Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: koloagirl on April 02, 2005, 07:17:43 PM

Title: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: koloagirl on April 02, 2005, 07:17:43 PM
I was just wondering if anyone else has heard the story that Grand Duchesses Olga, Tatiana, and Anastasia were "inspected" or I suppose you could say "frisked"
very thoroughly after their arrival at Ekaterinburg from Tobolsk.

I believe I read that they were very intimately searched and after that, Alix would not let them ever remove their corsets again.

How horrible if this was true - also how surprising if it were and they never found any trace of jewels.  This leads me to think that there isn't any truth in this story.

I didn't read this in "FOTR" - but I believe in the Peter Kurth book.

Anyone have any further ideas on this?

Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ashanti01 on April 02, 2005, 07:53:26 PM
I do remember reading that after the children arrived, they were searched in such a manner that Alix ordered the Grand Duchess to never remove thier corsets.

Exactly how "in depth" that search was, I'm not sure, but it must have been enough to unnerve Alix enough to order them to keep the corsets on at all times.

But good question, if they were searched, I wonder how they didn't find the jewles carefully hidden in the corsets? ummm...
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 02, 2005, 07:57:04 PM
It's awful! I've never read something like that happened, although I've think maybe it did and the story of the jewels, what about that? was it real?

Interesting question you've made
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Lanie on April 03, 2005, 01:56:41 AM
Quote
I do remember reading that after the children arrived, they were searched in such a manner that Alix ordered the Grand Duchess to never remove thier corsets.

Exactly how "in depth" that search was, I'm not sure, but it must have been enough to unnerve Alix enough to order them to keep the corsets on at all times.

But good question, if they were searched, I wonder how they didn't find the jewles carefully hidden in the corsets? ummm...


They were not hidden in the corsets, they were hidden in wadding between two camisoles which were undergarments worn UNDER corsets to prevent the corset from chafing the skin.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ashanti01 on April 03, 2005, 03:08:00 AM
Ah... that would make more sense. Thanks Lanie, I had always read they were in the corsets.

Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Lanie on April 03, 2005, 03:28:49 AM
Quote
Ah... that would make more sense. Thanks Lanie, I had always read they were in the corsets.



Just faulty translations. :)  It happens a lot.  FA wrote about it somewhere, his own translation from the deposition in French; that's how I found out, I'd always thought corsets, but it still sounded funny after I researched a bit on early 20th century clothing...so now it makes sense! :)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: pinklady on April 03, 2005, 06:45:42 AM
I have also read that  jewels were sewn into the lining of hats.  Also that jewels were also buttons on coats ie the real buttons were removed and the jewels sewn on, with wadding around the jewels and then sewn back onto the coats as buttons.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Ortino on April 03, 2005, 09:19:21 AM
Quote
I have also read that  jewels were sewn into the lining of hats.  Also that jewels were also buttons on coats ie the real buttons were removed and the jewels sewn on, with wadding around the jewels and then sewn back onto the coats as buttons.


That is true. The girls and Alexandra did this as well.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: koloagirl on April 03, 2005, 03:53:57 PM
 :)

I wonder if the purpose of the "frisking" was to check for hidden jewels.....if so then their inspection of the clothing, etc. of the GD's wasn't very thorough.

When I read it I thought how traumatic it would have been for those very sheltered girls to be subjected to such a examination, especially on the heels of what sounded like a very stressful trip on the "Rus."

I hope it wasn't quite as "intimate" as it sounded.  
(Not that it wouldn't be traumatic for any of us!)

Janet R.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Elisabeth on April 03, 2005, 04:20:27 PM
No such "frisking" ever took place. This is a complete myth. I don't even know where this story started -??

In fact, after the murders and the discovery of the jewels hidden in the girls' camisoles and clothing, Yurovsky specifically complained to the Ural Regional Soviet that he had not been allowed to conduct personal body searches of the members of the imperial family and their suite.

The girls' luggage was searched repeatedly - the Bolsheviks were obviously searching for hidden valuables - but no such "frisking" was ever done of the grand duchesses themselves.  
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: koloagirl on April 03, 2005, 10:33:55 PM
 :)

It was referred to in the book "The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra:  Tsar" by Peter Kurth.

In the book he said:  (pg. 190)  "we know that the grand duchesses, when they arrived at Ekaterinburg, were subjected to a lengthy inspection and that the empress, after that, forbade them ever to remove their corsets."

I didn't read about this in "FOTR" by King and Wilson so I just wondered if this was a factual note or not.

:)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: James_Davidov on April 15, 2005, 01:19:10 AM
I know this is a little depressing, but I was just wondering, what the Imperial family had for dinner that fatal night.  I couldn’t find any info on it, and I was just wondering.  
Any help would be grateful

Thnxs.

James
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: James_Davidov on April 15, 2005, 01:21:40 AM
'any help would be appreciated' i mean, lol.  Its so annoying, i cant modify it, and now that little typo is just starring at me going 'Haha' u cant change me!

.....lol, i dont mean that literally, naturally..

anyway, bax to the topic,

James
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on April 15, 2005, 02:19:11 AM
i'm not sure where you could get the information from tell you the truth
selina             xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: James_Davidov on April 15, 2005, 09:42:50 AM
yeh, i hope someone knows...

that meal was probably the last thing the family did together, prior to the murders

James
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 15, 2005, 10:28:19 AM
Maybe Nicholas or Alix wrote something about this in their diaries...
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on April 15, 2005, 11:30:32 AM
good idea, look in their diary entries. i saw a reconstruction once, so i guess they were eating soup!
selina               xxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on April 15, 2005, 02:43:37 PM
I heard that they had chicken. This probably isn't true, since it didn't come from a good source.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: James_Davidov on April 16, 2005, 01:56:00 AM
They know what their diet in the house consisted of generally, dont they? maybe we just presume from that..

Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on April 16, 2005, 05:31:30 PM
Since it was their "last supper" and guards had tried to mug them of meat before... I can't imagine that they were treated any better...
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: James_Davidov on April 17, 2005, 05:25:48 AM
I wouldn't image they were treated any better, but i just wondered, was it soap..etc

james
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 17, 2005, 07:47:13 AM
Quote
...i just wondered, was it soap...


I don't think it was soap, James!  ;D At least I hope not  :P.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: bluetoria on April 17, 2005, 07:49:55 AM
Quote

I don't think it was soap, James!  ;D At least I hope not  :P.


Perhaps they had been swearing! My mother washed my brother's mouth out with soap when he swore as a child.  :-/  ;D (clean teeth!!)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on April 17, 2005, 09:47:43 AM
my mother always threatens me with that!
selina               xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: bluetoria on April 17, 2005, 10:49:12 AM
Well let that be a lesson to you!!!  ;D ;D  (I don't think my brother has sworn since & he's now in his 40s!!)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on April 17, 2005, 12:52:04 PM
i suppose that wouldn't taste so bad it if was oneof those yummy strawberry smelling soaps!
lol
im sorry that was so random!!
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on April 17, 2005, 01:50:56 PM
That makes me think...do you think OTMAA would have had their mouthes washed out with soap if they ever swore? That would have been a harmless punishment for Aleksey.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: pinklady on April 18, 2005, 04:59:42 AM
I think washing the mouth out with soap is standard, my father did it to us!
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on April 18, 2005, 08:09:51 AM
my mum did it a couple of times to me, so i only swear behind her back now!
selina             xxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on April 20, 2005, 08:22:41 PM
Hehee, I guess I'm the only one here who has never got my mouth washed out! Lol...
(Doesn't mean I don't deserve it though... :-X)
Annie
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 20, 2005, 08:46:53 PM
Ok. Nobody washed my mouth with soap but once I gave it a bit... and a big one... a weird child!!! ;D
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 21, 2005, 04:40:05 AM
Quote
Maybe Nicholas or Alix wrote something about this in their diaries...



Neither Alix nor Nicholas describe in their last diary entries their last meal, or any of the meals that day in any detail. Alix makes a reference to food only in that eggs had been brought for the Tsarevitch, and writes simply the word "supper" which took place at 8 o' clock in the evening. However, in other July entries she describes some of the food taken at their meals, lunch there was sometimes meat that was brought late (July 11th), and there is also a reference to soup on the same day. At the House, in the earlier months, Alix also noted "excellent bread" (June 18th), and "macaroni tart" (June 20th).
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarai on April 21, 2005, 03:55:59 PM
I believe the book FOTR mentions what the family's meals in the Ipatiev house sometimes consisted of, but not their last meal.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: lostfan on April 22, 2005, 03:48:11 PM
What does the macaroni tart consist of?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Michelle on April 22, 2005, 06:25:26 PM
I have to say that I've never had my mouth washed out with soap, thank goodness.  It seems like it would be a most unpleasant experience. :P
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: James_Davidov on April 22, 2005, 06:34:44 PM
Oh thnxs 4 the infoe Alexanastasia..

Speaking of my typo, no one ever did anything like that to me, when you think about it its realli viscious :o...  I do remember my grandmah once threatening to to put some mustard on the tip of my tounge if i spoke back...maybe thats just the same, at least its a food thou :P,

James
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: IlyaBorisovich on April 22, 2005, 07:54:38 PM
Quote
Since it was their "last supper" and guards had tried to mug them of meat before... I can't imagine that they were treated any better...


This has been refuted in Fate of the Romanovs.  The guards did not steal food from them, or abuse them in any way while they were eating.  The reports of the guards "mugging them of meat" were exaggerations by sympathetic authors, I'm afraid.

Ilya  
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: rskkiya on April 22, 2005, 09:13:09 PM
    I have read of one homemade menu including macaroni cheese and a baked apple tart --but never a "macaroni tart" ...

   Of course macaroni is just a sort of pasta which could have been baked with a sweet cream or fruit paste for a sort of simple sweet.

I may be wrong though about the self styled menu.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on April 23, 2005, 07:20:11 AM
they must have made a meal with what they had
selina             xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: etonexile on April 23, 2005, 04:14:50 PM
Likely some thin,dreadful soup.... :-/
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Johnny on April 24, 2005, 06:16:24 PM
Quote
   I have read of one homemade menu including macaroni cheese and a baked apple tart --but never a "macaroni tart" ...

    Of course macaroni is just a sort of pasta which could have been baked with a sweet cream or fruit paste for a sort of simple sweet.

I may be wrong though about the self styled menu.

rskkiya

Could it possibly be "macaroon" (am I spelling it correctly?) and not "macaroni"? In that case it makes a bit more sense.

Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Olga on April 24, 2005, 09:56:03 PM
A macaroon is a type of biscuit.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: etonexile on April 25, 2005, 10:34:33 AM
Macaroni would be more easily fixed than macaroons....
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on April 25, 2005, 11:02:35 AM
macaroons are made from almonds aren't they?
selina             xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: anna on April 25, 2005, 03:38:45 PM
Quote


Neither Alix nor Nicholas describe in their last diary entries their last meal, or any of the meals that day in any detail. Alix makes a reference to food only in that eggs had been brought for the Tsarevitch, and writes simply the word "supper" which took place at 8 o' clock in the evening. However, in other July entries she describes some of the food taken at their meals, lunch there was sometimes meat that was brought late (July 11th), and there is also a reference to soup on the same day. At the House, in the earlier months, Alix also noted "excellent bread" (June 18th), and "macaroni tart" (June 20th).


I don't think there was much variety in meals. In her diary Alix sometimes mentioned supper was like lunch, maybe leftovers.
Sednyov occasionally prepared vermicelli for Alix as she was ill. The rest of the family sometimes had cutlets.
I'm not sure, I thought the first weeks the meals were not cooked at the house but brought in. Later a kitchen was set up and Kharitonov cooked the meals .


Macaroons:a soft, chewy cookie made of sugar, egg whites, and ground almonds or coconut.

Anna
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: lexi4 on April 25, 2005, 04:41:54 PM
I wonder if they even had any idea it was their last meal.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: etonexile on April 25, 2005, 05:38:17 PM
Quote
I wonder if they even had any idea it was their last meal.


Surely not....
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: lexi4 on April 26, 2005, 11:19:42 PM
Quote

Surely not....

I don't think so either. It's all just sad.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: shadowfox4089 on May 23, 2005, 06:45:16 PM
I couldn´t tell if this was a painting or a picture of the Romanov family. But i really really hope that is just a painting. http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Drama.htm
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 23, 2005, 06:52:45 PM
Of course, this is not a photography! It's only a drawing. I read in Radzinsky's book that perhaps Yurovsky took a photography of the murdered family and servants...but I don't think so. It would have been awful!  :'( :o

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: shadowfox4089 on May 23, 2005, 07:04:45 PM
did you see the picture that has all of the bodies in the hole?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: speanroc on May 24, 2005, 12:43:55 PM
no , i didn't think an actual picture existed
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: La_Mashka on May 24, 2005, 02:38:11 PM
There are NO known pictures of the bodies.


So, everything you see is an artist's insterpretation.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: shadowfox4089 on May 24, 2005, 03:55:30 PM
thank god  ;D i thought i was looking at the actual photo of the bodies.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: zoya_konstantinovna on May 30, 2005, 09:56:55 PM
haha ive got tobasco sauce howeva u spell it...lol dont worry James i cant spell taht HAHA see ::)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Beth on June 01, 2005, 08:00:46 AM
And what is the relevance of your post?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: ferngully on June 01, 2005, 08:23:29 AM
drunk on tobasco perhaps? ;)
selina           xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Alexandra on June 02, 2005, 06:59:14 PM
I think what Shadowfox is referring to is the film footage which accompanies the article ... depicting the execution squad, the events in the Ipatiev house, and the aftermath.

Does anybody know what the film is from which this footage is taken? It's done rather a good job of looking like the reality must have been.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on June 03, 2005, 12:45:43 AM
That painting of the bodies was horrible. :( And such bad taste. Someone drew a woman with no top on, and knowing those sickos, it was probably one of the grand duchesses. So horrible.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Alexandra on June 03, 2005, 08:48:36 PM
The taste for sensationalism, as seen in today's tabloids, is nothing new. There were a number of publications in the 1920s which catered to the same sort of questionable 'taste.'

I am more interested in the film footage on this site, and have written to request more information about it. On the site, you can click on a box which will take you to a place where the same questions I have are asked - about the nature, date, place, and makers of that film footage - but there is no answer! So if somebody else wants to try, maybe we shall get somewhere. Clearly, the site shows artists' renderings of the events of July 16/17, 1918, but is the film footage from some documentary? And if so, what one?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 03, 2005, 09:00:51 PM
Hard to see how a picture of such an event could be done in "good taste". These are just dramatisations. Real pictures of real death abound, most people just do not choose to look at them.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarastasia on July 29, 2005, 12:33:37 PM
I definatly know that at least Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia had hidden diamonds in their clothing; this is why they were the last three to die as the bullets couldn't penetrate the diamonds.

As for the idea of "frisking", it could well have happened and they were probably subjetc to alot of "frisking", especially as the guards were on orders to never leave them alone, even when they went to the bathroom....

Sarastasia
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 29, 2005, 04:06:32 PM
Olga probably had them too- but she was shot in the head. I can't think of any reason for her to not have them...
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: hikaru on July 30, 2005, 05:26:12 PM
In one book I have read that all girls were inspected by Mr. Didkovsky - but I do not think that  it was "intimate" inspection, because  Yurovsky's band understood about jewels in the closes only when they shoot them. So Yurovsky ordered to take all closes from the dead bodies in order to check........
Jewels were like a rain. Some of them were picked up by the Kotlyaki's village peasants . (Most of them, of course, did not return  the jewels to the Soviets)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 02, 2005, 12:40:22 AM
(http://www.isd.net/~mbayly/icons/romanovs2.jpg)

Was this statue built on the spot of the Ipatiev house?

~Anastacia~
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Robby on August 02, 2005, 07:25:04 AM
I always thaught that on the Ipatiëvhouse spot is now a church or something, and were they were murdred a cross.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: AlexP on August 02, 2005, 09:52:49 AM
This is indeed the Church of the Spilled Blood in Ekaterinburg.

The statue is to the left, and it shows the Emperor holding his beloved son as they are massacred.

Indeed a church has been built upon the spot, a beautiful church, a timely church, and it is a much frequented church in a city...which does not hide its monarchical convictions.

Here is a link in English to help you.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/947770/posts

"Blessed are those that the Lord has called unto Himself".
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarastasia on August 07, 2005, 08:20:16 AM
1. The reason the jewels were not found was that they were actually sewn into their corsets, so then when they tried to find out why the bullets were bouncin off them, they tore open the corsets to find the jewels.

2. I believe that they weren't mear jewels, but diamonds.


Sarastasia
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on August 07, 2005, 08:32:52 AM
Actually, it was Olga, Tatiana & Anastasia who had the jewelry hidden in their undergarments. They didn't begin the process of concealing them until after Nicholas, Alexandra, and Maria had been transported out of Tobolsk.

I tend toward King & Wilson's beliefs about the Romanov's captivity, so as for me, I don't think the frisking scenario happened.
Sm

ps: this probably ought to go on the Final Chapter board, but I suspect only an FA can make thte move...
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: lostfan on August 07, 2005, 05:10:10 PM
Alexei looks rather tiny, like he's five, rather than going on fourteen. :-/

I read in Born to Rule, in the Epilogue, that on the site where either the house was, or the burial grounds, I forget which, but it said that seven seperate churches were being built, for each member of them family? Did this ever happen, or were they combined to form the one church?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on August 07, 2005, 06:19:45 PM
as mentioned above there is a formal cathedral on the spot of the murder (Ipatiev House).  I believe it does have seven seperate churches within it.

I also believe there is a wooden church now at the site of where the family was buried.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarastasia on August 08, 2005, 05:03:16 AM
If it was only Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia, if we take the theory that Olga was shot in the head, then why was it Tatiana, MARIA and Anastasia whom the bullets were flying off??

Sarastasia
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on August 08, 2005, 10:10:16 AM
Sarastasia --

There's been a lot of talk on this subject around here. Here's two threads for you to explore, which should help you decide what you believe:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102887317
(deals with Maria's lack of jewels at the time of the execution)

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1117473340
(deals with questions about the concealed jewels in general)

Sm
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Finelly on August 08, 2005, 12:26:01 PM
The myth about the frisking is probably based on two different things:

1.  During the boat ride from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg, SOMETHING happened to the Grand Duchesses.  The soldiers were all drunk and herded all the women into one room, and locked the men into another.  The GDs were screaming and crying during the night.  They did not take off their clothes, which is an indication that no rape occurred, but it is likely that there was some pretty awful stuff said to them and perhaps done in front of them.  

2.  Every morning in either TObolsk or Ekaterinburg, the entire family was gathered in a room and forced to "identify themselves".  Literally, the commander would say "Are you the GD Maria?" and she would have to step forward and say "yes".  

Given that several of the Grand Duchesses developed social relationships with their male guards, in addition to the above, it would be natural for the Empress to insist that everyone keep their corsets on.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 08, 2005, 08:50:26 PM
Weren't they burried at a big Cathedral?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarastasia on August 09, 2005, 03:13:00 AM
Where did you read about the boat ride from Tobolsk to Yeakternburg (Spel.)??

Sarastasia
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on August 09, 2005, 08:12:56 AM
Fate of the Romanovs, by Greg King & Penny Wilson, will fill you in about the steamer trip to Ekaterinburg.  It's a huge and in my opinion very good & well-researched book that's likely to challenge some of your views on the last days of the imperial family. Be forewarned that the execution chapter is very graphic (it's informative as well, but a lot of folks can't read it all in one sitting).
Sm
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on August 09, 2005, 08:44:44 AM
I meant that a wooden church has been built at the site they were originally buried.   I have a website somewhere and will look for it.

dca
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: noblepupil on August 10, 2005, 10:36:53 PM
I have read a few posts asking about the last known photographs of NAOTMAA, as individuals or family snaps.  I read in I believe N and A a life long passion.  That it was written by one of the guards that two days before the execution each member of the household had their photographs taken individually.  It was also shown in the television movie Anastasia the tsar's lost daughter.(c.late 1970's early 1980's).  Where each of them had to have their pictures taken to show Lenin or somebody.  
So basically if there was pictures taken of them two days before their execution what ever happen to the pictures?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 10, 2005, 11:08:41 PM
Well, I think all the pictures taken of them at Ekaterinburg were burned. I think the only pictures you can find of them before they left for Ekaterinburg were of them aboard the Rus, but I've never seen these pics.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: noblepupil on August 10, 2005, 11:14:20 PM
Okay but I would of thought the took the pics to show what state they were in before they were killed?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 10, 2005, 11:38:23 PM
I don't know, perhaps they did. But if they did, they were burned.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: GD Alexandra on August 11, 2005, 01:15:58 AM
And if they did, and later burned the pictures...what about the existance of photo negatives??
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Ortino on August 11, 2005, 10:14:14 AM
Probably burned. All the film the family had in their cameras was burned so any pictures there would have been destroyed as well. Probably in their hurry to cover up their act, the men got rid of everything that would suggest the IF's presence there.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: J_Zhivago on August 12, 2005, 08:15:56 AM
I never heard of a church at the sight of the old mine where they were first buried, and would love to hear about it or see a picture.  Please do post what you find!
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: highlowhall on September 08, 2005, 07:31:15 AM
After reading so much from beginning to end, of this much discussed tragic story, I often wonder if Nicholas and Alexandra themselves discussed, during years in captivity, their role in their own downfall and the end of Tsarism. As prisoners they had much time on their hands, to reflect and realise their mistakes .
And the children, especially the two older girls, who were actually educated young women at this time, would they not have questioned their parents about their imprisonment and the foreboding implications of it.

Just a thought!! Im just as fascinated as everybody else!!
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on September 08, 2005, 08:54:07 AM
The only reflection I recall at the moment is Nicholas's reaction to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Gilliard reported that Nicholas was disgusted that his abdication had led to the treaty, and for the first time expressed regret at giving up the throne. He considered the whole arrangement treasonous, from what I understand. He's quoted in a documentary as having said, "And to think they called Her Majesty a traitor!"

I know Olga is said to have realized more than anyone else the implications of their situation, but I haven't read any evidence that she discussed her feelings with anyone.

Some of Alix's letters may have discussed her views of the revolution, but I don't recall any particulars right now...
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on September 08, 2005, 06:13:44 PM
Forgot about this in the last post --

When Alix was trying to decide whether to accompany Nicky to Ekaterinburg or stay behind in Tobolsk with Alexei, she made some remark about how they [Bolsheviks] were trying to separate her from the emperor, and that without her, she was afraid he'd once more be forced to "do something stupid" -- a reference to the abdication. I think you can assume from that remark that she still had a firm belief in autocracy (and herself!)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 08, 2005, 08:15:02 PM
I didn't know that Alix had a choice to go to Enkaterinburg.  When was this a choice for Alix?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on September 08, 2005, 09:11:54 PM
The tsar was informed on April 25, 1918, by Vassili Vassilievich Yakovlev, the extraordinary commissar of the Central Executive Committee, that he was to be transferred from Tobolsk to points unknown. (There's plenty of debate over whether Yakovlev's original orders were to transfer Nicholas to Ekaterinburg or Moscow, but that's another story). Alix, to use the vernacular, pitched a fit. However, Nicky was also told he could take whomever he wished along with him. This threw the empress into a huge dilemma, since Alexei was recovering from a serious bout with hemophilia. Alix eventually chose to accompany the tsar, leaving Alexei primarily in the care of Tatiana in Tobolsk. Maria Nikolaevna also accompanied her parents to Ekaterinburg. Olga, Tatiana, Anastasia, and Alexei followed on May  20, when Alexei was deemed well enough to travel.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: bluetoria on September 10, 2005, 06:48:17 AM
I feel so sorry for Alix at that point. The decision she faced was so difficult - to leave her husband or her son. It may well be that she feared that without her support, Nicholas would be led into making some other concession (and I think it may have been she feared he would sign the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk) but also after all he had gone through already, I think there were 'human' motives in her decision to accompany him. Her letters immediately following the abdication are filled with pity for him being alone - perhaps she didn't want him to feel that again.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Jackswife on September 10, 2005, 03:53:58 PM
 My personal feeling is that Alexandra's chief concern at the time was keeping her family together. I think that her devotion to her family is the single most admirable characteristic she possessed, and despite her failings as an Empress she was cherished her husband and children, and when the abdication was "a done deal",  she was more interested in keeping her family intact than anything else.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Tania+ on October 20, 2005, 04:15:31 PM
In the last house the IF were held, did the IF know others had been killed? Were they told at any time of other members of their families, or that their staff had been killed? Or the leaderships of the Orthodox Church had been murdered ?

Could they at any of their places of imprisonment hear fighting, or shooting? If so, any reasons given to them by the commandmant or soldiers ?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on October 20, 2005, 05:17:33 PM
Also, did they know the house was being referred to as "The House of Special Purpose"?  :-X
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on October 20, 2005, 05:21:46 PM
They did not know that Nagorny and Sednev were shot. If I recall correctly, they were asking for information about Nagorny even on their last day alive. It seems to me, though, that the majority of the murders took place after the IF were executed.

I believe they could hear artillery fire, and that they were aware of the civil war. (Perhaps why they didn't question Yurovsky when he told them they were being moved into the basement for their own safety.)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 20, 2005, 05:59:24 PM
Why was the house being called "The House of Special Purpose"?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on October 20, 2005, 06:43:05 PM
Quote
Why was the house being called "The House of Special Purpose"?


