Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Rasputin => Topic started by: Lass on April 12, 2005, 10:58:56 AM

Title: Rasputin & Nicholas
Post by: Lass on April 12, 2005, 10:58:56 AM
Was it a case of Rasputin v. Nicholas? Surely he could not have liked the way Rasputin controlled his wife?

I remember reading in one book that the Tsar generally gave into Rasputin for his wife's sake, because she would turn hysterical otherwise.
Title: Re: Rasputin & Nicholas
Post by: Grigorevna on May 01, 2005, 08:13:20 AM
I have the impression that Nicholas at first enjoyed the company of Gregory Yefimovich, but that became more and more reluctant. Remember that, when G.E shared his opinion on the war in a telegram, he is said to have torn the telegram apart. (A statement that I find quite plausible. This is not a smearing rumor as so many other things about Nicholas.) And during 1916, when Nicholas was at the front all ministers were appointed, he wrote home:

9 september
"Our Friends ideas about men are sometimes queer, as you know - so one must be careful especially in nominations of high people. All these changes exhaust the head. I find they happen much too often. It is certainly not at all good for the interior of the country, because every new man brings changes also to the administration."

10 november:
"While these changes go on the Duma will be shut for 8 days (...) In any case Trepov will try and do his best. He comes back, on Sunday I think, with a list of names, which we have spoken about with Mm. and him. Only please don't mix in our Friend! It is I who carry the responsibility and I want to be free to chose accordigly."

Qoutes from "A lifelong passion - Nicholas and Alexandra - Their own story"  Diarys and letters from 1884 to 1918. Magnificent book.

//Grigorevna
Title: Re: Rasputin & Nicholas
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 01, 2005, 09:47:28 AM
Wonderful answer Grigorevna,
Thanks for the quotes.  :)
Title: Re: Rasputin & Nicholas
Post by: Lass on May 02, 2005, 05:46:05 PM
Yes, thank you. :)
Title: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 20, 2007, 10:56:22 PM
Has anyone thought of the possibility that the Tsar may have been involved in Rasputin's death? 
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 20, 2007, 10:59:47 PM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

That's just ludacris in my opinion. I mean, he exiled Prince Felix Yussoupov and Dimitri after he found out they were involved, and he wouldn't have wanted to cause that much stress on Alix in my opinion. He was after all the only hope Alexis had.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 21, 2007, 01:51:15 AM
Plus he was not intelligent enough to do such a thing. Just not in his character at all
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 21, 2007, 07:30:07 AM
I am thinking about human nature. 
Plus he was not intelligent enough to do such a thing. Just not in his character at all

Maybe someone can be brilliant enough to come across a certain way but in reality be very different. I think he was very capable of doing many things. He had to know how Rasputin was negatively effecting the monarchy.  Secondly, why would a man stand by while his wife went on and on about another man.  I don't care what he was, what he siad, or what he did, I do not think a man, especially in those days would just sit by and let things go on.  As for the idea that his wife would be upset if Rasputin was gone, I think his thought was, "She is always sick and falling apart anyway, so what is the difference."
   If we look at human nature and look at how people react to events in their lives and we see similarities, why can we not assume the the Tsar, being human, did not feel the same way.
   The question of Alexis. When was the last time Rasputin "healed" him.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 21, 2007, 08:58:31 AM
The Emperor was absolutely NOT involved in any way shape form or manner in R's death.  The first hand historical record evidence is compelling on this issue.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 21, 2007, 01:41:14 PM
The Emperor was absolutely NOT involved in any way shape form or manner in R's death.  The first hand historical record evidence is compelling on this issue.

Has anyone throughout history EVER taken the blame for someone else, to protect them because of loyalty. According to your statement, you sound as if you are saying it is not possible and has never occured. As for me, I like to look outside of the box. I think actual human nature is more compelling than something I read in a book. Do you believe every eyewitness account you have read? Before making a statement such as "absolutely not", why not just take a moment to think about this idea.  Yes, most everything discussed today is speculation, but what is wrong with that?  Nothing is really 100%. Why wouldn't the Tsar want him dead?  What is so beyond believe about that.  I think he thought about it, and if he did it, good for him. As for the first hand historical records, don't you think that if I was writing an account of someone I loved and was loyal too, I would not write anything to smear there names in anyway?  All the firsthand accounts about the Tsar and his family were written by those who were closes to them, therefore they were the ones who were loyal. I think that we may not have a true sense of who they were (i.e. all aspects of there personalities). And you have to know that if the Tsar was involved, he would never have broadcasted it. These people were not idiots, I am quite certain that they could come up with plans and secrets and ideas like we do today.  They were human, they had feelings and emotions and they most certainly reacted to them. Understand, I love this family as if they were my own, but I like to look at the family from the eyes of the 21st century. Human nature probably has not changed much since they were around. Could you at least agree on that point? :)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 21, 2007, 04:07:12 PM
I think if Nicholas wanted Rasputin gone, he would have sent him into exile. I also think he had no problem with the faith Alexandra put in Rasputin, it was a way for her to cope with her son's illness.

Most importantly above all, there is no evidence that Nicholas had anything to do with Rasputin's murder.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 21, 2007, 04:48:26 PM
You wrote: Yes, most everything discussed today is speculation, but what is wrong with that?   Nothing is "wrong" with that, but remember that all it will be IS speculation, not fact.  There is NO evidence to support your speculation beyond mere supposition.  Well, whenever faced with this question I respond thusly

"How do we know that a small fishing boat from Canada didn't pick up survivors of the Titanic, took them back to Newfoundland and their descendants live there today?"  Its certainly possible, but there is no evidence to support it...so whats the point? I will take the first hand accounts of Spiridovich, Lili Dehn, and all those who were THERE at the time, had no reason to prevaricate (like Felix or Dmitri would have) and wrote their honest accounts over speculation any day.


Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 21, 2007, 09:05:45 PM
I did not mean that I think the Tsar pulled the trigger or was present at the murder.  I do believe that Dmitri and Felix killed him, but I wonder if the Tsar did not mention the idea at some point. I really do not see it to be unbelievable.  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 21, 2007, 09:13:16 PM
But do you really think Nicholas would have sent them into exile if he was involved all along? I think not.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: vladm on May 21, 2007, 09:47:48 PM
I think regardless of the Rasputin's attitude and behavior (if it was real at all), Nicholas would always guard his (Rasputin’s life). Until Alexy’s would produce heir to the throne.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 22, 2007, 04:12:07 AM
  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.
Where did you read Dimitri's account? As far as I know, he remained silent on the subject and his thoughts died with him.
But I understand your point- "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest ?" But it still is beyond the realm of possibility, knowing what we do of NII.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 22, 2007, 08:15:21 AM
But do you really think Nicholas would have sent them into exile if he was involved all along? I think not.

Is it really hard to see Dmitri saying, "I will handle this for you?"  Obviously if the Tsar did not exile Dmitri, it would have looked suspicious. Couldn't he have placed Dmitri in prison instead? The Tsar, I truly believe, knew the state of affairs in his country by this time and could certainly have thought Dmitri would have been better off out of the country.  Did he suffer greatly in exile and did not his exile save his life?
How does true loyalty show itself? Did a man, out of loyalty to his country, not fly a plane into a naval ship in Pearl Harbour, full well knowing it would end his life? How many soldiers, out of loyalty to a fellow soldier, lost their lives, to save another?

  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.
Where did you read Dimitri's account? As far as I know, he remained silent on the subject and his thoughts died with him.
But I understand your point- "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest ?" But it still is beyond the realm of possibility, knowing what we do of NII.

Actually I think it was just Felix's account.  So if Dmitri remained silent, that seems to be even more compelling that he could have been protecting the Tsar, if he were involved. As for something being "beyond the realm of possibility", I would say my rabbit speaking Japanese would be beyond the realm of possibilty or the tree outside my window pulling itself out of the ground and running down the street.  These type of things I see as beyond the realm of possibility, not the idea that the Tsar, being human, could have come up with a great plan to get rid of Rasputin.
Now, you say "knowing what we know about NII", could you clarify what you mean? Thanks.



Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2007, 08:56:42 AM
Dmitri and Felix took the whole blame on themselves because they KNEW Nicholas II couldn't punish them more than beyond exile. Any other co-conspirators who were not of the Imperial Blood could face severe punishment even death.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: imperial angel on May 22, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
It is interesting to think outside the box when it comes to history, etc, but there are some things that most certainly didn't happen. This is one of them. Certainly, some people in that position might have done that with regards to Nicholas II, and what he might have done/ didn't do. Rasputin was an issue for the country, but Nicholas although he undoubtedly must have had more conflicted feelings than his wife about Rasputin, wasn't about to do something like this, for all of the reasons provided earlier on this thread.

If he had, I dare say that there would have been some trace, some slip, and someone earlier than the person who started this thread would have caught it, or it would at least have featured as a conspiracy theory or a rumor somewhere among the vast material on the end of the Romanovs, including Rasputin's death. Someone would have raised it by now, even though it might have been obvious it wasn't true. The best evidence to me this never happened is the fact that no one has mentioned it by now in a book or anything, with proof or no, as far as my knowledge goes. If not, enlighten me. The decoy theory of AA has more possibility than this, and that is something that has sort of been raised before, in the kids movie Anastasia, just a bit.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: RichC on May 22, 2007, 04:08:59 PM
I did not mean that I think the Tsar pulled the trigger or was present at the murder.  I do believe that Dmitri and Felix killed him, but I wonder if the Tsar did not mention the idea at some point. I really do not see it to be unbelievable.  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.

I suppose one could claim that if Nicholas wanted Rasputin removed, the best way would have been to have had Rasputin killed and make it look like someone else was responsible -- that way Nicholas would be off the hook with the Tsarina.  Exile would not be an option in this scenario, because Alexandra would work night and day to bring him back to Petersburg.  With Rasputin dead, the Empress could not hound Nicholas to bring him back from an enforced exile.

But the downside to having members of the family involved would have been too great.  One has to remember that killing Rasputin (regardless of who was behind it) did nothing to avert the revolution.  One could make a good argument that the participation of royal kin only did more damage to the monarchy and the prestige of the Romanov family.  I think Nicholas realized that at the time (although many others did not).  So, it seems extremely unlikely that Nicholas would have resorted to enlisting family members to take part in the plot.  Besides, Nicholas had vast resources at his disposal to get rid of Rasputin without sullying his hands or the hands of any of his relatives or noblemen.  Rasputin could simply have been found dead somewhere and nobody would have been the wiser.  Or one of Rasputin's known enemies (non-royal, non-noble) could have been "helped" along in committing the deed.

So, I would conclude, based solely on what we know about how Rasputin was killed and who was involved (I realize some details are still murky), it would indicate that Nicholas was definitely NOT involved.  Again, I'm basing this merely on the way the murder was carried out. 

