBear
-
Penny's responce was way way back in July of 2004.
If yesterday, Penny has stated that the DNA has been proof then she's changed her mind, like others have, then she's changed her mind.
Bear, there were much more recent comments than that, but as of now I can't find them. If I do I will resurrect them, but I am quite sure she has deleted them.
This is from Nov., declaring she MAY have been Anastasia, and it should still be considered:
Re: AA and FS
« Reply #89 on: Nov 9th, 2004, 2:31pm »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
on Nov 9th, 2004, 1:50pm, rskkiya wrote:
The tone of your most recents comments and responses to those here who are merely curious about information, has rather stunned me... I now must seriously "reevaluate" everything that I have read of yours.
Penny_Wilson wrote:
Why? Because I finally reached the end of my patience with being misrepresented and accused of things I've never actually said? Oh well...
ONCE MORE WITH FEELING: As Greg stated yesterday in a post, our research in this case is focused on Franziska Schanzkowska. I do NOT believe that Fraulein Unbekannt was Franziska Schanzkowska. I think that Fraulein Unbekannt was someone else -- and that someone MAY have been GD Anastasia. I have said before that I do not think that there will ever be conclusive proof one way or the other; but until better answers are found, I consider her still "on the table," and a fit and proper topic for discussion.
I have the same reservations about the 1994 DNA tests that Greg has expressed in his post. These reservations, coupled with the non-forensic evidence of the case, leads me to keep my mind open on the Anastasia question. If this means that any of you guys want to put me against the wall with Peter Kurth, then so be it. I consider him fine and worthy company. But I can't for the life of me see what the problem is with an open mind -- and I don't see why an open mind in this particular case calls for a "re-evaluation" of everything else I've ever written. Seems an extreme response to me...
« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2004, 2:46pm by Penny_Wilson »
The actual thread, once again, closed:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1098396821;start=75
This is the reason I am dragging these posts up:
The bottom line is, she posted that I was lying and should 'stop' my 'horsesh*t' because she never posted that, but she did, and that is my point, not what she currently believes or her right to change her mind. I was defending my own personal integrity as not being a liar.
One never needs to be afraid of the truth. And, I do hope that is what ALL OF US are hoping to find.
Bear, when will 'the truth' ever be enough, ever satisfy you, or anyone? I have become frustrated here on this forum that for some people there will never be a real 'truth' if it contradicts what they would rather see, and that for some, nothing will ever stop their hunger for this mystery. As I've said before about 'the truth', we can't all have our own truths, because there is only one real truth on each historical mystery, and we can't change that.
-
..are you hoping this little campaign causes Penny to have another flare up and leaves, but, this time, you hope she doesn't come back. Is the truth of what she writes such a threat?
Bear, I take serious offense to this statement you just added. Please do not accuse anyone of campaigning to get Penny off the boards - it is simply uncalled for and you are the one who is instigating bickering by posting something like this. I would be happy to delete this post if you delete this and any other inflammatory statements you just posted. Thank you.
-
This is coming from NUMEROUS Forum users... I awoke this morning to the single largest number of emails and private messages about the Forum EVER, and all save one were begging me to END this personal snipe fest between Penny and Annie.
Ladies, what more can I say than the USERS themselves are asking you BOTH to stop. I concur. Your fellow members have spoken.
FA
-
Hi Penny,
This is the first time I have read this court transcript. I have a few questions regarding the extract which you have presented here.
Hi, Belochka! :) See my various responses below...
a. "OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard"
compare to:
b. "Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife. I do not consider that linguistic ability."
Was this variation in detail given by these two witnesses tested further in Court?
No-nothing is mentioned in the transcript, but I only read through and translated from German the most relevant portions, so it might have been pursued later.
OA did not clearly state (in this transcript extract) that she personally heard Russian spoken in her presence, unless both OA and Madame Gilliard were together in the same room. This is unclear here.
They were-in the context of the transcript-it refers to Olga's visit with AA with the Gilliards.
A few lines further down OA does stipulate that only German was spoken in OA's presence.
And Russian-both in questions asked and in the remarks to Shura.
My other questions are:
Are you able to provide a Court transcript which provides:
1. The specific sentence "she" addressed?
Maybe, but I doubt it. I would have to look but I don't believe it is mentioned in this context. There might be references in other materials.
2. The precise Russian words that "she" used to reply?
Ditto.
The length of the query and its reply would not necessarily provide evidence of good linguistic usage, a fact which Gilliard correctlly alluded to.
The expression used by the speaker would indicate the education and social standing of the user, including the city where they learnt Russian. If the language was acquired outside of Russia, or was not the user's primary language, it would be quickly identified by an educated intellectual Russian native speaker from SPb of the day.
Comprehension of a language does not merit fluency in the language.
Agreed. My point is to correct the canard that is continually repeated that AA never spoke or understood Russian -- clearly, she did both. This, coupled with the depositions of more than a dozen parties who stated that she spoke Russian, should end the issue.
Were any of these dialectical issues addressed by the Court?
At great length, but I don't recall where or in what volume they are.
From what you kindly presented here, on balance it cannot not be read that "she" was fluent in Russian.
Again, my point is that the continued assertions that she could not speak or understand Russian is false; I consider these statements, along with the statements of many more (like the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who conversed with her in Russian and was convinced that, whoever she was, she was a lady of good Russian society), to be evidence that she WAS fluent in Russian. Given the number of statements and the wide variety of those involved-including many who did not support her claim-I think the most weight has to be given to the belief that she was fluent.
What I would like, now, is to ask those who contend she could not speak Russian, or could not understand it, to post rebuttals. I am only interested in the statements of those who met her, not second-hand assertions. So I await that list. Please provide sources as I have done, so that their accuracy can be analyzed.
It could only be inferred that there was some form of understanding of the spoken language.
Finally,
Was "she" asked to write any random words in Russian before the Court?
This happened frequently, and many examples exist in the court records-page after page of her Russian. We even have some of these. To obtain a better selection, the Court looked at a number of samples, including letters, postcards, etc., that spanned a number of years, including the 1920s. These were analyzed by both handwriting experts, who concluded that AA's writing matched that of Anastasia, and linguistic experts, who found no errors or
mistakes.
Thanks for posting the Court Transcripts.
Your replies to these questions will be appreciated. :)
No problem! I hope that my answers have been helpful...
-
I did not see the last 2 posts come up as I was editing my other post. Sorry FA, I agree this has gone too far. But as long is she is allowed to openly attack me, call me a liar, garbage, crap, etc. I would think I'd have the right to counterpoint. I realize it takes 2, and someone has to shut up and let it go, but I'd rather not leave my integrity in question if I can back myself up. But I really do hope there will be no more because I don't want to fight. Penny has aimed things at me personally for way too long now, and on other boards I'm on, people have been banned for much less than the way she has behaved here at times.
I guess we should both thank you for continuing to put up with us. I do hope we can all discuss without the personal jabs!! I promise I will be committed to this!
I do have a suggestion: on other boards I'm on, posts become permenant after 1 hour and only the FA can change/delete them after that. I think this would be a good thing here, because then people would seriously have to worry about what they say before they post it and leave it archived for all to see online. I know it's not up to me, but it has helped cut down on the rudeness and extreme behavior on other boards, and it might help here too.
-
Bear, there were much more recent comments than that, but as of now I can't find them. If I do I will resurrect them, but I am quite sure she has deleted them. (I do wonder if her recent 'change' has anything to do with us discovering a recent alleged change in Mr. K also to that same position?) I have a lot of 'pet theories' on all of this but I suppose it's best to keep them to myself since this would be discussing individuals rather than history. :-X
Oh, GOD, Annie! Must you run around after me like this? I'll concede your point, if it will stop you. I DID overstate myself last summer, I admit it. I have swithered back and forth on AA for years -- I've also said that. But I have never said that I did not accept the DNA evidence. I do. Try as I might, I have not been able to reconcile that evidence with the other evidence, which I do believe points unequivocally towards her being Anastasia. Therefore, I have had to concede that she was NOT Anastasia. My only mistake here is in not remembering every freaking post I ever made -- I thought I had come to this conclusion before I started posting here, that's all.
And Peter Kurth has not changed his mind on Anastasia. Write and ask him. That interview was given a good few years ago as he went through the same mental gymnastics that many of us did, trying to reconcile one set of evidence with the other. The interviewer must have caught him on a "bad" day, because I know from our most recent conversations that he still "believes" in her.
And how am I supposed to respond to the insinuation that Peter controls my mind? Think that if you like, you're going to anyway.
Besides, the bottom line is, she posted that I was lying and should 'stop' my 'horsesh*t' because she never posted that, but she did, and that is my point, not what she currently believes or her right to change her mind. I was defending my own personal integrity as not being a liar.
OK, Annie, I'll apologize for this one. But I stand by my belief that a LOT of what you post IS horsesh*t because you don't read the sources.
-
So Kurth still believes in her? Okay, I thought it was strange he'd give up after all this time. And I do not think he controls your mind, that's not what I meant at all.
So let's leave it like this:
You DID post your belief AA was probably Anastasia.
AA DID utter at least one sentence in Russian.
As far as my other posts still being 'horsesh*t', well, I still think that's rude extreme and uncalled for. Hey, we're supposed to call a truce now, it seems unanimous, the only 'horsesh*t' around here is fighting that no one else wants to hear :-/
-
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
That is a line drawn.
Back to topic please.
AGRBear
-
So Kurth still believes in her? Okay, I thought it was strange he'd give up after all this time. And I do not think he controls your mind, that's not what I meant at all.
So let's leave it like this:
You DID post your belief AA was probably Anastasia.
AA DID utter at least one sentence in Russian.
As far as my other posts still being 'horsesh*t', well, I still think that's rude extreme and uncalled for. Hey, we're supposed to call a truce now, it seems unanimous, the only 'horsesh*t' around here is fighting that no one else wants to hear :-/
I can agree with most of this. Hey! Wouldn't it be weird if we had ONE COMPLETE DAY without fighting? :o :D
-
I can agree with most of this. Hey! Wouldn't it be weird if we had ONE COMPLETE DAY without fighting? :o :D
If we stopped, it would be so unusual I think the rest of the members here would have to wonder if the sky was still blue! ;)
-
Hey! Wouldn't it be weird if we had ONE COMPLETE DAY without fighting? :o :D
Not weird, but the way it should be. Let's all visualize a complete day without fighting. I mean it.
-
If we stopped, it would be so unusual I think the rest of the members here would have to wonder if the sky was still blue! ;)
Well, I can't promise NEVER to snap again -- I do tend to be quick-tempered (yes, REALLY! ;D ) -- but I will promise to count to a hundred...
Anyway. Now I have to get out of here to run errands, and one of the things I have to do is go by my husband's work and scan in the Schanzkowska photos, the Fiat truck, etc. As I am almost completely electronically-challenged, is there a kind soul to whom I can email these photos for posting here? I hate to keep bothering the busy FA (is it time for another FA Appreciation Day?)
-
Imagine, and make it happen!
edit disclaimer: I posted this in response to FA's 'visualize' remark, not Penny's, just didn't want anyone to think I was sniping. Her post came up while I was writing and I just noticed this.
-
...[in part]...
...My point is to correct the canard that is continually repeated that AA never spoke or understood Russian -- clearly, she did both. This, coupled with the depositions of more than a dozen parties who stated that she spoke Russian, should end the issue.
Again, my point is that the continued assertions that she could not speak or understand Russian is false; I consider these statements, along with the statements of many more (like the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who conversed with her in Russian and was convinced that, whoever she was, she was a lady of good Russian society), to be evidence that she WAS fluent in Russian. Given the number of statements and the wide variety of those involved-including many who did not support her claim-I think the most weight has to be given to the belief that she was fluent.
What I would like, now, is to ask those who contend she could not speak Russian, or could not understand it, to post rebuttals. I am only interested in the statements of those who met her, not second-hand assertions. So I await that list. Please provide sources as I have done, so that their accuracy can be analyzed.
...
List. I always like lists.
Isn't that what started this thread in the first place ;D
AGRBear
-
..is there a kind soul to whom I can email these photos for posting here?
Penny, a very kind soul that I am ;) I will be more than happy to post them for you. Email them to my yahoo address which is listed here.
Helen
-
Anyway. Now I have to get out of here to run errands, and one of the things I have to do is go by my husband's work and scan in the Schanzkowska photos, the Fiat truck, etc. As I am almost completely electronically-challenged, is there a kind soul to whom I can email these photos for posting here? I hate to keep bothering the busy FA (is it time for another FA Appreciation Day?)
Penny, if you have the scans saved on your computer, you can upload them to photobucket and get a url that will post here! All you have to do is sign up for free, then click the 'browse' button until the pics saved on your computer show up, select the one you want and click 'upload'. When your pic shows up, so will a url for it. Copy and paste that here with the img tags (lower case) and the pics will post!
-
Penny, e-mail them to me:
BrGldBlue@aol.com
AGRBear
Looks like Helen and I are willing to help but she pushed the post quicker than I.
;D
-
If you can email pics, you can upload to photobucket! It's the same thing, the way you attach a file is the same way you upload to photobucket! It's that easy!
(This info for Penny and anyone else wanting to know how to post pics)
-
http://photobucket.com/
And, yes, it's free.
AGRBear
-
Thanks Penny for providing answers to my questions. :)
Personally I would like to see all the Court transcripts which deal with the Russian language issue. That cumulative material would provide a more complete portrayal as to which questions were asked, to whom and what was replied.
From a legal perspective, it is unreasonable to place too much faith with a few selective truncated extracts.
It is therefore impossible to reach a safe conclusion as to:
i. whether "she" spoke fluent cultured Russian as would have been expected, or
ii. whether her Russian was learnt out of necessity for the "project" upon which she was embarking. Did her speech carry contemporary terms relevant to the period? or
iii. was her Russian language knowledge that of a person whose comprehension was more than passable, yet it would be apparent after extensive conversations, that her primary language was indeed another?
Many members of Russian society spoke Russian but with thick French or German accents. Living abroad for much of the year, their perception of what is perfect Russian would be different to that spoken daily in SPb among learned society and in places of higher learning such as SPb University.
We can agree that "she" certainly comprehended Russian, the question is how well? ;)
-
She obviously understood Russian well enough to translate her replies into German for her interview with Olga. (It's in the transcript)
Also read Nurse Bucholz's affadavit, part of which you can find in Kurth's "Riddle of Anna Anderson", as to her ability at that time to understand and converse in complete, connected sentences without any impediment, and she did not speak it faultily. This was in 1920 when she was first in Dalldorf.
-
I do have a question about the Russian spoken by the Romanovs. If I remember correctly, their first language wasn't Russian. Nicholas II and Alexandra didn't speak Russian to each other when communicating with each other. I think they spoke English.
Nicholas II's first language was what? Since his father was trying to Russianize his court, I suspect Russian was used. However, I think German and Dannish and Russian was his first lanuages.
Alexandra's first language must have been German which faded and was little used and English became the dominate and added to this would have been French.
So, who taught Nicholas II Russian? Did the person have an accent?
Who taught Alexandra Russian? This would have been her fourth language. German, English, French and then probably Russian once she was going to wed Nicholas II.
Who taught the royal children Russian? Did the tutor or tutors have accents?
If AA was to have impersonated by design GD Anastasia, she would have learned very quickly how GD Anastasia spoke Russian. Or was her Russian without an accent which should have been there because her tutor/tutors did have accents which carried over into GD Anastasia Russian?
Those who think the daughters of Nicholas II didn't know German, they are wrong. They did knew enough German to communicate with GRs [German-Russians] who were officers in the Tsar's army and servents.
AGRBear
-
The question of what languages AA spoke is really strange. It is said that while she stayed at Dalldorf she spoke Russian to two of the nurses there. We have their testimonies that she spoke fluent Russian. There is no reason to doubt this. But she never really spoke Russian after she left Dalldorf exept for some words and phrases. Princess Ksenia Georgievna(Mrs Leeds) said that she once overheard AA speak Russian to a couple of birds. When Ksenia approached her she stopped at once. Ksenia asked her why she diden´t speak Russian "since you know it". But no she would not do that! But what kind of Russian did she speak? Ksenia said that as far as she could hear it was good,grammatical Russian. I think she must have had a very compelling reason not to speak it as she always refused to do so when asked. Perhaps it wasen´t the "family Russian" they spoke in the imperial family or among the romanovs. They would have noticed this. She clearly understood Russian as she always seemed to understand. But she always answered in German or later in English. She lived for long periods of time among Russian speaking emigrees like the Von Kleists,Schwabes, Leuchtenbergs etc. But she only used German exept for single words and phrases in Russian. She never tried to convince them that she could speak Russian. This is strange as people always doubted her ability to speak it. As someone said who saw her in Berlin: "If only she would speak Russian I would recognize her at once because the likeness is great". Something peculiar is also that AA tended to speak a language the surrounding diden´t understand. In Germany she spoke English and in the US often German to her husband Manahan.The source for princess Ksenia´s statement is her nephew David shavshavadze.
-
If she was GD Anastasia and was constantly asked to speak Russian, I think her refusal would fall into the category of "being obsinate" and once she had made up her mind that was it. And being GD Anastasia perhaps there was no need in her mind to prove anything. She was who she said she was and that was it. And, this would fall into the character of one known to be stuborn and rebellious.
If she was not GD Anastasia then her Russian might have been quickly reconized by it's accent / dialect as not being the Russian spoken the way GD Anastasia spoke Russian. That is why I asked who was her tutor/tutors. Did they have an accent which carried into her so called proper Russian?
AGRBear
PS Please, there is no need to tell me AA wasn't GD Anastasia. We're talking about languages.
-
Alexandra's first language must have been German which faded and was little used and English became the dominate and added to this would have been French.
I think English was her first language, having Orchie as a nanny?
So, who taught Nicholas II Russian? Did the person have an accent?
I would say his family!
Who taught Alexandra Russian?
I think it was Madame Schnieder?
Who taught the royal children Russian? Did the tutor or tutors have accents?
Family, they spoke it with their father from babyhood.
Those who think the daughters of Nicholas II didn't know German, they are wrong. They did knew enough German to communicate with GRs [German-Russians] who were officers in the Tsar's army and servents.
AGRBear
I'm not saying they didn't know it, of course they did, they learned it in school like the others. What I mean (and I'm assuming others think the same) is that it was by far the least used of the four languages. They spoke Russian to their father (and some to each other) English to their mother and with the family, French to the court. They did know German but it was not used much since their German relations (Ella, Kaiser, Ernie, etc.) all spoke and wrote to the family in English anyway. The point is, if a genuine Anastasia were going to choose one language of the four to make her primary one, German would be the least likely since it had been her least known, and likely the one she was least comfortable with.
-
Perhaps it wasen´t the "family Russian" they spoke in the imperial family or among the romanovs. They would have noticed this.
Good point, could be.
-
What is Madame Schneider's background?
German?
AGRBear
-
While looking for my answer I turned to the chapter titled "Citizen Romanov" p. 447 of Massie's book Nicholas and Alexandra and read:
"Once the children were well enough, the parents decided to resume their lessons, dividing their subject amont the people available. Nicholas himself became an instructor in history and geography, Baroness Buxhoeveden gave lessons in English and piano, Mlle. Schneider taught arithmetic. Countess Hendrikov taught art and the Empress religion. Gilliard, besides teaching French, became informal headmaster."
There is no mention of Russian being taught.
AGRBear
-
I went over to the Schneider thread and found the following:
Felix,
Most of what I have learned about Catherine is through this website and other sites discussing the Romanovs, though I do have an outline of the Schneider (or von Schneider) line, taken from which I obtained from a distant cousin of my husband, who lives in St Petersburg. This outline shows Catherine (Ekaterina) as being the daughter of Adolph-Wilhelm born in 1838. However, according to a journal belonging to my husband's grandfather, Edouard-Adolphe (Adolph's younger brother) born 1858, Catherine (nickname Katinka), is referred to as his cousin, daughter of his father's brother, Adolph. Too many Adolphs!
Anyway, Catherine was born in 1866 and was educated in England and Germany, particularly Darmstadt. Edouard 's journal mentions that she also taught the Grand Duchess Elisabeth Feodorovna.
The Schneider family received Russian nobility status in 1868 under Auguste Wilhelm, father of Adolph and Edouard. He was married to Catherine Rachette, grand daughter of Jacques-Dominique Rachette, the French porcleain artist who was "recruited" by Catherine the Great in 1779. JD stayed in Russia until his death so all his children were raised in St Petersburg.
Auguste was a university professor and a state councillor. He was born in Reval Estonia but I don't know why he ended up in Russia.
I hope this hasn't been too confusing.
Evidently she taught English but I see no mention of Russian.
>>Catherine was born in 1866 and was educated in England and Germany, particularly Darmstadt. Edouard 's journal mentions that she also taught the Grand Duchess Elisabeth Feodorovna.<<
Darmstadt was an open city to new ideas so educations of all kinds were important there so many German-Russians, which evidently included Catherine von Schneider family, sent their children.
So, her languages, as far as I can tell was English and German. I assume she probably knew French, too, but I don't know.
AGRBear
-
Bear, we also have the nurses at Dalldorf stating that she spoke "other languauges in her sleep". What languages those were, it does not say in Kurths book.
-
If AA wasn't FS then we don't have the slightest idea the languages she could have spoken.
My one grandmother, the daughter of a sucessfull blacksmith, from a very small German colonly in Russia, spoke seven languages.
Therefore, we can't possibly know what languages she may have uttered in her sleep.
AGRBear
-
Many Poles grew up having learned the Russian language in school, since the borders were changing all the time and many parts of Poland often would become parts of Russia and then change again. Is there any way to find out if the area where FS grew up (I think it was Pomerania?) ever taught the Russian language to the children in schools? It's possible that this was the case, which could mean that if AA was FS she could have picked up enough Russian to understand it fairly well and also speak it (especially if she had a knack for languages, which certainly seems to be the case).
-
Helen your proposals are very plausible.
Many Polish citizens certainly learned to comprehend Russian. But then there is "family Russian" and the Russian used in formal public situations, and that used in classic literature.
For PK to suggest in his book that 'she" spoke a few languages whilst sleeping only clouds the issue.
Nikolai BTW spoke perfect Russian ... his voice can be heard on a couple of recordings. I have one brief extract on CD.
The G.D.'s and Alexei would have had to have formal lessons in the correct use of Russian grammar, which is certainly evident in their notes and letters to their parents (although G.D. Marie had re-corrected errors):
There is also a lovely extract from Alexei's Russian language notebook (c.1912-14)
Their Russian language and literature teacher was Piotr Petrov ... a Russian.
Olga and Tatyana had a Russian governess until 1912, Sophia Ivanovna Tutcheva whose uncle was the famous Russian poet Fyodor Tutchev.
See: Nicholas II The Imperial Family (2004) Abris publications for examples of their writing and grammar.
-
Nikolai BTW spoke perfect Russian ... his voice can be heard on a couple of recordings. I have one brief extract on CD.
I would love to hear N's recorded voice, where did you find it? Is there any way you can upload it somewhere so that we could have access to hear it? I am sure many others would be very excited about it too! :)
-
The CD and accompanying two video tapes of the I.F. was purchased from a man in Krasnoyarsk, Russia two years ago. ;D
-
P.K. did not "say" that. It was part of the affadavits of Erna Bucholz who was a nurse at Dalldorf. The fact that AA, spoke other languages in her sleep does not cloud the issue. It goes towards showing that this woman, whoever she was, had the ability to speak & understand Russian, and speak in other languages. Which along with the affadavits posted by Penny Wilson of Pierre Gillard & Olga A., show that A.A. did speak &
understand Russian.
It too would be intersting to hear the voices of the Tsar.
-
Hi Michael G.
One can speak Russian and know what to reply. But that does not imply that the speaker was Imperial?
To state that a person spoke a number of languages without specifying which were used has little meaning.
Fluency of a language can be interpreted in different ways, depending on who might be your audience.
All the best,
Belochka ;)
-
Of course Belochka I agree completely. I don't think she was Imperial, as I accept the DNA evidence, but I'm not quite convinced she was Franziska S.
I am sure there is conversational Russian as well as formal, as with any language.
During her interview with Olga she could understand the Russian, as she replied to her in German, and Olga does admit as does the Nurses that the patient understood and spoke in Russian.
The fact that she could speak other languages in her sleep, I wish that would have been elaborated on further as to what languages she was speaking while asleep.
-
The fact that she could speak other languages in her sleep, I wish that would have been elaborated on further as to what languages she was speaking while asleep.
I'd be interested to hear more about this too, what languages did she speak? It sounds a little ambiguous to just say "she spoke languages in her sleep".. Sometimes people speak all kinds of nonsense in their sleep, it may sound like another language to someone who doesn't know whether it's really a language or just nonsense. Speaking something other than clear German or English or whatever your native language may be in your sleep doesn't mean you know other languages.
Or perhaps she was "speaking in tongues"? :o ;)
-
When a person is trying so desperately to convince the world that she is Russian, let alone Imperial, then what would be the first thing which would give her game away?
Surely it would be her utilization of the Russian language? A few random words (such as to the birds in the park incident), or perhaps simple replies using short sentences might get her by, but a lengthy conversation would not.
All the purported excuses as to why "she" refused to do so carried much weight in the art of deception.
As a medical scientist, the DNA confirmation cemented my beliefs on this matter.
The AA case is finally closed.
-
For you it is closed, for others it is not.
She spoke more than a few sentences of Russian, as stated by Nurse Bucholz and others. It was no few words to the birds in the park, it was complete, gramatically correct sentences.
As a researcher of history I find the difference in the AA & FS one of the more fascinating mysteries of the IF. The DNA issue only settles one side of it, that AA was not AN. There is another side, the many differences between AA & FS. If it turns out to be that she is FS, oh well, I have lost nothing, until then I will stick to my opinion, and you can have yours.
-
Some historians maybe interested in persuing the question as to who AA really might have been. That is fine. :)
Many Russians, including myself have closed the door on this matter.
I wish you well in your search. It may make for an interesting publication.
All the best,
Belochka ;)
-
I believe Penny has told us a number of times that FS did not speak Russian. Therefore, it may be safe to say that Russian was not taught in the schools the FS family attented.
Learning a new language, such as Russian, I would think would come up in a conversation with the family, but, then, it may not have.
The court trial apparently shows proof that AA did understand Russian and to certain people she replied in Russian. Penny indicated there was more evidence that AA knew Russian. So, I'm not sure why people keep trying to tell us that she didn't.
Thanks Belochka for your answer on the Russian tutors.
...[in part]....
Nikolai BTW spoke perfect Russian ... his voice can be heard on a couple of recordings. I have one brief extract on CD.
The G.D.'s and Alexei would have had to have formal lessons in the correct use of Russian grammar, which is certainly evident in their notes and letters to their parents (although G.D. Marie had re-corrected errors):
There is also a lovely extract from Alexei's Russian language notebook (c.1912-14)
Their Russian language and literature teacher was Piotr Petrov ... a Russian.
Olga and Tatyana had a Russian governess until 1912, Sophia Ivanovna Tutcheva whose uncle was the famous Russian poet Fyodor Tutchev.
See: Nicholas II The Imperial Family (2004) Abris publications for examples of their writing and grammar.
....
So what do we know about Piotr Petrov and Olga and Tatiana's Russian governess?
And, who taught Anastasia and Alexei Russian before March of 1917?
AGRBear
-
Pyotr Petrov was the children's Russian tutor. He died in 1918.
-
Pyotr Petrov was the children's Russian tutor. He died in 1918.
Lanie, did he die of natural causes or was he killed too?
There is actually a sketch of Petrov done by one of the grand duchesses, I can't remember where I saw it... I think it may have been in "Anastasia's Album" book.
-
On the question of whether or not a Polish person would understand Russian, I can contribute some anecdotal evidence. My mother grew up speaking Polish at home, and studied Russian very briefly as an adult through an educational television program, but never took any formal classes in Russian. One time, she attended a business dinner with my father and some Russian guests of his company, and told me later that she was able to understand a good deal of what they said to one another in Russian. So if FS, who grew up speaking Polish, set her mind to learning enough Russian to understand conversations, and to interject the occasional comment in Russian, she had a head start as a native speaker of another Slavic language.
Just anecdotal evidence, as I said. Personally, Anna Anderson's poor English is one of the things that convinced me that she was not Anastasia, but I also don't find the evidence that she spoke fluent Russian very convincing.
-
Yes for those whose minds are closed to other possibilities the case is definitely shut. (Sorry this was meant to say shut, I apologize) :-X :-X
We aren't discussing whether or not she is Anastasia, that has been decided by the DNA evidence. We are discussing whether AA is FS.
We have shown that individual sources who had no interest in this case stated she spoke fluently and understood Russian.
We have Olga's sworn affadavit that she spoke to AA
in Russian, that AA understood her and replied to her in German, so she had that capablility also, while we also have Volkov, Olga, Gillard contradicting their sworn statements by their testimony admitting that the claimant could speak Russian. What other proof is needed? ???
-
On the question of whether or not a Polish person would understand Russian, I can contribute some anecdotal evidence. My mother grew up speaking Polish at home, and studied Russian very briefly as an adult through an educational television program, but never took any formal classes in Russian. One time, she attended a business dinner with my father and some Russian guests of his company, and told me later that she was able to understand a good deal of what they said to one another in Russian. So if FS, who grew up speaking Polish, set her mind to learning enough Russian to understand conversations, and to interject the occasional comment in Russian, she had a head start as a native speaker of another Slavic language.
I had wondered for a while if that was the case with AA. It's nice to have an actual story show that could have been what it was.
Anastasia
-
I know some Polish people who can understand Russian very well and speak it passably well, just because it is similar enough to Russian. Some have learned it a little in school, others not really, but it seems that for many Poles, Russian comes very easily.
In the case of FS, I thought her first language was German and she only spoke Polish a little, is this right? Or was she fluent in Polish?
-
Personally, Anna Anderson's poor English is one of the things that convinced me that she was not Anastasia, but I also don't find the evidence that she spoke fluent Russian very convincing.
These points are exactly my thoughts CatherineNY! ;)
-
Yes for those whose minds are closed to other possibilities the case is definitely shut. (Sorry this was meant to say shut, I apologize) :-X :-X
Excuse me, but it's not a case of minds being 'closed', it's a case of rational minds having gathered enough information to make an informed decision. With the strong DNA evidence (not to prove she wasn't AN, but to prove she was related to Carl Maucher), the strong photographic evidence, the coincidental time of disappearance, and most of the 'compelling evidence' in favor of her not being FS is really nothing more than tit for tat hearsay and this person's word against that, I take it all with a grain of salt. I have never shut my mind until I feel I have all the info needed to draw a conclusion, which I have done.
-
Annie when I consider you in the rational category regarding this case then I will openly listen to what you have to say.......until then......talk to the hand. 8)
This thread doesn't have to do with DNA evidence take those arguments to the other threads.
There is NO STRONG PHOTOGRAPHIC RESEMBLANCE, between FS & AA, unless you consider one BADLY retouched photograph STRONG EVIDENCE, then your case is entirely circumstantial.
We all know WHAT conclusion your mind draws Annie, which is why those of us that are objective & open about this wonder, WHY do you continue to particpate in a discussion for which the issue is already settled for you?????????????? ???
-
.
There is NO STRONG PHOTOGRAPHIC RESEMBLANCE, between FS & AA, unless you consider one BADLY retouched photograph STRONG EVIDENCE, then your case is entirely circumstantial.
yes there is, that's why DaveK continues to post the pic along with the DNA evidence. But if you want to talk 'entirely circumstantial' then you have to rule out all the varying stories about her clothes size, height, eye color and what language she spoke and when. It's all just hearsay!
We all know WHAT conclusion your mind draws Annie, which is why those of us that are objective & open about this wonder, WHY do you continue to particpate in a discussion for which the issue is already settled for you?????????????? ???
Because someone has to stay here and hold down the fort for the voice of reason before kids and people new to the story fall for something that isn't real because of all the sensationalism connected to the case.
-
Because someone has to stay here and hold down the fort for the voice of reason before kids and people new to the story fall for something that isn't real because of all the sensationalism connected to the case.
There are plenty of other threads for that perspective!! Some of these threads plainly state that they are speculative in nature, and therefore that should be telling enough for readers that it falls outside of the standard viewpoint.
And reality is different for all of us Annie. Allow some of us to determine what that might be, without forcing your viewpoint at us at every turn.
-
Annie you can stop purposely trying to derail our discussions! Why don't you join DaveK on that thread, you & you sycophants can discuss DNA until the cows come homeand leave the rest of us to discuss the issues we deem important. After all DNA is your only issue......
-
::)I am not purposely trying to derail any discussions, stop slandering me ::) (j/k/sarcasm)
But seriously I'm not. It just seems that every thread on the topic comes back to the same subject. You asked me an honest question and I answered it.
-
But these threads are NOT ABOUT DNA, again there is a complete thread involving DNA, that NOTHING ELSE is allowed to be discussed or posted. Why can't we have the same respect here?
Whether or not you purposely intend to derail the discussion you manage to, which leads me to believe it is purposeful.
We all agree the AA is not AN. Our discussion is the possibility that AA is not FS. That includes the testimonies, affadavits, etc. Please let us have our discussion without interference. If you have something positive to add, then join us, but don't go around labelling us as crazy, lunatic, or idiots because we don't believe as you do, which is constantly what you infer.
We are all frustrated that this has to happen each & every time.
-
Whether or not you purposely intend to derail the discussion you manage to, which leads me to believe it is purposeful.
Stuff like that really doesn't enter my mind at all. The question you asked me was also off topic. I don't see I've done anything anyone else hasn't done in all these threads. They are all intertwined.
-
Yes, some Polish people can figure out Russian and learn to speak it without to much trouble. And, yes, my grandmother could speak 7 languages fluently but with a heavy German accent. And, yes, there was DNA and yes, everyone has their opinions.
Now, back to the topic of AA and FS and their language abilities.
Penny has said that FS's family has said that FS didn't speak Russian. If she learned to speak it from one of her factory friends, a boyfriend or whereever, we don't know. But, if she had would it have been "proper" Russian?
As for AA - There are witnesses in a trial who talk about her ability to speak and understand Russian. Evidently, the Judges would have used this evidence if they had thought it was a proven point that she was not fluent of the "proper" Russian and judged against AA's claim. The judges ruled they couldn't make a decision. If they couldn't, then we can talk and talk until the cows come home and still not know the answer. Why? Because there are so many stories... But, some of us want to talk about it until the cows come home and look through the evidence and see if some of us can come up with a better view than what the Judges had in the 1960s in AA's trial.
None of us here are trying to "brain wash" anyone into think one way or the other.
So, please, let myself, Michael, Denise and others carry on with our conversation.
AGRBear
-
What is off topic about asking you NOT to continuously try to derail the discussion?? We all know about the DNA and Karl Maucher and probability...It's all there, but there is something about this that doesn't add up for some of us, so it is about more than DNA, and if it proves in the end that this was useless and AA is FS, I will be the first to admit, in fact I have always said it was quite possible.
In historical research you often find things that don't fit the facts you have been told, I have ran across this time and time again, in fact in my family I have debunked MANY legends and family lore, and angered certain people, but when you have so many inconsistencies you just can't shove them all off to DNA, and say it is the only solution that fits. It just doesn't work that way, and that is all we are trying to do here.
-
As for AA - There are witnesses in a trial who talk about her ability to speak and understand Russian. Evidently, the Judges would have used this evidence if they had thought it was a proven point that she was not fluent of the "proper" Russian and judged against AA's claim. The judges ruled they couldn't make a decision. If they couldn't, then we can talk and talk until the cows come home and still not know the answer. Why? Because there are so many stories... But, some of us want to talk about it until the cows come home and look through the evidence and see if some of us can come up with a better view than what the Judges had in the 1960s in AA's trial.
Bear, you bring up a good point here. The judges, who had access to reams of evidence, eyewitnesses etc and couldn't make a decision. Obviously they didn't have the DNA evidence, but all the so called photo evidence, language evidence and AN's relative's testimony were not enough to convince them that AA was obviouly NOT AN and definitely FS.
My point here is that there is a lot of extenuating evidence on the language front as well as other areas. I find the earlier statement (CatherineNY, I think) that it was AA's poor English that was more damning as evidence than her ability to speak (or not) Russian. I was watching the Nova special Helen sent the other night, and I kept thinking how bad AA's English was. For someone who supposedly grew up with an English speaking mother, an English tutor and lived the last 14 years in the USA, it was poor English.
-
What is off topic about asking you NOT to continuously try to derail the discussion??
I was responding to your 'closed mind' comment which I'm sure you meant about the story as a whole, not just this thread!
-
Since the German courts made no ruling as to AA being GD Anastasia, then they wouldn't have said she was FS.
I think Penny said that the FS subject was a very small part of this trial. And, if the courts had said she was FS then they would have made a ruling that she wasn't GD Anastasia.
How old was AA in the film you saw, Denise? And, was there a string of sentences?
AGRBear
-
How old was AA in the film you saw, Denise? And, was there a string of sentences?
AGRBear
She was OLD. I would say that it was 5-10 years before her death. Perhaps Helen knows? I have a bad cold, so perhaps I'll snuggle in and watch it again tonight to get more info.
And yes, she said a few sentences....
-
Bear, I have the same documentary, Peter Kurth is in it, and AA is extremely old in this piece, I think the film was done towards the end of her life. It is a very good documentary, and we need to thank Helen again for it.
Thanks, Helen!!!
-
I think that the video of AA was shot, like Denise said, probably a few years before her death, maybe late 70's, early 80's. She speaks a few sentences here and there. I have also heard her speaking on another documentary where they played an audio tape of her voice. Apparently, her husband, Manahan, made an audio tape of her where she talked about her experiences as Anastasia. This may have been before they got married because she addressed him as "Mr Manahan". So this would mean it was a while ago, she was probably in her 60's or something like that on that audio tape. She speaks there the same way as she did later on, on video when she was a older, with a very heavy accent and somewhat ungrammatically (or at least very awkwardly)...
-
Evidently Lovell taped his interviews with AA. Wonder if the taps are still in existence?
AGRBear
-
Even if the tapes are no more, I'm sure a transcript must exist. As bad as AA's English was, the transcript would probably be a lot easier to deal with...
-
In that documentary AA seems, so...umm... distraite, and of course looked as though she didn't wear dentures, and that can greatly affect the quality of your speech, diction, enunciation, pronunciation, etc.. At that point in time her speech was probably an amalgamam of the different regions she had lived in.
-
Some have learned it a little in school, others not really, but it seems that for many Poles, Russian comes very easily.
It goes both ways. My Russian friend, and a friend of hers, were on a plane in Poland. My friend, Ksenya, was speaking to a Polish man in Polish, despite the fact that she had never learnt or spoken it before. Her friend, Pasha, couldn't speak nor understand what the other two were saying. It really depends on the person.
-
Is there any evidence as to how good a student Anastasia was in languages? I know some people when they leave a language or languages for a period of time, they lose the ability to speak it but not necessarily the ability to understand.
AGRBear
-
Is there any evidence as to how good a student Anastasia was in languages?
Bear, a gentle reminder: we are discussing AA's Russian language abilities here, not Anastasia's. ;)
-
Remember the judges questioning of OA & Gilliard, where they eventually admit that she could speak Russian.
The court ruled that AA did not present enough evidence to prove herself as AN, but she wasn't proven to be FS either. According to Felix his sister spoke good
German...he never mentioned Russian, and it is obvious
from the testimony from the Nurses at Dalldorf she, AA,
spoke Russian, and understood Russian.
So how is this explained? How would FS have learned fluent Russian in less than 4 years, between 1916-20
IF she was the person found in the canal?
-
So how is this explained? How would FS have learned fluent Russian in less than 4 years, between 1916-20
Michael, where did it say that she was fluent in Russian? I remember the part about her being able to understand it when someone spoke it but refusing to speak it, and the part about her uttering a few sentences in her sleep (which is sort of neither here nor there). But how did we go from that to fluent? I think we are getting a little carried away here...
-
Helen please refer to the testimony of Nurse Erna Bucholz when AA was first at Dalldorf. Her testimony/affadavit states:
"During the nightshift I had special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep....I told her one evening that I came from Russia, talked about the Cathedral in Moscow (St. Basil's) and spoke about Russian matters in general. She nodded and said she knew alls this.... I asked her IF she could speak Russian. She answered "YES", whereupon we began to converse in Russian. She did NOT SPEAK IT FAULTILY. Rather she used whole, connected, sentences without any impediments....I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matter."
Connected sentences without any impediments, did not speak it faultily??? This sounds more like the term fluent to me versus what OA & Gilliard referred to.
Also the nurses in Dalldorf NEVER DOUBTED that AA was Russian, It wasn't just her "EASTERN" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep. "She spoke RUSSIAN LIKE A NATIVE, said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who lived in Russia "not like a foreigner who had learned Russian." Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of AA at Dalldorf.
Sounds close to fluent if not fluent to me....
We are not getting carried away here Helen, meaning no disrespect to you. Some of you seem to gloss over these dissimilarities between AA/FS, without batting an eyebrow, then when someone brings up the differences
we get accused of getting carried away, I do not appreciate that in the least. Again I ask you to reread Nurse Bucholz's testimony, we are not talking about a few words, we are talking about whole,
complete, connected sentences without any imepdiments.
ALL the members of the Dalldorf nursing staff could confirm that when Fraulein Unbekannt spoke about Russia, she spoke confidently and precisely.
-
Michael, thanks for posting that, I don't remember ever seeing it before. I wasn't arguing about it, it was really a question about whose testimony said that AA spoke fluent Russian, because I had never seen any testimony that actually said she was fluent, until you just posted this nurse's.
-
My apologies Helen, as I said I meant no disrespect to you.
-
I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matter."
Anastasia Nikolaevna would have no knowledge of military matters.
-
Darth Olga NO ONE, including myself is claiming she was Anastasia Nicolaevna.
The above was sworn testimony of Nurse Erna Bucholz, and we cannot assume what knowledge the daughter of a Russian Tsar whom we know was executed did or did not have. Since the they were given the honorary titles of the heads of various regiments, an interest in Russian military or knowledge of military or pride in Russian military would be normal for the daughter of a Russian Tsar I would think.
-
an interest in Russian military or knowledge of military or pride in Russian military would be normal for the daughter of a Russian Tsar I would think.
I have that interest and knowledge, just from reading books. It doesn't mean a person had to have any connection to a Russian military family.
-
Annie your knowledge or interests are not in question or concern here.
The comment was made regarding AN having no interest in Russian military matters.
The original comment being referred to is from the testimony of Nurse Bucholz. Of course we all know that the patient wasn't AN. For someone pretending to be AN though it would be natural or part of the act to have an interest in all things Russian.
-
On the subject of another language -- but probably not deserving of a thread of its own -- I should point out that Fraulein Unbekannt spoke Hochdeutsch, or high German, and the Schanzkowskys spoke Plattdeutsch, or low German. Not another language by any stretch, of course, but there were dialectical traits and differences.
-
What proof do we have of this other than this or that person's opinion or secondhand word of mouth? All the language stuff is vague like that, so I have to discount it all ON BOTH SIDES.
-
On the subject of another language -- but probably not deserving of a thread of its own -- I should point out that Fraulein Unbekannt spoke Hochdeutsch, or high German, and the Schanzkowskys spoke Plattdeutsch, or low German. Not another language by any stretch, of course, but there were dialectical traits and differences.
Since most of you are not GR [German-Russian] this statement of Penny's may not seem to mean very much, but, to me this is VERY important.
"Hochdeutch" [High German] was the dialect being taught in the German colleges, universities and schools of religion. In the late 1800s and early 1900s the educated community was pulling for a "universal" German language. Any other kind of German spoken by Germans was considered "peasant" German, even though this was not true because there are many different German dialects.
The German GD Anastasia would have been "Hochdeutch".
Those who would have spoken any other kind of German dialect as their first language could be instantly discovered since the pattern of speaking is different.
My father spoke High German and my mother's was Swabian (old low German), so I know first hand the differences.
AGRBear
-
Bear thanks for the differences between the two, and Penny also. Would a person's background, or the region of their birth be their reason for speaking high or low german? Just curious.
-
Annie we have proof from sworn affadavits of people who first cared for Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf. Along with her medical records, these provide a good look at the woman later known as AA. As I have said before which you seem to gloss over, a look at her as she was before the media feeding frenzy over her & this case took over. These people had no interest in the case with the exception of taking care of a sick woman. I would say their descriptions and testimonies would possibly the least tainted and the least prejudicial towards either side, no agenda.
-
Bear thanks for the differences between the two, and Penny also. Would a person's background, or the region of their birth be their reason for speaking high or low german? Just curious.
Yes.
Actually when referring to the different dialects such as high German it was referring to the altitude such as being closer to the Swiss Alps, the northern regions. Middle German was the German spoken in the middle part of Germany and the low Germans were southern German. But, that really doesn't explain it. There is a web site which explains it better. Let me go find it.
AGRBear
-
I've contacted Curious One who has a chart on her web site but she must be gone for the weekend, so, let me give you something from a book titled OF GERMAN WAYS by Lavern Rippely which starts on p. 83 under the chapter titled "The Language, Hight Germen, Low German, Dialects of German".
"...High German is more or less the common denominator between Oberdeuctsch (upper, or mountain German) and Mitteldeutsch (midway German or middle upland German). Low German has been spoken only north of what language historicans call the Benrath line. Benrath is the name of a town near Cologne through which the line happens to run. This line is imaginary, of course, and runs almost straight across the country from north of Cologne in the west, north to Kassel, south of Magdeburg, through Berlin and continues eastward through East Prussia."
The different dialects are a mixture of other languages. For example, if a community was near the Dutch border, their language would pick up many Dutch words... Low Franconian dialtects merges with the Rhenish Franconian dilatects....And so it goes from one area to another.
In the 1500s the Saxon King [a king of one of the German states] made an effort to stanardize the dialects in his duchy. This was the start of the so-called "Kanzleispraache", the language of the state affairs. Along came Martin Luther who translated the Bible from Latin into the Saxon King's "Kanzeispraache" dialect then added his own twist by using mostlyMiddle German which was sprinkled with the others which touched on both sides of this area the High German and the Low German. It was out of Luther's attempt to provide a bible which everyone could read and understand came what is known as the "New High German" which started the new wave of a standarized German.
One should realize that English and German are the products of the common parent, Saxon and share a single "grandfathering" of the Gothic.
But this is getting into stuff you're probably not interested.
It was the "new" High German which GD Anastasia would have been taught by her tutors.
AGRBear
-
I've now uploaded the Unsolved Mysteries episode about AA, for those interested in seeing it.
Just go here:
http://www.legendofanastasia.com/videos/index.html
I forget which section it was but when I watched and listed to the episode about AA from Malenkaya's web site, I heard AA speak. I tried to listen carefully to her English to hear any accent but about that time my house painter arrived and I got invovled with colors.... So, today, I'll go back and watch it all again.
AGRBear
PS http://www.legendofanastasia.com/videos/iso02.mpg
It is in In Search of, 1977, Part II.
-
On the subject of another language -- but probably not deserving of a thread of its own -- I should point out that Fraulein Unbekannt spoke Hochdeutsch, or high German, and the Schanzkowskys spoke Plattdeutsch, or low German. Not another language by any stretch, of course, but there were dialectical traits and differences.
I wanted to said just only a little thing: I didn't remember if it was in Harriet Rathlef book or in Dominique Auclères one...Perhaps in both of them. I read that when the Schanzskovsky family had one of her meetings with our woman (I mean AA ;D) they couldn't "understand her dialect". Am I wrong? If I'm right, you'll see that AA couldn't speak the same language than her supposed family. Strange enough, I must said...
RealAnastasia.
-
According the Penny Wilson, AA spoke High German and the FS family spoke Low German.
There is quite a difference between the two. My father spoke High German and my mother Low German. Two different dialects. Because my parents couldn't communicate in German they spoke English in our home, therefore, I never learned German as my first lanuage like the other kids in our GR community.
At the end of the 1800s and early 1900s, the German prof. and school teachers were required to speak High German and the students who spoke other dialects [Low German, Middle German....] were punished. Germany was trying to have a nationalized language so everyone could communicate. This demand of High German jumped over to the GR schools in Russia and the USA... Alexanandra and her children were taught "proper German", High German.
AGRBear
-
As languages and linguistics are a particular interest of mine, as well as something I studied at uni, I'm yet again breaking my vow of silence to post here with a bit of personal perspective and experience.
I was raised speaking four languages fluently, though my 'native' language isn't the one I use most frequently. From a VERY early age, I spoke High German with my mother and her family, French with my grandmère, English with my father and his family, and Latin with my grandfather (and for those of you who say Latin is dead, medieval spoken Latin is what I was raised with). In each language, I'm often mistaken for a native, and when I added other languages to the mix, I learned each from a native speaker and picked up the accent and dialect. In Wales and Ireland, I was thought to be a native speaker, especially in Wales with my name, and my Russian is heavily pre-Revolution and from St Petersburg, as that's what I was taught. Dialects and accents make a HUGE difference in what we perceive as a 'native' speaker. People who are used to hearing me speak only one language, particularly English, have a very hard time with the idea that my first language is German, but when I find myself good and truly angry, I usually forget to speak English and curse up a storm in German. My husband even downloaded a list of German profanity so that he could understand just what I was calling down on the poor soul who brassed me off. ;)
Getting back specifically to AA, did anyone ever notice her using the 'Romanov language', such as going back and forth between languages, using whatever word in the four 'common' languages fit best? I agree that AA's poor English is more telling than whether or not she spoke fluent Russian, and I remember reading frequently that the girls were picking up an Irish accent from one of their nurses, hence Mr Gibbes being brought in. I'd expect one of the Grand Duchesses to speak fluent, grammatically-correct English with an English accent, whatever accent Gibbes had.
Regards,
Arianwen
-
Thank you, Bear...It was just what I like to know. So, AA speaked a different dialectal form of German from the Schanzskowsky family. They are pretty similar, but the Schanzskowskys couldn't understand AA when she was speaking her German. It was different.
ARIANWEB: Yes; I also like very much languages and philology. I was always interested in them. In my family we speak various languages: Spanish , French and Italian are the basic ones, but I could also understand English reading and hearing it, and my mother speaks it perfectly. As for my brother, he speaks German too. And I can add Portuguese to this. I also speak Portuguese. We are not Romanovs but... ;D
RealAnastasia.
-
while not on point about Russian, but related to language facility, we know that the nurse of the children of August Richard when assigned as a companion to A. on her previuos sojournto the U.S., reported the spoke together in French. We know this from ViVi Richard, one of those children.
R. Richard Schweitzer
-
Very interesting, indeed, for some people said Anna Anderson couldn't speak French very well. I also read that when she was travelling in the "Berengaria" toward the States , in the later 20's, she could speak in French with waitress.
RealAnastasia.
-
Penny,
I just have one question. How can I read the court transcipts that you cited. Are they available online? At a library somwhere? I really enjoyed reading the testimony post and would like to read more. Please let me know. Thanks
-
Penny,
I just have one question. How can I read the court transcipts that you cited. Are they available online? At a library somwhere? I really enjoyed reading the testimony post and would like to read more. Please let me know. Thanks
Penny?
AGRBear
-
Ummm.. sorry -- I didn't notice this before...
As far as I know, the court transcripts are not on-line. The ones I work from were obtained from archives in Germany -- Bensheim and Darmstadt. The majority of them are in German.
-
Ummm.. sorry -- I didn't notice this before...
As far as I know, the court transcripts are not on-line. The ones I work from were obtained from archives in Germany -- Bensheim and Darmstadt. The majority of them are in German.
Thank you Penny. My husband speaks and reads fluent German. But I would imagine I would have to go to Germany to see them, is that correct?
-
...[in part]...
PETER Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:
p. 10
>>...Nurse Bucholz and been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf...later she recalled an event had taken place...in the summer of 1920.<<
Let me incert here about whom Erna Bucholz was. She was a nurse but before the war she had taught German in Russia and knew how to speak Russian. It was she who testified that AA could speak Russian:
>>...I asked her if she could speak Russian. She answered, "Yes," whereupon We began to converse in Russian. She did not speak it faultily. Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments... I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completly conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matters."
...AGRBear
I repeat, the nurse had been a teacher who taught German in Russia and knew how to speak Russian. And, she testified that AA not only spoke Russian but broke the language down by saying "she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments.." like a teacher of a language would and did so for the court.
AGRBear
-
Whew. That was a long thread to get through. First time here - very impressed with this one.
With all this going on, I have to ask if any one has recently attempted to compile any information or conclusions on AAs communicative competence (my phrase du jour) in English, French, Russian and so on? And I really am asking about recent compilations/findings. Something and someone free from the haze of the past adventures of the Anna Anderson Squad and the We Hate Annas. Surely some linguist out there has done a study of tapes, letters, etc.? Or maybe not.
In any case. Let me just say this: the ability of an individual to speak a language is based solely on the interpretation of the listener (a reason why transcripts of AA would be less than helpful). Any one else out there familiar with the linguistic rules of: listener goodwill and communicative competence ( ;))?
-
I am writing this post in reply to a discussion which Grand_Duke_Paul and I had on a thread where it did not really belong. This topic, about languages, suits it better. If anyone by chance would be interested (unlikely) in how the discussion started, it can be read on pages three and four or the topic Photos of Franziska Schanzkowska.
Grand_Duke_Paul, the reason why I at all reacted in the first place was because you wrote this:
According to her sister Gertrude, Franziska spoke German, a dialect known as Kashoub, but that the family spoke little or no polish. In Kurth's book Felix Schanzkowska stated his sister spoke good German and a little Polish.
The way you expressed it, made me believe that you meant that Kashoub is/was a dialect of German. However, in your reply you wrote:
I was just pointing out the direct similarity of the statements of Felix S. & Gertrude S. That their sister was fluent in German, and spoke a little Polish, whether it be Kashoub or Polish itself, is a matter to be determined as Gertrude stated Kashoub, and according to the notes of Dr. Woller & Von Rathlef, Felix said Polish.
And that the nurses at Dalldorf stated she spoke and understood Russian well, this is according to the depositions used as source material in Kurth's book Riddle of Anna Anderson.
Now I see that I probably misunderstood you, and I'm terribly sorry for that. :-[
However, I would like to say (write) some things about Anna Anderson (a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska) and languages in general.
I too have read about the nurses at Dalldorf stating that Fräulein Unbekannt spoke and understood Russian well (if she had really been Anastasia Nicholaievna she should not have spoken and understood Russian only well, but excellent). Who were these nurses? How come they spoke Russian? Were their statements used in the trials later? I have to say I think it is very strange that Anna Anderson would speak Russian at Dalldorf, but refuse to speak it later in life when it would have strengthened her claim. She said she would not speak it because it was the language of the people who killed her family - but was it not also at Dalldorf the language of the persons who killed her family? It makes no sense.
Whether she spoke Kashubian or Polish is not important in this matter. Both are Slavic languages; if Kashubian is a separate language or a Polish dialect is also uninteresting in this matter. The Slavic languages is a language group of about 15 languages. It is usually divided into east, west and south Slavic languages. However, the value of this division on a linguistic basis is disputable, since the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous. The differences between them are significant but not overwhelming. Russian belongs to the eastern branch of the family, Polish to the western. As I said before, this division is a matter of dispute and is often said to have only a geographical value. The lexicalic similarities between some of the Slavic languages are often striking, as is the grammatical structure (the south Slavic languages, i.e for instance Bulgarian, Serbian and Croatian, differ more from the others). Anna Anderson's knowledge of Kashubian/Polish could very well explain how she could "understand" Russian, and utter a few words in it.
To me it is clear why she refused to speak Russian, and would answer in German (the least used language of the ones Anastasia Nicholaievna spoke). She refused of the most simple reason of all - she did not speak Russian. She was Franziska Schanzkowska, who knew Kashubian/Polish and understood a little Russian because of that and undoubtedly she improved her understanding in the years - but apart from uttering a few words now and then, for example to some birds, she could not speak Russian.
-
Here is something that Michael G. posted which answers some of your questions.
Helen please refer to the testimony of Nurse Erna Bucholz when AA was first at Dalldorf. Her testimony/affadavit states:
"During the nightshift I had special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep....I told her one evening that I came from Russia, talked about the Cathedral in Moscow (St. Basil's) and spoke about Russian matters in general. She nodded and said she knew alls this.... I asked her IF she could speak Russian. She answered "YES", whereupon we began to converse in Russian. She did NOT SPEAK IT FAULTILY. Rather she used whole, connected, sentences without any impediments....I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matter."
Connected sentences without any impediments, did not speak it faultily??? This sounds more like the term fluent to me versus what OA & Gilliard referred to.
Also the nurses in Dalldorf NEVER DOUBTED that AA was Russian, It wasn't just her "EASTERN" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep. "She spoke RUSSIAN LIKE A NATIVE, said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who lived in Russia "not like a foreigner who had learned Russian." Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of AA at Dalldorf.
Sounds close to fluent if not fluent to me....
We are not getting carried away here Helen, meaning no disrespect to you. Some of you seem to gloss over these dissimilarities between AA/FS, without batting an eyebrow, then when someone brings up the differences
we get accused of getting carried away, I do not appreciate that in the least. Again I ask you to reread Nurse Bucholz's testimony, we are not talking about a few words, we are talking about whole,
complete, connected sentences without any imepdiments.
ALL the members of the Dalldorf nursing staff could confirm that when Fraulein Unbekannt spoke about Russia, she spoke confidently and precisely.
AGRBear
-
Hmmm. Interesting.
-
Hmmm. Interesting.
Read Kurth's book "Riddle Of Anna Anderson". Nurses Erna Bucholz and Thea Malinowsky, and other members of the Dalldorf staff including doctors, gave depositions on the patient. This is just a part of one of them. I am not sure on what date the depositions were made.
-
Read Kurth's book "Riddle Of Anna Anderson". Nurses Erna Bucholz and Thea Malinowsky, and other members of the Dalldorf staff including doctors, gave depositions on the patient. This is just a part of one of them. I am not sure on what date the depositions were made.
I've been a little hesitant to read Kurth because of the bias towards AA he is known for. I doubt it provides an even handed look at the situation and takes everything into account, so I stay away from it. For me, since I'm anti-AA (in the sense that she is not AN) it would be like reading 'Mein Kampf" in order to change my mind about how evil Hitler was.
And, no, I am not in any way comparing AA to Hitler. She is not evil, she is not a deviant dictator, I do not blame her for WWII or the concentration camps nor do I blame her for the fall of Rome or the sinking of the Titanic. There, that disclaimer should cover it.
-
<<< Whether AA spoke Kashubian or Polish is not important in this matter. Both are Slavic languages; if Kashubian is a separate language or a Polish dialect is also uninteresting in this matter. The Slavic languages is a language group of about 15 languages. It is usually divided into east, west and south Slavic languages. However, the value of this division on a linguistic basis is disputable, since the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous. The differences between them are significant but not overwhelming. >>>
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, this statement is simply not true. Various of the Slavic languages are close to unintelligible to one another, i.e., they are separate and distinct languages, all descended from Slavonic. French and Romanian are Latin languages: Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.
<<< Russian belongs to the eastern branch of the family, Polish to the western. As I said before, this division is a matter of dispute and is often said to have only a geographical value. >>>
HORSEFEATHERS.
<<< Anna Anderson's knowledge of Kashubian/Polish could very well explain how she could "understand" Russian, and utter a few words in it >>>
MORE HORSEFEATHERS. Most Poles can't understand Kaschoubian! And the testimony is that AA ~conversed~ in Russian in whole sentences. This doesn't mean that she was ANR, but it probably means she was not FS.
Alec Lowly
-
In that documentary AA seems, so...umm... distraite, and of course looked as though she didn't wear dentures, and that can greatly affect the quality of your speech, diction, enunciation, pronunciation, etc.. At that point in time her speech was probably an amalgamam of the different regions she had lived in.
What do we know about Anna Manahan's health? Can we rule out any small strokes that may have affected her speech? I know of a case, a friend of my grandmother, who spoke fluent, lightly accented English (her native language was French) for more than 40 years. She had the strokes, small enough to be debilitating but otherwise the woman was fine -- except that her spoken English changed drastically for the worse. She lived another fifteen years or so, but her speech did not improve. It wasn't slurred, but it was heavily accented. Strange.
-
Anastasia Nikolaevna would have no knowledge of military matters.
Umm ... how do we know that? The Tsar was ~very~ involved in military matters, and one assumes that the subject became a particularly hot topic as of August 1914, even for the children. On the other hand, would FS have had much knowledge of military rnatters?
It's a puzzle.
A.L.
-
Versoix, you show great insight! Thank you!
-
On the other hand, would FS have had much knowledge of military rnatters?
It's a puzzle.
A.L.
Given the climate of the times and the area that she grew up in, it is likely she knew something of military matters.
-
According to Edward Fallows, Anastasia spoke Russian with his Russian-speaking college, Albert F. Coyle. She also tried to teach Adele von Heydebrandt the language. And Nina Chavchavadze said, after meeting her, that: It is not true that she cannot speak Russian.
Kind regards,
Chat Noir
-
Regarding Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson and Dalldorf where she supposedly was "fluent in Russian". I am still wondering if the statements by the nurses were ever used later, and if they were not, it would be very interesting to know why.
Also:
ALL the members of the Dalldorf nursing staff could confirm that when Fraulein Unbekannt spoke about Russia, she spoke confidently and precisely.
That is ridiculous, and actually gives less value to these statements. Dalldorf - a mental institution among many in Germany, but "ALL the members of the nursing staff" there had enough knowledge concerning Russia to judge whether Fräulein Unbekannt (Franziska Schanzkowska, later to be known as Anna Anderson), "spoke confidently and precisely" about Russia. Does this deserve belief? No, I do not think so.
-
<<< Whether AA spoke Kashubian or Polish is not important in this matter. Both are Slavic languages; if Kashubian is a separate language or a Polish dialect is also uninteresting in this matter. The Slavic languages is a language group of about 15 languages. It is usually divided into east, west and south Slavic languages. However, the value of this division on a linguistic basis is disputable, since the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous. The differences between them are significant but not overwhelming. >>>
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, this statement is simply not true. Various of the Slavic languages are close to unintelligible to one another, i.e., they are separate and distinct languages, all descended from Slavonic. French and Romanian are Latin languages: Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.
<<< Russian belongs to the eastern branch of the family, Polish to the western. As I said before, this division is a matter of dispute and is often said to have only a geographical value. >>>
HORSEFEATHERS.
<<< Anna Anderson's knowledge of Kashubian/Polish could very well explain how she could "understand" Russian, and utter a few words in it >>>
MORE HORSEFEATHERS. Most Poles can't understand Kaschoubian! And the testimony is that AA ~conversed~ in Russian in whole sentences. This doesn't mean that she was ANR, but it probably means she was not FS.
Alec Lowly
With all due respect, Mr. Versoix, did you read my post at all? I did not say that the Slavic languages are not separate and distinct languages - of course they are. I know perfectly well how they are related to each other, and I also know how Germanic and Roman languages, and for that matter Baltic languages and various others, are related to each other. What I said was, and that is based on what I have read in encyclopedias, books about linguistics and other scientific works, that the Slavic group of languages is rather homogeneous and that the lexicalic and grammatical similarities often are striking. That does not mean that all Slavic languages are immediately mutually intelligible. I also said that the differences between the various Slavic languages are significant but not overwhelming. Please read posts properly.
Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.
A Frenchman would have some problems understanding a Romanian, while a Portuguese would have lesser problems understanding a Frenchman. A Portuguese and a Spaniard understand each other rather well, and I have both read and been told that quite a number of people with Spanish as their first language understand Italian to some degree. Also, I have a partner at my job who is Romanian and he says he understands Italian rather good; of course I have no possibility to know how much Italian he does understand, but on the other hand, I have no reason at all to doubt what he says. I know perfectly well that English is a Germanic language, Mr. Versoix. English is not my first language - Swedish is. Swedish is a Germanic language too, but maybe you know? Do I understand Dutch? Well, just for fun I read exerpts long ago from The Diary of Anne Frank in Dutch and I understood parts of it. If a person spoke Dutch to me I would understand parts of it, but not as much as I would of the written language, with a lot of effort. I understand Norwegian and Danish perfectly well, especially Norwegian, although I do NOT speak either of them. You should also know, Mr. Versoix, that this is very individual and you can NOT take a random group of people and expect them all to understand, or not understand, a related language to the exact same degree. This is well known and should be basic knowledge for anyone interested in languages. My brother, for instance, understands Norwegian well, but has big problems understanding Danish.
The question of intelligibility between related languages is very complex, and indeed the degree of ability to understand a language to which one's first language is related is individual. It is a separate topic which does not really belong here.
MORE HORSEFEATHERS. Most Poles can't understand Kaschoubian! And the testimony is that AA ~conversed~ in Russian in whole sentences. This doesn't mean that she was ANR, but it probably means she was not FS.
Well, for your knowledge, most Poles have not even heard Kashubian. There are several Polish dialects, and most Polish linguists consider Kashubian a Polish dialect. And for that matter, it seems as if the Schankowska siblings did not see any big differences between the two, since one of them said that Franziska Schanzkowska spoke Kashubian and the other one that she spoke Polish . The most divergent dialect of Kashubian, Slovinzian (not to be confused with Slovene/Slovenian), is since long extinct.
"Converse" is a matter of perception, as is "whole sentences". I take these statements with a huge pinch of salt, as it is a fact that Anna Anderson later never spoke Russian, except for some occasionally uttered or blurted words or sentences.
Anyway, this discussion is actually of no use, since it has been proven by science (do you believe science, Mr. Versoix?) that Anna Anderson was indeed not Anastasia Nicholaievna, but Franziska Schanzkowska. To me the case is closed, science has proved the truth. I have spent parts of this morning (it is late morning now where I live) reading various threads and topics in this section of The Alexander Palace Discussion Board and I now understand that I should not have bothered to post at all, since all questions regarding Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson seem to have been answered over and over again and there seems to be nothing more to add, not to speak of the fact that it seems to be absolutely impossible to convince the people who believe that Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nicholaievna (or that she was not Franziska Schanzkowska) that they are wrong.
Lastly, Mr. Versoix, you did say "with all due respect" in your post, but in fact you were rude and indeed unnecessarily so. I have no interest what so ever in netfighting with anyone, including you, and if things can not be discussed in a civil manner I am not interested at all in taking part in any discussion.
-
Also:
That is ridiculous, and actually gives less value to these statements. Dalldorf - a mental institution among many in Germany, but "ALL the members of the nursing staff" there had enough knowledge concerning Russia to judge whether Fräulein Unbekannt (Franziska Schanzkowska, later to be known as Anna Anderson), "spoke confidently and precisely" about Russia. Does this deserve belief? No, I do not think so.
Excellent point!!!
I just wish people would except the findings of DNA test i.e that AA/FS (whatever you want to call her) was a fake :)
-
Please folks...STOP THIS!
Look, I speak Russian with a fairly good accent [or so I am told] however I am just learning this language so I cannot do much but understand bits of other peoples overheard conversations...
Sadly we still only have hearsay to go on. I am not a philologist and I never heard Anastasia Manahan speak, so I am just trying to find the facts...Is that is all right .... or am I NOT being polite enough?
-
Dear Rebecca,
My -- aren't we sensitive! What would be really rude would be for me to ignore your post. It's odd, but you've confirmed much that I had to say. When you find an English speaker who can understand Dutch at first hearing or first sight, please let me know. A Frenchman would have extraordinary problems understanding Romanian; an Italian, much less so. Spanish and Portuguese are closely related. Swedish is closer to Dutch than English. I know more about Polish and its variants than you realize. Yes, it's certainly true that some people are better at languages than others.
In my opinion, it has ~not~ been definitively proven that AA was not ANR or that she was FS. Frankly, I don't know who AA was, but testing done in the early '90s using a 6-point Short Tandem Repeat isn't much evidence today, when 20-point STR is the standard and exponentially more accurate. The 6-point STR yields a high rate of false positives and false negatives. That's a fact. You don't have to believe me -- go do some research.
I'm new to this board and haven't yet had the time to visit the DNA threads. I'm looking forward to that.
Cheers,
Alec Lowly
Mr. Versoix. Why should I not be sensitive when someone is verbally condescending towards me? But let us not pursue this subject, as it is useless.
Reading your last post has made me sure that you, again, have not read my post properly. I have made no statements about English persons understanding Dutch. I am not sure of what exactly you mean by understanding. Do you suggest that it has to be a 100% degree of understanding, and nothing else counts?
I do not know if you are deliberately misunderstanding me, or what you are trying to do. Yes, Swedish is closer to Dutch than English - and English is closer to Dutch than Swedish, consequently. And I have never stated that there is a mutual intelligibility among ALL related languages. But in many cases there is enough mutual intelligibility to give a person a notion of what the other person is talking about. My own polyglot grandmother was an example of this.
I have not said that Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson fully understood Russian but because of the fact that she did speak Kashubian and/or Polish she would certainly understand enough to get a notion of what the person speaking in Russian was talking about. A notion which she later improved she found out that it was not going to be as easy as she might have thought to go out and claim to be the murdered Anastasia Nicholaievna.
This comparison is all I could find at short notice, but please take a look and see if the similarities between Polish and Russian are striking (which I think they are) or if they as you said in a previous post, "aren't all that mutually comprehensible". It is the first line of the Lord's Prayer (I assume you are Christian; I'm not):
Russian: Otiets nash kotory yesi na nyebesakh
Polish: Ojcze nasz, który jest w niebie
I beg for indulgence with my Russian spelling; the text was originally written in the Cyrillic alphabeth and I am not very good at transliterating it.
Now - are the similarities apparent or are they not comprehensible?
I do not question you when you say that you know more about Polish and its variants than I realize. Most likely it is so.
Please do read the threads that are on the DNA subject. You will find many VERY informative and knowledgeable postings there, made by people who know far more about this than I do. May I recommend especially the Forum Admin's posts where he explains that he has been in contact with experts and asked them if the DNA-testings from the 1990's are indeed accurate, as the pro-Anna-Andersons repeadetly claim. Postings by Helen_A and Annie are also very informative and interesting. Read carefully.
But of course, you could be one of those people who know more than science since science does not always produce the results or answers that you want. I do not know if you are. I am not.
With this, I consider this discussion as ended, as I have no interest in continuing discussing with rude persons. Have a nice day, Mr. Versoix. If you have anything more of interest to say to me, please feel free to send me a private message. Good bye.
-
Excellent point!!!
I just wish people would except the findings of DNA test i.e that AA/FS (whatever you want to call her) was a fake :)
I agree totally. I do not really understand their motives. I am quite sure they would accept DNA-results in any other given case, but not in this. It is unbelievable. ??? :P ::)
-
I'm realy sorry, but I'm gonne mingle in this conversation.
I'm bilingual Polish-Dutch. I also speak English, French, Spanish and am now learning Russian.
My father lives in the "Kaszuby".
I don't understand Kaszubian, not a single bit. I tried to read a Kaszubian text, but I just don't understand the dialect.
As for Russian, my Polish didn't give me an advance on the course. I must amit, when some words were spoken I could guess their meaning, but it's since I finished my first level that I actualy understand some parts of Rusian conversations.
I have family in Sweden, Dutch and Swedish are less alike than the Antwerp dialect and Swedish. (And I'm not the only one who claims this, coming from Antwerp)
-
I'm realy sorry, but I'm gonne mingle in this conversation.
I'm bilingual Polish-Dutch. I also speak English, French, Spanish and am now learning Russian.
My father lives in the "Kaszuby".
I don't understand Kaszubian, not a single bit. I tried to read a Kaszubian text, but I just don't understand the dialect.
As for Russian, my Polish didn't give me an advance on the course. I must amit, when some words were spoken I could guess their meaning, but it's since I finished my first level that I actualy understand some parts of Rusian conversations.
I have family in Sweden, Dutch and Swedish are less alike than the Antwerp dialect and Swedish. (And I'm not the only one who claims this, coming from Antwerp)
Yes, Lyss, but this is your individual experience. It might not be the same with Franziska Schanzkowska, who could have had a special gift when it came to understanding languages. I have had and still have some Polish friends who say that they can understand Russian partly, depending sometimes on the subject.
I am sorry, but I do not know the Antwerp dialect, so I can not take stand in this matter. All I can say is that when I have read texts in Dutch I have understood parts of it, and when I hear songs sung in Dutch, I also understand parts of them. Maybe it is just me, but I do not think so.
-
Versoix,
Your postings about the DNA unreliability are removed as they violate Forum rules. The DNA testing is NOT unreliable using the older method. The fact that newer testing has increased the sensitivity does not lessen the effectiveness of the origial testing. The AA sample had FIVE points of difference from the Alexandra maternal line. The new 20 point STR wont CHANGE that at all...UNLESS you cite and/or provide specific peer review journal published information that specifically STATES and proves the claim of unreliability, such statements are removed without notice. Further, the Japanese testing has already been proven in peer review work as has the putative GD Elisabeth finger testing to be incorrect and wholly unreliable. They also may not be cited here to question the Gill work.
As you are a new user, I have taken the time to make this clear, but be advised that this rule is STRICTLY observed in here.
-
I've been a little hesitant to read Kurth because of the bias towards AA he is known for. I doubt it provides an even handed look at the situation and takes everything into account, so I stay away from it. For me, since I'm anti-AA (in the sense that she is not AN) it would be like reading 'Mein Kampf" in order to change my mind about how evil Hitler was.
And, no, I am not in any way comparing AA to Hitler. She is not evil, she is not a deviant dictator, I do not blame her for WWII or the concentration camps nor do I blame her for the fall of Rome or the sinking of the Titanic. There, that disclaimer should cover it.
Tsarina Liz,
I appreciate the candor, but please take a chance and read the book, just for the sources it uses. While I agree that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia N., this book in my opinion offers an insightful look at her life and the case. While it may be biased in the sense that he knew & believed Anna Anderson Manahan, at least he uses reliable, and verifiable source material, which you said earlier on a different thread that you were looking for.
Some of the other books such as Klier & Mingay's doesn't doucument in detail the sources as Kurth's does, while I am not deriding their book, I wish they had been more forthcoming in some areas with their source material.
The Riddle Of Anna Anderson can probably be found very inexpensive on Half.com
-
I haven't had any experience with Polish, but while we were without a Priest would attend Liturgy at the Serbian Church. During the Sermon, I could understand little bits. My Russian friends, once they got used to it, could understand fairly well, but there are many 'false friends' words that come from the same source but have completely different meanings in the two languages as they evolved away from each other. Another time, I was watching a movie on TV in Sweden. It was subtitled as movies tend to be there, and I was listening and kind of reading at the same time when I noticed that the actor did not use the words that appeared on the subtitles. Up until that point I'd assumed it was a Swedish movie as I had been understanding it fairly well (Swedish is another language I speak). The movie was in fact Norwegian. I expect Sweish and Norwegian are much closer than Russian and Polish, but really I don't think one would have to be a linguistic genius to be able to understand a language closely related to ones own if one has been exposed to it and had some experience of hearing it and getting used to the slight changes in sound.
English, with the great vowel shift is a different matter. While the written words look quite close, and the language is of course close to Dutch, Friesian, German and the Scandinavian languages, the complete shift in vowels make it difficult for one to catch the gist of these languages aurally without having studied them.
-
Tsarina Liz,
I appreciate the candor, but please take a chance and read the book, just for the sources it uses. While I agree that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia N., this book in my opinion offers an insightful look at her life and the case. While it may be biased in the sense that he knew & believed Anna Anderson Manahan, at least he uses reliable, and verifiable source material, which you said earlier on a different thread that you were looking for.
Some of the other books such as Klier & Mingay's doesn't doucument in detail the sources as Kurth's does, while I am not deriding their book, I wish they had been more forthcoming in some areas with their source material.
The Riddle Of Anna Anderson can probably be found very inexpensive on Half.com
They've got it at the local library, no way am I buying the biased dreck. And I will be checking the sources simply out of skepticism ;)
-
I haven't had any experience with Polish, but while we were without a Priest would attend Liturgy at the Serbian Church. During the Sermon, I could understand little bits. My Russian friends, once they got used to it, could understand fairly well, but there are many 'false friends' words that come from the same source but have completely different meanings in the two languages as they evolved away from each other. Another time, I was watching a movie on TV in Sweden. It was subtitled as movies tend to be there, and I was listening and kind of reading at the same time when I noticed that the actor did not use the words that appeared on the subtitles. Up until that point I'd assumed it was a Swedish movie as I had been understanding it fairly well (Swedish is another language I speak). The movie was in fact Norwegian. I expect Sweish and Norwegian are much closer than Russian and Polish, but really I don't think one would have to be a linguistic genius to be able to understand a language closely related to ones own if one has been exposed to it and had some experience of hearing it and getting used to the slight changes in sound.
English, with the great vowel shift is a different matter. While the written words look quite close, and the language is of course close to Dutch, Friesian, German and the Scandinavian languages, the complete shift in vowels make it difficult for one to catch the gist of these languages aurally without having studied them.
I studied English at school, which makes it impossible for me to determine how much of it I would have understood if I had not studied it, but I would agree with you - the special pronounciation of the vowels in English makes it quite different from other Germanic languages (although I think that Frisian, that is the variety of Frisian spoken in parts of the Netherlands, is considered to be closest to English). A good example of this is knife, which is kniv in Swedish. Knife - Kniv, they do look alike. Everybody here knows how knife is pronounced. Kniv, the Swedish word, is pronounced approximately k-n-ee-v. The two words are very different when pronounced.
"False friends" are legio in Swedish and Norwegian. ;D You have to be aware of them to avoid funny or embarrassing misunderstandings. One of the best known false friends is the adjective rolig, which means fun, enjoyable in Swedish but calm, peaceful in Norwegian. :D
I agree very much with your post. I also think that exposure to related languages is an important factor in this, and although I have not found the village where Franziska Schanzkowska was born on the map, I know approximately where it is. It would not be surprising if she had some exposure to Russian.
Talar du svenska, Georgiy? Det var trevligt att höra, och väldigt överraskande. :)
-
Ja, jag talar svenska. Men kanske inte saa bra nufoertiden.... :(
-
Jag har i alla fall ingenting att anmärka på de båda meningarna. :)
Sorry to go off topic, but I could not help myself.. :-X :)
-
I knew I had read there was tie into the Dutch language. Here is the post:
Here at 12:47 a m June17, 2005, I find myself seeing these posts for the first time. I have not finished reading them all.
That said, I should point out what some of my subsequent investigation has disclosed that might be of interest.
The "Polish" family from which Karl Maucher is purported (but not scientifically proved) to descend was actually of Frisian origin, Mennonites, who settled in and drained the lowlands of that area of Poland. These were Kashuban ((Kaszubski) who spoke a dialect of Old Dutch. So, Polish data bases (unless from descendents of those same settlors) would not be any more applicable than other Caucasians.
That family was extensively researched in a German Eugenics study made in the '40s re: Inherited Criminality (none found).
I will try to add more later this day
-
The Kaszubian word for yes is not the Polish "tak" but "ja" what means "I" in Polish but "yes in German and Dutch". I always thouhgt it was some "left over" of Geramany
-
Regardless of what Mr Richard Schweitzer says, Kashubian is and has always been a Slavic language - with many German loanwords of course. I do not think there is even one serious linguist who would say that it has its origin in "Old Dutch". ::)
Mennonites? I am not very familiar with their history, but I am sure their history do not go further back than the birth of Protestantism (as they are Protestants), which means about half a milennium ago. The Kashubians and their language is actually MUCH older than that... The oldest written proof of their existance in the area they inhabit dates from 1238 - and back then there were no Mennonites.
About the word "ja". It means "yes" in Swedish too. In Kashubian it is obviously a loanword from German. In Romanian the word for "yes" is "da", like in most Slavic languages. Does that make Romanian a Slavic language? No, of course not - because "da" is a loanword. I am mentioning this only as a comparison. (Maybe I should add, to avoid misunderstandings, that Romanian is a Romance language, which means it is descended from Latin).
-
I have done a quick research on the history of the Mennonites. Their name is derived from the name of the founder of the Mennonite movement, Menno Simons, who lived 1496-1561. Some Mennonites did settle in northern Poland in the late 1500's to escape from persecutions in the Netherlands. It is not impossible at all that there was some intermarriage with the Kashubians. But whether there was or was not, is not relevant in the question of the origin of the Kashubians and their language, since the small number of Mennonites settled in this area more than 300 years later than the first written proof about the Kashubians (1238; and it is safe to assume that by 1238 the Kashubians had lived there for centuries already).
-
I didn't mean to deny the information given about FS's Slavic origin, I just remembered I had read it, it [the Dutch part] had stuck in my head, as it had others, so, now that little tiny mystery is solved.
Oh, almost forgot. There was a large wave of Mennonites who migr. into Russia in the early 1800s. I have more information around here if anyone needs it.
AGRBear
PS I assume when Richard Schweitzer did his early research on FS's family that his information was limited, unlike today, where we have the access to all the latest data. Most of the languages of the world have been reexaimined and many views have seen changes because of the use of computers and people who are thinking outside the box. Earlier many of the researchers had been confined to earlier limitations in this field for various reasons.
-
Hi! Since I'm a Pole, and I think I can add something to this topic...
I have not said that Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson fully understood Russian but because of the fact that she did speak Kashubian and/or Polish she would certainly understand enough to get a notion of what the person speaking in Russian was talking about.
It's not certain. Poles usually don't understand Kashubian at all. Of course - they can understand some words, but the can also understand some in French, German etc. But most of Poles (who don't have Kashubian roots) can't understand a longer utterance in Kashubian.
Russian was compulsory in polish schools AFTER WWII - that's why novadays many (esp. older) Poles can understant it. But many younger pepole in Poland have serius difficulties in understand longer utterence in Russian...
Secondly, Borowy Las (FS's birthplace) was NEVER under Russian influence... Most Kashiubians hardly ever met any Russians at that time... Seldom did they have any opportunities to hear Russian...
This comparison is all I could find at short notice, but please take a look and see if the similarities between Polish and Russian are striking (which I think they are) or if they as you said in a previous post, "aren't all that mutually comprehensible". It is the first line of the Lord's Prayer (I assume you are Christian; I'm not):
Russian: Otiets nash kotory yesi na nyebesakh
Polish: Ojcze nasz, który jest w niebie
I beg for indulgence with my Russian spelling; the text was originally written in the Cyrillic alphabeth and I am not very good at transliterating it.
Now - are the similarities apparent or are they not comprehensible?
My point is that Kashubian is NOT so similar to Polish than you think, and also that Russian is NOT so simmilar to Polish as you think, but EVEN IF we agree than they are, we can NOT say that Kashibuian is similar to Russian. It's a logical fallacy... (A can be like B, B can be like C, but it doesn't mean that A is like C...)
About Pater Noster...
That's Russian transliteriation:
Ótče naš, súščij na nebesách!
Da svjatítsja ímja Tvojë;
Da prijët cárstvie Tvojë;
Da búdet vólja Tvojá i na zemlé, kak na nébe.
Chleb naš nasúščnyj daj nam na sej den';
I prostí nam dolgi náši,
kak i my proščáem dolžnikam našim.
I ne vvedí nas v iskušénie,
no izbáv' nas ot lukávogo.
kashiubian version:
Òjcze nasz, jaczi jes w niebie,
niech sã swiãcy Twòje miono,
niech przińdze Twòje królestwò,
niech mdze Twòja wòlô
jakno w niebie tak téż na zemi.
Chleba najégò pòwszednégò dôj nóm dzysô
i òdpùscë nóm naje winë,
jak i më òdpùszcziwómë naszim winowajcóm.
A nie dopùscë na nas pòkùszeniô,
ale nas zbawi òde złégò.
SOME words ARE similar indeed... but most are not! As a Pole a can understand second, but have problems with first...
(sorry for my bad English... ;))
-
Many Poles grew up having learned the Russian language in school,
Yes, but only under Russian occupation and after WWII...
since the borders were changing all the time and many parts of Poland often would become parts of Russia and then change again.
It abslolutely not the case - Poland was partitioned between Austia, Germany, Russia by the end of XVIII century... Again in 1939...
Is there any way to find out if the area where FS grew up (I think it was Pomerania?) ever taught the Russian language to the children in schools?
Pomerania (esp. Borowy Las in Bytów area) was NEVER a part of Russia... It was a part of Germany... Poles living there were strongly germanized...
Bytów district (germ. Landkreis Bütow) was a part of Prussia (later Germany) from 1773 till 1945... I can see no reason to think that FS had to learn Russian at school or at home... ;)
It's possible that this was the case
It's unlikely...
-
Many Poles grew up having learned the Russian language in school,
Yes, but only under Russian occupation and after WWII...
since the borders were changing all the time and many parts of Poland often would become parts of Russia and then change again.
It abslolutely not the case - Poland was partitioned between Austia, Germany, Russia by the end of XVIII century... Again in 1939...
Isn't that what she said, that the boundaries kept changing?
Wasn't the Tsar's hunting lodge in Poland where Alexei was hurt (Spala) under Russian rule?
-
Isn't that what she said, that the boundaries kept changing?
They did not KEPT changing - it's not true that "the borders were changing all the time" and that "many parts of Poland OFTEN would become parts of Russia and then change again". Poland was partitioned by the end od 17th century then reemerged in 1918.
Wasn't the Tsar's hunting lodge in Poland where Alexei was hurt (Spala) under Russian rule?
Yes it was - continuously since the begining of 18th century (till 1918 of course)
Remember we are talking about Bytów district which hadn't been within polish boundaries since 1657 befor it was incorporated into Polad in 1945
-
<<< Whether AA spoke Kashubian or Polish is not important in this matter. Both are Slavic languages; if Kashubian is a separate language or a Polish dialect is also uninteresting in this matter. The Slavic languages is a language group of about 15 languages. It is usually divided into east, west and south Slavic languages. However, the value of this division on a linguistic basis is disputable, since the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous. The differences between them are significant but not overwhelming. >>>
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, this statement is simply not true. Various of the Slavic languages are close to unintelligible to one another, i.e., they are separate and distinct languages, all descended from Slavonic. French and Romanian are Latin languages: Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.
I agree with Versoix - saying that "the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous" is ridiculous. They may seem homogeneous for non-Slavonic people. For Slavonic people Latin languages may seem "rather homogeneous". (BTW for many white people Chinese, Korean or Japan people are all alike ;) ) Division into east, west and south Slavic languages is not insignificant - eg. Poles do not understant Bulgarians nor Croatians (I'm not speaking about understanding seperate words or GUESSING general subject of speach/text). To claim that diffrences between Kashubian nad Russian are "significant but not overwhelming" is not more reasonabale than the claim that differences between French and Portuguese "are significant but not overwhelming"...
-
EPHMOC, what is the purpose of all these things you are posting? Are you saying that Andersen wasn't Schanskowska and was the Grand Duchess Anastasia?
-
FIRST POST:
In response to a post from Annie on one of these threads a few days ago, I said I would draw up a list of people who testified that Anna Anderson/Fraulein Unbekannt was entirely and fluently conversant in Russia. I am still compiling a general list of those people, but in the meantime, here is a shorter list. Just three people. All of them came out in opposition to Anna Anderson, yet all of them testified that she spoke and understood Russian:
Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna
Princess Nina Georgievna of Russia
Pierre Gilliard
So there you go, Annie -- and I went you one better by giving you three people who didn't recognize AA as AN, yet testified that she understood and spoke Russian. So is your contention now that Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard are liars, or is it your contention that they were somehow mistaken? And if either of these, what does that say about
their veracity regarding their claims about the case in general?
It is believed by some that AA could speak Russian.
It is believed by some that FS did not know Russian.
It is said that FS's first lanuage was Kashubian and later when she entered school, FS was required to speak Low German.
It is said that AA spoke High German, which is different than Low German. In that period of time, the Royals were taught High German which had been recently adopted by the universities in hopes to drive one dialect of German in order to nationaize communication among the educated and hopefully among all Germans who spoke many dialects [Low, Middle, and High landers to name just the three main dialects).
I believe this conversation has turned to learning the differences of the lanuages FS spoke or is thought she could have spoken.
There are other threads to discuss who thinks or do not think FS is AA so let us not get bogged down with what you believe in this thread.
This area of Posen is a complex one and little understood by most and can be concieved differently due to assumptions and not actuality.
AGRBear
-
What does EPHMOC stand for and in what language?
-
EPHMOC, what is the purpose of all these things you are posting? Are you saying that Andersen wasn't Schanskowska and was the Grand Duchess Anastasia?
I think EPHMOC - as a Pole - is trying to give us some inside knowledge about the language and the area and thixs specialist knowledge is very useful so I would like to say thank you to him/her.
Even if AA was FS -(who apparently didn't even speak much Polish) she still wouldn't have been able to understand Russian that well. English is derived from Frisian but I can't understand more than a word or two of that!
-
The question of languages is very interesting. I studied Czech at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA. Here are a few things I'd like to add:
1. You are a gifted linguist or not. To get into the school you take a test which utilizes a false language. Based on your score you are accepted and then assigned a Catagory of Language. CAT IV languages are Arabic, Chinese, Korean because they are tonal, a word can be pronounced with different emphasis on a syllable and have a different meaning making these a very challenging 2d language. CAT III are the slavic languages, Czech, Polish, Russian, etc. and German. I can't remember the others but I believe the CAT II were the Romance Languages, French, Italian, Spanish.
2. The difficulty of a language contributes to how proficient you become and your natural ability.
3. Czech, Russian and Polish have some words that are similiar just like Spanish, Italian and French have similar words. If you learn one language in a Catagory its much easier to learn another in that same catagory. To a nonspeaker Czech and Russian can sound very similar but Polish is much "swishier" and distinct.
4. Once you have a second language it is much easier to pick up a third or to understand it. I can easily see how someone who spoke Polish could be asked a question in Russian and understand it but not be able to reply in Russian.
From my experience with linguists, you had people who were naturally gifted with languages and those (like me) who weren't and struggled to get proficient.
As this relates to AA and FS, I think it just depends on if they were naturally gifted with languages. I also worked at Disney World in High School and managed to pick up enough Spanish to take orders etc just by being exposed to the language and with no training. I would imagine if you were growing up in Poland at different times you were probably exposed to Russian and to German as well as the native language and could pick up quite a bit.
-
EPHMOC, what is the purpose of all these things you are posting? Are you saying that Andersen wasn't Schanskowska and was the Grand Duchess Anastasia?
I'm affraid you are a bit oversensitive ;). My aim is to correct some inaccuracies and mistakes in same statements i've read here... No more, no less...
-
This area of Posen is a complex one and little understood by most and can be concieved differently due to assumptions and not actuality.
Are we talking about "area of Posen"? It depends on what you mean by "area of (a city)". Of course, from US point of view (or other huge country) Berlin is also in "the area of Posen", but from Central European perspective we should be more precise... Borowy Las is rather in the area of Gdańsk (Danzig) - not only for geographical reasons, but also cultural end ethical...
The region of Posen (Wielkopolska, eng. Greater Poland) has different history and ethnical background than Pomerania...
-
I would imagine if you were growing up in Poland at different times you were probably exposed to Russian and to German as well as the native language and could pick up quite a bit.
I agree, but I must say that it depends on which region of Poland we are talking about. If you were living in central Poland (Mazowsze), you were exposed to Russain, because that region was a part of Russia in 19th century. But Pomerania (Bytów district) was a fief of Brandemburg (since 1656) then a part of Prussia (since 1773) - people living there were exposed to German, not to Russian...
-
I think EPHMOC - as a Pole - is trying to give us some inside knowledge about the language and the area and thixs specialist knowledge is very useful so I would like to say thank you to him/her.
I'm at your service... ;)
Even if AA was FS -(who apparently didn't even speak much Polish) she still wouldn't have been able to understand Russian that well. English is derived from Frisian but I can't understand more than a word or two of that!
Even if AA was FS - we should not "take a shortcut" in our reasoning...;)
-
What does EPHMOC stand for and in what language?
"desert", "lonely" in (Ancient) Greek...
Borowy Las is rather in the area of Gdańsk (Danzig) - not only for geographical reasons, but also cultural end ethical...
The region of Posen (Wielkopolska, eng. Greater Poland) has different history and ethnical background than Pomerania...
I meant ETHNIC not ETHICAL of course.. ;) Sorry for that...
-
As I have explained. The area which FS lived did not use Russian or Polish in their schools and general living activities. It was an area where German was used. This does not mean other lanuages where not used in a family home or among family or a person's community. FS's family was Kashubian. In their home they spoke Kashubian. Among their family they probably spoke Kashubian. Once FS started school, the students were required to speak German. Why? German was what was used in this area under the rule of Prussia. Let me repeat. German is what was used in the schools, govt. business etc. etc. in that area.
When FS left for Berlin, it is believed, by her brother Felix, that FS did not know Russian or Polish, accept for perhaps a few words. Felix and FS's family spoke Low German.
She entered Berlin in 1914 before the beginning of WWI.
Does anyone have any information about FS's life between 1914 and March of 1920 which tells us that FS learned High German, proper Russian or Polish or French or English?
AGRBear
AGRBear
-
As I have explained. The area which FS lived did not use Russian or Polish in their schools and general living activities. It was an area where German was used. This does not mean other lanuages where not used in a family home or among family or a person's community. FS's family was Kashubian. In their home they spoke Kashubian. Among their family they probably spoke Kashubian. Once FS started school, the students were required to speak German. Why? German was what was used in this area under the rule of Prussia. Let me repeat. German is what was used in the schools, govt. business etc. etc. in that area.
I totally agree with that. Let me ask some additional questions. You siad that FS's family was Kashubian. But do you know if her mother's family was also Kashubian? How long Schanzkowskis lived in Borowy Las? Where did they came from? Do we know anything about ethinc and geographic roots of Wisceks?
-
In a small community as it sounds this particular village and those surrounding villages were a cluster of Kashubian and beause it is said that FS first lanuage was Kashubian, then it is possible that FS's mother was, also, Kashubian. When looking just at her surname Wiscek, it has the same feel as Schankowska. It seems to have German roots which has been changed to appear Polish. Wiscek, if a particular German family , was orginal spelled Korab changed to changed to Wojeik and changed to Wiscek. I suspect that in this case they were Korab family to moved to the area of Wojeik. This one particular family has a German and a Polish coat-of-arms. You can find them by entering in goggle the word "wappen".
I do not know, nowever, if FS's mother was a member of the "Korab" group.
It is not uncommon for the "poor cousin" to carry the inherited names and titles and, in the Korab family the coat -of-arms are written in Prussian and Polish records as "Wojcik" which seem to have taken up a more standard spelling. So Wiscek is a name which may not look the same but when spoken sound the same (soundex).
There appears to be a three places in East Prussia known as "Wojcik".
All my research has not realy produced much else about the Wojcik/ Wiscek family to which FS's mother was a part. About the only thing I can tell by records in the Posen is that the family was Roman Catholic. The name can be found in larger clusters in Prussia [which is now part of Poland] and Silesia.
AGRBear
-
When looking just at her surname Wiscek, it has the same feel as Schankowska. It seems to have German roots which has been changed to appear Polish.
Intresting, but why do you think so?
Wiscek, if a particular German family , was orginal spelled Korab changed to changed to Wojeik and changed to Wiscek. I suspect that in this case they were Korab family to moved to the area of Wojeik. This one particular family has a German and a Polish coat-of-arms.
I know this coat-of-arms -- more than 150 families (mailny in Wielkopolska) were entitled to use Korab (pol. (dat.) "ship" from latin "carabus") as their coat-of-arms - among them: Wojciechowski, Wojsanowski, Wojsławski, Woyciechowski, Woyszycki, Wójcik - common polish name! - [and Sęczkowski (sounds like Szanckowski !)]. But it seems (and sounds) to me, that they have rather Slavic root (woj-), not German...
Korab seems rather the coat of arms, but not the original SPELLING of Wójcik, Wojeik or Wiscek...
... in the Korab family the coat -of-arms are written in Prussian and Polish records as "Wojcik" which seem to have taken up a more standard spelling. So Wiscek is a name which may not look the same but when spoken sound the same (soundex).
They do NOT sound the same in Polish ;) Soundex is not a perfect tool - e.g. SAN SOUCI and SZANCKOWSKI do NOT sound the same ;) It sounds similar (at most)
All my research has not realy produced much else about the Wojcik/ Wiscek family to which FS's mother was a part. About the only thing I can tell by records in the Posen is that the family was Roman Catholic. The name can be found in larger clusters in Prussia [which is now part of Poland] and Silesia.
Wojcik is Posen rather than Kashubian name... So it seems that FS's mother might NOT be Kashubian...
-
>>Wiscek, if a particular German family , was orginal spelled Korab changed to changed to Wojeik and changed to Wiscek. I suspect that in this case they were Korab family to moved to the area of Wojeik. This one particular family has a German and a Polish coat-of-arms.<<
That's strange this line seems to have a word missing. It should read:
>>Wiscek, if a particular German family , was orginal spelled Korab changed to Schuschke changed to Wojeik and changed to Wiscek. I suspect that in this case they were Korab family to moved to the area of Wojeik. This one particular family has a German and a Polish coat-of-arms.
"Schuschke" is missing.
Wiscek / Wojcik is a place name, therefore, it should relate to Posen or Silesian areas.
I did not research the name "Korab" .
Since we are told the first lanuage of FS was Kasubian, I assume both parents spoke the lanuage in the home. This does not mean that FS's mother was Kasubian, however, she spoke it. If the mother had not, then the children would have spoken a mixed lanuage of Kasubian and Polish if the mother's family was Polish. Or the children would have spoken a mixed lanuage of Kasubian and German [probably Low German] if the mother was German. But this isn't what we've been told.
What do you think?
AGRBear
-
Wiscek / Wojcik is a place name, therefore, it should relate to Posen or Silesian areas.
Wojcik is nowadays most popular in Central (Mazowsze - most Polish Wójciks are living there) and South Poland (esp. Lublin region (most common surname there!), Silesia and Małopolska). Few of Wojciks are living in Posen region...
Why do you think that Wójcik is a place name? As far as I know Wójcik is one of the oldest (and most popular) Polish surnames and it's NOT derived from a name of a place, but from given name "Wojciech" or nouns "wojak" or "wójt" (occupations). Wójciks were entitled to use many coat of arms. Korab Wójciks were living mainly in Łęczyca district (52°03'N 19°12'E) in Central Poland (between Warsaw and Posen, near Łodź). Even today most polish Wójciks are living there...
It seems to me that you were wrong - Wiscek is NOT a root of Wójcik, but its germanised version... (It's probable that form Wojeik was an effect of misspelling in Wójcik - "c" was changed to "e" - they look so similar in handwriting...)
I did not research the name "Korab" .
Korab is name of a coat of arm derived form a golden SHIP with a watchtower on red field... (old portuguese caravela(="caravel") form latin cáravo form greek kárabos(="beetle")...)
See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Herb_Korab.PNG
So "Korab" in NOT ethymologically connected with "Wójcik"...
Since we are told the first lanuage of FS was Kasubian, I assume both parents spoke the lanuage in the home. This does not mean that FS's mother was Kasubian, however, she spoke it. If the mother had not, then the children would have spoken a mixed lanuage of Kasubian and Polish if the mother's family was Polish. Or the children would have spoken a mixed lanuage of Kasubian and German [probably Low German] if the mother was German. [...] What do you think?
I think that FS's mother family could have Polish roots (it seems very probable to me, esp. because she was a Korab Wójcik/Wiscek) but albo had been very germinised at the time when Marinna was born... If she came form Posen it's not very probable that she spoke Kashubian (as the first language)... More probable hypothesis is that she was a germanised woman of Polish descent. If she spoke German and Polish, she could easily learn Kashubian (or speak only German or Polish to her children)... Polish descent of Marianna could explain why FS spoke "a little Polish"...
Of course, it's only a hypothesis...
-
It seems to me that you were wrong - Wiscek is NOT a root of Wójcik, but its germanised version...
You've actually wrote that Wojcik/Wojeik changed to Wiscek. Sorry for that...
But do you know anything about relation between Wiscek and Więcek family name (popular mostly in Upper Silesia and Lesser Poland) or Wicek (most common in Gdańsk)?
By the way - do you know that quite a few Szankowskis are living in Kujawy (southern Pomerania)?
-
Jermaine, if you're going to bring up languages, you must also consider the language evidence AGAINST her. There is really no documented proof she spoke or was even competant in Russian, did anyone ever give her a school type test? Even during the lenghty trial? She knew absolutely no French, and her English was atrocious. She seemed to have learned all these bits and pieces of languages as her claim accelerated, probably with the help of supporters a la 'My Fair Lady.' German seemed to be her most fluent language. We also don't know if all of those reports from individuals- which is really all we have- are truthful or accurate. If you believe them all, and you're making a list, you should also consider Felix Yussopov saying he spoke to her in English, Russian, French and German and she only responded to the German, and the people who swore they heard her yell out in Polish in a church in Virginia in her old age. There's just way too much he said she said for me for the language thing to hold much water either way.
If we were using languages to contradict her being AN, I could post a lot more.
I have question for you though, if you don't think she was FS, why did her DNA match FS's nephew with 99.9% certainty? Why did FS vanish, never to be found again, in the same time and place as AA appeared? How can you explain how she closely resembles the picture of FS? Don't you think there's quite a bit of evidence she was FS, and nothing to really discount it?
-
Personally, I've never bought the whole story of AA being Anastasia. The first photos of AA don't look like AN to me, better yet I
I also believe that AA could speak Russian, but refused to on demmand.
Mrs Manahan may have understood some Russian, but her "refusal" to return conversations in Russian pointed towards her inadequacy in the use of a language that was not her mother tongue.
Other people seem to enjoy offering excuses on her behalf why that lady refused to converse in Russian. Unfortunately they refuse to understand the obvious. The lady lived a lie that others had created for her, while others today enjoy perpetuating the same.
Margarita
-
Personally, I've never bought the whole story of AA being Anastasia. The first photos of AA don't look like AN to me, better yet I
I also believe that AA could speak Russian, but refused to on demmand.
Mrs Manahan may have understood some Russian, but her "refusal" to return conversations in Russian pointed towards her inadequacy in the use of a language that was not her mother tongue.
Other people seem to enjoy offering excuses on her behalf why that lady refused to converse in Russian. Unfortunately they refuse to understand the obvious. The lady lived a lie that others had created for her, while others today enjoy perpetuating the same.
Margarita
I believe, during the process of AA's trial, one or more judges went to AA and conversed with her in the languages which GD Anastasia was said to have known. This included Russian. The judge/ judges found her ability to understand proper Russian was acceptable. I don't recall if she answered in Russian or High German. If it was good enough for the judge/ judges, why do some of you continue to have doubts?
And, the one nurse, who've I've mention many times on other threads, was a German-Russian, who and migr. to Berlin area and was working in Dalldorf, spoke to AA in Russian. AA did speak to her in Russian. And, it was the nurse's opinion that AA knew proper Russian. Why was the nurse an execllent witness? Because she taught Russian while living in Russia. Remember she was a Russian, with German heritage. Also, this nurse knew Russia and it's politics. They spoke often about the news and the nurse was impressed about AA's knowledge. AND, she repeated all of this in AA's trial. And, as far as I know, no one discredited this woman's testimony.
So, we have a witness back in 1921 and we have the German judge/ judges during the trial.....
Please remember, I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. But facts are facts. And, so, it seems, somewhere at sometime AA learned proper Russian.
AGRBear
-
I have question for you though, if you don't think she was FS, why did her DNA match FS's nephew with 99.9% certainty? Why did FS vanish, never to be found again, in the same time and place as AA appeared? How can you explain how she closely resembles the picture of FS? Don't you think there's quite a bit of evidence she was FS, and nothing to really discount it?
There are threads where I and other posters have discussed or thoughts.
Here, we are talking about AA and the Russian language, which she seemed to have known well enough to have convinced the judge/ judges during her court case and a nurse at Dalldorf.
AGRBear
-
I think AA probably understood the Russian language, but couldn't speak it.
-
Then you don't believe the people who claimed AA talked to them in proper Russian?
AGRBear
-
Then you don't believe the people who claimed AA talked to them in proper Russian?
AGRBear
Who exactly heard AA speak Russian other than that lady in the asulym who said she spoke it in her sleep?
-
This is what Penny Wilson wrote when Annie asked this queston:
In response to a post from Annie on one of these threads a few days ago, I said I would draw up a list of people who testified that Anna Anderson/Fraulein Unbekannt was entirely and fluently conversant in Russia. I am still compiling a general list of those people, but in the meantime, here is a shorter list. Just three people. All of them came out in opposition to Anna Anderson, yet all of them testified that she spoke and understood Russian:
Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna
Princess Nina Georgievna of Russia
Pierre Gillia... [ in part]....
So there you go, Annie -- and I went you one better by giving you three people who didn't recognize AA as AN, yet testified that she understood and spoke Russian. So is your contention now that Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard are liars, or is it your contention that they were somehow mistaken? And if either of these, what does that say about
their veracity regarding their claims about the case in general?
AGRBear
-
.... [in part]...
I got this information from the trial transcripts. As for your other questions, I would imagine the answers are now self-evident.
Olga Alexandrovna:
Questioned by Judge Backen in Toronto, June 11, 1959
Backen: While you were with the plaintiff, in what language did you converse?
OA: German.
Backen: Did you ask if she spoke Russian?
OA: Of course, but she apparently did not wish to do so. Backen: Did she not speak Russian at all during your interview?
OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard, but would say no more.
Backen: And was her Russian grammatical?
OA: Yes.
Backen: She said no more in Russian other than a few sentences to Madame Gilliard?
OA: No. She understood the language, as she answered questions posed to her in Russian in German but, despite my requests, she would not converse with any of us in Russian.
Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 38
Gilliard:
Questioned by Judge Werkmeister of the Hamburg Tribunal, 1 April, 1958
Werkmeister: During your meetings with the Plantiff, what languages were used?
Gilliard: German.
Werkmeister: Only German?
Gilliard: Well, some English.
Werkmeister: And nothing more?
Gilliard. No, it's as I wrote in my book [Gilliard had brought with him a copy of his "La Fausse Anastasie"].
Werkmeister: Again, Monsieur Gilliard, the material in your book is not evidence.
Gilliard: But it's what happened.
Werkmeister: And what of the information presented by Dr. Vermehren [Accounts of the meetings, including letters from Danish Ambassador Herluf Zahle that declared AA had spoken in English and in Russian] on this issue?
Gilliard: I don't recall.
Werkmeister: Please try to recall, Monsieur. Is the evidence presented by Dr. Vermehren on the issue of languages spoken accurate or inaccurate?
Gilliard: She might have replied to my wife in Russian.
Werkmeister: To your wife?
Gilliard: Yes. During a conversation with the Grand Duchess [Olga Alexandrovna] the claimant interrupted and said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In Russian?
Gilliard: It has been so long ago...
Werkmeister: Did the Plaintiff say something to your wife in Russian or not, Monsieur?
Gilliard: A sentence perhaps.
Werkmeister: You understand, Monsieur, that the claim has been made that the Plaintiff could not speak Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: And is this claim accurate or not?
Gilliard: As I wrote in my book....
Werkmeister: Monsieur, I remind you again, your book is not evidence in this case.
Gilliard: She said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In what language?
Gilliard: In Russian.
Werkmeister: You heard the Plaintiff speak to your wife in Russian?
Gilliard: Only a sentence.
Werkmeister: But you heard this?
Gilliard: Yes. But she would not again speak it.
Werkmeister: You have previously stated, Monsieur, that the Plaintiff did not speak or understand Russian. Do you wish to amend your previous statement?
Gilliard: No.
Werkmeister: Monsieur, may I remind you that you are under oath? I again ask if you wish to correct your previous statement?
Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife. I do not consider that linguistic ability.
Werkmeister: We are not going to argue semantics, Monsieur. I believe that portions of the conversation in question took place in Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: And the Plaintiff did not engage in this conversation?
Gilliard: She would answer certain questions posed her, but only in German.
Werkmeister: Were these questions posed in Russian, or in German?
Gilliard: Both languages.
Werkmeister: Did the Plaintiff answer questions posed her in Russian in German?
Gilliard: That is so.
Werkmeister: And you say she answered these questions?
Gilliard: Only in German.
Werkmeister: But they were posed her in Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: So she understand Russian?
Gilliard: She would not speak it.
Werkmeister: That is not the question, Monsieur, and you have already conceded that she spoke it with your wife. Now, did she understand the Russian language?
Gilliard: Yes.
Source:
Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 27.
Princess Nina Georgievna:
"Whoever she is, she is no Polish peasant. She is a lady of good society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."
Source: Princess Nina to Peter Kurth, as quoted in Kurth, 217.
But again, it doesn't matter whether Franziska Schanskowska spoke what language or not, she still wasn't Anastasia.
Moving the goal-posts, Annie? You keep repeating that Fraulein Unbekannt/Anna Anderson could not speak or understand Russian -- which would be an item held in common with Franziska Schanzkowska, and therefore a "point" for your "side." I have now shown this assertion not to be true, and the truth came from people who denied the claim.
You really shouldn't make these continued incorrect assertions about AA when you haven't even done the basic work of reading through the Hamburg transcripts -- which are able to disprove so much of what you contend.
-
Hi Penny,
This is the first time I have read this court transcript. I have a few questions regarding the extract which you have presented here.
Hi, Belochka! :) See my various responses below...
a. "OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard"
compare to:
b. "Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife. I do not consider that linguistic ability."
Was this variation in detail given by these two witnesses tested further in Court?
No-nothing is mentioned in the transcript, but I only read through and translated from German the most relevant portions, so it might have been pursued later.
OA did not clearly state (in this transcript extract) that she personally heard Russian spoken in her presence, unless both OA and Madame Gilliard were together in the same room. This is unclear here.
They were-in the context of the transcript-it refers to Olga's visit with AA with the Gilliards.
A few lines further down OA does stipulate that only German was spoken in OA's presence.
And Russian-both in questions asked and in the remarks to Shura.
My other questions are:
Are you able to provide a Court transcript which provides:
1. The specific sentence "she" addressed?
Maybe, but I doubt it. I would have to look but I don't believe it is mentioned in this context. There might be references in other materials.