It's a reference to the Bolsheviks' intent to execute Nicholas.  :P
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 20, 2005, 10:47:54 PM
Wow. Imagine if you were in the Romanov's place, and you overheard it being called that. Wouldn't it send a chill through your spine?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Tania+ on October 21, 2005, 07:40:08 PM
Clockworkgirl21,

Indeed, the whole episodic events of their IF difficulties, and their murders, did more than send a chill through my spine.

How did it make you feel ?

With the events you have read on them, what if any do you think they knew, as was my original question ?

Tatiana

Quote
Wow. Imagine if you were in the Romanov's place, and you overheard it being called that. Wouldn't it send a chill through your spine?

Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 21, 2005, 07:53:01 PM
Well, I'm sure they knew they were close to the end of their lives, even if they didn't realize that they knew. Sort of like blocking it out.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Erichek on October 22, 2005, 03:18:03 AM
"It's a reference to the Bolsheviks' intent to execute Nicholas. "

I do not agree - since the house was openly called "dom osobogo naznacheniya", and it was called like that ever since the bolsheviks had Ipatiev leave it and moved in Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria, I believe it referred to the house being allocated for the imprisonment on the Romanovs - NOT their execution. Moscow must have gotten information like this within a short amount of time, and if the name refered only to the execution, then that doesn't fit with the rest of the story.
Since we all know what happened in the house, we tend to understand the phrase "house of special purpose" only in one certain way.

Like I stated, I believe that, by calling the house like that at/after arrival of the first prisoners, it only meant to state the purpose the house was used for - imprisonment of the Romanovs. Had they been put in jail, it wouldn't have been called "osobaya tyur'ma - the special jail".


Erichek
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Ortino on October 22, 2005, 06:39:19 AM
Quote
I do not agree - since the house was openly called "dom osobogo naznacheniya", and it was called like that ever since the bolsheviks had Ipatiev leave it and moved in Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria, I believe it referred to the house being allocated for the imprisonment on the Romanovs - NOT their execution.


I agree with this. I've always took the name to mean the place of their imprisonment, not their execution. The name was openly used even before the idea to shoot the IF.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on October 22, 2005, 08:31:27 AM
I can agree with that as well, though I do think that at least the idea of Nicholas's execution was imminent by the time they arrived in Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on October 24, 2005, 10:36:17 AM
I think they did not know, but one would suppose they always lived with a sense of danger and peril at every point. They still had hope to the end, but maybe that was a brave front for when they thought about it, they must have realized it might be a dark future for them. But, though some of their relatives died, some of them escaped. They must have hoped for escape too. Apart from Nicholas, who was in the most danger, one wonders if the girls ever thought they woudn't get out of the situation alive. But, I think whatever their fate, they accepted it. Although it is true they wanted to get to a better point in their life.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sarushka on October 24, 2005, 11:00:19 AM
Quote
Apart from Nicholas, who was in the most danger, one wonders if the girls ever thought they woudn't get out of the situation alive.

Quite a few sources mention that Olga realized, more so even than her parents, the danger they were in.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Erichek on October 24, 2005, 12:40:47 PM
Quote
I think they did not know, but one would suppose they always lived with a sense of danger and peril at every point. They still had hope to the end, but maybe that was a brave front for when they thought about it, they must have realized it might be a dark future for them. But, though some of their relatives died, some of them escaped. They must have hoped for escape too. Apart from Nicholas, who was in the most danger, one wonders if the girls ever thought they woudn't get out of the situation alive. But, I think whatever their fate, they accepted it. Although it is true they wanted to get to a better point in their life.


I wonder if this is true.
Even today, when rereading FOTR, I was impressed by the chapters "A happy hour with the grandest people in the world" and "Goetterdaemmerung". I got to understand that:
- relations between the prisoners an their guards became less and less divined, the youngest three girls chatting to the soldiers as if they were their fathers' soldiers, like in the old days (did they differentiate?);
- some flirtations even sprung up;
- some soldiers felt more and more sorry for the ones they guarded;
- the prison regime was not as harsh as was earlier on  assumed;
- the girls mentioned finally emigrating to Great Brittain;
- the total surprise at Yurovsky's declaration.

It may as well be that the IF still assumed they were going to be shipped to Moscow, like they should have been in April of that same year. Such was known to them. They can have been thinking/hoping that the civil war made their transfer impossible at the time, but then later on they still would be moved to Moscow, and then abroad.
Had the IF been afraid and have haid premonitions about their gruesome fate, would they have felt at ease in making small-talk to their guards, have Yurovsky chat with Aleksej, note that Yurovsky seemed to do better than Avdayev, etc., etc.?

Just some thoughts...

Theories pointing the other way involve assumptions that Olga "knew" better what the circumstances were, which is yet to be proven, and Alexandra's ominous referrals to the end of live on earth and coping with the ' vale of tears'  for a glorious eternal life in heaven, which is something she has been known to focus on already in her early adult years (so nothing new there)....

Erichek
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on October 25, 2005, 10:19:47 AM
Yes, we should always debate both sides of the story of things we don't know. I think ultimatly, we should make our stand on every issue our own. By following our own intuition, we should make our conclusions. But I like to here both sides, and others opinions. But learning what each other thinks, and reading biographies of differing viewpoints, you can inform your own viewpoint more. I thought your post, Erichek,was very thoughtful and enjoyed reading it.

I believe we will  never know for sure how much the IF knew of what their end would be, or what their relatives end had been.I think they may have sensed their doom, but then, Olga was very thoughtful, and Alexandra always expressed such sentiments.I think they did sense doom, to what degree, I don't know. But they did have cheerful moments. Also, they continued with their daily round of life, like they accepted the sitiuation as being temporary. They were shocked at the manner of their death, in the cellar,. They never expected to die that night, under those circumstances. One wonders if they even expected to die in such a brutal way.  :o I know they came to terms with everything, and if they had the time came to terms with what they realized would happen in the cellar. Olga and Alexandra crossed themselves, realizing that their lives were over. But at first they were surprised.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Teddy on November 25, 2005, 03:09:22 PM
If you are intrested in the Romanovs you always end with the brutal murders of the Romanovs.

Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, Alexei, Michael, Ella, Serge M., Konstantin K., Ioann K. and Igor K., Paul, George M., Dmitri K and Nicolai M.,

But what about Nicholas K, and his son Artemi. They were also killed I think. Or what about Daria von Leuchtenberg, she was also murdered by the Bolscheviks and how about Count Aleksei Alekseivich Belevsky-Zhukovsky? He was a son of the Grand Duke Alexei A.

Altough there is no direct proof of the murdering of Nicholas K. and his son Artemi, but you must consider that their deaths were strange. For sure, were Daria and Count Aleksei murdered by the Bolsheviks, although many years later..

What do you think?

And who have more information about the Count and Artemi?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: grandduchessella on November 25, 2005, 06:04:21 PM
I think the consensus wast that Nicholas K died a natural death and was actually feted by the local Bolsheviks upon his death.

As for his descendants, when Royalty did an article on his granddaughter, there was brief mention of his children. I have the article somewhere unless someone else remembers the details. I think one 'disappeared' at some point and the other died in combat?

Daria's fate was discussed on another thread. Which one, memory again fails me.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 26, 2005, 11:59:23 AM
Prince Artemi Iskander died during the Civil War. I know of no evidence that he was killed by the Bolsheviks in the sense that his cousin Nicholas II was.

Let's try a list:

1. HIM Emperor Nicholas II
2. HIM Empress Alexandra Feodorovna
3. HIH Tsesarevich Alexei Nicholievich (presumed killed)
4. HIH Grand Duchess Olga Nicholievna
5. HIH Grand Duchess Tatiana N.
6. HIH Grand Duchess Marie N. (presumed killed)
7. HIH Grand Duchess Anastasia N.

The above were presumed murdered at the Ipatiev House, Ekaterinburg, Perm Government.

8. HIH Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich (titular Emperor Michael II, presumed killed)

The above was presumed murdered outside Perm.

9. HIH Grand Duke Serge Michaelovich
10. HIH Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna (sister of Empress)
11. HIH Prince Ivan Constantinovich
12. HIH Prince Igor Constantinovich
13. HIH Prince Constantine Constantinovich
14. HSH Prince Vladimir Paley (son of Grand Duke Paul A, and a morganaut and poet)

The above were presumed murdered outside Alapaevsk, Perm Government

15. HIH Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich
16. HIH Grand Duke Nicholas Michaelovich
17. HIH Grand Duke George Michaelovich
18. HIH Grand Duke Dimitry Constantinovich

The above were presumed murdered at the Fortress of Peter and Paul, Petrograd, St. Petersburg Government.

Presumably, 18 is the number.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 27, 2005, 06:07:08 AM
Hey, who was Daria von Leuchtenberg??  :)
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: leanora on November 27, 2005, 12:42:44 PM
Considering the book of Greg K. and Penny W '"the fate of the Romanovs" it's said:

"When Nicholad II abdicated the Russian Throne on March 15, 1917, the 304-year-old Romanov Dynasty ended. On that cold winter day, 52 members of the imperial house were living in the empire. Over the following two years, 17 were murdered while 35 managed to escape the Revolution"

Is it 17 or 18?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Teddy on November 27, 2005, 02:01:54 PM
Considering the book: The Romanovs the way it was were in the Court Journal of 1917, 65 Members of the Imperial Family?

Who are those 65?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 27, 2005, 03:31:20 PM
Quote
Considering the book of Greg K. and Penny W '"the fate of the Romanovs" it's said:

"When Nicholad II abdicated the Russian Throne on March 15, 1917, the 304-year-old Romanov Dynasty ended. On that cold winter day, 52 members of the imperial house were living in the empire. Over the following two years, 17 were murdered while 35 managed to escape the Revolution"

Is it 17 or 18?


17 Dynasts. 18 Romanovs murdered during the Revolution and Civil War. The difference is Prince Vladimir Paley. He was not a dynast but was nonetheless murdered along with Ella, Serge M, the Constaninovichi princes, and their retainers at Alapaevsk.

I also didn't include Daria or Alexei BZ who were Romanov descendants. Both were murdered under Stalin.

I also did not include Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, who died in Switzerland who I believe may have been the victim of foul play. Or George Brasov, whose auto accident death at age 21 I have also wondered about. Considering the trouble and expense that Stalin went into with The Trust, I would not be surprised if Papa Joe had them killed.

So the totals could be:

Romanovs murdered during R/CW - 18
Romanov descendents murdered by Stalin - 2
Romanov males possibly murdered by Stalin - 2

Total Potential Kills - 22
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 27, 2005, 03:47:35 PM
As far as I can tell two collateral members of the Imperial House were killed in 1919 during the civil war:

Prince Atrem Nikolaievich Iskander

Duke Andrei Georgievich Leuchtenburg

One collateral member of the Imperial House was killed in the early 1930's by the Soviets:

Count Aleksei Alekseievich Belevsky-Zhukovsky
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Teddy on November 27, 2005, 03:55:10 PM
Duke Andrei Georgievich Leuchtenburg? Tell me more, David. Why this name?

And Lisa, you makes a little bit mystery about Grand Duke Dmitri and Prince George Brassov.

I like that kind of mystery... ;D
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Margarita Markovna on November 27, 2005, 04:39:04 PM
Quote
Hey, who was Daria von Leuchtenberg??  :)


Some links:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1126454148;start=46#46

http://www.geocities.com/henrivanoene/genleuchtenberg.html


Other than here, the thread I link above is the only time she is mentioned at all on this forum.  :-/
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 27, 2005, 06:21:04 PM
Quote
Duke Andrei Georgievich Leuchtenburg? Tell me more, David. Why this name?

And Lisa, you makes a little bit mystery about Grand Duke Dmitri and Prince George Brassov.

I like that kind of mystery... ;D



Duke Andrei Georgievich von Leuchtenburg was born in Saint Petersburg on 9 July 1903 and he was killed in action at Narva, Estonia on 22/25 February 1919 while serving with the White Army forces of General Yudenich.  His great grandfather was Maximillian Joseph Eugen August Napoleon, Duke von Leuchtenberg who was granted the title of HIH Prince Romanovsky when he married HIH Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna of Russia. His great great grandfather was HIH Eugene Rose de Beauharnais, Prince of France, Viceroy of the Kingdom of Italy, Hereditary Grand Duke of Frankfurt, Duke von Leuchtenberg and Furst von Eichstädt.

David
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on December 27, 2005, 01:05:08 PM
Just my humble opinion, but I think it's impossible that they did not figure out their fate (i.e. the execution).  The atmosphere they were in, the constant imprisonment, the vicious surveillance.  They would have realized it could not go on forever like that and something would have to be done with them.  They would have felt something building, something looming on the horizon based on the general atmosphere in the house.  Furthermore, it had been more than a year and there was no word of any foreign country demanding their release which means it would never have happened barring some extreme circumstances.  

I do, however, think that if the other Romanovs (Ella, Michael, etc.) had been executed before them by weeks or a month than the news would have leaked out and it would have benefited their cause.  Foreign countries would have lept into action and demanded the release of the Imperial Family and possible threatened military actions against the Reds.  
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: calebGmoney on December 28, 2005, 07:41:46 PM
They were not informed that family members and such were dieing as you can see in their diaries. In fact, when Alexei's nanny had been taken away and shot, they did not why he had not returned.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on December 28, 2005, 07:52:35 PM
I know  :)  I was just saying that if the deaths had happened before hand it might have helped their cause from an international viewpoint.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: RealAnastasia on December 28, 2005, 08:50:06 PM
They could have known that the Ipatiev House was called "The House of Special Purpose", but I didn't know it for sure. However, it's almost sure that they didn't know that Nagorny and Sednev were already murdered.  :'(

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: carkuczyn on August 12, 2006, 02:19:57 PM
i would like to know how the tsar's mother, sister, uncles, and cousins were rescued.  it seems like, if they could flee the country, then, the tsar and his family could have somehow made it out too.  i don't understand this completely.  i know the tsar was stubborn and naive, but surely he had to see the danger that he and his family were in the longer they stayed in russia.  you would think that he could have made his own escape a bargaining issue for his abdication.  in other words, "i will abdicate the throne as soon as my wife, children and i are safely out of the country."  i think the provisional government would have done it just to be rid of them and not to have to worry about what to do with them.  this really baffles me.  any insights on this?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Ortino on August 12, 2006, 03:19:03 PM
They were fortunate not to be killed--even their situation was perilous. They fled to the Crimea--where they had to deal with the local, radical Bolsheviks--and traveled on the HMS Marlborough to Malta, sent along by Queen Alexandra of England to rescue her sister. Dagmar refused to leave Russia prior to April 1919, and only did so after reluctantly recognizing that the Bolsheviks were taking over the entire country. As ex-tsar, Nicholas and his wife and children were much valuable than his sister, mother, or cousins. Therefore, he could not just quietly slip away from the new Bolshevik government as the others might have. The Bolshevik takeover also caused a huge stir in Europe--where could they have gone without causing a fuss? The invitation to England was withdrawn and probably no other monarchy would have taken them in either.

The tsar and his family were virtually prisoners evenbefore he signed the abdication---the train tracks to St. Petersburg were blocked and the family was confined to Tsarskoe Selo. He or them couldn't have gone anywhere, and I dount any of them would have tolerated separation in any form. He also obviously couldn't have predicted that his family would be disposed of so cruelly, if at all--I still can't believe they killed Alexandra and the children. He probably assumed at the worst that they would be political prisoners--confined, but kept alive. Nicholas was a Russian to the very depths of his soul and refused to abandon his country. Unfortunately, he died for it. 
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: carkuczyn on August 12, 2006, 09:04:11 PM
what a terribly sad, sad tragedy.  the tsar and his family were star crossed from every direction.  it's seems that nothing ever worked out for them.  the only part of their lives that was left untouched was their love for each other.  and that, i think, is what draws us all to them.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: grandduchessella on August 13, 2006, 09:49:18 PM
Well, George V (perhaps trying to compensate for his tragic error in deciding to ask the asylum invitation be rescinded) sent the Marlborough along, not Queen Alexandra. She did urge him to and she also pleaded with her sister to leave. There were actually ships waiting for several weeks, I believe, to take the Dowager Empress out of Russia but she was, even at that point, reluctant to leave. Finally, she was persuaded to accept the offer and left, along with Xenia and her family and the Nicolaivichi--Nikolasha & Stana, Peter & Militza and their family, as well as just about anyone else that could cram aboard.

There was a thread on the Marlborough and the events surrounding the Crimean departur

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1128.0.html
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: carkuczyn on August 14, 2006, 12:20:49 AM
so i am gathering, from what ortino said, that there was never any chance of the tsar or his family escaping.  possibility might have been if king george would not have rescinded his offer of assylum to the imperial family....but that is already water over the bridge.  and the bolsheviks could have made it difficult even if they had been guaranteed assylum somewhere.  is that the general consensus?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: carkuczyn on August 14, 2006, 12:25:59 AM
also....is it written about anywhere whether or not the tsar's mother held a grudge against her brother in law, king george, for denying nicky assylum?  i would imagine there would have been some harsh words exchanged at some point.  i try to put myself in her place...and when i do, i think i would have a hard time forgiving him.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: grandduchessella on August 14, 2006, 01:20:46 PM
George V was her nephew, not her brother-in-law. They seemed to have still gotten on well, I haven't ever read anything differently. She certainly spent a lot of time in his company after the Revolution. Maybe she knew and understood the situation, maybe she didn't and thus had nothing to forgive. Didn't she refuse to believe that the family was actually dead anyway?
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 14, 2006, 01:44:38 PM
Yes, the Dowager Empress was in denial about her son's and grandchildren deaths until her own death. I think she believed that they were rescued and were hiding out somewhere...  I suppose that was easier for her than to accept the truth!
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: rosieposie on November 02, 2006, 11:49:41 PM
Hi there,
I don't know if this has been answered before and as I am at an internet cafe I have little time left. I would like to know when did the children realize that they were of high importance/royality?
Thanks
Rosie
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2006, 10:06:35 AM
I am not sure.. I think they would have realized fairly young, because they were not just royalty, but the children of the Tsar of Russia. Alexei, in particular, was always aware of his position, but then he was the heir. I would think they knew fairly soon, but then sometimes when you are a young child, either things overwhelm you with their importance, or seem less important than they are.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on November 04, 2006, 12:56:07 AM
I would have to concur with Imperial Angel. The Tsar’s children appear to have realized at a young age what and who they were. The Grand Duchesses seem to have been very unaffected by their position. They were given a comparatively spartan upbringing. Hard beds, simple furniture, plain food. Tatiana alone was referred to, by some observers, as being rather haughty. Given that she was very much like her mother, however, it may well be that she was simply uncomfortable with strangers, and her behavior, like her mother's, was misinterpreted.