If Nicholas was involved, it would have happened differently.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2007, 05:10:27 PM
I think RichC has hit the nail on the head.  Nicholas II had not only enormous resources of money and power at the time, he also had the Okhrana, Secret security police, and lord knows how many loyal people (even that late) who could have made Rasputin disappear so totally that not even the body would be found "if" he had actually wanted it to be so.  The killing itself was so very sloppy, the body was discovered so readily and the evidence of the murder itself speak to the fact that whoever may have pulled the trigger, they were amateurs.   Nicholas would have made sure his people "if" he had wanted R. murdered were far more professional at the task.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on May 22, 2007, 07:08:43 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Nicholas and Alexandra were deeply distrustful of the police.  Alix particularly because of Rasputin.  I thought the police tracked the IF's movements as much as enemies of the state.

Looking at the scenerio Charley proposes and how men can often behave with ill wives especially those of a whinny nature, I could see Nicholas proposing this "mission" to Dmitri.  Up until the time of Rasputin's death, he seemed to be one of the few family members who was close to the Tsar and spent much time with him.

I wonder if anyone has the answer to the question Charley proposed about the last time Rasputin healed Alexei.  I think that could be significant as to whether or not Nicholas valued his services.  I would imagine there must have been some doubt in his mind after the whole Spala thing.  I am not aware of any other "faith healer" who performs miracles long distance.  Also I can't remember the name of the book but it was written by a FR. Walsh, a catholic priest of all things, who was in Russia at this time.  He talked about how Anna V. would administer herbs to Alexei.  I never saw anything else to verify that claim in other sources but found it interesting.  I just wonder how much Rasputin actually did,  Alexei rode a sled down a staircase during the IF's captivity and he managed to survive that just fine.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 22, 2007, 07:50:13 PM
The decoy theory of AA has more possibility than this, and that is something that has sort of been raised before, in the kids movie Anastasia, just a bit.
lol And that in itself is pretty implausible.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2007, 08:02:44 PM
Look, it did NOT happen. unless and until someone can come up with genuine EVIDENCE beyond mere speculation this subject is closed. We have repeatedly stated that this forum is for the discussion of FACTS or EVIDENCE and not speculation. If you want to speculate on such rubbish, find another place.

FA
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 22, 2007, 08:05:04 PM
Look, it did NOT happen. unless and until someone can come up with genuine EVIDENCE beyond mere speculation this subject is closed. We have repeatedly stated that this forum is for the discussion of FACTS or EVIDENCE and not speculation. If you want to speculate on such rubbish, find another place.

FA

I have to agree. Endless specualtion with no geniune evidence gets us nowhere.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 22, 2007, 08:08:04 PM
 ???
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: RichC on May 22, 2007, 08:43:56 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Nicholas and Alexandra were deeply distrustful of the police.  Alix particularly because of Rasputin.  I thought the police tracked the IF's movements as much as enemies of the state.

Where is this coming from?  I never heard or read that Nicholas and Alexandra were "deeply distrustful of the police".  The police tracked the IF's movements the same way that the Secret Service tracks the movements of President Bush, his family, and hundreds of other government officials.  Same idea.  You are just making up stuff here.

Looking at the scenerio Charley proposes and how men can often behave with ill wives especially those of a whinny nature, I could see Nicholas proposing this "mission" to Dmitri.  Up until the time of Rasputin's death, he seemed to be one of the few family members who was close to the Tsar and spent much time with him.

Again you are making things up.  Ridiculous but unintentionally funny.  How many men, "with ill wives especially those of a whiny nature", resort to murder?  Also, why kill Rasputin?  Why not just have Dmitri kill the whiny-natured ill wife instead?

I just wonder how much Rasputin actually did,  Alexei rode a sled down a staircase during the IF's captivity and he managed to survive that just fine.

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

That's right.  Alexei survived the sled accident "just fine".  He was seen doing cartwheels in front of the Ipatiev house right before the execution.

Shall we move this thread to the "Having Fun" section.  I'm having a good time.

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2007, 09:09:21 PM
???

Do you not understand that speculation without evidence to support the suppositions is USELESS? We are not here to engage in a series of "what if" speculative threads. We are used by Universities, High Schools and elementary schools and thus we have a responsibilty to keep discussion based in fact not speculative fiction.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on May 22, 2007, 09:17:17 PM
Well it looks like Charley has been shut down again.  It's interesting because her threads always generate alot of buzz.  183 views to this thread and 21 replies.  I guess some of us enjoy these discussions.  My question would be, what is the issue.  Those that don't want to participate don't have to.  Charley was not posing this as fact but as a what if scenerio.  It's interesting because the thread is never shut down with Charley's initial questions which can be a little "out there".  If these types of discussions are not allowed than why is the thread allowed to start.  It's frustrating when you get interested in a topic and it is struck down after you have invested time in it.  I'm sure there are many who would rather have you kill the thread immediately.  I just wonder what Charley wrote that was so controversial it couldn't be posted.  


As to Rich c., you are so kind! I hope during my time here I have given everyone due respect.  
The Police: That is the impression I took away from my readings, at this time can I quote you every page or document no.  As I said that was the impression I had.  I did not "make this up".

Ill wife:  I can agree I didn't express myself very clearly and am too tired at this point to rewrite my point so I conceed on this one.  

As to Alexei, by survive, I meant live; not dancing a jig.  The point being he suffered a bout of his illness and recovered without Rasputin.

I'll be honest with you guys.  I just cannot believe how mean some posters can be on this sight.  If I was a young person doing research for a report or pursuing an interest in the IF, I would be devastated by some of the comments I've seen posted on this forum.  I not refering only to ones directed at me, they have been very mild compared to some on the forum.  I just don't understand why someone has to resort to personal attacks to make their point.  I'm sure it's easier and more fun to go for the cheapshot.

It is interesting to me how everyone of us posting here has probably all read the same 20 or so books most of which use the same sources, repeating the same stories with slightly different spins and we all take away different impressions.  There are quite a few "experts" on the forum and I'm sure we all know who we are.  Something about this story fasinates us, causes us to read unceasingly, blow small fortunes on "rare books" of dubious quality, spend hours looking for something "new" on the web but the one thing that ties us all together is our love for this family and this story which we can't seem to let go of.  So my plea is can we show each other a little mutual respect and enjoy our shared passion

Thank-you


Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2007, 09:25:40 PM
I allow such threads to start because I always hope that perhaps the poster has some evidence to support the topic, I always allow the discussion time to hopefully bring in some genuine evidence beyond mere fictional supposition before getting strict. Is that a problem?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: TheAce1918 on May 22, 2007, 10:04:11 PM
I don't see any problem.

But I've gotten to thinking.  Perhaps there should be a sub-forum beneath the already existant Having Fun thread.  Entitled the Alternative Forum, or What-If thread.  This thread would be open to those who like to really tweak with the often vulnerable edges of history.  It would contain all the AA threads, speculative court cases, and other things of the sort. 

After all, authors do this, and millions dive into their words.

Just a suggestion.   :-\
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 23, 2007, 03:27:43 AM
I agree with Ace :D There should be a "what if" section for conspiracy theories ;D

But I must say Alexei was certainly not doing just fine after his sled accident. He couldn't walk for the last weeks of his life, and had to be carried to the cellar on the night of the execution by Nicholas. One has to wonder, would this have been the case of Rasputin would have still been alive?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 23, 2007, 09:25:36 AM
The "Having Fun" threads were started to BE the place where "what if" discussions are to take place, it is already there.

As for the IF's feelings about the Imperial Secret Personal Police, Alexandra hated them.  She never understood the vital importance of their following her every move outside the Palace walls.  Please don't forget their mission was NOT to keep tabs on what the IF was doing or where they were going. That information was only to support their main purpose which was to PROTECT the IF from harm. The radical movements at the time were always looking to somehow blow up or kill members of the Imperial Family.

Nicholas, fully aware of the ultimate fate of his grandfather and uncle Serge, had a much different perspective.  When asked to disband the Secret Personal Police at one point he said "I need only to glance behind me and see my good Sprirdovitch keeping watchful eye and know that I am safe".  The subject was closed and never brought up again.  Spiridovitch was later highly rewarded for his service to the Emperor when Nicholas promoted him to General and appointed him in the plum job as Governor of Yalta.

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 23, 2007, 04:48:33 PM
I allow such threads to start because I always hope that perhaps the poster has some evidence to support the topic, I always allow the discussion time to hopefully bring in some genuine evidence beyond mere fictional supposition before getting strict. Is that a problem?

No, what do you think I was doing? Some people are not online everyday.  People go out of town, etc.  I was hoping that maybe with 1 million people a month on this site, that just maybe something new would come up, not the same things over again. I just wondered if people take things the way they are written or if they question things and wonder about what happened that wasn't documented. That's all.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 24, 2007, 12:22:42 AM
I allow such threads to start because I always hope that perhaps the poster has some evidence to support the topic, I always allow the discussion time to hopefully bring in some genuine evidence beyond mere fictional supposition before getting strict. Is that a problem?

No, what do you think I was doing? Some people are not online everyday.  People go out of town, etc.  I was hoping that maybe with 1 million people a month on this site, that just maybe something new would come up, not the same things over again. I just wondered if people take things the way they are written or if they question things and wonder about what happened that wasn't documented. That's all.
Just wondering Charley, but then why didn't you just ask, "Does anyone know of any existing evidence that the tsar was involved in Rasputin's murder?"
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 24, 2007, 12:59:21 PM
Well, I kind of thought that I was asking that? I did put a question mark at the end of the subject. I didn't say I had evidence to share.  Is that the problem here.  Do people misread the question or think you are trying to say something your not? I didn't spend hours thinking about how to word the question. This is where I am coming from, I think that every stone has not been unturned. I read a book one time and was discussing it with someone else who had read the book thoroughly and was quite boastful about it.  Then I asked her what she thought about a certain part.  She said, "I never read that in the book before."  "That is such a big deal, I certainly would not have missed that."  I said it is on page 432, second paragraph down. (actually I would have to check the page again) She couldn't believe that she missed it. So, I am sure there are still little clues out there in a book, story, etc., that may shed more light. I am constantly looking for them and I was hoping someone over time may come on the site and say, "Oh, I remember reading or seeing or hearing something." I understand this site is about facts and evidence, but what do you have before you uncover the facts/evidence?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on May 24, 2007, 02:30:21 PM
Yet again someone asking questions without actually doing any basic research.  Has the internet destroyed the spirit of genuine enquiry and the art of actually going looking for new material.  Or are we going to chase the same questions and answers round and round until we end up like the fabulous Oozelum bird............ or have we got there already?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: TheAce1918 on May 24, 2007, 02:55:54 PM
Yet again someone asking questions without actually doing any basic research.  Has the internet destroyed the spirit of genuine enquiry and the art of actually going looking for new material.  Or are we going to chase the same questions and answers round and round until we end up like the fabulous Oozelum bird............ or have we got there already?

Indeed the internet has done so in many ways.  That's why I always trust libraries and professors more.  The internet serves as only a backdrop for info to me.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 24, 2007, 03:07:09 PM
Yet again someone asking questions without actually doing any basic research.  Has the internet destroyed the spirit of genuine enquiry and the art of actually going looking for new material.  Or are we going to chase the same questions and answers round and round until we end up like the fabulous Oozelum bird............ or have we got there already?

Are you refering to my intial questions or something else?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on May 24, 2007, 07:07:15 PM
I think RichC has hit the nail on the head.  Nicholas II had not only enormous resources of money and power at the time, he also had the Okhrana, Secret security police, and lord knows how many loyal people (even that late) who could have made Rasputin disappear so totally that not even the body would be found "if" he had actually wanted it to be so.  The killing itself was so very sloppy, the body was discovered so readily and the evidence of the murder itself speak to the fact that whoever may have pulled the trigger, they were amateurs.   Nicholas would have made sure his people "if" he had wanted R. murdered were far more professional at the task.

FA is correct.

Nikolai reqested his Minister of Internal Affairs to organize protection. Rasputin was not only under 24hr police surveillance after Guseva attempted to murder Rasputin in 1914, but the Palace Okhrana were interested in his welfare as well.

He was murdered after the surveillance team was called off following the independent instruction from the Police Department.

Margarita
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 24, 2007, 09:19:29 PM
He was murdered after the surveillance team was called off following the independent instruction from the Police Department.

Margarita[/color]

Why were they instructed to back away? Didn't the Tsar have the ultimate control over what the Police and Okhrana did? Did he have full access to what they did?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 24, 2007, 09:27:53 PM
"Why" the Okhrana surveillance agents were ordered to stand down is explained by Spridovitch as follows:  The order came from Protopopov, who was a regular visitor to Rasputin, virtually daily at that time, and he wanted to visit Rasputin, but not have his appearance at Rasputin's flat be on the official record of his own office.  Further, while Protopopov was visiting R. that fatal night, he was very nervous and begged R. not to go out again that night "for any reason at all."
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on May 24, 2007, 09:51:06 PM
Nikolai was far away at Stavka.

The conspirators needed a small window of opportunity (a few hours during the night) to achieve their intended result.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on May 24, 2007, 09:54:18 PM
"Why" the Okhrana surveillance agents were ordered to stand down is explained by Spridovitch as follows:  The order came from Protopopov, who was a regular visitor to Rasputin, virtually daily at that time, and he wanted to visit Rasputin, but not have his appearance at Rasputin's flat be on the official record of his own office.  Further, while Protopopov was visiting R. that fatal night, he was very nervous and begged R. not to go out again that night "for any reason at all."

Indeed Protopopov's name does not conveniently appear in the Police register (I have a copy) of all persons who had ever interfaced with Rasputin.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 25, 2007, 04:06:30 PM
and he wanted to visit Rasputin, but not have his appearance at Rasputin's flat be on the official record of his own office. 

Why was this?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 25, 2007, 04:23:31 PM
because it would not look good publicly if one of the Emperor's Ministers was visiting R. every day. Charley you really need to start doing your own reading and research...

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on May 25, 2007, 11:03:01 PM
because it would not look good publicly if one of the Emperor's Ministers was visiting R. every day.

Some like Generals Spiridovich (4 times) and Mosolov (3 times) had to as a matter of necessity.

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 26, 2007, 10:30:37 AM
Well, true Belochka, but Spiridovitch and Mossolov were going for VERY different reasons that Protopopov, who was one of his ardent supporters and believers.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on May 26, 2007, 10:15:31 PM
I must apologise for my earlier hasty reply where I stated that Alexander Protopopov was not recorded in the police register. That information was incorrect.

Rasputin visited the Minister of Internal Affairs on 5 separate occasions, while Protopopov returned the favor twice.

Margarita  :-[
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 26, 2007, 11:41:04 PM
Charley you really need to start doing your own reading and research...

I apologize that I am not a great reader, but I do research and read some.  I do not have access to all the books you probably have or the time. One of the Forum Administrators implied this was a site for education. As far as reading and research, how do you know what is true or not?  You have what appears to be a reputable scientist say one thing and then you have another reputable scientist say something different. You read something in a newspaper and then you post here, but your told it isn't true, they lied.  It is confusing to say the least.  Who is the ultimate authority? I am sure some newbies and students would be interested as well. Some of us are not PhD's.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 27, 2007, 10:00:20 AM
Charley
You have to take that chip off your shoulder.  Nobody is expecting that users be Phd's. Nobody is asking that users have complete libraries.  The problem is that you, like many users, want everything handed to you by OTHERS who have already done the work. I'm suggesting the YOU do the work yourself, so that you actually understand the subject, instead of asking the same basic questions that others have asked before.

This is of course a site devoted to education, but there comes a time where your OWN reasearch will serve you better than taking the easy way out of just asking someone else to hand you the answer.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 28, 2007, 10:09:48 AM
RichC said...

"Again you are making things up.  Ridiculous but unintentionally funny.  How many men, "with ill wives especially those of a whiny nature", resort to murder?  Also, why kill Rasputin?  Why not just have Dmitri kill the whiny-natured ill wife instead?"

I am sorry, RichC, but that made me laugh.   :D

Charley, I am sorry, too.  I understand what you are trying to ask, but Nicholas has been quoted as saying it would be better to have ten Rasputins than one angry Alexandra.  (I am sure, since I don't have my sources open, that my quote is not accurate word for word, but everyone should get the point)

I myself, have doubts about Rasputin's ability to "heal" Alexis. (However, he could not heal him by eliminating the source of the problem, the hemophaelia)  he could only "band aid" it.  And I have also wondered about the fact that Alexis lived without Rasputin for over a year and a half and managed to not die.  Not that he wasn't injured, because he was, but even when Rasputin was "healing him" Alexis still had very long recovery times.  He didn't get up and "dance the jig" the day after Rasputin saw him.

Nicholas was between a very big rock and a very hard place when it came to Rasputin.  But he truly loved his wife and son and so would do whatever it took to make both of them happy.  I doubt that the words "tough love" had been invented yet.



Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 29, 2007, 03:19:14 AM


I myself, have doubts about Rasputin's ability to "heal" Alexis. (However, he could not heal him by eliminating the source of the problem, the hemophaelia)  he could only "band aid" it.  And I have also wondered about the fact that Alexis lived without Rasputin for over a year and a half and managed to not die.  Not that he wasn't injured, because he was, but even when Rasputin was "healing him" Alexis still had very long recovery times.  He didn't get up and "dance the jig" the day after Rasputin saw him.






But he certainly was up and walking much sooner.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 29, 2007, 08:04:01 AM
Was he really, though?  What about the long recovery times and the harsh braces and the mud baths, etc?

I am going to have to look into my sources, but all that Rasputin was reputed to have done was to calm the child and his mother and to perhaps slow the bleeding.  The re-absorption time was not increased by Rasputin.

Even Massie says that the connection between Alix and Alexis was so strong (as is with every mother and child) that just calming Alix would help to calm Alexis and so would aid in recovery.

And Alix was such a religious zealot and her unwavering belief that Rasputin could help would immediately allow her to relax and put Alexis "in God's hands' (through Rasputin, of course).  Her overwhelming anxiety would communicate itself to Alexis and Rasputin would take that overwhelming anxiety away from her even if it was only in her own mind.

I know that there were reports of Alexis being at 'death's door' and the next day sitting up (weakly) and smiling, but I don't remember that his physical recovery times were aided in any way or shortened by Rasputin.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Sarushka on May 29, 2007, 09:29:05 AM
Was he really, though?  What about the long recovery times and the harsh braces and the mud baths, etc?

I am going to have to look into my sources, but all that Rasputin was reputed to have done was to calm the child and his mother and to perhaps slow the bleeding.  The re-absorption time was not increased by Rasputin.
[snip]

I know that there were reports of Alexis being at 'death's door' and the next day sitting up (weakly) and smiling, but I don't remember that his physical recovery times were aided in any way or shortened by Rasputin.

That's my impression as well. I'm thinking in particular about the many months following the Spala crisis where Aleksei couldn't walk or fully extend his leg. Of course, we have no way of knowing how long recovery and reabsorption might have taken without Rasputin  ;) but I think the aftermath of Spala is a pretty good indicator of Rasputin's limited "power."
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 29, 2007, 09:31:27 AM
Spiridovitch, "Les Dernieres Annees...." Vol. 2 Ch. 12 "The Year 1912""
They called the surgeon Serge Petrovitch Fyedorov from Petersburg, and the old Rauchfuss.  They arrived on October 4th, the night before Alexis Nicholaiovitch's Name's day. The illness got worse.  October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate.  Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred.
   After this diagnosis, the Minister of the Court was permitted to publish bulletins on the health of the Tsarevitch.  The first bulletin was dated October 8th.  They began to hold services in Spala to pray for a cure for the Tsarevitch.  In the Palace they would hear of no other help from the doctors, and only believed in God.  They gave the last rites to the child.  The catastrophe was expected from one day to the next.  The suffering child was plainly aware that his death was near.
   "Mama, don't forget to put a little monument on my tomb when I'm dead" he whispered one day into his mother's ear, who crazy with suffering, would not leave his side for an instant. (Sabline told me this later, who had been told it from the Empress herself.)
   It seemed that all was over.  The crisis approached.  And it was at this critical moment that Their Majesties received a telegram from Rasputin which read:
   "The illness will not be dangerous. Do not let the doctors make him tired."
   In a second telegram, the "staryets" said that he had prayed, that God had heard his prayers and had granted them.
   And then an incredible thing happened: the Tsarevitch began to get better and to go into recovery.
   His mother, in all her happiness, saw only one thing: his health had come back from her "friend", and it had been his prayers that had saved the life of her child.
   From that moment on, the Empress's faith in Rasputin was unshakeable and there was no force in the world that would ever alienate the "staryets" from the friendship of the Imperial Family.
 

(translation from the original French copyright Rob Moshein 2004-2007)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 29, 2007, 09:39:41 AM
Didn't Massie say that Rasputin's advice "Do not let the doctor's make him tired" or from N&A "Do not let the doctors bother him too much."  made perfect sense?

That all of the poking and prodding would be detrimental?  Also, by calming Alix, Rasputin's telegram removed a lot of the tension that surrounded Alexis.

Also, I agree with Fyedorov.  I can't imagine opening the swelling to relieve the pressure and having the Tsarevich "bleed out".

Does that prove that Rasputin had "healing" powers?  It is a strange occurance but is it unexplainable?   ???
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 29, 2007, 10:06:20 AM
The original French is : La Maladie ne parait pas dangereuse.  Que les medecins ne le fatiquent pas."  There is no other clear translation other than "Do not let the doctors make him tired."

Also, what does it actually "matter" that it can be explained? The reality of the situation and its undertanding is only important as to what Alexandra, Nicholas, Alexi, the Grand Duchesses,  the Court and others BELIEVED, not some scientific explanation almost 100 years later.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Greenowl on May 29, 2007, 11:28:40 AM
In my humble opinion I feel that it is important to try to explain or understand what happened at Spala, as on the face of it, it does seem remarkable that a telegram from Rasputin appeared to have started the healing process when the doctors had more or less given up hope. I have always assumed that Rasputin had skills akin to those of a horse whisperer. I saw a horse whisperer in action with my own eyes about six weeks ago. I am not sure what happened, but a horse that was terrified of entering an arena and that trembled, bucked, shied and reared when forced to do so had a "conversation" with a whisperer. The very next day the horse entered the arena without any problem and, while slightly nervous, behaved normally. Since then the horse goes into the arena most days and jumps or does dressage excercises without any problem and no longer exhibits the slightest trace of fear. I find it difficult to believe that the whisperer communicated directly with the horse. However, she may have had an effect on the horse's owner and riders, and when she told them the horse was fine they believed her, had confidence that all was well, which probably communicated itself to the horse. Anyway, I cannot explain it, but it did produce an effect, in the same ways as Rasputin's telegram appears to have done. On the subject of Rasputin: he is said to have foretold the assassination of Peter Stolypin about 24 hours before the event...when he saw Stolypin he is supposed to have started shouting "death is behind him" or something like that. I raised this topc on another thread but received no reply to my question. While I enjoy the forum very much I often find it frustrating that when I ask questions or raise what I consider to be an interesting point I receive no reply or feedback (with the exception of the Hohenzollern and Windsor threads, about which I have no complaint)....sorry for the digression, but just though I would take the opportunity to air my "complaint"!!

Best wishes,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 29, 2007, 01:26:33 PM
There are people who would seem to "precognitive" abilities.  Rasputin did seem to know things.  Like Stolypin's murder and that Nicholas should keep Russia out of the Great War.

On another thread, the last letter from Rasputin about his death, was posted to be a forgery.  The one in which he tells the Imperial Family that if one of them had killed him that they would all die within three years.  While it is quite true that they lost their throne, not everyone died within three years.

I have never seen a horse whisperer, but I have known people who seemed to "know" what was going to happen and not just in a general way either.  One prophecy (if you can call it that) was about a person who had cancer and was dying.  The woman who seemed to know said that while the cancer patient would live to see her 50th wedding anniversary (which was June 23) she would not live to see the Fourth of July.  The cancer patient died on July 3rd.

I still get shivers when I remember that.  That was not just a general "she will die soon" that was a specific time period.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 29, 2007, 02:26:21 PM
While it is of course important to understand what happened at Spala, THIS thread is to discuss was the "Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?".  So, please take discussion about the physiological effects of any R may have had on Alexei over to the "Incident at Spala" thread where MUCH has been discussed.

HERE the only relevance is what Nicholas, Alexandra or others BELIEVED had happened, which would have, or not have, influenced their actions.

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 29, 2007, 10:28:06 PM
Wasn't Rasputin very into herbs and such. Didn't he get his medicines from a "Doctor" named Bahtmadiev (sp) or something? If he was using some sort of tonic on Alexis, could the Tsar have uncovered how Rasputin went about his "healings". If that was the main reason he kept him around, he would no longer need him. How do you think the Tsar really felt about Rasputin's death? He probably couldn't say much in his diary knowing his wife could read it at anytime. Didn't the Tsarina recover very quickly after his death?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 30, 2007, 07:37:42 AM
I don't believe that Alix "recovered quickly" after Rasputin's death.  She mourned him as she would any close friend and had him buried in the Tsarskoe Selo Park Grounds.

She also took immediate action in trying to have both Dimitri and Felix arrested, but since only the Tsar can arrest immediate family members, she had no power.

Of course she harangued Nicholas with her thoughts and wants in the situation.

Did she have a nervous breakdown?  No, it isn't documented.  She was a strong woman no matter how much we read of her "physical ailments" and her alleged 'mental' deficiencies.  And the hurt didn't stop with Rasputin's murder. 

Measles struck the palace.  Nicholas abdicated.  The family was imprisoned in their own home.  Then came the rejection from England for asylum.

The woman didn't have time to sit and mourn, although I believe that she did mourn quietly for the rest of her short time on earth.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 30, 2007, 11:26:35 AM
I just read the letters from Alix to Nicky. The night R was murdered and the next day, her letters talk about various subjects and even included gossip related to Anna V.  She barely mentioned him being missing until the end.  It really didn't seem to be that upsetting to her to mention it at the end as an afterthought. If she didn't want to bring it up with him right away, maybe she sensed or he even told her in private how he felt about R and therefore she was careful how she approached him in regards to the matter.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Greenowl on May 30, 2007, 05:59:44 PM
There are people who would seem to "precognitive" abilities.  Rasputin did seem to know things.  Like Stolypin's murder and that Nicholas should keep Russia out of the Great War.

On another thread, the last letter from Rasputin about his death, was posted to be a forgery.  The one in which he tells the Imperial Family that if one of them had killed him that they would all die within three years.  While it is quite true that they lost their throne, not everyone died within three years.

I have never seen a horse whisperer, but I have known people who seemed to "know" what was going to happen and not just in a general way either.  One prophecy (if you can call it that) was about a person who had cancer and was dying.  The woman who seemed to know said that while the cancer patient would live to see her 50th wedding anniversary (which was June 23) she would not live to see the Fourth of July.  The cancer patient died on July 3rd.

I still get shivers when I remember that.  That was not just a general "she will die soon" that was a specific time period.

Thanks for that Alixz! It is the old "chicken and egg" situation. The prediction about Stolypin's death is odd. On the other hand, his advice to Nicholas to keep Russia out of the war sounds more like common sense to me than an actual prophecy. As far as I know, he also warned Nicholas to ensure that the people had sufficient food...again, something that should have been obvious (but apparently was not). However, the Spala telegram is strange, as if he was only guessing he was taking a terrible risk, as he would have been exposed had Alexis died and probably lost all of his affluent followers. I had heard that his secretary (correct me if I'm wrong) forged the letter in which Rasputin is supposed to have told the Imperial Family that if one of them killed him they would all die within three years.

A horse whisperer does not actually predict the future, but suggests things and passes messages from the horse to humans and vice versa. With regard to the prophecy you mentioned: I wonder if that is not more in the nature of a suggestion...i.e. had the woman told the unfortunate cancer patient that she would live to see 4th. July would she have believed, clung on to life as a result, and passed away on 6th. instead of 3rd. July? Suggestion can be very strong (as proved by my encounter with the horse whisperer) and therefore I wonder if Rasputin's "skills" were not of that type?

Sorry for digressing!
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 30, 2007, 07:39:40 PM
Greenowl,

I did not explain my story clearly.  :)  The cancer patient was not told of the "prophecy", I was.  I never said anything to her or her family until after the person's death.  I didn't want them to have more sorrow as they believed that she was going to live a lot longer than that.

As for staying alive until her 50th wedding anniversary, I thought that that could have been pure determination and it was one of the most unsettling things I have ever been through.  The 50th anniversary party was like attending a wake and the person was still alive, but in a bed instead of a coffin.  (Alixz shivers as if cold)

However, I am digressing as well and FA has instructed us not to.

You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan.  One of the great mysteries of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 30, 2007, 09:34:19 PM
You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan. 

 I translated the words "La Maladie ne parait pas dangereuse" and my literal translation is "The Disease does not appear dangerous." Now with that being said, the doctors said he was dying, they had given up all hope and Rasputin says, "The disease does not appear dangerous", then the doctors would have been completely wrong in their diagnosis or Rasputin didn't really know what he was talking about. If it wasn't a serious illness, as he said, then it would have healed on its own anyway. I think this is actually relative to the question I initially asked because a big reason why some say the Tsar was not involved was because he needed Rasputin. Maybe he didn't after all.   
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: RichC on May 30, 2007, 10:34:18 PM
I just read the letters from Alix to Nicky. The night R was murdered and the next day, her letters talk about various subjects and even included gossip related to Anna V.  She barely mentioned him being missing until the end.  It really didn't seem to be that upsetting to her to mention it at the end as an afterthought. If she didn't want to bring it up with him right away, maybe she sensed or he even told her in private how he felt about R and therefore she was careful how she approached him in regards to the matter.

Much of Alexandra's letter to Nicholas of December 17th is about Rasputin's disappearance.  I don't see anything at all in it that would cause one to think Nicholas did not, in the main, share her feelings about Rasputin.   
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 30, 2007, 10:35:45 PM
I don't think that the Tsar needed Rasputin.  I think that Alix needed Rasputin and the Tsar wanted what Alix wanted.  And indeed there seemed to be a relationship between Rasputin's "prayers" and Alexis feeling better.

I don't think that Nicholas would have ordered the killing of Rasputin.  All he had to do was send him back to Pokrovskoe.  He did that at least once.  But Alix believed and Nicholas was, as I said before, between a very hard rock and very hard place.  How to keep sanity when his wife was badgering him and his son kept coming to the brink of death?

If Nicholas had asked anyone to kill Rasputin, I believe that he would have gone with "black ops" not his relatives.  Many people had disappeared over the years by the Tsar's command into Siberia and into prison.  I know that Rasputin had a large following, but it would have been ill advised for Nicholas to ask any member of his own family to kill someone whom he could just exile.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Greenowl on May 31, 2007, 06:22:47 AM
Greenowl,

I did not explain my story clearly.  :)  The cancer patient was not told of the "prophecy", I was.  I never said anything to her or her family until after the person's death.  I didn't want them to have more sorrow as they believed that she was going to live a lot longer than that.

As for staying alive until her 50th wedding anniversary, I thought that that could have been pure determination and it was one of the most unsettling things I have ever been through.  The 50th anniversary party was like attending a wake and the person was still alive, but in a bed instead of a coffin.  (Alixz shivers as if cold)

However, I am digressing as well and FA has instructed us not to.

You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan.  One of the great mysteries of the 20th century.

Thanks Alixz. That is most interesting and creepy. It is really difficult to know where the thin line is between an educated guess and a sixth sense. Apologies again to FA for digressing. Back to the topic under discussion: I agree with what you say and find it very difficult to imagine that Nicholas was in any way involved in Rasputin's murder, as he had little to gain and many other options at his disposal. I also believe that he would never have been disloyal/dishonest or act against Alexandra in such a way
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 31, 2007, 08:26:11 AM
Thanks Greenowl,

I also think that Nicholas (had he been involved) might have acted sooner.  Why wait until the war was underway and he was in Stavka to deal with something that could have been dealt with much much sooner.

Of course, Rasputin really didn't get as involved with politics and the government until Nicholas put Alexandra in charge of the government.  She was a pushover for Rasputin.  For Nicholas, not so much.

But I still believe that Nicholas would have just 'banished" Rasputin (which he tried to do earlier) or arrested him.  Nicholas does not seem Machiavellian.  He may have vacillated and delayed in making decisions, but he never plotted.

The only thing that comes to mind is that if Nicholas made an off hand remark in the presence of Zinaida Yusupov or Dimitri Pavlovich or even Grand Duchess Ella, someone might have taken it upon themselves to interpret the remark to mean that Nicholas would like to be rid of Rasputin and then acted on their own thinking that they were in tune with Nicholas's wishes on the subject.

But I still stand by the quote that 10 Rasputin's were better than one angry Alexandra.  IMHO that tells us what Nicholas truly thought about tolerating the starets.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 31, 2007, 09:03:07 AM
Let us also not forget that Nicholas II was presented with "reports" about how awful Rasputin was, once by Stolypin himself.  Nicholas had the claims of all three reports investigated, and it turned out that the majority of the worst reports were either exaggerated or out right fabrications.  After the third one, Nicholas pretty much stopped listening to further reports of Rasputin's alleged debaucheries, dismissing those who tried to tell him as just being jealous, petty or trying to remove Rasputin from Imperial favor.

Sadly, those who were trying to tell the truth about Rasputin did themselves a huge disfavor by not just being honest and by not actually double checking the veracity of claims presented.  They ended up helping Rasputin, rather than hurting him.

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 31, 2007, 01:09:31 PM
I guess we would have to ask if R caused any threat to the monarchy.  I thought his family was on him about Rasputin. Do you think he would appease one woman or the rest of his family who he believed, at the time, were trying to overthrow him? Was an upset wife more important than his monarchy?
 Also, with so much mysticism involved in Russia, and the Tsar's believe in it, it is possible that a legitmate starets, like Saint Seraphim (although he was already dead) may have told him that R was really bad news and would cause great harm to Russia.  We don't know if he had lived, what he would have done. The Tsar received letters of prophesy from two different sources. We do not know what was contained in the letters, but we also do not know if the letters mentioned a "man of God" who was not.



Much of Alexandra's letter to Nicholas of December 17th is about Rasputin's disappearance.  I don't see anything at all in it that would cause one to think Nicholas did not, in the main, share her feelings about Rasputin.  

I have the first publishing of the letters. The book is over eighty years old. The letter Tsarskoje, Dec. 17-th 1916 (no.404) only mentions Rasputin in a few paragraphs at the end of the letter. Eight paragraphs are completely unrelated to R.

Thanks Greenowl,
 but he never plotted.
And how do you know this? Does he say in his diary, "I am not a plotter." I am not trying to sound disrespectful, but I am constantly told I need proof to back up what I say. I am not mad or disgusted. On the contrary, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion.  Of course it would be nice to have one person think the way I do, but that's okay.
For you men out there who are married. Don't you, honestly, not divulge every feeling you have that goes against what your wife thinks? Maybe a pretty woman walks by and you think, oohhh, she is something. Are you actually going to tell your wife that? Or maybe that you think she drives you crazy at times, do you tell her?  I think not. My point is that the Tsar could have easily appeased his wife and knew exactly what she wanted to hear and went along with her to, "keep the peace". And because she felt that Nicholas was on the same page as her, would never have suspected him and therfore after the death of Rasputin, he would not have to deal with an angry wife, but a griefing one.
Two murderers were exiled, what happened to the third?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 31, 2007, 02:56:15 PM
Has anyone thought of the possibility that the Tsar may have been involved in Rasputin's death? 

I seriously doubt it.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on May 31, 2007, 03:14:48 PM
You are right, though, if Rasputin had sent that letter and Alexis had not survived, then Rasputin would have looked very silly and like a charlatan. 

 I translated the words "La Maladie ne parait pas dangereuse" and my literal translation is "The Disease does not appear dangerous." Now with that being said, the doctors said he was dying, they had given up all hope and Rasputin says, "The disease does not appear dangerous", then the doctors would have been completely wrong in their diagnosis or Rasputin didn't really know what he was talking about. If it wasn't a serious illness, as he said, then it would have healed on its own anyway. I think this is actually relative to the question I initially asked because a big reason why some say the Tsar was not involved was because he needed Rasputin. Maybe he didn't after all.   

This is about as ridiculous a statement as I have ever heard. There is no doubt whatsoever that Alexei was dying.  The physical swelling was obvious to everyone and the doctors who examined him knew what they were doing.  Nicholas believed Alexei would die. Alexandra and the girls all believed it. Alexei himself felt he would die. Rasputin was not even THERE, so how could he know himself about Alexei's illness? THIS statement is exactly why Charley you must start doing your own research. 
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on May 31, 2007, 06:25:27 PM
Charley,

Rasputin knew about the illness because a telegram was sent to him in Pokrovskoe.  His reply is what calmed Alexandra's fears and his advice not to allow the doctors to "tire" him too much was just good advice.  From the moment she received the reply she "believed" (as FA has said) that Alexei would get better.  And it is what Alexandra and those around Alexei believed that counts.

And Greenowl,

I don't have any source that tells me that NIcholas didn't plot.  But I do have sources that say that he was "shy, thoughtful and exceptionally polite."  The court of the Last Tsar by Greg King.  page 34    I am looking for more.  I'll post later.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 31, 2007, 06:27:15 PM
/quote]
This is about as ridiculous a statement as I have ever heard. There is no doubt whatsoever that Alexei was dying.  The physical swelling was obvious to everyone and the doctors who examined him knew what they were doing.  Nicholas believed Alexei would die. Alexandra and the girls all believed it. Alexei himself felt he would die. Rasputin was not even THERE, so how could he know himself about Alexei's illness? THIS statement is exactly why Charley you must start doing your own research. 

Obviously the boy was dying. I am well aware of that. My point is that if this man is a starets and people believe he healed Alexei with a letter or a note to the family at Spala, it seems pretty unlikely, seeing that he couldn't even get the diagnosis right. That is my point.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on May 31, 2007, 06:35:03 PM
Charley,
Rasputin knew about the illness because a telegram was sent to him in Pokrovskoe.  His reply is what calmed Alexandra's fears and his advice not to allow the doctors to "tire" him too much was just good advice.  From the moment she received the reply she "believed" (as FA has said) that Alexei would get better.  And it is what Alexandra and those around Alexei believed that counts.
Sorry I posted right when you did. Alexei wasn't better when the telegram was sent out.  Wasn't he still critical? Why would R say the disease does not appear dangerous. It was very much so.  Was he just saying that to make her happy and wasn't that risky on R's part if Alexei still might die?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 31, 2007, 09:55:28 PM
Let us also not forget that Nicholas II was presented with "reports" about how awful Rasputin was, once by Stolypin himself.  Nicholas had the claims of all three reports investigated, and it turned out that the majority of the worst reports were either exaggerated or out right fabrications.  After the third one, Nicholas pretty much stopped listening to further reports of Rasputin's alleged debaucheries, dismissing those who tried to tell him as just being jealous, petty or trying to remove Rasputin from Imperial favor.

Sadly, those who were trying to tell the truth about Rasputin did themselves a huge disfavor by not just being honest and by not actually double checking the veracity of claims presented.  They ended up helping Rasputin, rather than hurting him.


exactly. When people lie and exaggerate, it does the exact opposite of what they intended to do by lieing.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 31, 2007, 09:57:00 PM
Charley,
Rasputin knew about the illness because a telegram was sent to him in Pokrovskoe.  His reply is what calmed Alexandra's fears and his advice not to allow the doctors to "tire" him too much was just good advice.  From the moment she received the reply she "believed" (as FA has said) that Alexei would get better.  And it is what Alexandra and those around Alexei believed that counts.
Sorry I posted right when you did. Alexei wasn't better when the telegram was sent out.  Wasn't he still critical? Why would R say the disease does not appear dangerous. It was very much so.  Was he just saying that to make her happy and wasn't that risky on R's part if Alexei still might die?
But of course, if somehow Rasputin knew Alexei would not die, then it would make sense. It wasn't very often his predictions were not true. He was no charlatan.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: RichC on May 31, 2007, 09:58:01 PM


Much of Alexandra's letter to Nicholas of December 17th is about Rasputin's disappearance.  I don't see anything at all in it that would cause one to think Nicholas did not, in the main, share her feelings about Rasputin.   

I have the first publishing of the letters. The book is over eighty years old. The letter Tsarskoje, Dec. 17-th 1916 (no.404) only mentions Rasputin in a few paragraphs at the end of the letter. Eight paragraphs are completely unrelated to R.


My mistake, Charley.  Nevertheless there is nothing there that would cause one to think Nicholas did not share the Empress' feelings, in the main, about Rasputin. 

I just read the letters from Alix to Nicky. The night R was murdered and the next day, her letters talk about various subjects and even included gossip related to Anna V.  She barely mentioned him being missing until the end.  It really didn't seem to be that upsetting to her to mention it at the end as an afterthought. If she didn't want to bring it up with him right away, maybe she sensed or he even told her in private how he felt about R and therefore she was careful how she approached him in regards to the matter.

Also, Alexandra composed her letters to Nicholas over long periods of time, putting them aside for hours at a time, then taking them up again later.  She often did not compose her letters from start to finish in one single sitting.  In other words, the sections (at the beginning) where she gossips, etc., MAY have been written before she knew anything sinister was up with Rasputin.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 31, 2007, 10:00:15 PM
There are people who would seem to "precognitive" abilities.  Rasputin did seem to know things.  Like Stolypin's murder and that Nicholas should keep Russia out of the Great War.

On another thread, the last letter from Rasputin about his death, was posted to be a forgery.  The one in which he tells the Imperial Family that if one of them had killed him that they would all die within three years.  While it is quite true that they lost their throne, not everyone died within three years.

I have never seen a horse whisperer, but I have known people who seemed to "know" what was going to happen and not just in a general way either.  One prophecy (if you can call it that) was about a person who had cancer and was dying.  The woman who seemed to know said that while the cancer patient would live to see her 50th wedding anniversary (which was June 23) she would not live to see the Fourth of July.  The cancer patient died on July 3rd.

I still get shivers when I remember that.  That was not just a general "she will die soon" that was a specific time period.

Thanks for that Alixz! It is the old "chicken and egg" situation. The prediction about Stolypin's death is odd. On the other hand, his advice to Nicholas to keep Russia out of the war sounds more like common sense to me than an actual prophecy. As far as I know, he also warned Nicholas to ensure that the people had sufficient food...again, something that should have been obvious (but apparently was not). However, the Spala telegram is strange, as if he was only guessing he was taking a terrible risk, as he would have been exposed had Alexis died and probably lost all of his affluent followers. I had heard that his secretary (correct me if I'm wrong) forged the letter in which Rasputin is supposed to have told the Imperial Family that if one of them killed him they would all die within three years.

A horse whisperer does not actually predict the future, but suggests things and passes messages from the horse to humans and vice versa. With regard to the prophecy you mentioned: I wonder if that is not more in the nature of a suggestion...i.e. had the woman told the unfortunate cancer patient that she would live to see 4th. July would she have believed, clung on to life as a result, and passed away on 6th. instead of 3rd. July? Suggestion can be very strong (as proved by my encounter with the horse whisperer) and therefore I wonder if Rasputin's "skills" were not of that type?

Sorry for digressing!
Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Greenowl on June 01, 2007, 04:42:35 AM

[/quote]
Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.
[/quote]

I think that is the one prediction that is false...i.e. Rasputin never made it. It was "invented" after his death by (I think) his former secretary.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on June 01, 2007, 07:51:56 AM
Charley,

Rasputin did know the cause of Alexei's illness because he had "been there, done that" before.  When Alix telegraphed him from Spala, all she had to do was to tell him that Alexei was ill from the same problem again and he would know what it was.

The translations are up for debate because from Russian to French to English, things are not always completely translatable.  Also, eyewitnesses are notoriously inaccurate in their descriptions of a situation (I am not saying that Spiro.. was inaccurate) because even today, law enforcement will tell you they will get many many different descriptions of the same crime scene.  All from the "eyewitnesses".

It seems you are trying to make it sound as if Rasputin didn't understand the situation because he wasn't there, but he didn't need to be there.  He knew the situation and he knew how to handle Alix.  The only problem would have been, had Alexei died after the telegram, then Rasputin would have been wrong.  Not about what his illness was but about the projected outcome.

But as Martyr said, Rasputin's predictions were not often wrong.

Greenowl,  we had an electrical storm last night while I was looking for more references to Nicholas not "being a plotter", so that is why I left in a hurry. I lost one set of electronics in an electrical storm a few years ago and I wanted to shut down.

However, there is information that he "plotted" to slant the election of the third duma to get the right combination of delegates that he thought he could work with (or against as he refused to give up autocratic control). All though the word "plotted" is not what the source uses.  I will post the source later.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 01, 2007, 08:31:58 AM

Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.
[/quote]

I think that is the one prediction that is false...i.e. Rasputin never made it. It was "invented" after his death by (I think) his former secretary.
[/quote]

That was a total fabrication. Rasputin NEVER said it, it was indeed made up by his former secretary Simanovich.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Greenowl on June 01, 2007, 09:53:57 AM
Thanks for confirming that, FA. As far as I can remember, the secretary (Simanovich) wrote a book about his former employer in the early 1920s, and that is what started the myth.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 01, 2007, 04:42:52 PM
Charley,
Rasputin did know the cause of Alexei's illness because he had "been there, done that" before.  When Alix telegraphed him from Spala, all she had to do was to tell him that Alexei was ill from the same problem again and he would know what it was.
The translations are up for debate because from Russian to French to English, things are not always completely translatable.  Also, eyewitnesses are notoriously inaccurate in their descriptions of a situation (I am not saying that Spiro.. was inaccurate) because even today, law enforcement will tell you they will get many many different descriptions of the same crime scene.  All from the "eyewitnesses".
It seems you are trying to make it sound as if Rasputin didn't understand the situation because he wasn't there, but he didn't need to be there.  He knew the situation and he knew how to handle Alix.  The only problem would have been, had Alexei died after the telegram, then Rasputin would have been wrong.  Not about what his illness was but about the projected outcome.
But as Martyr said, Rasputin's predictions were not often wrong.

I am sorry, I am still having trouble with this. I guess first, does anyone have the words from the Rasputin telegram in Russian? You are right about things being translated from one language to another to another. It is sometimes like telling a child a secret and then he tells the next child and he tells the next child and the secret is now quite different. If this was the same condition as in the past with Alexei, did he tell the doctors, at that time, not to bother him much. If he did say it is not serious at Spala, and meant it, then they would have never needed him to begin with and he would have known that. And things would have gone the way they went regardless of him being there. Do you think he had other motives for being with the family?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 01, 2007, 05:06:21 PM
Belochka has the Russian version of Spiridovitch and we have already compared them a long time ago and they are exactly the same.

"The illness does not appear/seem serious. Do not let the doctors make him tired." 
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 01, 2007, 05:43:34 PM

Don't foget his final prediction, that if the nobles brought about his death, none of the tsar's family would remain alive.

I think that is the one prediction that is false...i.e. Rasputin never made it. It was "invented" after his death by (I think) his former secretary.
[/quote]

That was a total fabrication. Rasputin NEVER said it, it was indeed made up by his former secretary Simanovich.
[/quote]hi. Has it been totally proven it was false? And when, because it is still repeated in so many books as being authentic.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on June 01, 2007, 05:48:51 PM
Thank you , FA.

But the illness was serious, so serious that the court began publishing updates and getting ready to announce Alexei's death.  In an early post we read that everyone thought that Alexei was going to die and everyone knew that this time, the illness was very serious.

Yet with the translation now confirmed, Rasputin said that "the illness does not appear/seem serious."  I find that interesting because it does show what FA said before that what Alexandra and Nicholas and everyone else "believed" was what was important.  They believed Rasputin and not the doctors and they believed that the illness was not serious.

But this has nothing to do with whether or not the tsar was involved in Rasputin's death.  Certainly after the incident at Spala (and that was in 1912) the tsar would have no reason to eliminate Rasputin.  The starets had just performed a "miracle" and saved his son's life.

No matter how awful Rasputin's personal life was and no matter how badly he and Alix ran the country while Nicholas was at Stavka during the war, the man seemed to have the power of life in his hands.  Not a reason for any father to engage in plotting to kill another person.

And Martyr - you change you user name faster than I change my socks!!!!   ???  I just got an email notice that eminem had posted and I logged in to find that you are now Martyr.   :o
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 01, 2007, 07:31:54 PM
But this has nothing to do with whether or not the tsar was involved in Rasputin's death.  Certainly after the incident at Spala (and that was in 1912) the tsar would have no reason to eliminate Rasputin.  The starets had just performed a "miracle" and saved his son's life.

  The reason this discussion about Alexei came up was because an earlier post suggested Nicholas would never have been involved in the murder because he felt he needed R for his son. We were discussing it to try and come up with a conclusion on whether or not he did feel he was important enough to keep around.
  To say "he had just performed" is not really accurate because R was not killed for five more years.  Alot could have happened in that time frame. Wasn't there one of the IF's maids supposedly raped by R? I just do not believe that everything in the palace was just rosey with R around.  How could Nicholas be okay when his wife is constantly writing to him when he was at war, telling him our friend said this or our friend said you need to do this. Wasn't that highly impertinent on Rasputins part? How did the Tsar deal with impertinents? 
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 01, 2007, 08:26:25 PM
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on June 01, 2007, 11:26:51 PM
I know this is off the subject but the story about the rape being proved false.  Where was that mentioned three times?  I must not have "the proper research books".  Which book or source claims this did not take place?  You have made me curious and I would like to read up on it as I had never heard or read that story was false.  I apologize if I missed on this thread.  I try to read everything on the ones I'm interested in but sometimes miss a few posts.

Also I wish everyone would get off Charlie's case about "doing her own research".  She has made is quite clear she is a newbie.  I am as well and although I have a pretty extensive collection and have read on the subject for many years obviously I do not have the depths of "knowledge" and resources that many of you have.  Some of the out of print books cost more than a hundred dollars if you can find them, also if you live in a smaller town they libraries just don't have a huge amount on this subject.  If Charlie is like me she is on the forum to enjoy the discussion and to learn more.  Is it really necessary to be so patronizing and make fun of her? 

To Charlie, I have to admit I enjoy your threads.  They sure seem to generate interesting discussions and seem to be popular as well based on the number of hits received.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: TheAce1918 on June 02, 2007, 12:30:41 AM
Also I wish everyone would get off Charlie's case about "doing her own research".  She has made is quite clear she is a newbie.  I am as well and although I have a pretty extensive collection and have read on the subject for many years obviously I do not have the depths of "knowledge" and resources that many of you have.  Some of the out of print books cost more than a hundred dollars if you can find them, also if you live in a smaller town they libraries just don't have a huge amount on this subject.  If Charlie is like me she is on the forum to enjoy the discussion and to learn more.  Is it really necessary to be so patronizing and make fun of her? 

No one is making fun of anyone on purpose here.  But this is a site that is heralded for its facts and educational benefits.  However, I can completely understand where you are coming from in terms of resources, finances for the treasured texts that are discussed here, and the fact that we are all here to have fun and to interact in conversation.  Believe me, I felt a little out of place and thrown in the corner on certain posts in the past.  I myself can relate to being patronized.  Which in several ways and forms, have forced me to keep numerous opinions to myself.  :D
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 02, 2007, 04:28:46 AM
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


how do you want me to prove to you where I live? In fact, I don't understand why I would want to give out my private information?
Come to think of it, how am I even supposed to prove to you that I don't live near him when I don't even know where he lives?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: ChristineM on June 02, 2007, 04:52:04 AM
Its quite amazing that Charley's initial post has spawned... now seven pages.   

The Spala 'miracle' made Nicholas believe that Rasputin was capable of healing - even from a distance - his son's potentially fatal illness.   

What absolutely confirmed the Emperor's belief in Rasputin's healing powers was the 'miracle' cure of Ania Vyroubova following her near fatal (as she describes it) train crash.   Doctors believed she was beyond help until Rasputin was summoned from St Petersburg.   A dramatic improvement in her condition coinciided with the arrival of the staretz.

What human being with the sword of Damocles dangling over his child - particularly when that human being is an emperor and the child, his only son and heir - would participate in the destruction of the one force on this earth apparently capable of warding off impending death?

tsaria
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on June 02, 2007, 08:15:22 AM
I am going to digress thoroughly here - for that FA, I apologize in advance.

To Ace, Charley and anyone else who feels occasionally "out of place and thrown into a corner" - I and a few others whom I shall not name (they can do that themselves if they want) have not only been "thrown into a corner" but I have been personally attacked and my very belief foundation (the things that make me, well me) has been put in question by a couple of posters who like to "poke" people.

I complained to FA on numerous occasions to please intervene on my behalf and also on behalf of those others (who can name themselves if they chose).  I even tried to quit the forum.

But a good many truly nice posters pm'd me and told me not to quit.  They told me to stay and not to let others "get under my skin".  I even received kudos for my postings and for my positions in the form of pm's.  Some of us have thin skins (like me) and some of have much thicker skins and some here just seem to like to "stir up controversy" and then sit back and watch others squirm.

My sources have been questioned, my sources sources have been questioned, and my deductions based on these sources have been questioned.  There were days when I sat in tears trying to compose a reply to a particularly nasty and sarcastic post.  My husband and son have both told me that posting here is not worth the pain and that I should just get out.

However, I have learned a great deal here about the Romanovs and Russian history.  I have found new sources and old books that I have been lucky enough to add to my collection.  (I am lucky also to be in a position to buy some of the expensive books that others have said they can't get right now.)

I have made new friends and found new contacts who have opened new (and old) doors for me.  I have had the pleasure of actually "speaking" to the authors whose books I collect and love. 
 

I have also made a few blunders and made myself look darn right stupid when talking to a knowledgeable and lettered individual and not knowing who he was  :( Fortunately in a pm he understood and "forgave me".  8)

We are all here to learn and to exchange ideas.  The FA has a formidable job in keeping us all in line and making sure that the site remains a good place for all.  Just keeping track of the "suspended members" or "sock puppets" as he calls them must take all too much time away from his own enjoyment of the site and his own participation in the threads.

And I will now stop my ramblings and ask everyone to to please forgive me for this digression.

However, no matter how much research I keep doing, I don't see any indication that Nicholas would be involved in any way in the murder of Rasputin.  Even if he detested Rasputin personally, Nicholas loved Alexandra and Alexei.  As a loving parent myself, I can and do understand Nicholas putting up with the starets.

However, two good books to try to get your hands on are The Life and Times of Grigorii Rasputin by Alex DeJonge and The Murder of Rasputin "The truth about Prince Felix Youssoupov and the Mad Monk who helped bring down the Romanovs"  by Greg King.

Of course there are many many more sources out there including Spiridovitch who was actually there

And if you go to Amazon, you can sometimes find books at unbelievably low prices.  I just got Alexander II by Radzinsky for $0.98!!

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 02, 2007, 08:25:54 AM
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


how do you want me to prove to you where I live? In fact, I don't understand why I would want to give out my private information?
Come to think of it, how am I even supposed to prove to you that I don't live near him when I don't even know where he lives?

Easy, send me an email from a non-aol account using a non-aol access to the internet.  Since I know the area in question, and you say you don't then that gives me the answer I need without you revealing "personal" information.  Though, of course, if you truly had nothing to hide, you would have nothing to fear from revealing your personal identification to me, which of course, would remain private to me.  There are many dozens of users here, whose identity they have revealed to me privately, and not one of them has ever been "outed" to anyone else by me.

Frankly, you seem to "doth protest too much"...imo
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 02, 2007, 08:32:17 AM
I know this is off the subject but the story about the rape being proved false.  Where was that mentioned three times?  I must not have "the proper research books".  Which book or source claims this did not take place?  You have made me curious and I would like to read up on it as I had never heard or read that story was false.  I apologize if I missed on this thread.  I try to read everything on the ones I'm

General Alexander Spiridovitch: "Raspoutine" and "Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour A Tzarskoje Selo".  I have already put up the citations and quotes in several other Rasputin discussion threads.   A lot of the "research" Charley could do would be to go READ the other Rasputin threads or other related threads first, as most of the questions asked have already been answered HERE in the Forum so the access is instant and FREE.

THAT is the crux of my frustration in the forum.  People keep asking the same questions over and over without READING the other threads in the forum.  Sorry if I get cross in my frustration, but don't forget that unlike you folks, I HAVE to read every posting every day....
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: ChristineM on June 02, 2007, 09:35:39 AM
First of all - congratulations to Alixz for taking the mature, pragmatic view.   I hope others see the wisdom and follow in her footsteps.

Secondly, I heartily agree with FA.   All too often, posters are too quick to post.   They 'read' posts, but fail to pause and think about, or digest, what has been written.   As a result they simply react because, lets face it, all they are interested in is getting across their own point of view.   Its worth being mindful that others do have equally valid opinions and by reading others' posts, there is a lot to learn.   Otherwise the entire Forum will keep going round and round in circles AND   

It amazes me how this thread has managed to seep into seven pages.   Look and learn.

tsaria

PS:  Please forgive me, FA - I know I am one of the guilty ones.   I promise I will try to read and think before I write.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 02, 2007, 02:36:32 PM
I know this is off the subject but the story about the rape being proved false.  Where was that mentioned three times?  I must not have "the proper research books".  Which book or source claims this did not take place?  You have made me curious and I would like to read up on it as I had never heard or read that story was false.  I apologize if I missed on this thread.  I try to read everything on the ones I'm interested in but sometimes miss a few posts.

Also I wish everyone would get off Charlie's case about "doing her own research".  She has made is quite clear she is a newbie.  I am as well and although I have a pretty extensive collection and have read on the subject for many years obviously I do not have the depths of "knowledge" and resources that many of you have.  Some of the out of print books cost more than a hundred dollars if you can find them, also if you live in a smaller town they libraries just don't have a huge amount on this subject.  If Charlie is like me she is on the forum to enjoy the discussion and to learn more.  Is it really necessary to be so patronizing and make fun of her? 

To Charlie, I have to admit I enjoy your threads.  They sure seem to generate interesting discussions and seem to be popular as well based on the number of hits received.

No, FA means that he/she has told me three times not to ask questions. I must go and do the research myself and not ask questions here.  I assume that is what he/she meant. Why do other people get to ask questions and not me. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I just sense alot of hostility.
Yes, and I agree with Pegschalet, I would like to see the report that said it was false.  Don't say, "Charley, do your own research", because obviously, I shared my research and you say it is wrong, so now it's your turn, sister or brother. (I do not know your gender)  :)
Thanks for the support, Pegschalet, but it really doesn't bother me because, obviously, we are all bonded together, whether we like it or not, by our passion about anything related to the family. They have their strong opinions and I have mine. I think we can all respect that.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 02, 2007, 03:22:16 PM
I'm not saying don't ask questions. What I am saying is that you should READ the other threads on the subject before asking the questions. It is not hostility, its FRUSTRATION because your questions are actually answered in the other threads on the subject.

and your FA is a HE.

Rob

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on June 02, 2007, 06:06:10 PM
Nicholas would be to gentle to do that, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on June 02, 2007, 06:21:07 PM
I only want to point out one more thing.

There are currently 8,392 topics and 253,417 posts about these topics on the AP Discussion Board.

I think that we all try to read and to find the answers before we ask questions, but that is one heck of a lot of ground to cover and while we are doing all that reading the numbers just keep growing.

I understand the frustration but I also understand the desire to just jump in and start a new thread and to just ask.

However, since this forum is used by educational groups (and I think that sometimes we forget that in our desire to prove ourselves right) we have to be careful what we post and how stubborn we get about our point of view.

That is why I and everyone else gets pounded about sources.  There are threads for "what if" speculation and also an "Alien Abduction" thread (which has now gone down and I miss it because it was so much fun ;D).  So when someone can't post a reliable source for what they have posed, then the whole world gets to take a look at the subject and may get the wrong idea.

Still, I know that as the years go by and more information is released from GARF that older books have become obsolete and stories like the "rape of the nursery maid" and the "prophecy of the collapse of the Russian aristocracy" which were believed in the past have now been proven to be false.

Sometimes it is hard to keep up with the new information and the changes that have taken place.  Heck, when I first read Guy Richards The Hunt for the Czar back in the1970s, I wanted it to be true.  But, of course, it isn't.

So we just have to keep on "keepin' on".  

FaithWhiteRose - I tend to agree with you.  I have never read anything anywhere that points to Nicholas being in any way involved in the death of Rasputin.  The only thing I said before is that he might have said something in an off hand way that someone like Dimitri or Felix or Zenaide misunderstood.  They may have thought they knew the intention behind his words, but just interpreted them incorrectly.  And that is just MHO!   :D

Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Greenowl on June 02, 2007, 06:23:44 PM
Hello Alixz!
When you have time I would be really interested to hear about how Nicholas "plotted" to slant the election of the third Duma to get the right combination of delegates that he thought he could work with (or against). Maybe we should start a new thread on the subject (in order to avoid digressing, as this seems to have little to do with the subject under discussion here)??

I understand about storms....our house was struck (a direct hit!!) in July 2005....the two computers, a DVD player and a radio alarm clock were badly damaged...it was not a pleasant experience.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on June 02, 2007, 06:31:57 PM
Greenowl - you are absolutely right.  We should begin another thread about this subject.

But to continue what I was posting when I had to leave quickly - from The Court of the Last Tsar by Greg King.  page 44 -

"In 1907, in anticipation of the Third Duma, the emperor illegally altered the voting laws, to narrow the chances of socialists winning seats."

And then there is " both the First and Second Dumas were closed on Nicholas's orders and their deputies put into the street when they insisted on launching investigations into government sponsored pogroms."  Also on page 44.

So I will do some more looking and see if I can find any other signs of "plotting" and then we can start a new thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on June 02, 2007, 07:00:45 PM
General Alexander Spiridovitch: "Raspoutine" and "Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour A Tzarskoje Selo. 


I'm not trying to be a pain.  I'm guessing these are two books by Spiridovitch which are in French.  Are there English translations available?  Or can you just refer me to the thread or posting?  I'm very interested in reading more on this subject.

I don't know if this should be a new thread or not.  Most of the books I have are old or reference some of the original books,  Lili Dehn, Sophie B, Anna V. written in the 20's.  Someone mentioned newer sources in this thread.  I would love to see a list.  Maybe a thread in the beginning of the Forum called "Recommended Reading".  I have been purchasing new books as they come out, "Fate of the Romanovs , The Camera and the Tsars, etc to keep current.

Again this is a question, not an attack.  What makes Spiridovitch a more reliable source?  Obviously there is a reason for this.  Again maybe a section by the FA or the other experts rating the different sources.  Some are easy to figure out like "Rescue of the Romanovs" which time and DNA has debunked but other are more difficult.  Edvard Radzinsky's books appeared very well researched to me with an extensive bibliography but I seen threads questioning his reliability.  So how are we to know?  Who do we rely on the published author who I hope was veted in some way or the poster who states that source has errors?   

I feel empathy towards the FA for feeling frustrated having to read every post.  Maybe you could rotate with somebody or have someone take a month at a time.  As someone else said there are over 200,000 posts on this site.  I know I'm not going to read everyone. 
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 02, 2007, 07:41:49 PM
I'm not saying don't ask questions. What I am saying is that you should READ the other threads on the subject before asking the questions. It is not hostility, its FRUSTRATION because your questions are actually answered in the other threads on the subject.
and your FA is a HE.
Rob
Hi Rob,
 Thanks for clarifying that you are a guy. I understand your frustration about new people who do not read every and all the threads. I honestly looked on the search engine and could not find anything talking about the Tsar maybe involved in Rasputins death. I wondered about it after reading some sources, I just got a sense that things were different than they appeared in writing. Okay, I am a Newbie and I have thought about something. I come to this website and do I really need to read through every thread to find an anwer. I pity you that you have to, because I would not enjoy this site if I had to. I hope they pay you well. So, is the search engine reliable? Any suggestions other than reading every single post?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 02, 2007, 08:04:32 PM
 I just want people to think about what I am saying and not run out and say, no this is impossible.
The Tsars family are all totally against R.  Nicholas does not even mention him in his letters to his mother. (Secret Letters of the Tsar). They believe R is devastating the monarchy. Nicholas believes his family is trying to dethrone him. (As mentioned in Minnie's letter to him.) A very good justification for the Tsar to call for R's death would be to save face with his family and protect his throne. As far as I can see, the main reason the family was turning on Nicky was because of Rasputin.  Can you imagine the enormous stress this poor man must have been under, failing war, revolution, family on your back. I am in no way saying that Nicholas was a mass murderer and chopped R to pieces. The original plan to kill R was actually very humane. He would have some wine, fall asleep, and never wake up.  Poor threesome, everything fell apart. The big plan did not work the way it was supposed to, they panicked and it ended not so humanely.  That was not the plan, though.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on June 02, 2007, 08:20:27 PM
Okay, I finally found the sources I had read on the rape.  In two different books, "A Lifelong Passion, Nicholas and Alexandra Their Own Story", and "The Rasputin File" by Radzinsky it is mentioned.  Both books refer to The Provisional Government's Extraordinary Commision of Enquiry, Petrograd 1917.  The commision interviewed the nanny Vishniakova, who in her own words stated she was raped.  She then told the Maid of Honor, S. I. Tiutcheva who then informed the Empress.  The Empress said she did not believe the story and forebade her to tell the Emperor.

I'm sorry I can't quote the sources from the top of my head or I would have brought this up earlier.  The reason Charlie mentioned this rape as regards this thread is.  "the Empress forebade her to tell the Emperor."  I think her point was if the Tsar was 100% on board with Rasputin why would Alix worry about Tiutcheva telling him.  If she was sure he felt that way she would not have worried knowing he would immediately discount the story.  What I found interesting as Radzinsky's book states, the Tsar told Tiutcheva that he did not believe her story but it seems to me he took actions after that which kept Rasputin from the children's wing.  I find that odd when he said he did not believe her story, obviously it caused some doubts for him.

In addition, both of the Tsar's sisters mention this incident in their diaries.  Xenia, received the story from S. D. Samarina, Alix's Lady-in-waiting.  It makes sense to me because in a situation like this women talk.  A servant would certainly talk to a trusted Lady-in-waiting asking advice especially with her concern for the children.  After her talk with the Empress, I could see Tiutcheva asking Samarins to speak with Xenia.  My interpretation was this wasn't ideal gossip but genuine concern for the safety of the children.

I guess this goes back to the question of sources.  Which one is more credible and why?  I prefer to read the diaries and the words of the people these events happened to rather than another book or person's view of what they experienced.  
"A Lifelong Passion" is one of my favorite books because of the diaries and sources it uses.  It is so interesting reading two or three sources view of the same event.  Also one of the authors, Sergei Mironenko is the Director of the State Archive of the Russian Federation.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on June 02, 2007, 08:27:41 PM
oops!  After the Empress told Tiutcheve not to talk to the Emperor, she received a summons to speak to him.  She did not speak to him on her own but at the request of the Tsar.

My dang spelling, it idle gossip not ideal gossip.  I need to proof better.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on June 03, 2007, 05:27:53 PM
I want to mention that I have been to the AP bookfinder which is a great resource.  Since I've been on the Forum, it seems like there is a special list of sources and only these are considered valid.  All others are inaccurate, debunked, not worth the paper printed on etc.  I would like to know what they are so I can read them for myself.  I plan to start another thread on this subject under Books as I know this thread is not the proper place for this discussion.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: ChristineM on June 04, 2007, 07:09:59 AM
I fail to understand how the subject of this thread remains active.

It is not the issues surrounding the murder of Grigory Efimovich which require examination - it is the character of Emperor Nicholas II.   Even an elementary understanding of the psyche of the man is sufficient to obviate any answer to this question.

Having said that, records appear to indicate that Nicholas was not altogether saddened to learn of the death of Rasputin.   However, this reference to the Tsar's reaction was no more than an objective observation.   How Nicholas really felt, nobody knows.

The only possibility could have been a Thomas Becket scenario, as already suggested.   However, there is no evidence to support this.

tsaria   
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 04, 2007, 04:30:02 PM
Actually,
Nicholas BELIEVED the illness was serious... he believed that Alexei would die, as did the doctors and all others present, THAT is the point of the Spala incident. Contrary to what they saw and what the best doctors available SAID, Rasputin told them "the illness does not seem serious, dont let the doctors make him tired." and then, Alexei gets better...

The story of one of the maids being raped is one of the tales included in the report to Nicholas that was proven to be a lie. Charley, for  Pete's SAKE start doing your own research, this is getting tiresome....we've discussed this three times before already.

oh, and Caleb Granger (yes I remain convinced its you until you provide me with some communication proving you ARE NOT in his geographic area) yes, its proven as false. There is not ONE single documented reference of the alleged prediction until AFTER Simanovitch published his virtually (and sadly) useless book.


how do you want me to prove to you where I live? In fact, I don't understand why I would want to give out my private information?
Come to think of it, how am I even supposed to prove to you that I don't live near him when I don't even know where he lives?

Easy, send me an email from a non-aol account using a non-aol access to the internet.  Since I know the area in question, and you say you don't then that gives me the answer I need without you revealing "personal" information.  Though, of course, if you truly had nothing to hide, you would have nothing to fear from revealing your personal identification to me, which of course, would remain private to me.  There are many dozens of users here, whose identity they have revealed to me privately, and not one of them has ever been "outed" to anyone else by me.

Frankly, you seem to "doth protest too much"...imo
What I'm saying is that by going out of my way to make a new email account, get a new internet service so that you can have my private information, how am I to know you won't hack into my computer? Are any other users required to not use AOL? It dosen't make any sense. AOL is what I pay for, why would I not use it?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 04, 2007, 04:54:36 PM
Because I already know that you use the AOL servers for "bring your own" access, and not the aol dial up servers.  I know which bands are for which. Also, don't be RIDICULOUS to think that I could, would, or would even WANT to hack into your computer. How ludicrously paranoid. To be blunt, you don't sound, behave, write or act like a mother of a child as you claim.  But you DO write, sound, behave and act like Caleb Granger and his many alias names.

If you prove yourself NOT to be that person, I will gladly and immediately issue you a public apology. Again, methinks she doth protest too much. Any other time I've had this problem, the individuals who were "legit" understood my need to protect the integrity of the Forum and gladly and willingly assisted me, while you?? well.....that alone give me reason.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 04, 2007, 07:35:23 PM
I fail to understand how the subject of this thread remains active.
It is not the issues surrounding the murder of Grigory Efimovich which require examination - it is the character of Emperor Nicholas II.   Even an elementary understanding of the psyche of the man is sufficient to obviate any answer to this question.
 
First of all, people are interested in any and all aspects of the life of the IF. We want to think about them as real people, not storybook characters. I am interested in this and apparently a few others are.
I think Nicholas was a very complex man. I think it takes alot more than an "elementary understanding" to even begin to delve into the pysche of this great man.
He told his family, "I do not permit anyone to give me advice." He didn't preface it with, "aside from Father Gregori." Did he mean it or not?
Also, did the comment, "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" only refer to King Henry or is there a record of the Tsar ever saying those words or similar?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 04, 2007, 08:10:26 PM
Bob has made his position clear and without argument. Should "Martyr" Caleb Granger refuse to provide some outside confirmation to prove you are NOT Caleb Granger, be it a phone number, valid non aol email or whatever, your account will be deleted. This is not subject to debate. per Bob.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on June 04, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
Nikolai II had absolutely nothing to do with the instigation nor can he be accused of contributing in any way to the cold blooded murder of Rasputin.

This very idea is preposterous!

Margarita  :o
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Pegschalet on June 04, 2007, 10:26:05 PM
There are alot of sources which discuss the night Rasputin died but the one source we don't have is Dmitri's account(as far as I know).  I always wondered if there was more to this story because he never spoke of it and he had the falling out with Felix.  It just seems like there is a piece missing here.  Not necessarily the Tsar's involvement but more to the story.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Forum Admin on June 05, 2007, 08:43:04 AM
There are many pieces missing, and Felix's account is nearly useless for any accurate information. Please see the thread "Rasputin's Murder", where Richard Cullen shares his extraordinary forensic analysis of the murder itself, which is wholly at odds with the Yussupov and Pourishkevich accounts.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1365.0.html
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 05, 2007, 10:31:22 AM
There are alot of sources which discuss the night Rasputin died but the one source we don't have is Dmitri's account(as far as I know).  I always wondered if there was more to this story because he never spoke of it and he had the falling out with Felix.  It just seems like there is a piece missing here.  Not necessarily the Tsar's involvement but more to the story.

 If the Tsar was involved and Dmitri was the only one who knew, he would certainly not talk about it. He would let everyone say what they wanted. This would actually be a good thing because the focus would be taken off even the idea that Nicholas may have been involved. 
Thanks FA for the other thread, I will go check it out.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: vladm on June 06, 2007, 05:05:31 PM
FA this is becoming long strange conversation, could you please lock this thread, and conclude this subject
thanks
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on June 06, 2007, 06:28:42 PM
FA this is becoming long strange conversation, could you please lock this thread, and conclude this subject
thanks

I agree!   >:(

Margarita
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: TheAce1918 on June 06, 2007, 07:04:30 PM
I agree.  Its going no where, and it appears that it has wound up to be a moral fight between the site admin's and the rebel users.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 08, 2007, 12:08:19 AM
I agree.  Its going no where, and it appears that it has wound up to be a moral fight between the site admin's and the rebel users.

Yes, I guess you would be refering to me the "rebel." Except I am not in some big fight.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Rebel- a person who refuses allegiance to.

I only give my allegiance to God and my country. FA, if people are hounding you to shut down this thread, I understand and will not be offended. I have other things that I have come across that I have not seen on this website that I would like to discuss later. I was going to leave the website, after some mean comments, but I find that I have really enjoyed discussing various ideas with some people.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: ChristineM on June 08, 2007, 07:16:40 AM
............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Page 9 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: charley on June 08, 2007, 11:55:33 AM
Page 9 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What?
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 17, 2007, 02:48:39 AM
Because I already know that you use the AOL servers for "bring your own" access, and not the aol dial up servers.  I know which bands are for which. Also, don't be RIDICULOUS to think that I could, would, or would even WANT to hack into your computer. How ludicrously paranoid. To be blunt, you don't sound, behave, write or act like a mother of a child as you claim.  But you DO write, sound, behave and act like Caleb Granger and his many alias names.

If you prove yourself NOT to be that person, I will gladly and immediately issue you a public apology. Again, methinks she doth protest too much. Any other time I've had this problem, the individuals who were "legit" understood my need to protect the integrity of the Forum and gladly and willingly assisted me, while you?? well.....that alone give me reason.

How in what way would I not know you would hack into my computer? I don't know you, don't know who you are. I don't care who I act like. I'm myself, a woman of in her 40's. Do you do this to other AOL users? I think not.
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: ChristineM on June 17, 2007, 02:20:50 PM
Last time I looked at this post, 'Bob-the-Builder' was a 'martyr'.   Better to stick to bricks and 'mortar'.

tsaria
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Belochka on June 17, 2007, 07:24:30 PM
Last time I looked at this post, 'Bob-the-Builder' was a 'martyr'.   Better to stick to bricks and 'mortar'.

tsaria

It is better that it remains a vacant site. Just like this highly offensive question.

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Alixz on June 17, 2007, 11:11:29 PM
I still have not figured out why we are up to nine pages about this subject.   ???

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, but this is one dead horse that some posters just won't stop beating.  :-\
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Colm on November 28, 2007, 02:50:21 PM
It was quite the opposite the influence that Rasputin had over the Tsar and women in general for that matter, was the cause of his death by British inteligence officers by the names of John Scale and Oswald Rayner, to prevent him from having a say regards a ceasefire with Russia and Germany and preventing the release of nearly 400,000 troops from the Easstern front to the Western front
Title: Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
Post by: Halinka on June 19, 2008, 09:47:06 AM
I admit the Tsar favor in Rasputin was weakening when WW1 broke out. When Rasputin telling the Tsars he should not enter war but to the Tsar this man seems to be the only one helping his only son and calming his wife. He proably had some expectational that people were after Rasputin life, nearly all the Romanov lives were.