Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Rulers Prior to Nicholas II => Topic started by: Frederika on April 08, 2005, 12:29:30 PM

Title: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: Frederika on April 08, 2005, 12:29:30 PM
Russian Royalty

1276 Daniel I
1303 Yuri I
1325 Ivan I
1340 Simon the proud
1353 Ivan II
1359 Dmitri I
1389 Vasili I
1425 Vasili II the dark
1462 Ivan III
1505 Vasili III
1533 Ivan IV the terrible
1584 Fedor I
1598 Boris I
1613 Mikhail I
1645 Aleksay I
1676 Fedor II
1682 Ivan V
1689 Petr I the great
1725 Ekatarina I
1727 Petr II
1730 Anna I
1740 Ivan VI
1741 Elisavtha I
1761 Peter III
1762 Ekatarina II the great
1796 Pavel I
1801 Aleksandr I
1825 Nickoli I
1855 Aleksandr II
1881 Aleksandr III
1894 Nickoli II
1917 Mikhail II

It was said that Pavel I was a terreble and represive Tsar but he was quite a libral reformer most of his reforms were reversed by his son after his murder. :-/
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: aleksandra on May 15, 2005, 03:53:47 AM
The Mongols were there for a few years before their war with some others were called boyars. And a couple of other wars happed along the way. That’s all I can remember. For right now.
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: Bernardino on November 29, 2005, 04:25:45 AM
Hello  :)


I can´t find a descendant line from the Riurikids to the early Romanovs. Patriarch Filaret's step-mother was a Riurikid if I'm not mistaken, and I read somewhere that his wife might have had Riurikid ancestors, but that it was unprooven. Emperor Peter III Aleksejevitch had for sure Riurikid blood (from the Middle Age I suppose), through the Holstein-Gottorp. But did Emperor Peter I Alexejevitch (the Great) had any Riurikid blood?

Can anyone provide a list of his ancestors?

Thanks in advance...

Bernardino Sobral, from Portugal.
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 29, 2005, 10:38:20 AM
Bernardino,

I have addressed this question before either on alt.talk.royalty, Russian and Balkans Royal Message Board or on this forum. I will try to find my old post and re-post it here.

As to your question, I remember that there was a grandmother on Peter's maternal side who was a Rurikid princess, a Princess Volkonsky to be exact.

David
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: Bernardino on November 30, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
Thank you David...

I am anxiously waiting for your reply...


Bernardino
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 30, 2005, 06:08:58 PM
My memory was correct, that Peter the Great was connected to the Rurikid Dynasty by way of a Princess Volkonsky.

The second wife of the first Romanov Tsar of Russia, Mikhail Fedorovich was a descendent of Rurik. Evdokia Lukianova Streschneva (1608-1645) was the daughter of Lukian Stepanovich Streshnev and Princess Anna Konstantinovna Volkonskaya. The Volkonskys were a branch of the Chernigov Princely Houses (which included the Odoevskys, Gorchakovs, Scherbatovs, Baryatinskys, Obolenskys, Dolgorukys, Mosalskys and others) who descended from 13th centruy ruler Mikhail II Grand Prince of Kiev and Prince of Chernigov.

By the way, the first wife of Tsar Mikhail Fedorovich was Princess Maria Vladimirovna Dolgorukova who was also from the Chernigov Rurikids. It was probably vied as a wise thing to marry into this earlier dynasty as the Romanovs were viewed as parvenus by in the Russian nobility.

David
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: RomanovFan on December 06, 2005, 08:16:55 PM
The Rurik family ruled before the Romanovs. Russia wasn't Russia yet, it was a very small mass of land (at least compared to what it is now) called Moscovy.

I don't remember the guy's name, but the first ruler founded the Orthodox religion in Constantinople. Ivan the Great (Ivan the Terrible's grandfather) was the first ruler to use the title Tsar or the Russian word for 'Ceasar'.
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: Svetabel on December 07, 2005, 12:29:13 AM
Quote
I don't remember the guy's name, but the first ruler founded the Orthodox religion in Constantinople.  


I think you mean "the guy" Vladimir,the ruler who became an Orthodox? ;)
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: ilyala on December 07, 2005, 03:49:43 AM
Quote
The Rurik family ruled before the Romanovs. Russia wasn't Russia yet, it was a very small mass of land (at least compared to what it is now) called Moscovy.

I don't remember the guy's name, but the first ruler founded the Orthodox religion in Constantinople. Ivan the Great (Ivan the Terrible's grandfather) was the first ruler to use the title Tsar or the Russian word for 'Ceasar'.


the reason he used that title was because he married sophia paleologue, who was a descendant of the last byzantine kings. the byzantine empire had just fallen, russia (if it was called russia, i believe it was still the muscovy cnezate, i don't know when it was called russia first) was the only somewhat important orthodox country left, and in light of the marriage, i suppose it seemed natural.
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: David_Pritchard on December 07, 2005, 02:40:28 PM
Quote

the reason he used that title was because he married sophia paleologue, who was a descendant of the last byzantine kings. the byzantine empire had just fallen, russia (if it was called russia, i believe it was still the muscovy cnezate, i don't know when it was called russia first) was the only somewhat important orthodox country left, and in light of the marriage, i suppose it seemed natural.


Yes it was called Russia at the time that Ioann III Sovereign of  Russia, Grand Prince of Vladimir, Moscow, Novgorod, Pskov, Tver, Yugorsk, Vyatsk, Perm and Bolgaria married the heiress of the Byzantine Empire, Princess Sophia Paleologue.