They were born into a royal family, the life of a Grand Duchess was all they had ever known, and I'm sure it must have seemed every bit as normal to them, as our way of living is to us. It was just a part of who they were. Alexei was a bit different. Where the Grand Duchesses were never allowed to treat people in a condescending manner, the Tsarevich, because of his illness, was allowed to get away with far more. He was usually kind, but had been known to misbehave outrageously. He told several people that he could do, more or less, whatever he wished, because he was the Tsarevich. The Tsar was embarrassed when he did, but never really scolded him.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on November 05, 2006, 07:18:39 PM
All you said is true. I agree about Tatiana, that her behaviour was called haughty, but Alexandra's was often called so, and that was obviously misinformed. We know a bit less about Tatiana's personality than that of her mother, so it is often repeated that she seemed haughty without looking into reasons people might say that, etc. She did however seem very Imperial, and suiting her status, and people never said that about Alexandra, they used haughty only as a negative term, never as a good one. It wasn't remarkable to them about their position, although they acted accordingly with it, and perhaps had their moments of wonder at who they were.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on November 06, 2006, 04:40:10 PM
I often wonder how OTMAA actually adjusted from living like the royalty they were, to living like they were in a jail. They obviously didn't like it, who would, but they went from one extreme to the other pretty quickly. I would have expected them to think, "How dare they?!" when the guards did things like taking the bathroom door away and grabbing food off their plates. Instead, judging by their letters and diaries, they had the "I'm not surprised" attitude. You may disagree, that's just some of my thoughts. It was probably because OTMA really weren't raised to belief their rank made it okay to believe they didn't have to respect people, and be polite. They didn't even seem to mind doing servent work once Nicholas was overthrown. They of course knew they were the children of the tsar, but the tsar they knew was their loving papa.

About Aleksey, he DID seem haughty in his younger years, but many children are like that who have parents in high places. Even I did when I was a little girl, when my own grandmother was teaching Bible school, I was a downright brat! Even now, I sometimes have to remind my friends to tell me when I'm being bossy.  ::) He grew out of it, especially if the story about him being upset at his father for knowing a 12 year old boy was going to war and not caring is true.

I think all the children all knew their ranks, but didn't believe it actually made them more important than others.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 11:45:31 AM
Yes, you are right otma and Alexei were not raised to be haughty, or anything. They were aware of their position, but at the same time they were not like some of the Vladmirvichi who were said to be very aware of their position, and haughty. The way otma was brought up wasn't to have their rank go to their heads, but to be aware of it, and use it for good, not bad.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on November 07, 2006, 12:00:18 PM
Children usually realise their position in the world when they start school, as they begin friendships with other children and begin to understand that they are not the most important person in the world and that they share their existence with a lot of other people outside of the immediate family.

I would imagine in the case of the Romanov children that it was actually quite a slow realisation for them that they were different, as they had very little interaction with children outside of the family.  Understanding their own importance in a political sense would be something they would have had to have explained to them, as if all they ever saw was palaces and fancy clothes, they would never have understood that not everyone lived in the same way they did.  It was probably a rather organic process- them seeing things and asking questions and then gathering their difference from other people gradually.  For example, on their way to somewhere in a carriage, one of the children may have noticed some other children playing in the street, and asked why they couldn't do the same, etc.  Children are very perceptive of difference as they grow older, and so as they became more self aware, the questions would have come quite thick and fast.  The trouble is in ascertaining whether the children actually understood what it was to be Grand Duchesses and a Tsesarevich until they were quite old.  In a family where everyone has a title, it must be difficult to understand what significance that has in the wider world as a child. 

Does anyone have any concrete information on this, rather than just conjecture, as my post undoubtedly is??

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 12:38:34 PM
Yes, it might have been slow. The world around them was a very opulent one, and although they were not raised to be haughty, it was natural for them to get used to a certain sitiuation and think that was all there was. But, they were very much raised in a quiet family way, and not in the grand way they could have been, although I can see them as children thinking that is all there was. They could easily have been much grander in upbringing, but their parents and the whole Romanov family tradition behind them was that it was not the way it was done. But most children tend to think their family's reality is the only reality for a long time.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Tania+ on November 07, 2006, 12:58:51 PM
I recall reading that they dressed when home, in very ordinary dress, and they slept on army cots, so in this regard they were told I believe that they merited nothing special. I believe later in the lives of the now deceased Princess Grace Kelly's household, she once said that she wanted to raise her children similarly. She taught her children as well to make their own beds, clean up after themselves, and learn to be individualistic. I believe that the IF children were and continued to live their lives with dignity, and understanding about and around their environments. I think they were brought up in a christian environment, and the teachings of the church played a greater part in molding their personalities, etc.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 03:50:18 PM
That seems true to me, and about sums it up. I hope for the person who asked this question, they have their answer. I am not sure of much for certain info on what Rachel posted, but there isn't that much indepth about otma in when they would have realized their rank. There is much about their childhoods in books though, and from this we can gather facts.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Sunny on November 21, 2011, 06:09:56 AM
I did not find a more suitable thread for my wuick answer, but since it's quick, i saw no need to open a whole thread. if it's not the right place, i hope a mod will move the post.
I was wondering: who took the place of Pankratov when he was dismissed in January 1918? Alix recorded the dismissing in her diary, but i couldn't find anywhere who took his place.
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: Kalafrana on November 21, 2011, 07:32:09 AM
'In a family where everyone has a title, it must be difficult to understand what significance that has in the wider world as a child.' 

I remmember distinctly a documentary about harems which featured an interview with an elderly Ottoman prince (if I remember correctly a son of the last reigning Turkish Sultan). In traditional Ottoman fashion he was brought up in his father's harem, and declared that until he was about eight or nine he thought everybody grew up in a harem!

Ann

Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: carkuczyn on November 11, 2019, 04:39:28 AM
1. The reason the jewels were not found was that they were actually sewn into their corsets, so then when they tried to find out why the bullets were bouncin off them, they tore open the corsets to find the jewels.

2. I believe that they weren't mear jewels, but diamonds.


Sarastasia
Title: Re: Imprisonment, Last Days & Death of Romanovs in 1918
Post by: tenorsfan on November 17, 2019, 02:00:13 PM
I can't believe how people accept that narrative of the bullets bouncing off the corsets and not killing the girls more quickly and more humanely. What percentage of the bullets would have hit one of the stones and bounced off? More likely a bullet would have bypassed a stone or smashed it and continued on or pushed the stone into the body. Seems like common sense to me. I've never handled a diamond but you can break emeralds and sapphires easily with a hammer. That's how you mine them. More lies from the killers, methinks.