2. The precise Russian words that "she" used to reply?
Ditto.
The length of the query and its reply would not necessarily provide evidence of good linguistic usage, a fact which Gilliard correctlly alluded to.
The expression used by the speaker would indicate the education and social standing of the user, including the city where they learnt Russian. If the language was acquired outside of Russia, or was not the user's primary language, it would be quickly identified by an educated intellectual Russian native speaker from SPb of the day.
Comprehension of a language does not merit fluency in the language.
Agreed. My point is to correct the canard that is continually repeated that AA never spoke or understood Russian -- clearly, she did both. This, coupled with the depositions of more than a dozen parties who stated that she spoke Russian, should end the issue.
Were any of these dialectical issues addressed by the Court?
At great length, but I don't recall where or in what volume they are.
From what you kindly presented here, on balance it cannot not be read that "she" was fluent in Russian.
Again, my point is that the continued assertions that she could not speak or understand Russian is false; I consider these statements, along with the statements of many more (like the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who conversed with her in Russian and was convinced that, whoever she was, she was a lady of good Russian society), to be evidence that she WAS fluent in Russian. Given the number of statements and the wide variety of those involved-including many who did not support her claim-I think the most weight has to be given to the belief that she was fluent.
What I would like, now, is to ask those who contend she could not speak Russian, or could not understand it, to post rebuttals. I am only interested in the statements of those who met her, not second-hand assertions. So I await that list. Please provide sources as I have done, so that their accuracy can be analyzed.
It could only be inferred that there was some form of understanding of the spoken language.
Finally,
Was "she" asked to write any random words in Russian before the Court?
This happened frequently, and many examples exist in the court records-page after page of her Russian. We even have some of these. To obtain a better selection, the Court looked at a number of samples, including letters, postcards, etc., that spanned a number of years, including the 1920s. These were analyzed by both handwriting experts, who concluded that AA's writing matched that of Anastasia, and linguistic experts, who found no errors or
mistakes.
Thanks for posting the Court Transcripts.
Your replies to these questions will be appreciated. :)
No problem! I hope that my answers have been helpful...
-
Repeating Penny's information because Penny's posts have some of the answers you've been asking.
Penny is the one who started this thread because so many of us had questions about AA's abilit to understand and speak Russian.
AGRBear
-
Thanks AGRBear. But what I don't understand is if she knew so much Russian, why did she not speak it at the one time she appeared at court?
-
Thanks AGRBear. But what I don't understand is if she knew so much Russian, why did she not speak it at the one time she appeared at court?
I believe Peter Kurth or someone else who knew her has already told us and a poster can send me the source and I'll be happy to post what AA said and the source.
AGRBear
-
The story about FS/Anna Anderson speaking Polish relates to a lecture she attended at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts on Faberge, She was there with John Manahan. During the lecture she started loudly talking in Polish and the whole room could hear her. There were several native Poles there and they said she was obviously a native Polish speaker. This should not surprise anyone because FS/Anna was Polish.
Anna Anderson would not have a conversation in Russian with native speakers who could expose her. She never spoke Russian with Gleb Botkin and this troubled even him. The truth is obvious.
The Romanov family told me there were was more evidence that convinced them that FS/Anna was not a daughter of the Tsar. I have posted this before but when Olga entered the chapel of the hospital with FS/Anna she crossed herself instinctively like the Catholic FS/Anna was. No Orthodox person would have done this Olga said. Also, the family was having the family dentist visit FS/Anna in the same hospital to check her teeth against the teeth of Anastasia. Is it any surprise that FS/Anna suddenly had all her teeth pulled when she knew he was coming? There's more. I wish the family had published all of this. I suppose they felt sorry for her and they thought it was beneath their dignity to be involved with or validate this con anymore than they had to.
Bob
-
Bob - why on earth would Anna Anderson, or whoever she was, suddenly begin to speak in Polish at a lecture at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts? Obviously she could not have realised there were native Polish speakers in the company, otherwise she would not have run the risk of unmasking herself. But in an English speaking country and in the company of her English speaking husband, why would she speak 'loudly' in Polish?
I simply cannot understand why a practised pretender would make such a slip up. It just does not make sense.
Anna Anderson (?) did understand the Russian language - and complex sentences at that. That is an established fact. Equally, it is true, she did not speak Russian.
When exploring the myth of AN/AA, it is necessary to admit that there have been some extraordinary coincidences. Glossing over or refuting these coincidences, can only promote and perpetuate the myth.
tsaria
-
... I have posted this before but when Olga entered the chapel of the hospital with FS/Anna she crossed herself instinctively like the Catholic FS/Anna was. No Orthodox person would have done this Olga said.
Bob
Crossing oneself when entering any Orthodox Church with the right hand "right to left" becomes an instictive process learned from very early childhood.
If the lady was Orthodox she would never have crossed herself any other way, even if I am permitted to say, inside any Catholic Church. The ritual is too psychologically ingrained in mature adults no matter how ill they are.
Margarita :)
-
Bob - why on earth would Anna Anderson, or whoever she was, suddenly begin to speak in Polish at a lecture at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts? Obviously she could not have realised there were native Polish speakers in the company, otherwise she would not have run the risk of unmasking herself. But in an English speaking country and in the company of her English speaking husband, why would she speak 'loudly' in Polish?
I simply cannot understand why a practised pretender would make such a slip up. It just does not make sense.
Anna Anderson (?) did understand the Russian language - and complex sentences at that. That is an established fact. Equally, it is true, she did not speak Russian.
When exploring the myth of AN/AA, it is necessary to admit that there have been some extraordinary coincidences. Glossing over or refuting these coincidences, can only promote and perpetuate the myth.
tsaria
Well, FS didn't even speak Polish in the younger years, so she must have picked it up in adulthood. ;)What I don't understand is why people have to keep circulating these stories which are not verified at all instead of just pointing to the only proof that is needed- DNA. And the dentist was never going to come see AA's teeth. Someone brought him photos and all he said was, "I never would have left one of my patient's teeth in this condition." That is not the same as "going to examine her teeth to compare them to the real Anastasia."
-
Sorry, Martyr, I got that DIRECT from Ksenia's Granddaughter and DIRECT from the person who gave the lecture (who speaks fluent Russian as well). They are facts not 'stories'.
-
Tsaria:
The lecturer was very surprised. It was a strange scene I don't remember what she was saying in Polish but I was told FS/Anna was disturbed and 'out of it' - senile - and what provoked it - I don't know.
Bob
-
Tsaria:
The lecturer was very surprised. It was a strange scene I don't remember what she was saying in Polish but I was told FS/Anna was disturbed and 'out of it' - senile - and what provoked it - I don't know.
Bob
Her mental guard was down it seems and her real self finally emerged in public.
It is not unknown that senile multilingual people can revert to their original mother tongue without any provacation.
Margarita ;)
-
For what its worth, the person giving the Faberge lecture is considered one of the world's experts on the subject. Bob is not willing to disclose their name, to protect their privacy at this time...
I myself have heard Romanov descendants' stories about why AA was not AN, from them first hand. Including those who had known Anastasia Nicholaievna as a child who Anna Manahan REFUSED to see. Why, of course would the genuine AN refuse to see her genuine blood relatives, who wanted to believe it was her? As Judge Judy says, "if it makes no sense, it isn't true."
-
... Including those who had known Anastasia Nicholaievna as a child who Anna Manahan REFUSED to see. Why, of course would the genuine AN refuse to see her genuine blood relatives, who wanted to believe it was her? As Judge Judy says, "if it makes no sense, it isn't true."
Why indeed? (Except the obvious!!!!! ::) EXPOSURE of course.)
I agree with Judge Judy - a very wise and amiable lady (I wish she was back on TV here).
Margarita :)
-
Tsaria:
The lecturer was very surprised. It was a strange scene I don't remember what she was saying in Polish but I was told FS/Anna was disturbed and 'out of it' - senile - and what provoked it - I don't know.
Bob
For what its worth, the person giving the Faberge lecture is considered one of the world's experts on the subject. Bob is not willing to disclose their name, to protect their privacy at this time...
.... [in part]]...
FS first lanuage was Kashubian and didn't speak Polish before she left for Berlin in 1914, atleast, that is what FS's brother claimed. Yes, he did say she knew a sprinkle of words which were probably simple words like "thank you" ...... So when did FS learn Polish in Berlin? Did the Wingender's live in or near by a Polish community? Did she work in a Polish restaurant as a waitress? Maybe a friend from the factory was Polish....? I honestly do not know the answer. Do you?
I doubt AA learn Polish after her claim. There was no reason for AA to learn Polish from 1920 to the time she was present at the Faberge lecture. And, yet, according to this person or persons, AA spewed out words in Polish like she were bred, born and lived Polish... at the lecture.
It seems to me that if AA was FS then in her stage pf senility, FS wold have disturbed everyone at the lecture with Kashubian not Polish.
Since I don't believe AA was GD Anastasia, and, I'm not convinced that AA was FS, I find this Polish outburst of AA's another "contradiction" of her being FS so that is why this contradiction has been part of my list of differences between FS and AA sometime ago when this "outburst" was mentioned.
AGRBear
-
The story about FS/Anna Anderson speaking Polish relates to a lecture she attended at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts on Faberge, She was there with John Manahan. During the lecture she started loudly talking in Polish and the whole room could hear her. There were several native Poles there and they said she was obviously a native Polish speaker. This should not surprise anyone because FS/Anna was Polish.
Does anyone know, what she said then?
-
The story about FS/Anna Anderson speaking Polish relates to a lecture she attended at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts on Faberge, She was there with John Manahan. During the lecture she started loudly talking in Polish and the whole room could hear her. There were several native Poles there and they said she was obviously a native Polish speaker. This should not surprise anyone because FS/Anna was Polish.
Does anyone know, what she said then?
I do not know, but Franziska probably spoke Kashubianas her native language because that was her ethnicity . Imprecisely, Kashubian is at times described as a "Polish dialect". It is equally likely she had a strong understanding of Polish because she grew up in an area where there were Germans, Poles, and Kashubians.
Since her speaking was called senile, what she said is probably not as important as the language in which she was saying it.
-
Since her speaking was called senile, what she said is probably not as important as the language in which she was saying it.
It could be important, because some words in Kashubian and Polish are similar... Maybe she said something in Kashubian, not in Polish. Of course, if you still wonder, if AA was FS or AN, it is not imaportant at all... I just wonder, if FS spoke Polish, or not...
-
Interestingly, Kashubian is not only distinct from most other Slavic languages because of heavy (Low) German influence, but also because it's the only living Slavic language that haven't gone through the so-called metathesis of liquid consonants (r and l), i.e. proto-Slavic or Indo-European gord, town, castle, turning into grad or gorod or bard turning into brada or boroda. (The forms with the consonant shifting forwards being West or South Slavic, the forms with a vowel between every consonant being East Slavic.) In Kashubian (and the extinct Slavic languages spoken further west in Germany) it stayed gart and bart, very similar to German, e. g. Gart(en) and Bart. Thence such typical Pomerian names like Stargard, Barth etc.
-
I'm not convinced that AA was FS
Didn't they do a DNA test with one of FS's relatives. It matched that of AA's.
-
They did. It showed a close maternal relationship of only 2 generations at most.
-
As I understand it from reading King & Wilson's book on the subject, the test compared AA's DNA with that of FS's great-nephew (I don't have the book to hand) through the female line, and there was a match. Some of those doubting that AA and FS were the same person have claimed that FS's father married twice and FS and the great-nephew's mother had different mothers. However, if that were correct, this would not produce a false positive match but simply a non-match.
Personally, I'm happy to accept that AA and FS were the same person. It probably helps that I was an AA sceptic from the beginning. What I do find vastly interesting is that AA managed to fool so many people, by no means all of them credulous by nature. The arguments over her language ability are just one manifestation.
To my mind, AA's refusal to speak Russian, even if she did understand it, is damning, along with the rest of the lengthy list of facts which went against her (most notably the escape story itself, which has as many holes as a colander). And that is before we get to the DNA.
Ann
-
most notably the escape story itself, which has as many holes as a colander
Funny metaphor, considering that a colander is durszlak in Polish (дуршлаг in Russian, dørslag in Danish), from German Durchschlag.
And that colander evidently is cognate with couloir, as in the Polish Corridor.
How very Kashubian!
-
Interesting! I take it you mean 'funny' in the sense of 'amusing', rather than 'strange', as it's a fairly standard one in English-English.
Ann
-
Interesting! I take it you mean 'funny' in the sense of 'amusing', rather than 'strange'
Yes, indeed!
Very funny, очень забавно!
-
Didn't AA have some silly excuse that the trauma of the murders made her forget how to speak Russian?
-
That, or it made her not want to speak Russian, was her excuse, as it was the last language they heard in the Ipatiev house.
-
Of course, the real reason was that AA didn't know that much Russian to begin with.
-
Precisely. This implausible excuse is but one reason why my main interest in AA is why so many people believed in her for so long.
Ann
-
As Agent Mulder so put it: I want to believe.
So many wanted to believe that at least one of the IF survived, they were willing to embrace anyone. Under close scrutiny, AA's claim falls like a house of cards, but so many WANTED to believe she was Anastasia, they were willing to overlook the discrepancies in her story.
-
Good analogy with the x-files!
Wonder how she explained away her lack of English in the 1920s as well. Maybe a guard at Ipatiev said something in English too.
-
Yes I also thought it was amusing she had very limited English as well. Which as we know the IF did talk in English frequently.
-
In western Ukraine, both languages are a must. Ukrainian because it is the national language and western Ukrainians are very nationalistic, and Russian because it is the business language.
-
I wonder why that didn't expose AA. The real Anastasia spoke English fluently. AA could barely manage it.
-
AA's poor English was the deciding factor for me. There was a programme on the BBC in the 1990s narrated by Prince Michael of Kent, which included a recording of an interview with her. To a native English speaker there was no possibility that she could have grown up speaking English. There is a recording from the 1990s of the Kaiser being interviewed on Dutch radio in English. By contrast, he sounded entirely at home in English, and the only giveaway was being unable to manage our -the sound.
Admittedly, i
-
AA's poor English was the deciding factor for me. There was a programme on the BBC in the 1990s narrated by Prince Michael of Kent, which included a recording of an interview with her. To a native English speaker there was no possibility that she could have grown up speaking English. There is a recording from the 1990s of the Kaiser being interviewed on Dutch radio in English. By contrast, he sounded entirely at home in English, and the only giveaway was being unable to manage our -the sound.
Admittedly, i
Is that interview of the Kaiser speaking English publically available ? I imagine he sounded similar to his son, Kronprinz Wilhelm , captured speaking English on that 1932 Movietone interview - an essentially aristocratic (RP) English with quite a strong German accent .
AAs' English on the 1968 documentary isn't that great and is thickly accented ( kind of an indistinct Eastern European accent , but hard to pin down) . Far from the Scots/Irish accent of Anastasia's youth , and I assume ,the RP which she later learned from Gibbes. I guess Anna Anderson supporters would explain that by citing the shock , head injuries and subsequent amnesia caused by the Ipatiev House violence , and she had to re-learn/remember languages . It is their get out of jail card when all else fails.
-
The show, In Search Of (hosted by Leonard Nimoy) did a show on Anna Anderson, back in the late 1970's. They interviewed her and her husband, Jack.
Of course, Jack did most of the talking. When AA spoke, it was in a thick accent with broken English. She clearly was not familiar with the English language, as the real Anastasia would ahe been.
-
Msge.224
The interview with the Kaiser in English was part of a TV programme called 'The Real Kaiser Bill' shown in 1998. You may be able to find it on YouTube.
I've never heard a recording of the Crown Prince, but as he grew up in a more German milieu, I would expect his English to be more accented than his father's.
By contrast, Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, one of Louis Ferdinand's sons, was interviewed for the 1998 programme, and sounded almost entirely English.
Ann
-
Sounds like an interesting show, Ann. I'll see if I can track it down.