David
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: ilyala on December 07, 2005, 03:36:22 PM
ivan pretty much doubled the territories he inherited during his 43 years of rule... his son, vasili 3rd, also conquered a lot of land and they were the true founders of russia as we know it today.
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: cimbrio on December 29, 2005, 03:24:01 PM
I can't answer the question of "how was Peter the Great connected genealogically (i.e. by blood) to the Ruriks, but I know several descnedants of the Rurikids married into European royalty. Anna Yaroslavna of Kiev married Henri I of France; this is perhaps the most famous connection between western royalty and the Ruriks. However, the Kurakin family descend directly from the Rurikids too; since the Stroganovs, the Trubetzkoys etc married in and out of royalty and each other there might well be a link between present and past. The Grand Dukes of Lithuania also descend from the Ruriks (intermarriage) and I believe you can trace them via the Jagiellons... Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Rulers priors to the Romanovs and their connection to them
Post by: cimbrio on December 29, 2005, 03:36:32 PM
Irina Kurakina (b.1903), wife of Prince Gavriil Konstantinovich
Ivan Kurakin
Anatoly Kurakin
Alexander Kurakin
Boris Kurakin
Alexey Kurakin
Boris Kurakin
Alexander Kurakin
Boris Kurakin
Ivan Kurakin
Grigory Kurakin
Simeon Kurakin
Andrey Kurakin
Pyotr Kurakin
Andrey Bugakov "Kuraka" (boyar)
Ivan "Bulgak"
Vasily Patrikeyev
Yuri Patrikeyev, boyar of Moscow
Alexander, Prince of Podolia
Narimantas (baptised as Gleb), Pr of Pinsk
Gédyminas, Great Duke of Lithuania
Butvydas, Great Duke of Lithuania
Traidenis/Troiden of Lithuania
Vitenas
David, Pr of Vilensk
Rostislav (for the last 200 years no one believes he is the ancestor of the Jagiellon dyansty, to which the above-mentioned people belong to)
Rogvolod, Pr of Polotsk
Vseslav "the sorcerer" of Polotsk
Bryachislav of Polotsk
Izyaslav, Pr of Polotsk (inherited through his mother)
Saint Vladimir of Kiev
Svyatoslav I of Novgorod
Ingvar/Igor "the Old"
Rurik

Phew!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Rurikid descendants?
Post by: ilyala on August 01, 2009, 04:01:49 AM
I was just reading about Ivan III - apparently besides Vasili III, he had another son, Andrey of Staritsa, who had a son, Vladimir. Vladimir's and his family were killed by Ivan the Terrible during the Oprichnina, however his daughter survived.

Maria Vladimirovna married Magnus of Livonia (son of king Christian III of Denmark) and had two daughters. Does anyone know what happened to them and whether or not they had any descendants?

I'm just baffled how after Ivan the Terrible's son Feodor died, there were absolutely no Rurikids left, considering the fact that most Rurikids had quite a lot of children. I understand that there was a tradition of treating a tsar's brothers with suspicion and of not letting them get married in order for them not to threaten the tsar, tradition which encouraged the extinction of the dynasty. However, I just can't help thinking that there must have been some left. The election of tsar Michael seems quite random considering that he was related to a tsar's wife (albeit a very loved wife) and... that was about it, genealogically speaking.

Was the condition of the woman in the Russian society of those times so low that no-one ever thought to consider female-line descendants of tsars (not as in females, but males descended on the female line)? Or were they so obscure that people just preferred a powerful boyar?
Title: Re: Rurikid descendants?
Post by: Svetabel on August 05, 2009, 07:58:55 AM
Magnus married Maria in 1573, they had 2 daughters:

Maria 1580-1597
Eudokia 1581-1588

The girls died young as you see.

Also the male line was always in preference,and the times XVI-XVII were too tumultous for Russia, the country needed a strong male ruler, a powerful boyar as you said.
Title: Re: Rurikid descendants?
Post by: ilyala on August 07, 2009, 02:54:03 PM
it's amazing when you think how many would-be tsars and possible descendant lines just died - if you consider just the Rurikids starting with Ivan III:

Ivan III's grandson Dmitri died in jail where he was placed by his half-uncle Vasili (also his father, Ivan, original heir, died young)
The Staritsa line, previously mentioned (apparently Vladimir had many children killed by Ivan the Terrible)
Ivan III had another son Yuri who was not allowed to marry and died childless
Vasili III also had a son named Yuri (deaf mute, his son died young)
Ivan IV's son Ivan was killed by Ivan IV!
Ivan IV's son Dmitri died in epilepsy attack (popular version, other versions include murder and escape which is unlikely)

not a good track record :)
Title: Re: Rurikid descendants?
Post by: zoepaleologa on August 08, 2009, 10:53:00 AM

Was the condition of the woman in the Russian society of those times so low that no-one ever thought to consider female-line descendants of tsars (not as in females, but males descended on the female line)? Or were they so obscure that people just preferred a powerful boyar?

Though she was not a Rurikid, Irina Godunov (the wife of Ivan's successor, Fedor I) was considered his heir when he died in 1598. She quickly indicated her wish to take holy orders, perhaps to ensure that the throne would default to her heir, Boris Godunov. As Tsaritsa, Irina apparently took some role in public affairs (unusual for the time) and was reported to receive ambassadors by the side of her husband.

However, the Muscovite state was otherwise male-dominated to an extreme!

There is a good article on Wikipedia about other Rurikids. The ruling Muscovite house before the Time of Troubles was more correctly called 'Danilovichi' (descendants of Grand Prince Daniil), as Rurikovichi can mean all descendants from the Kievan dynasty - who ruled appanages of the fragmented Rus' after the destruction of the Kievan state by the Mongol invasion. As an example, the Shuiski princes (holding lands around Suzdal') considered themselves an elder branch of the dynasty to the Danilovich. Sentiments which might not have been wise to utter in the presence of say, Ivan IV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurikids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurikids)